Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Test Builds => Topic started by: Echelon9 on December 27, 2008, 03:11:10 am
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A fix for Mantis 1855 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1855) is currently undergoing testing. Could Mac users who have noticed the 'white-textured' problems since the introduction of the GLSL feature in July 2008 please test the below build? I'd be interested to hear whether you use Leopard (10.5.x) or Tiger (10.4.x) and what graphics card you have.
The build contains all fixes including and up to r5020, plus the GLSL shader fixes to resolve Mantis 1855.
Builds for Windows and Linux that incorporate the same change should be out soon, to ensure that we don't take one step forward fixing things for Mac, and two backwards by breaking something else on Windows and Linux.
FS2_Open r5020 rosebay.zip (http://members.iinet.net.au/~tjkidd/fs2open/build/mac/FS2_Open%20r5020%20rosebay.zip)
MD5 (FS2_Open r5020 rosebay.zip) = 858f566dad78a468873349762099d82c
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OMG - it's working.! :yes:
MacOS X 10.4.11 (G5/7800GT) working in fullscreen and windowed mode, everything ok
MacOS X 10.5.6 (G5/7800GT) working in fullscreen and windowed mode, but in techroom the model rotates with about 1-2fps, ingame it's about 4 to 8 fps
Edit: just tested with MBP Nvidia9400M working in fullscreen and windowed mode, everything ok, ingame 60fps, but in techroom models rotate with lower fps, I assume it's about 11-16 fps for the Ullysses
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Good to hear that it appears the Mac OpenGL problems might be fixed for all.
Taylor has some further graphics performance improvement changes to commit to trunk (the nightly builds). It's just a better habit of open source project management to make small, granular changes that address one particular feature at a time.
As always, we should appreciate taylor's contributions to the SCP.
Oh, and also make sure you add -normal and -height to your command line. You might as well enjoy the eye-candy now it works for us!
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:jaw: It works!! :jaw:
Congratulations! :) Glad to see this longstanding issue has finally been resolved. Also appears to fix the lighting issues in no_glsl mode. On a side note, environmental mapping is still pretty broken, but I'm pretty sure this is a separate issue, and I will be submitting it to mantis later today.
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Also appears to fix the lighting issues in no_glsl mode. On a side note, environmental mapping is still pretty broken, but I'm pretty sure this is a separate issue, and I will be submitting it to mantis later today.
It was pleasing to see the -no_glsl lighting fixed too, for as GLSL is on by default we want those with hardware not quite able to support it to not be disadvantaged. I also noticed some env map weirdness, but I think it's a separate issue to be addressed in due course.
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One other thing I was interested in know for sure, is if -no_glsl behaves the same as leaving GLSL enabled on a card that doesn't support GLSL, or when no shaders were found. To my knowledge, all of those cases should behave identically. This is definitely a great fix though. Echelon and Taylor deserve some mad props for this one, getting it fixed over the holidays even.
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Oh wow this is huge ! Now to get a wanderer version of this (or just get the radar icons committed to trunk finally)
taylor and echelon, thanks very much for this fix to a really depressing problem !
*edit*
Okay, spoke to soon. I can confirm that it works to enable normal maps, but it significantly damages the FPS to the point where the game is unplayable with it on.
This is on a 2008 Intel Macbook Pro with an nvidia 8600M GT, Core 2 Duo @ 2.4 Ghz. The game is really fast with it off, ultra slow with it on, full screen mode tested.
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Well it'll be in trunk soon, assuming it doesn't break anything, and then the next time Wanderer syncs his branch there could be a Wanderer build. But that stuff will be committed to trunk shortly after 3.6.10 is released (there's only a few serious bugs left!)
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*edited for clarity*
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neoterran, I've got pretty much the same laptop as you, and yes I've also seen my FPS drop when the GLSL normal maps are turned on.
In part some performance impact is to be expected - after all few graphical improvements come at zero cost - but there are more general OpenGL tweaks to be committed that should improve FPS a bit. We're not able to quantify exactly what that improvement will be at this early stage. Also as I get more familiar with the code I've noticed some areas that might benefit from further optimization.
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*edited for clarity*
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Yeah, i've gotten it completely repeatable now, and this may be something of value for you or not. Go into the F3 room and load the Level 0 Uly. The FPS counter comes up when the model shows up with normal maps. it's around 8fps to 11fps for me for around 20 seconds, after which there is always a sudden jump to 30 fps range. I've repeated the behavior 4 times.
This is on Mac OS X 10.5.6.
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There seems to be 3 levels so far at which the FPS in the F3 room stay stable. the first is 8 to 10 fps, then, there is a jump to the 30 fps range, and a little bit later on there is a further jump to around 50 fps. It's pretty interesting, and unusual. In the missions too, i think i'm seeing the same behavior - at first, very slow, and then speeds up after you've been in the mission for a little bit. The windows version didn't exhibit this behavior. Anyway, it would be nice if another mac user could play around with it for a while and corroborate what I'm seeing.
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Okay, some more feedback. Sorry for the post amounts, but I figure few other macbook users are as adept and long term users of freespace as me, or willing to give this level of feedback.
With -no_glsl on : FPS with models are at a close to constant 60 fps. The lighting face issue is also now solved. This is a big step forward, regardless!
The frame jumping is very interesting with glsl on and normal maps enabled. It's repeatable with no action from me just being patient and sitting in the F3 room, doing nothing. However, When i load other models after the frames on the uly are high, (for example, i load the ursa) I get the bad frames performance again (8 to 10 fps) for a bit, until it too alleviates. If you guys want me to take screenshots to show the fps, i can do that since it's repeatable.
The fact that I've seen the models work at around 50 fps with normal and glsl on means that that's probably what the perforamnce level should be on this machine. 8 to 10 fps is very low, and that's what it always starts out at. I also notice after the framerate jumps up, if you just go to the normal "tech room" the model is rotating with significantly higher rates there too, whereas it was slow at first as well.
However, the performance issue appears to occur again on each mission load. I'll need to do more testing with fps enabled to determine if that is the case.
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Some more things I noticed.
I'm in the F3 room, loaded the Uly, starts rendering at 8 to 11 fps. After about 30 seconds or so, the rendering goes up to 30-33 fps. Then after another 30 seconds or so, the rendering reaches 50-52fps, from which it does not get any higher.
Here's the interesting part. If i now open the render options screen and toggle normal maps off, I immediately suffer the drop down to 11 fps range for another period of time, which returns again eventually to the 52fps upper limit. After this occurs once, i can toggle normal maps on and off again with no FPS loss at all. Even more interestingly, If I toggle Glow maps, or specular pass, the same behavior occurs.
This is pretty cool considering it's all repeatable right there in the F3 room. (what's that feature called again anyway ?)
Anyway, I realized different models have different fps averages, so I decided to stick with the ulysses, but i can repeat this behavior with all of them. And if a mod wants to clean up this thread as I was posting while testing, some of the earlier assumptions aren't quite right, so it might be a good thing. This is the most relevant post.
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Okay, testing with the mediavps in mission one of the main freespace campaign (3.6.10 complete used) :
initial fps at beginning of mission (with glsl on, normal maps enabled) ~ 5 fps.
initial fps at beginning of mission (with -no_glsl, no normals) ~ 60 fps.
To me, that's not the hit you'd expect from enabling normal maps. It's certainly not the hit you take on windows.
Anyway, with no_glsl on, the game now has the env mapping and lighting actually working correctly, so I'm super happy for this build and the fixes. It's just that on mac, the normal mapping has something else going on in fullscreen mode (I only do testing in fullscreen mode) that is affecting it's performance.
This is my last post for feedback on the subject. :D
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Here's the screenshots :
Initial FPS on model :
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5589/startje6.th.jpg) (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=startje6.jpg)
After 30 or so seconds :
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5247/middleju7.th.jpg) (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=middleju7.jpg)
Final FPS :
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5507/endhg5.th.jpg) (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=endhg5.jpg)
I imagine this issue occurs during the missions, but with different ships coming in and out, it's probably impossible to really test that.
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I seemed to notice something like that in the tech room, where I can detect a slight skipping for a little bit, and then it seems to smooth out. I definitely noticed it with the Uly too. Not as sharp on some other fighters, but still there. And this was on a Windows box so maybe it's not isolated to OS X, but perhaps exaggerated.
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Here's the map toggling behavior (works for the first time only with either env mapping, normals, or specular)
Start, after FPS has risen to max :
(http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1313/startng7.th.jpg) (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=startng7.jpg)
After disabling normals :
(http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/4416/toggle1yh3.th.jpg) (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=toggle1yh3.jpg)
the frames immediately drop to 10 for several seconds, and eventually rise back up like in the first pic.
After re-enabling normals:
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/45/endio1.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=endio1.jpg)
this has no effect on the fps. From this point on I can toggle normal maps on and off with no FPS effect.
*edit* fixed last pic.
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I seemed to notice something like that in the tech room, where I can detect a slight skipping for a little bit, and then it seems to smooth out. I definitely noticed it with the Uly too. Not as sharp on some other fighters, but still there. And this was on a Windows box so maybe it's not isolated to OS X, but perhaps exaggerated.
Yeah, i know what you're talking about, and I think that's the normal behavior, but these FPS drops are for prolonged periods, not just a second or two. It's definately worse in the mac build. I'm just trying to show what's going on as those with knowledge of the rendering code might be able to draw a conclusion from this behavior.
Anyway, I don't want to discourage you guys. This is the most significant improvement on the mac we've had in a year or so since this problem has existed, and the entire game on the mac is much more playable, and the lighting way, way nicer in no_glsl mode/fullscreen, even if I still can't really use glsl. I just thought I should give you exhaustive feedback on it early on in the process.
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Neoterran, not septuple posting plz. Just edit your posts to add new information :doubt:
And I don't think the FPS weirdness is related to the issue at hand. I've seen it too (it existed before the GLSL fix).
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Well it doesn't exist at all when no_glsl is turned on. And before, on macs, you if you had no_glsl off, then you had all white models in full screen and totally ****ty fps in window mode.
Sorry for the multiple posts. I made them over several hours of testing on my time. I was hoping it might be appreciated a little better. :rolleyes:
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Well it doesn't exist at all when no_glsl is turned on. And before, on macs, you if you had no_glsl off, then you had all white models in full screen and totally ****ty fps in window mode.
Sorry for the multiple posts. I made them over several hours of testing on my time. I was hoping it might be appreciated a little better. :rolleyes:
It doesn't exist when no_glsl is turned on because it has to do with shaders.
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ummm.... "And I don't think the FPS weirdness is related to the issue at hand."
isn't the issue at hand fixing the shader / normal mapping via shader support ?
If it was just to fix the lighting and env mapping when no_glsl is turned on, then you already succeeded. That is definately better now.
However, when people are telling me "hey, that FPS drop you see - that's just because you turned the shaders on" - and those people are SCP team members - I think I should say, no, hey, there's another problem.
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Well, the issue at hand was fixing a specific bug causing graphics to not work properly in full-screen mode. While there were shaders involved in the issue, it wasn't specific to shaded rendering.
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Okay, well then maybe we should open another Mantis entry that says "Shaders on OS X result in a completely unacceptable performance loss".
whatever. I'm through wasting any more of my time giving feedback on this.
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To be fair, shaded rendering does take up a lot more processing power than fixed rendering does...
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No. You don't lose close to 90 percent of your framerate enabling shaders on windows, and the fact you're still bringing that up makes me think that you're not even reading the thread. I posted all this info so that the team would have an empirical example of what a typical macbook user sees using the game. The fact that it's still being blown off (for the second time, I might add) as "you enabled the shaders, that's why there is a FPS loss" is just really making me mad, because it means I've totally wasted hours trying to document and expose the issue. :sigh:
I mean look at this : 110 fps
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9127/picture1au9.th.jpg) (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1au9.jpg)
vs this : 2 fps (only difference : no_glsl off)
(http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/7195/picture2xh4.th.jpg) (http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2xh4.jpg)
Anyway, as I said, my final post on the matter.
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I think he means the point of this particular issue is to make sure that nothing got worse with this new fix. Your detailed reporting concerns issues with OS X that existed before this fix. Don't worry, the feedback is appreciated but the problem isn't new to this patch so it shouldn't block it from being committed. And, as long as -no_glsl works, OS X shouldn't be in too much worse shape than they were before the GLSL commit from July, which means this particular issue shouldn't be holding up 3.6.10.
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[...]you enabled the shaders, that's why there is a FPS loss" is just really making me mad, because it means I've totally wasted hours trying to document and expose the issue. :sigh:
Anyway, as I said, my final post on the matter.
neoterran, please calm down.
I understand your point completely, but believe me, all people working out problems and document them are working a lot of their spare time on this, like you. And it will take its time before most of the problems are solved - and there is no "wasted hours trying" to do something to help.
With this large project things have to be changed step by step. We should be lucky that some developers have time to work on the MacOS X codebase, because as I see from the d/ls there are not so many Mac users around - this may change in the next years, i think.
So please don't take the posts here to seriously... :)
edit:
just played around on the F3 screen
I do not know if it is helpful, but i have 4 fps with the Ulysses and when I turn on "fixed render pipeline" in the render options the fps jump to 60 (which is the limit by vsync) and the cpu load is considerable lower than with "fixed render pipeline" disabled.
I have not the least inkling what "fixed render pipeline" is, though.
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I do not know if it is helpful, but i have 4 fps with the Ulysses and when I turn on "fixed render pipeline" in the render options the fps jump to 60 (which is the limit by vsync) and the cpu load is considerable lower than with "fixed render pipeline" disabled.
I have not the least inkling what "fixed render pipeline" is, though.
"Fixed render pipeline" just means that you aren't using shaders (ie, -no_glsl).
The FPS problem, along with the CPU load difference simply indicates that at least some part of the shaders is running in software mode. If it were all hardware then the speed would be about the same as -no_glsl. This basically just indicates a driver problem, where the shaders are trying to use something that only has a software fallback. I'm not sure what shader set you are using, my 1119 set or what is in the MediaVPs, but I would just suggest trying whichever set you aren't using now and seeing if it makes a difference.
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I'm not sure what shader set you are using, my 1119 set or what is in the MediaVPs, but I would just suggest trying whichever set you aren't using now and seeing if it makes a difference.
I use the mv_complete.vp of the 3610mediavps, usually.
All comments are for the Ulysses LOD 0 windowed (wim) mode and fullscreen (fsc) mode:
the shaders in mv_complete.vp show 4fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.5.6 all the time with no change.
the 1119 shaders show 7-8fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.5.6 for about 40-60s , CPU load both cores 100%
then the fps rises from 7 to 30fps(wim)/43fps(fsc), the cpu load is then decreasing to 80% for both CPUs
then after about 20s the fps rises to 60, cpu load is then decreasing to 40-50% for both CPUs
(this is showing again after leaving and reentering F3-screen)
the mv_complete.vp shaders show 60fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.4.11 immediately
the 1119 shaders show 60fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.4.11 immediately
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/me tests r5020 rosebay on -mod mediavps without -window.
Hey! It works! I entered the techroom and it worked! Everything looks smooth!
/me tests out his TSM-69.
All right, I've managed to get fourteen screenshots. Here they are:
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pnm_vAM0mIJvHnVBRDyu9229YxESU_VntubwVC7RM5K8GcuqpJUAGAUfNsuruB274oOTsQ43syuEhWAZaMtsMAg/Screen_18.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1ptGR1HsOZcqGUnhxYWZJLIs65v451tQh5BQVHtloH-I_cfrR9WgCNhWKqlbTUTPnqGbZP3rwNVsH9X7QYI4Z7kA/Screen_19.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p1VlKslPjwFrBR5dw3kouQgHlJxoTrCvj7fN0Rh66KGdAAEX4Vgaj5SV_BQkSMgXxgMlN3XstaU8hUAp7vo9o6w/Screen_20.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pBRcdiuBBGlUS2qLyw5wR8r4k-TQF6XLXb_B8dQrmrpIypDZD89XEimezRB9YuEXHLxFpHPsPawQkR5cHO0jgWg/Screen_21.png)
Is that how it's supposed to look?
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pGK_ab1IUrSh2WdpqDAck7B81hvmP9j1aHYx6jW6sFZcyjbFaGEzjTICBswY7yrEBO4GgXWBS9CmrbP__3UPPPg/Screen_22.png)
If you look closely at the Colossus, you see somebody's computer. :nervous:
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pHUksihNJEUQziySay2x0Arx58I_XDr86X-n456uoYAHyv4kUNqiqy4MxBZTGtKRJ2lsUfBe7vuO6_JmV8A3AIg/Screen_23.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1poctsmR6AHPdqK9p7BS6dRtOxYg_hIioILwt2htdh2YJmJRdWMn45VWeAQjxSZCWaRjcAS4Tq2yVdU5L3dr6X9Q/Screen_24.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p3OPH-26zn35T7LvLJd4epqs8rBdixOJ_EVwKWkHf5ILzMSj6hxj6sscg6fc26vLfxuQtQ3BJT9XCtsSsaA5LCQ/Screen_25.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pJObF_t_gcwCADxhbBKzpId2zq_MdHM75YUSPILwQnKjOndoVIlX3sBJlJ4llxqPvB8QO1bshx0eCSuG351E41Q/Screen_26.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pcfnPBoJ2b2lFhIi8MbPXP55oGQNmew4ztXSet_sdeOG5vsiTmF-XlSlJA_6kj52ptyGhK2JS_7suh_ta9SQOmw/Screen_27.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p3MmDfsAKNw3k2Bhe70fZ9Q9Gcw0HzV9ufMBoQspFRkyc5C4QoAvyigdjTVdHbrGe3EdvTR9skyMhvdECS2pdrw/Screen_28.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1phJwJjuk1PC2P4WgPN5GTtbtz7-VmJWfSwGkPWjaSGCS7nrI1dbgxjJ1eoeUuTA4YnKq84VaB6StWGLS0NSwSaw/Screen_29.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pQyhsC9ji9f_2Mfnz4ZGvmU3UYFKin0zmy8xNTlIm8iNhF2SJ5UBRUVQU0lOMkASOvnNpINAqwuMYgDHU1syJeg/Screen_30.png)
(http://kn46fg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pSEZ5POZDLG3cmSWXCE6CcjC8qmcK2MsBXI-tX7FFhBMPWqPga4qOg2srHBeKdanVpPdOSI3QsO-eySeOexZNww/Screen_31.png)
If you look closely at the flak turret to the left, you can see a portion of somebody' computer. :nervous:
Apart from someone's computer being reflected, everything else looks all right to me while I was flying about in that mission.
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That sounds like the environment mapping bug that blowfish was talking about. Sounds like the next biggest problem with OS X graphics. Only seems to happen with shaders enabled.
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That sounds like the environment mapping bug that blowfish was talking about. Sounds like the next biggest problem with OS X graphics. Only seems to happen with shaders enabled.
I've seen it both with and without shaders.
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Ok my bad then.
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This is committed now. Will be in the next nightly r5028 or higher.
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Fantastic to seem normal maps working on Mac!!! :D
But - I'm having the exact same symptoms of frame rate degredation as Neoterran - with the exact same computer (macbook pro 2.4GHz, early 2008). I'm running nightly build FS2_Open-20090106_r5034.
the shaders in mv_complete.vp show 4fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.5.6 all the time with no change.
the 1119 shaders show 7-8fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.5.6 for about 40-60s , CPU load both cores 100%
then the fps rises from 7 to 30fps(wim)/43fps(fsc), the cpu load is then decreasing to 80% for both CPUs
then after about 20s the fps rises to 60, cpu load is then decreasing to 40-50% for both CPUs
(this is showing again after leaving and reentering F3-screen)
the mv_complete.vp shaders show 60fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.4.11 immediately
the 1119 shaders show 60fps in F3 screen with MacOS 10.4.11 immediately
Does that mean it is an OS X 10.5 driver issue maybe? In my opinion apple has been getting a little more sloppy lately, so it wouldn't surprise me. I could test on my old mac that runs 10.4.11, but it is a lot slower (1.25GHz single G4).
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looks like a driver issue on MacOS X 10.5.x
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I'll try to take a look at the performance impact on Mac over the next few weeks. Just to be clear, yes I do feel there is an issue when enabling shaders causes a drop in FPS to low 10s while enabling shaders in Windows on the same hardware only leads to a marginal drop in FPS.
This issue is very unlikely to have been caused by the changes in revision 5028 that stopped white models appearing on Mac fullscreen, merely we are noticing it now because running in windowed mode with shaders (which was the only option prior to r5028) was always going to see a performance hit with the desktop chrome still being rendered and OpenGL not receiving dedicated access to the hardware.
In fact, just thinking about it then, these performance problems and the odd issue with the reflectivity on ships actually reflecting your desktop (Finder window, browser, iTunes) rather than space around Capella could be related...
In any case, I'll be using a new thread and a new release should I make headway with this.