Author Topic: Janus revisited  (Read 20245 times)

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Offline terran_emperor

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The way i see it "revisited Janus" means our update to the Capaign. The Janus is a Normal Nova dreadnought. Nova-X is a different ship.

But i disagree on the Nova-X being shadow skinned. EA had no shadow tech till the Syria Planum dig AFTER the war.
I think we should have a model of "Rotating Section" Nova-X. That way we have options for the Nova-X. If nothing else, once i learn blender, I'll use it in an "EA Eras ship pack".
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TRUE SHIVAN

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Offline Trivial Psychic

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Based on what I found with Den5's "In The Beginning" campaign, he suggests that a Shadow vessel had been uncovered by Earth Force during the war, and that a move had been afoot to retrofit at least 2 Nova class.  Although there is nothing in B5 canon to support this, there is evidence that at least some elements of EA had access to Shadow Tech before the civil war, and that was the Black Ops ship that destroyed the Ceberus.  My guess is that the Shadows sought to use their contacts within Earth Force to try to create a new design, using Humanity's Out-Of-The-Box thinking.  This would be similar to the ISA contracting Humans to create the Victory class, by providing them with the technology to incorporate into the ship, and seeing what they can come up with.  The fact that EA could design and build the Black Ops Hybrid design so early, but still have trouble designing and building ships that don't even have half the level of technology, for the engagements late in the civil war, suggests that Clark's scientists didn't have direct control over the Shadow tech, and that another group had taken part in the earlier Hybrid.  Therefore, this group could have had previous experience with the technology, meaning that its not outside the realm of possibility that the Nova-X Hybrid design could have been available with a much less mature version of the Shadow tech.
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Offline starlord

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I see!

What is that "in the beginning" campaign so many people are mentionning?

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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It was made by Den5 as a kind of Mod for TBP 2.0.  I was in the process of trying to update it to 3.2 standards, which I started back in 2005.  I had made some progress, but RL started heating up (wedding plans), and then I decided to stop and start from the beginning because I'd improved my FREDding techniques.  I haven't touched it in a couple of years now.  Also, it wasn't just a simple compatibility upgrade, I was making some improvements for FSO, and adding more dialogue, and of course doing my best to properly translate it into English... the existing one must have been put through some poor translation software from the original Russian text... no offense to Den5.
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Offline starlord

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Thanks for clarifying.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Actually I read somewhere that JMS said EA didnt encounter Shadow Tech till AFTER the E-M War. Thus while agents of the Shadows may have been infitrating the EA prior to the war, it is Canon that EA didn't encounter Shadow-tech untill IPX dug up that ship on Mars in 2253. Then came the disasterous Icarus mission to Z'ha'dum in late 2256/early 2257, where thay awoke the Shadows. It was after this that the Shadows and their Agents actively turned towards Earth.

The Hybrid was construced sometime between 2253 and 2259 and was considered a failed experiment. Also the The First actively working combination combination of EA and Shadow Tech was the Omega-X fleet, which was basically a kitbash of the two Techs. This was followed much more sucessfully by the Warlock destroyer.

I thus repeat my objection to the Nova-X being shadow tech, since it contradicts canon.

BUT. it is Miburo's campaign. I don't seek to offend him, but i think we should have this Nova-X on standby at the very least
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:20:01 pm by terran_emperor »
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

HLP's only Goro Naya (Great Leader) fan


"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


"Only one thing is impossible for a Vorlon to understand: How to change the IRQ setting in any DOS computer."

HLP Brit

 

Offline starlord

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Which is mostly, a reskin "yellow" omega, along with different weapons, right? I don't see further modifications...

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Does anyone have any reference images of this thing?
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Do you mean the rotation-equipped Nova?  It's more of an accidentally canon ship.  During an early battle in the E-M war (as seen in the ITB movie), a wave of Minbari War Cruisers are seen torching a group of EA capital ships.  If you don't look too closely, you might think that they're just Nova class, but a more detailed inspection would reveal that all are rotation-equipped.  The official answer, is that they were an accident of CGI, and were in fact Omegas, but as far as the show's timeline is concerned, they can't be, since that class wasn't commissioned until after the war.  The compromise by fans was to declare that these were a group (and the only group) of experimental Nova designs intended for long-duration spaceflight, equipped with rotational sections.  The idea would then be that the Nova-X was used as the basis for the Omega design.  I do recall reading however, about a prototype ship with similar description to the Nova-X, I believe called Orion, but it was to have been designed after the war, and was quickly dropped in favor of the much better Omega.  I think I may have read it on B5 Tech a few years ago.  I don't think its there anymore.

BTW, there are some "reference images" in the link terran_emperor posted.  A link within the ship description will take you there, but its quite hard to make it out from the images.  Take it from me though, I've got the movie and I've seen the CGI blunder for myself.  Not much to go by, so its a bit of a creative blank slate, unless someone else has made some fan models or specs.  I wouldn't use the model image from B5 Tech, as its just an omega.  I'd probably do a simple Nova with the rotational section, and perhaps a few aft-firing guns near the engines like on the Omega... just my take.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 07:24:47 pm by Trivial Psychic »
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Offline Miburo

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Shadow Nova plays with idea that EAI (intel) has gained access to shadow tech through either third party sales or found it somewhere. This all was to happen in quiet of war (eyes were turned to other direction) and was to serve in campaigns to come as seperate secret organisation (led by certain members in EA gov) in various branches of EA. It was kind a main idea of Janus campaigns of which 1st was to lay foundation to it.

I am very aware that it is non-canon, but so is Nova-X in ITB. Also my whole campaign (and sequels are too) is completely non-canon  ;)

So to serve original campaign Nova-X is Shadow Nova and not early Omega variant. It really is shame that I don't have campaign scripts anymore, it was very intresting story that even involved cooperation with Psi Corps and their (yet again non-canon) military involvement in Nova-X and Omega-X shipyard engagement. Well it is never getting that far, I am amazed if we manage to rebuild Janus 1. Maybe someday I find intrest and memory to write it all again and post it for free dibs, but thats very unlikely to happen in near future.
Lady Rose, survivor of VWBB with 1198 post, lost somewhere along the line

Creator of Tale of EAS Janus campaign
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Offline captain-custard

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as i was reading my way through the forums today i came across a post in the freespace restoration forum where some one was asking about renewing or fixing the tales of ea janus...;

well first things first , it was mentioned that there were some compatability issues with TBP 3.4 so i had a quick chat with fubar... and i tried to run it ;
 

i put the "janus" vp in my tbp folder and use an RC2inf build and i left Zathras as my mod folder....used a new pilot


well it loads and the first mission works no problems , i will continue runing through it but if any one else would like to try the same set up and see if it works i would be really interested if you get the same results ...;

ok im heading back to testing it ...;
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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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I might take a look at some of this tonight and see what is different from 3.4b and what it would take to updated the tables and change them to .tbm  files.
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Progress being made.  Got the tables stripped down to 2 .tbm files.  Redid the Nova-X that was in there:




Hopefully that's what it's supposed to look like. 

Moving on to see what is in there that isn't used. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Miburo

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Main issue that exsists with Janus and TBP3.4 is balance problem (it is completely off), also various docking point problems are obivious, most likely huge bunch of errors that might render some of missions completely unplayable. For instance there is one mission where Janus is too close to jumpgate and results Janus to start rolling around for 10 mins. Those just from top of my mind.
Janus was made for TBP1.0 and that was 2001-2002? Problems are bound to rise up.

Also that who was in restoration forums, I can bet money that it was starlord. As I have pointed out I am welcoming any fredder I can get, because I simply dont have time for this project. FWW2 project for ArmA eats away all computer time that I have for a day which is about 1-2 hours a day, rest of day to work and being husband and father of 2. So you folks see, if I dont get notable aid on this it wont be done 'til kingdom come.

Fubar, that looks very familiar indeed. We were planning simply to use FRED_Opens texture replacement on regular Nova, but that looks better.
Lady Rose, survivor of VWBB with 1198 post, lost somewhere along the line

Creator of Tale of EAS Janus campaign
Mod leader of FWW2 - Finland At War 1939-1945 for Armed Assault

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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I thought of going with the texture replacement but the speed and hit points were different too.  Plus it already needs a .tbm for the weapons which is another issue.  Missing textures on the beams which I'm working on now.  Then there is some kind of Minbari torpedo which the Minbari don't use non-emp secondaries so that may be a problem.  I removed it and FRED never complained so must not have been loaded on any ships.  Same with the Narn Laser.  There is probably already something that does that. 

Balancing is definitely going to be the issue. 

I'll post a link to what I have either in a little bit or tomorrow. 

BTW there was only 1 mission that wouldn't load in FRED.  Wrong ship type (support) and named wrong.  Every other mission loaded with only trivial issues like no secondaries on Alpha 1.
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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EAS_Janus.rar

Remember it has .tbm files so it needs to be in a mod folder. 

Well it has beams.  Might be a little over the top but it can be balanced later.

So changes:

Nova-X.pof recreated from the Nova
ships.tbl converted to .tbm.  Only Nova-X remains. 
weapons.tbl converted to .tbm.  Only 2 Nova-X beams remain
music.tbl eliminated.  Didn't see anything in there that wasn't in 3.4b
Mission 18 ship fixed
Duplicate textures and effects removed

Still needs some clean up but I didn't want to eliminate some of the stuff just in case.  That can always be done later. 

So get FREDding. 



No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Miburo

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Yes besides balancing issues other problems are small and trivial, mostly doesn't even cause problem to player. However one thing that makes this all so big project: Janus campaign 1 sucks extremely much, missions are literally crap and besides dying yourself chances of failing mission are zero (well slightly balance problem). I am ashamed that I actually made missions like that somewhen (it was inevitable, I was beginner at the time) and by far they don't deserve to be praised in condition they are in .VP file.

Compare 16th mission (OK it was always most challenging mission in whole bunch, but still) in campaign file and one that I posted on first post of this topic. Now it actually provides some challenge and feeling, before it extremely short and after you destroyed front beams of Sharlin mission was pretty much done, just quick run to gate while Nials are killing your wingmen. This how I see best mission on campaign, guess how I feel about rest of missions in campaign.

Now I have come a long way since and I have no intention to release it as crappy as it was back then, I rather leave it unreleased and let it pass in history of TBP. I really would love to see this remade and brought up to date, but without help its not going to happen. I am thankful for any actual help that I receive, but so far beyond Fubar and Angelus (and starlords attempts to recruit) it has been a kind word. Even if its nice that people shows support on this, it doesn't make it more ready than it is now.

Getting members aboard is hard, but keeping them has proven to be harder.

P.S Narn Laser was Narn beam that was used in few missions and Nial torpedos were old Minbari missiles from R1.0 abd R2.0 (I think), I propably forgot to remove them at some fighters or they were there to balance mission.

Also thanks again Fubar.
Lady Rose, survivor of VWBB with 1198 post, lost somewhere along the line

Creator of Tale of EAS Janus campaign
Mod leader of FWW2 - Finland At War 1939-1945 for Armed Assault

 

Offline captain-custard

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thanks fubar and everyone else , i spent a few hours last night playing through it and asking enless questions to fubar on irc until my girlfreind demanded my presence at 4.30am :)

i agree there aresome balancing issues but this is still very playable , if there is any way i can help i would be glad too , my fredding skills are very low but i have lots of free time and can run through things looking for bugs etc , if needed i have a fair bit of music software etc and can if ppl want start making up voice files etc anyway would love to be a part of this so if you want my some what limited help im there
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 05:19:27 am by andicirk »
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Offline Miburo

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Well you certainly shouldn't ignore her when she calls your name.

I take anything at this point that I can take, so check your PMs.
Lady Rose, survivor of VWBB with 1198 post, lost somewhere along the line

Creator of Tale of EAS Janus campaign
Mod leader of FWW2 - Finland At War 1939-1945 for Armed Assault

 

Offline captain-custard

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done and thanks
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together."