Author Topic: Official Robotech Mod Thread  (Read 139746 times)

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Offline Nico

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
"gives up"
believe what you want, after all, I couldn't care any less.
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Official Robotech Mod Thread
I've never argued that the SDF-1 was some super ship, just that its better than what Palladium gives in the RPG, of a ship substandard to even the most common Zentraedi Destroyer. A statement which none of your points has disproven.

  Considering that you're 'giving up' after I countered all of your argument, I'll chalk that up as a victory.

 
Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Well of course the SDF survived because Breetai was trying to capture it, not destroy it. But to say that the SDF is weaker than every Zentraedi ship save the Scout is inaccurate I think. Breetai could have destroyed it on a whim because he had hundreds of ships, not neccesarily because the SDF was a piece of crap.  


I don't say the Macross is weaker than the zentraedi ships, indeed it's main gun is more powerful than any zentradi ships, and more powerful than the main cannons on zentraedi gunships too, but still it's not a super ship, in a serious fight it can hold 3-4 enemy warship maybe, but after that it will be destroyed... and Dolza had 4 million ships if i remember right

Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
The Reflux Cannon for instance is only found on Breetai's ship, and maybe the Command Ship used by the other guy. The Zentraedi just bombard the earth with thier laser turrets. Though in Macross: Do you Remember Love, almost all of the Zentran ships open up and fire one main beam weapon at Earth.


Mmm a bit of coufusion here....
First, in the TV version (and Robotech) Breetai flaghsip didn't had any main guns, only in Dyrl you see that.
Second, the bombardment on earth was done by zentraedi Monitor ships (you see them opening the booms to fire), using main guns equal to those of the macross (and the laser turrets of standard warships can't level a city in one shot, i'm sure), if you re-watch the episode you'll see i'm right.
Third, in Dyrl you don't see the destruction of Earth, they only bombard the protoculture city trying to strike the Macross.

Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
  Anyway that's my interpretation. I think that Zor's personally-built warship or whatever would be at least better than a common Zentraedi Destroyer.


Well, this is Robotech, so i don't count any info in that sense... the truth is that the Macross is a common Supervision Army crashed on earth on purpose and "booby trapped", not some kind of special ship.

 

Offline Nico

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
 Considering that you're 'giving up' after I countered all of your
argument, I'll chalk that up as a victory.

I could go on, but I'm fed up, so: if you want, if that makes you happy.
SCREW CANON!

 
Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Makes you wonder how humanity survived?
The Zentradi had like 1000 ships...while half of them was chasing the SDF-1, the other half could have conquesr/leveled the Earth 20 times over...
That's the stupidest thing in the whole show! The humnity is just too much overpowered...

P.S. - What's with the 4 guns the SDF-1 has on it's "shoulders"?


Overpowered? How? I've never seen humanity overpewer the zentradi, not a single time...
Sure the Grand cannon destroyed a few thousand enemy ships... so what? It was destroyed shortly after, and few thousand ships is nothing compared to Dolza fleet.
Humanity "won" (if you call victory the destruction of your homeword) only because a considerable zentradi fleet defected against Dolza, and because of a lucky surprise attack on enemy fortress, with the aid of Minmay songs (yes, jpop music IS that terrible!!!)

As for the "barrier overload" theory, well, i see no proof that the Dolza fortress was destroyed by that istead of the missiles; those were reaction missiles, a sort of super powerful nuclear missiles, and a couple of them can easily destroy a 2km zentradi fortress (Rick did just that in the same episode). I guess that the thousands of them, fired at point black directly in the control room, and in the face of Dolza, were more than sufficent to blow even the 1400km fortress, or at least kill Dolza. Sure maybe the barrrier overload did some more damage to, but still Dolza was killed by missiles before that.

The 4 guns on the shoulders where indeed rail guns, but i've never seen that been fired in the whole serie, i guess the are non-operative, like the most of the Macross systems (it is a crashed ship after all), alon with the varius huge barreled turrets. All the firepower did indeed come from destroids on the decks.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
I said the humans were OVERPOWERED, not OVERPOWERING.
*meaining: the Zentradi could have blasted them at will*

I read somewhere that those 4 railguns are operational and that they are extreemly destructive(but only have 5000 rounds each).. it's a railgun!! The kinetic energy of that cannon must be enormeous.
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Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
I don't say the Macross is weaker than the zentraedi ships, indeed it's main gun is more powerful than any zentradi ships, and more powerful than the main cannons on zentraedi gunships too, but still it's not a super ship,
in a serious fight it can hold 3-4 enemy warship maybe, but after that it will be destroyed... and Dolza had 4 million ships if i remember right


   Fighting off 3-4 enemy warships sounds about right, which I was more/less arguing all the time. Though maybe a few more if its got reflex warheads. My main argument was that the Palladium stats were inaccurate because they portray the SDF-1 as too weak, along with the Zentraedi battlepods (likely to boost the Player Character's ability to play the RPG).
   Though the SDF-1 does have some quirks, like the barrier system, the main gun, converting ability and so forth. I rewatched Force of Arms, where the SDF-1 attacks Dolza's fortress and Nico was right, the fortress is just destroyed by missiles. I thought I remembered Dolza's fortress being destroyed in a spherical explosion, akin to the Marduk destroying 'contaminated' warships in Macross II. On the other hand, what this says is that the Barrier system, developed by humans, is incredibly powerful as it can take the sustained fire from several warships as well as the complete destruction of a 900km long ship. In that episode we also see Rick Hunter destroy a Zentraedi cruiser or destroyer with 6 reflex missiles, which also points toward some technological advancement on the part of humanity.

    In Force of Arms it also shows the SDF-1 firing all her guns, including the rail guns. She has quite a few guns which are never shown firing in the show from what are clearly turrets, as opposed to Destroids.

    Nico was also correct in the previous comment that Khyron's well placed main last blast crippled the SDF-1's radar system. But at the same time, when Breetai invades the SDF-1 by using the Daedalus attack against them, the SDF-1 gets hit by dozens of laser blasts. Though clearly they weren't trying to destroy the SDF-1, it shows that it can take some damage. The SDF-1 also takes a lot of hits in Force of Arms, having parts of Macross City destroyed in the process, but it can take a bit of damage.

Quote
First, in the TV version (and Robotech) Breetai flaghsip didn't had any main guns, only in Dyrl you see that. Second, the bombardment on earth was done by zentraedi Monitor ships (you see them opening the booms to fire), using main guns equal to those of the macross (and the laser turrets of standard warships can't level a city
in one shot, i'm sure), if you re-watch the episode you'll see i'm right. Third, in Dyrl you don't see the destruction of Earth, they only bombard the protoculture city trying to strike the
Macross.


    Yup, you're right. I didn't realise that those were seperate ships as the RPG book for the Zentraedi doesn't have the monitor in it. It only goes to prove that Palladium is even more inaccurate as both Breetai's flagship and Khyron's Command ship are said to have Heavy Particle Beams similar to the SDF-1's Reflux Cannon.

Quote
the truth is that the Macross is a common
Supervision Army crashed on earth on purpose and "booby trapped", not some kind of special ship.


    Supervision Army? I don't think the SDF-1 has any comparison to anything fielded within the Zentraedi fleet. I certainly don't think its a supership, but its probably a fairly unique design. The fact that it is able to change forms alone is telling as none of the Zentraedi ships or mecha can even do that. And considering that there are a lot of unexplored/undeveloped parts of the SDF-1, it seems unlikely that those wouldn't be explored if the Earth technicians had gone so far to make the ship able to change forms.

 

Offline Nico

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
The Supervision Army is something from Macross, it's not mentioned in Robotech.  Ryuune is right about that anyway, it's explained quickly by breetai in the first episode of Macross ( I stress Macross - not robotech ).
For the rest, can't say, I could see only up to the episode "ananas salad" ( the one where fokker dies ), I'll either have to wait for my bro to bring me the next test DVDs ( not likely to be anytime soon, is going abroad in a couple weeks ), or wait for the series to be available on sale. Next month, then.
And Robotech I just can't remember to clearly, haven't seen it for years.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 01:02:36 pm by 83 »
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Offline Unknown Target

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
For all storyline purposes, you should REALLY not look at Robotech, due to the hack-job that was done on it.

 
Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
The Supervision Army is something from Macross, it's not mentioned in Robotech. Ryuune is right about that anyway, it's explained quickly by breetai in the first episode of Macross


  When you say the first episode of Macross do you mean the first movie? Or is there some additional TV series that I am unaware of. I only watched the first movie once as my copy is second hand and pretty poor quality.

 

Offline Nico

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
No, the first episode of the Macross series ( booby trap ).
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Official Robotech Mod Thread
So, isn't that Robotech? (Booby Trap) OR are you talking about the Macross Series text before that american guy changed some of it to make all three of the series fit together?

 
Yup macross is only 1200meters. The main problem is it is grossly misrepresented in the city shots... I tried to make a screen shot off the dvd but sicne I used my comp to play ti it turned black. Too lazy to use my normal DVD for mow (maybe later as I have TV in capture capability again)...

   If you carefully watch the opening for boobytrap when it shows the wreck beign restored and teh city springing up around it take a GOOD look at the skyscapers (use pause at 2009 Date especially). Of course Animation cannot be exact to that degree back then BUT I feel teh animation better represented how big teh SDF-1 truly is. Oh I was wrong, it's NOT 30,000 civillians it's 70,000!

   Thinking about Rick and Minmeis weeks of wandering in the underdecks means there is a hell of a lot of WASTED SPACE that was NEVER used... BTW remember the Zent sized store rooms they found as well as teh FUNCTIONAL mecha sized airlock? Gee an airlock that big and not even an alarm to let the bridge know the hull is being compromised and atmosphere is being cycled? (after all it IS a major airlock and uses many more amount of air than a human sized one, you'd thiunk someone would notice it).

   Lastly of course we all know the fold system went by bye, but in recuilding the wreck they totally missed the enormous Protoculture chambers hidden in the three SDF-1 engine guts. I will need to rewatch that southern cross episode. LOL yeah a different series entirely but related as far as robotech is concerned.

  The reason I do accept the number listed but will ignore is is simply. The way it loos in game. IE> due to the window textures on the Romulan warbird (denoting decks) I had to make it 2000meters. If I can get some really good landmark shots of SDF-1 compared to fighters THAT is how I will match it up in game no matter WHAT the number says. The point is to be as close as possible to the FEEL of being in that universe, not blind accuracy to numbers.

  That's my true feelings on the matter.

   As for the macross cannon, you see it wipe out an entire pod battle group once as well as multiple Zent warships I believe (not that the Zents don't have equivilent weaponry, just you really don't see it). I think the MC is vastly underrated...

   And yes Human tactics and weapons advancement do occur in macross saga, albiet slowly, as you can see by the developement of newer types of platforms and munitions. (like the armored veritech rick saves Lisa's shuttle with) and the reflex warheads ALL the veritechs were armed with as well as the SDF-1 in the final FOA battle.

   As for the barrier thing and Dolza's fortress it's more plausible that it was a 50/50 thing. I believe the missle attack did indeed for all intents KILL Dolza's fortress but would have left a rotting derelict inspace. The amount of backfire and secondary explosions overloaded the barrier system wich allowed the sdf-1 to survive the unbelievable amount of energies released in that area. the resulting overload then vaporized the remain parts of the fortress and the systems of the SDF-1 finally shorted out and you saw many extremities also break away under this new level os stress.
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Offline Setekh

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
Oh, hey Star Dragon, I can see those photos at Yahoo now. Very cool. :)
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Official Robotech Mod Thread
Btw, I've found another website which may have some slightly more accurate information about the various mecha and ships. Though for the most part, it doesn't provide a strong numbers about hull strength. I do find the ship weapons loadouts and the like more compelling.

http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/robotech.html

 
Official Robotech Mod Thread
In the original Macross story, Dolza's mothership was destroyed by reaction weaponry (which are simply nukes, not super nukes, just normal thermonuclear ones.  It just so happens that the zentraidi lost that technology). fired from within it where the armour isn't nearly as strong.


The Grand Cannon was awesomely powerful.  Too bad the zentraidi fleet was awesomely huge.

The Macross was a supervision army gunship.  Nothing really too special, but its main cannon was indeed more powerful than the main cannons of the zentraidi warships.  After all, it's destructive radius is about 1 mile wide.

Nevertheless, the zentradi could've destroyed the Macross without breaking a sweat had not they wanted to capture it so as to take a look at "protoculture" (not the same as the robotech version, it's culture, not a battery!).


The Total Barrier System was never intended to be used as a weapon and they didn't use it again afterwards since when it overloaded, it killed the hundreds of operators as well (not exactly a good thing).

The Macross cannon can easily kill anything in it path (besides protodeviln), but it can't fire that quickly and is only 1 mile wide.  In the vastness of space, 1 mile is spitting distance and any fleet worth it's salt wouldn't all be clustered so close anyways (especially after you've seen such a weapon used once).

 

Offline Nico

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Re: did a little digging...
Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
Thinking about Rick and Minmeis weeks of wandering in the underdecks means there is a hell of a lot of WASTED SPACE that was NEVER used... BTW remember the Zent sized store rooms they found as well as teh FUNCTIONAL mecha sized airlock? Gee an airlock that big and not even an alarm to let the bridge know the hull is being compromised and atmosphere is being cycled? (after all it IS a major airlock and uses many more amount of air than a human sized one, you'd thiunk someone would notice it).


The show is from 1982, and not done by NASA engineers. You're looking too much into it, pal :p ( and should I remind you that the airlock has a sas, it's not opening directly on the room, so your point isn't exactly valid. Finally, the airlock isn't mecha-sized, it's zentraedi sized :D )

oh, I love the "simplyu nukes", ChronoReverse :p
We should stop playing FS2, being used to AM wepons not doing snitch to capships kind of makes us lose our grasp on reality :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 02:28:59 am by 83 »
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Official Robotech Mod Thread
Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
So, isn't that Robotech? (Booby Trap) OR are you talking about the Macross Series text before that american guy changed some of it to make all three of the series fit together?


There is only one TV serie of Macross, and that is the first Robotech part, and there is a movie Macross Dyrl, when we say "Macross TV" or "Macross serie" we are talking about what you saw in Robotech, of course without the america dubbing and plot changes.

 
Re: did a little digging...
Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
Yup macross is only 1200meters. The main problem is it is grossly misrepresented in the city shots... I tried to make a screen shot off the dvd but sicne I used my comp to play ti it turned black. Too lazy to use my normal DVD for mow (maybe later as I have TV in capture capability again)...


 Yes i agree that the city look way to big in the serie than it could fit into a 1200m ship, the show wasn't very accurate about this...

Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
Lastly of course we all know the fold system went by bye, but in recuilding the wreck they totally missed the enormous Protoculture chambers hidden in the three SDF-1 engine guts. I will need to rewatch that southern cross episode. LOL yeah a different series entirely but related as far as robotech is concerned.


There is no such things a protoculture chambers on the Macross, and Southern Cross as n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with Macross, and you know that. An protoculture is not a technology, for god's sake!!

Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
 The reason I do accept the number listed but will ignore is is simply. The way it loos in game. IE> due to the window textures on the Romulan warbird (denoting decks) I had to make it 2000meters. If I can get some really good landmark shots of SDF-1 compared to fighters THAT is how I will match it up in game no matter WHAT the number says. The point is to be as close as possible to the FEEL of being in that universe, not blind accuracy to numbers.


I can post many shot that will prove the Macross is 1200m long, especially when you watch the Valkyrie on the Prometeus and compare the fighters to the carrier size.

  That's my true feelings on the matter.

Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
   As for the macross cannon, you see it wipe out an entire pod battle group once as well as multiple Zent warships I believe (not that the Zents don't have equivilent weaponry, just you really don't see it). I think the MC is vastly underrated...


I don't think the Main cannon is able to destroy more than one enemy warship at once, not cause the power, who is sufficient to destroy ANY warship, but the fact the width of the beam isn't sufficient enought. It can easily destroy squadrons of battle pods in its path tought.

 

Offline Nico

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Official Robotech Mod Thread
well, it does destroy a few capships in one shot from times to times ( first time the SDF1 tranforms, for exemple ). But that's one occurence of the "sometuime I'm big, sometime I'm small" scale variation syndrom that you find in, well, about any show ( what scifi show doesn't have a size argument, I ask you? between Babylon 5 where the ships can be twice bigger than in the begining of the episode, or the famous SSD size argument? Sounds like kids comparing their "stuff" behind the school :p ).
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