[Dragon]

Yeah. TBH, I've had a feeling that we were, at some point, going to get a huge reveal that she is somehow related to the Luke, Leia or someone else that we know. Of course, the movie leaves us hanging, but that's not the only plot point with which it's done. I think she's only a Mary Sue if she doesn't have a good reason to be this powerful. I hope this does come up in the later movies, because it really seems like it should.

As for the lightsaber fight, not only was Kylo Ren shot (this probably interfered with his Force powers more than with fencing skill), but he was obviously a crappy fencer with a weapon unsuited for him. If you look at the scene, he's swinging that lightsaber like a club, trying to get Rey through brute force (something he's lacking at the moment). His weapon resembles a claymore, which can be fenced with, but this requires skill that he obviously doesn't have.

[Luis Dias]

The reason why Rey being a Mary Sue isn't a bothersome problem in the movie is because she isn't arrogant about it and hovering above everyone else around her. She's just trying to cope with whatever nightmare is befalling her and her acting is sufficiently good to put ourselves in her place of terror, despite her qualities.

For contrast, watch first episodes of Voyager and shriek in disgust on captain Janeway's version of what "Mary Sue" can imply.

[Akalabeth Angel]

There is also the fact that Kylo had recently been hit in the leg by a boltcaster which has been shown multiple times to launch stormtroopers at will, so Kylo taking that hit with an outward response along the lines of "bugger, that is going to be a problem" I would suggest is causing him more problem than he is letting on

If it's not in the film, it didn't happen.
Could be mistaken but I don't recall any moment where his injury really inhibits his ability to fight. The direction instead is to portray him as a psychopath as he repeatedly punches his own blaster wound.

Yeah. TBH, I've had a feeling that we were, at some point, going to get a huge reveal that she is somehow related to the Luke, Leia or someone else that we know. Of course, the movie leaves us hanging, but that's not the only plot point with which it's done. I think she's only a Mary Sue if she doesn't have a good reason to be this powerful. I hope this does come up in the later movies, because it really seems like it should.

Rey is most likely either Luke or Leia's daughter.  What would be the point of hiding who her parents are if they're not someone already in the film?
Though knowing JJ Abrams, it's not unlikely that he'll try a "clever twist"/feint of hand which turns out to be actually pretty stupid. Like trying to fool the audience into believing Benedict Cumberbatch is Gary Mitchell when in fact he was just stupid Khan. "The clever twist is that I'm really doing the dumb, low hanging fruit thing that everyone thought I'd do"

[headdie]

Rey is most likely either Luke or Leia's daughter.  What would be the point of hiding who her parents are if they're not someone already in the film?
Though knowing JJ Abrams, it's not unlikely that he'll try a "clever twist"/feint of hand which turns out to be actually pretty stupid. Like trying to fool the audience into believing Benedict Cumberbatch is Gary Mitchell when in fact he was just stupid Khan. "The clever twist is that I'm really doing the dumb, low hanging fruit thing that everyone thought I'd do"

If Ray isnt Luke's daughter.... Lets just say I will be extremely supprised

[Dragon]

Though knowing JJ Abrams, it's not unlikely that he'll try a "clever twist"/feint of hand which turns out to be actually pretty stupid. Like trying to fool the audience into believing Benedict Cumberbatch is Gary Mitchell when in fact he was just stupid Khan. "The clever twist is that I'm really doing the dumb, low hanging fruit thing that everyone thought I'd do"

If JJ Abrams was directing the next movie you could have a point. He isn't, though. Someone else will take over for the next one (forgot the name, but it's known already).

[Akalabeth Angel]

Though knowing JJ Abrams, it's not unlikely that he'll try a "clever twist"/feint of hand which turns out to be actually pretty stupid. Like trying to fool the audience into believing Benedict Cumberbatch is Gary Mitchell when in fact he was just stupid Khan. "The clever twist is that I'm really doing the dumb, low hanging fruit thing that everyone thought I'd do"

If JJ Abrams was directing the next movie you could have a point. He isn't, though. Someone else will take over for the next one (forgot the name, but it's known already).

He's executive producer and is likely still involved in the creative process to some degree, or the second film may be following his initial story outline. He brought on Rian Johnson, during Episode VII to ensure a "smooth transition".  And given the success of Episode VII, if Abrams did put down a roadmap, is Disney likely to abandon it?

I hope they at least get rid of Greg Grunberg for Episode VIII, don't need Abram's cronyism marring another film with that out-of-place goofball.

[NGTM-1R]

Sidenote, point nobody's made yet: This movie makes its energy weapons feel surprisingly powerful. When we see blaster fire hit things, the results are usually more impressive than if we were watching an equivalently sized modern weapon at work. Chewie's bowcaster is an obvious example but even basic blasters show surprising destructive potential; Poe's X-wing being grounded by a hit on exposed machinery, the hits on the Falcon's hide producing surprisingly significant blasts though they don't penetrate, the firing of the TIE's cannons in the hanger and the X-Wing's cannons in CAS making big messes of things.

Blasters feel like more dangerous weapons now, and less like kid-friendly versions of firearms.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Yes and no.
A blast from an X-wing's cannon only made some stormtroopers fall down with a little mark on their chest whereas a proper shot from a fighter should  probably dismember a guy like C3PO was in Empire.

And while blaster bolts made quick work of Poe's X-Wing, they were also remarkably ineffective against the Tie Fighter in the hangar just a few minutes later when a dozen guys were shooting at Finn and Poe.

[NGTM-1R]

And while blaster bolts made quick work of Poe's X-Wing, they were also remarkably ineffective against the Tie Fighter in the hangar just a few minutes later when a dozen guys were shooting at Finn and Poe.

You have trouble with concepts like exposed machinery, I see.

[Scotty]

Or shields.  Poe was still bringing them up, the TIE was already shielded.

[Akalabeth Angel]

And while blaster bolts made quick work of Poe's X-Wing, they were also remarkably ineffective against the Tie Fighter in the hangar just a few minutes later when a dozen guys were shooting at Finn and Poe.

You have trouble with concepts like exposed machinery, I see.

No, just faulty arguments.

Or shields.  Poe was still bringing them up, the TIE was already shielded.

What evidence is there that the TIE was shielded?
In aerial combat over the smuggler world Poe was able to destroy 5-6 TIE fighters in quick succession.  The rapidity at which he took them down suggests they don't have shields. This also occurred early in the fight when the TIE Fighters would have been fresh and undamaged.



JJ Abrams world of Star Wars is entirely inconsistent.
Hand guns destroy X-Wings in a couple of shots, but don't do the same with TIE Fighters. X-Wings blaster bolts tear apart TIE Fighters in one or two hits but do minimal (albeit lethal) damage against Stormtroopers, stormtroopers which are thrown by Bowcaster shots, a weapon which later causes only a small wound and no knockback against Kylo Ren (especially at a time when any knockback would be lethal).

Basically all weapons are powered by plot. They behave differently in various situations as the plot demands. And this lack of consistency lends itself to a less believable world.

[Scotty]

And while blaster bolts made quick work of Poe's X-Wing, they were also remarkably ineffective against the Tie Fighter in the hangar just a few minutes later when a dozen guys were shooting at Finn and Poe.

You have trouble with concepts like exposed machinery, I see.

No, just faulty arguments.

Or shields.  Poe was still bringing them up, the TIE was already shielded.

What evidence is there that the TIE was shielded?
In aerial combat over the smuggler world Poe was able to destroy 5-6 TIE fighters in quick succession.


JJ Abrams world of Star Wars is entirely inconsistent.
Hand guns destroy X-Wings in a couple of shots, but don't do the same with TIE Fighters. X-Wings blaster bolts tear apart TIE Fighters in one or two hits but do minimal (albeit lethal) damage against Stormtroopers, stormtroopers which are thrown by Boltcaster (or whatever its called) shots, a weapon which later only cause a small wound against Kylo Ren.   

Basically all weapons are powered by plot. They behave differently in various situations as the plot demands. And this lack of consistency lends itself to a less believable world.

You have it backwards.  Poe's X-wing is not in flight, and is still unpowered when it is struck and disabled by a direct hit to the rear of the ship.  The TIE Fighter was already up and flying by the time anything was even remotely close to shooting at it.  We're told that these shields exist later in the movie, and that it took a bit for the shields to go up on the Falcon during Rey and Finn's escape.  Why wouldn't the TIE have shields?

(and this is leaving aside that TIE/fo fighters have shields in the X-wing miniatures game and in the Episode VII visual dictionary, so in this case I'm arguing from a position of definitive fact, just backing it up with evidence you can pick up from the movie and only the movie)

The bowcaster doesn't launch Kylo Ren from the catwalk because that'd be a really ****ty way to end the movie, and then we'd be hearing you complain about that instead.  It's established deliberately and repeatedly that it packs a serious punch, and your immediate interpretation when the big bad is shot and keeps going is that it's wildly inconsistent?  Not that "wow, he took a hell of a shot and kept going!" or "Damn, that had to ****ing hurt, no wonder he lost the fight after."?

If you don't like it, that's too bad, but your hatred for this movie is well-established in its immunity to reason by now, so maybe you should just stop talking about it if it's all you've got to contribute.

[NGTM-1R]

No, just faulty arguments.

It's literally shot in the only place where there's exposed machinery on the fighter, the rear center. Poe actually goes back and looks at the damage to confirm this.

The only faulty argument here is yours. Physician, heal thyself.

[Akalabeth Angel]

What evidence is there that the TIE was shielded?
In aerial combat over the smuggler world Poe was able to destroy 5-6 TIE fighters in quick succession.

JJ Abrams world of Star Wars is entirely inconsistent.
Hand guns destroy X-Wings in a couple of shots, but don't do the same with TIE Fighters. X-Wings blaster bolts tear apart TIE Fighters in one or two hits but do minimal (albeit lethal) damage against Stormtroopers, stormtroopers which are thrown by Boltcaster (or whatever its called) shots, a weapon which later only cause a small wound against Kylo Ren.   

Basically all weapons are powered by plot. They behave differently in various situations as the plot demands. And this lack of consistency lends itself to a less believable world.

You have it backwards.  Poe's X-wing is not in flight, and is still unpowered when it is struck and disabled by a direct hit to the rear of the ship.  The TIE Fighter was already up and flying by the time anything was even remotely close to shooting at it.  We're told that these shields exist later in the movie, and that it took a bit for the shields to go up on the Falcon during Rey and Finn's escape.  Why wouldn't the TIE have shields

I'm not arguing that the X-Wing isn't vulnerable.
Rather I'm examining the strength of the TIE Fighter throughout the movie. It's shown to be vulnerable to only one or two hits from an X-Wing. This very same X-wing is shown to have lethal, but otherwise minimal impact against ground-based targets. The damage that Po's fighter does to a stormtrooper is comparable in strength and impact to your regular blaster.  So if only one or two shots from an X-Wing are able to disintegrate a fully operational Tie Fighter, why then can a Tie Fighter which is suspended in mid-air (ie a sitting duck) survive the attacks of a dozen or more stormtroopers?

The bowcaster doesn't launch Kylo Ren from the catwalk because that'd be a really ****ty way to end the movie, and then we'd be hearing you complain about that instead.  It's established deliberately and repeatedly that it packs a serious punch, and your immediate interpretation when the big bad is shot and keeps going is that it's wildly inconsistent?  Not that "wow, he took a hell of a shot and kept going!" or "Damn, that had to ****ing hurt, no wonder he lost the fight after."?

Actually I didn't care about that incident at all. It's an example you've offered earlier in the thread that I'm using to further illustrate a core failing of inconsistency in the movie. Thank you for drawing my attention to it.

[Dragon]

The TIE was not a sitting duck, it wasn't "suspended in mid air" by any measure. It was flailing around wildly attached to a mooring cable. You try to hit something like that with any degree of accuracy (even in a regular unrealistic FPS, enemies which do that tend to be really frustrating to hit). IRL, it's quite plausible that if you fired a machine gun at something moving that fast and randomly, you wouldn't score a single hit. Besides, didn't Poe say he was bringing up the shields when trying to take off in it?

[Luis Dias]

I like Alakabeth's contributions. They are hilarious, besides of anything else!

[karajorma]

The reason why Rey being a Mary Sue isn't a bothersome problem in the movie is because she isn't arrogant about it and hovering above everyone else around her. She's just trying to cope with whatever nightmare is befalling her and her acting is sufficiently good to put ourselves in her place of terror, despite her qualities.

Yep, that mostly covers why I wasn't too upset with her in this film. Of course that does mean that she's rather vulnerable to becoming annoying in the second film by which point she probably will have had some training and might not just be reacting. It will take a lot of skill to write her character in the next film given what we've already established she's capable of. Or at least to do it without making her suddenly seem to have powered down.

[Akalabeth Angel]

The TIE was not a sitting duck, it wasn't "suspended in mid air" by any measure. It was flailing around wildly attached to a mooring cable. You try to hit something like that with any degree of accuracy (even in a regular unrealistic FPS, enemies which do that tend to be really frustrating to hit). IRL, it's quite plausible that if you fired a machine gun at something moving that fast and randomly, you wouldn't score a single hit. Besides, didn't Poe say he was bringing up the shields when trying to take off in it?

If Poe says he's bringing up the shields while still attached to the umbilical and before they leave the hangar great, if not, there's no rational in the movie for that ship not getting blown to pieces. A Tie Fighter is about 300m3 in volume and the troopers are about 30m away, the solar foils being about 48m2 each, it's irrational to assume that they couldn't land at least a couple of hits. And if Po doesn't specifically mention bringing up shields or if a diagram on his console doesn't convey the same information then there's no factual basis within the movie to assume it's any more durable than Po's Xwing beyond being a different make of craft. In that case, we examine other instances of the ship being destroyed in the movie and it proves in combat to be just as vulnerable to destruction as X-Wings are.

Don't forget that while the X-Wing was disabled by a couple of hits, it was also a few minutes later destroyed by only a couple more, which expresses the vulnerability of the craft as a whole not just the 'exposed wiring'.

[Lepanto]

Mr. Angel,

While we respect your right to dislike the movie and disagree with people here, I can safely say this conversation is going nowhere. Regardless of the validity of your arguments, you will not convince anyone else here to dislike Ep. VII as much as you do.

There must be some more positive and productive use of your time.


-------------
In other news, I liked the movie overall. I did feel it could've taken more time to slow down and breathe, rather than hurtling us from action sequence to action sequence, but it certainly kept a good clip. Definitely gave me that Star Wars feeling.

Finn was entertainingly adorkable, feeling the pressure of the situation he'd been thrust into. His character flaw of fear of the FO made sense, given that he was a janitor on their super superweapon, and he got over it without spending too much time angsting about it.

I'd like to see where Kylo Ren's arc will go in the next two films. Yeah, he's angsty, but he made a competent Dark Side villain. It was nice seeing him go from the menacing Darth Vader expy that he was at the beginning, to the conflicted young man he really was inside.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Mr. Angel,

While we respect your right to dislike the movie and disagree with people here, I can safely say this conversation is going nowhere. Regardless of the validity of your arguments, you will not convince anyone else here to dislike Ep. VII as much as you do.

There must be some more positive and productive use of your time.

Analyzing and discussing the quality of a complex piece of media IS a productive use of time.  And like Karajorma, Aesar and others who were similarly disappointed with the film I choose to discuss its merits here.  But I appreciate that your concerned, it's very altruistic of you.