Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: SaltyWaffles on March 17, 2013, 10:07:19 pm
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(Also, I'm not quite dead, unfortunately. Sorry to disappoint.)
So the ending mission/cutscene in Tenebra has a line in it--"anything it takes to stop him" IIRC, though I haven't played that mission in a while--and I never quite understood what the 'he' was referring to.
I assumed it was Steele, but that is sort of confused by the fact that Noemi just says that he was one of the people she learned from--along with some others. But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.
So, we've got Laporte, the Fedayeen, and 3rd Fleet. That's clear. However, the Fedayeen cooperate with and to an extent answer to the Council of Elders--but the Elders are apparently compromised by the Vishnans. But their mysterious endgame contingency plan is considered by the Fedayeen to be the right way forward despite not knowing what it is. The Elders were told that Laporte died in the Nagari operation because they're compromised by the Vishnans, and the Vishnans would inflict a horrible fate on Laporte if they found out who/what she was. And yet, Sam Bei already knows exactly who/what she is, the fact that she's in Nagari contact with a non-Vishnan entity, and that she's the one the Vishnans were trying to catch in UT2...and Sam is quite possibly the *most* compromised by Vishnans of the major Ubuntu leadership players. On top of that, the Elders already know that Laporte is the source (or receiver) of the massive Nagari activity in Sol, through Vicmouth's report.
So why lie to the Elders? Why trust in the Elders' unknown endgame contingency when you know nothing about it, you believe the Elders to be compromised, and one Elder already betrayed the UEF partly because of that contingency? Why are the Elders seemingly after Laporte after UT2?
What's stopping Laporte (and/or the Fedayeen) from striking some kind of truce or cooperation with Steele by explaining the reality of the situation with the wealth of evidence they've accumulated (evidence that, importantly, comes from a source outside the Shivans or Vishnans and fully acknowledges the Vishnan manipulation of Federation society)? Not to mention that Steele and the Security Council have to know that the GTVA being even significantly stronger as a result of successfully preventing the projected outcome of Federation influence on the Tevs will be totally irrelevant with regards to preparedness against Shivan invasions if it comes at the cost of invoking the Shivans' ire.
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Laporte leaves behind her name at the end of Tenebra when she transfers to the Toutatis. I find this a little odd, as I'm wondering how that would actually keep her identity secret without severely restricting her command capacity. Her voice would need to sound different, she would either need to look very different or never really be seen by almost anyone, and you'd have to prevent anyone from making the connection of 'Brevetted pilot given very high authority over the remains of Third Fleet' with Laporte, hero of Neptune and bane of the Carthage.
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Laporte building a power base, starting with the Fedayeen. Okay, that makes sense, but where exactly can she go from there? Beyond Third Fleet, is the best she can get Second Fleet and some Gef support? Can she--not to mention *should* she--try to get aid from the Tevs, and if so, how can she actually accomplish that without rendering the war itself nonsensical? Even getting Vasudan help would be equivocal to breaking the Alliance and rendering the war nonsensical. And how will she build such a power base when she doesn't even know what it's for?
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How is buying the Federation about a week or so of time enough to make a significant difference with regards to Shambhala (sp?), especially if the progress for it is supposed to be slow-going even with the Agincourt? And between the four additional destroyer battlegroups the Tevs are bringing to bear and the possibility of Anemoi and GVL logistic support, what's stopping the Tevs from just bringing a totally insurmountable level of force into Sol to decisively conclude the war if they're willing to pull said force from their Shivan watch?
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And are the Vasudan lines appearing by the name of the HoL entity in the Dreamscape meant to be deciphered by us at all? Do they actually have a determined meaning? Will we ever find out that meaning, if it exists?
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I could see Steele becoming the next Marcus Glaive and secretly teaming up with Laporte while using the war as cover.
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The Vasudan words do have defined meanings and should be loosely translatable if you make use of the Vasudan Word of the Day.
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The Vasudan words do have defined meanings and should be loosely translatable if you make use of the Vasudan Word of the Day.
...Aaaaand there go 2 hours of my sleep. *sigh* Hello FRED...
EDIT: This is going to be harder than I though...
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But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.
The whole "shades of grey everywhere" ambiance of BP makes it difficult to define protagonists and antagonists in the first place, just as there are no clearly defined good guys and bad guys.
what's stopping the Tevs from just bringing a totally insurmountable level of force into Sol to decisively conclude the war if they're willing to pull said force from their Shivan watch?
Nothing. That's exactly what they're doing. Five destroyer battlegroups in Sol and two more on standby at DS is already stretching the GTVA logistics very well beyond their limits. This is not a situation they can sustain, and Steele will have to strike soon or loose all momentum, ending up with his very own logistic crisis.
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Regarding Steele "teaching" Laporte:
From being on the receiving end of his tactics, Laport learned how he acts and thinks. That way she also learned how to exploit his weaknesses (-> her finest hour) and how to anticipate and counter his strategies (to some extend anyway). The Fedayeen even managed to fool him completely in regards to Costadin cell.
As for why the Fedayeen don't ally with the GTVA I can see two reasons:
-Choosing the better chance. The Fedayeen believe that the GTVA's actions will doom mankind for sure, while they don't know what the secret project will do. In other words the choose possible disaster over certain disaster.
-Time and the possibility to stop it. If the GTVA wins, it's over. Without the UEF to back them up, the Fedayeen can't defeat the GTVA on their own, so if they act against the Tevs they have to do it now, before the UEF falls, which gives a timeframe measured in days.
The Vishnan infection on the other hand isn't an immediate problem and can most likely wait for another month or maybe even decades (though some precautions are obviously taken), thus the Fedayeen first concentrate on the immediate problem of the GTVA invasion.
And how will she build such a power base when she doesn't even know what it's for?
I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.
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I think the OP's questionings are will a lot of merit. Ending Tenebra, and after appreciating the work of art that it is, one sobers up and realises that the wider plot, wrt to the pace and purpose is placed on the top of a thin blade, which may easily come down to blatant meaningless events. What I mean by this is that we leave Tenebra (And UT2) without any hint on what exactly we are supposed to fight and why exactly are we supposed to fight it. I'm with the OP in here. Why does Ken go to so many levels to explain to us what the Shivans are and what Al Dawa is and what is he himself, etc., and fail to impress upon Laporte the purpose of her struggle?
With so much emphasis on the greyish matter of war and problems involved, we are left (as players) without purpose or care. At this point I don't know why should I care that the GTVA is defeated, nor why should I want to defend compromised Ubuntu Earth.
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I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.
I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.
(sorry for the double post)
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I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.
I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.
(sorry for the double post)
For all we know it doesn't. The current doom seems to be a product of the Vishnan's deciding it, and Shivan's being happy to implement it.
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I believe we are left with a sort of information vacuum simply because act 3 is supposed to tie in tightly with acts 4 & 5.
Meaning we have this huge ass chunk of information missing simply because act 3 was released as a standalone.
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I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.
I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.
(sorry for the double post)
For all we know it doesn't. The current doom seems to be a product of the Vishnan's deciding it, and Shivan's being happy to implement it.
^ This. I interpreted the whole GTVA wins = doom thing as an outcome assigned by the Vishnans. Since they don't appear to be getting along with the Shivans real well at the moment, I can't say I think it's a sure thing.
Also define GTVA winning. What if at the end of the war Sol joins the GTVA, but the GTVA's political structure is radically altered? They may have technically won the war, but have the doom conditions been met?
How does Ken play into this? The thing is, playing WiH Acts 1 and 2, Ken implied that yes, UEF victory was required. He still does, but Act 3 showed us that the things Sam took for granted may be wrong. May that be the same for Laporte? What if nothing we've heard s far is entirely true?
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GTVA - Vasudans = GTVA is destroyed
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The Elders, Ken and the Fedayeen are all convinced that a GTVA victory will spell doom for mankind and that is what dictates their actions.
Wether it's the actual truth might make a nice academic debate for us, but ultimately it won't matter. Not unless someone or some event "in story" manages to sway at least one of those three's opinion anyway.
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The Elders, Ken and the Fedayeen are all convinced that a GTVA victory will spell doom for mankind and that is what dictates their actions.
Wether it's the actual truth might make a nice academic debate for us, but ultimately it won't matter. Not unless someone or some event "in story" manages to sway at least one of those three's opinion anyway.
Steele :)
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What if nothing we've heard s far is entirely true?
This is almost certainly the case. Ken, Vishnans, Shivans, Fedayeen, and so on all have their own agendas and interpretations of things. I'd say the Fedayeen are closest to the truth now though. Other human/vasudan factions are in the dark and the Shivans and Vishnans are strongly biased about.... something.
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But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.
The whole "shades of grey everywhere" ambiance of BP makes it difficult to define protagonists and antagonists in the first place, just as there are no clearly defined good guys and bad guys.
protagonist/antagonist is not a moral judgement, it's a structural property of the story, at least as i understand it
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Which is yet made clearer when the good and bad guys are clearly defined. I didn't say there weren't protagonists and antagonists, just that they aren't necessarily clearly identifiable as such.
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er, laporte is clearly the protagonist
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Which is yet made clearer when the good and bad guys are clearly defined. I didn't say there weren't protagonists and antagonists, just that they aren't necessarily clearly identifiable as such.
Yes, but when I'm not sure if the Tevs--or what element of the Tevs--are the antagonists of the story at this point, or if the Vishnans are, or if the Elders are closer to antagonists or protagonists, or who will be fighting who (or why), then there might be an issue. Comments made in this thread have definitely helped clear some stuff up, but nonetheless I feel like the specifics of how Tenebra ends makes things far more confusing than setting up a clear showdown for acts 4/5.
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Why is that an issue?
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Why is that an issue?
I wouldn't be able to tell what was going on in the story. Who was fighting whom, why, and who was allied to whom, etc...and by extension, what am I supposed to do, why am I doing it, and who I'm doing it to? Which factions are opposing which factions, and howso? What is the Fedayeen's overarching immediate objective? It's talked about like it's supposed to be clear, and we're supposed to know the Fedayeen thoroughly by now (which we mostly do), but some of these blanks throw that into uncertainty.
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You're postulating a problem and then explaining the opposite. The issue you face is not a lack of information on these topics. The issue is that you now know a great deal about the motivations (and ulterior motives) of all the factions in play, and you can't pick a clear horse to back.
The Fedayeen's overarching objective is handed to you on a platter. It's practically the first thing you learn about them.
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You're postulating a problem and then explaining the opposite. The issue you face is not a lack of information on these topics. The issue is that you now know a great deal about the motivations (and ulterior motives) of all the factions in play, and you can't pick a clear horse to back.
The Fedayeen's overarching objective is handed to you on a platter. It's practically the first thing you learn about them.
Yes, but their actions and words at the end of Tenebra muddle the waters. They fake Laporte's death to keep her secret from the Elders, but they say that the Elders are compromised by the Vishnans and thus can't be trusted...but they're devoting everything to the success of some massive, endgame Council project that they know nothing about. They're not against cooperating with the Vishnans, but they are so wary of and mistrustful of the Vishnans that they're wiling to fake Laporte's death so that the Vishnans don't find her from the Elders.
It's not that I can't pick a clear horse to back--that was the classic problem for WiH1. It's that I can't tell who is opposing whom, why, or in some cases *how* to a degree where I'm confused.
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I feel like there's some obvious conclusions to draw there.
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At times of confusion it is important to go back to the basics of this war:
The GTVA launched an unprovoked, vicious assult against a peacefull society that's only crime was to try to improve humanity and lead us to a better future.
The GTVA claimed that they were the only force capable of combating the shivans but after 18 months of war, despite a massive technological advantage, the war could still go either way and the GTVA has to gear up for a desperate all or nothing assult in on their enemy's strongholds in an attempt to end the war before it is too late
If the GTVA win the shivans will exterminate us all.
I'm backing the UEF ;)
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Well, in their defense the GTVA's original plan would have averted much of the bloodshed. Morian botched it horribly and got them into their current situation.
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't would be awsummm if BP3, if made, had a Zod as the main ptotagonist, giving their own perspective to the trilogy. Very Paul Auster, but thats a good thing after all.
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I guess it would probably do no harm to say that the protagonist of BP3 is a Vasudan, yeah.
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON [...] Sorry
In other words, I don't believe you Batts.
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Forum posts in general aren't canon, but when a team member explicitly invokes authorial privilege (especially one of the main writers) I think we can take that as canon.
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Battutal infallibility? :p
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It only makes sense, from a formal pov. :)
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The protagonist is a vasudan because humanity will be extinct by then. (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-stare.gif)
Also, pretty sure you're supposed to be confused at this point in the story. It's on purpose. It's by design.
Right now I put my trust in Laporte and the Fedayeen and that's it.
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The protagonist is a vasudan because humanity will be extinct by then. (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-stare.gif)
Also, pretty sure you're supposed to be confused at this point in the story. It's on purpose. It's by design.
Right now I put my trust in Laporte and the Fedayeen and that's it.
Right, but the kind of confusion I'm talking about is the kind that is jarring from the narrative, not (seemingly) intentional ambiguity. As in, Laporte and the Fedayeen don't seem confused, despite knowing no more than we do on the relevant subjects, so it seems reasonable that not understanding their lack of confusion is an issue.
I mean, if the Elders' secret contingency is inspired by/directed by the Vishnans, and the Fedayeen are devoting everything towards the success of that contingency, then why are the Vishnans and the Fedayeen (/Laporte, too) so at odds with each other? If they share the same goal (at least in the short-term), why are the Vishnans so adamant about hunting down and exterminating an ally (Laporte)?
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I honestly don't understand your reasoning. Some of this confusion feels like it's of your making.
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Congratulations, Operator. We brought you into the Fedayeen to complete this mission, and you have excelled beyond all expectation.
Analyst Thorn and the CASSANDRA unit have completed their review of your experience. These are their conclusions.
It appears that the Council of Elders has been in Nagari contact with the Vishnan aliens for decades. The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social reengineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche.
The GTVA discovered the Vishnans independently, and determined that these aliens posed a threat to human survival. Their invasion of Sol appears to be, in part, an effort to purge humanity of Vishnan-influenced leadership.
We do not object to the notion of cooperation with the Vishnans. However, it appears these aliens have determined their plan has failed and ordered the Shivans to annihilate mankind.
We must therefore consider the Elders compromised and untrustworthy. The information you retrieved from the Ken entity provides the only remaining option to escape extinction.
Fourteen minutes ago, the Elders requested that we turn you over for questioning. We have reported your unfortunate death during the Nagari intrusion.
Our priority for the moment remains victory against the GTVA. We will contact you once we have determined how the Ken entity can assist us - and what price we will pay to avert this existential catastrophe.
Your skills are needed on the front line. We are working with Admiral Calder to supply you with a covert identity and a squadron command. You will return to military service, but you will always remain Fedayeen.
The things you learned about me are true, Operator. I am all of the Fedayeen. And I am grateful.
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Congratulations, Operator. We brought you into the Fedayeen to complete this mission, and you have excelled beyond all expectation.
Analyst Thorn and the CASSANDRA unit have completed their review of your experience. These are their conclusions.
It appears that the Council of Elders has been in Nagari contact with the Vishnan aliens for decades. The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social reengineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche.
The GTVA discovered the Vishnans independently, and determined that these aliens posed a threat to human survival. Their invasion of Sol appears to be, in part, an effort to purge humanity of Vishnan-influenced leadership.
We do not object to the notion of cooperation with the Vishnans. However, it appears these aliens have determined their plan has failed and ordered the Shivans to annihilate mankind.
We must therefore consider the Elders compromised and untrustworthy. The information you retrieved from the Ken entity provides the only remaining option to escape extinction.
Fourteen minutes ago, the Elders requested that we turn you over for questioning. We have reported your unfortunate death during the Nagari intrusion.
Our priority for the moment remains victory against the GTVA. We will contact you once we have determined how the Ken entity can assist us - and what price we will pay to avert this existential catastrophe.
Your skills are needed on the front line. We are working with Admiral Calder to supply you with a covert identity and a squadron command. You will return to military service, but you will always remain Fedayeen.
The things you learned about me are true, Operator. I am all of the Fedayeen. And I am grateful.
So why would the Vishnans be so persistent in *ensuring* that humanity ends up a failure rather than waiting a little longer, seeing things play out in the remote chance that things would get back on track somehow?
And if the Fedayeen's priority is victory against the GTVA, wouldn't Shambala--and the fact that nothing is known about it, save for that it's designed and run by the Council of Compromised and Untrustworthy--be more of a threat than a goal? I mean, Shambala could be a huge waste of resources and opportunities that could otherwise be used to defeat the GTVA, for all they know.
If the Vishnans are actively working against the Federation and Shambala, but the Federation/Ubuntu is what lets humanity survive the purge, how is enacting the Vishnan plan still viable, and what does it accomplish? Why prioritize it over immediate military necessities?
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Your first question is an interesting one that you should surely be considering, the second seems irrelevant, and the third is a non sequitur since I don't think it is something anyone is doing.
Generally it seems like you're mixing up the status quo at the beginning of Tenebra with the dynamic state at the end.
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It's not even said anywhere that the Fedayeen are trying to support Shambala anymore, right?