[Flipside]

Damn, I keep forgetting to beam people

You know, isn't it time that plasma core went in for it's 10,000 light year service?

Seriously though, no, no offence taken whatsoever, it's not you asking for requests that irritates me, it's knowing that people want to play this awesome game and not being able to atm because it is a work in progress, and that makes me feel bad because it might put them off

[taylor]

I don't know how popular this idea will be with everyone but what about a multi-only build.  What I'm thinking is no jpg or tga support, OpenGL only since it can still support bitmap sections for Voodoo cards, no HTL, no DirectX for graphics or image handling.  The build would default to multiplayer and give a "feature disabled" message if you tried to go single player.  It would support all of the networking stuff, mods (assuming they provide PCX versions of all graphics), and all of the new sexps.  Alt+Enter would switch between window and fullscreen and the game wouldn't pause or minimize when focus is lost so you could leave it running in a window in the background and still watch what's going on.

I just realized last night that my source tree has most of that in it already.  It can build without HTL, with OpenGL only, without jpg or tga support and with voodoo support.  I've also got a "feature disabled in this build" popup since it can build as a single player only version.  It should only take a few hours to make the few needed changes and the same code would work on Windows, Linux and OSX.  Memory requirements would drop at least 45% and maybe as much as 55-60%.  Would this be acceptable?

[Flipside]

Maybe you could provide that alongside the full SCP as a 'Multi-Lite' build for slower multiplay computers. So people download the whole pack and can choose which Freespace they want from the launcher?

[Singh]

Originally posted by taylor
I don't know how popular this idea will be with everyone but what about a multi-only build.  What I'm thinking is no jpg or tga support, OpenGL only since it can still support bitmap sections for Voodoo cards, no HTL, no DirectX for graphics or image handling.  The build would default to multiplayer and give a "feature disabled" message if you tried to go single player.  It would support all of the networking stuff, mods (assuming they provide PCX versions of all graphics), and all of the new sexps.  Alt+Enter would switch between window and fullscreen and the game wouldn't pause or minimize when focus is lost so you could leave it running in a window in the background and still watch what's going on.

I just realized last night that my source tree has most of that in it already.  It can build without HTL, with OpenGL only, without jpg or tga support and with voodoo support.  I've also got a "feature disabled in this build" popup since it can build as a single player only version.  It should only take a few hours to make the few needed changes and the same code would work on Windows, Linux and OSX.  Memory requirements would drop at least 45% and maybe as much as 55-60%.  Would this be acceptable?

Sorry, but OGL only isn't a good idea, especially considering how buggy that is (it ruined my drivers last time I tried to run it O_o)
Everything else looks sweet though

[Flipside]

Singh, OGL should be up and running again in a week or two with any luck

[Singh]

Originally posted by Flipside
Singh, OGL should be up and running again in a week or two with any luck

Thats what you say
This GeForce 2 simply ruins OGL. It cannot run it, not in FS2, not even in GMax, so I guess i'll be missing out on a lot of ass-kicking either way...:/

[taylor]

Originally posted by Flipside
Maybe you could provide that alongside the full SCP as a 'Multi-Lite' build for slower multiplay computers. So people download the whole pack and can choose which Freespace they want from the launcher?

Yeah that's what I mean.  I will just be a lightweight multi-only build that works along side of the full SCP version.  Just open it in the Launcher and run it.  It would use the same data files and everything but just be less memory, slower CPU and older videocard friendly.  Both builds could be installed with future installers.  All of the same commandline options will work but it would just silently ignore anything that it doesn't support.

Originally posted by Singh
Sorry, but OGL only isn't a good idea, especially considering how buggy that is

Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better.  If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them.  OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment.  The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code.  OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like.  OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back.  All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend.  And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D.  There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.

[Singh]

Originally posted by taylor

Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better.  If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them.  OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment.  The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code.  OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like.  OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back.  All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend.  And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D.  There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.

hmm..which means I ought to give it a try again. Just very scared that once I install OGL, I wont be able to play again due to driver problems (what happened last time). Nevertheless, I trust what you guys are doing!

[Flipside]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.. Isn't there some open-source OpenGL drivers or something that work better on some cards, I'm sure I had to use something like that on my Voodoo Banshee to play Homeworld?

[Singh]

maybe I spoke too soon. It didn't crash my PC at all, and moved quite fast initially, but then this resulted from the main hall. This was using the new 07/20 build with the following command lines:

G:\FreeSpace2\fs2_open_C07202004.exe -spec -nomotiondebris -snd_preload -d3d_no_vsync -mpnoreturn -dnoshowvid  -ambient_factor 75

[Flipside]

LOL I like the 'Press F1 for help' at the top

[taylor]

Ok, so there's like one problem left

That's a little worse than what I was able to replicate but it should be the same problem.  I know what and where that problem is though so I'll update CVS after I get an hour or two of sleep.  WMCoolmon apparently loves releasing new builds so I'll save that honor for him.  If you are willing to try a build that doesn't have WMCoolmon's changes though PM me and I'll get you a link to try and make sure that it's fixed for you.

[KARMA]

Originally posted by taylor

Yeah that's what I mean.  I will just be a lightweight multi-only build that works along side of the full SCP version.  Just open it in the Launcher and run it.  It would use the same data files and everything but just be less memory, slower CPU and older videocard friendly.  Both builds could be installed with future installers.  All of the same commandline options will work but it would just silently ignore anything that it doesn't support.


Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better.  If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them.  OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment.  The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code.  OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like.  OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back.  All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend.  And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D.  There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.

I thought that in OGL the support for voodoo2-3 was scratched many times ago.
BTW here are few questions [maybe stupid]:

you said compatible with mods as long as they use pcx. Ok, fine, but what about textures size and pcounts? the engine will rescale the textures? and will be in the non htl the same pof limits of the HTL(25k triangles, etc) and the same z-buffer?

Once you make it compatible with mods, why don't make it run the single too, with all the features/non original vpfiles disabled? It could be useful  for fast model tests and it'll be vital for people like Cetanu who'll need it to test their missions. Or would be there other problems I'm not aware of?

Maybe an HTL-lite version would be useful too?
it *should* work many times faster than the non htl even for those who own a non htl gpu (it did when HTL it was implemented at least), only vodoo owners won't be able to benefit of it. Basically it should be a simple launcher button to disable all the additional graphic effects and all the new artwork.

[tom]

I never intended to attack the developers of FSOpen. I apologize if it sounded like an attack. I've great respect for the much time and work, put into this project to keep FS2 alive.
But what I said is just my opinion/criticism.

@ taylor:
I know, that means much extra work, but it would be great if you could create a build which supports configurations with voodoos :-)

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by taylor
Ok, so there's like one problem left

That's a little worse than what I was able to replicate but it should be the same problem.  I know what and where that problem is though so I'll update CVS after I get an hour or two of sleep.  WMCoolmon apparently loves releasing new builds so I'll save that honor for him.  If you are willing to try a build that doesn't have WMCoolmon's changes though PM me and I'll get you a link to try and make sure that it's fixed for you.

I will test it - about what OpenGL Nr. are we talking here ? I think 1.2 most 3dfx drivers can do, haven't found one for OpenGL 2 yet... maybe provide a link to that too?

I'm really willing to try an OpenGL version if I can't get a directx! I WANT TO PLAY!

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by KARMA

Once you make it compatible with mods, why don't make it run the single too, with all the features/non original vpfiles disabled? It could be useful  for fast model tests and it'll be vital for people like Cetanu who'll need it to test their missions. Or would be there other problems I'm not aware of?

Well, I usually tested my missions in a multiplayer setup anyway - just hosted as a LAN game, if I didn't think it was already good enough for a testing with more pilots, etc
so... I would have no problem with singleplayer disabled - ok, can't see all the other mods (I liked the TBP racing...) but better suffer a bit then be excluded totally, no?

[kasperl]

Taylor: If that would work with all the FSO stuff, it'd be great. If there is any way you could also make an HTNL build, or an HTNL command line, it'd be even greater.

[taylor]

Trying to cover everything at once here:

Making the build disable with HTL will make sure it works on older OpenGL drivers that don't support it.  I don't care one way or the other whether it's built in or not and the command line to disable is still there if it's built in.  What I don't want though is 4 or 5 builds that do basically the same thing but with parts not included.  That's really going to make things tough to maintain.  I have no plans to make a multi-only version and a single-multi version plus HTL and non-HTL versions of each.  There should only be one lite version so everyone will have to decide what's more important.  I alreay have to divide my time between the basic game, the Linux version, the Windows version, the OSX version, and the icculus.org version since I'm main person still working on it.

Being multi-only was just an idea to keep things simple but there is no reason it can't be single and multi.  For those that would need this build you don't want to use the high-poly models.  That defeats the point because it's going to slow down again and be unplayable.

Only D3D support for voodoo2/3 was scratched, it still remains as a build option for OpenGL and could be made into a commandline option.  A build that supports both OpenGL and DirectX isn't impossible but you may have to wait a few months for that to happen.  The OpenGL solution is ready now.  If everyone can wait then I'm sure we'll come up with a better long term solution.  Personally I'd rather that we just wait and do it right the first time.  There are other ideas floating around about how to correctly do a SCP Lite.

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by taylor
The OpenGL solution is ready now.

Where?

[taylor]

Originally posted by Cetanu
Where?

In testing.  I'll post a link later tonight.