Author Topic: Blue Planet Plot  (Read 14652 times)

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Offline Commander Zane

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It's not like I'm asking for the campaign to be remade or anything (although...I mean you could essentially keep the first several missions the same...well whatever)
If you don't like it, no one is stopping you from remaking the last missions into blow-things-up parades and being happy with it.

Actually, if emphasis on storytelling isn't your thing, there's always Second Great War Part 2. That has a horrible story, but you don't really need to concern yourself with it since it is mostly handled during briefings and debriefings, whereas during missions you just have to blow things up on a ridiculous scale.
But he doesn't want time compression in his FreeSpace. First mission starts off with an escort mission with a Corvette some 20 klicks from a jump node and enemy fighters jumping in another 20 klicks away.

Horrible story is a bit of an understatement here... :wtf:
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:34:29 am by Commander Zane »

 

Offline Darius

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I don't think noodlezombie's griping about the fact that BP has a story, though...it's mainly the plot execution and themes running through it that he didn't either like or agree with: that's fine. There's always room for improvement when one's starting to FRED for the first time, and I certainly didn't expect to please everybody with it :)

I'm also not going to say that his view that Sync/Transcend did this kind of story better than BP is rubbish (indeed it was Ransom's storytelling execution that inspired me). It's just the way he said it that came across as disrespectful (and people here should know my stance on basic human respect after playing the campaign :D )

So while I appreciate everyone's support :D we shouldn't slam him for not liking BP. Only the way he put it across.

 
Quote
I want to preface this by saying that I really liked Blue Planet. It has some exceptional missions (my favorite by far is Forced Entry. That one is frakking brilliant). And I especially love the new GTVA ships, they look great and the campaign does a very good job of conveying just how superior they are to the Shivan tech, while still not being invincible.

That being said, the plot was just...stupid. Or rather, it starts off promising. Expeditionary Force back to Sol, state of the art fleet. Awesome. Something happens in transit and you end up in an alternate universe where the Shivans won. Hey, that's fine, it's a bit out of the norm for FreeSpace, but I can still get with it.

Spend a few missions blowing up Shivans with your hilariously superior tech, make contact with a lone ship carrying the last survivors of the human race in this universe, all is well.

And then, out of NOWHERE, comes this 'chosen one' and 'extra dimensional aliens' nonsense. What the hell is this crap? Not only is it retarded and has no place in a fleet action based, military space sim (I will make an exception for the Sync/Transcend campaigns, since they are somewhat similar but do it far, far better than Blue Planet does), but it's not like the plot really needed it.

Why couldn't the story just have been about running through Shivan blockades to rejoin the rest of the GTVA battlegroup, and then clearing a path back to the node, a couple missions where you hold off Shivans while the scientists in the fleet work out how to reproduce the energy fluctuations to get you back to your universe, then an final epic gauntlet mission where the fleet makes a mad dash for the node? That would have been fine, I would have been more than happy with something like that.

And don't get me started on the so called 'character focus'. Not once during the entire campaign did I give a crap about Alpha 1, his Dad, or my wingmen. Awkward in-mission dialog and frankly badly written journal entries =/= good character development.

And then it gets into all this spiritualist garbage. When I got to the part where I'm presented with 5 pages of a speech on the final resting place of the soul I literally, physically facepalmed. Why is this stuff in my FreeSpace campaign? And what about the part where the aliens essentially tell you you're the long foretold chosen one? I couldn't even facepalm, I just ಠ_ಠ for about 5 minutes.

I don't wish to sound overly harsh, but I feel someone has to come forward and say these things. The basic premise of the story was solid, and the missions were great. But the story about a 3rd of the way through just went to hell. It's not like I'm asking for the campaign to be remade or anything (although...I mean you could essentially keep the first several missions the same...well whatever) but please, please don't do this same crap with War in Heaven.

Very well good sir! Here is your money back...

Its ok to criticize but the furiosity of your statements resembles that of an angry customer who just payed 50 bucks for say Mirrors Edge(I heard the story is bad there). You didn't pay a dime to enjoy this campaign and its creator sacrificed his time in exchange for nothing but gratitude. Loosen your tone and give Darius some advice on how to improve his writing/storytelling(which IMHO can always be improved) instead of making statements with little or no arguments to support them.

I think that the main problem with Age of Aquarius' storyline was the fact that it turned out very compressed in the short(not in comparison to other campaigns but to the proportion of the storyline) campaign length. The theme changes could be a bit more fluent. Suddenly for three mission your a Vishnan then boom you're back to your body again then, wham Shivan and Vishnians are fighting, slam the expedition was meant to conquer Sol by force etc. Some of the major plot elements are compressed into just one mission. It would be hard to otherwise fit all the ideas into one reasonable sized campaign.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Yeah, guys, ease off. Now we're practically the ones flaming him.

 

Offline Mobius

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I liked the Vishnans just because I liked seeing the new ships and weapons and a new race in general

I'm afraid that people who know INFR1 didn't experience that feeling.
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Offline Narvi

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I don't think noodlezombie's griping about the fact that BP has a story, though...it's mainly the plot execution and themes running through it that he didn't either like or agree with: that's fine. There's always room for improvement when one's starting to FRED for the first time, and I certainly didn't expect to please everybody with it :)

I'm also not going to say that his view that Sync/Transcend did this kind of story better than BP is rubbish (indeed it was Ransom's storytelling execution that inspired me). It's just the way he said it that came across as disrespectful (and people here should know my stance on basic human respect after playing the campaign :D )

So while I appreciate everyone's support :D we shouldn't slam him for not liking BP. Only the way he put it across.

Since this appears to be the 'criticize Blue Planet' thread, I might as well contribute.

I agree with a few of his points. The whole 'chosen one' thing and the 'timeless superalien' thing could really have done with some more foreshadowing. The implementation and exposition were just a wee bit clunky.

It's the whole 'show don't tell' rule of writing; a Vishnan ship is really just a superfighter. There's not much gameplay or stylistic difference in your piloting, besides the fact that you're flying a superfighter. That's one thing that could be improved, though I really like the Vishnan missions. I understand the Vishnans took Bei because of his tactical knowledge, but it still feels too GTVA-ey, though that might be deliberate, as I suppose that Bei would identify tactics that way even as a Vishnan fighter.

(May I suggest your try The Babylon Project's Dark Children campaign? You fly a Shadow fighter in that one, and it's very nice and alien. Your wingmates are your 'brothers' (they have these adorable cute little voices...) and because you're a living, arrogant little superfighter, the enemy wings eventually get designated as 'Pitiful', 'Weak', 'Victims' and so on. Flying the fighter is also a different experience; you aren't completely invincible, and you can be shot down if you're not careful. It's a very atmospheric campaign.)

Also I don't think the whole 'benevolent superalien' thing really fits with the Freespace universe either, but that's just me. Maybe Star Trek, or B5, but not really Freespace.

I also think it cheapens the motivations of the Shivans a bit to have them as overzealous members of some superalien council. At the end of the campaign the Vishnans were all 'you're out of the council dudes' and basically telling them to go to bed without their supper. Their inscrutability and awe-inspiring nature is lost because they have just been told to leave and they did so without complaint.

Oh, and the whole "conquer Earth" thing makes Command out to be a bunch of gibbering morons. They sent in an invasion fleet which was full of Earth fanboys. Then they don't brief the fleet on the fact that they are an invasion fleet. Clever, Command. I'm sure there won't be mass defection at all.

Also, High Command's motivations are very strange. They have to know that public opinion will turn against them if they go to war with the extremely romanticized human homeworld. Why would they attempt gunboat diplomacy without even attempting peaceful contact first?

In fact, a war between the two doesn't really make much sense. The GTVA have slightly superior ships and outnumber Earth considerably. Any war would not be profitable for either side.

The GTVA doesn't really need Earth besides as a symbol, and any war against Earth would likely have no public support because of Earth's massive romanticization by the Lost Generation; morale on the GTVA side would not be high whenever they fight Earth forces. I suppose the GTVA could go for the propaganda route and establish themselves as 'liberators' against 'the new tyrants of the human homeworld', but unless they lie about the details of first contact, not many people are going to believe them.

Earth itself is obviously self-sufficient, and in any case, they shouldn't be capable of maintaining hostilities with an entity the size of the GTVA for any long period of time. The weight of numbers would just be against them.

(I originally figured the task force was just to serve as a statement of force, and as a peacekeeping force in case Earth was less peaceful than expected. I figured it also contained diplomatic personnel to bring the new Earth government up to speed with recent history. I was not expecting their policy to be "JOIN US OR WE WILL SHOOT YOU".)

I also don't like your use of cutscenes. Cutscenes aren't Freespacey! You're in the cockpit, and there you stay. It makes sense occasionally, like the Vishnan/Shivan discussion at the end, but there's really no need to make the first meeting with the Sanctuary's pilots into a cutscene. Nor during the destruction of the Ravana during the first Knossos mission. Though, thinking about it, I think I understand the reasons for the cutscene in that last case; you probably didn't want to have the player wait for the Orestes to jump through the Knossos, and so you just ended the mission after the Ravana was destroyed.

That's not to say that I didn't like Blue Planet. To praise: The sound design and mission structure were both exceedingly well done. You also managed to convey a story without using too many 'fly and listen to your wingmen talk' missions, unlike say, Sync or Transcend. You've hit a good balance between gameplay and story. Well done!

 

Offline Mobius

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Quite frankly, many comments I read here made me sick. This is a classic situation...a group of individuals pretends to have the right to flame someone else for...what? "The greater good"? This is very bad, IMO.

I'm quite deluded by the comments of certain members, I thought they were slightly better. Noodlezombie didn't claim to dislike BP simply because all he wants is to blow stuff up without any text - the fact that he played, enjoyed and cited campaigns like Transcend and Sync is a valid proof. All he said is that he didn't like certain choices in terms of plotline development, and I have to agree. Yet still, me and Noodblezombie don't think BP's FREDding is bad.

De gustibus non disputandum est, alright, but we have to cite the facts here. People who deal with games based on "chosen" characters might not necessarily like BP's storyline while others might find it original and interesting. Also, certain choices are dabatable if accurately analyzed by people who have a very good knowledge of the FreeSpace Universe - I didn't like that Council matter involving the Shivans, just to say an example. Also, there should have been things to back up Command's choice of invading Sol: that choice wasn't obvious and a good way to justify it would have been nice(something like highly ranked officers' opinions about Sol forcing the fleet to come out with that decision, possibly for "self defense" and/or "safety reasons").

Also, I'm sick of people accusing Second Great War Part II even if they don't have the skills to create something better than it in FRED.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 12:32:52 pm by Mobius »
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Offline General Battuta

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Darius already addressed that point, Mobius. He has some valid criticisms and we recognize them.

And I do hope the Shivans get a bit of their menace back. They need some new ships and new motivation.

I think the invasion of Sol was perfectly plausible, but I'm sure the reasoning will be explored more during WiH.

Hasn't it occurred to anyone that maybe GTVA High Command is aware of the religious government that's taken over Sol and considers it dangerous?

 

Offline Mobius

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I think the invasion of Sol was perfectly plausible, but I'm sure the reasoning will be explored more during WiH.

No doubt we'll find out more in WiH but, at the moment, what we have isn't enough to justify that choice. The UEF is not like the EA.

Hasn't it occurred to anyone that maybe GTVA High Command is aware of the religious government that's taken over Sol and considers it dangerous?

How?

We all know that, in theory, it'd be possible to communicate to and from Sol thanks to a close system, Alpha Centauri...but in terms of FS Universe we don't know if it'd be a good choice to give it for sure.
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Offline General Battuta

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I think the invasion of Sol was perfectly plausible, but I'm sure the reasoning will be explored more during WiH.

No doubt we'll find out more in WiH but, at the moment, what we have isn't enough to justify that choice. The UEF is not like the EA.

It might very well be more dangerous. The EA government is human. GTVA High Command may consider the Elders to be under alien influence, or they may be motivated by fear of Earth religion spreading throughout GTVA space and damaging their ability to react to another Shivan incursion.

 

Offline Mobius

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How do they know about the Elders?

PS
I've edited my previous post.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Quote
IMO, he's akin to Picasso with mouse and keyboard in terms of campaign writing and FRED-ing.
Now there is no need to get insulting  :P
Did I mention I hate most modern art?

Anyway back to topic.

I wouldn't argue about the "ending" just yet. It is pretty much the same as with many TV series last episodes of a particular season made into a cliffhanger.
Give the audiance an unexpected massive surprise/shock and keep it mostly unexplained to keep the audiance hooked and coming back for the next season, were it is then resolved.

And I'm quite surprised that you liked Transcend/Synch but dislike BP. For me it's the other way round. I found one of those two nice, but not to my taste and the other one going straight over the top on the "weird-o-meter". But since it's a while since I played them, I don't remember which one was which  :o
BP on the other hand I really like a lot. Of course it has it's issues, but BP has fewer of those than many celebrated commercial products in my opinion.

As for Shiva. We don't know how he/she/it? reacted to the banishment. She just went away for that moment, hardly surprising since the Vishnan ship was clearly superoir to the Shivan one. Maybe they just regrouped to launch a war against the Vishnans and their council, not accepting the banishment at all...
Maybe they rethink their position and strife to atone for their crimes....
Maybe they really accept the banishment and turn into nomads that travel aimlessly around a galaxy they emptied of life in the name of the greater good....
Maybe they send their lawyers to sue the Vishnan, arguing that the Vishnans can't make such a decision on their own, without first consulting the rest of the council.... (Okay, the lawyer part was a joke, but the part about the Vishnans making the decision without consulting the council is quite valid I think.)
Maybe, maybe, maybe.... just too many possibilities and no answers.

So we are back at "wait for more info" I guess.


As for the GTVA knowing about details of the Solar system:
Unless it escaped my attention, it was never mentioned how long the subspace node was re-established before the force was send through. Maybe they send some stealth fighters in first to see what was going on.
And it is rather likely that the node needed some time to stabilise enough to send capitol ships through. Maybe they were able to receive communications from Sol before the node was entirely stable or even establish communicated with the earth government.
Remember the Earther ship that was destroyed by the Orestes didn't seem to be particularly surprised to see other Human ships come through a suposedly destroyed jumpnode and they also seemed rather unfriendly and guarded.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 02:52:10 pm by -Norbert- »

 
WiH obviously not being out yet I can't really make any real judgment on the whole GTVA vs Earth thing, but from what little we know of it right now it just doesn't seem natural. Honestly, to me, as of right now, it all seems like simply a contrivance to get Alpha 1 on the side of Earth and to portray a Sol vs GTVA war from the pov of the Earth forces. Which is fine, it will provide a unique perspective on things.

But looking at it as a story within the FreeSpace universe it just doesn't work. Everything we've seen about it indicates that the GTVA is a fundamentally benevolent organization. Misguided and arrogant at times perhaps (the Shivans can't POSSIBLY defeat our new technology! ahahahahahah-wait what? 100 Juggernauts you say? ohshi-) but it's not evil by any stretch of the imagination. They would never, ever, start an unprovoked war, especially against something as near to mythical status as Earth.

You could argue that maybe it's a few bad Generals/Admirals/Politicians pulling the strings to start a war, but the last time I checked the GTVA was a democracy. And especially with a project as big and important as reestablishing contact with Earth, there's just no way a few bad apples could get away with something like this.

Again, I'll withhold final judgment until the campaign is out and I've played it, but it just doesn't seem right...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 03:56:27 pm by noodlezombie »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Is it actually a democracy? We know there's a General Assembly and a Security Council, and presumably this would fall under the purvey of the Security Council, which is presumably staffed (judging off the UN) by the most influential big name powers.

We know that relations between the Terrans and Vasudans have cooled off as the Terrans grew more and more obsessed with returning to Earth (while, presumably, the Vasudans continued to prosper and flourish.) The Terrans may be facing an economic collapse and major rifts within their own society.

Historically, large organizations have tremendous inertia. They do desperate things in an effort to perpetuate their own existence when they are about to become obsolete. There are large reams of political science written on this topic (though Rian is more an expert on it than I am.)

I think it thoroughly possible that the GTVA (or the Terran elements thereof) is simply seeking to bring Earth in line with a rapid demonstration of military force in order to neutralize an uncertain element and safeguard its own continued existence.

That said, from the level of a fighter pilot, no, it doesn't make much sense. But large organizations, historically, do very stupid and very risky things. And they do these things very consistently and very often.

It's easy for us to say 'makes no sense!' We say the same thing about, say, villains in stories randomly executing their underlings. But, in fact, historical tyrants very frequently did just that. These things seem cliche and difficult to believe but they're actually quite veracious.

So, knowing history -- I'm not too surprised.

(All that said, I'd love to see the issue explored further during WiH, at least in the techroom.)

 

Offline Mobius

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As for the GTVA knowing about details of the Solar system:
Unless it escaped my attention, it was never mentioned how long the subspace node was re-established before the force was send through. Maybe they send some stealth fighters in first to see what was going on.
And it is rather likely that the node needed some time to stabilise enough to send capitol ships through. Maybe they were able to receive communications from Sol before the node was entirely stable or even establish communicated with the earth government.
Remember the Earther ship that was destroyed by the Orestes didn't seem to be particularly surprised to see other Human ships come through a suposedly destroyed jumpnode and they also seemed rather unfriendly and guarded.

Those are pure assumptions.

You could argue that maybe it's a few bad Generals/Admirals/Politicians pulling the strings to start a war, but the last time I checked the GTVA was a democracy. And especially with a project as big and important as reestablishing contact with Earth, there's just no way a few bad apples could get away with something like this.

You could still use some sort of propaganda to manipulate everyone else's opinion. In FS2's Intelligence entries reported that Sol was suspected to fall in a status of total anarchy which is, by definition, dangerous. In any case, the GTVA should have analyzed the situation before even thinking to send an invasion fleet.

Maybe they had a wars for profits in mind, who knows...
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Offline General Battuta

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It's not a pure assumption, Mobius -- the campaign explicitly says that a number of drones had been sent through previously.

These drones had probably been eavesdropping on UEF transmissions for some time. That's why I think the GTVA may have known about the Elders and the UEF spiritual state.

The situation was probably analyzed quite thoroughly before the battle group was deployed.

 

Offline Mobius

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The drones analyzed Sol's political status?
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Offline Jeff Vader

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As it was said, the drones probably eavesdropped on UEF transmissions, after which some highly educated GTVA analysts counted 1 + 1. Not directly stated in the campaign, but easy to deduce.
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline Mobius

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No, it isn't that logical. Listening to a few transmissions is not the best way to learn everything.

Random transmissions tell nothing about the basics, the few things everyone out there knows....and even if they did you need many, many transmissions to be sure of anything.
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Offline General Battuta

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So how do you know they didn't gather many, many transmissions and relay them back to the GTVA?

That's probably exactly what they did.