[technopredator]

You know, taking advice (if you keep acting like a jerk you'll probably get banned) as a threat (if you keep acting like a jerk I'll ban you) is stupid, but it's doubly stupid when global mods can't even ban people.

How about instead of jumping to conclusions, you keep working on being a sane and productive forum member? You did a good job with this thread after two failed attempts, I'm sure you'll continue to improve.

Well genius, here is the thing: is not stupid at all if you consider that any mod can ban people as in most forums I have been happens, so how I was suppose to know some mods can and other can't in this particular forum? And if a mod talks in that tone generally means: "you're in very thing ice, and the ice is all mine so watch it". A repeatedly mistake you make is that you don't consider others POV much or at all, calling me stupid while I was simply reasoning in a way outside your scope of view, I think that is stupid. I'm trying to be a good forum member despite your now constant attacks.

@KyadCK: You seem quite a reasonable fellow, so here is my answer: what I wanted was some kind of demo of his so mentioned 'pro awesome' gameplay, I have never got nothing even close to that and he kept writing that so, I wanted to know, so I asked and he showed me another guys performance and never answered how he did on the mission 'Enter the dragon' and then he focused on another issue and then he finally got pissed off; and I'm the one to blame? right...

I know some reasonable people like yourself have actually understood my POV with very few sentences, but in every forums there are people that will miss the point unfortunately, I don't know if they do it purposely or I can't express myself well in English, and I need to make the point REALLY clear and write LONG walls of texts, which pisses me off and I ***** a little in the middle of it. Others will counter my POV, I have no problem with that as long as you give evidence that support you claims, but some people go: I do good so you must be retarded, or a noob, or doing it wrong, or you just suck at games.

Anyway yes I think maybe, but not sure, is more a natural ability+preference combo that the actual yield of each input device on certain circumstances.

What I really wanted is this game to have a great support for the mouse, since people making changes/mods at the seems they have the ability to change almost anything about FSO, I never intended to polemic the issue.

As for a good joystick: a MS Sidewinder Pro was like 45 $us in my third world Country, that is like 280 $us for a USA citizen in comparison, so spending 14 $us on a generic joystick was more that I wanted to spend on it. Then I shouldn't be playing video games, yeah, probably that's right.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, see, those 'constant attacks' are me trying to save you from getting yourself flamed to hell and banned.

I have never got nothing even close to that and he kept writing that so, I wanted to know, so I asked and he showed me another guys performance and never answered how he did on the mission 'Enter the dragon' and then he focused on another issue and then he finally got pissed off; and I'm the one to blame? right...

You asked for me to post YouTube vids and now you're irritated that I haven't? I don't even have FRAPS installed. Enter the Dragon was piss-easy on Insane, making snapshots isn't tricky.

You've successfully shat up another thread, so if we get one more post in that vein consider it locked. You got extra tolerance because you seemed reasonable at the start of this thread; manage to maintain that tone and you'll keep your threads open.

I can't express myself well in English

Here's my number one tip: try not calling things retarded because they don't work exactly how you want. My number two tip is to post like you did in the first post in this thread rather than playing thread pyro.

[Zacam]

The existing mouse control could admittedly use a few refinements and an ability to choose some options for HOW it get's implemented.

There are other interface issues to be addressed before that can happen, however. Which means that outside of the current default, the only existing solution lies in the Scripting portion of the engine. If a particular script doesn't do it for you, don't despair, it is possible that somebody else might make a different one, or you can find a way to improve an existing one as an alternative that works closer to what you desire.

Also, joystick and keyboard bindings are also lacking some additional refinements as well which are in the process of being addressed. But in addition to these, there are over a hundred other things also being addressed. (See the SCP Mantis for the current # of open issues) as well as plenty of additional features requested or being worked on...all by a very small number of volunteers in their free time.

So no matter the strength of the argument nor it's tone will do anything to make any changes of any kind occur any faster than they currently are. So while your point is appreciated, and the frustration you feel in not being clearly understood in the manner in which you feel you should be is also understood, moderation of the self in terms of tone and phrasing will do a lot better in maintaining that when the time comes for these changes to begin taking place, you can be valued as someone who will provide critical and important feedback, or you can be disregarded as someone who is just never satisfied and never will be.

[KyadCK]

While i understand wanting your favorite control style to be integrated into the game (my own first post was asking for dual-joystick support) you need to remember that everyone here that contributes does so for free, on their own time, with the resources they have. As a result asking will get a lot more done then demanding and saying things like "the game will continue to suck until this control type is added".

As you pointed out earlier you were pissed off when you originally started the threads, but in fairness to everyone else thats not their fault nor do they deserve it. They have done an incredible job and a statement like that is kinda just asking for a fight no matter what mood your in. Things tend to go better if you chill out and calmly state your request, or even ask if its possible to do what you want at all. The last thing anyone needs are forums full of anger and demanding.

Anyway, not trying to start a fight, just to help smooth things out.

EDIT: also, as Zacam says above me, they got a lot of reqests already

[technopredator]

@Zacam: Point taken. You should be a moderator, that was a pro awesome mod reply, dude (no sarcasm).

@KyadCK: Also point taken, another perfect mod reply.

I apologize to all contributors to this game, I know you have gone a long way improving this game, instead I'll try to help contributing myself making the volunteers number +1 and build with you all a better FSO and community.

[z64555]

As several people have already mentioned here before, you cannot really force an irreversible overhaul on the control systems, especially since there is a very good chance that a majority of the people before you have made due and gotten used to what was originally available.

With that comment out of the way, let's going some of the unique attributes of the commonly used controls:

Keyboard:
Digital control. - Velocity/ Acceleration

Movement is generally velocity based or acceleration based, both being set to Maximum when pressed. Very fine movement control is nearly impossible for most beginners, but veteran users of the keyboard can "pulse" the keys to get to a rate lower than Maximum.

Advantages: keyboard places the user's hands near a 100 some-odd keys, allowing a very quick response. Can have 6DoF control.

Disadvantages: since it is a digital controller, movement precision is going to be limited.

Mouse:
Analog control. - Positional

Movement is has been historically position based, meaning moving the mouse x inches will move/rotate y inches in the game. This method has supreme accuracy, but suffers from requiring constant moving when doing sharp turns in spacecraft.

Some games have incorporated a velocity based control system, meaning that moving the mouse x inches will move/rotate at a rate of y inches per second. The method allows smoother control during the turns, but drastically affects precision aiming/sniping.

Advantages: User has supreme precision during standard positional mode. Turning smoothly is improved during velocity mode

Disadvantages: Turning smoothly is problematic during the standard positional mode. Precision is degraded during velocity mode

Trackball:
Analog control. - Positional

Uses essentially the same control system that the mouse uses, however most trackball configurations allow the user to quickly switch from precise movements to smooth and fast turning, simply by changing the way the user spins the ball. Really good trackballs also allow users to spin the ball in one direction for a "long" time, which can compete with the joystick in turning quite easily.

Advantages: Supreme precision for most types of trackballs. Allows for smoother turns than Mouse in positional mode.

Disadvantages: Long turns can be jerky

Joystick:
Analog control - Accelerational

Long-held "de-facto" standard by most flight sims, the joystick's biggest strength is that it allows for very fluid movements. Tilting x degrees will turn y degrees per second in-game. Its primary weakness is that it is not precise, it takes a good bit of wiggling around to just get the craft pointed at a small object far away.

Joysticks hold an ability over mice and trackballs in their positional modes- they can adjust two directions mid-turn.

Joysticks also hold an aesthetic advantage over mice and trackballs. To date, which real-world aircraft have ever used a mouse or trackball as its control system?

Advantages: Aesthetically appeasing. 2 axis velocity adjustments. Supremely smooth turning

Disadvantages: Poor precision

Gamepad
Digital/Analog Control: Velocity/Acceleration

DualShock style gamepads have both digital and analog controls on them, which effectively place them in-between pure keyboards and joysticks. Quite common for console games, the gamepad sacrifices the number of keys for portability and to make room for the two joysticks.

Their joysticks are much less precise than their bigger brothers, do to the significantly shorter lever arms. However, the soon-to-be SixAxis styles will allow users to have full 6DoF velocity/acceleration control while most other combination are limited to 4.

Advantages: Aesthetically appeasing. 2 axis velocity adjustments. Smooth turning. Ability for 6DoF in near future.

Disadvantages: Poorer precision than Joystick, less ability for fine-adjustments.


It should be noted that people have their own preferences. Some people for whatever reason can't use one or more types of controls, due to budget, space constraints, or unavailability of the control type.

Therefore, control systems must be flexible enough to suit an individual person's needs. You cannot simply say "Everybody must use this type of control system, and this type only" nowadays for PC retail. Doing so will result in very few sales.

[QuantumDelta]

It should also be pointed out that the mouse is the lowest skill requiring input device, and even with the script he wants for it, would be the least reactive ('cept for fine aim which is already the case). Moveover, it would require /even less/ skill.
And, should it be tuned to the point where it can actually be both mouse and joystick, it would break multi completely.

You should try some multi sometime techno, your views will be challenged.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Hey QD, you should see what I posted on the Scariest Ship thread. Just to point out about how much I dread facing a good keyboarder such as yourself...

[QuantumDelta]

Yup, but that's not just because of skill on the keyboard, that's because of knowledge of other pilots, like knowing that I should exploit my faster reactions vs joystick users, or not get into a head on with a mouse user, I play to my control interfaces strengths, which to be honest, if other people did (since quite a lot of people are mice users atm, and to be COMPLETELY honest, I hate this, as it distorts peoples views of the game compared to joy/keyboard/even game pad) the same, and play to a mouse users strengths, I wouldn't be able to do those 4v1s very easily at all

Instead, they get in ships too light and too weak for their turn speed and just end up as food because I treat them like mediocre joystick pilots, when they could instead be /brilliant/ mouse pilots :<

I suspect that's the problem the Op is having.

[Jeff Vader]

Moved, since this is more of a feature request than a 'problem'.

I don't like how the mouse works in FS right now. I play with a keyboard exclusively, because I don't want to invest into a pleasurestick just for one game. If we were to get some good joymouse functionality into FSO, it would be insanely awesome, because I always liked the mouse control in Freelancer. But seeing how it would require some interface stuff to indicate where you are turning and at what rate (not to mention potentially adding the Freelancer functionality where the guns on your ship would actually turn and follow the targeting reticle), I'm sure it would still require quite a bit of work. So yeah, we probably can't expect it in the near future.

But as many people already said: just because you can't use your favourite contolling scheme doesn't mean you can't play the game well enough. With one clear exception, I've managed to do well with keyboard-only controls in FS.

[Dragon]

Freelancer style aiming isn't nessesary (Parkan II features similar controls to Freelancer, but guns shoot straight all the time).
Indicator would indeed be nice, though another game with such controlls (Starmageddon II) used a simple, movable reticle to indicate position of the mouse.
Also, couldn't mouse flight styles be toggled by a launcher flag instead of interface? It seems to be working for a lot of other things.

[Zacam]

If it can be made an in-game selectable option, so much the better.

Why? When the Launcher works so well?

Well, you see, there is this thing called Desura.

Now, even if Freespace never get's put on it, how many games do you think are on it (or by compare, on Steam or any other platform) that has the additional complexity of such a feature-able launcher as ours? And while ours is nice, if we can make a method for configuring these options in-game (say, at Pilot Select where the game-mode itself hasn't been set yet, allowing us to make customizations to light settings, etc) then so much the easier if all the User has to do is is select "FreeSpace Open" and "Launch".

[Dilmah G]

Just going to put my 2 cents worth in here - in my opinion, k/m and joystick becomes mostly irrelevant except for specific situations, like turning circles and such like QD mentioned earlier (I believe?). In my experience of dogfighting, both online and offline (admittedly I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different), what matters more is your ability to 'think' the dogfight, and have a large pool of tricks to draw from.

If you can up yourself from being a lead crosshair/enemy aircraft chaser to thinking the dogfight and staying ahead of your opponent, you should be able to succeed no matter what your method of input is. I mean, do you think what you use to control your 'videogame spaceship' is going to matter if you can run the fight through in your head and see what your opponent is doing before he does it, and subsequently counter it?

I mean, if you're going against a keyboard player as a joystick user, keep that in mind and work the fight to your advantages - use the throttle control and keep a good distance to prevent the fight from turning into a jinkfest, where the keyboard user has the advantage, and think ahead and don't fall into a lag pursuit turn that gives the other guy an opportunity to reverse left or extend high and splash you faster than you could crank the stick.

As for the precision with a joystick, if you play on max sensitivity and zero deadzone, precision isn't such an issue as long as your stick isn't a pile of crap that sticks around the centre, in my experience.

[KyadCK]

"I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different"

by my experiance it is very very different, its one thing to chase an AI and it trys to dodge you and its buddys come in to get you. its a whole nother if you chase a player, and sudenly they turn full attention to you, whip around and give a nice taste of weapon fire and all the sudden you're in a real dogfight with someone who can guess what you might do next

on the other side of things, online co-op is nice cause instead of getting a team of AI, you get real people who can adapt to the situation and communicate

FS single player is very fun, but i find online better (assumeing reasonable circumstances ofcource, multi with a 1sec ping isnt that much fun)

ofcource, i havent been playin multi for long, others may feel different

[QuantumDelta]

You're both correct
I'll let you work that one out!

[jr2]

* jr2 has an idea... (for when this eventually gets implemented after the interface code is re-written and what-not)

How about tying the Mouse-as-joystick option to a toggle-key, selectable in the controls menu inside of FS?  So, I set the toggle-key to Left Shift ... or, say, the 5th button on my mouse (once that is supported, or Button 3 or w/e).  Have the game treat the mouse as a joystick, then when the toggle button is pressed, the "joystick" part of the mouse input gets zeroed (so that you don't get a nasty surprise when it's toggled back on again) and the mouse becomes the sniper's best friend again until it needs to go back to being the dogfighter's (well second) best friend?  And maybe have an option as to which mode the game defaults to on startup?

What are the opinions about that idea?

EDIT: Err... I don't want to hijack the thread, should I make my own poll?

EDIT2: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74348.0 

[General Battuta]

I think that suggestion has been answered by coder posts earlier in the thread. It's a nice idea though.

[chief1983]

I can't believe this is 2 pages in and no one mentioned 'command line option' yet.  Dunno if I should be proud or not.

[Nuke]

having played freespace on everything from keyboard, kb and mouse, high end hotas, low end hotas, gamepads, cheap joysticks, arrays of cheap joysticks, diy serial joysticks, diy wireless serial joysticks, and even a wiimote and nunchuck. of course all of this is done through 3rd party utilities, and some of my own utilities that i wrote myself, scripting and a hell of a lot of configuration time.

that said here is my plan for what i like to call an "complete input overhaul":

1: start by switching from direct input to sdl on all platforms, including windows.
sdl can support as many joysticks as are installed in the system. it is also already implemented on non-windows platforms.

2: separate mouse bindings from joystick bindings, make mouse axes and buttons bind-able to any other axis or button respectively.

3: implement mouse modes.  which include all the possible features from both wanderer's mouse script and a few from my older script. modes would be standard, mouse as joystick, both (toggleable with keystroke), and any other features i may think of.

4: more binds for axes. such as lateral/vertical thrusters, reverse thrust axis, possibly afterburn axis.  also want to do a partitioned throttle (ab/forward/reverse/reverse-ab axes controlled by one axis) which i have done with scripting in the cockpit demo.

5: bindable free-look axes. so that you can have freelook without a trackir, or using keyboard commands. which would allow you to use mice, spare joystick axes, or other motion-control devices to change your view.

6: more keyboard commands, mainly for mouse and freelook modes.

7: interface tweaks to give users control of all the above.

i might dip into the input code myself after a couple things happen. antipodes 8 probably needs to be committed. probably would require the more robust pilot files to work right.
also i want to make sure my particle code is at a state where it can be committed, i dont seem to have much feedback on that since the patch i put up last week.
of course im only going to look at the code, try to figure out how it works. last time i saw it i hid in my closet for 3 weeks because it scared me. its possible that i might be able to figure it out well enough to apply at least some of my planned upgrades. but im not promising anything.

[QuantumDelta]

Don't make me be more forceful about the level of alarm and deep distrust I have anyone perhaps other than maybe Karajorma or The_E ****ing around with such stuff, because of how drastically it could effect multiplayer balance.
The most skill requiring interface is currently the one that is the most powerful (Joystick, after several modifications which make it /harder to use/ (read; no deadzone, no centre function, and maximum sensativity)).

The least skill requiring interface is arguably currently the one that is the weakest(if I had to pick one), but still has distinct advantages over the others, and the one which is in between is generally in between both on all counts.

While there are things that could be done to the FSO engine in general, in terms of it's effect on vanilla/mvp FS2, it should be _ZERO_.
Really ZERO. Everything has it's purpose and effectiveness, and Volition did a _VERY_ good job in balancing them.
Giving people the best control mechanism on the laziest, easiest, most-noob-conjested control interface would be an absolute farse.