[THE N00B]

Its not so much that it prepares you completely, but at least you have combat experience; youve been in a firefight before, youve had AF beams pulsing at you, youve had fighters chasing you...etc.

In conflikts with pirates, the full GTVA-Warmashine doesn't get much experience. Only some of then, not much Soliders. Or a complete Fleet attacks a single ship. But then there is no realy experience as you sayed.
And how often a AF Beam pulsed a Pilot? One time? How often a Pilot is fighing for live or death this way?
Do you think the Pirate will keep fighing, if he see there is no way to win? Do you think a Admiral wants a fight to death, if he can make the Pirates surrender?

You know what i mean? It is a complete other kind of fight.

[wtf_cl0vvn]

Well, it IS a firefight...you cant ignore the experience that it gives you.

Anyhow, my point was that the whole NTF rebellion did more harm than good. The attrition rate of pilots was just way too high to justify that. Plus the fact that they brought the whole shivan issue on their heads.

[aldo_14]

They get experienced before they get killed.....  fine, then, trained soldiers with some degree of low level experience.  It's not, I think, historically unfounded to suggest long, full-on 'total' wars tend to see attrition forcing the sides into using less and less adept soldiers as manpower and time dwindle.

This I can agree with to an extent. There is a period after commitment to combat for the first time where effectiveness grows, then it starts to drop off sharply unless the unit is pulled off the line. For WWII the US Army pegged the average cycle at roughly 45 days on the line. However, this is combat fatigue, not the loss of experienced people. Pushed far enough it will become the loss of experienced people when the effectiveness of the unit collapses (which was 90 days according to the study cited above). The law of averages basically ensures that as long as you have a significant number of survivors your number of experienced soldiers will increase.

While it is fair to say this does not appear to be historically borne out by US WWII experience, it must also be pointed out that this problem could be charged to the replacement system in place at that time, which was described in postwar studies as "the numbers racket" and bitterly indicted for its failures both at the replacement depot and in keeping units on the line without rest for much longer than they should have been. The British Army did much better in this particular area. The Wehrmacht's system hasn't apparently been studied much (perhaps the records are lost?), but as any Russian soldier could attest, despite continual defeats since Stalingrad the Germans grew in technical proficiency despite shrinking in numbers.

Much of the commentary about the collapse of the skill level in German forces in WWII misses a key point that rather than a collapse of regular army or Waffen SS units' skills, it was based on the fact that they were encountering a totally new set of troops, the Volksgrenadiers and other ad-hoc creations being new and not of the same calibur.

Wasn't that sort of my point?  It was certainly meant to be, anyways, although perhaps it wasn't clear.  I agree troops will gain experience; what I'm saying is that, as more and more are dying, you need more and more troops.  and the more pressure you're under, the less time you have to train new troops, so the army on average decreases in experience and ability.  Plus, it also means you either commit your best troops into the line of fire, or use inexperienced and weaker divisions whose said weakness and inexperience can lead to defeat.  Basically, that in a full-on war (which we probably haven't seen, as westerners, for decades - perhaps since Vietnam?), you can't replace experience at the rate it's lost.  I don't think that's unfair to say.

(moreso, isn't "steel my soldiers hearts" about a US division on and after D-Day?  That's scarcely the start of the war - the US war, perhaps, but not the allied war in Europe)

It is the start of large-scale ground combat for the Western Allies. This is a telling point, actually. The British Army had not committed large numbers of its troops to the Med mainly because of US threats to send all their people to the Pacific if the Brits weren't going to get serious about a cross-Channel invasion, and frankly the Brits hadn't done particularly well up to that point in the war; their major victory at El Alamein was against an outmanned and chronically undersupplied Afrika Corps which had nonetheless driven them back almost to the gates of Alexandria, they surrendered to a numerically inferior Japanese army in Singapore and Malaya, and they hadn't demonstrated much of killer instinct during the pursuit of the Afrika Corps or fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, and Italy. The US Army had not committed a significant fraction of its strength to these same operations either, nor had it performed particularly brilliantly in Operation Torch or Tunisia. It fell to the US Navy to save the landings at Sicily and Anzio when German tanks reached the beaches in both operations. (Good as the Tiger and Panther were, getting hit by a 5" Common round from a naval gun was, and still is, a death sentence to a tank.)

Until D-Day the majority of the troops the Western Allies had were not committed to operations and had no real combat experience. So, it may not have been the start of the war in Europe, but it was the real start of the ground war.

It is, I think, fair to say it was the end of the defensive phase of the war though.  What I was trying to do was express the idea of a crude 2 phase war; an initial 'reaction' stage, followed by a war footing.  I think, if you view the Allies as a whole, the British defense and war in Africa is a reasonable example of that 'react, survive, prepare to counterattack' type scenario, and the US entry with fresh troops would analogous to a nation or entity enacting full mobilisation.  My point was that the peacetime military is not required to win a war (because you can't prepare a victory plan in situations without knowing the enemy), but that it serves the purpose of allowing the conditions (planning, materiels, etc) a war-winning strategy to be formed and executed, and once that 2nd phase begins the peacetime military is now the wartime military.

[THE N00B]

Well, it IS a firefight...you cant ignore the experience that it gives you.

I sayed not much experience. Not none.

*szf*
Lets make it simpel. Who do you think will win a fight until death. The Policemen that arrestet some Crime or the Soldier that has fought a war?

[Flipside]

Depends what they are armed with. A policeman actually has a lot more experience at close combat than a soldier does, not the way it's done in the practice yards, but real fighting with biting, gouging and all the other dirty tricks that people use.

Even when it comes to gun combat, US Policemen don't have artillery or airstrikes to call upon, they've had to deal with their foes on a face to face basis more often than most soldiers have.

[Mustang19]

Of course the NTF conflict helped the GTVA! Bosch was a GTVI intelligence officer who instigated a war so that the GTVA could gain combat experience, and then rendezvous with the Shivans so that Bosch could tell them we had enough "combat experience" and the Shivans could leave. OMFG I just onlocked the whole FS3 storlyine! 

[AlphaOne]

What the......!? There is absolutely no truth in the statement that the NTF actualy did some good to the GTVA. Anyone rememeber all those destroyers, corvettes and cruisers that you the player had to take down, or the countless pilots and spacecrafts you take down . Oh and lets not forget the fact that the GTVA sustained heavy damage from the NTF as well. I mean with all the cap ships that blow up during the fight against the NTF you could of had what 3,4,5 aditional fleets to combat the shivans?? You can say whatever you want but the NTF was the decisive factor for the second shivan invasion and the destruction of Capella not to mention most of the GTVA armada that engaged the shivans.

[karajorma]

For once I agree with you AlphaOne. Unless Bosch is proven right the NTF rebellion did much more harm to the GTVA than it helped.

[AlphaOne]

They should be put on trial for the destruction of the Capella star sistem the invasion of the shivans and the loss of so many ships to the shivans on top of the existing charges. Then taken out to an airlock and exposed to vacuum of space.

[karajorma]

I don't think there's many of the left to be honest.

[THE N00B]

Depends what they are armed with. A policeman actually has a lot more experience at close combat than a soldier does, not the way it's done in the practice yards, but real fighting with biting, gouging and all the other dirty tricks that people use.

If you ment the Peace-Time-Soldier i agree. If you ment my Grandpa shortly after the second World War I disagree.

What the......!? There is absolutely no truth in the statement that the NTF actualy did some good to the GTVA. Anyone rememeber all those destroyers, corvettes and cruisers that you the player had to take down, or the countless pilots and spacecrafts you take down . Oh and lets not forget the fact that the GTVA sustained heavy damage from the NTF as well. I mean with all the cap ships that blow up during the fight against the NTF you could of had what 3,4,5 aditional fleets to combat the shivans?? You can say whatever you want but the NTF was the decisive factor for the second shivan invasion and the destruction of Capella not to mention most of the GTVA armada that engaged the shivans.

And what is, if all the ships Alpha One blow up, and many more would be never used by the GTVA? What if they stay in the Yards waiting for a Crew and a new war, when the Shivans arrive? (Peacetime Military) In the Great War the Shivans doesn't need many time to take the most setteled Systems? And there they used not as many ships then in the 2nd Great War.
We know some Jumpnodes to Shivan Space. One was in Gamma Draconis. In the first Great War the Shivans arrived first in Ross-128. Short time later they arrived in Ikeya, Epsilon Pegasi, Betelgeuse and some other Systems that i actuelly not know. To the GTVA-Ship-Yards in Vega, Delta Serpentis, Polares and Antares the Shivans need only one or two jumps, and they can blow up uncrewed ships. Oh good idea.

[Mustang19]

I'm not sure FS even has an "experience" factor. You hear of elite squadrons and pilots that are more skilled than others, but considering the kind of realistic training and genetic enhancement availble in the FS world, every pilot probably has the equivalent of combat experience. You don't hear any references to more experienced or battle-hardened troops in the game. Although "elite" units are talked about, this may just mean better equipment, more illustrious history, or it might simply be a bit of propoganda.

[Snail]

Okay, let's get this straight. If not for the NTF, the Shivans would not have come in the first place. It was the NTF who opened the portal, not the GTVA. If the NTF were gone, then the Shivans would never have fought the GTVA in 2367 (perhaps later). And blowing up your own ships is never a good idea. How many ships were lost/mia in the NTF rebellion? That's 21 cruisers, 11 corvettes and 11 destroyers. How many lives? More than 200,000. And that's only on the NTF side. How many ships lost on the GTVA side? I'm estimating 15 cruisers, 10 corvettes and perhaps 3 destroyers. How many deaths? 150,000 deaths. In total, you've lost 36 cruisers, 21 corvettes and 14 destroyers, and you've lost 350,000 men. Agreed (no)?

This was a rough estimate and is probably wrong so whatever.

[Woolie Wool]

They get experienced by fighting pirates and overzealous regional govts. in police actions.

thats what i say.

A Pirate is not interesstet to destroy anything. A Pirate wants to get Cargo, pherhaps some kindnapping and smuggel. Nothing more. The Pirate doesn't destroy a captured Freighter. He lets the Frighters Crew alive. If the Crews know they would be killed, they wont cooperate. If there is strong Craft that protects the Freighers the Pirate doesn't attack. He is looking for an other unprotectet tradeingroute.

Fighting a Pirate is never the same then fighting a Shivan. NEVER!

You're missing something. In FS2 you fight for the military, not a mercenary or privateer group. A pirate band would never have a chance in hell of capturing a military starship. If the pirates make a stand, it will be to kill you.

Fighting pirate forces is easier than fighting Shivans due to their lack of resources and obsolescent equipment, but to say that t

Also, consider how advanced the simulators in FS are--they're identical to actual combat! The pilots could fight in special combat scenarios designed for teaching specific strategies and tactics that are indistinguishable from reality, or re-enact historical battles. This is a huge advantage over modern pilot training.

[Snail]

And what is, if all the ships Alpha One blow up, and many more would be never used by the GTVA? What if they stay in the Yards waiting for a Crew and a new war, when the Shivans arrive? (Peacetime Military) In the Great War the Shivans doesn't need many time to take the most setteled Systems? And there they used not as many ships then in the 2nd Great War.
We know some Jumpnodes to Shivan Space. One was in Gamma Draconis. In the first Great War the Shivans arrived first in Ross-128. Short time later they arrived in Ikeya, Epsilon Pegasi, Betelgeuse and some other Systems that i actuelly not know. To the GTVA-Ship-Yards in Vega, Delta Serpentis, Polares and Antares the Shivans need only one or two jumps, and they can blow up uncrewed ships. Oh good idea.

The Shivans wouldn't arrive from Gamma Draconis. That was from a Knossos portal activated by the NTF (well the Trinity anyway). The Ross 128, Ikeya and Antares, FS1 incursion points were mostly silenced by the destruction of the Lucy. Unless another Shivan force like the one in Inferno comes in looking for the Lucy, then you don't really need to worry about them. Besides, what makes you think there are drydocks in the fringe systems. If the Shivvies did arrive and come blow everything up, they wouldn't find too much. Gamma Drax had almost nothing in it. Capella had (in FS2) habitable planets, which means there would be a large concentration of dudes there. GTVA ships probably have auto-guns which could be activated by a skeleton crew (remotely?) enough time to have it jump out.

[AlphaOne]

Look It is clear that the GTVA was already preparing for another shivan war. That was the reason they built the freaking Collie. The only diference is the GTVA was preapared to fight the last shivan war and not this one. You can clearely see the diferent strategies in ship development each side took!

The terrans are more towards aaaf defences and fighter/bommber attack then actual ship to ship combat while the vasudans clearely have the more ofensive ships with more firepower mounted on them in terms of beam weaponry.

And let us not forget that the GTVA has advanced training programs to keep they pilots in shape.

The fact the GTVA had a ew veteran pilots when they engaged the shivans is meaningless as most of the veteran ones were already dead after the war with the NTF. So basicly you have mostrly raw recruits .

So the arguement of wartime pilots crews etc is void of any truth. Not to mention al those corvettes and destroyers thet could of been used to halt the shivan advance. Even if they were not used to halt the sshivans which eventualy they coul not do they would of at leats been in the reserve and the GTVA would of emerged from the war far stronger then we know. Hell a dozen destroyers old or new are a serous power.

[Snail]

You forget to realize it was the ****ing NTF who opened the damn portal. But if you negate that part of the argument, then yeah.

[AlphaOne]

i forgot about that part if the freaking NTF wouldnt of opened the gate then we wouldnt have a second shivan war so soon! A second shivan war would of happened anyway but not when the shivans wanted but rather when the GTVA wanted and it would of been far less cheaper in terms of man and ships losses. Plus by that time the GTVA would of probably figured out how to colapse the node etc etc.

GTVA command may be idiots but they are not suicidal.

[Snail]

"fly into the Lucifer's hangar"

GTA Command seems to be willing to kill off their best pilot.

[Dylnuge]

Here is my standpoint on how the Second Shivan Incursion would have went if the NTF had not existed (disregarding, of course, that the NTF started it in the first place):

Facts:
1. The GTVA would not be fighting two wars at the same time.
2. Terran-Vasudan Relations would be improved (destroyed by NTF).
3. The Colossus and many other destroyers, cruisers, and corvettes would have been able to focus their firepower on the Shivans.
4. There would not have been large losses of people and ships, both due to NTF defection and GTVA death toll (and, of course, NTF defection combined with death).
5. The GTVA would have been in a slightly less mobilized situation.
6. SOC would not have been focusing missions on NTF infultration and therefore would have been able to focus more on Shivan infaltration.

Opinion:
Although it is true that the NTF put the GTVA in a war mobility state, they also caused severe damage to the GTVA which made the war worse.
However, thanks to the NTF, the GTVA now has the Knossos device blueprints. In addition, nothing is known about whether or not Bosch succeded in communitacting with Shivans and what happened through that.

Final Conclusion:
FS2 happened the way it did. Shivan return was obvious, but not at the start. In fact, it was pretty much a FS theme: start the game with an ongoing war, then throw the Shivans at us. In FS1 it was the Terran-Vasudan war, in FS2 its the NTF. (Of course, in FS1, the Terran Vasudan War ended, but was replaced with the HOL).

Since we will never really know what [V] planned to do with the storyline, its best to disregard it.