Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Arts & Talents => Topic started by: ShivanEmperor on June 28, 2008, 08:41:02 am
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A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...
STAR WARS
V.S.
Freespace
The brave and bold Rebel Alliance has won a major victory against the evil Galactic Empire by destroying their ultimate weapon, the Death Star.
The Rebel Alliance now moves to build a new secret base on the ice planet Hoth in order to take advanatge of their recent victory at Yavin.
Meanwhile, the excellent tactician and strategist, Vice Admiral Thrawn, points his battlefleet in the direction of the planet Byss, to investigate unknown activity...
Part One.
The dark shadows of five Imperial-Class Star Destroyers come out of Hyperspace in the Byss syetem. One of them contains the powerfull Vice Admiral Thrawn.
The shadows of the almighty ships casts down onto the debris and wastes floating around the planet.
"Commence a scan of the area." said Thrawn. Thrawn's Lieutenant walked to the back room of the bridge and activated the Long-Range Sensors. "The debris field is interfering with our scans, sir." "Move closer into the debis field and commence a sweep of the planet's orbit." "Yes, sir!"
The Star Destroyers began moving in each direction around the planet. "Sir, the Valorous has detected a high energy signiture!" "What is it?" "It's still a faint blip, sir. Should we move in for a closer look?" "Yes, but let the rest of the fleet continue to scout around." "Yes, sir! Yes, sir!"
Thrawn's Star Destroyer began moving through a thick bunch of debris and space junk. Finally around the wreckage of an old ship, was a massive structure with four components rotating round and round. "Life signs?" said Thrawn. "None, sir!" "Launch our Tie squadrons and get a close-up scan of the structure."
The Star Destroyer began launching Tie Fighters. Within 30 seconds the Tie's had scanned the structure. "The device's energy readings are off the charts. We should call in a research team for Coruscant." "Yes, you do that. Take us in closer. Perhaps we can discover the meaning of this device." "An unknown energy field seems to be generated upon the interlocking movements of the components. I am attempting to find out what kind of field."
"Sir, the energy readings seem to be similar to those of a Hyperspace anomoly! Perhaps this is some kind of Hyperspace device of some sort!" "But where does it lead? Well, we shall found out soon enough. Set a course for the center of the ring and engage our Hyperspace Drive." "Sir?" "We don't need to wait around for a pair of science ships to start taking this device apart. Inform the Valorous to do the same." "Yes, sir!" "Soon we shall found out where this device leads to, and hopefully this little adventure will become more than a simple hunt for pirates."
"We are in position, sir, with the Valorous right behind us!" "Very-well, activate Hyperspace Drive." A massive blue and white vortex apeared infront of the ship, pulling them in. "Sir! The Hyperspace drive is disabled! Something is pulling us into the vortex which apears to show a difference to that of Hyperspace!" "Calm down, Lieutenant. I have no doupt that will shall be in good hands very soon."
__________
Meanwhile...
"Kappa wing, this is allied command, please respond. Iota wing, investigate Kappa's last waypoint. The Ionized field is interfering with our transmission."
Meanwhile, seven cliks away...
Kappa 1 "Command, this Kappa 1, come-in. Repeat, this is Kappa 1, come-in..."
Kappa 2 "So, what now? We go back to the Aquitaine? Oh, wait. Yeah, sensors are malfunctioning. What now?"
Kappa 1 "I suppose we should just continue scouting the Nebulea and hope that we come across another patrol.
Kappa wing of the 170th Ravens had recently lost contact with command after venturing into an area of the Nebulea with a high EMP field. Sensors, targetting systems and more were not functioning properly.
Kappa 3 "Kappa 1, I am just about picking up something on sensors. Something big."
Kappa 1 "I reading it too. Lets get a closer look. Stay close to me."
Kappa 2 and 3 followed Kappa 1 through the rising EMP storms. Finally they could make out a large triangular object in the storm.
Kappa 1 "What is that???"
Kappa 2 "Kappa 1, I am detecting the faint signiture of a Cain class cruiser."
A long red Shivan Beam began firing on the massive triangular object.
__________
"We are under attack, sir! An unknown vessel has fired what apears to be some kind of photon weaponry." said Thrawn's Lieutenant. "Return fire, at once!" "Sir, more unknowns are heading this way. They apear to be fighters." "Deploy our fighter squadrons to intercept them." "Yes, sir!"
__________
Kappa 1 "The unknown vessel is launching fighters. They are heading straight for us!"
The Star Destroyer began firing its turbo lasers at the Shivan Cain cruiser. Within 10 seconds it was all but obliterated.
Kappa 1 "Command, we are under attack! Send rienforcements!"
The Tie Fighters were heading straight at them. They started opening fire. Kappa wing responded by straight away with several well placed Rockeye's. A Tie fighter got onto Kappa 3's tail.
Kappa 3 "I need some help!"
After a few laser shots from the Tie, Kappa 3's engines went offline.
__________
"One of the unknown vessels is disabled, sir!" "Excellent. Deply a boarding craft." "Yes, sir!" "What's our status?" "Shield strength at 98%, sir! No hull damage!" "That ship was no match for us. Move further into the Nebulea and mark this area with a waypoint." "Yes, sir!"
__________
Kappa 3 "Sir, looks like theres another ship entering the area!"
A Mon Calamari cruiser entered the area near Kappa wing.
The ships tractor beam activated and Kappa 1, 2 and 3 were pulled into the hanger bay...
The Calamari cruiser quickly jumped out to an unknown location.
__________
"What are the rebels doing here?" Said Thrawn. "The ship has jumped out, sir! We are continueing our scan of the Nebulea!" "Hmmm, search the Nebulea for more of those black and red ships. When we find one, open a channel, BEFORE it attacks." "Yes, sir!
__________
End of Part One
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Looking forward to more :)
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Star Wars seems overpowered to me.
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Star Wars seems overpowered to me.
Star Wars is overpowered... The hull would have sustained heavy damage from even the Cain beam cannons.
I dislike GTVA/Shivans being weak here...
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:( A beam pierces shields!
Might want to rework the dialogue.
Otherwise, good concept.
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We wants moar!!!
And beams go through shields without finding any resistance... Remeber the Death Star II beaming ships in RotJ? They went booom! without shield effects. :p
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We wants moar!!!
And beams go through shields without finding any resistance... Remeber the Death Star II beaming ships in RotJ? They went booom! without shield effects. :p
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6294/moncalshieldshd1.jpg)
Anyway Star Wars ships are significantly more powerful than Freespace ships - going by the Harbinger yield, a BFRed is approximately 50 gigatons over its entire firing interval, when a medium turbolaser battery from an outdated Acclamator class transport is 200 gigatons in a single volley, and that same ship's shields can dissipate 16 teratons per second.
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But still, the scales are skewed by the creator's choices. GL or whoever thought that gigatons sounded better than megatons, that's all.
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W
But still, the scales are skewed by the creator's choices. GL or whoever thought that gigatons sounded better than megatons, that's all.
That`s what I think, too. Sure, the numbers may be "official," but I find them exaggerated still.
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Star Wars canon is quite flexible, I find. So you can believe what you want. At least that's how I see it. :doubt:
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Still, other than the overpowered weapons on the SW side, I`m liking your ideas so far, such as the fate of the lost Kappa wing.
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I can?
*believes that a Fenris can beat a star destroyer and considers that canon*
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wow, kool!
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I can?
*believes that a Fenris can beat a star destroyer and considers that canon*
I believe you are a dimwit. :P :lol:
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I know that the Tie fighter could not have gotten through Kappa 3s shield that fast. :doubt:
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True. 2 small lasers shouldn't have done that.
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Maybe it was a TIE Defender or summat.
Off topic: I find that the Vong are always good for crossovers.
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The Cain Class Beam Cannons are a lot weaker than those of Corvettes and Destroyers.
The shields of the ISD were bypassed a bit, with the shields not weakening much, the ship was still protected by the very strong hull.
SW weaponry has had a lot more time to evolve than FS weaponry. It is very likely that Tie weapons would be enough to take down the shields and a Hercules MK 2 with a few hits. It is for this reason that the Cain was destroyed so fast. The Cain had no shields and Turbo Lasers are very powerfull, just watch the SW ep 3 opening and you will the Invisible Hand going broadside against a Venator.
The Death Star super weapon was a million time stronger than a Cain class beam cannon, well, maybe not a million, but something like that.
The Terran won't be getting blown to bits all throughout the Nebulea. This Fan Fic is supposed to comply completly with the storyline in the FS2 main campaign. We are just seeing what was happening... elsewhere at the time, and what REALLY happened to Kappa wing.
Part Two coming...
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You know, this is making me want to write my own Shivans vs Empire story. But I only seen the movies, so I don't really know stuff like the omg-the-suncrusher.
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There's not so much to know about the other Imperial superweapons. I mean just by reading Wookiepedia you can find out a lot.
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Lets figure. Why the hell does Star Wars have such amazing armor? Why? They have many planets, FreeSpace has many planets. Both civilizations have about the same society, with 1-2 km being the average size of capital ships. Each civilization has powerful weapons, just in different forms. Star wars shields can easily be pierced by beams, while their turbolasers don't have to pierce the shields of a GTVA or Shivan capital ship (except for the Lucifer) and can damage them directly. Ergo, shields on capital ships are moot.
TIE fighters have fairly weak weaponry (the standard TIE, not the Defender or Interceptor, which are fairly rare) while FS has larger fighters and bombers, with more power. Fighter shields in SW are fairly weak, from what I can tell, while FS shields are incredibly powerful in comparison. An ISD holds 72 fighters, while a Hecate carries 150 IIRC, and an Orion carries 125, with most of the ISD's complement being weak TIEs, and the destroyer's being powerful FS fighters.
Figure an ISD is 1.6 km. That is in between the length of a destroyer and corvette. A destroyer has about 125000 HP, while a corvette has about 85000. That gives an ISD about 95000-100000 HP, and marginally weaker weapons than a destroyer.
And then throw in Saths. A Sath can destroy a destroyer in one volley, which is larger than an ISD. Also, the Imperial Navy only managed to make about 10 SSDs, while the Shivans have many, many Sathanases.
Besides, I think that the whole imbalance is due to ravenous fanboyism.
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They have many planets, FreeSpace has many planets.
Only if you take 'many' to mean two very different things. You may notice that Star Wars includes several orders of magnitude more planets than are seen in the FS universe.
TIE fighters have fairly weak weaponry (the standard TIE, not the Defender or Interceptor, which are fairly rare) while FS has larger fighters and bombers, with more power.
And you pull this from where?
That gives an ISD about 95000-100000 HP, and marginally weaker weapons than a destroyer.
Only if they are built of the same materials and use the same weapons technology.
And then throw in Saths. A Sath can destroy a destroyer in one volley, which is larger than an ISD. Also, the Imperial Navy only managed to make about 10 SSDs, while the Shivans have many, many Sathanases.
They did manage two death stars and various similar superweapons though.
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What exactly is grand admiral thrawn doing in Byss? He spent most of his time in the unknown regions near his homeworld, This must take place around the time of Grand Admiral Zaarin's coup d'état, since that was the only time I can think of when he was close enough to the deep core.
I think the best most likely blace for a Knossos to be in the SWG would be in either the corellian sector or the unknown regions, so if it were the unknown regions Thrawn would be the first imp to go through it. This is obviousely a ALT U story so I take it we wont have to worry about continuity.
I still find it hard to believe even an ISD would take down a Cain in a matter of seconds, and there is no way TIEs could take down a wing of hercs without substaining a single cassualty.
True the big turbolasers are the ISD's best deffense, but not even they can take down a ship that fast.
The really exciteing thing about this fic is it adds a third faction to the whole nebula thing. (Or Fourth if you count the vasudans as a seperate faction.)
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Hello? I'd like to see FS win, but SW blast away everything hands down!
A single strike from a 200 Gigaton (outdated!) turret of an Acclamator would do phenomenal 128000 damage, judging by the Harbinger's 5 gigatons. Now imagine what a single Acclamator-1 Troop Transport can do with it's twelve ****ing QUAD turbolasers, and I don't even want to know what effect it's point-defense lasers have on FS fighters.
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Hello? I'd like to see FS win, but SW blast away everything hands down!
A single strike from a 200 Gigaton (outdated!) turret of an Acclamator would do phenomenal 128000 damage, judging by the Harbinger's 5 gigatons. Now imagine what a single Acclamator-1 Troop Transport can do with it's twelve ****ing QUAD turbolasers, and I don't even want to know what effect it's point-defense lasers have on FS fighters.
Now children, this is an example of the disease known of SW-fanboy-over-exagerating. It's when people tend to multiply everything by 10 times and add supernova making-surviving ships.
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It's got nothing to do with the fanboys. It's the Expanded Universe alone.
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Actually, it's like this:
Whining-fanboys-who-overexagerate + George Lucas accepting EVERYTHING as canon = OMG THOUSANDS OF TERRATONS FIREPOWER LAZORS ON SUPERNOVA SURVIVING SHIPS
I bet that if enough people from HLP started to whine for a SSJ Gigas to become canon in SW, George L. would accept. :p
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Actually, it's like this:
Whining-fanboys-who-overexagerate + George Lucas accepting EVERYTHING as canon = OMG THOUSANDS OF TERRATONS FIREPOWER LAZORS ON SUPERNOVA SURVIVING SHIPS
I bet that if enough people from HLP started to whine for a SSJ Gigas to become canon in SW, George L. would accept. :p
See, I think the SW stats are vastly overpowered, and I am basing all these information on canon literature, but FS _simply_can't_win_. Not with all help from the heavens.
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Think what you want, but I am writing a story where Shivans are PULVERISING the Imperials. I doubt my writing's good though. And I have no characters. . .
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See, I think the SW stats are vastly overpowered, and I am basing all these information on canon literature, but FS _simply_can't_win_. Not with all help from the heavens.
See, that's where you're wrong. We've agreed that FS takes place in "our" galaxy and SW in a galaxy far, far away, right? So, concidering the GTVA also has all these high-tech gizmos, what stops them from cloning Chuck Norris (assuming that he has died for some reason) and unleashing him on the Star Wars bastards? Epic win. Unless Chuck Norris also takes care of the Terrans, Vasudans and Shivans.
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Quoting canon material is not "overexaggerating". It's canon that a Star Destroyer can melt the crust of an entire planet in an hour, that takes teratons/petatons of firepower. It's canon that an Executor class SSD's reactor produces more power than a small star. It's canon that the Death Star blew apart Alderaan so violently that if you scaled its beam down to the size of turbolasers on a Star Destroyer, it would be way stronger than most of the canon firepower figures. It's canon that the Empire controls the entire galaxy, while the GTVA has a few dozen systems. It's canon that the Sun Crusher can destroy a star in a few hours with one torpedo, compared to months and with a fleet of Sathanai. It's canon that the amount of material used to build the second Death Star would be equivalent to building billions of Star Destroyers.
Also, just because beams can penetrate Freespace shields, what makes you think they could do the same to Star Wars shields, which are based on completely different technology (and much stronger, too)?
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compared to months and with a fleet of Sathanai.
That took days. If you don't count the time it took for them to get to the sun in the first place.
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DarthWang, did you name yourself after the DarthWang who runs stardestroyer.net?
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This is all my point. The FS universe in set a few hundred years from now in a VERY small part of the galaxy. Got any idea how many stars are in the entire galaxy? Well the SW universe is set a long time ago in a galaxy far far away and they actually have access to that 1.Idon'tknowhowmanybillionsofstarsareinthegalaxy amount of stars. More territoy in space means more planets, more planets means different materials, different materials means different tech, different tech means a likely difference in strength compared to FS ships.
Which means that SW metel could be far stronger which means far stronger hull. This is why Beam cannons could not penetrate the ISD's shields.
If you want FS to win this fic, well... I wont release spoilers, but all I can tell you is that this is set in the exact same timeline as that of the main Freespace 2 Campaign. So none of the events in my fic will really be jumping into the main FS campaign. :yes:
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more planets means different materials
Well, not really.
There are only around 100 stable elements - and the list is complete, without some holes.
There are more, artificially produced elements (according to wiki its 118 atm, yes, we are "creating" elements even right now!)
In fact, any element that can be found on a planet, can be produced in an accelerator. Maybe its a little more expensive, maybe you dont have techniques to use those materials. But all of them are available to the FS-Universe for certain.
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Exactly. Atoms are the same in all parts of the universe. Sure, there are tons of possibilities for compounds, but you`re not going to find a planet that has a completely different periodic table.
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See, I think the SW stats are vastly overpowered, and I am basing all these information on canon literature, but FS _simply_can't_win_. Not with all help from the heavens.
See, that's where you're wrong. We've agreed that FS takes place in "our" galaxy and SW in a galaxy far, far away, right? So, concidering the GTVA also has all these high-tech gizmos, what stops them from cloning Chuck Norris (assuming that he has died for some reason) and unleashing him on the Star Wars bastards? Epic win. Unless Chuck Norris also takes care of the Terrans, Vasudans and Shivans.
And if they decide to pair him with Samuel L. Jackson and the A Team...
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Hello? I'd like to see FS win, but SW blast away everything hands down!
A single strike from a 200 Gigaton (outdated!) turret of an Acclamator would do phenomenal 128000 damage, judging by the Harbinger's 5 gigatons. Now imagine what a single Acclamator-1 Troop Transport can do with it's twelve ****ing QUAD turbolasers, and I don't even want to know what effect it's point-defense lasers have on FS fighters.
Let's see:
5 Gt= 3 200 HP
that's 640 HP/Gt TNT.
Therefore the BFRed does 18 Gt TNT per second, times 4 beams makes 72, multiplied by the 7 second firing time makes 504 Gt TNT per Sath salvo. And since beams don't even feel any resistance from shields, a well placed salvo would carve a nice hole in the SD's or even SSD's bridge. Much larger than the one an A-Wing made in RotJ.
BTW- if Star Wars ships are capable of taking such amounts of energy without exploding, why is it that Terran Maras become hood ornaments on a Sath, while a Kamikaze A-Wing kills an SSD in 1 hit?
A beam cannon with energy measured in kilotons (Shivan AAA uber weak) would do just fine in blowing up the bridge and therefore making SD's useless if we're playing it by the numbers, and not by the logic.
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And since beams don't even feel any resistance from shields
Evidence please. (And no, fighter shields do not qualify.)
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fighter shields do not qualify.)
Why not?
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Fine, justify that they should. You're trying to suggest that they should, hence the onus is on you.
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No, you tell me why they shouldn't.
Ah just forget it. . . FS is like a baby compared to the grand'pa SW. SW has more random stuff added by their fans, and accepted by GL. There's no way FS can win cause the massive SW fanbase says otherwise.
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Like, omg. FS will just send Alpha 1 to destroy the entire SW universe. With an Ursa.
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No, you tell me why they shouldn't.
No, you tell me why the Vasudans weren't descended from the platypus who acquired space age technology in 9000BC from the Chinese emperor but were wiped out by the Ancients (who could be dolphins with engines strapped to them by Steve Irwin).
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Maybe I didn't bother with the entire Star Wars universe, but I always thought that FS had the "superior stuff" to me.
Then again how many missiles can any standard SW fighter hold? Any random so-and-so-Wing or a standard TIE? :doubt: Since tanks like the Ares have 100 secondary weapon cargo points which is like, plenty enough to shoot down 50-60 fighters if every missile did a successful one-hit-kill?
Influence sure... influences... a lot...
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The movies were okay, I have to say, but then retouches and re-releases and comics and new books and the Expanded Universe came along and turned Star Wars into a cluster**** of ****iness.
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I pretty much guessed that with all the countless media being released in the market.
Come to think of it, to date, I've never ever watched a single Star Wars film from start to finish. Maybe that's why I don't understand what the fuss is all about (in terms of fanboyism anyway).
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Hello? I'd like to see FS win, but SW blast away everything hands down!
A single strike from a 200 Gigaton (outdated!) turret of an Acclamator would do phenomenal 128000 damage, judging by the Harbinger's 5 gigatons. Now imagine what a single Acclamator-1 Troop Transport can do with it's twelve ****ing QUAD turbolasers, and I don't even want to know what effect it's point-defense lasers have on FS fighters.
Let's see:
5 Gt= 3 200 HP
that's 640 HP/Gt TNT.
Therefore the BFRed does 18 Gt TNT per second, times 4 beams makes 72, multiplied by the 7 second firing time makes 504 Gt TNT per Sath salvo. And since beams don't even feel any resistance from shields, a well placed salvo would carve a nice hole in the SD's or even SSD's bridge. Much larger than the one an A-Wing made in RotJ.
BTW- if Star Wars ships are capable of taking such amounts of energy without exploding, why is it that Terran Maras become hood ornaments on a Sath, while a Kamikaze A-Wing kills an SSD in 1 hit?
A beam cannon with energy measured in kilotons (Shivan AAA uber weak) would do just fine in blowing up the bridge and therefore making SD's useless if we're playing it by the numbers, and not by the logic.
We have no evidence that SW shield aren't stopping beams, aside from the fact that a single shot from a modern Star Destroyer bears 500 Gigatons of firepower IIRC, and now just imagine a whole broadside of these things battering you.
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I think the FS2 universe focuses more on the fighters, which are more powerful than Star Wars fighters and bombers. While using the GT/hp conversion may make the Imperials much more powerful capital ship wise, I doubt that the firepower from 4 TiE bombers can match that of 4 Boanerages(sp?), or even 4 Ursas.
Its difficult to make an exact comparison because SW does not elaborate much on the strength of their secondaries, or even the mechanisms behind the photon torpedo. However, if books are to be considered part of the canon SW universe, then photon torpedoes blast "is focused into a tight cone to maximize effectiveness and minimize collateral damage and energy leakage away from the target" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Proton_torpedo#Behind_the_scenes), but the effects on a starfighter seem to resemble that of a regular explosive. Then its conceivable that the photon torpedoes carried by the TiE bombers are anti-capital, and focus their blasts into a small area, drilling into the hull.
Cyclopses, being standard anti-capital warheads, ostensibly are just slow moving missiles, spreading their damage over a wider area. While they deal less precise damage, they have a larger chance of wiping out nearby turrets, or disrupting systems with their shockwaves.
Which means, FS bombers are more likely to destroy banks of turrets with their shockwaves, but might need more firepower to crack the hull of a ISD, while conversely, a TiE bomber will cut through the hull faster, but will need precise aiming to take out turrets, which puts them at a much greater risk from FS point defense turrets, which are respectable in their own right.
Then again how many missiles can any standard SW fighter hold? Any random so-and-so-Wing or a standard TIE? :doubt: Since tanks like the Ares have 100 secondary weapon cargo points which is like, plenty enough to shoot down 50-60 fighters if every missile did a successful one-hit-kill?
Actually iirc, the TiE fighters and interceptors have none, while the Defender only has space for 4 concussion missiles.
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The movies were okay, I have to say, but then retouches and re-releases and comics and new books and the Expanded Universe came along and turned Star Wars into a cluster**** of ****iness.
I actually LIKED Star Wars BEFORE I heard of the omg-multiple-terraton-laz0rs, supernova making/surviving ships and the like...
Ancients (who could be dolphins with engines strapped to them by Steve Irwin).
HOW DID YOU KNOW? Damn, my secret plan on 'How Ancients look like' is ruined...
EDIT: GTVA and Shivan corvettes survived initial supernova shockwave. BEAT THAT.
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Oh come on, there is another thread here for discussion about specs. Let's keep this storyline-only please. Isn't there a moderator on this board?
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EDIT: GTVA and Shivan corvettes survived initial supernova shockwave. BEAT THAT.
I believe that the first explosion was simply the dissipated heat. The second one was the actual shockwave.
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the fact that a single shot from a modern Star Destroyer bears 500 Gigatons of firepower IIRC, and now just imagine a whole broadside of these things battering you.
And it's even more fun when you start to compare these numbers to, say, the nuclear weapons used during the World War II. Ridiculous.
Isn't there a moderator on this board?
Actually, no.
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Prove to me this: If SW happened so long ago, why is Thrawn in command after so many thousand years, and why is the ISD design still being used?
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Prove to me this: If SW happened so long ago, why is Thrawn in command after so many thousand years, and why is the ISD design still being used?
Still?
The ISD is of rather recent design, it's not already used for millenia or so. Actually, you can almost count it as outdated. AFAIK they're being replaced by Imperial-II SDs, if we are going to use the Movie's ships. Which is bad. Because an Imperial-II has eight frickin' octuple turbolaser batteries on each side, one 500 gigaton shot means calculated 320000 k damage, multiplicated with eight you have the damage of one turret fired all-out: 2 560 000!
Again multiplicated with four, you get a full broadside: A colossal 10 240 000. Enough damage to kill ten Collosi/Sathanai with one broadside. A single turret will do though.
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Prove to me this: If SW happened so long ago, why is Thrawn in command after so many thousand years, and why is the ISD design still being used?
Because someone divided by zero...?
Also- Turbolasers are useless against strike craft, as shown by SW Ep. III and the 1-st Death Star.
And:
Shields are incapable of repelling energy from beam cannons, and are easily pierced by these weapons.
Where did that info come from, I have no idea, but it's in the Wiki under Shields
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If beams can pierce fighter shields, why not SW shields. This is all just a case of Fanboy Vs. Fanboy.
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If beams can pierce fighter shields, why not SW shields. This is all just a case of Fanboy Vs. Fanboy.
In which case the argument will never be resolved. And besides, this thread is supposed to be for the fanfiction, not for our discussion on FS and SW specs.
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Prove to me this: If SW happened so long ago, why is Thrawn in command after so many thousand years, and why is the ISD design still being used?
They went through a temporal Knossos. ;)
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No, the person who runs SD.net calls himself Darth Wong. A coincidence, I assure you. Also he hates me.
An A-wing did not take out the Executor, if you pay attention to the movie and novelization of the movie you will see that Admiral Ackbar ordered the entire Alliance fleet to concentrate their firepower on the Executor, which lowered its shields, thus allowing the A-wing to hit the command bridge, which set off secondary explosions, and the gravity of the Death Star pulled it in and destroyed it.
If they hadn't been so close to the Death Star the ship would only have been temporarily inconvenienced, and it only happened in the first place because the shields were blasted down by the Alliance fleet.
As for the beams, penetration of one type of shield hardly implies penetration of any type of shield, no matter how powerful or alien it is compared to the shields they are shown to work against.
You might as well say that since an H-bomb can destroy any modern tank or naval vessel, it could destroy any alien technology as well.
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I still think Star Wars is ridiculously overpowered. For the sake of this fan fiction, at least make them less outrageously powerful.
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Apparently I'm the first one with a SW badge to feel like commenting on this :)
I haven't read the fic yet, I plan to though. However, comments like beams pierce shields just sound incredibly stupid to apply to SW. Sure, a beam generated by a massive capital ship powerplant in any universe is probably capable of ripping through a measly fighter's shielding. However, FS capships don't even have shields, and their armor alone can take quite a few beam shots. I think it's safe to say that any capship with an energy shield, would be significantly stronger than that which could be equipped on snub fighters. Using the Death Star as a reference for a beam piercing a shield is equally ludicrous, to assume that FS ship beams are anything close to a beam which can detonate a planet means that any FS cruiser should have the destructive power of 10 Lucifers. So, for the majority of capship beams, I have to imagine that a large Star Wars ship could absorb quite a bit in the shields, from the entirety of a smaller beam to a good chunk of the biggest beams. I do understand they wouldn't be invulnerable, and that a good pounding should inflict severe hull damage to even an ISD or MC80. The only other thing then, is how quickly could 100 dual/quad turbolasers melt through a FS destroyer's hull? Without shields, a constant barrage of turbolasers would make fairly quick work of even an Orion or a Hecate, disregarding the pounding the SW ship would be getting from the beams in the process. All in all, I think it should be a fairly close fight, and that a captain's tactics would be the deciding factor in a fight. I don't think either one has an insurmountable technological edge over the other. It's probably much closer than Ori vs Jaffa :)
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Tactics are everything in combat ... perhaps even more so in space. I'd give the edge to the Orion crew that pulls off the Keyes Loop against an ISD.
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I should have kept fredding an INFR2 mission instead of coming back to read this...
Um, when will part 2 of the story be posted ? As much as I hate FS being weaker here, I still want to read it through.
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Star Wars was designed to represent a galaxy of pissed off people going around killing each other for some absurdly long period of time. This pretty much forces it to be the victor in any versus (which abbreviates to vs. incidentally) style thing.
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Actually, it can't beat my sci-fi universe, so I don't care :lol:
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Actually, it can't beat my sci-fi universe, so I don't care :lol:
Huh?
BTW - Daleks ruuuuuuuule
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Star Wars _is_ a galaxy that has been at war for ages, however they are technologically stagnant. Dreadnaughts are still effective warships after a millenia goes by. How else can you explain that? For some reason the universe never really advances their technology all that dramatically, due to a stupid lack of imagination on the part of the Expanded Universe authors. Really dreadnaughts shouldn't have been used for nearly as long, and noticeable technological advances should have been possible. Other explanations are that there have been recessions in technology that prevented them from ever advancing past a certain point, but I'm not sure how well those could just be stuck in the timeline.
My point is just that the technology in the Star Wars universe advances at a ridiculously slow pace over all time.
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Tactics are everything in combat ... perhaps even more so in space. I'd give the edge to the Orion crew that pulls off the Keyes Loop against an ISD.
The reason the Keyes Loop works is because Covenant plasma torpedoes are self-guiding.
You can't pull off a Keyes Loop against a ship armed primarily with direct-fire turbolasers.
You might try it on a Victory-type, with all the concussion missiles, but they probably have safeguards or remote-destruct capability.
Also, an Orion is way too slow to pull off a Keyes Loop even against a Covenant ship.
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I should have kept fredding an INFR2 mission instead of coming back to read this...
Um, when will part 2 of the story be posted ? As much as I hate FS being weaker here, I still want to read it through.
So do I. I can understand that FS is weaker... Alpha 1 hasn`t even entered the fight yet. >_>
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I think as said earlier, SW tie fighters/bombers would be a significant dis-advantage when attacking FS2 ships, if we let all things be equal, flak can shread you fast if your shields are down, and tie fights flying in formation like they do in the movies, would be mowed down by flak far before they could get close to release their bombs. While FS2 fighters/bombers would have a pretty good advantage against Imperial SD's if you count their strength about the same as an X-wing except with much more proton torpedoes.
I think a Rebel vs FS2 fight would be much more fair in comparison.
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Tactics are everything in combat ... perhaps even more so in space. I'd give the edge to the Orion crew that pulls off the Keyes Loop against an ISD.
The reason the Keyes Loop works is because Covenant plasma torpedoes are self-guiding.
You can't pull off a Keyes Loop against a ship armed primarily with direct-fire turbolasers.
You might try it on a Victory-type, with all the concussion missiles, but they probably have safeguards or remote-destruct capability.
Also, an Orion is way too slow to pull off a Keyes Loop even against a Covenant ship.
Yea, I know that. I meant it as a joke. Everyone knows that FS2 destroyers are too slow too pull off a Keyes Loop.
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Oh, okay. Cool.
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Actually, this is silly. FS isn't weaker. It's more limited, I'll give it that, but FS ships have absurd damage output and resistance to damage at the cost of having rather less engagement range (which may or may not be nullified by subspace jumps).
From Empire Strikes Back we know that the output of an Imperial Star Destroyer firing a decent number of its weapons is somewhere in the multi-kiloton range. ('cuz they were shooting asteroids.) That means a single-fire volley of Hornets (12kt a missile at four missiles a single-fire launch) can probably beat an ISD firing maybe a quarter of its guns.
A Harbinger at 5000Mt frankly ought to vaporize an ISD outright by those standards. Getting hit by a beam cannon, even an SRed, should be a cause for serious friggin' concern to an ImpStar, and perhaps blow lesser ships like a Corellian Corvette or Carrack in half.
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Still?
The ISD is of rather recent design, it's not already used for millenia or so. Actually, you can almost count it as outdated. AFAIK they're being replaced by Imperial-II SDs, if we are going to use the Movie's ships. Which is bad. Because an Imperial-II has eight frickin' octuple turbolaser batteries on each side, one 500 gigaton shot means calculated 320000 k damage, multiplicated with eight you have the damage of one turret fired all-out: 2 560 000!
Again multiplicated with four, you get a full broadside: A colossal 10 240 000. Enough damage to kill ten Collosi/Sathanai with one broadside. A single turret will do though.
Where do you get that 500 gigaton value from?
According to http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html an ISD has 1.9 Gigatons per second - all weapons included. Ok you, you are talking about an ISD II, but strengthening by a factor of over 5 Million? Not really.
I also want to add, that we all know that SciFi writers have no sense of scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale), so basically any numbers given are in most cases just plain stupid :> (for fs as well as SW)
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According to http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html an ISD has 1.9 Gigatons per second - all weapons included. Ok you, you are talking about an ISD II, but strengthening by a factor of over 5 Million? Not really.
It's worth noting that that very site is actually misinterpreting the place were I got the kiloton figure from, but still lists it as support. It's also using figures it's really just making up, or at the very least assuming the targets to be solid nickle-iron, which is damn stupid since they could be carbonaceaous types.
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Maybe you should detail how you got that figure rather than just saying "my number is right!"
I like your "we know". It's a nice way of implying that we should all obviously agree with you with the minimum of evidence.
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Hmm, looks like SD.net actually cleaned up their article to eliminate the inconvenient physics questions actually. Pity.
However yes we do know, because this is not the first time the firepower of an ISD has been discussed on this board, and the proponents of the ridiculous gigatons a second firepower have been beaten down with hard fact before.
Reference...well let's see.
The whole damn thread referenced below.
This post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30607.msg629131.html#msg629131
This post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30607.msg628481.html#msg628481
This post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30607.msg629489.html#msg629489
The whole damn thread referenced below again.
This post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.msg259738.html#msg259738
This post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.msg260183.html#msg260183
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If you're just going to throw links at it, I choose SD.net. Stalemate :p
But, if you're going to bring evidence into play, I have no real reason to argue with you. Maybe I should switch over to making random assertions instead.
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Actually in this thread, and the other thread, no one will really win.
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Well, if you take SW:RS2 on gamecube into consideration, there is no way a ISD has that much firepower. On that mission where you have to take the ISD down the turbolasers are actually quite weak. If all things are equal, and for the sake of the argument we say that a B-wing is as powerful as a Herc-2, the ISD has really weak firepower. Not only does it take alot of shots to bring down your shields but then the blow you up too. So either B-Wings can stand that much firepower, or turbolasers are pretty weak.
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Don't take crappy arcade games into consideration when determining how strong a SW ship is. They specifically make it easy for you to be able to take one down. A single fighter should rarely pose a threat. Turbolasers are not weak, the fighters' resistance is just magnified. I mean, in FS a fighter can take a full on beam hit and lose a minimal amount of damage, at least on lower difficulties. By that argument FS beams are weak as well. I would only judge capship strengths based on their effect against other capital ships, since any effect against fighters is inevitably adjusted for gameplay reasons. In that regard, an ISD and a Mon Cal cruiser are equally capable of dishing out vast quantities of turbolaser death. I mean come on, there has to be a reason that an ISD is essentially the flagship of any local fleet in the SW universe, because it's a bad ass death spewing machine. 100 turbolasers _will_ mess you up, just as a beam will. On top of that, the ISDs are equipped with great quantities of electronics warfare weapons in the form of ion cannons. Those would likely wreak havoc on an unshielded FS capital ship's ability to fight effectively.
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First, let us assume that Durasteel is about twice as strong as depleted uranium.
Thus, Turbolasers probably don't do that much damage. It's notable that ships in Starwars can survive hits from turbolasers unsheilded. If you go by the 'official' *COUGHfanboyCOUGH* calculations, the yield comes out significantly larger than an A-bomb.
A direct hit from an A-bomb, all things considered, should utterly vaporize ANYTHING made of depleted uranium. Even if Durasteel was three times as strong as depleted uranium, it would still vaporize when hit by a nuke. Thus, a ship without shields in Star Wars would be vaporized by one or two hits.
Another inconsistancy: How come the Hoth base (Echo base) wasn't vaporized by the orbital bombardment when its shields went down?
EDIT: And after the empire knew that their targets had escaped. Speaking of which, if the Empire was smart they would have annihilated Echo base as soon as they could.
Now, a few other things to keep in mind:
-Star wars ships, especially Imperial ones, have VERY vulnerable shield generators. The ISD's shield generators are (stupidly) unsheilded themselves. Whoever designed this ought to be spaced.
-Starwars 'lasers' fire bolts of "coherent light". Fairly absurd, eh?
-Wookipedia lists no exact power level for turbolasers, because there are MANY estimates as to how powerful they are. (see for yourself: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser))
-George Lucas seems to consider anything cannon, no pun intended.
(And if you think Star Wars has things far too large to be built, I'm writing a book with a ship called the Darkspire that has its own class: a solar Dreadnought. The ship is about one Astronomical Unit long; that is, 150 million KM. Beat that!)
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Dude, you're getting way too technical about it. I'm just saying, look at what you see in the movies, and think about what makes sense. Obviously turbolasers have to be able to do some damage, or nothing would be scared of them. They'd be a useless weapon, and ships would be equipped with warhead launchers instead.
And what are you talking about, A-Bombs? I'm not going by any calculations, it's just obvious that the weapons have significant impact.
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First, let us assume that Durasteel is about twice as strong as depleted uranium.
Baseless assumption.
Thus, Turbolasers probably don't do that much damage. It's notable that ships in Starwars can survive hits from turbolasers unsheilded. If you go by the 'official' *COUGHfanboyCOUGH* calculations, the yield comes out significantly larger than an A-bomb.
A direct hit from an A-bomb, all things considered, should utterly vaporize ANYTHING made of depleted uranium. Even if Durasteel was three times as strong as depleted uranium, it would still vaporize when hit by a nuke. Thus, a ship without shields in Star Wars would be vaporized by one or two hits.
Surely the same would apply to any ships taking part in combat, including FS ships. So, pointless assertion dependent on baseless assumption, and we can't forget the ad hominem at anyone who might disagree with you.
Another inconsistancy: How come the Hoth base (Echo base) wasn't vaporized by the orbital bombardment when its shields went down?
EDIT: And after the empire knew that their targets had escaped. Speaking of which, if the Empire was smart they would have annihilated Echo base as soon as they could.
You may wish to refer to the film, where the goal of the attack is actually capture and after their targets escaped, Vader and quite a lot of troops were still in the base. Let's call this one irrelevant strategy.
-Starwars 'lasers' fire bolts of "coherent light". Fairly absurd, eh?
No more than the 'xasers' and beams of FS.
(And if you think Star Wars has things far too large to be built, I'm writing a book with a ship called the Darkspire that has its own class: a solar Dreadnought. The ship is about one Astronomical Unit long; that is, 150 million KM. Beat that!)
Star Trek's Dyson sphere does.
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Someone should move all these spam posts to the SWvsFS Requirements thread and leave this one for the story, which is what it was intended for.
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Alright, you heard him, move this discussion over to the SWvsFS Requirements thread and leave this one for the fanfic.
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-Starwars 'lasers' fire bolts of "coherent light". Fairly absurd, eh?
[later]
(And if you think Star Wars has things far too large to be built, I'm writing a book with a ship called the Darkspire that has its own class: a solar Dreadnought. The ship is about one Astronomical Unit long; that is, 150 million KM. Beat that!)
First off, are you aware that all lasers are beams of coherent light? In real life? Everywhere? That's the definition of a laser. It's not absurd at all.
Second, please get back to me when your solar dreadnoughts are half as awesome as a Culture GSV.
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Well, if turbolasers really would be photon weapons (which they are NOT, they are plasma weapons despite the name), they would ignore shields like photon beam weapons do. Which means FS fighters get utterly annihilated.
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The script for FS v.s. SW is pretty much completed. You should expect to see it pop up some time tomorrow. I can't write it now because I am still recovering from my flu.