Author Topic: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra  (Read 6300 times)

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Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
(Also, I'm not quite dead, unfortunately. Sorry to disappoint.)

So the ending mission/cutscene in Tenebra has a line in it--"anything it takes to stop him" IIRC, though I haven't played that mission in a while--and I never quite understood what the 'he' was referring to.

I assumed it was Steele, but that is sort of confused by the fact that Noemi just says that he was one of the people she learned from--along with some others. But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.

So, we've got Laporte, the Fedayeen, and 3rd Fleet. That's clear. However, the Fedayeen cooperate with and to an extent answer to the Council of Elders--but the Elders are apparently compromised by the Vishnans. But their mysterious endgame contingency plan is considered by the Fedayeen to be the right way forward despite not knowing what it is. The Elders were told that Laporte died in the Nagari operation because they're compromised by the Vishnans, and the Vishnans would inflict a horrible fate on Laporte if they found out who/what she was.  And yet, Sam Bei already knows exactly who/what she is, the fact that she's in Nagari contact with a non-Vishnan entity, and that she's the one the Vishnans were trying to catch in UT2...and Sam is quite possibly the *most* compromised by Vishnans of the major Ubuntu leadership players. On top of that, the Elders already know that Laporte is the source (or receiver) of the massive Nagari activity in Sol, through Vicmouth's report.

So why lie to the Elders? Why trust in the Elders' unknown endgame contingency when you know nothing about it, you believe the Elders to be compromised, and one Elder already betrayed the UEF partly because of that contingency? Why are the Elders seemingly after Laporte after UT2?

What's stopping Laporte (and/or the Fedayeen) from striking some kind of truce or cooperation with Steele by explaining the reality of the situation with the wealth of evidence they've accumulated (evidence that, importantly, comes from a source outside the Shivans or Vishnans and fully acknowledges the Vishnan manipulation of Federation society)? Not to mention that Steele and the Security Council have to know that the GTVA being even significantly stronger as a result of successfully preventing the projected outcome of Federation influence on the Tevs will be totally irrelevant with regards to preparedness against Shivan invasions if it comes at the cost of invoking the Shivans' ire.

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Laporte leaves behind her name at the end of Tenebra when she transfers to the Toutatis. I find this a little odd, as I'm wondering how that would actually keep her identity secret without severely restricting her command capacity. Her voice would need to sound different, she would either need to look very different or never really be seen by almost anyone, and you'd have to prevent anyone from making the connection of 'Brevetted pilot given very high authority over the remains of Third Fleet' with Laporte, hero of Neptune and bane of the Carthage.

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Laporte building a power base, starting with the Fedayeen. Okay, that makes sense, but where exactly can she go from there? Beyond Third Fleet, is the best she can get Second Fleet and some Gef support? Can she--not to mention *should* she--try to get aid from the Tevs, and if so, how can she actually accomplish that without rendering the war itself nonsensical? Even getting Vasudan help would be equivocal to breaking the Alliance and rendering the war nonsensical. And how will she build such a power base when she doesn't even know what it's for?

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How is buying the Federation about a week or so of time enough to make a significant difference with regards to Shambhala (sp?), especially if the progress for it is supposed to be slow-going even with the Agincourt? And between the four additional destroyer battlegroups the Tevs are bringing to bear and the possibility of Anemoi and GVL logistic support, what's stopping the Tevs from just bringing a totally insurmountable level of force into Sol to decisively conclude the war if they're willing to pull said force from their Shivan watch?


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And are the Vasudan lines appearing by the name of the HoL entity in the Dreamscape meant to be deciphered by us at all? Do they actually have a determined meaning? Will we ever find out that meaning, if it exists?
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
I could see Steele becoming the next Marcus Glaive and secretly teaming up with Laporte while using the war as cover.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
The Vasudan words do have defined meanings and should be loosely translatable if you make use of the Vasudan Word of the Day.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
The Vasudan words do have defined meanings and should be loosely translatable if you make use of the Vasudan Word of the Day.
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EDIT: This is going to be harder than I though...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:04:37 pm by An4ximandros »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.
The whole "shades of grey everywhere" ambiance of BP makes it difficult to define protagonists and antagonists in the first place, just as there are no clearly defined good guys and bad guys.

what's stopping the Tevs from just bringing a totally insurmountable level of force into Sol to decisively conclude the war if they're willing to pull said force from their Shivan watch?
Nothing. That's exactly what they're doing. Five destroyer battlegroups in Sol and two more on standby at DS is already stretching the GTVA logistics very well beyond their limits. This is not a situation they can sustain, and Steele will have to strike soon or loose all momentum, ending up with his very own logistic crisis.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
Regarding Steele "teaching" Laporte:
From being on the receiving end of his tactics, Laport learned how he acts and thinks. That way she also learned how to exploit his weaknesses (-> her finest hour) and how to anticipate and counter his strategies (to some extend anyway). The Fedayeen even managed to fool him completely in regards to Costadin cell.

As for why the Fedayeen don't ally with the GTVA I can see two reasons:
-Choosing the better chance. The Fedayeen believe that the GTVA's actions will doom mankind for sure, while they don't know what the secret project will do. In other words the choose possible disaster over certain disaster.
-Time and the possibility to stop it. If the GTVA wins, it's over. Without the UEF to back them up, the Fedayeen can't defeat the GTVA on their own, so if they act against the Tevs they have to do it now, before the UEF falls, which gives a timeframe measured in days.
The Vishnan infection on the other hand isn't an immediate problem and can most likely wait for another month or maybe even decades (though some precautions are obviously taken), thus the Fedayeen first concentrate on the immediate problem of the GTVA invasion.

And how will she build such a power base when she doesn't even know what it's for?
I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
I think the OP's questionings are will a lot of merit. Ending Tenebra, and after appreciating the work of art that it is, one sobers up and realises that the wider plot, wrt to the pace and purpose is placed on the top of a thin blade, which may easily come down to blatant meaningless events. What I mean by this is that we leave Tenebra (And UT2) without any hint on what exactly we are supposed to fight and why exactly are we supposed to fight it. I'm with the OP in here. Why does Ken go to so many levels to explain to us what the Shivans are and what Al Dawa is and what is he himself, etc., and fail to impress upon Laporte the purpose of her struggle?

With so much emphasis on the greyish matter of war and problems involved, we are left (as players) without purpose or care. At this point I don't know why should I care that the GTVA is defeated, nor why should I want to defend compromised Ubuntu Earth.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.

I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.

(sorry for the double post)

 
Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.

I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.

(sorry for the double post)

For all we know it doesn't. The current doom seems to be a product of the Vishnan's deciding it, and Shivan's being happy to implement it.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
 I believe we are left with a sort of information vacuum simply because act 3 is supposed to tie in tightly with acts 4 & 5.
 Meaning we have this huge ass chunk of information missing simply because act 3 was released as a standalone.

 

Offline Drogoth

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
I think Laporte knows very well what she's doing it for. She's doing it to stop the GTVA from defeating the UEF and thus dooming mankind to extinction and finishing off her list in the process.

I don't even know why the GTVA defeating the UEF spells doom for mankind at all. This may have been hinted at at some point, but the thought process in all of this is nebular, at best.

(sorry for the double post)

For all we know it doesn't. The current doom seems to be a product of the Vishnan's deciding it, and Shivan's being happy to implement it.

^ This. I interpreted the whole GTVA wins = doom thing as an outcome assigned by the Vishnans. Since they don't appear to be getting along with the Shivans real well at the moment, I can't say I think it's a sure thing.

Also define GTVA winning. What if at the end of the war Sol joins the GTVA, but the GTVA's political structure is radically altered? They may have technically won the war, but have the doom conditions been met?

How does Ken play into this? The thing is, playing WiH Acts 1 and 2, Ken implied that yes, UEF victory was required. He still does, but Act 3 showed us that the things Sam took for granted may be wrong. May that be the same for Laporte? What if nothing we've heard s far is entirely true?
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Offline Mars

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
GTVA - Vasudans = GTVA is destroyed

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
The Elders, Ken and the Fedayeen are all convinced that a GTVA victory will spell doom for mankind and that is what dictates their actions.
Wether it's the actual truth might make a nice academic debate for us, but ultimately it won't matter. Not unless someone or some event "in story" manages to sway at least one of those three's opinion anyway.

 

Offline Drogoth

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
The Elders, Ken and the Fedayeen are all convinced that a GTVA victory will spell doom for mankind and that is what dictates their actions.
Wether it's the actual truth might make a nice academic debate for us, but ultimately it won't matter. Not unless someone or some event "in story" manages to sway at least one of those three's opinion anyway.

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Offline redsniper

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
What if nothing we've heard s far is entirely true?

This is almost certainly the case. Ken, Vishnans, Shivans, Fedayeen, and so on all have their own agendas and interpretations of things. I'd say the Fedayeen are closest to the truth now though. Other human/vasudan factions are in the dark and the Shivans and Vishnans are strongly biased about.... something.
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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
But what really confuses the matter is that I'm not really certain about the general state of affairs after Tenebra with regards to protagonists and antagonists.
The whole "shades of grey everywhere" ambiance of BP makes it difficult to define protagonists and antagonists in the first place, just as there are no clearly defined good guys and bad guys.

protagonist/antagonist is not a moral judgement, it's a structural property of the story, at least as i understand it
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
Which is yet made clearer when the good and bad guys are clearly defined. I didn't say there weren't protagonists and antagonists, just that they aren't necessarily clearly identifiable as such.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
er, laporte is clearly the protagonist
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
Which is yet made clearer when the good and bad guys are clearly defined. I didn't say there weren't protagonists and antagonists, just that they aren't necessarily clearly identifiable as such.

Yes, but when I'm not sure if the Tevs--or what element of the Tevs--are the antagonists of the story at this point, or if the Vishnans are, or if the Elders are closer to antagonists or protagonists, or who will be fighting who (or why), then there might be an issue. Comments made in this thread have definitely helped clear some stuff up, but nonetheless I feel like the specifics of how Tenebra ends makes things far more confusing than setting up a clear showdown for acts 4/5.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pronoun (and antagonist) confusion at end of Tenebra
Why is that an issue?