[Fang_Taichou]

The thing is, if the Ancients conquered each civilization they met without much trouble with their existing weapon tech, then there really isn't any need to spend time and resources developing more powerful stuff.  What they went for instead was subspace tech, thereby letting them conquer many weak races at incredible speeds by quickly expanding across the galaxy.

On the other hand Terrans and Vasudans met each other and got bogged down fighting and improving weapons tech, so they didn't really have the time or resources to develop something like a Knossos, thus the range and territory of each race was substantially limited.

[Vip]

Also, why do people think that the enemies of the Ancients had to be advanced ? I know that there's no cannon evidence, so we can only speculate... But still, I find it hard to believe that EVERY civilization they encountered had warships or even was space fairing.

It is highly probable, that many of the civilisations were at different levels of development, so many Ancient conquest could be similar to the modern Terrans nuking a medieval society. They wouldn't stand the slightest chance. Races at that stage could even simply surrender, terrified by the view of divine creatures coming from the sky.

If that would be the case, it becomes fairly obvious why the Ancients would become so arrogant.  Without or with only a small amount of opponents capable of fighting them back, the Ancients would be slowed down in improving their tech. They probably focused more on ways of efficient expanding their empire.

EDIT: Okey, my bad, they were colonizing systems for thousand of years. Poor memory I guess. Sorry.

[Mobius]

Well...they usually needed a few months to wipe out a civilization. This leads me to think that these other civilizations had space faring vessels and multiple systems = they were as much as advanced as the GTA or PVN.

[Snail]

Well...they usually needed a few months to wipe out a civilization. This leads me to think that these other civilizations had space faring vessels and multiple systems = they were as much as advanced as the GTA or PVN.

You're weird. If they're canonically only slightly superior to the T/Vs, then how can they easily wipe out in months that which is equal to power to the T/Vs, and thus only slightly inferior to the Ancients themselves?

[Mobius]

In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path.

I'm not weird. was weird when talking about the Ancients.

[Vip]

We could benefit if we could ever see Ancient's first encounter with the Shivans. "They were like the other (...) resisitng, fighting. Only they were not like the others; they did not die." Judging by that encounter, we could get an idea of how the encounters with other races lloked like.

"For thousands of years our empire expanded. (...) For so long never did we encounter advanced life." Only after discovering the subspace they encounter advanced life. Killing billions in a few months isn't a big thing - they could just nuke them. Say, a day per planet, and a planet per week ? They could annihilate entire star systems that way.

The question remains - what is an "advanced life". Are modern Terrans advanced yet ? Or were the Ancients refering to powers such as PVN or GTA ?

[Mobius]

Powers such as the PVN or GTA, maybe slightly inferior...or slightly superior. If the Ancients are so proud of their victories, they must have defeated civilizations with fearsome technologies.

[Fang_Taichou]

Well...they usually needed a few months to wipe out a civilization. This leads me to think that these other civilizations had space faring vessels and multiple systems = they were as much as advanced as the GTA or PVN.

You're weird. If they're canonically only slightly superior to the T/Vs, then how can they easily wipe out in months that which is equal to power to the T/Vs, and thus only slightly inferior to the Ancients themselves?

I'm with Snail on this one.  The ancients met many different species, a few may have been space-faring and 1 or 2 might have subspace capabilities, but the rest were most likely still planet-bound.  Thus, they were able to defeat many species over the millenia until they encountered the Shivans.  In fact, the cutscene at the end mentions that if the Shivans didn't exist, the Ancients could've wiped out humanity before we could enter space.

[woutersmits]

we most destory the enemy base and for us and for all

[Vip]

we most destory the enemy base and for us and for all

Ummm, somebody please translate that into English ? "destorying" sounds like some plot device... I will destory you, Shivans, ph34r !!!

Back to discussion - it's fairly obvious now that the Shivans are kind of a galactic police. Economy, people - monopolism is baaaad, and the Ancients were monopolists. Somebody should take an example of Shivans and do the same to some monopolists here on Earth

[Hades]

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

[Mobius]

I'm with Snail on this one.  The ancients met many different species, a few may have been space-faring and 1 or 2 might have subspace capabilities, but the rest were most likely still planet-bound.  Thus, they were able to defeat many species over the millenia until they encountered the Shivans.  In fact, the cutscene at the end mentions that if the Shivans didn't exist, the Ancients could've wiped out humanity before we could enter space.

Good point here, but:

Powers such as the PVN or GTA, maybe slightly inferior...or slightly superior. If the Ancients are so proud of their victories, they must have defeated civilizations with fearsome technologies.

A nation becomes proud in case of victory over another nation. Humans aren't that proud of killing species of other animals.

[Fang_Taichou]

What's to say the Ancients didn't land on the planets and wage war on the ground?  I think only a few of their encounters with other species resulted in space combat, and they were probably much more inferior compared to the GTA and PVN.  Most of the resistance they encountered then would've been planet-side.

Shivans, on the other hand, aren't planet-goers, that plus their subspace tech, shielding, weaponry & numbers probably took the Ancients by complete surprise.

[Vip]

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

"This 911 Emergency"
"OMG, we have this huge ass ship in Capella, it's just beating the living crap out of our juggeranut ! Please send in everything you have !"
"To all units, be advised, we have an unidentified craft of Terran design that has demolished one of our juggernauts. All available Sathanas units, please divert and head for Capella. Code 20-11."

Aboard one of the juggernauts...

"Hey Boss, what do we do ? I see a whole Fleet near the node. Do we destroy them ?"
"Nah, let's blow the sun. It'll teach'em a lesson, and I'll be home for dinner."

That's what happened there !

[Vip]

What's to say the Ancients didn't land on the planets and wage war on the ground?  I think only a few of their encounters with other species resulted in space combat, and they were probably much more inferior compared to the GTA and PVN.  Most of the resistance they encountered then would've been planet-side.

Shivans, on the other hand, aren't planet-goers, that plus their subspace tech, shielding, weaponry & numbers probably took the Ancients by complete surprise.

That's a good point. It's incredible that the Ancients' Empire, so vast and huge, was so easily reduced to a small size. Ancients probably were fooled by the Shivans; they believed that if the Shivans were not terrestrail, then they wouldn't come for them to the planet. Ooops, mistake. I think it's fair enough to say that most of the surviving Ancients fled to their homeworld, and therefore mae Shivan job so much easier. They could hit one target instead of annihilating seperate Fleets and/or colonies.

[Mobius]

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

Mobius? Me?

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

It was Hades!!!

What's to say the Ancients didn't land on the planets and wage war on the ground?  I think only a few of their encounters with other species resulted in space combat, and they were probably much more inferior compared to the GTA and PVN.  Most of the resistance they encountered then would've been planet-side.

Shivans, on the other hand, aren't planet-goers, that plus their subspace tech, shielding, weaponry & numbers probably took the Ancients by complete surprise.

I don't like the idea of a so weak Ancient fleet... they might have had super juggernauts and even bigger vessels, built in thousands of years. Why would we think of the Ancient fleet as a limited one?

That's a good point. It's incredible that the Ancients' Empire, so vast and huge, was so easily reduced to a small size. Ancients probably were fooled by the Shivans; they believed that if the Shivans were not terrestrail, then they wouldn't come for them to the planet. Ooops, mistake. I think it's fair enough to say that most of the surviving Ancients fled to their homeworld, and therefore mae Shivan job so much easier. They could hit one target instead of annihilating seperate Fleets and/or colonies.

The Shivans simply had the advantage of using shields and the Ancients were too cocky to use it themselves. Shields or not, however, they would have never survived to a prolonged war. Even if they had the technologies, they would have never secured a node, for example(who knows, their religion might have impeded it).

[Vip]

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

Mobius? Me?

Shivans are like the current USA.Bush thinks that the USA is the worlds police.The Shivans are the Space Police(TM).

It was Hades!!!

Hehe... ooops ? Sorry for that, writing when being tired isn't the brightest idea...

What's to say the Ancients didn't land on the planets and wage war on the ground?  I think only a few of their encounters with other species resulted in space combat, and they were probably much more inferior compared to the GTA and PVN.  Most of the resistance they encountered then would've been planet-side.

Shivans, on the other hand, aren't planet-goers, that plus their subspace tech, shielding, weaponry & numbers probably took the Ancients by complete surprise.

I don't like the idea of a so weak Ancient fleet... they might have had super juggernauts and even bigger vessels, built in thousands of years. Why would we think of the Ancient fleet as a limited one?

And why would we think of the Ancient fleet as a powerful one ? Why would they need juggernauts, if for thousands of year they had never encountered advanced life ? They didn't seem to meet any significant opposition, and corvettes/destroyers are far more practical for patrolling of such a vast empire.

The Shivans simply had the advantage of using shields and the Ancients were too cocky to use it themselves. Shields or not, however, they would have never survived to a prolonged war. Even if they had the technologies, they would have never secured a node, for example(who knows, their religion might have impeded it).

As far as we know, the Lucy is the only capship with shields in the Shivan fleet. Shields on fighters wouldn't be that much of a threat, so we can assume that the Ancients found out the shields' weakness as a way to fight the Lucy. If the ancient had some kind of beam weaponry, shields wouldn't present a problem. Without beams or something similar they could only watch as the Lucy rips apart their blockade and proceeds to the next node. Seeing how so many Knossos portals were still intact, it seems that the Shivans were right on their tailes.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Actually, there is no official canon pointing out that beam weaponry are effective against the Lucifer's shields. People just assume beams are powerful enough but we have no idea to what extent the Lucifer's shielding is capable of.

[Vip]

Actually, there is no official canon pointing out that beam weaponry are effective against the Lucifer's shields. People just assume beams are powerful enough but we have no idea to what extent the Lucifer's shielding is capable of.

Very true, however logic dictates that you don't place beams as the main weapon of a Lucy-killer (Colossus) if it's not going to work against a Lucy. I guess that the GTA and PVN could take enough scans of the Lucy shields to judge whether the beams would be good enough or not. Besides, I don't think a shield would be as powerful to remain intact after being hit with an energy of such output. Perhaps it could last for a shot or two, but I just won't believe that it could survivie multiple hits by BGreens or BFGreens

[Mobius]

Hehe... ooops ? Sorry for that, writing when being tired isn't the brightest idea...

No problem

And why would we think of the Ancient fleet as a powerful one ? Why would they need juggernauts, if for thousands of year they had never encountered advanced life ? They didn't seem to meet any significant opposition, and corvettes/destroyers are far more practical for patrolling of such a vast empire.

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years, our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life. [...]

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy, and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

And they were cocky and militaristic...I hardly accept the idea that they have never developed uber-warships. Pride was a valid reason to do that.

Actually, there is no official canon pointing out that beam weaponry are effective against the Lucifer's shields. People just assume beams are powerful enough but we have no idea to what extent the Lucifer's shielding is capable of.

You're right, but we should start considering probable theories, too. We can't leave our minds stuck on a few, poor canon informations. Beams are probably effective against the Lucifer shields.