Poll

In an all out war (WITHOUT the Flood), who do you think would win?  If you think two factions would join forces, feel free to select them.

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Covenant
GTVA
Shivans

Author Topic: HALO vs FreeSpace  (Read 68352 times)

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Offline Marcov

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They seem immune to diseases, though. Would you imagine a Shivan having colds?

[Citation Needed]

Find proof, and it might have a leg to stand on.  Until then, it's safer to assume they can be infected.

It's equally unsafe that a Shivan may or may not be infected, since we both can't find any proofs.

Besides, how are the Flood supposed to infect them? Crawl inside their ships (which is utterly impossible)?
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline General Battuta

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The Shivans are actually a fusion of biological and technological components.

So this means they can be infected by the Flood?

They seem immune to diseases, though. Would you imagine a Shivan having colds?

Absolutely no evidence of that one way or another.

Besides, how are the Flood supposed to infect them? Crawl inside their ships (which is utterly impossible)?

Presumably the Flood would start with some Terrans or Vasudans, make use of their technology and ships (adapting and enhancing them, as they always do), board a Shivan vessel, and proceed from there.

Once a Gravemind was online and Shivan forms were incorporated into it it'd all be downhill from there,

 

Offline Marcov

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Presumably the Flood would start with some Terrans or Vasudans, make use of their technology and ships (adapting and enhancing them, as they always do), board a Shivan vessel, and proceed from there.

Once a Gravemind was online and Shivan forms were incorporated into it it'd all be downhill from there,


Lol, generally Shivans refuse boarding missions. They'd beam the transport right away to bits.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline General Battuta

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Presumably the Flood would start with some Terrans or Vasudans, make use of their technology and ships (adapting and enhancing them, as they always do), board a Shivan vessel, and proceed from there.

Once a Gravemind was online and Shivan forms were incorporated into it it'd all be downhill from there,


Lol, generally Shivans refuse boarding missions. They'd beam the transport right away to bits.

Explain Hallfight to me.

Go ahead. Explain away the canonical boarding of a Shivan vessel by Terrans.

 

Offline Marcov

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Explain Hallfight to me.

Go ahead. Explain away the canonical boarding of a Shivan vessel by Terrans.

That was an Azrael, which had three useless tiny turrets.

We're talking about a crusier or above, which had anti-fighter beams that could rape anything that gets close to it, including transports.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline General Battuta

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Explain Hallfight to me.

Go ahead. Explain away the canonical boarding of a Shivan vessel by Terrans.

That was an Azrael, which had three useless tiny turrets.

We're talking about a crusier or above, which had anti-fighter beams that could rape anything that gets close to it, including transports.

Why are we talking about a cruiser or above?

Explain the capture of the Taranis.

Even given that, do you know how easy it is to disable and disarm a cruiser, corvette, or destroyer? We're not talking tough stuff here.

You've already given up on your original notion that boarding actions are impossible. Don't pull the stealthy retreat crap; concede your points transparently.

There is not a ship in the FreeSpace universe that would be particularly hard to board, Shivans included.

(And even so, this is totally irrelevant: there are Shivans on an Azrael, and the question here is whether the Flood could get to them. Your 'cruiser+' argument is both faulty and tangential.)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 01:06:17 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Marcov

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Why are we talking about a cruiser or above?

Explain the capture of the Taranis.

Even given that, do you know how easy it is to disable and disarm a cruiser, corvette, or destroyer? We're not talking tough stuff here.

You've already given up on your original notion that boarding actions are impossible. Don't pull the stealthy retreat crap; concede your points transparently.

There is not a ship in the FreeSpace universe that would be particularly hard to board, Shivans included.

(And even so, this is totally irrelevant: there are Shivans on an Azrael, and the question here is whether the Flood could get to them. Your 'cruiser+' argument is both faulty and tangential.)

Sure. It's easy to disable a corvette or a destroyer. But not easy to board it, considering it has enough armament to pulverize the boarding party. Also, if the Flood DOES board a corvette/cruiser/destroyer, then the Shivans will just destroy it, just like what they did with the Taranis.

You do NOT think that the Flood can infect the whole Sath fleet, do you? Cause if they infected EVERY SINGLE SHIP in the GTVA AND SHIVAN ARMADA, they still wouldn't be able to board a hundred juggernauts (rounded off).

Wait, are you expressing the fact that the Shivans can be infected, or that the Flood can defeat the Shivans?
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline Scotty

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Read the Halo books please.  The flood infected the city ship High Charity, a very substantial portion of the Covenant fleet, at least two Halo rings, the Ark, and at least two Human ships (Pillar of Autumn and In Amber Clad)and New Mombasa.

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You do NOT think that the Flood can infect the whole Sath fleet, do you? Cause if they infected EVERY SINGLE SHIP in the GTVA AND SHIVAN ARMADA, they still wouldn't be able to board a hundred juggernauts (rounded off).

You seem to be laboring under the impression that: 1) There are comparatively few ships in the GTVA/Shivan armada.  We never see the extent of either.  For a bit of a canon perspective, the Bakha, a relatively uncommon bomber, has had over six thousand craft produced.  Ponder that for a moment.  2) It takes many ships to board a Juggernaut.  it takes two wings of bombers to completely disable one, played correctly.  See the above.  Six thousand.  3) The boarding ship has to survive the process.  It doesn't.  It takes one infection form and a few seconds to doom entire ships.

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Sure. It's easy to disable a corvette or a destroyer. But not easy to board it, considering it has enough armament to pulverize the boarding party. Also, if the Flood DOES board a corvette/cruiser/destroyer, then the Shivans will just destroy it, just like what they did with the Taranis.

That'd be great... if you knew it was infected.  Side note:  If you can disable it, you can disarm it.  There's even a wingman order to that effect.  Thirty turrets would take about five minutes for a couple wings of fighters.

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Wait, are you expressing the fact that the Shivans can be infected, or that the Flood can defeat the Shivans?

Both.  If the former is true, the latter becomes certain.

 

Offline Marcov

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Read the Halo books please.  The flood infected the city ship High Charity, a very substantial portion of the Covenant fleet, at least two Halo rings, the Ark, and at least two Human ships (Pillar of Autumn and In Amber Clad)and New Mombasa.

How exactly did they do that?

You seem to be laboring under the impression that: 1) There are comparatively few ships in the GTVA/Shivan armada.  We never see the extent of either.  For a bit of a canon perspective, the Bakha, a relatively uncommon bomber, has had over six thousand craft produced.  Ponder that for a moment.  2) It takes many ships to board a Juggernaut.  it takes two wings of bombers to completely disable one, played correctly.  See the above.  Six thousand.  3) The boarding ship has to survive the process.  It doesn't.  It takes one infection form and a few seconds to doom entire ships.

If they had that large of a force, why was the GTVA so damn scared of the Shivan armada? And, lol, the Shivans can just "beam" the Flood to bits - hold them off with a bunch of Shivans, and have one Shivan wait at the back, charging its beam, and fire at the Flood (like what it did in Hallfight).

Plus, didn't the Juggernauts each possess a fighter complement of around 200? They can just summon a crapload of fighters to destroy the Flood attackers, and the fighters attempting to disable its beams (which didn't happen in Bearbaiting, most likely for game balancing reasons).
BTW, since I'm too lazy to read Halopedia, how exactly do the Flood capture entire ships in seconds?

That'd be great... if you knew it was infected.  Side note:  If you can disable it, you can disarm it.  There's even a wingman order to that effect.  Thirty turrets would take about five minutes for a couple wings of fighters.

But the Shivans would pretty much already know that it was hostile - like what they did with the Taranis.

Both.  If the former is true, the latter becomes certain.

If the former is true, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Flood can defeat the Shivans outright. For example, a virus can cause you colds, but will you die afterward? No. Your immune system can handle it. You CAN be infected, but you won't die.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline The E

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Dude.....Are you honestly trying to debate in a Universe vs Universe thread without knowing the universes involved?

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If they had that large of a force, why was the GTVA so damn scared of the Shivan armada? And, lol, the Shivans can just "beam" the Flood to bits - hold them off with a bunch of Shivans, and have one Shivan wait at the back, charging its beam, and fire at the Flood (like what it did in Hallfight).

Plus, didn't the Juggernauts each possess a fighter complement of around 200? They can just summon a crapload of fighters to destroy the Flood attackers, and the fighters attempting to disable its beams (which didn't happen in Bearbaiting, most likely for game balancing reasons).

Ever heard of a little thing called tactics? You cannot postulate a general strategy and claim it would be effective all the time.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Marcov

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Dude.....Are you honestly trying to debate in a Universe vs Universe thread without knowing the universes involved?

I don't exactly know much about Haloverse, but I've seen several Halo games being played.

Ever heard of a little thing called tactics? You cannot postulate a general strategy and claim it would be effective all the time.

Errr...what tactics? Seriously I'm tired of guys claiming that I've made a senseless statement when they can't technically disprove my ideas anyway.

So, will you please enumerate?

Plus, whose side are you on anyway? Wait. Whose side are you, General Battuta, and Scotty on? Are you just expressing that "Halo can beat FS in some aspects, so that's what I'm gonna debate on, but overall this debate is ridiculous so officialy I won't pick any sides"? What??

Or maybe you really aren't serious, you're just trying to prove and disprove others' comments at times, but are delibaretely washing your assess off the debate, cause you're not officialy picking any sides anyway?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 05:06:13 am by Marcov »
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline The E

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Okay, details. You say that the winning strategy for the Shivans would be to have a few guys stand back and have one guy beaming the attackers to bits. What happens when they're getting flanked? Not to mention that the Flood is transmitted as a disease, which means that exploding hosts is the last thing you want next to you.

Second, you claim a Sathanas' fighter complement would protect it all the time. I have to ask you, did the US military protect the US from the pig flu? The Flood is a sentient disease, NOT a conventional enemy. It's a whole different ballgame, played with different rules.

Third, there are so many scenarios that can be dreamt up for a Flood infestation that everything hinges on the question whether or not the Flood can infect the Shivans. There is no canon information about that, hence there are no statements we can make about it either way.

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Plus, whose side are you on anyway? Wait. Whose side are you, General Battuta, and Scotty on? Are you just expressing that "Halo can beat FS in some aspects, so that's what I'm gonna debate on, but overall this debate is ridiculous so officialy I won't pick any sides"? What??

Or maybe you really aren't serious, you're just trying to prove and disprove others' comments at times, but are delibaretely washing your assess off the debate, cause you're not officialy picking any sides anyway?

Can't speak for the others, but personally, I am on the side of a good debate. The subject matter here is patently ridiculous, so the debating style becomes ever more important (and really the only interesting thing here).
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Marcov

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Okay, details. You say that the winning strategy for the Shivans would be to have a few guys stand back and have one guy beaming the attackers to bits. What happens when they're getting flanked? Not to mention that the Flood is transmitted as a disease, which means that exploding hosts is the last thing you want next to you.

Assuming that other ships have the same style as the Azrael, with a corridor-like structure, it would be impossible for the Flood to actually "flank" the Shivans. Also, the beam weapon the Shivan used seems to utterly disintegrate an object to some kind of "particle effect", meaning that the Flood would be disintegrated, instead of exploding in a dirty disease spread.

Quote
Second, you claim a Sathanas' fighter complement would protect it all the time. I have to ask you, did the US military protect the US from the pig flu? The Flood is a sentient disease, NOT a conventional enemy. It's a whole different ballgame, played with different rules.

But that can't spread around different ships, then. Shivans are strictly a spaceborne species: as far as we know, they "live" in their ships.

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Third, there are so many scenarios that can be dreamt up for a Flood infestation that everything hinges on the question whether or not the Flood can infect the Shivans. There is no canon information about that, hence there are no statements we can make about it either way.

As for me, I find it near impossible for the Flood to successfully render Shivans as hosts. They're a fusion of biology and technology - how can a disease affect a half cybernetic being? So, maybe the Shivan will die, but the Flood can't use its corpse and turn it into part of their forces.

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Can't speak for the others, but personally, I am on the side of a good debate. The subject matter here is patently ridiculous, so the debating style becomes ever more important (and really the only interesting thing here).

So, which side are you on - FreeSpace, or Halo?
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline The E

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Assuming that other ships have the same style as the Azrael, with a corridor-like structure, it would be impossible for the Flood to actually "flank" the Shivans. Also, the beam weapon the Shivan used seems to utterly disintegrate an object to some kind of "particle effect", meaning that the Flood would be disintegrated, instead of exploding in a dirty disease spread.

You still have Shivan troops in close quarters combat. Every time that happens, there's a risk of infection. You still have Flood on your ship, infecting your air circulation.

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But that can't spread around different ships, then. Shivans are strictly a spaceborne species: as far as we know, they "live" in their ships.

What about this. Flood infects Transport. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone!

Quote
As for me, I find it near impossible for the Flood to successfully render Shivans as hosts. They're a fusion of biology and technology - how can a disease affect a half cybernetic being? So, maybe the Shivan will die, but the Flood can't use its corpse and turn it into part of their forces.
You have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.

Quote
So, which side are you on - FreeSpace, or Halo?
Malcolm Reynolds.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Qent

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Plus, whose side are you on anyway?
I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.

 

Offline Marcov

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You still have Shivan troops in close quarters combat. Every time that happens, there's a risk of infection. You still have Flood on your ship, infecting your air circulation.

Lol. You could always beam them to death from a far range. Seriously, if you could beat the crap out of the Flood as a marine, being much more biological than a Shivan, how can Shivans lose against the Flood?

Quote
What about this. Flood infects Transport. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone!

What about this. Sathanas launches fighters and terminate the transport 4 clicks from the Sath with Trebuchets. Fun time for everyone!

Quote
You have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.

FreeSpace wiki, of course.  :wtf:
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Malcolm Reynolds.

Sorry, not an option. Pick again.

Plus, whose side are you on anyway?
I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.

The only time I ever showed a sign of conjecture was when I said that Shivans wouldn't probably defect to the Flood, since they're half-cybernetic.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:21:19 am by Marcov »
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Think back to Halo, what did the flood have? Numbers. That's how they'll get you, mate.

 

Offline Marcov

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Think back to Halo, what did the flood have? Numbers. That's how they'll get you, mate.

...unless they're beamed. :lol:
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline Qent

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The only time I ever showed a sign of conjecture was when I said that Shivans wouldn't probably defect to the Flood, since they're half-cybernetic.
And that's a big problem, since nearly all you've said is conjecture.

 

Offline Scotty

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You still have Shivan troops in close quarters combat. Every time that happens, there's a risk of infection. You still have Flood on your ship, infecting your air circulation.

Lol. You could always beam them to death from a far range. Seriously, if you could beat the crap out of the Flood as a marine, being much more biological than a Shivan, how can Shivans lose against the Flood?

I repeat:  Have you read the Halo books?  Unless you now prove otherwise, I am going to be forced to assume you know exactly zero about how the Flood works.  When you play as John in the Halo games, take a good look at the Marines around you.  They have a bad habit of dying and becoming more Flood.  It happens with stressing regularity, assuming you've actually got friendlies in the area.  If you'd listen to the in-game radio chatter, you'd hear the wails and shrieks of complete and utter terror as Marine outposts are overrun in seconds.  Am I being clear at all?  In close combat, the Flood wins, especially in confined ships quarters.

Quote
What about this. Flood infects Transport. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone!

What about this. Sathanas launches fighters and terminate the transport 4 clicks from the Sath with Trebuchets. Fun time for everyone!

What about this.  Sathanas doesn't know that transport is infected.  Infected Transport docks with Sath.  Sath gets infected.  Fun time for everyone.

Quote
You have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.

FreeSpace wiki, of course.  :wtf:

No, you don't have a source for that, because anything Halo-verse-ish has never been encountered in FreeSpace.  We do not know if they can be infected.  Seeing as they are at least semi-biological, I'm going with yes.  Prove me wrong.

Plus, whose side are you on anyway?
I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.

The only time I ever showed a sign of conjecture was when I said that Shivans wouldn't probably defect to the Flood, since they're half-cybernetic.

And when you said the Shivans would just beam everything to death, because they're obviously the next best thing to omnipotent in that regard.  Oh, and when you said that it's impossible for the Flood to board a hundred Juggernauts.  Or when you said, of all things, that Shivans would win against a disease in close combat.