[Knight Templar]

The Ancients killed things. This was more or less described in the Ancient Monolouges when they were talking about how they owned everything that came along untill they met the Shivans and got their sorry ass handed to them.

Doesn't sound too peaceful to me.

Woolies Quote of Topace: You've not heard of inferno then?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
They said that the results of the attempts to rebuld the Hades were classified level Omega and the Mara's specs at level Psi. Why would the specs of a Shivan fighter be more classified than the blueprints for a superdestroyer?

When do they say that about attempts to rebuild the Hades?

See my problem is while that makes sense it seems odd to me that data on the mara is so highly classified. Psi is only one step below Omega. If the scale runs the other way the data about the mara is barely a secret at all and that makes a little more sense cause otherwise every single scientist working on preparing the mara for "Lion's Den" must have clearance only one level lower than the security council of the GTVA (Who I'm assuming all have Omega level clearance if the scale works in the direction you've just said).

 The only other mention of a classification level I can remember is the one about the Colossus (which was level rho). Now it seemed strange to me that the building of the colossus is less of a secret than the stuff about the mara.

[Assassin]

Maybe :V: just picked cool sounding Greek letters, without thinking up an actual system of classification levels.. it happens in games.

This knowledge has led to a good story for a campaign I am working on. Excellent.

[CP5670]

On the topic of the Mara, that tech description appears to have been written just after the Vigilant incident, where the fighter had been encountered for the first time. Its stats would probably have been released soon after but I guess they forgot to update the tech entry. The greek letter scale is indeed running in the downward direction with omega probably being the highest level of secrecy, which can be seen from the shivan comm node entry.

[Xelion]

I don't know how long TopAce has spent with the Fs Community or Game, but I agree with him...I would say in my opinion its more of an instinct that the Ancients were a peaceful race and perhaps some were rogue...and thats what drove the Shivans to eliminate them..remember the cutscenes in Fs1 were broad, & to comprehend them as they were to be ::V:: I think would have to answer to a few questions..

[Flaser]

I think your opinion is based on what little image we have of the Ancients - and it is er....Greekish.
On the other hand I have a lot better explanation - they were like the Romans.
Very advanced, enlightened; but meanwhile firecre and dominating, enslaving the whole "barbarian" world - or destroying it.

So they could be noble and high, as well as brutal and opressing!

[Xelion]

Wouldn't it be more likely to say that the Shivans were Roman, yet of course we know as much about the Ancients as we know about the Shivans but I would assume one is good one is bad or the story wouldn't exist...

[Xelion]

Heres another thing for phlisophy.. Lets use us Humans for example if we were to show the general popluation of the planet as being good and then a rogue like AL-Quaida..of course this would mean that if there were some cosmic destroyers out there trying to cleanse the universe of war would they not take out all humanity instead of only just wiping out the rogue enemy. Just like the Shivans took out Vasuda - in some context that was wrong because killing innocent 'civilians' who may have nothing to do with the war die. Yet it was what the Shivans done. So it could be all possible that the Ancients could have had a massive rogue power that dominated for some time until GOOD like always or most of the time prevail...

this is what I believe and unless a better example that somehow interest me nothing is gonna change my mind...well perhaps the moderation of this post into glyphs

[Flaser]

What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.
The same goes for Vasudans.
If you think about it the Vasudan-Human war was just as bloody as the great wa, yet you don't speak of evil Vasudans ect.

What I think is part of you problem is what Henry Kissinger wrote in his book: History of Diplomacy.
The USA unlike other states does no condone the unethical politics a country has to pursue for its own sake.
This dates back to Wilson - who wanted a "fair" peace after WWI - the UN is part of his legacy. He could do so, since America was pritty much an isolated mighty empire, while in Europe only the opposing wills and forces of different countries maintained a balance of power, ergo peace. England was in fact bent on keeping that balance for its power could exist only in a similar environment.

Back to the topic:
To put it blunt, Americans expect the same ethics from a counrty as from a person.
This creates a profound situation, like in WWII Germany could be easly dubbed evil and deformed - as the Holocaust would be a very good legitimation - , but later in the cold war, America herself was in crisis, because its power was opposed by the USSR's might.

So in order to be hostile and stand up against it, the communists had to be portrayed as evil, because the general ethic demanded it.

Even Americans were charged and even sentenced to death, in a eearly similar manner to the communists' methods for their opposition of this general belief, since then they must have been communist spys, advocates of devil...ect.ect.

If you watch closely the same has been done with Iraq.
However until it was necessary to strike - Saddam became to unreliable - America simply put up with him, as a not too bad fellow...one who killed around a million people in his own counrty!!

Now, please don't blame me, for I'm not blaming America, I only try to put a spotlight on a certain character of their internatinal policy that would be strange for people in Europe.
Personally I do agree with invading Iraq, however I don't agree with its legitimation.

Politics aside, now I see the same has been done to the Shivans, while the legacy of the T-V War, or the Unification War are left in a mist, since it's not relevant anymore.

I think we don't have to follow that pattern, since politics in FS were pretty much European type, but with a strong American legitimation to the actions of GTA and later GTVA - which indeed turns out to be hardly fail-safe, like in the case of the GTI who wanted to save humanity no matter what.

Bosch is an entierly different person in viewed in such manner...someone who was willing to sacrifice the alliance for another.

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Flaser
I think your opinion is based on what little image we have of the Ancients - and it is er....Greekish.
On the other hand I have a lot better explanation - they were like the Romans.
Very advanced, enlightened; but meanwhile firecre and dominating, enslaving the whole "barbarian" world - or destroying it.

So they could be noble and high, as well as brutal and opressing!

This fits well with the cutscenes.

Originally posted by Max
Wouldn't it be more likely to say that the Shivans were Roman...

Originally posted by Max
*Argument that maybe the Shivans have both good and evil motivations*

Originally posted by Flaser
What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.

*bunch of political stuff*...Politics aside, now I see the same has been done to the Shivans

I think all of the above are rabbit-trail arguments.  To understand who and what the Shivans are, we would do well to consider what Volition was trying to tell us when they picked the name Shivan to begin with.  

All this talk about politics and/or retribution and/or "civilised barbarianism" is completely foreign to V's conception of the the Shivans.  They are the Destroyers.  (As a side effect, the Terran and Vasudan civlisations were able to arise where the Ancients had been before, of course, but nevertheless, the Shivans are the Destroyers.)  They are not comparable to human political situations the way the Ancients and Vasudans are.  V wrote the Ancients and Vasudans such that they are like us and comparable with us.  V intentionally left the Shivans unlike us and incomparable to us.  Thus, trying to discuss them in terms of our human politics "doesn't fit" with V's Shivans.

[Garfield3d]

Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
This fits well with the cutscenes.

I think all of the above are rabbit-trail arguments.  To understand who and what the Shivans are, we would do well to consider what Volition was trying to tell us when they picked the name Shivan to begin with.  

All this talk about politics and/or retribution and/or "civilised barbarianism" is completely foreign to V's conception of the the Shivans.  They are the Destroyers.  (As a side effect, the Terran and Vasudan civlisations were able to arise where the Ancients had been before, of course, but nevertheless, the Shivans are the Destroyers.)  They are not comparable to human political situations the way the Ancients and Vasudans are.  V wrote the Ancients and Vasudans such that they are like us and comparable with us.  V intentionally left the Shivans unlike us and incomparable to us.  Thus, trying to discuss them in terms of our human politics "doesn't fit" with V's Shivans.

Hi, um, I'm... new here so... um...

While Shiva possesses the capability to destroy, the Hindi view her with respect with both a proper role in life and "regenerative" properties. It is hard to typify Shiva as some sort of great evil or a devil-figure in the world specifically because although death and destruction have grizzly images in our psyche, Shiva is merely carrying out a critical aspect in life.

While the Ancients had the initial nomenclature of the Shivans as the "Destroyers," the monologues in Freespace 1 articulated the Shivans more as a tool or mechanism in the universe, rather than a malignant force. And as history has shown, it is too easy to give something a misnomer only to have society better understand it later (Native Americans, Starfish, etc...)

I don't think it would really matter too much that the Shivans are extraterrestrial in terms of Flaser's explanation of socio-political relations. The fact that Shivans are so mysterious might even help augment his point. While we aren't given a particularly introspective viewpoint on Vasudan and Terran social perspectives, I think we can all agree that GTVA pilots could at least call the Shivans "destroyers." We didn't have a situation where the GTVA was impelling emotions with phrases like "They want to take away our way of life" or "They hate us for what we are." The Shivans were simply destroyers that had no ugly characterizations to latch onto other than the fact that they wanted to annihilate each race.

(Edited  once because I misspelled Flaser's name)

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Garfield3d


Hi, um, I'm... new here so... um...

While Shiva possesses the capability to destroy, the Hindi view her with respect with both a proper role in life and "regenerative" properties. It is hard to typify Shiva as some sort of great evil or a devil-figure in the world specifically because although death and destruction have grizzly images in our psyche, Shiva is merely carrying out a critical aspect in life.

While the Ancients had the initial nomenclature of the Shivans as the "Destroyers," the monologues in Freespace 1 articulated the Shivans more as a tool or mechanism in the universe, rather than a malignant force. And as history has shown, it is too easy to give something a misnomer only to have society better understand it later (Native Americans, Starfish, etc...)

I don't think it would really matter too much that the Shivans are extraterrestrial in terms of Flaser's explanation of socio-political relations. The fact that Shivans are so mysterious might even help augment his point. While we aren't given a particularly introspective viewpoint on Vasudan and Terran social perspectives, I think we can all agree that GTVA pilots could at least call the Shivans "destroyers." We didn't have a situation where the GTVA was impelling emotions with phrases like "They want to take away our way of life" or "They hate us for what we are." The Shivans were simply destroyers that had no ugly characterizations to latch onto other than the fact that they wanted to annihilate each race.

(Edited  once because I misspelled Flaser's name)

Exits are to the sides and rear.  Personal flamethrowers are located beneath your seat in case of emergency or naughty disposition.  If you run into any Shivans while crawling through the ductwork, it's probably just Carl.  Give him your lunch, back away slowly, and you'll be fine.

Anyway, a few points : 1) Shiva is actually male; 2) Hindi is a language, not a people group; 3) generalisations about how Hindus relate to Shiva are difficult to make, since "Hinduism" is actually a variety of religions; 4) Volition's take on this issue, emphasising the destructive aspect and leaving the regenerative aspect as a side effect, was all I was talking about; 5) otherwise, we are actually agreed in discussion of Shiva; 6) my point about Flaser's politics-oriented discussion of the Shivans is that trying to find such explanations for them runs counter to everything that Volition was trying to do with them---I am talking about the entire literary creation, not merely what goes on inside this imagined universe.  The motivations of the Shivans cannot be explained to us as players, not because the Shivans can't have any within the imagined universe, but because to do so would twist and distort V's creation away from what they intended.

[Tiara]

What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.

Oooowww... yeah, the argument that the Shivans are just "preparing" the Vasudans and Terrans for something yet to come! I'd like to see a campaign about that...

hmmmm...

[Flaser]

Prepare...no I don't think so.
Actually I have an idea that explains somewhat the Shivan behaviour - although I posted it for n-times, maybe someone will pick it up, or at least argue.

Subspace is a paralel universe with our own.
Accourding to loop-theory all the elementary particles are present in 10 dimensions, 4 of which are the usual space-time we experience, the rest 6 are folded up in tiny loops, that have very little effect on the usual life.
Subspace is when those paralel dimensions form a space where travel can be achieved, however, most object don't have their proportions extending among those dimensions - so they have to "turn into" subspace.
For doing that subspace has tobe aligned with normal space - the warp in other words.
Gravity already bends subspace and therefore makes the whole process easier - this is the reason why intra-system jumps are easier, while inter-system jumps are so demanding, this also explains why are we always near a planet or nebula.
Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass.
However subspace can be just as easly shattered if bended the wrong way.
The problem is that any vessel passing through subspace ends up polluting it - which is risky.
Therefore humans and Vasudans are risking the existence of subspace - that's why Shivan engines glow red, they are really low-emission.
Anyone entering subspace puts a whole area of subspace in danger, since the effect can spread through entire systems, therefore the Shivans limit the use of subspace to themselves as much as possible.
They hunted down the Ancients when they started using subspace.

[Tiara]

OR... you could see that Shivans are just the bad guys in a game

Anyway, I don't like the idea of Shivans being from another dimension. And mostly its because I wouldn't like it for the game as that would mean you'd never be able to enter shivan space as they have none in "normal" space.

Also, your explaination sucks as I has some key unsupported facts such as

- "Nodes are near planet/neb". In FS there are more then a few missions where nodes are in the middle of nowhere.
- "Subspace travel pollutes Subspace". How? Why? Any supporting arguements for that? You shouldn't use a theory in a theory.
- "Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass." See point one. Nodes aren't neccesarily near objects with a large mass.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by karajorma


You sure of that? I've never been able to figure out in which direction the classification went

Considering, everything on the Sathanas (and the Shivan Comm Node, for that matter) is classified Level Omega, I'd say it goes from Alpha to Omega

[Flaser]

Originally posted by Tiara
OR... you could see that Shivans are just the bad guys in a game

Anyway, I don't like the idea of Shivans being from another dimension. And mostly its because I wouldn't like it for the game as that would mean you'd never be able to enter shivan space as they have none in "normal" space.

Also, your explaination sucks as I has some key unsupported facts such as

- "Nodes are near planet/neb". In FS there are more then a few missions where nodes are in the middle of nowhere.
- "Subspace travel pollutes Subspace". How? Why? Any supporting arguements for that? You shouldn't use a theory in a theory.
- "Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass." See point one. Nodes aren't neccesarily near objects with a large mass.

No, no, no and once again no.

I NEVER said Shivans lived in subspace, you're confusing my theory with a different popular belief.
I didn't say nodes are close to mass - I said they are points in space where an intersystem jump is possible, because the gravitational pull opens it up. I did't say they were necesserly very close to a mass - BTW all nodes are close to a star or nebula - therefore the later is also true in a sense.
Moreover sometimes the place where the gravitational pull is the greatest is in open space because more than one planetoid is involved.

Here's the data from the tech room.

"In simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed."
-this fits in nicely with the 10 dimensional loop theory. It is among those extra, other times closed loops of dimensions where subspace exists.

"A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold." - the ship converts its proportions in normal space into subspace dimensions, in effect it turns into the subspace in a manner you'd take a left turn on a road.
Let me give another parallel - if we were living in a 2D world, turning into another 2D plane would mean a rotation paralell to our own reality. A similar thing happens wiht subspace among at least 3 dimensions.

"Two types of jumps are possible.

First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system."
-For intrasystem jumps the presense of intense gravitonal field - ergo mass is required. This is the whole basis for the later point of my arguement. Gravity already alines subspace to an ammount, therfor to make inter-system jumps a lot more energy has to be used.
It's easiest to do it where the gravity is already more or less present, this leads to the designation of nodes.

"Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.

The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years."
-This is the arguament for your later statement. Yes nodes are instable.

I'm putting forth my later part of my theory, which I omitted for the sake that people don't like to read something raving for pages.

In a subspace tunnel - I hope you're not going to argue about their existence - Subspace is circular amond the edges.
The tunnel is actually s straint between to gravitational forces. Energy is present as electromagnetic waves - EMW for short - which varies from light to x-ray particles and other charged particles.
EMWs have a mess of their own, therefore they influence the tunnel - however they rarely stay in the tunnel, however if they are emmited normal to the tunnel they end up forming rings, which take place in the middle of the tunnel.
During thousands of years huge ammounts of energies can be traped inside a tunnel - some of the rings start swing inside the tunnel, lenghtening the reinforced part.
In effect these rings form the framework of the tunnel - these are tre things seen inside the subspace tunnel.
However the complex that the rings fomr can have it's own irregularities, once we speak of something with frequency and resonance and an immense array of stabile/semi-stabile/semi-chaotic structures are possible.

If a ship passes thorugh subspace it's mass affects the tunnel, but it's minimal compared the EMW frame.
However the emmited EMW can increase the chaotic tendencies inside the tunnel, creating huge subspace maelstorms.

This explains the warying nature of subspace nodes.

The Knossos provided an additional pull at one end of a tunnel, clearing it from EMW debris.

With huge ammoung of energies a tunnel can be created almost anywhere, since there's no limit to the size of the EMW structure.
This happened in Capella.

[Tiara]

1). Its still all speculation on existing data. Nothing is proven.
2). You take this too seriously.
3). I have no time or desire to go through the numerous flaws I detected in your explaination.
4). You take this too seriously.

Also, you said Shivans limit the use of subspace travel. Bull, just look at the massive incursions into Terran space with massive armadas and 20 Saths.

Ow, and did I mention that you take this too seriously?

[Flaser]

....
..
.

Well, that wented some of that pressure...too bad for my carpet.

I do take it seriously, because the manner in which we deal with subspace can define the very basis of FS canon.

Their massive incursion is one thing - they have developed engines that put minimal strain on subspace - they have the knwoledge how subspace truly works...
However other races don't and in their meddling with subspace can destroy whole areas.

The Shivan limit the use of subspace - by anyone else.
Maybe they treat them as barbars desecrating their wholy temple.

The whole idea of subspace is just speculation...

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Flaser
The whole idea of subspace is just speculation...

Exactly, and though I don't share your views I respect them