[Bobboau]

with the comeing of PCS 2 and it getting mentioned in another thread prompting me to think about it I'm starting up a discusion on the interface, this being (IMHO) PCS 1's biggest shortcomeing.

first, I think for everything there should be a common list element selector type (it would be nice if some sort of templated controle could be made) I am attaching a picture of a slightly altered Aurora selection controle, it alows you to select an item in a list, displays the name and number of the item currently selected, allows you to create a new item, delete an old one, or (my personal favorite and a _MAJOR_ time saver) copy an exsisting item. other jobs that could be placed here would be incerting before/after the current item, moveing the current item to a position on the list, and 'import from other pof'.
/*programming note: this means that every data type that has an array in it will likely need to be derived from some sort of item_list object to make the programming of this sort of controle easier, this would also make things like ray picking and all other common 'do this to this item' jobs precisely one hell of a lot easier as well*/

if it could be posable an undo/redo option would be magical, though this would probly require a string of pof objects and might not be the greatest memory saver.

it would be nice if PCS 2 could have a much more graphical editing ability. how I think the PCS2 graphical editor should work would be like this.
in one of the upper corners of the render window (or near one of the upper corners outside of it) there will be an axis selection box it'll have x,y,and z, there will also be a movement type box that will consist of global, local, and camera these refer to the three major coordanant systems and will alow easy movement of any item (it's also very similar to how truespace works)
what ever item you have selected when you move the mouse with the left button down and the controle key pressed it would move along the two axes you have selected, if you have the right button down insted it will move along the one axis you don't have selected, in global space it will move relitive to the global center of the whole model, if you select local it will move relitive to the orientation of the currently selected item (along a plane normal to to it, this won't be aplicable to all items), and lastly camera will move along your screen (or into it with the right button).
you should be able to use a ray picking system to select items (yes Kaz I am also working on this with you, I know how to do this, it's actualy _quite_ easy) from the render window, if hotkeys are assigned for new, copy, and delete, it should be posable to fully edit a model from only the render window other than maybe going back to the main window to change data types.

selection of what data types are veiwable should be available via the view menue, though the currently selected data type should always be rendered.

user options on the color of each displayed data type for unselected-not on list, unselected-on list (items that are not selected but on the same list as the selected item) and, selected items

there should be a full text mode, (this would be similar to PCS without the render window), mixed mode, (this would be similar to model view with a render window comeing off the side of the text based editor), and full graphics mode ((posably with full screen options) were no texted based editor would be seen at all (allowing maximum veiwability of the model))

[Taristin]

Sounds Ok to me. But I'd rather not have a UV editter in it. Perhaps it's just me, but I prefer to do my mapping in Max.

[Bobboau]

so if after hours and hours of work your just about done then you see one small poly that you mis-mapped "oh no! now I have to open it up in *incert modeling environment of choice* load the model open it'uv editor fix the small error (four seconds of work) save it recompile import the data from the old model and save" or open PCS2's u editor and fix it there, also useful for if you want to change something in the map but can't be assed to recompile, or if you lose the origonal file. it's a time saver.

[Liberator]

Let me sit with paint a few minutes and see what i can come up with.  I like to think that I can design decent user-friendly GUIs.

*updated*

[Trivial Psychic]

*salivats at the thought of PCS2 and its many possibilities*

I would request that is support multiple map formats (pcx, jpg, tga, dds), perhaps allow glow and/or spec maps to be viewed as well, and be a little more intelligent when trying to find the maps.  In PCS, when I run it from WinXP (off the Win98SE E:\ partition) it can't find the textures, but Modview can (if there in the FS VPs).  However, if I reboot into Win98SE (which then thinks its C:\), PCS can find the textures no problem.  Furthermore, could you ensure that if no model is loaded when the program is started, that the "save file" option is greyed out.  I recently lost of work on a model when I mistakenly chose this option when trying to open a model, and ended up replacing a 2.2MB model with a 160 byte file of nothing.  All of that said, I do find PCS more stable and feature-filled than ModView, which is prone to crashing on me when I try to save stuff.

Later!

[Edit]
Oops!  I appologize for including this, as I now recall this is for INTERFACE DISCUSSION ONLY, and some of my requests delve into other areas.
[/Edit]

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Raa
Sounds Ok to me. But I'd rather not have a UV editter in it. Perhaps it's just me, but I prefer to do my mapping in Max.

Originally posted by Bobboau
so if after hours and hours of work your just about done then you see one small poly that you mis-mapped "oh no! now I have to open it up in *incert modeling environment of choice* load the model open it'uv editor fix the small error (four seconds of work) save it recompile import the data from the old model and save" or open PCS2's u editor and fix it there, also useful for if you want to change something in the map but can't be assed to recompile, or if you lose the origonal file. it's a time saver.

With the 3ds->pof plugin you don't need to use PCS atall (unless there's an MOI editor added....), so I'm not sure what this here arguement is even about.

[Roanoke]

So long as there is a decent tut as per "learn to use PCS" I think any interface would be fine. So long as it is logical ofcourse

[Taristin]

Originally posted by aldo_14




With the 3ds->pof plugin you don't need to use PCS atall (unless there's an MOI editor added....), so I'm not sure what this here arguement is even about.

Well, that, and the fact that PCS had a handy 'import pof data from another mesh' feature, which I'd use.

I'd finish the mesh currently, go back, fix the problem I had originally, convert it again, and then import the remaining data back into the mesh. Voila.

[aldo_14]

But what I mean is, your max scene should already have all the pof data in it via your dummy objects, etc.

[Kazan]

generally if you're going to start these discussions make sure i'm where i can participate in them

i've posting from a 56K modem at my inlaws - i should be back in iowa tommorow night if all goes well -- by then i'll gave a screenshot to feed you hungry dogs

[Kazan]

RE: from VPCS2 thread

Originally posted by Bobboau
"UV editor"
this BTW is what utterly killed the last version of Aurora

?????

we need to have a talk about the interface of PCS2 sometime.

Once I get back to iowa

oh and is it too late in the game to ask that it might be multi-pof (ie load up multable pofs, edit and move data between them)

no... but lemme ask: what is the point ( loading multple files remains trivial at this point - since i haven't started writing any of the editor panels)

and the idea is to be able to recompile a model (it would have to if it was going to edit geometry) right?

it's internal editing format is not pof, unlike PCS1 - it's internal format is PMF (PCS Model Format) - when you select and Open/Save of a different file type it converts-on-demand

i will keep it coded in an inspecific manner so that if you convince me to have multiple file support it'll remain trivial to implement


so when you "Save as 'something.pof'" it runs the conversion right then and there, same thing with "Open 'x.cob'" it runs the conversion right then and there (which means the cob->pof autodata features are becoming cob->PMF features)

so saving in a totaly new POF format wouldn't be a prolbem.

supporting new formats is merely a task of writing another "PCS_Model::LoadFrom[type](std::string &filename"/"PCS_Model::SaveTo[type](std::string &filename" pair


This is probably the last time im going to be on the forums today

[Unknown Target]

Kazan, could you please add support for Milkshape 3D files?

[Taristin]

Originally posted by aldo_14
But what I mean is, your max scene should already have all the pof data in it via your dummy objects, etc.

Yes, but the damned plugin doesn't work all that well. I have a 20% success rate with it. And that's optimistic.

[Nuke]

wishlist:

one feature id like is automatic cooranate scaling. so that i can imput cooranants directly from the modeling program and have them automaticly scaled depending on the conversion scaling factor.  maybe something that compensates for truspace's screwy x,y,z order.

i like the spredsheet style data entry idea id like to be able to drag drop cornanants so i could easily convert a primary weapon points to secondary weapon points, chane the order of gunpoints, or convert engine points to glow points, ect. a left click drag and drop would move a set of coords while a right click dragdrop woud copy.

a wysiwyg turret debuger. something that lets you select through the turrets, and test their ability to elevate and rotate,  so that you can make sure that the right parts are moving in the right way.

a wysiwyg animation script editor for future support of bobs wip animation code. so that you can set up the animation and export the proper table entries for the animation.

idealy id perfer a one click you done interface (like frelancer's model converter) where all points in the model are autogenerated on compile based on named objects (polygonal or otherwise) in the original unconverted model file. relying on the modeling program to enter all model information. this would make interim model versions really easy. a model gets converted many times before it can be considered done. and the option to set everything in the model program would save modders of time.

[Sandwich]

I hate to be all efficiency-oriented and all, but seriously: why not just ask Styxx for the code to his MAX2POF converter, fix the known bugs, and continue enhancing it until it reaches the stage where you can export a 100% usable POF directly from MAX, including all the bells and whistles?

Or, since there are obvious advantages to having a seperate POF editor (eg. for Lightwave users), ask Heiko Hermann to open up MODELVIEW32's source code - that has amazing potential to be all you'd ever need in a POF editor, especially since the graphical side of it is implemented and familiar to everyone.

And if neither of those options will work, then I suggest modeling the interface off a familiar example to nearly everyone - your bog-standard email client, where each "message" is actually a POF setting that can be modified, message folders are categories of settings, and the "Message Preview Pane" could be the live 3d view of the model.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Or, since there are obvious advantages to having a seperate POF editor (eg. for Lightwave users), ask Heiko Hermann to open up MODELVIEW32's source code - that has amazing potential to be all you'd ever need in a POF editor, especially since the graphical side of it is implemented and familiar to everyone.

He has released the ModelView source code.  But everybody wants to develop his own tool.

ModelView only needs one or two more things done to it and it'll be a fully-featured POF editor.  It also shouldn't be a large step to add in the auto-pathing, etc.

Heck, I might try it myself one of these days.

[KARMA]

mmm wasn't it just a...plugin? I mean, designed to be used inside max.

But yes, I think you guys should spend some time in adding support for some formats, like lwo or 3ds, althought you aren't confident with those file specifics.
I really think that it'd be the best way to gain some fresh meat....

Persona wishlist (sorry but I'm very shorttime):

shadings: I'd like pcs-2 to be able to use smoothshadings too, and I'd like someone to fix the "faceted" problem happening when using autofacet and in game specular effects. Don't know if it has been fixed recently but I know that it wasn't happening with Styxx's converter.

hierachy editor: ability to edit the hierachy (at the cost of reconverting to pof). This could also mean to import external models inside an existing pof, and, why not, to move/rotate them.
This could be useful for adding turretts or for those who don't use 3ds or TS and don't want to: you could save to 3ds or cob, convert to pof without all the autogen features, set the hierachy  inside the pof editor.

[Unknown Target]

You know what would be a great format? .OBJ. It's pretty standard, I think.

[Kazan]

don't ask for new file formats until im done bringing PCS2 up to the same capabilities of PCS1

*grumbles about not being able to put buttons into cells on a grid*

[stithe2000]

Must haves for upcoming PCS2:
1) All importing options that was in the last release of PCS.
2) Aurora's auto path option.
3) Model Scale (measured in meters like in modview32)
4) Model rendering screen in all formats that FS2_open supports
5) In render show all. Such as thrusters glow points, etc. This will help with modellers getting the effects, and details right on the model more effienctly.
Wish list:
1) An error box, so that if there is a model fault the modeller can locate and correct a bit faster.
2) An object remover/importer/ hierarchy adjusting tool. This option will help modellers like myself who are constantly upgrading models to keep up with the new SCP features.

I do not mind redoing a whole model if there is a mess up in the mesh, but these are things that may help in the long run! Thanx in advance guys, and keep up the good work! Looking forward to seeing what you guys create! Good luck!