[Bobboau]

inevitable thread

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/22/europe/brussels-explosions/

looks like it's gonna be one of those days

[0rph3u5]

Bobboau, I hope you were trying to avoid sensationalizing the events that happened in Bruessels, including the death of at least 21 people, with that topic headline ...

To me this is another one hitting close to a friend's home/workplace, so you will excuse me from this discussion while I disapprove of your dry fatalism...

[Grizzly]

I do think that the Gaurdian has the best response (or atleast the best one in english) thus far.
None of my relatives appear to be affected, which is good news.

[The E]

I think you messed up the link there.

[Luis Dias]

I'm wary of "best responses" when the corpses aren't even dry yet, sorry if I'm being blunt. But if you want to check the worst responses, just google what the Donald just said some minutes ago.

[Bobboau]

"Donald"
I don't think I want that this early in the morning...

@0rph3u5: You are excused. I have known people killed in this **** too, no one close fortunately but I am more than aware that is real people dieing. "dry fatalism" yeah, I'll accept that. that's fair.

[Grizzly]

I think you messed up the link there.

Fixed. Sorry!

I'm wary of "best responses" when the corpses aren't even dry yet, sorry if I'm being blunt. But if you want to check the worst responses, just google what the Donald just said some minutes ago.

Well, the Gaurdian's response is basically "Please don't be like Trump", which does seem like the best course of action at this point.

[Bobboau]

OK, what did Trump say? I looked at his twitter and all I saw was him talking about how Brussels used to be great or something? That can't be what you all are referring to, that's way too tame.

[edit]oh wait, was it this?[/edit]

[666maslo666]

I do think that the Gaurdian has the best response (or atleast the best one in english) thus far.
None of my relatives appear to be affected, which is good news.

That article tries hard to pretend that nothing can be done about this terrorism. Which is partially true - the amount of security measures needed to prevent such homegrown incidents would require a total police state, if it is even possible. But there is a catch, an elephant in the room - these attacks are not committed by native Europeans, but overwhelmingly by muslim immigrants or their children! These attacks would actually not be happening if not for very liberal past immigration policies of western Europe. Which allowed the rise of a significant muslim minority serving as a breeding ground for terrorism and religious extremism. Consequently, immigration policy is where the solution to this problem lies. So the best course of action is indeed to be somewhat more like Trump - not as much as to support torture and blanket ban on muslims, but tightening the immigration policy is a very good idea. And it wouldnt even restrict the rights of the citizens as much as increased security measures would.

[Bobboau]

I know it's the elephant in the room, but could we wait until the second page this time? I mean I more or less agree with you, but the predictability of this ****, including the meta, is getting old.

also, I like how they bombed the people waiting in the security line. no way to protect against that, and I've been waiting for one of these groups to go after that for just this reason.

[NGTM-1R]

Or at least, you know, point out a reliable source that these folks were what you claim they are. I haven't seen CNN or even Fox confirm ethnicity of the attackers yet.

More to the point banging on past policies and complaining about muslims isn't going to solve the problems at hand. If these people are a problem on their integration, and the resources are lacking to either stop them doing this or ship them all somewhere else, you've got to figure out how to integrate them better.

[Bobboau]

you too

[Galemp]

Radical Islam is waging war against the West. Whether sent from the middle east, trained domestically, or self-radicalized, this is the true face of the war on terror, and the war OF terror.

We cannot win this war with weapons. No force of tanks or aircraft carriers is going to stop these events; indeed, each jihadist killed is a martyr to their cause.

We need to fight ideology with ideology of our own. Challenge their ideas with our own, respond to their words with our own. If western civilization is worth defending, then it needs to stand on its merits and show its strengths. Silencing opposition is avoiding the confrontation.

If people want to blow themselves up, threatening them with death will do nothing to dissuade them. What we need to do is to convince them not to; not to address the violence, but to address the motivation to cause violence. Anything else feeds into their narrative, diminishes our own ideology, and spurs the cycle.

[Unknown Target]

Violence is the weapon of the ignorant, education is the only solution.

[NGTM-1R]

I love Foundation too but let's not pretend it's a valid political philosophy.

Violence is a tool with poor long-term effectiveness, though for short-term problems it can be quite efficacious.

[Grizzly]

I do think that the Gaurdian has the best response (or atleast the best one in english) thus far.
None of my relatives appear to be affected, which is good news.

That article tries hard to pretend that nothing can be done about this terrorism. Which is partially true - the amount of security measures needed to prevent such homegrown incidents would require a total police state, if it is even possible. But there is a catch, an elephant in the room - these attacks are not committed by native Europeans, but overwhelmingly by muslim immigrants or their children! These attacks would actually not be happening if not for very liberal past immigration policies of western Europe.

The issue with this is, as ever, that that the countries with the highest relative amount of radicalized muslims in Europe are Belgium and France, which are both countries which are rather decidedly un-liberal when it comes to the treatment of immigrants (esp. France, and it's questionable whether colonial subjects can be considered immigrants).

You are going to have to explain why Belgium has more then double the absolute amount of Jihadgoers in comparison to the Netherlands even though The Netherlands has three times as many immigrants then Belgium does (To the point that the amount of non-western immigrants in the Netherlands outranks the total amount of immigrants in Belgium). When you start looking at the relative values instead of the absolute ones, the differences are fairly massive.

This is not something that can be explained trough the amount of immigrants in a country.

[GhylTarvoke]

If people want to blow themselves up, threatening them with death will do nothing to dissuade them. What we need to do is to convince them not to; not to address the violence, but to address the motivation to cause violence. Anything else feeds into their narrative, diminishes our own ideology, and spurs the cycle.

Exactly how do you convince radicals not to blow themselves up? An earthly argument won't sway someone who only cares about the afterlife.

Even if you make a theological argument, you probably have less authority than, say, the leader of ISIS (who allegedly has a PhD in Islamic studies).

[Grizzly]

One can prevent people from radicalising. It is not an inborn trait, even if some politicians say otherwise.

[Bobboau]

We have christian radicals who blow **** up in the US, how would you stop Islamic radicals in the mid east?

[Grizzly]

We have christian radicals who blow **** up in the US, how would you stop Islamic radicals in the mid east?

I'd say that's the wrong question to start with. Rather: How did the situation in the US degrade to the point that christian radicals came into existence? What is the driving force behind Trump's rise to promincence? That sorta thing.

And at the moment I'd say that the problem is less stopping Islamic radicals in the mid east but rahter looking at why the Dutch have done a far better job at preventing their muslim population from radicalizing then the Belgians have.