[Dragon]

Actually, just adding triggers to silence people who are out of action would be comparatively easy. In fact, I think that should be the way to go. Just cut some dialogue when a wingman ejects, no quipping from the pod unless it's really necessary.

[Tolwyn]

Actually, just adding triggers to silence people who are out of action would be comparatively easy. In fact, I think that should be the way to go. Just cut some dialogue when a wingman ejects, no quipping from the pod unless it's really necessary.

Why would you do that? All you would achieve is breaking balancing in the later missions, which are extremely tough already.

[Dragon]

Well, I'm not suggesting actually doing that in current Saga missions, not without a rebalance. It should have either be done that way from the start, or not at all.
I'm just pointing out that it's not difficult to do, and could be done in a future campaign or a mod.

[General Battuta]

Well, I'm not suggesting actually doing that in current Saga missions, not without a rebalance. It should have either be done that way from the start, or not at all.
I'm just pointing out that it's not difficult to do, and could be done in a future campaign or a mod.

It is in fact difficult to do if you don't take the lazy route of having wingmen be unaware of each other's presence and never interacting meaningfully.

[Dragon]

That, or you could take out entire dialogue block if a wingman ejects. For example, Avatarr isn't going to pester Honeybear if he's floating in space (and out of comm range ), so none of their banter at later waypoints will play. Of course, that would cause the player to miss some good dialogue, but it could, in turn, give him a reason to keep that jerk's ship in one piece.  He isn't going to pester her if she's ejected either. Since in most missions, there are few wingman and the player doesn't talk much, this approach could boil down to only a couple of checks.

[headdie]

That, or you could take out entire dialogue block if a wingman ejects. For example, Avatarr isn't going to pester Honeybear if he's floating in space (and out of comm range ), so none of their banter at later waypoints will play. Of course, that would cause the player to miss some good dialogue, but it could, in turn, give him a reason to keep that jerk's ship in one piece.  He isn't going to pester her if she's ejected either. Since in most missions, there are few wingman and the player doesn't talk much, this approach could boil down to only a couple of checks.

then you have to edit the debriefing because mastermind no longer needs to shout at him after the mission

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not to mention you then need an alternative dialogue if you planned on following up on that side show in a later mission

[General Battuta]

That, or you could take out entire dialogue block if a wingman ejects. For example, Avatarr isn't going to pester Honeybear if he's floating in space (and out of comm range ), so none of their banter at later waypoints will play. Of course, that would cause the player to miss some good dialogue, but it could, in turn, give him a reason to keep that jerk's ship in one piece.  He isn't going to pester her if she's ejected either. Since in most missions, there are few wingman and the player doesn't talk much, this approach could boil down to only a couple of checks.

You're making it very apparent that you have never tried to do this for a mission of any complexity.

[Lorric]

Me, I've tried to work on suggestions which could keep the dialogue intact. If it was my game, I'd want every line of it to still be heard.

I've thought some more about my latest idea, and I think it's the best. Immersion-breaking, sure, having everyone get their ship back from nav to nav, but at least you'd get "real" combat at each nav. Everyone would be along for the ride until the end, downed pilots would talk from their pod.

EDIT: You'd have to throw in some spoofy thing in the training levels to explain it I guess.

GREYWOLF: "Hey Dorothy, watch this!"

*Greywolf's ship explodes*

SANDMAN: "What the..."

GREYWOLF: "Hey Dorothy, I'm talking to you from my ejector pod. Now, jump to the next nav."

*You jump*

GREYWOLF: "I'm baaaack!"

SANDMAN: "Huh?!?"

GREYWOLF: "Pretty cool, huh?"

SANDMAN: "Can I do that too?"

GREYWOLF: "No. You know why? Because you're a nobody. And I'm a somebody. Only somebodies can do that. Only important people who have important things to say can do that. You don't have anything worth listening to to say. Nobodies like you die. Because nobody cares about nobodies like you, who aren't even worth remembering their callsign, much less anything else. You understand me, nobody?"

[General Battuta]

What I've done with invincible wingmen in large mission is the following:

Wingmen report in when they've taken heavy damage and indicate that their weapons are now offline. (FRED scripting locks the wingman's weapons.) The wingman asks to be pulled out or given cover until they can make repairs or dock with a support ship.

This allows the wingman to stay alive but makes them useless in combat except as a distraction (you can ship-protect them to make them useless for even that.)

I'm not saying WCS should do this, though.

[Lorric]

What I've done with invincible wingmen in large mission is the following:

Wingmen report in when they've taken heavy damage and indicate that their weapons are now offline. (FRED scripting locks the wingman's weapons.) The wingman asks to be pulled out or given cover until they can make repairs or dock with a support ship.

This allows the wingman to stay alive but makes them useless in combat except as a distraction (you can ship-protect them to make them useless for even that.)

I'm not saying WCS should do this, though.

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

[General Battuta]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

[Lorric]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

Because your now disarmed wingmen wouldn't be contributing to the combat. Especially if you put ship protection on them. Saga seems to rely on these invulnerable guys to keep shooting the enemies down and breaking up the kilrathi forces.

New playtesting would be needed, and probably more wingmen added, or kilrathi removed, if your idea was implemented.

Some levels, there's no way any AIs would survive I expect, like the one in my OP. Both my idea and yours would fail there.

[General Battuta]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

Because your now disabled wingmen wouldn't be contributing to the combat. Especially if you put ship protection on them. Saga seems to rely on these invulnerable guys to keep shooting the enemies down and breaking up the kilrathi forces.

As I said in my previous post, wingmen can simply repair, re-enable their weapons and be de-protected, either if given time out of combat, if allowed to dock with a support ship (in FreeSpace), or (in WCS) between waypoints.

[Lorric]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

Because your now disabled wingmen wouldn't be contributing to the combat. Especially if you put ship protection on them. Saga seems to rely on these invulnerable guys to keep shooting the enemies down and breaking up the kilrathi forces.

As I said in my previous post, wingmen can simply repair, re-enable their weapons and be de-protected, either if given time out of combat, if allowed to dock with a support ship (in FreeSpace), or (in WCS) between waypoints.

I'm talking about Saga specifically. They can't use support ships and repair there.

On it's own merits, it's a great idea, I like it very much.

[General Battuta]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

Because your now disabled wingmen wouldn't be contributing to the combat. Especially if you put ship protection on them. Saga seems to rely on these invulnerable guys to keep shooting the enemies down and breaking up the kilrathi forces.

As I said in my previous post, wingmen can simply repair, re-enable their weapons and be de-protected, either if given time out of combat, if allowed to dock with a support ship (in FreeSpace), or (in WCS) between waypoints.

I'm talking about Saga specifically. They can't use support ships and repair there.

On it's own merits, it's a great idea, I like it very much.

Yes, they can. There is this marvelous tool both Saga and I use called 'FRED'. It's how ships are made invulnerable in the first place.

[Lorric]

Nice solution. That would be absolutely fine by me.

Yes, it would break Saga's balance still. I think my idea would come closer balance-wise, keeping the same amount of combat power from nav to nav, but I'm sure there are still plenty of missions it would break the balance, especially any protracted fighting.

Why would it break Saga's balance or change the amount of combat power nav to nav?

Because your now disabled wingmen wouldn't be contributing to the combat. Especially if you put ship protection on them. Saga seems to rely on these invulnerable guys to keep shooting the enemies down and breaking up the kilrathi forces.

As I said in my previous post, wingmen can simply repair, re-enable their weapons and be de-protected, either if given time out of combat, if allowed to dock with a support ship (in FreeSpace), or (in WCS) between waypoints.

I'm talking about Saga specifically. They can't use support ships and repair there.

On it's own merits, it's a great idea, I like it very much.

Yes, they can. There is this marvelous tool both Saga and I use called 'FRED'. It's how ships are made invulnerable in the first place.

That's not what I mean. How do you explain it in the game? Sure, it's not as blatant as invulnerability, or my plan for respawns at new navs, so maybe you just plough through with it, but wouldn't you want an explanation to go with it as to why they could do it and you couldn't?

[General Battuta]

That's not what I mean. How do you explain it in the game? Sure, it's not as blatant as invulnerability, or my plan for respawns at new navs, so maybe you just plough through with it, but wouldn't you want an explanation to go with it as to why they could do it and you couldn't?

How do you explain the fact that they're invulnerable and impervious to all damage? How do you explain them magically getting their ships back after ejecting? There's an element of contrivance no matter which way you go, but the lock-weapons approach also allows for better gameplay.

Maybe they got out a wrench and fixed the problem while out of combat. Maybe they power-cycled their weapons avionics. Maybe R2D2 did it. Who cares?

You're posing a problem - 'invulnerable wingmen allow me to exploit the gameplay' - and then poking at a solution which fixes this problem and which seems no more disruptive to verisimilitude than invulnerable spaceships. I hope you can see how that doesn't strike me as productive.

[Lorric]

That's not what I mean. How do you explain it in the game? Sure, it's not as blatant as invulnerability, or my plan for respawns at new navs, so maybe you just plough through with it, but wouldn't you want an explanation to go with it as to why they could do it and you couldn't?

How do you explain the fact that they're invulnerable and impervious to all damage? How do you explain them magically getting their ships back after ejecting? There's an element of contrivance no matter which way you go, but the lock-weapons approach also allows for better gameplay.

Maybe they got out a wrench and fixed the problem while out of combat. Maybe they power-cycled their weapons avionics. Maybe R2D2 did it. Who cares?

You're posing a problem - 'invulnerable wingmen allow me to exploit the gameplay' - and then poking at a solution which fixes this problem and which seems no more disruptive to verisimilitude than invulnerable spaceships. I hope you can see how that doesn't strike me as productive.

It is not a problem to me, since I suggested something which comes with a similar problem. I just thought you might. Your idea is probably the best so far, in terms of working for Saga's balance. Wingmen would still participate, but there would be times when they'd be out of it for a while and those Kilrathi were turned on you...

It would make the game harder, but it would also make it more fun in a way, since it would be in your interests to work as a team with your wingmen to keep the Kilrathi off your back, as once they decided to go off and repair, and ship protection went up, those Kilrathi would be turning their attention on you...

There'd still be the problem of being able to run though and your wingmen eventually do your job in some cases. But for a Saga specific fix, it would probably come the closest so far.

verisimilitude. New word. I like it. Bit of a mouthful, isn't it.

[Dragon]

Actually, Wing Commander has a self-repair systems that would simply repair subsystems over time. So, this option, despite not being quite in line with the original WC games, would be fairly good if there's a lot of talk in the mission. My method could be used for missions in which there's not too much banter. I'm personally going to try using my approach for most of the time, switching to Battuta's in some cases, like when a wingman who dies dramatically later in mission or when the dialogue is really important. Consider that cats would most likely go and try finishing off the repairing fighter, so it'd need some writing around.
Besides, I don't know if I want to give you a lot of immersion, Lorric. Last time you've gotten it, certain WoD threads got a lot more disturbing than they previously were.

[Lorric]

Actually, Wing Commander has a self-repair systems that would simply repair subsystems over time. So, this option, despite not being quite in line with the original WC games, would be fairly good if there's a lot of talk in the mission. My method could be used for missions in which there's not too much banter. I'm personally going to try using my approach for most of the time, switching to Battuta's in some cases, like when a wingman who dies dramatically later in mission or when the dialogue is really important. Consider that cats would most likely go and try finishing off the repairing fighter, so it'd need some writing around.
Besides, I don't know if I want to give you a lot of immersion, Lorric. Last time you've gotten it, certain WoD threads got a lot more disturbing than they previously were.

I think if ever I was to ever make a new mission for Saga, I might just go with my idea. As I would guess it would be the easiest to implement.

You made me laugh with that last line 

I miss the Wings of Dawn stuff already.