[Rick James]

Hey, out of curiosity, are we going to see more of the Vishnans or the Shivans? I was rather interested in the dynamic between the two species.

What council were the two species on? Who are the Brahmans?

Oh, and a fun tidbit: brahmin are two-headed cattle in the "Fallout" series.

[blowfish]

So then I take it the UEF likes launching strike craft (fighters and bombers) off of installations and/or planetary bases, since for a period they didn't use destroyers and heavier fighters and bombers can't even fit in the Karuna's fighter bay (I've tested this).

[Snail]

What council were the two species on? Who are the Brahmans?

I see you haven't been doing much Hindu religion lately, eh?

Well, in reality, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are known collectively as the three divine aspects of God (called Trimurti), the triumvirate of the gods, in other words, the Creator (Brahma) - the Destroyer (Shiva) - and the Preserver (Vishnu). The Brahmans supposedly created subspace and the universe early on in FreeSpace history.

I suspect the Brahmans (the Creators) were killed off or disappeared or something a while ago, so the Shivans and Vishnans are looking for a replacement for the Creators on the council. But the Shivans got a bit pissed at the Terrans and Vasudans and decided to go on a killing spree, thus we see that dialog between the SSJ Dante and the Vishnan ultraevilgiantshipwhichiforgeththenameof. After the Shivans get their asses handed to them I suspect they got kicked off the Trimurti too, but I dunno.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

...the Vishnan ultraevilgiantshipwhichiforgeththenameof.

I think it's called the Preserver.

[Snail]

Hmm... Random question. Are the Vishnans and Shivans inter-dimensional? (probably asked before, but whatever)

[Darius]

So then I take it the UEF likes launching strike craft (fighters and bombers) off of installations and/or planetary bases, since for a period they didn't use destroyers and heavier fighters and bombers can't even fit in the Karuna's fighter bay (I've tested this).

Well bombers wouldn't have been used as often in peacetime, so they probably would have been based on planets or installations, but the Durga/Saracen can definitely fit in the Karuna's launch bay. Probably have room for only one or two, but it is possible...

Hmm... Random question. Are the Vishnans and Shivans inter-dimensional? (probably asked before, but whatever)

Interdimensional as in they exist in multiple dimensions? Yes.

Interdimensional as in they exist in multiple dimensions simultaneously? No. Well, at least the Shivans don't. What happens to the Shivans/Vishnans in one universe may not necessarily happen in another.

[Snail]

So the Shivans do not coordinate their movements over multiple dimensions? Damn.

[Romanmolf]

''The Shivans are The Great Destroyers but they're also The Great Preservers''

Conclusion:

- The Shivans were protecting ALL races from each other and ''destroyed'' only if necessary; until the Ancients...

- The Ancients somehow developed subspace drive (either from the Shivans or by themselves) long before any other race did and exploited that; they ''destroyed'' a lot and the Shivans had to wipe out their homeworld. They didn't exterminate them, they just gave them a lesson and they learned it.

- 8,000 years later, The Shivans detect subspace drive similar to the one used by the Ancients and, without question or warning, they attack. They were defeated, but 32 years later, they try it again.

- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.


The story goes on, because after Blue Planet, the Shivans are surely planing their revenge. 

[Jeff Vader]

- The Ancients somehow developed subspace drive (either from the Shivans or by themselves)

It was quite clearly stated in one of the Ancient cutscenes that the Ancients encountered the Shivans after discovering subspace. And subtly hinted that the Shivans arrived because the Ancients stumbled upon subspace.

They didn't exterminate them, they just gave them a lesson and they learned it.

At least I got the impression that the Shivans specifically exterminated the Ancients. Most likely the majority of the Ancients retreated to their homeworld (where or during which they developed the means to destroy the Lucifer) and logically the Shivans followed them. And probably destroyed the homeworld. Since the Ancients were there, waiting for the inevitable destruction.

[Colonol Dekker]

We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)

So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed

[Snail]

- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.

Bad theory, bad.

We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)

So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed

Actually it was a random planet in Altair (Altair IV I think) but I don't believe that it was their homeworld. Also this planet was destroyed by Shivan weaponry apparently, so this planet was also probably V-Primed.

[Colonol Dekker]

Who's to say it's not the remains of their H-world after it was ravaged.

Who's to to say it's not. They're all dead, we're not, let's not worry about it:)

[Jeff Vader]

We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)

So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed

Well, "destroyed" as in "no-one-or-nothing-is-going-to-****ing-live-there-for-a-****ing-long-time". Not necessarily blown to bits. The definition of destroyed is a bit wide, at least for me. Pardon for not being clear enough.

[Rick James]

There is indeed a difference between going Death Star on a planet and reducing it to a few free-floating chunks of rock and doing what the Lucifer did to Vasuda Prime with it superspecialawesomeomgwtfbbqfishsticks long range planetary bombardment cannon.

At least I got the impression that the Shivans specifically exterminated the Ancients. Most likely the majority of the Ancients retreated to their homeworld (where or during which they developed the means to destroy the Lucifer) and logically the Shivans followed them. And probably destroyed the homeworld. Since the Ancients were there, waiting for the inevitable destruction.

This would seem to be supported by the Ancient monologues:

And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.

We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.

There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.

We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.

When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us.

[Romanmolf]

- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.

Bad theory, bad.

What about my quote?

If the Shivans were the ''Preservers'' until the Great War (which is proved by the last movie of FS1) what the **** were the Vishnans doing at the time?

[Droid803]

Just because its speculated by a character in-universe, it doesn't mean its true that the Shivans were acting as the great preservers.
IMO, sticking to BP canon, I'd say they were solely acting as the Great Destroyers, just killing whatever decides to show its face.

[Snail]

Just because its speculated by a character in-universe, it doesn't mean its true that the Shivans were acting as the great preservers.

Well IMO it would be a piece of ****ing ****tery for to give you false information at the end of the game. Sure, other games have done it but if they just say "Oh, he didn't know WTF he was talking about at the time." is nothing more than an excuse to retcon all the events of FS1.

What about my quote?

About your entire theory that the Vishnans were created as the preservers after the Shivans. Me no likey. I mean, the Shivans and the Vishnans address each other on equal terms... And it just doesn't seem right to me. It seems weird and freaky.

I think the Vishnans at the time of FS1 and FS2 were indecisive in their course of action. Like, they didn't know whether or not to intervene. I don't think they were just created at the time. Especially since they're exactly the same in power as their counterparts. And it completely ruins the duality between the two species if one was created a while after the other.

[Droid803]

ok, assuming BP canon here, the character at the end of FS1 knows nothing about the Vishnans. They've only ever seen the Shivans. I would speculate too that they had some other reason rather than "Oh, hai thar, I kill you all." Its rationalization.

Also, they (the Shivans) may have preformed a similar function in preserving through destruction, but it was not their 'role'.

[Solatar]

I think he was just saying 'if the Shivans hadn't come, the Vasudans and Terrans would have utterly destroyed both their civilizations. Now that we were both attacked, we were forced to adapt and stop fighting each other. In this way they actually preserved us...despite wrecking everything. Funny how that goes, huh?"

I never got the impression it went much deeper than that. Or that the Shivan's intentionally did anything to preserve anything. The player monologue is just trying to find the silver lining in the big black insect like cloud.

[Dark Hunter]

The overall message I got from the end-FS1 monologue was: "If the Shivans hadn't been around, other races would have annihilated us long ago. By annihilating all races with the ability to annihilate races, the Shivans preserve new and developing societies. And their attack also brought about peace between us and the Vasudans." (Like Solatar said.)

Personally, I think that while all of that may be true, I don't believe the Shivans intentionally leave younger species alone. As the Ancients said: "They are not a terrestrial species." I think they just ignore planets unless that planet is a major population center for whomever they happen to be annihilating at the moment. Other species are left alone by virtue of not being spacefaring... or at least, not having enough civilization to be noticed by the Shivans.

(Back on-topic)
Of course, Blue Planet has them being a bit more selective in which races they annihilate. Implying that their "preserve through annihilation" modus operandi is quite deliberate. Although I did find it interesting that the Shivans compared us to themselves. "They are like us. They destroy." Which begs the question: if these "destructive" races are perceived as a threat to "potential" races... how in the world did the Shivans get elected to the Great Council?

(I got to use the word "annihilate" 6 times in one post. )