Author Topic: Models Redux  (Read 7689 times)

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Offline Stryke 9

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All right, I gather that the consensus right now is that the new FS, when it comes out, will feature the same POF system as the old one, so that the two are compatible. However, I didn't see one specific question I'd be very interested in asked...

I think I can speak for the majority of the HLP community when I say I'd be perfectly happy to never see TrueSpace again. Yet POF files must be converted from .cobs and the IK heirarchies for turrets have to be done in TS. Is it at all possible to bypass TrueSpace for heirarchies, make POF files so that they do not require heirarchies, or get some secondary game file that does not require conversion from Truespace, but perhaps something less... painful to use?

 

Offline penguin

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Well, we definitely need to keep the current POF format around for compatibility, I think that goes without saying.  But there's no reason why we couldn't simultaneously support more than one model format.

As I am not a very successful modder :blah: I don't have much exposure to the tools the "real" modders use, or would like to use.  Forgive my ignorance, but what are people using besides TS?  Do people use 3DS Max or Maya :drool: ?

Are there any existing 3D formats out there that we could base this on?  We would probably still need to do some sort of post-processing to add all the BOUNDBOX stuff for collision detection.  But in an ideal world, your 3d tool could just spit out the files necessary, and then plug it in and go...

So (this is a rhetorical question), what's wrong with the current POF and OBJ2 formats?  What are its shortcomings, and how can we improve on it?

As far as I can tell, the hierarchy thing is probably necessary for subobjects.

(My pet peeve is the PCX files, only about 50% of the graphics viewers I have can handle them... something more standard, like PNG, would be better IMHO)
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Offline Bobboau

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no, nothing needs to be changed, perhaps a new tool that would alow you to edit a POF's higherarchy could be usefull for you
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Offline LtNarol

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hmmm, an addition to ModelView that lets you load models, glue them, and do hierarchy would be very nice, but as Bobboau said, no need for a new format when the pof format works so well already.

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by LtNarol
hmmm, an addition to ModelView that lets you load models, glue them, and do hierarchy would be very nice, but as Bobboau said, no need for a new format when the pof format works so well already.


that would rule. I remember I asked for that lmast year, people answered me that dreaming didn't hurt :sigh:
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Offline KARMA

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
no, nothing needs to be changed, perhaps a new tool that would alow you to edit a POF's higherarchy could be usefull for you


the same i was proposing some weeks ago in the wishlist, a tool that "unify" two already converted converted models in one single pof, something that would allow you to add a pof (or a model) into another pof as a lod, and that maybe allows you to add subobjects too.
The subobject stuff would be very useful because you would be able to add for example already converted turrets out of a modelling prog but it may be littlle more difficult since you have to set a position and orientation different form the center of the ship.
Btw this would be the first step to make us free from truespace...

 

Offline Kazan

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i could easily hack in support for altering the hierarchy into POF CS - all the code is there for it, i just didn't put in a gui for it
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Offline Killfrenzy

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Yeah, that'd be cool.

Of only the pof editing was WYSIWYG like MV32.......
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Offline Nico

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actually, won't be really useful unless PCS also generates the lights etc.
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Offline Stryke 9

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...Wonder if there's a way to work out a .pof plugin for MAX... I know things like guns wouldn't come through, but that's what ModelView and PCS are for...

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
actually, won't be really useful unless PCS also generates the lights etc.


Why can't PCS generate the lights? They should be fairly straightforward data sets, yes? There's no reason why the program can't do it.
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Offline EdrickV

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:v: did their models in Max. They used a special plug-in to export them into a format that BPSGen could read and use to make the POF file. How they did things like turrets I don't know. If you know anything about making plug-ins you might be able to make one. Editing the hierarchy may be difficult if Max doesn't do hierarchies, since you may not end up with seperate objects to start with. (I'm not sure what programs do or don't and other then TS1 I don't think I have any that could do that in a useful filetype.) Some program that could combine seperate 3D program files (like COB, since most of us should have at least one program that can save it) into a hierarchical file, maybe a cob for easy conversion or a POF with the ability to edit the hierarchy would be nice. It's beyond my ability to do right now though. The POF specs are on the Descent Developer's Network though.

Addendum: While we do want to keep backwards compatability (or sidewards? ;)) there was talk about making an updated POF format with all sorts of new features and fixes. Granted, that was talked about before the source was released (for FSF's custom FS2 compatable engine) but IMHO that new POF format is still a good idea. But it'll take some time to make. The first releases are small fixes, updates to raise some of the limits that have bugged MODders for ages, and of course ports to GCC and eventually Linux. :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2002, 11:27:19 pm by 657 »
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Offline Nico

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from the little i could find, Max hierarchy allows linking only as child, not sibling. but it's weird for some reasons I don't feel like explaining, so I might search more about that in the future.
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
from the little i could find, Max hierarchy allows linking only as child, not sibling. but it's weird for some reasons I don't feel like explaining, so I might search more about that in the future.


"link as sibling' should be the same as 'link as child of this object's parent'. You don't really need both, do you?
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Offline EdrickV

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


"link as sibling' should be the same as 'link as child of this object's parent'. You don't really need both, do you?


If you want to link as siblings two objects that don't have parents, then yes you would. Not quite sure where it would come in though, other then the TS1 method of turret grouping where you glue the turrets together as siblings and then group the combined turret group to the main object. (Grouping each individual turret to the parent created a weird hierarchy with extra "phantom" submodels.) Example:

Main object: hull
Subobjects: turret,1 turret,2
Glue each turret to the hull as a child individually and you get:
hull
     turret01
     phantom object
          turret02

Or something like that, don't have TrueView so the exact hierarchy is an educated guess, but you do get phantom submodels. I've experienced that first hand. No idea what would happen with Max, would probably depend on how the converter worked.

What I would really like, but isn't likely to to be made, is a program you can use to assemble submodels from different files. Example: You load the hull. Then you import objects for turrets, shield mesh if any, thrusters, etc. You would position the submodels on the main model (or a submodel they're to be associated with, for turret arms) and then setup the hierarchy. Trying to do good texturing and submodels with the same ship is not proving to be easy for me with the tools I have. I can make useful UV maps in Wings3D, and texture them with LithUnwrap, but when I try to do submodel stuff (lights and turrets) TS1 seems to screw up the UV map.
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Offline Stryke 9

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Quote
Originally posted by EdrickV
Editing the hierarchy may be difficult if Max doesn't do hierarchies, since you may not end up with seperate objects to start with.  


Actually, MAX has one of the most complete IK and heirarchy systems around. Thich is why I asked, since MAX can do everything TS does, and more.

 

Offline Carl

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Offline EdrickV

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The one thing Max can't do is be distributed freely. But to me, that's a very big thing.
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Offline KARMA

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maybe its only a fake, but others told me about a modelling pack from discreet, software house of MAX, similar to max itself, buildspecifically for game modelling and similar stuff, that is freely distribute and can save directly in some of the most common game models format (quake3..)

 

Offline KARMA

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i looked for it, and it really exists
its a "special" version of MAX for game purposes, there are two version, one is freely distribute, called GMAX, one is for game developers, called GMAX DEV.
the point is what format gmax supports in saving and importing, but i haven't found infos about that
btw a free version of max is something that may be really useful.
another important point is the possibility to use max's plugins with gmax (like meshtools) or to create gmax plugins that may improove format sharing between progs...
here is the link http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/