[TrashMan]

How do you expect to sell new consoles if there's no great, amazing, fabolous games for them?

It's a vicious circle. If you spend time and money to make games for the new console, you're spending less time and money for the old one.


That's why I prefer a PC. 
Games made 10 years ago and games made now - they'll pretty much all run on it
And the torretns...and movies...and various programs...and MODDING.

[Triple Ace]

Except that, unlike steam, this doesn't even offer the option to go offline.

I'm stuck on dial-up. I was looking forward to Splinter Cell: Conviction. F**k you Ubisoft.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I like how unlimited installs and having to put your saved games online are considered "added services."

When in the Halls of Shiva did unlimited installs become an added service? Games made back in the 1990s had unlimited installs for free. Hell, games made back in the 1980s didn't even need to be installed!

[Mongoose]

No modding on consoles.

Nuff said.

And modding has what to do with this discussion, precisely?

*points at thread title* 

Yes, but the thread has primarily been about the cons of ever-more-annoying DRM schemes.  I doubt The E wanted rampant fanboyism to come traipsing in and wreck the place.

And no, I don't like consoles - especially not when the first Xbox died as soon as the 360 came out and developers jumped ship wholesale. What am I supposed to do with a perfectly working gadget? Collect dust?!? It sure is now!

This is the way the gaming industry has always functioned: new generations of hardware come out with greatly-expanded capabilities, developers start creating new games for said new hardware that take advantage of said expanded capabilities, and the previous generation of hardware is allowed to slowly fade away into pleasant memories.

I personally think that it's poor practice (even if it makes sense from an economic standpoint) to do it so quickly. :/

What really constitutes "quickly," though?  The previous generation of consoles lasted five to seven years, depending on how you define it, and the previous one possibly even longer.  Hell, as has been noted earlier, there are still full-fledged commercial titles being released for the PS2, a full decade after it was introduced.  By most accounts, the current generation of consoles is expected to extend at least a few more years into this decade before getting replaced; the Big Three don't seem to be in much of a hurry to develop replacements, given their current sales, and initiatives like the 360 and PS3 trying to copy the Wii's motion-control success will only draw things out.  Having to spend a few hundred dollars on new hardware every several years doesn't seem like a massive hardship to me; you'll wind up having to do the same thing on a PC if you want to play a graphics-pushing title like Crysis, anyway.

It's not really any different from a functional standpoint than what happens to deprecated PC hardware: you don't exactly see anyone out there designing games for a Voodoo 2 anymore, do you? [...]

No, but you do see them making new games for the Dreamcast. 

Yes, for all of five people.

That's why I prefer a PC. 
Games made 10 years ago and games made now - they'll pretty much all run on it

Yeah, except for the potentially-huge emulation/virtualization hoops you might have to jump through, or those titles that just simply refuse to run on a newer OS.  (I have a copy of NASCAR 2000 that flat-out won't run on XP or later, since EA never released a patch for it.)  Meanwhile, I can go to the Wii's Virtual Console and pick up a copy of Super Mario Brothers or the original Metroid for a few bucks without needing to worry about how it'll run.

And the torretns...and movies...and various programs...and MODDING.

Torrents and programs don't really fit in this discussion at all, as they're entirely separate from what consoles are designed to do.  Even then, though, people have hacked several different consoles to run various Linux builds, and PS3s have been used in academic research due to the Cell processor's unique abilities, so you can do much more with the hardware than just play games if you're of a technical mindset.  As far as movies go, the 360 and PS3 already have built-in Netflix access, with the Wii following next year; besides that, the 360 can have content relayed to it via Windows Media Center, and the PS3 serves as a very capable Blu-Ray player.

As for modding, I'm not denying that it doesn't have inherent value (hell, just look at this community), and I've certainly enjoyed my share of mod content over the years.  But it isn't the be-all and end-all of a game's entertainment value, at least not for me.  There are console-only titles I own that I'll never be able to mod in the least that I could see myself playing a hundred times through over the course of my life, because they provide me with that much enjoyment just as they were released.  In the same way, I'd never attempt to re-write one of my favorite books in order to change the ending, but that doesn't stop me from re-reading them over and over again to relive my love for them.  And even putting that issue aside, as I said above, there's a vibrant homebrew/hacking community out there that has managed to pull off some really impressive stuff with console hardware and software.

Look, I'm not trying to push a this-vs-that agenda.  I personally own and actively play several game consoles from a few different generations, and I've been playing games on the PC since our family first bought one.  I don't care what platform a game is released for, provided I can enjoy it.  But I do feel the need to step in and address statements that I view as misguided, or even provably false.  It's possible to prefer one particular medium without incorrectly disparaging another.

[The E]

Yes, but the thread has primarily been about the cons of ever-more-annoying DRM schemes.  I doubt The E wanted rampant fanboyism to come traipsing in and wreck the place.

Exactly this. I know that modern consoles are locked down boxes, but they are locked down boxes that just work. They do the thing they were designed to do, and do it well. When I buy a game for my PS3, I know that it will work on my system, without me having to jump through any number of hoops to get to the fun part of gaming.
On the PC, DRM can and has caused a number of issues, from SecuROM killing disc drives or not working as designed, to the ridiculous online activation schemes as shown here.
I buy and play console games because they are convenient.

PC gaming, when it works, is just as enjoyable. It's just that, to me, there are genres where consoles are king (JRPGs, Action-Adventures, Racing), in others, the PC rules supreme (Simulations, Strategy, Western RPG). And modability is, of course, awesome.

[Fenrir]

Besides, the locked down boxes don't always stay locked down forever. Thanks to homebrew, Wii games are becoming increasingly easy to mod. You should see some of the projects that have come out of Brawl.

[The E]

Homebrew is not exactly official, is it?

[Fenrir]

Hardly. Never made the claim that it was though.

[butter_pat_head]

Yeah, except for the potentially-huge emulation/virtualization hoops you might have to jump through, or those titles that just simply refuse to run on a newer OS.  (I have a copy of NASCAR 2000 that flat-out won't run on XP or later, since EA never released a patch for it.)  Meanwhile, I can go to the Wii's Virtual Console and pick up a copy of Super Mario Brothers or the original Metroid for a few bucks without needing to worry about how it'll run.

Take a look at this Youtube vid.  Be sure to have annotations on.  ATM the virtual console isn't worth the effort, PAL users get shafted by crappy console VC titles while those in NTSC land get the same treatment with the computer VC titles.  I was emulating on a OC'd Celeron 300 in 1999 better than what the VC can do now.

[Mongoose]

I do agree that that particular title seems to be glitched, but I can't recall hearing of any widespread problems with the emulation of Nintendo's own consoles (or the Genesis, for that matter), and that's all I'd primarily be interested in.  I know I could emulate anything I want on my PC without too much trouble, but some of us actually prefer to go the legal route and support the developers/publishers who make these titles available.

[blackhole]

Can we please not say that the PC is a bad gaming platform because a bunch of companies are doing stupid things with it? Just because people misuse a platform does not mean the platform is inherently bad.

I've gotten Descent 3 to run on Windows 7 without compatibility mode and its 11 years old now. Properly coded games will almost always work on newer OSes even if they're a decade old.

DRM must be designed to be extremely annoying to people attempting to pirate the game, but not for legal customers. At some point in the future, companies will figure this out. Eventually. Espiecally if there's a gun pointed at their heads.

[Scooby_Doo]

DRM must be designed to be extremely annoying to people attempting to pirate the game, but not for legal customers.

Except it does just the opposite.

[Kosh]

To elaborate on this: I don't like piracy. If $DEVELOPER makes an awesome game that I love to play, they should get the money they deserve so that they can make more games.

But, and this is the crucial part, if I buy a game, I expect that copy of the game to be mine. And that I am free to do with that copy whatever I want to do. And that I can play that game whenever I feel like it, and not be bound to some online activation/DRM scheme that relies on the benevolence of the distributor (Note that there's a difference between developers and distributors).

Consoles have just as much DRM as PC's, maybe even more so because of the proprietary nature of consoles themselves.

Exactly this. I know that modern consoles are locked down boxes, but they are locked down boxes that just work. They do the thing they were designed to do, and do it well. When I buy a game for my PS3, I know that it will work on my system, without me having to jump through any number of hoops to get to the fun part of gaming.
On the PC, DRM can and has caused a number of issues, from SecuROM killing disc drives or not working as designed, to the ridiculous online activation schemes as shown here.

That's because a console isn't capable of the same usefulness of a PC. The PC is amazing because you can do so many different things with it, not just gaming. It's a jack of all trades type of deal. This also leads to an interesting side effect because you outsource opensource the code to old games, extending their coolness and their life. How many Freespace Open like projects exist in the console world? I've never heard of one.

[The E]

All true. The versatility of PCs is what makes them great. The ability to mod games is awesome. Note that I have never disputed this.

BUT: With all the DRM schemes in place, modding gets increasingly difficult, so much so that "modability" is a feature that needs to be advertised.
BUT: The fact that the DRM in consoles is of the "makes life difficult for pirates" variety, and that the games I buy just work, is a big selling point to me. Not to mention the fact that I can resell that game, or take it with me to a mates' place to play it there without much of a hassle.

In short, if I want user-generated content, I'll get the PC game. If I just want to play a game, I'll boot up the Console.
That homebrew on Consoles is a very gray thing is sad, from a philosophical standpoint. But in all honesty, most of the games I play on Consoles do not seem to lend themselves to modding that well, so it's a capability that I, for one, do not really miss.

[phatosealpha]

Funny.  In my experience, the 'it just works' feature of console gaming is a thing of the past.  Between ever growing complexity of games, and the reality that patches can now be put out for console games, it's been getting less and less true.  And that's only if you're considering software errors.  I refuse to discount hardware errors in considering whether a game 'just works' - and lets be blunt here, console hardware ain't exactly universally celebrated for reliability.

If you start to consider multiplayer gaming even slightly, the console 'just works' experience becomes "bugged, and if you're lucky they'll fix it while you might still want to play the game.."

Moving from PC to console, in terms of reliability at least, is a side grade at best.  All you're really doing is trading a fair chance of annoying, but likely fixable problems, for a smaller chance of large and unfixable problem.


As for DRM....well, yeah, it's better on the consoles right now, sort of.  I'm not at all sure I'd count on that remaining though - in terms of pure numbers, console piracy is already bigger then PC piracy, if much lower in percentage.  The new PSP though, shows they are at least considering moving to digital distribution.  If and when they make that move, the DRM lockdown will make you yearn for the days of Starforce.

[The E]

Well, I can only speak about my own experiences here. And those tell me that failures in the general infrastructure of delivering the game content from the developer to me are exceedingly rare.

Sure, if your hardware vendor cooks up a lemon like MS did with the 360, you are SOL. But that's why you shouldn't buy Consoles still in their first hardware revision.

I have had a launch-day PS2 for about 8 years before it finally died, switched to a slim-line and then bought a PS3 this Christmas. So, my personal experience with the hardware is perhaps more positive than yours.

Also, given the prices of console games, and my limited budget, I have no problem doing the research before I buy something. That's usually sufficient to find out whether or not a given title has severe problems.

in terms of pure numbers, console piracy is already bigger then PC piracy,

Citation please. I still see a distinct lack of pirated PS3 games, and other than getting it for free, there are no benefits to pirated games. In most cases, in order to use those, I have to break my Console (voiding its warranty and jeopardizing its functionality) and hope that the crackers did their job correctly.
On the PC, a de-DRMed game offers better functionality, thereby making piracy an attractive option even if you have bought the game legally.

And if the new PSP's success is any indication, a purely digital distribution system is still far off.

[Kosh]

BUT: With all the DRM schemes in place, modding gets increasingly difficult, so much so that "modability" is a feature that needs to be advertised.

Yeah, this is what I really hate about PC DRM: it often punishes paying customers because pirates can find ways around the copy protection. I've made a pledge, when I get a new computer (in like 5 years or something), I wont buy any games that are full of DRM (like Starforce "protected" games). However, games that reward you by not having super *****y DRM like that Galactic Civilizations game a couple years ago, if I can buy I will buy. I didn't buy that game because I don't have any extra money at the moment, but I won't pirate it.

This reminds me of a Computer Chronicles episode in 1985 about software piracy, the recommendation was simply dont have such obnoxiously expensive stuff for consumers.

[phatosealpha]

in terms of pure numbers, console piracy is already bigger then PC piracy,

Citation please. I still see a distinct lack of pirated PS3 games, and other than getting it for free, there are no benefits to pirated games. In most cases, in order to use those, I have to break my Console (voiding its warranty and jeopardizing its functionality) and hope that the crackers did their job correctly.
On the PC, a de-DRMed game offers better functionality, thereby making piracy an attractive option even if you have bought the game legally.

And if the new PSP's success is any indication, a purely digital distribution system is still far off.

Any torrent tracker can convince you of this, though you'll need to look at the 360 versions instead of the PS3 games.  PS3 piracy should have low numbers, largely the same reason you had low Gamecube piracy last generation - small install base and specialty media format.




Eh....Stardock.  Can't say I care for them.   Sure, they skip out on DRM, but the also produce games on a very limited budget targeted at niche markets.  Fine if you happen to be in that niche I suppose, but after GalCiv 2 and Sins......well, a DRM free game that I don't want to play hardly seems wonderful to me.



I'm curious though, what the thinking is on the DRM approach Bioware is taking is round here.  The DRM is largely about the DLC, and in Dragon Age and ME2 you get extra content for dealing with the DRM.

[Fenrir]

PS3 piracy has lower numbers due to the design of the system's security. In fact, the number so far is zero. The system's hypervisor was recently exploited, but the possibility of running pirated games on the system is still far off since people would still have to get the system's encryption keys and deal with the improved protection of BD games over DVDs.

Besides, there are other advantages to modding a console aside from free games. In the case of the Wii, you can rip your collection to an external HDD and run them from there, giving you loading times superior to retail discs and eliminating the need to swap DVDs. I'm fine breaking a warranty or two to gain that functionality.... not to mention that it's pretty easy to clean up after yourself if you need to send it in for repairs.