[karajorma]

Who's making excuses? I was saying the race angle is distracting from the actual problem of police brutality.

You were also claiming the race angle doesn't actually exist.

[Bobboau]

1) Those are not mutually exclusive positions.
2) That is not arguing in favor of doing nothing or accepting innocent people getting killed by idiot cops who feel and effectivly are above the law.

[Luis Dias]

MP Ryan's angle is likely an order of magnitude less potent than anything that is being described by the mainstream media and what is going on in any social media and certain hashtag movements...

Again, MP claims some people here are making "excuses". I flat out stated that racism is indeed a part of the issue, but clearly it's far less of one than everyone implies. I also see people saying the police is being too brutal and so on. Well, apart from some clear examples of these things, most things that got people riled up are actually much more ambiguous.

I do wonder. I do think, speculating here without much analytical considerations (so burn me at the stake at will here), that most of the problems in America is due to the gun culture. Cops are incredibly afraid in many situations and they feel they have to kill people just to keep on living. And blacks are excessively bad at this gun culture, with incredible percentages of them having unlicenced guns. Other countries are incredibly more blazé in these situations, for they never assume the people they encounter in weird situations are holding guns. Not so in the US of A.

Situations like these also happen all the time, but they are simply not reported (and where the **** are the videos of white people being shot by the police? Where the **** are those??):

[MP-Ryan]

First off, while statistics are useful in combination with the broader picture, throwing statistics as a reason BLM is out to lunch very much is making excuses, because the general point of BLM is to highlight the very real differences in police interactions with white people versus black people.  This is borne of both the quantitative and qualitative data on the subject.

Second, the "unlicensed gun" argument is a red herring.  The vast majority of firearms in the United States are unlicensed.  The United States is a country with ridiculously lax gun laws.  It is therefore unreasonable for police to both (1) act like the presence of a gun is at all unusual when interacting with anyone, and (2) immediately resort to deadly force when a black person happens to have any sort of weapon anywhere near them (or, as my last post showed, even when they don't).  Compare and contrast:  a band of armed yokels take over federal land and buildings in the western United States and sit there POINTING GUNS AT FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.  The only one that ultimately dies is one idiot in a traffic stop.  Philandro Castille is pulled over for the umpteenth time for the crime of 'driving while black' and is immediately shot after telling the officer he has a legal firearm in his vehicle.

There are two differences:
1.  Federal law enforcement training in tactics and use of force in the US is light-years beyond local-yokel police detachments.
2.  The first group were while citizens taking armed political action contrary to the law.  The second individual was a black guy going about his business while obeying the law.

This **** is why BLM, even with its minority of over-exuberant members, its radicals, and its plain-bat-****-crazies is still important.  There is a systemic bias in law enforcement interactions with minorities, particularly black people, in the United States, one which isn't borne out the same way anywhere else. One of the reasons why BLM is exceedingly vocal is precisely because more passive approaches don't work; US history more than bears that out.

[Bobboau]

You know... it's funny.
I go to blacklivesmatter.com and I see a big'ole "What We Believe" link to click on.
What do I see?
"Globalism" - normally that's some far right buzz word scare name, but they ware it loud and proud.
"Collective Value" - oh, so BLM is a collectivist movement, interesting.
"Transgender Affirming" - I guess if you decide to have the right kind of cosmetic surgery it makes you Honorary African.
"Black Women" - in spite of the fact that it's almost(?) entirely black men who are getting shot by cops
"Queer Affirming" - I guess all the black men were queer?
"Black Villages" - "We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure"

I notice a whole lot of extra baggage here that has absolutely nothing to do with "highlight(ing) the very real differences in police interactions with white people versus black people". What I see looks a lot more like some sort of weird psudo-marxist revolutionary group that has decided to use race as a stand in for economic class and that race is a good fracture point to apply pressure to in order to help destroy this horrid bourgeois white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.

It really don't look like it's about police.

[Turambar]

Looks like they have that Occupy Wall Street problem where any jerk can say they're BLM, make an ass of themselves, and make the whole movement look bad as a result.

But I am just some guy who thinks that the penalty for a jumpy cop shouldn't be death, so who cares what I think.

[MP-Ryan]

I notice a whole lot of extra baggage here that has absolutely nothing to do with "highlight(ing) the very real differences in police interactions with white people versus black people". What I see looks a lot more like some sort of weird psudo-marxist revolutionary group that has decided to use race as a stand in for economic class and that race is a good fracture point to apply pressure to in order to help destroy this horrid bourgeois white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.

It really don't look like it's about police.

So fine, criticize the moment on that.  Hell, I criticized it a fair bit several weeks ago when BLM in both Toronto and Vancouver made demands that Pride celebrations in both communities remove official police floats because it made them feel unsafe to have official police presence.  My point here is not that BLM is a saintly movement immune from criticism, it's that the notion that black people do not face considerable unjustified and disproportionate use of force from police in the United States is distinctly out to lunch.

[Bobboau]

Related to current line of discussion:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37502136

[Bobboau]

I honestly don't know what to think of this story.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-fan-arrested-soldier-field-bears-game-met-20161003-story.html
Man in a gorilla suit rushes the field of a professional football game with "all lives matter" on the front of a tee shirt he had on over the suit, the thing that makes it confusing is he was black and had "put down the guns" on the back. Was he mocking opponents of BLM or was he mocking BLM while supporting the actual problem of police brutality? I honestly can't tell what side he's on. Maybe that was his point?

[Turambar]

Sounds like it was a tribute to Harambe

[Bobboau]

b-but I thought Harambe was a meme and crafted by the hacker known as 4chon and therefore white supremacist capitalism right wing <?=$incoherent_buzzword[4]?>? and he's black and black people are physically incapable of being racist?

[Luis Dias]

Forget Harambe, Pepe is the true malignant of this world, a symbol of HATRED, HATRED I tells ya. Just look at that frog and try to not shudder and tremble with horror.

[Bobboau]

Yeah, th-that's what I was referencing.

[Luis Dias]

I wonder, when is Kermit going to be taken by the Left to battle against the Pepe in the right?

This idea is so awesome I'm pretty sure someone must have beaten me to this several times.

[Turambar]

If i could delete either hilldawg's email scandals, or that post they made about pepe from existence, i'd delete the post.

[Luis Dias]

Good choice. You know the priorities!

[Bobboau]

I personally would delete everything she did in regard to Syria.

[perihelion]

By "delete" I think you mean "undo," Bob.

Dear God, what a nightmare.

[Bryan See]

Me too.

My experience with the alt-right is nothing new, when I first interacted with Wikipedia back in 2004, at a time, I don't know that WP is taken over by trolls of the alt-right from the start, as Larry Sanger said last November. They made Wikipedia too much power, and makes it suffering from page ownership - that's one of the reasons why we don't donate to WP.

And I wonder: Are they pro-Moscow? Have they got money from Russia? Have they admired Vladimir Putin? Are they affiliated with Breitbart and Steve Bannon?

[Bobboau]

some of them are. honestly alt-right is a fairly useless term, it basically means everyone who is non-establishment right wing. half of them hate the other half.the only thing they agree on if **** the cuckservitives.