[General Battuta]

Having just seen that review, is the ONLY thing wonky about MW2 its storyline?

If that's true, it seems to be a lot better than you guys make it look.

Battuta has also pointed out poor map design, bad netcode, and bad balance for streaks to you directly already as problems with the multiplayer.

Aye. It is exasperating. The maps are largely awful, characterized by corner hell (or, in two cases, by ridiculously open sightlines that promote corner camping from long distances). The netcode is exasperating - you often get 'pulled' back around a corner after ducking into cover and get killed. The streaks incentivize camping and then reward one successful eleven-kill camp with near guaranteed victory.

And the darn weapons are just so stupid. The Akimbo 1887 shotguns are the most powerful weapons in the game by far - in short to mid range they have the stopping power of a .50 cal sniper rifle in a cone-shaped area.

[Scotty]

Having just seen that review, is the ONLY thing wonky about MW2 its storyline?

If that's true, it seems to be a lot better than you guys make it look.

Battuta has also pointed out poor map design, bad netcode, and bad balance for streaks to you directly already as problems with the multiplayer.

Aye. It is exasperating. The maps are largely awful, characterized by corner hell (or, in two cases, by ridiculously open sightlines that promote corner camping from long distances). The netcode is exasperating - you often get 'pulled' back around a corner after ducking into cover and get killed. The streaks incentivize camping and then reward one successful eleven-kill camp with near guaranteed victory.

And the darn weapons are just so stupid. The Akimbo 1887 shotguns are the most powerful weapons in the game by far - in short to mid range they have the stopping power of a .50 cal sniper rifle in a cone-shaped area.

I'm not going to lie, but those seem rather minor, since half of that happens in the first one as well.  Crappy corner mechanics are nothing new, and I challenge you to call Shipment anything other than corner hell.  Pipeline has ridiculous open sightlines, as does Crossfire, and a lot of Countdown.  Vacant is pretty bad for corner hell too.

I'll probably agree with the weapons, though.  If it had less range, would it be less broken?  M1014 had much the same effect, unless you mean mid range as in assault rifle mid range.

[General Battuta]

No, this does not happen on the first one. I played the first one to death, thanks.

You're not going to get it until you've played it and seen these things. You might still not get it if you weren't a good MW1 player (I was pretty decent though hardly pro.)

Now, the game's slightly growing on me, but these complaints are still very real. And the only good strategy is to camp.

[Scotty]

I like to thing I was pretty good, actually.  I managed to keep a 1.4 K/D while sharing an XBL account with someone that was HORRIBLE.  Accuracy was something around 22.35% at rank 55 1st prestige, which was inside the top 300,000 (or top 150,000 if you don't count half of those due to impossible numbers).  Not trying to argue, just laying the basis of my argument.

That said, camping was still viable in MW1, and I could actually take a good deal of satisfaction from a successfully executed camp (it seems that it's a lot easier in MW2.  I will disabuse them of that notion rather quickly.)  Although I will still maintain that playing Vacant and Shipment are just asking to be corner camped by shotgun d-bags.

Truthfully, camping should be a major viable strategy, realistically (and by that, I mean real-life wise).  Running and gunning is a nice, romanticised way of playing a game, but would get a crap-tonne of people killed if attempted in real life.

[General Battuta]

I obviously know that camping is viable in MW1 because I played the hell out of it. Camping was part of the dynamic balance of MW1, a balance that has now been significantly altered.

You won't be disabusing anyone of any notions in MW2. As the metagame evolves, camping will become more counterable, but due to a slight increase in weapon lethality, bad netcode, awful level design, and truly killer high-level killstreaks, camping is the most viable tactic by far. The best alternative is to run around with akimbo 1887s, but even that should be done defensively, drawing people in to a camp.

The fact that you think that 'run-and-gun' is the only other viable tactic seems to betray a lack of nuance; part of the joy of MW1 was reading the map and the motions of the enemy team and positioning oneself to be ready. That's no longer as possible.

Get back to me when you've put in your first 24 hours of gameplay and we'll talk. I'll either be running around with my UMP or camping with a thermal Intervention and Stopping Power. So far I'm scraping by with a 1.1.

I'm not even going to touch that 'real life' argument.

[Scotty]

I never said that run-and-gun was the only other viable tactic.  I was saying that it was woefully over-represented with MW1's multiplayer style.  Easily half the weapons in the first were most effectively used doing such!  All of the SMGs, both of the shotguns, and arguably the LMGs were all most effective at running and gunning, which, balance wise (due to the weapons themselves, not the tactic) may not have been a colossal issue, still changed the way the game was fundamentally played in multi.

Whether the change from that was BAD, I can't legitimately evaluate right now.

Believe me, I'm TRYING to get some time in on this, but I can't get a copy due to short finances.

[General Battuta]

Whoa, whoa, wait. MW1 did not over-represent run-and-gun. The most effective tactics involved dynamic camping or 'patrolling' or just 'figure out where they're coming and aim at that point', where you'd move between ambush points in response to your predictions as to the enemy's behavior. You could grab a couple kills from one point, the move to another point to kill people who were going to attack your previous position. You could attack if you had to, but 'run-and-gun' wasn't the way to do it, movement from cover to cover was.

The defender always had a big advantage, since you could drop grenades onto your enemy's axis of attack or just sight in a submachine gun on it. The shotguns in MW1 were awful and the LMGs couldn't be used offensively due to the mobility handicap. It was a very well-balanced game all in all (except for the sucky shotguns.)

[Scotty]

We must have been playing different pools of players, because every game I played was filled with people who would mindlessly sprint through the level until the found someone, at which point they just fired randomly in the general direction.

Maybe I exaggerate, but those players exist, and there was not an insignificant number of them.

Although I must ask how you would get kills with dynamic camping without those people running at or looking for your position like that.

And really, I'm not arguing effectiveness here, just that the playstyle was easily over-represented.

[General Battuta]

Although I must ask how you would get kills with dynamic camping without those people running at or looking for your position like that.

Those are the easiest kind of people to kill. You just put yourself in their head, figure out where they'll go, and position yourself to kill them.

It's not like you're camping in one spot. You take a couple shots from one position, then move to kill people who are firing at that position.

We must have been playing different pools of players, because every game I played was filled with people who would mindlessly sprint through the level until the found someone, at which point they just fired randomly in the general direction.

Sure, rushers were present, but they were amongst the easiest to kill. There were as many campers (and the dangerous balanced sorts.)

Once the actual technical side of the game (aiming, moving, whatever) becomes second nature, it frees up cognitive resources to play the game from your opponent's perspective. Like a chess game.

[Desertfox287]

I am extraordinarily peeved in many ways at this game, but I'm still going to play it.

I'm probably not the only one who thought MechWarrior 2 when looking at the title.

BTW, if I'm going to play a competitive multiplayer game, I don't want to have to need a system to bankrupt Bill Gates to play it on.

This is one of the dumbest remarks I've ever heard. The 360 is cheaper than the PC and plays this game fine, and if you're going to play it on PC, it's got some of the lowest system requirements out there.

Actually, if you include the price of online, a wireless adapter, and several other things drive the price up. Because its system requirements are so low, a pc might be cheaper in many respects.

[General Battuta]

I've never payed a cent for Xbox Live thanks to the magic of one month free trials and I have no need for a wireless adapter.

I also own a custom-built gaming PC which I use for lovely PC titles, but I really think the Xbox holds its own.

I had a great night in MW2 last night. I can't decide if it was just because I was On Host or hit a good lobby or something, or whether I'm actually figuring the game out.

[Scotty]

Pessimist:  You hit a good lobby.  Good luck finding another.

Optimist: You're figuring the game out better.

Realist:  You were On Host.

   Not intended to insult or anything.

[General Battuta]

Nope, I'm definitely figuring it out.

I take back everything I said, I ****ing love this game!

(all that said, the maps still suck.)

[Polpolion]

I feel like the only person in the universe that never plays multiplayer.

[redsniper]

It's only fun if you're good. Unless you have a small circle of friends that you can play with regularly, and you're all evenly matched, **** sucks. There will always be guys out there who play whatever game more than you and are thus better, plus there will always be people exploiting every possible imbalance to get an edge.

This has generally been my experience with multiplayer games. Maybe I just suck.

All that said, TF2 is still tremendously fun.

[CP5670]

I used to play games online a lot more often several years ago than I do today. I like the old arena-style and 6DOF FPSs, and find the modern crop of semi-realistic games too slow paced and dull for my liking.

Unless you have a small circle of friends that you can play with regularly

That reminds me, it would be fun to get the HLP Descent games started again at some point. We had a great time with that three years ago.

[Snail]

I feel like the only person in the universe that never plays multiplayer.

I don't either.

[General Battuta]

The only reason I'm really hooked on the multiplayer compared to MW1 now is the joy of camping until I have an AC-130 or Chopper Gunner and then getting fifteen or twenty kills without risk of death. What a rush.

[Snail]

The only reason I'm really hooked on the multiplayer compared to MW2 now is the joy of camping until I have an AC-130 or Chopper Gunner and then getting fifteen or twenty kills without risk of death. What a rush.

So you have become the demons?

[General Battuta]

Eh, kind of. I still camp dynamically and flank a lot, but when I get a good fighting position I'll stick with it for a minute or two. It's all about the psychology.

Opened up my global K/D spread from the horrid +100 to +600 yesterday. I should actually have a KDR that doesn't make me cringe in a week or two.