[MatthTheGeek]

Just collapse the node while Steele is taking holidays on a sunny beach in Beta Aquilae.

[crizza]

Crouching in the dirt in front of the zods to get them into the war...

[LordPomposity]

Just collapse the node while Steele is taking holidays on a sunny beach in Beta Aquilae.

WiH R2 opens with a "The Intervention" style mention in which LaPorte, flying a captured GTVA fighter, selects from a series of dialog options in an attempt to convince Steele that he needs a vacation.

[Scotty]

If the Tevs stranded in Sol don't get into any engagement, they're not too much trouble for the UEF, right ?

Major fleet engagements on a scale not seen in the entire war.  Just one battlegroup fought a running engagement through more space with less supplies on two different fronts in four different systems against nearly a dozen destroyer sized vessels and Juggernaut, were victorious, and retained a great enough combat effectiveness to completely gut two Karunas and force off three more despite the wholesale defection of nearly 20% of their strength, and you're going try and run a parallel to that?  I don't think so.

Three or four battlegroups in Sol, knowing that they've been cut off from resupply and backed into a corner, ESPECIALLY if they've got Steele with them would probably end the war quicker than if they had free supply lines.  If every second brings you closer to defeat, snatch victory more quickly.

[LordPomposity]

To be fair, the 14th would have almost certainly been destroyed on three separate occasions* if it weren't for the intervention of the Vishnans , but by and large your point stands.

Also, don't forget that the UEF are only a few months away from a logistical collapse, themselves.

*Well, two, really. Seeing as I had neutralized both Ravanas as effective combatants and was getting to work on the Demon by the time the Vishnans even showed up to 'save' the Temeraire, I'm not sure why everyone was going all OH MY GOD WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE IT HAS BEEN AN HONOR LET US MAKE A VALIANT LAST STAND that particular time.

[NGTM-1R]

Without supplies, they won't last long. The UEF just have to hold their ground until the Tev ships fall apart. You can expect a fair amount of surrendering too if they realize they're stranded on Sol for good.

Take away their options and they will at least make a first attempt to end the fight at stroke.

You want them to jump to high orbit and open up on major cities on Earth? 'cuz they will do it if you leave them no other choices.

[MatthTheGeek]

Right. And what then ? They've murdered millions, and their ships still fall apart. If they have any ships left after the UEF counterstrike. That's not exactly winning a war.

[NGTM-1R]

Right. And what then ? They've murdered millions, and their ships still fall apart. If they have any ships left after the UEF counterstrike. That's not exactly winning a war.

So everybody loses scans as a win for someone to you?

[MatthTheGeek]

Nope. But it definitely doesn't sound like the GTVA wins. Which is why I think the GTVA wouldn't do it. Especially Steele, he's smarter than that. He wouldn't sacrifice his men and lifes of innocents for a war he'd have already lost. Real geniuses know when they have lost.

[headdie]

Right. And what then ? They've murdered millions, and their ships still fall apart. If they have any ships left after the UEF counterstrike. That's not exactly winning a war.

So everybody loses scans as a win for someone to you?

I understand the preservation of Earth as a industrial hub is a goal of the GTVA? in that case the stranded GTVA forces double loose, firstly they die or are captured and then second when the GTVA re-establishes the node and re-enter to find Earth is rebuilding its main regions and find that it was the fault of their own forces those forces are then disgraced in the eyes of their own goverment and people.

Most likely outcome is that smaller ships and units will suffer heavily from defections/surrender from loss of moral, the larger crews will attempt to secure themselves or play hide and seek with the UEF hoping to hinder UEF attempts to rebuild their fleet until either contact with the GTVA is re-established or the UEF trap and destroy or force a surrender on the remaining taskforce, an outcome that will be force when their critical supplies run out.

[LordPomposity]

Right. And what then ? They've murdered millions, and their ships still fall apart. If they have any ships left after the UEF counterstrike. That's not exactly winning a war.

They don't need to actually do it; they just need to convince the UEF that they will do it in the absence of an immediate surrender. Perhaps start with one or two cities to prove that they're serious.

That said, I'm not sure the order would be followed if it were given. Killing civilians who are either working in positions related to the war effort or who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is one thing, but massacring billions of innocents to get the Elders' attention likely goes beyond what most GTVA soldiers have the stomach for.

I don't think you'd be likely to see defections solely as a result of the GTVA forces in Sol being cut off, but add state terrorism (because that's what killing civilians solely to obtain political concessions is) as an official policy and you'd start to risk it.

[Drogoth]

No one seems to have factored in the fact that this 'collapse the node plan' would be an all in strat by the UEF, and their fleet would likely be decimated, while many of the GTVA ships would still be in fighting form as they weren't just going gung ho for the node bleeding ships and lives.

As such, they could likely pursue decisive military victory WITHOUT having to nuke cities, and if anyone could push that win, Steele could. Earth builts its own gate now that the GTVA is in charge (if only with Steele as a proxy), GTVA victory.

The loss of life by this all in strat by the UEF would also likely be condemned by the Terran populace if all it did was hand Steele victory and kill a bunch of people, which would probably make it easier for Steele to take charge after victory

[QuakeIV]

Theres probably a way to get a single nuke through the node without getting almost the entire fleet killed.

[LordPomposity]

A single nuke would also likely lack the power to collapse the node.

[QuakeIV]

The node being usable is irrelevant, all you have to do is come out of subspace, destroy the gate, and ruin the GTVA's will to fight.

If a single Orion can generate that kind of morale effect I think its safe to assume the loss of the gate would be a lot worse.

[headdie]

The node being usable is irrelevant, all you have to do is come out of subspace, destroy the gate, and ruin the GTVA's will to fight.

If a single Orion can generate that kind of morale effect I think its safe to assume the loss of the gate would be a lot worse.

I cant find it but it was mentioned earlier in the thread that it might not be that simple with the gate maintaining the node and you would probably have to take that out of commission as well to achieve a meaningful disruption to GTVA transit

[MatthTheGeek]

Meaningful disruption of transit isn't the goal there. Breaking the Tev morale is. Remember they spent 18 years and a good part of their resources building that gate.

[Drogoth]

Except a node assault on fortification IN sol, and then transit to DS, and sustaining long enough to destroy the gate would be devastating to UEF morale to, because of the massive losses. What if losses are so bad, that the GTVA public is enraged at the loss of the gate, but know that they can go for the throat and win because of the devastation to the UEF. We're talking assaults of two major fleet locations, with the atreus and Steele's other assets around Jupiter to shove a few missiles up the UEF's ass for good measure, or wait for them on the other side of the DS node on their return journey.

[Hellstryker]

Not sure I understand this bit about massive losses. Sneaking an already defected ship through may be a bad idea, yes. But you could just pack a Karuna with comet crackers and crew it minimally with volunteers who claim they want to join the Tev side of things, get them through the node and have it go boom while it's coming out on the Delta Serp side as Headdie said.

They could even use a Tev PoW to do the talking. They have Al Fadil, right?

[QuakeIV]

In an attempt to avoid the nitpicking, the idea here is that a frontal assault isn't the only option.