Author Topic: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga  (Read 11830 times)

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Offline Captain Moran

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The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Ok, recruits. Time to study up.

http://gizmodo.com/5426453/the-physics-of-space-battles

The interesting thing is that WC DOES follow some of his premises regarding ship design. "I conclude that the big ships would have many weapons, pointed in many directions; the small ships would have a few weapons, with the main weapon systems pointed in one direction."

Trouble is his ships would not look nearly as FRAKKING COOL as the ones in WC.

Moran out.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 02:39:59 pm by Captain Moran »
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Offline headdie

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Re: The physics of space battles
that took a little while to read but to be hones it is worth it and a very plausible scenario, well thought out a definite read for anyone thinking about a "realistic" mod.

The bit about gyros is useful enough i think i might incorporate it into the little project I'm working on
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: The physics of space battles
Though I might not be involved in WCS...but what exactly does this have to do with the mod?

 

Offline Captain Moran

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Re: The physics of space battles
Though I might not be involved in WCS...but what exactly does this have to do with the mod?

Ummmm. Well, Wing Commander involves, er, battles in space. I thought some science behind the fiction might be interesting.

 



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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: The physics of space battles
So does Star Trek, and Star Wars, and Babylon 5, and FreeSpace, and Battlestar Galactica, and Stargate: SG-1, the subject sounds more like a General Discussion topic than a Wing Commander topic.

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
It belongs into WCS section - simply because it belongs here.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
It's a decent analysis. Makes little mention of two critical components, though: heat and drive systems.

I don't think manned fighters are likely at all.

 
Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
For short range patrols a fighter controlled remotely is better no limits on G-force less mass.
But once you start getting a good distance away from the mother ship the time the time it takes
radio signals to go back and forth gives the manned fighter a reaction time bonus. This can already be seen in multi players games were the difference between a 50ms and 200ms ping decides out comes of rounds.

There is also the fact we have been able to jam radio signals since the 60s A manned fighter that losses communication is disadvantaged but can still operate has a single unit. Remote controlled drones how ever become helpless targets.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
In which case I doubt that fighters, period, are likely at all.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
 :rolleyes:

Still trying to convert us to your missile boats?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Not in particular, no, but from an engineering standpoint the consensus seems to be that manned fighters don't make much sense in space.

The big reason that fighters are useful on Earth is because they can go over the horizon very rapidly - they can move in a way that ground or sea-based craft can't. There is no horizon in space, and everything moves the same way.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Small craft is hard to hit and easy to mask with jamming systems, so if you have good ECM and decent engines, they make sense.
A battleship needs more energy to change it's vector of movement and is a bigger target for manual aiming, while fighter can quickly change speed and direction of it's flight.
Also, consider that the longer the warship is, the more limited is it's turning due to G forces experienced at the farthest point of a ship. A fighter can turn quickly, because it's pilot would be not far from it's center of mass, so G forces would be smaller. GTD Raynor's crew close to forward beam cannon would experience about 10G when turning at 11dps, while fighters can turn much faster (I'm giving you the values for Raynor, because I calculated them only for it). Also, fighter pilot can be in seated position all the time, when warship's crew may need to stand up sometimes (for example to path up damage), which further limits manouverability (not many people can stand when a ship is pulling 4G). Not to mention fighters can enter atmosphere, which extends their usefullness.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
No, actually, we're not really certain that a small ship is harder to hit in space. Especially not when your weapons are big fields of debris, lasers, and missiles.

It's not clear that ECM would work particularly well in space either. We can't make the assumption that stealth works at all up there.

Turning rates aren't that important; this isn't the atmosphere. What matters is acceleration, delta-V, 'smash'. Space fights won't involve turning; they will likely involve ships with massive relative velocities jousting at each other one in (probably mutually destructive) pass.

The most crippling problem is that fighters cannot carry enough fuel to do anything useful on the solar system scale, particularly if you handicap them with the mass, power and acceleration limits imposed by a human pilot.

All of the above carry the caveat 'at least with current technology.'


 

Offline Aginor

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Concerning stelth and space combat:

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/

especially under "common misconceptions", then look for "stealth"
--> http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Yeah, I'm a reasonably big fan of that page. Seems decently well-sourced.

 

Offline Aginor

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
I already spent days on it. It's great.
btw: Does anyone here know Infinity?
http://www.infinity-universe.com/

A lot of topics similar to this one is discussed in their gameplay forums. I'm totally waiting for that game.
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Offline KeldorKatarn

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
I'm in general not a big fan of scientists or scientific websites / books / whatever which excell in telling people what is impossible.
Thinking that you can actually use the current knowledge of mankind to predict was it totally impossible to do is just one thing: arrogant as hell. How do these people want to know what is possible in the future. 50 years ago we were happy to have a nuclear reaction working. 100 years ago cutting an atomic core in half was considered totally impossible. (don't nail me down on this one, if anybody had a theory on this already a 100 years ago, I didn't look it up, it's just an example to get the point across)

There is one single rule in any science: Any law we have is only a theory. You consider it to be true if it has a reasonable empiric background and hasn't been proven to be false. And that's the entire issue.. you cannot prove anything to be true in physics. you can only prove it to be false. newton's laws of mechanics, the simple acceleration formula was considered to be true until einstein came along with his theory that refined that appraoch. newton's theorems are still basically true, unless you approach light speed. Who's to say there will never be a refinement of einstein's theories that have a loophole to play a trick somehow. It might be the case that nothing can travel faster than light. But we cannot prove that. We can only state that so far nobody has managed to prove otherwise.

I'm not even saying that it is arrogant to say that we probably won't find a solution in the next 100 years. But to say that something will still be impossible in 5000 years... that's not just arrogant, that's simply incredibly stupid. That is saying just one thing "I already know everything and you scifi guys are idiots".

Well sorry folks. I consider anyone an idiot who thinks he's smart enough to predict what will be possible in a thousand years.

 

Offline Aginor

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
Well, part of what you said is wrong. You have to distinguish between what is a theory, and what is a law in science. That's quite a big difference.

And it explains your newton-einstein-example quite well.
search this page
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html
for "It's Just A Theory" and read downwards from there on. It sums it up a little. (just two paragraphs)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:02:01 am by Aginor »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
I'm in general not a big fan of scientists or scientific websites / books / whatever which excell in telling people what is impossible.
Thinking that you can actually use the current knowledge of mankind to predict was it totally impossible to do is just one thing: arrogant as hell. How do these people want to know what is possible in the future. 50 years ago we were happy to have a nuclear reaction working. 100 years ago cutting an atomic core in half was considered totally impossible. (don't nail me down on this one, if anybody had a theory on this already a 100 years ago, I didn't look it up, it's just an example to get the point across)

There is one single rule in any science: Any law we have is only a theory. You consider it to be true if it has a reasonable empiric background and hasn't been proven to be false. And that's the entire issue.. you cannot prove anything to be true in physics. you can only prove it to be false. newton's laws of mechanics, the simple acceleration formula was considered to be true until einstein came along with his theory that refined that appraoch. newton's theorems are still basically true, unless you approach light speed. Who's to say there will never be a refinement of einstein's theories that have a loophole to play a trick somehow. It might be the case that nothing can travel faster than light. But we cannot prove that. We can only state that so far nobody has managed to prove otherwise.

I'm not even saying that it is arrogant to say that we probably won't find a solution in the next 100 years. But to say that something will still be impossible in 5000 years... that's not just arrogant, that's simply incredibly stupid. That is saying just one thing "I already know everything and you scifi guys are idiots".

Well sorry folks. I consider anyone an idiot who thinks he's smart enough to predict what will be possible in a thousand years.

All of the above carry the caveat 'at least with current technology.'

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The physics of space battles as it relates to ships in Wing Commander Saga
*yawns*

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


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