Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: JF0603 on December 17, 2007, 02:52:48 pm
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finally got into this game after CP5670's brother was at my house but i absolutely suck online.
im looking for a good joystick for fs2 preferably under 75
any recommendations?
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I got a Cyborg Evo. Strange design but can be used for left handers and right handers. Works good for me.
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not under 75 but this is a great stick
(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3576/x52wd7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I also have a logitec wingman force - its no longer made though fs2 rocks with forcefeedback
the only forcefeedback hotas i know of is the thrustmaster afterburner:
http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=18&PlatformID=5
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someone told me that the cyborg is cheaply made and akward to use. have you had that experience? is the cyborg compatible with vista?
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NO WAY! The Cyborg EVO Force is better than anything that Logi**** can come up with, I've had three Logi****s break in quick succession before buying my EVO. Buy one. Period.
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but is it compatible with vista?
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yes it works with vista
ps: the wingman force was an awesome stick its a damm shame logitec stopped useing the cable pull system
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4429/logixv6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Logitech sticks do have better ergonomics (for right-handed people that is), but pure crap electronic quality control compared to Saitek sticks. Undoubtedly the sticks are assembled by small hands somewhere in Far East. For it's price, Cyborg Evo offers quite good combination of durability (electronically, the components won't go haywire as fast as all my Logitech sticks' components have) and accuracy.
Mechanically, the stick is not quite as durable as electronically - the return mechanism slowly reduces the thickness of the main shaft of the stick which has thus plastic "tube" around it, acting as a returner... and when the shaft wears out, the tube will get looser around it, which will increase the zone which offers no return force towards the center. This happens especially if you use the stick dry. But drop some machine oil or even WD-40 into the mechanism and it'll work smooth and long.
The trigger is also a point of risk to heavy-handed players who tend to forget that guns don't fire faster and gears won't change better no matter how hard you press the trigger. The actual button for the trigger is held inside the handle with pretty thin plastic support, and on my previous Cyborg Evo it eventually caved in during an intense dogfight on FS2_Open... this caused the trigger button to register badly, but it was fixable with duct tape (on the other hand, what isn't).
The way the twist handle is attached to the main gimbal shaft could be better made as well, it has a bit too much clearance to my liking. It causes to handle to move slightly before the actual gimbal and attached axis sensors start to move.
If there was a stick on the market with Logitech Extreme 3D series mechanical durability and ergonomy of the handle and Saitek's electronical quality, it would be full of win and I would get it immediately. But as it is, Saitek Cyborg Evo is definitely about the best stick you can buy in it's price range. All the ergonomy and mechanic integrity won't help as the electronics goes bye-bye... and getting the stick replaced time after time gets old pretty soon.
As to being supported by Vista, it uses a very generic USB interface and is prefectly recognized by default USB drivers of WinXP, and same holds true for Vista as far as I have tested it. I don't use Saitek's drivers since I do not see the need to use any profiles with a stick this simple.
If you want a really durable stick electronically, though, get something with no-touch axis sensors. Optical or Hall effect sensors don't wear in the same way the cheaper sensors that have touching surfaces and mechanical connection to the axis movement.
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compelling, i think i might buy it.
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Before the Saitek one I had two Logitech Joysticks.
The first one (thing the name was Wingman or so) was very good but it isn't produced anymore. Problem with it was that when I moved it was damaged so I had to find a new one.
The second was an Attack3. Started to break down after two month or so with going a bit to the left. I companseted it with allways pulling it a bit to the right but after some more time he finaly won't let me fly anywhere else then straight or left. Was anyoing as hell.
The Saitak one now holds his own since at least longer then the Attack but I hadn't much time to play so that dosn't mean much. But I talked to different people and they all agreed that for a lefthander there isn't any better.
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i just spent my cash on ch pro throttle, fighterstick and pro pedals, and called it a day.
most configurable sticks ever.
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... At 250$.
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ch is bloody expensive, i payed around $400 for my setup if you count the shipping costs.
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ch is bloody expensive, i payed around $400 for my setup if you count the shipping costs.
As I understand it CH is bulletproof so you can deflect large bullets and it will probably work for another 20 years.
I'm very happy with my Saitek X-52 but thats overkill for FreeSpace. Its great for other sims tho.
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using my ch stick makes me realize how much i truly hated saitek's single spring design. you just cant feel the difference between roll and pitch. saitek wins for comfortable grips though. but that and looks is the only thing the saitek has. the ch is a simmers stick, hardware trim, super-customizable, and unlike saitek its american made.
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What CH stick/configuration do you have?
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Comfortable grips, looks, and relatively inexpensive is what Saitek has. Also has a greater range of options for the people who aren't completely serious and are not willing to spend $400 on a full CH setup. Can't argue with the quality of the CH products...like I said...they are bulletproof from everything that I've ever read about them.
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I upgraded from my aging X36 (still functional, gotta love it) to an X52 Pro about a month ago (found it for like...120), and am totally loving it. The LEDs are a bit over the top, but I do happen to like green, so it's all good.
But if you're not going for a HOTAS setup, I'd toss my vote in for the Cyborg Evo since I've been pretty satisfied with Saitek's stuff thus far. I've only messed with a shelf display of the Evo a bit, but it seemed pretty good - I actually really liked all the adjustments you could make to it.
If I had the money, though, I'd totally give a CH setup a go. :D
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What CH stick/configuration do you have?
fighterstick, pro throttle and pro pedals. was gonna buy the flight sim yoke too, but i decided i already spent too much money :D
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Hmm... any way to change my X45 so it doesn't require throwing the stick to extremes to dogfight? If you adjust it too much towards being sensitive, it drifts to the left. My problem is, to reverse direction, by the time I get the stick to the full opposite direction, it's way too late. With a mouse, I have extremely snappy response, which I love... only to lose my advantage when I have to pick it up to move the mouse down so I can drag it again. :(
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the x45 still used pots, which tend to decay. could try getting a new set. you may also want to consider removing the springs (i removed mine on my x45).
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I'm running with the Saitek x52, and I paid about 75 total for it.
Check out the Saitek store, and look for the refurbished section. If you're "thrifty" like me (or poor... like me), you can pick up some great stuff for cheap there. The thing feels new, too, and I haven't had any problems so far.
All the buttons are supremely useful, too! I can share my setup if anyone wants.
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Hmm... any way to change my X45 so it doesn't require throwing the stick to extremes to dogfight? If you adjust it too much towards being sensitive, it drifts to the left. My problem is, to reverse direction, by the time I get the stick to the full opposite direction, it's way too late. With a mouse, I have extremely snappy response, which I love... only to lose my advantage when I have to pick it up to move the mouse down so I can drag it again. :(
No! Blasphemy! Drifting to the left is like the trademark of Logi****s! Might try re-calibrating it and adjusting the normal/center/whateverit'scalled.
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Might try re-calibrating it and adjusting the normal/center/whateverit'scalled.
First thing I tried.
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I've been using a Saitek Cyborg Gold for years. It's a shame they discontinued the series; the really nifty part is, you can customize the joystick with a hex screw driver that actually attaches to the joystick housing.
Namely you can set the height of the hand-support, reconfigure it for either left or right handed use (you can switch the throttle too), change the inclination of the thumb buttons and the hat. All in all it's pretty handy for everyone.
However as good as CH sticks are, they're no competition for the die-hard Thrustmaster models:
http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/
Here you find modded Thrustmaster Cougars. Almost all serious mods use hall sensors, however there's something even more die-hard: a force sensitive joystick. Yep, no deflection; the input depends on how hard you push the stick in a given direction.
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cougars are nice but hard to get ahold of and hella expensive. something about a joystick with metal gimbals is very appealing and i like the idea of a joystick which can be modded to hell.
every joystick ive owned has left something to be desired. alot of the usb sticks, ch included, seem to have 8 bit axes. where most software supports about a 16 bit axis, for example sdl seems to pass axis data to games as an Sint16 data type. most of the legacy gameports were on 16 bit soundcards and therefore were 16 bit axes. so apis accept 16 bit axis data. but all the people who make usb joysticks want to keep their expense to a minimum and use a less capable micro controller and encode the axis data as 8 bit.
if i were to design a stick, id use metal gimbals, metal switches and buttons, id even make the cases metal. id have 16 bit axes, leather grips, hardware trim on all axes, and toggleable hardware detents on all main axes which can be switched on and off as needed. also spring tension and friction settings on main axes. as an added bonus id make the whole setup wireless. it would come with rudder pedals that actually look and feel like rudder pedals. id also raise the joystick handle a few inches above the gimbals. on alot of joysticks to get the full vertical range requires considerable handstrain. id reduce the range of motion while making the handle a bit longer. of course the whole thing would sell for a grand :D
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I've been using a Saitek Cyborg Gold for years. It's a shame they discontinued the series; the really nifty part is, you can customize the joystick with a hex screw driver that actually attaches to the joystick housing.
Namely you can set the height of the hand-support, reconfigure it for either left or right handed use (you can switch the throttle too), change the inclination of the thumb buttons and the hat. All in all it's pretty handy for everyone.
The EVO is pretty adjustable. It has all of the same stuff except the adjustable throttle and screwdriver.
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<snip>
You know, Nuke, if you made a setup for every price range that was a decent, sturdy, accurate setup, you'd be rich... you need to get ahold of a manufacturing place and patent some designs. Have one $70 - $100 joystick, one $140-$200 joystick / maybe HOTAs, one $300 HOTAS with rudders, one $700-$1000 built just the way you'd do it for yourself.... I think you'd make a lot of money. Make it 16-bit USB... s'pose you could also include a gameport port and make your stick capable of emulating any other decent joystick out there. XD I tell ya, you'd be rich! ;) The people have no decent alternatives; you'd blow the competition out of the water.
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If it was that easy M$ would have it monopolized already.
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<snip>
You know, Nuke, if you made a setup for every price range that was a decent, sturdy, accurate setup, you'd be rich... you need to get ahold of a manufacturing place and patent some designs. Have one $70 - $100 joystick, one $140-$200 joystick / maybe HOTAs, one $300 HOTAS with rudders, one $700-$1000 built just the way you'd do it for yourself.... I think you'd make a lot of money. Make it 16-bit USB... s'pose you could also include a gameport port and make your stick capable of emulating any other decent joystick out there. XD I tell ya, you'd be rich! ;) The people have no decent alternatives; you'd blow the competition out of the water.
*already started reading books on usb, several wireless standards, and standardized hid interfaces. im sure i could program the machining tools. surely its something i could do. but sence i have zero desire to do anything with my life il just sit on the sidelines and ***** about how every product on the market sucks :D
If it was that easy M$ would have it monopolized already.
joysticks was actually one of the things that microsoft did right. i swear that my old first gen sidewinder force feedback was the most accurate joystick ive ever used other than my ch stick. it was the optical sensors and midi port hacking (ms hacked the midi interface on soundcards to allow for more information to be sent) which made it a kickass stick.
*error fixed*
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I never said that!
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There's no market for joysticks though, because there aren't any games that require them, and no one makes games that require joysticks since no one has a joystick, since there aren't any games that need joysticks...
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I never said that!
oops, error fixed. i was half asleep or on something :D
There's no market for joysticks though, because there aren't any games that require them, and no one makes games that require joysticks since no one has a joystick, since there aren't any games that need joysticks...
there also seems to be very few games that support them. let alone require them. which is unfortunate. its not like joystick interface code is hard to write.
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@Nuke: Heard of XPadder?
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seeing as i usually have at least 3 or maybe 4 input utils running in the background at once when i play most games, i dont think adding another util to the mix is a solution to the problem. the ch software is plenty capable of outputting keystrokes and mouse movements. but if a game requires such, then it already shows signs of piss poor input code.
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cougars are nice but hard to get ahold of and hella expensive. something about a joystick with metal gimbals is very appealing and i like the idea of a joystick which can be modded to hell.
every joystick ive owned has left something to be desired. alot of the usb sticks, ch included, seem to have 8 bit axes. where most software supports about a 16 bit axis, for example sdl seems to pass axis data to games as an Sint16 data type. most of the legacy gameports were on 16 bit soundcards and therefore were 16 bit axes. so apis accept 16 bit axis data. but all the people who make usb joysticks want to keep their expense to a minimum and use a less capable micro controller and encode the axis data as 8 bit.
if i were to design a stick, id use metal gimbals, metal switches and buttons, id even make the cases metal. id have 16 bit axes, leather grips, hardware trim on all axes, and toggleable hardware detents on all main axes which can be switched on and off as needed. also spring tension and friction settings on main axes. as an added bonus id make the whole setup wireless. it would come with rudder pedals that actually look and feel like rudder pedals. id also raise the joystick handle a few inches above the gimbals. on alot of joysticks to get the full vertical range requires considerable handstrain. id reduce the range of motion while making the handle a bit longer. of course the whole thing would sell for a grand :D
MJoy is a joystick controller, with very powerful capabilities, several people use it to build their own cockpit.
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/mind.htm (http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/mind.htm)
The original site (mindgaus) disappeared off the face of the net, but this mirror is still online.
Happy Modding!
EDIT - New stuff:
http://www.peschuster.de/elektronik/mjoy16.php
This page has the documentation for MJoy16, big brother of the MJoy. It has awsome capabilities.