Author Topic: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy  (Read 31323 times)

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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Society Has ****ed Up Attitude Towards Sex; Film at Eleven.
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schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Society Has ****ed Up Attitude Towards Sex; Film at Eleven.

QFT

And also for the pun.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
I've already mentioned that earlier in the thread. Stealing cars, commiting murders and running a gang is apparently fine. Having consensual sex with your girlfriend is not... And I've seen cases (mostly in the US) when you don't even need to have sex, just be nude from waist down. That's "modern society" for you.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
But how would we protect kids from the tit of evil? Some guy said we have to!

I am sorry about hatred getting shafted. Because if it was a film about someone going on killing spree after they cracked, it would have gotten pass and praise. Just look at the 80-90s for examples of how this was done before.

 
Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
All that stuff's secondary, what's applicable to the topic of this thread is that those attitudes are enforced by industry self-censorship and popular pressure and certain people in this thread are stringently apologising for these practices because they happen to have ended up on a certain side of the issue of the month.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
The idea that the very concept of self-censorship should be abhorred is just ****ing alien to me, or that the concept of social acceptability is likewise, or that the concept of appropriate content is, or the concept of commercial self-determination for businesses.  Even if you don't hit all those checkboxes, you sure as hell hit at least one.  The developers of Hatred have a couple options at this point.  They include censoring the game to get down to an M rating; or keeping the game exactly as is and getting the AO rating, foregoing regular distribution and retail presence (of which the main advantage is publicity, which Hatred already has in spades).

Am I apologizing for the existence of the ESRB and corporate self-determination?  You're absolutely right I am.  A major distributor or retail corporation should never be obligated to sell x product regardless of reasoning.  If that's not what you're saying there is no problem here.  If that is what you're saying, too ****ing bad. 

The ESRB is not a static instrument or a social engineering construct.  What gets rated T nowadays would have solidly been M a decade ago.  Prime example: Destiny.  It contains arguably worse violence and even language than Halo: Combat Evolved, which was slapped with an M when it was released.  The worst word anyone ever says in Halo: CE is "****", and it's in the script exactly once.  No characters besides the Flood are even visibly injured at any time, up to and including their death by violent explosion.  No character displays more than 10% total skin surface area with the exception of Cortana who is a computer program and has no naughty bits to speak of.  That game got an M.  If that's not a pretty strong indicator that the ESRB doesn't approach games from the framework of conservative social engineering (which is pretty much what the crux of your disagreement stems from, unless I am quite earnestly unable to comprehend your objection), I don't know what is.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
If you're female and go topless for a few minutes in most jurisdictions the ESRB covers, you have a chance of getting arrested (even though in some of them it's legal; you'd be surprised how many people don't know the law and are cops).

If you're female and go topless in Dragon Age Inquisition for a few minutes, you don't actually get censored. The ESRB? More progressive than the law? It's more likely than you think!

You're arguing this grand overarching conspiracy, but the examples you've used for it are clearly exceptions to the rules of how things normally work, and now you're forced to rely on vague assertions of ad hominem. The vaguer your arguments become, the less we should take them seriously.

You want a grand conspiracy; we've actually got the Supreme Court, which makes silly decisions occasionally but in general does attempt to reflect the will of the people and provide a mechanism by which the law can be made to match what people want the law to be.

Put up or shut up, Phantom. Lay out a case.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
The ESRB mechanic is insane, the process of how they define something to be either a letter or another is insane. The conservative mindset behind it is ghastly, and the example Scotty had about a word "****ty" being the reason why Halo got a letter rather than another is just so typical. And ridiculous, considering the amount of deaths that game portrays. Somehow a somewhat soft curse word is the big social problem here?

But regarding Hatred, well what did they expect? If you're going to go out on a limb and create the least PC game ever invented, well it is actually fitting you get the Ao rating. Don't ****ing complain about it, publicize the **** out of it. "Our game is so nasty they even had to ressurect the Ao rating out of Mordor's graveyard for it!"

Wasn't this what you wanted? Come on! Aren't you entertained? COME ON.

Regarding this:

Quote
The counterpoint to your point is the question of whether the sorts of things that result in a game being rated AO bring anything constructive or beneficial to the medium that their absence leaves lacking.  Given how lenient the ESRB is on rating games AO already, I'm not sure that there's a major detriment going on here

This is so anti-art that I won't even comment on it. I'll just leave it up here and admire it. 2015, this is what you have become.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Quote
The counterpoint to your point is the question of whether the sorts of things that result in a game being rated AO bring anything constructive or beneficial to the medium that their absence leaves lacking.  Given how lenient the ESRB is on rating games AO already, I'm not sure that there's a major detriment going on here

This is so anti-art that I won't even comment on it. I'll just leave it up here and admire it. 2015, this is what you have become.

I'll have a little go at it though. Because that is a question only each individual should be asking for themselves.

A body like the ESRB is a good thing as long as it doesn't have any actual power. As long as you're free to treat the verdicts it gives on games as guidelines and suggestions. It is what I've done my whole life with things with age ratings slapped on them. I look at the little comments (things like strong language, strong violence, etc.) and the number is a guide to how severe those things are, and then I make my decision. In such a capacity they are a useful tool to help me to decide if I want to purchase a product. Give them power to be making that decision for you, and suddenly they turn into sanctimonious judges of taste, overruling your own judgement of what fits into your taste.

The idea that the very concept of self-censorship should be abhorred is just ****ing alien to me, or that the concept of social acceptability is likewise, or that the concept of appropriate content is, or the concept of commercial self-determination for businesses.  Even if you don't hit all those checkboxes, you sure as hell hit at least one.  The developers of Hatred have a couple options at this point.  They include censoring the game to get down to an M rating; or keeping the game exactly as is and getting the AO rating, foregoing regular distribution and retail presence (of which the main advantage is publicity, which Hatred already has in spades).

This bit interests me. For me, self-censorship is not the problem. Involuntary self-censorship is the problem. I wonder how you feel about that? Not buying a copy of Hatred because it doesn't interest you is a voluntary decision. Not buying a copy of Hatred because it's not on the shelf is not a voluntary decision. Someone made that decision for you. That decision has been taken away from you by someone deciding what is best for you without your consent. By someone making a decision that should not be their decision to make.

If a company decides not to stock Hatred because they think they won't make a profit, that is a voluntary decision. If a company decides not to stock Hatred because they feel it would make a profit but would bring trouble with it from external pressures, that is not a voluntary decision, it's an imposed decision by outside influences. By more sanctimonious, self-appointed judges of taste looking to impose their narrow definitions of what is acceptable and isn't upon all of us. The problem there isn't the company, it's the external pressure. The company should be able to choose their own reasons for not stocking something. That includes if they simply don't like it enough not to stock it for whatever reason. But if it's because they think others who don't like it will make trouble for them, that is not their decision, it's been imposed upon them by others.

If something is truly not going to be beneficial, you don't have to lift a finger. Because hardly anyone will buy it. Because hardly anyone will be interested in it. The problem will take care of itself.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
The thing about Hatred is that it kind-of ticks both boxes. It is a game that would make lots of profit because of sanctimonious self-appointed people try to impose their definitions of good taste on it, rather than the fact it is a good game (it might even be a good game, but that's not what it will be remembered for).

At the end of the day, some people shouted, Steam removed a game, everyone else shouted, Steam put it back, yay for Customer Feedback. In some ways this entire thing feels like an awful lot of wasted rage.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
I think both you and Lorric are exactly right, the problem is this perceived external pressure from sanctimonious "institutions". They not only create these problems for producers, they even end up creating silly games like "Hatred" as a collateral damage.

Reminds me of an anecdote regarding the first Star Wars movie. It was about to have a kids rating, I think PG. In a pre viewing, however, when Vader chokes captain Antilles, a young boy in the audience cries a bit. And for that mere accident, the movie got PG13 and the producers sighed with relief because it would mean they would target their intended audience. The randomness of these things are ridiculous.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
The "best", most desirable ratings seem to be in the middle ground. Too low and hardly anybody will be interested because they'd expect the work to be aimed specifically at young children. Too high and you'll cut out a large part of  your audience and risk being lumped in with porn. I suspect that the story about Star Wars is apocryphal, it's likely they simply negotiated the higher rating to get the audience they wanted (besides, there are a few more "kid-unfriendly" scenes besides the one with Vader).

I don't think that not being stocked in retail stores will have any impact on Hatred. Who buys games in retail these days, anyway? Steam... that's surely going to be interesting. On one hand, it never carried an AO-rated game before. On the other hand, it already got flak for pulling it, and had stated that there's nothing wrong with it. That puts them into a very uncomfortable situation. I think that it will be very bad for their credibility if they pulled it again. There's no law saying they can't have an AO-rated game, and they have seen it before ESRB did. So it might just become the first AO game on Steam. Also, it might just be the start of a new Steam policy of not adding games to Greenlight that have ratings pending.
If you're female and go topless for a few minutes in most jurisdictions the ESRB covers, you have a chance of getting arrested (even though in some of them it's legal; you'd be surprised how many people don't know the law and are cops).

If you're female and go topless in Dragon Age Inquisition for a few minutes, you don't actually get censored. The ESRB? More progressive than the law? It's more likely than you think!
Not that it's saying much, the law isn't exactly known for being progressive, either (at least in the US. Netherlands, for example, are a different story). Though that's actually heavily state-dependent. It is certainly more progressive than most police (who tend to not know that), but that's not saying much, either. :)

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
I'm not sure, but isn't the ESRB rating system entirely voluntary anyway? Like with film classification, it's funded by the Industry itself isn't it?

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
So I decided to watch the trailer...


Now okay, I don't know, it might have something particularly gruesome hidden away in there. But is what I'm seeing on there really worse in any significant way than say, a Grand Theft Auto rampage? It's also third person which takes you away from the violence somewhat as opposed to first person, and the newest Grand Theft Auto is first person. I'd argue that the violence is more impactful from the new Grand Theft Auto in first person than what I see there in Hatred.

Or what about comparing to some of the other offerings of video games?


 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Flipside: Yes, it is.

Also, Luis, my point with Halo wasn't that the word "****" turned it into an M rated game (it didn't).  It was that the ratings system evolves as time passes, and that a game that was M in the past would not be now.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Well, from what I can see, the ESRB act as a 'buffer' between the Right-Wing elements of American government, who wish to impose laws regarding content and/or availability of media and the Industry which would rather be open, but are willing to self-regulate as a compromise.

The thing is, if you create a game, call it 'Hatred' and make it about a shooting-spree by a psychopath and then send it to the ESRB for rating, I personally have an idea that you are pretty certain you are going to get an AO rating before you start, since something as close to this to the very thing that scares the lawmakers about Computer games is going to create claims of them not doing their job if they did not. It's no-win for the ESRB really.

The thing is, this HAS been done, the exact same mechanics in general, but they changed the story and called it 'Syndicate Wars' (not to mention the games like GTA and others that did similar stuff), and I do find myself wondering whether the whole idea of sending it for rating was to generate this kind of publicity.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 12:59:25 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
That is right. As I said, if the goal was to make the least pc game ever, well, congrats, mission successful. Lets remind ourselves however that only two other games got this rating for other than sexual reasons, and one of those got re edited to get out of that rating (ManHunt 2). The other was cancelled before release (Thrill Kill). Ten years ago, this would have been over for Hatred, but given we now have Steam, I wonder. Let's see what they will do.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Reminds me of an anecdote regarding the first Star Wars movie. It was about to have a kids rating, I think PG. In a pre viewing, however, when Vader chokes captain Antilles, a young boy in the audience cries a bit. And for that mere accident, the movie got PG13 and the producers sighed with relief because it would mean they would target their intended audience. The randomness of these things are ridiculous.
This must have been a story from a non-MPAA using country as our PG-13 rating didn't exist until 1984--SW was and remains PG. It was discomfort about movies like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom getting PG ratings that inspired the new category.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
I don't recall the exact denomination. I heard this story in a recent google talk (weeks ago) from a star wars buff. It was a very entertaining talk about the making of the first movie.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Game attempts to attract controversy; attracts controversy
Talking about the making of Star Wars is difficult because Lucas went out of his way to revise history one he became truly successful. :P