[Mr. Vega]

Better path: can we nail down the difference between portrayal and exploitation?

And MPRyan, how the **** should the rape scene have been handled? Aside from what the reaction would have been, we can at least try to avoid triggering PTSD reactions as much as we can.

You forget when the "almost rape" backstory came out in a press release prior to the game coming out Crystal Dynamics got shredded for it, and right so. Rape as backstory just might be the single most hated trope there is by women, the cheapest of the cheap when it comes to giving them a dark and troubled past.

[MP-Ryan]

And MPRyan, how the **** should the rape scene have been handled? Aside from what the reaction would have been, we can at least try to avoid triggering PTSD reactions as much as we can.

You forget when the "almost rape" backstory came out in a press release prior to the game coming out Crystal Dynamics got shredded for it, and right so. Rape as backstory just might be the single most hated trope there is by women, the cheapest of the cheap when it comes to giving them a dark and troubled past.

Two options:

1.  Do not include any implication of a rape sequence to begin with, and stick to a simple intended killing.
2.  Continue with the implication, and cautiously present the implicated horror of the sexual violence without actually depicting it onscreen, being careful to treat it as an abhorrent act, rather than a quasi-pornographic fantasy sequence.

Here's the thing:  rape was not actually a part of Lara's past.  Successfully killing a man who was going to rape and kill her is (according to the reboot).  There's an important distinction there... and as a practical matter, I don't think including an attempted rape in a female character's development in a story set ostensibly in modern times is all that much of a trope or stretch; it's reality for many, many women.  In the context of Tomb Raider, it is fully believable that this male cult member will carry out his violence against a female captive in a sexualized manner.

This is one of the reasons that I get perturbed at people who criticize female and male characters receiving different treatment in games; they receive different treatment in real life, and if your game setting is a close approximation to real life, then ignoring the fact that much of the violence directed toward women is sexual in nature does the horror of reality a supreme disservice.  It reeks of a sanitizing lens on real-world problems, which games, like film and books, can be used to honestly approach and critique.  Exhibit A:  The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series

As for PTSD, frankly any violent game should come with PTSD warnings for both sexes to begin with.  This is not a uniquely female phenomenon, although a game that takes the approach that I would have preferred in TR (instead of its terrible compromise decision) should probably contain additional warnings about sexual violence specifically.

[Meneldil]

It implies women or sex workers are powerless poor creatures that need to be protected by ad hoc game mechanics.

Well they are apparently powerless in-game but no that's not the point and neither was it implied.

But the fact is when a man fantasizes about hurting a woman, chances are he is in fact fantasizing about hurting a woman,

This sentence doesn't make any sense. You've said the exact same thing twice

Sorry for writing it that way, but I did think it'd be clear from the context.
You're arguing there's a difference between hurting women in particular and hurting humans in general. I explicitly agreed with that, but added that when someone fantasizes about hurting a woman it's far too often (at least partly) about hurting a woman, and not just about hurting a person that happens to be a woman.
When someone takes their time to beat up the bunch of most stereotypical victims of sexualized violence and thinks of it as a particularly* upload worthy moment, based on common sense and experience I know what I'm going to think their motivation is.

*this is how I understood the comment originally: someone uploading that particular scene; it being just a part of the whole gameplay video changes things somewhat (not that muchwhat tho but whatever)

Or are you saying that if they're doing that in the game, that makes them like that in real life by result of what they're doing in game?

No, I'm not saying that, I'm not that ridiculous.


As for the poor children of Skyrim, it has nothing to do with moral panic or tabooness of it, it's that I find it to be such a non issue. It's a game where you can collect and carry a truckload of cabbage and then eat it all in one sitting to regain to regain health lost after a dragon nearly burned you to death, and it's not being able to kill children that's disturbingly immersion breaking. Like come on.
No it's not about how such a horrifying act of violence would corrupt our youth, it's about how unnecessary it is to allow your game to be used as a children murder simulator when literally the only benefit is that people on the internet won't complain about how immersion breaking not being able to kill children is.
MP-Ryan's suggestion of insta-killing you for it is just as good and funnier, but not that much different I think.

I think there is a value in including real-world sexism in real-world games, because it exists, and its wrong, and hopefully if its presented in a respectful way, people seeing it in game will make that connection in their lives as well.

I agree, but depending on how big of an issue you're tackling and the amount of player involvement, there's a large chance of screwing it up, and there's things no one will blame you for not including.

[deathfun]

Well they are apparently powerless in-game but no that's not the point and neither was it implied.

I'll still respond to it: So was the white male cowering in the corner. Civilians are powerless.

You're arguing there's a difference between hurting women in particular and hurting humans in general. I explicitly agreed with that, but added that when someone fantasizes about hurting a woman it's far too often (at least partly) about hurting a woman, and not just about hurting a person that happens to be a woman...
...based on common sense and experience I know what I'm going to think their motivation is.

There's a lot of fluff, not a whole lot of facts. You think you know their motivation, you don't know their motivation. You can argue that your experience and common sense of the matter back up your statement, but it's circumstantial in nature and only possibly alludes to it.

Take this for example: I took my time to beat up a hooker. From this you derive I have a fantasy to hurt women because of "common sense and personal experience". Now here's some fact - I took my time to beat up that hooker because it was a mechanic in the game that could be taken to some pretty hilarious results. It's also easier to pick up a hooker to send off a bridge than it is to kidnap someone in the car (though watching them jump out at high speeds is pretty hilarious. Specially when a semi hits them afterwards. So close yet so far)

*this is how I understood the comment originally: someone uploading that particular scene; it being just a part of the whole gameplay video changes things somewhat (not that muchwhat tho but whatever)

Video in question about Hitman? Well it was a fifty minute gameplay video which happened to contain him using a strip clubs personnel to his amusement. Plenty of civilians just standing around. They didn't run, so really they were just asking to get shot (this is fault to just lazy programming on the part of devs. In reality, programming costs are to blame for people piling strippers and strip club clients in piles).

No, I'm not saying that, I'm not that ridiculous.

Just checking. Sentences that make sense in context to one person don't always make sense to another, specially when there is so much context to derive from.

No it's not about how such a horrifying act of violence would corrupt our youth, it's about how unnecessary it is to allow your game to be used as a children murder simulator

Children murder simulator. Sounds like something Microsoft would make
I just like being able to murder everything I see in games. However, it's not a detriment to my experience or immersion. I'll just call it what it is: The more I can kill the merrier

[Akalabeth Angel]

herein lies my fundamental opposition to arguments like Sarkeesians concerning the prostitutes and the way women are sometimes treated in games:  women are sometimes/often/frequently treated this way in real life.  If you are making an authentic game experience, you can't tiptoe around that.  I think there is a value in including real-world sexism in real-world games, because it exists, and its wrong, and hopefully if its presented in a respectful way, people seeing it in game will make that connection in their lives as well.

The counter-argument is that the inclusion of these elements in games helps perpetuate the viewers acceptance or perceptions of women and also helps to reinforce patriarchal ideals about society.  And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

Sarkeesian I think is an advocate of not challenging these ideals or stereotypes by their inclusion, but rather by their exclusion. By replacing weak female characters with strong ones, women who are strong as women not as men.

Games can be tools for social change.  Many developers are too chicken to try it, and I fear some critique like Sarkeesian's make them less likely, not more.

Why would anyone be afraid of Anita Sarkeesian? She's under constant abuse from a very vocal and vitriolic gaming community. Depression Quest, a game which allegedly tries to tackle some of these important issues was just involved in the biggest **** storm of recent memory.  The vast majority of game developers are still men, not women. The vast majority of games, particularly successful ones have male protagonists, not women. Why would any developer be inclined to tackle social issues and gender inequality in such an environment?

Even Tomb Raider, a top-selling game with a female protagonist has been described by some journalists I follow as a torture simulator. The guy joked about the cops being called to his apartment because the whole thing is about Lara getting hurt and beat up, to the point where he felt dirty after playing the game despite enjoying the gameplay.

The developers aren't afraid of Sarkeesian, they're afraid the male hardcore masses wont buy their game and independent developers, particularly female ones, are probably not too inclined either unless some developers start making reactionary games to recent controversy.

[Lorric]

And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

I don't like this example, because porn involves real people doing real things, games do not.

Games are exaggerated fantasy Worlds with characters who are not real people.

[Akalabeth Angel]

And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

I don't like this example, because porn involves real people doing real things, games do not.

Games are exaggerated fantasy Worlds with characters who are not real people.

"Porn videos are exaggerated fantasy world with characters who are not real people."
(both figuratively and to some extent, literally thanks to plastic surgery for both men and women). Much like games, no?


And News flash. People also get off to Computer Generated and Hand Drawn porn. You don't need to be viewing real people to have a real effect on the human psyche.
You can submit the theory that people affected by this phenomena (PIED I believe it is, Porn-Induced Erectile Dysfunction)  have only subjected themselves to real video and not Computer Generated material, however without a study to explore the idea it's pure guesswork.

[Lorric]

And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

I don't like this example, because porn involves real people doing real things, games do not.

Games are exaggerated fantasy Worlds with characters who are not real people.

"Porn videos are exaggerated fantasy world with characters who are not real people."
(both figuratively and to some extent, literally thanks to plastic surgery for both men and women). Much like games, no?

That's pretty weak. The sex act is real. The people are real. Games have a clear separation between fantasy and reality. I know anything I do in-game has no effect on anything real, and usually doesn't even have a lasting effect in-game.

[deathfun]

Why would anyone be afraid of Anita Sarkeesian? She's under constant abuse from a very vocal and vitriolic gaming community.

A portion of a very, very large amount of people does not make an entire community vitriolic
Rephrase it to "the ones that make us all look bad" and "internet ****disturbers"

And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

Alternate theory: They masturbated an extreme amount making their stamina that of a juggernaut. And then they masturbated too much leaving them dysfunctional in bed.

Course, your number of *thousands* is a tiny spec in comparison to how many people live in a country. It's similar to saying that a certain number of people a year suffer from a disease

And I do agree that media influences how society perceives certain things. That's generally the point of the media
However, we as individuals are fully capable of determining whether or not it actually controls how we think.

Much like games, no?

More in line with movies and Metal Gear Solid hence why the people in porn are called "actors"

[Akalabeth Angel]

Why would anyone be afraid of Anita Sarkeesian? She's under constant abuse from a very vocal and vitriolic gaming community.

A portion of a very, very large amount of people does not make an entire community vitriolic
Rephrase it to "the ones that make us all look bad" and "internet ****disturbers"

Whether their numbers are large or small they're likely defining public perception.
Women suffer abuse just from speaking during an online match.

And don't anyone say that the media you view doesn't have an effect on how you react to aspects of the world, there are thousands of guys out there right now who can't get it off because the sex they're having isn't as exciting as the porn they've subjected themselves to.

Alternate theory: They masturbated an extreme amount making their stamina that of a juggernaut. And then they masturbated too much leaving them dysfunctional in bed.

Medical Study > internet theory.

However, we as individuals are fully capable of determining whether or not it actually controls how we think.

Oh really? You pre-determine every thought that comes into your mind? Every thought is a product of deliberate intent?
Don't think so.

People choose how they act, they don't always choose how they think.

Much like games, no?

More in line with movies and Metal Gear Solid hence why the people in porn are called "actors"

Games don't have actors?
Animated porn doesn't have actors?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Btw on the subject of ZQ, Moviebob wrote an article talking about some of what's going on:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/moviesandtv/columns/moviebob/12173-Comparing-Film-Journalism-and-Games-Journalism

I don't tend to like this guy but might be worth reading.

[Meneldil]

Now here's some fact - I took my time to beat up that hooker because it was a mechanic in the game that could be taken to some pretty hilarious results.

look I'm sorry if you're feeling yours or hypothetically yours hooker beating sensibilities are implicitly slighted by my generic statements on hooker beaters, but that's not what we're on about, and I'm going to have to stand by what I originally said, which is:

There's a difference between playing generic videogames you kill people in, and uploading a video of your character beating up and killing prostitutes. The first usually implies a silly fascination with being a hollywood blockbuster superhero, the second implies fascination with beating up and killing female sex workers.

and I believe it's true generally speaking and especially so if that's what the video is about (in which case it definitely can't not be misogynistic).
Besides it's really not like the situation's symmetrical and that it's all just the same; beating up scantly clad women has implications I'd expect a well socialized individual to recognize and to feel uncomfortable with them at least enough to not share it on youtube for everyone, women included, to see. Saying that you'd have no trouble uploading a video like that because it's all just polygons to you is irrelevant, because in making the internet such a toxic place for women, it really doesn't matter one bit who's "trolling", who's just being ~edgy~ and who's like you know god forbid really sexist.
And it's exactly the same with video games. There's an excuse for every scene someone could call sexist and they're bound to be good at least some of the time, but the end result still sucks just as bad.

[Lorric]

Personally I'd expect a "well socialised individual" to not pass judgements on people based on playing a game, and not draw conclusions about their real life personality from what they do in a game.

Are you going to look down on anyone who plays on Team Evil in a game or chooses the evil character or the evil story arc?

Do you condemn games developers for putting evil characters into their games?

[AdmiralRalwood]

I'd expect a "well-socialized individual" not to tolerate rape threats either, so I don't think you're really an expert on the subject, Lorric.

Besides which, I absolutely pass judgements on people based on how they play video games. If someone uploads a video of themselves playing Skyrim with a bunch of sexy armor mods and killing children, I am very definitely going to be judging them based on their choices.

[Lorric]

I'd expect a "well-socialized individual" not to tolerate rape threats either, so I don't think you're really an expert on the subject, Lorric.

Hmmmm... those are things which I just see as empty words. No intent of doing any actual harm behind them. Though I'll certainly grant you such talk can make me feel uneasy, and there's scope for it to be done in a way which would make me feel there was more to it than just empty words.

Besides which, I absolutely pass judgements on people based on how they play video games. If someone uploads a video of themselves playing Skyrim with a bunch of sexy armor mods and killing children, I am very definitely going to be judging them based on their choices.

And what would it make you think of them?

[Meneldil]

Personally I'd expect a "well socialised individual" to not pass judgements on people based on playing a game, and not draw conclusions about their real life personality from what they do in a game.

Are you going to look down on anyone who plays on Team Evil in a game or chooses the evil character or the evil story arc?

Do you condemn games developers for putting evil characters into their games?

We were talking about playing a game and uploading it on youtube.
If it is just playing the game, and you spend time to beat up every woman in a strip club and kill her, I'll conclude you're probably a creep who I don't in fact want to be well-socialized with anyway, which I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. But that's completely irrelevant for this discussion, isn't it?

The rest about evil story arcs and evil characters is completely unwarranted, please don't strawman me.

[Lorric]

Personally I'd expect a "well socialised individual" to not pass judgements on people based on playing a game, and not draw conclusions about their real life personality from what they do in a game.

Are you going to look down on anyone who plays on Team Evil in a game or chooses the evil character or the evil story arc?

Do you condemn games developers for putting evil characters into their games?

We were talking about playing a game and uploading it on youtube.
If it is just playing the game, and you spend time to beat up every woman in a strip club and kill her, I'll conclude you're probably a creep who I don't in fact want to be well-socialized with anyway, which I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. But that's completely irrelevant for this discussion, isn't it?

The rest about evil story arcs and evil characters is completely unwarranted, please don't strawman me.

I'm just trying to get an understanding of how the "other side" sees this. And why we are so different in how we'd interpret it. I wouldn't see anything wrong with it, it's a pretty ingrained gamer thing, if you're going to kill stuff, you just go and kill everything in the room. It's just mindless fun and you're not doing one iota of harm to a real person. I like to explore games and gameplay mechanics, I like to test the boundaries of what I can do in a game. It doesn't mean anything beyond that.

So while you believe your conclusion is reasonable, I would feel very insulted if I was on the receiving end of criticism based on my actions in a video game.

I wasn't trying to strawman you. In fairness I can see why you might have thought I was, but it just comes back to me trying to get a feel of where the boundaries are and what is and isn't acceptable to you. I'd like to make another thread on it, and that might be best, but I'm not sure how to.

[Meneldil]

I'm just trying to get an understanding of how the "other side" sees this. And why we are so different in how we'd interpret it. I wouldn't see anything wrong with it, it's a pretty ingrained gamer thing, if you're going to kill stuff, you just go and kill everything in the room. It's just mindless fun and you're not doing one iota of harm to a real person. I like to explore games and gameplay mechanics, I like to test the boundaries of what I can do in a game. It doesn't mean anything beyond that.

So while you believe your conclusion is reasonable, I would feel very insulted if I was on the receiving end of criticism based on my actions in a video game.

I wasn't trying to strawman you. In fairness I can see why you might have thought I was, but it just comes back to me trying to get a feel of where the boundaries are and what is and isn't acceptable to you. I'd like to make another thread on it, and that might be best, but I'm not sure how to.

See my answer to deathfun; i don't want to talk about you and i'm really not saying that to be rude, i'm saying that because the topic we're talking about is more general than why Lorric beats people up in videogames and what Meneldil thinks about it, which isn't even suited for a public forum anyway.

What I am talking about is my opinion on what are motivation of most of the people who'd do something like that, and yes, it's based solely on what i hear and see men talk about (you know things like "I'd love to rape her." or "Just give me five minutes alone with her..."), and on what I see and hear men do, but what else would it be based on, really.
As for me judging someone based on what they do in a video game, the only way for me to know what you've done and judge you is for you to tell me, and if you're going around telling random strangers how much you love the mechanics of beating up women in video game strip clubs, then you're at least astoundingly unaware of what it sounds like, which in turn makes it all the more likely that it is in fact exactly what it sounds like. And if you're telling it in a mixed company, then it is perfectly reasonable for women in it to feel threatened, attacked or insulted. Just ask the women participating in this discussion, really.

[Lorric]

See my answer to deathfun; i don't want to talk about you and i'm really not saying that to be rude, i'm saying that because the topic we're talking about is more general than why Lorric beats people up in videogames and what Meneldil thinks about it, which isn't even suited for a public forum anyway.

Well we don't need to get into me personally, but in terms of providing an example of someone who it would have no bearing what I do in a game on what I would do in real life, that person is me.

What I am talking about is my opinion on what are motivation of most of the people who'd do something like that, and yes, it's based solely on what i hear and see men talk about (you know things like "I'd love to rape her." or "Just give me five minutes alone with her..."), and on what I see and hear men do, but what else would it be based on, really.

It's the same for me. I just don't draw a connection between the two, I see a very clear boundary separating fantasy from reality in just about all it's forms. Of course it's possible for someone to fantasise about something they would truly carry out of they had the chance, but when we speak of games, they are escapist. They are exaggerated. And they are real World consequence-free. As long as you know where the line is, and I give people that credit, there is no connection between what you do in-game and what you do in real life. I'm curious why you feel there is a connection.

A stronger example is an actor is not going to become the role they play, even though they will immerse themselves extremely deeply into it. So it is the same with the role someone chooses to play in a game. One minute they might be going on a killing rampage, the next there's another game being played, and they're playing a completely different role.

A rape fantasy has no harm in it by itself. You're not harming anyone by using your imagination.

As for me judging someone based on what they do in a video game, the only way for me to know what you've done and judge you is for you to tell me, and if you're going around telling random strangers how much you love the mechanics of beating up women in video game strip clubs, then you're at least astoundingly unaware of what it sounds like, which in turn makes it all the more likely that it is in fact exactly what it sounds like. And if you're telling it in a mixed company, then it is perfectly reasonable for women in it to feel threatened, attacked or insulted. Just ask the women participating in this discussion, really.

That's not what I'm doing. Let's say I decided to go beat up or kill some NPCs. My motivation would just be to see what happened. Would I be able to harm them at all? If so, what happens? What will they do? Run from me? Defend themselves with their fists? Gang up on me? Pull weapons? I'm just playing the game and seeing what happens when I do certain things in-game.

HLP is overwhelmingly male, as are you. I've been here over two and a half years regularly and in all that time I only know of one member who is female, who is not in this thread and who I won't reveal, compared to a large number who I know are definitely male.

But if there was a female enjoying doing things to men in a game I would not feel threatened. Even if she was capable of doing those things to me in real life. Because it's only a game.

In terms of unaware of what it sounds like, I am unaware of why you and Ralwood feel you can judge people based on their actions in a game.

[deathfun]

Oh really? You pre-determine every thought that comes into your mind? Every thought is a product of deliberate intent?
Don't think so.

People choose how they act, they don't always choose how they think.

Don't think so? You haven't studied me so don't go presuming you know how my brain works.
But here's something to explain things a little bit better: I say elephant. You now are thinking of an elephant. Is that thinking? It's a thought right? Not entirely. Thinking is fleshing out an idea or concept inside your brain. You then create something out of it. My elephant is now pink, wears a tutu and works on the planet Mars.

Media sells you an idea. It's up to you whether or not you accept the idea as a whole or bring it into your brain and start picking it apart. Thoughts are random unless directed so on a technical level, yes, you're right that we don't choose our base thoughts. We do however choose where those base thoughts end up.

EDIT: Forgot to say this: What are actions but the end of a thinking process which led to action? Action is a byproduct of thinking unless it's instinctual or "out of the blue random". We generally don't go about our days randomly doing actions, so it's safe to say that the majority of our actions were just base thoughts at one point.

Games don't have actors?
Animated porn doesn't have actors?

Wow you missed the point entirely. Games have you taking an active part. Movies are something you just watch. If you know some erotica I can take part in by all means please let me know (none of that 3D polygon crap, I want... I WANT MY POUND OF FLESSSSSHHHH [Borderlands reference])

and I believe it's true generally speaking and especially so if that's what the video is about (in which case it definitely can't not be misogynistic).[/quote

I actually decided to do a quick search on youtube for videos specifically about killing hookers
I saw a whopping two results which were *just* about killing hooker(s), and I don't consider the plural one anything more than a challenge. Because it was a challenge of finding and killing only hookers (you say misogynist, I say specific killing challenge which just happen to be hookers. Could have easily just been any other NPC like "People who wear red")

Besides it's really not like the situation's symmetrical and that it's all just the same; beating up scantly clad women has implications I'd expect a well socialized individual to recognize and to feel uncomfortable with them at least enough to not share it on youtube for everyone, women included, to see.

I beat up a scantily clad women in a game. I fail to see the massive implications by dead polygons
Now what exactly happens if a female say, makes a video which involves her doing this? Does that make them misogynist?

Besides which, I absolutely pass judgements on people based on how they play video games. If someone uploads a video of themselves playing Skyrim with a bunch of sexy armor mods and killing children, I am very definitely going to be judging them based on their choices.

And such is your ability to do so
Doesn't make your judgements accurate which is the main point

I'll conclude you're probably a creep who I don't in fact want to be well-socialized with anyway, which I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion

Yes. Completely reasonable to judge someone you've never met [/sarcasm]
Again, just because they were strippers does not mean he spent time to kill them *because they were strippers*

See my answer to deathfun; i don't want to talk about you and i'm really not saying that to be rude, i'm saying that because the topic we're talking about is more general than why Lorric beats people up in videogames and what Meneldil thinks about it, which isn't even suited for a public forum anyway.

Well actually no, it isn't unrelated or unwarranted to discuss what we personally do. We're talking about people who play games (I play games) and then upload stuff (I upload stuff). I'm part of those particular individuals who do these things therefore I am EXACTLY the person to at least provide a voice to those who CAN'T DEFEND THEMSELVES because they DON'T POST HERE and we DON'T KNOW THEM

You can't make broad accusations/judgement on people in an encompassing general form and then dismiss someone who is a part of that broad encompassing general form defending himself. In the end, my point was always "you don't actually have any facts on why they do as they do" so passing judgement on them while it is your purview to do so, doesn't make them as accurate as you make it seem they are.

What I am talking about is my opinion on what are motivation of most of the people who'd do something like that, and yes, it's based solely on what i hear and see men talk about (you know things like "I'd love to rape her." or "Just give me five minutes alone with her..."), and on what I see and hear men do, but what else would it be based on, really.

And we've arrived at two important things. It's an opinion, a theory as to their motivation (which is also technically judging myte. By presuming their motivation, you are presuming the "why". By presuming the "why" you presume you know them. Judging)

And two: Basing opinions from people you *think* are the ones doing that *who are also a minority*. How many videos I saw just about hookers supports that as those were a small amount amongst a great many. However, you have yet to correlate one to the other. There's a fact gap here. Those people spewing off what they'd do to a gal (something I'm not fond of hearing about but tolerate because it's the internet. You say that to my face however, I'm going to smack you in the back of the head) may not even be the ones making those videos. Until you prove the correlation, it's just a theory making things more complicated than they may actually be. Occam's Razor and whatnot. Simplest answer, is probably the right one. Simplest answer here is they played a game, uploaded the video for ****s and giggles, and didn't give it a second thought. Why did they beat up the hooker and upload it? Because they can. There's may be nothing more to it than that.



Now, I do not disagree that it *can* be a motivator, but I won't go about saying it like it's the only reason for the uploaders actions.
I disagree with passing judgement based on lack of correlation between people who spew comments like that to people who upload videos of beating up hookers. Afterall, I am one of those people and my motivations behind it differ from your judgement or opinion (though I don't consider myself a credible "fact" as I am part of this conversation and thus conflict of interest comes up, but the principle behind it is there)