[Qent]

Okay, here's some non-technical stuff:

Spoiler:

The first thing I noticed was that Myrms can carry Harpoons. It made it easier I suppose, but it bugs me for some reason. I guess I just fall in the -never-intended-the-Myrm-to-get-Harpoons camp.

The first mission was fun. Maybe a little BoE-ish, but I actually enjoy wading through swarms of puny Shivan fighters. That fighter thing with loads of beam cannons looked awesome too.

But then the second mission... had way too much waiting (karma?). No fighting and not even any dialog. First I turned on time compression, then I wandered off to shoot asteroids. To top it all off, I got caught in the beam spam when the destroyers jumped in.

That's all I've played at the moment, but I plan to finish the campaign. Ironically, the long discussion about bugs and bug testing is the only thing that made me download this.

But don't get so hostile over this. People have been trying to tell you gently that your standards of bug-freeness are too low. As an engineer I can tell you that anything built/programmed/whatever needs some margin of safety built in.

[Deka1184]

I'll read the rest of what you said later, but for starters, you said:

So your argument is that its not a prick move to come into someones mod thread and say that its so terrible it should be reduced to unfinished beta status and a mod should flag it as such in the first post, so no one plays it. I am under complete emotional control thank you, but I do not take kindly to assholes

and I said:

So many people are not thankful. Of course in this situation that can go both ways, both from you or from others.

And for the record, you are not in emotional control because if cursing people out is not emotionally out of control, then nothing is. Holding back is showing control, and really does take true emotional strength to do. You can't deny that. You don't need to use offensive language to let people know how you feel. It just isn't mature for one, and also displays lack of emotonal control, politeness and education.

Bottom line is, you should have bug fixed it before release, if you knew there were bugs. Did you playtest it? I will try it again tomorrow because I want to play it.

Quoted so he doesn't change it. Seriously.


General B, I am absolutely not taking that comment back, nor responding to your PM. I understand your role in tech support, and you started off very cordially, but then your criticism got harsher and harsher until you declared my mod unplayable, unfinished, and a beta even though a ton of people have already played it through no problem, and even after I made it it clear that I am NOT willing to do additional work on the mod while understanding exactly what the problems are. Yes, the mod is not polished to the degree of the legendary mods here, however I drove hard for beta testers and other kinds of support at various points throughout the last five years here and didn't get much help. As a result, I am done working on the mod, thats that. Maybe in some alternate universe I have the time and motivation to polish it and release it again, but the quantity of those alternate universes decreased significantly with each declaration of the mod as worthless as is. Maybe the mod isn't polished enough for you or Spoon, so i'm sorry the mod doesn't meet your quality standards. but don't come into my thread saying its unfit for everyone, when most people play through the mod just fine. I never asked for SCP to support my mod, so I am not making anyone else's job harder. Mr. E and -Norbert- pointed out and fixed technical flaws with my mod, which I am of course thankful for. This is my mod which conforms to my quality standards dictated by how much time I felt it appropriate to take out of my life and put into this mod. Its not BP quality, I understood that before you and high max felt it necessary to ruin my release thread. It was supposed to contain some satisfaction for me and others, releasing content to the community. Its now an unsalvagable nightmare. However, I don't believe other people who have less astronomical standards of quality should be deprived of the opportunity to discuss the content of the mod with me, so I am staying around for people who will still play my mod while somehow not being intimidated by four pages of how my mod sucks, which I'm willing to bet would be hardly anyone now. This also dashes the possibility of a Relentless 3, which I had already begun writing, since the chances of people being inspired enough by the initial campaign to form a mod team with me have dropped to null because of this ruined wreck of a thread.

So, Fury, I guess letting High Max fire a string of irrelevant personal insults against me in a release thread for my campaign is, in your words, "quite valid as part of mod discussion". I understand locking the thread, but not when THAT was the last post before it was locked, and said post was not deleted or edited, even after the thread was reopened. Well if unrelated personal criticism against me is "valid as part of mod discussion", then apparently I still have a severe misunderstanding of what a mod comprises of. As for the insults themselves, I am not going to respond to the because (1) they are off topic, maybe not by Fury's standards, but by mine, and (2) they are so off base and invalid that I am not going to honor them with a response. I'd leave now, but I have faith that the silent majority of HLP does not necessarily represent the views of you.

Now for actual content.

Okay, here's some non-technical stuff:

Spoiler:

The first thing I noticed was that Myrms can carry Harpoons. It made it easier I suppose, but it bugs me for some reason. I guess I just fall in the -never-intended-the-Myrm-to-get-Harpoons camp.

The first mission was fun. Maybe a little BoE-ish, but I actually enjoy wading through swarms of puny Shivan fighters. That fighter thing with loads of beam cannons looked awesome too.

But then the second mission... had way too much waiting (karma?). No fighting and not even any dialog. First I turned on time compression, then I wandered off to shoot asteroids. To top it all off, I got caught in the beam spam when the destroyers jumped in.

That's all I've played at the moment, but I plan to finish the campaign. Ironically, the long discussion about bugs and bug testing is the only thing that made me download this.

But don't get so hostile over this. People have been trying to tell you gently that your standards of bug-freeness are too low. As an engineer I can tell you that anything built/programmed/whatever needs some margin of safety built in.

Spoiler:

I gave myrms harpoons mainly because i tend to avoid hornets. In my experience, they never hit anything moving.

Second mission DOES have a lot of waiting but there was a bug that on some playthru's the the freighters take a lot longer to navigate the field and I coulden't find the source of the issue, so I let it be. I couldn't make a when-arrived function because sometimes the freighters don't even survive. In retrospect i should have used a when-arrived.or.when-destroyed function. It is a very long lull I admit, but it makes it all the more surprising when the Nebiros arrives. Getting caught in beamspam is a terrible way to end that mission i sympathize with you, but at least next time you know to use time compression. 

[Fury]

I have yet to see anyone insulting you in this topic, let alone High Max. Feel free to prove me otherwise in case I missed something.

[Snail]

I think constructive criticism devolves to insults once it becomes directed at the creator rather than at the campaign itself.

[Deka1184]

Spoiler tagged because this is all irrelevant to the topic.

Spoiler:

I have yet to see anyone insulting you in this topic, let alone High Max. Feel free to prove me otherwise in case I missed something.

Spoiler:

And for the record, you are not in emotional control because if cursing people out is not emotionally out of control, then nothing is. Holding back is showing control, and really does take true emotional strength to do. You can't deny that. You don't need to use offensive language to let people know how you feel. It just isn't mature for one, and also displays lack of emotonal control, politeness and education.

Bottom line is, you should have bug fixed it before release, if you knew there were bugs. Did you playtest it? I will try it again tomorrow because I want to play it.

Spoiler:

I think constructive criticism devolves to insults once it becomes directed at the creator rather than at the campaign itself.

Spoiler:

Snail is right. Also, what makes High Max's uncalled for commentary even more insulting is that he clearly did not even read the thread beforehand or at the very least skipped over most of it, as shown by his statements "Bottom line is, you should have bug fixed it before release, if you knew there were bugs. Did you playtest it?" If he honestly felt the need to say that to me, the least he could do is send a PM instead, not personally attack me in my own MOD RELEASE THREAD.

[Fury]

I'm sorry if you feel like those are personal insults directed towards you, while they clearly are not.

[The E]

Actually, what High Max said (in his typical, totally-oblivious-to-everything way), is insulting. As deka pointed out, he was not aware of the tools to use to test a mod; it wasn't that he wanted to release it this way, it's just that he didn't know there were errors in there.

[Deka1184]

After being KappaWing for 5 years, I have a new callsign now, but I don't mind if you still call me Kappa. =)

Why change your name? I can't say "KappaWing, this is Allied Command, please respond" on messanger anymore.

Anyway, anyone got any mirrors for this?

Does mediafire not work for some people? Regardless, I have created a mirror at filefront. Please check your first post.

I changed it just because I've changed it everywhere else on the 'net and I am OCD about having a consistent tag. It sometimes leads to cool situations where people recognize you from a totally opposite side of the internet. I have a friend who cannot keep a constant tag for more than 5 months much less 5 years, so compared to him I felt I was due for a change.  

EDIT: But of course I'll always still respond to Kappa.  

[captain-custard]

this seems to be aptly named

relentless !

[Qent]

It already looks like I'm not getting a highlight so I don't see why you need to bash my campaign further when it hasn't even ****ing crashed yet. Here is four ****ing pages and not a single post about the mod itself, just a bunch of technical bull****. I dont want to see another ****ing comment related to technical ANYTHING, if I do, I'm out of here. I'm done dealing with this ****, so you're just going to have to blow it out your ass.

High Max's comments could be construed as trolling... or he could have been trying to defuse the situation. I prefer to assume that people have good intentions. Reviewing High Max's other posts in this thread, he has generally been supportive and sympathetic, which also suggests the latter possibility.

You also seem to despise betas for some reason. Betas aren't bad. In fact, I try to use betas whenever it's reasonably safe to do so. Many betas are very stable, and some software is perpetually in beta (sometimes abandoned). It's more of an acknowledgment that there could be bugs and that you want people to give feedback on them (if any).

[ReeNoiP]

Deka1184, if you look around other release threads, you will notice that, for the most part, people give feedback depending on the quality of the mod. People report any bugs and errors and recommend ways to fix them, as was the case before this thread escalated.

From what I can gather, you have no intention of fixing the problems pointed out, and it seems you have simply released the campaign because you got fed up with working on it (sorry if this is not the case). People are not really used to this as most of those who take the time to make campaigns usually want a result people can appreciate.

Now, I have not played this campaign, but between the bug reports, and you own comment about the freighters in that one mission (couldn't fix the problem, so you left it in), I certainly don't feel compelled to either.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if you want to expect a positive response when releasing a campaign on a site dedicated to custom content in FS2, you should also make sure what you release is of decent quality at least. It doesn't have to be BP level, but it should at least be stable, playable and without any glaring errors.
In this case, it sounds as if a lot of trouble could have been avoided with a little testing.

[Deka1184]

Quent, (again, players, sorry for the irrelevance)

I do not have anything against betas, thats the most bizarre accusation I've ever heard. thats like saying I like windows but have something against glass. My point is that this is not a beta. This is a release. If general B actually worked on the mod, then he'd have a say in what exactly the status of the mod is. Also, clipping my statements out of context doesn't make your point any more valid.

I don't care if high max was trolling or not, his statements were unwarranted, inappropriate, and inflammatory and thats the bottom line. There is no way his statements could be construed as trying to diffuse the situation!

Now, I have not played this campaign, but between the bug reports, and you own comment about the freighters in that one mission (couldn't fix the problem, so you left it in), I certainly don't feel compelled to either.

Wow, another person too lazy to read the thread, just as i predicted. The bug reports are theoretical. People play through 3.6.10 just fine. Secondly, the freighter bug is really one of only one of a few major bugs in a twentysomething mission campaign. If thats not "decent" quality for you, then you can kindly not play my mod and gtfo this thread.

This mod is reasonably stable. This mod is certainly playable, and furthermore highly enjoyable. This mod did not have any glaring errors during my EXTENSIVE playtesting and the somewhat sketchy testing of my AWOL beta team. Do not be misled by this person's comments.

I released this mod because I felt it was finished. Upon releasing this, I wasnt even aware of the purpose of debug builds or mod.ini and stuff like that, so yes, ReeNoiP, you are wrong in your assessment.

Its people like you that cause other people not to download the mod and ruin an experience that they could have had. Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread.

Finally, I've edited a note into the initial post so hopefully more people aren't misled by this idiocy.

[MatthTheGeek]

Upon releasing this, I wasnt even aware of the purpose of debug builds or mod.ini and stuff like that

That doesn't seem physically possible

Oh, and wasn't that a triple post ? You should try the Modify button, it's great too

[General Battuta]

Easy there, fellow. You're blowing a gasket here.

I'll happily play your mod and give you constructive criticism on how to improve it. Would you like that?

You need to understand that you're receiving feedback in proportion to the quality of the mod. It wouldn't mean much if we all just told you it was a great mod.

Does that make sense?

I understand you're upset about the way this thread has gone, but you're getting honest responses here.

From this I can see:

I released this mod because I felt it was finished. Upon releasing this, I wasnt even aware of the purpose of debug builds or mod.ini and stuff like that

that you're a novice modder, and we absolutely don't want to drive people away. Take this as an opportunity to improve, rather than to quit in disgust.

One thing I'd suggest in the future is to compare your releases to other mods that have received some acclaim. Take a look at their missions in FRED, look at the setups of their folders and so on.

It's not your fault that you didn't do something you didn't know about, but we're here to help you, and the only way this can go wrong is if you don't accept that help.

[General Battuta]

And just to clarify, mate, the suggestion to call this a beta release was intended to help out.

I think the best thing you could do right now is just listen to incoming feedback from your players and learn what you can from it. Assuming that your mod is 'highly enjoyable' on its own is probably not the best plan.  

Don't mind High Max, either. He's got his own very special style, and you'll more or less just have to get used to it. Goodness knows it took me a few years.

Just by sticking with a project and releasing it you've proven you have a talent most modders don't, so good on you for that.

[Deka1184]

This is not the first mod I've released. The first mod I released was, in my opinion, of far less quality than this, yet it didn't draw nearly as much criticism. I don't understand why this correlation exists.

As I've stated before for reasons I've stated before I'm no longer interested in improving the mod. If someone else wants to improve it, thats fine, but I'm done. I'm not a novice modder, this is my 4th or 5th mod I don't quite remember which, yet it is by far my best. It was all up to code about two or three years ago, when the bulk of the work was done. I made the mistake of just thinking I could put some finishing touches on it and release it as if it were still 2007. The E and -Norbert- got it up to code. There are still a few problems with a few missions that I admit and acknowledge, but 95% of the mod is flawless but naturally people only care about the 5%. This thread should be 95% discussion about the mod, strategies, plot, etc and 5% technical stuff, but this ratio has been reversed because people like to blow a few glitches way out of proportion. I'll probably never release another mod, especially after this episode. If I do, however, I will certainly follow the technical notes I've learned in this thread, but thats where the constructive criticism should have stopped. Instead, it went way over the line, blew the criticism way out of proportion, and people read this **** and think its unplayable, dooming the mod itself to a disproportionate amount of backlash for its faults, ensuring that a bunch of people who would have otherwise enjoyed it just fine will never play it. Excuse me if I don't view that as positive.

You don't need to TELL me its a great mod, but RECOGNIZE its mostly a great mod. I've seen mods receive incredible praise that don't even use the Z axis, which IMO is a far greater sin than omitting directives. It has solid gameplay and a solid story. Its no Derelict or Blue Planet but I am just one person and certainly not particularly talented in this sort of thnig, as individuals such as BR and RA are.

The first three pages are alright, disproportionate, but alright, but then you crossed the line saying that the mod that I, as the creator, clearly have no say over whether my own ****ing mod is a release or a beta, and that some moderator should make sure that no one plays it. 90 percent of people play it fine, and as the creator of this mod, I say thats good enough and thats the final word. I don't need people like ReeNoiP telling me the quality level that I should be obligated to live up to. This isn't a crap mod like all these comments suggest, its 95% great, but there is not a single ****ing comment about that so far. It was not a suggestion that I call it a beta release, it was a suggestion that a moderator come and deem this a beta release, overriding my own release. There is a big difference there.

I suspect there are plenty of people who played through it seamlessly and enjoyed it greatly, but are not bothering to post, or are waiting to enjoy it and haven't gotten around to playing it yet. I hope they don't see this **** and are misled into thinking its fatally flawed.

I stated clearly several times that I am not doing any more work on this mod. Further tearing the mod apart past that point is just useless bashing of it, especially since every single ****ing bug detected so far must have been mentioned at least five times.

[General Battuta]

Right, mate, just to clear something up:

The technical problems described here would have been just as fatal in 2007 as they are today. The mod was never quite all there technically.

Now, setting the tech problems aside, the first few missions tell me that this mod is all right, but that you've got a lot of learning to do. The missions are getting there, but still not up to par.

[Deka1184]

Right, mate, just to clear something up:

The technical problems described here would have been just as fatal in 2007 as they are today. The mod was never quite all there technically.

Now, setting the tech problems aside, the first few missions tell me that this mod is all right, but that you've got a lot of learning to do. The missions are getting there, but still not up to par.

Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps a four year development timeline would indicate that the missions improve in quality as you progress through the campaign? Even some of the early missions, "First Stike", for example, I contend to be flawless work.

[General Battuta]

Also, you're ignoring the nice things I said about you.  

Right, mate, just to clear something up:

The technical problems described here would have been just as fatal in 2007 as they are today. The mod was never quite all there technically.

Now, setting the tech problems aside, the first few missions tell me that this mod is all right, but that you've got a lot of learning to do. The missions are getting there, but still not up to par.

Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps a four year development timeline would indicate that the missions improve in quality as you progress through the campaign? Even some of the early missions, "First Stike", for example, I contend to be flawless work.

I'll see as I progress, but you should take time to polish up your early missions. Good first impression!

[Scotty]

Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps a four year development timeline would indicate that the missions improve in quality as you progress through the campaign? Even some of the early missions, "First Stike", for example, I contend to be flawless work.

Um, I hate to sound like a jerk, but that's really more the realm of people who play and review the mission to say.  Mission designers are inherently biased (either for or against) missions they themselves create.