[Phantom Hoover]

everything you have said in this thread, akalabeth, is ****ing useless

you are pathologically incapable of holding a discussion without deciding that this hill, this hill of star wars episode seven being an unredeemable piece of ****, is the hill that you want to die on

you resort to the worst kind of pedantic drivel to flagellate a film which, at its worst, was 'okay'

will you please just shut up, this thread was worthwhile while you were banned

[Scotty]

Even if that's what you think, PH, you need to phrase it a lot better to not get a warning for it.

Anyone who responds in kind (even you, Akalabeth) will also receive a warning.

[StarSlayer]

It would have been better if they had setup an e-web to disable the T70.  That said its the kind of issue most people who haven't memorized who Taim & Bak are will fret over.

[karajorma]

Finn was entertainingly adorkable, feeling the pressure of the situation he'd been thrust into. His character flaw of fear of the FO made sense, given that he was a janitor on their super superweapon, and he got over it without spending too much time angsting about it.

It always does make me wonder why on Earth the First Order would send a janitor on what is possibly their most important mission to date. My feeling is that someone misread Captain Phasma's mission briefing. They noticed that the briefing said that after they had regained the map they would sanitise the area and so they sent Finn along with a mop and bottle of Dettol.

It certainly would explain why he freaked the **** out so quickly the second he was in battle. He was expecting to do some cleaning and suddenly someone handed him a blaster and people started shooting at him.

[AdmiralRalwood]

He was a sanitation worker when he worked at Starkiller Base; he's obviously not by the time the movie starts.

[Akalabeth Angel]

He was a sanitation worker when he worked at Starkiller Base; he's obviously not by the time the movie starts.

He's obviously not battle-tested either if he cracked at the first sign of combat.

[Scotty]

He was a sanitation worker when he worked at Starkiller Base; he's obviously not by the time the movie starts.

He's obviously not battle-tested either if he cracked at the first sign of combat.

He literally says that to Rey, later in the movie.

Which is a non-issue, since real life is full of people breaking in their first combat.  Even in elite units.

[Akalabeth Angel]

He was a sanitation worker when he worked at Starkiller Base; he's obviously not by the time the movie starts.

He's obviously not battle-tested either if he cracked at the first sign of combat.

He literally says that to Rey, later in the movie.

Which is a non-issue, since real life is full of people breaking in their first combat.  Even in elite units.

It's an issue so far as "elite units" typically means "battle-tested".

Units gain elite status through successes and measurable results, not through battlefield training.  Veterans by definition are those that have seen combat, and typically the elite are the best of those veterans.  And I don't believe there's anything in the dialogue to suggest that Finn is a war-weary veteran.
 
That said I don't believe it's ever stated that the troops on the mission were actually elite.  KR and his cylon XO may have simply grabbed whoever was around. they're assaulting a defenseless village not a republic stronghold.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

It's an issue so far as "elite units" typically means "battle-tested".

Units gain elite status through successes and measurable results, not through battlefield training.  Veterans by definition are those that have seen combat, and typically the elite are the best of those veterans.

Are you sure about that ? It was my understanding that elite units just meant the best, regardless of actual combat experience. For instance, the Foreign Legion has a reputation for being an elite unit in part due to the harshness of its training, but not every legionnaire has had actual combat experience.

Elite police units also spring to mind, I expect them to be selected, among other criteria, for being exceptionally good at their current job, but they won't have any field experience doing whatever the unit they get enrolled into typically does.

Some wiki links:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/elite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_elite

[Akalabeth Angel]

It's an issue so far as "elite units" typically means "battle-tested".

Units gain elite status through successes and measurable results, not through battlefield training.  Veterans by definition are those that have seen combat, and typically the elite are the best of those veterans.

Are you sure about that ? It was my understanding that elite units just meant the best, regardless of actual combat experience. For instance, the Foreign Legion has a reputation for being an elite unit in part due to the harshness of its training, but not every legionnaire has had actual combat experience.

Elite police units also spring to mind, I expect them to be selected, among other criteria, for being exceptionally good at their current job, but they won't have any field experience doing whatever the unit they get enrolled into typically does.

Some wiki links:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/elite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_elite

As the link describes, throughout history different units have been called elite for different reasons. Some politically and some based on merit.  Sometime a person is recruited from training and sometimes they are recruited from existing units. Without knowing the political situation of either the galaxy or the First Order as a whole, it's unclear on what lines an elite First Order unit would be built.

In general however, I would suggest that the reason a unit is called elite is entirely dependent upon the political climate. If a unit for example gains the reputation of elite during wartime, it is likely due to success in combat. If a unit gains the reputation of elite in peace time, it's for political reasons or for 'in theory, on paper' reasons.  Similarly in the British navy at the turn of last century, officers advanced in rank during peace time for political connections but in wartime officers more likely advanced in rank due to their combat record.

However if the First Order unit was indeed "elite" then it must be drawn on political lines, there would be no other rational explanation for its inclusion of a janitor.  Though the exact method of assignment is unknown, the fact that Finn was assigned to sanitation makes it very likely that his combat or mental scores were too poor to be recruited by an elite unit based on merit.  This is exacerbated by the fact he almost instantly broke in combat and subsequently disobeyed orders. Even in peacetime, the link you've provided describes for example the US military recruiting people based on mental toughness.

Though personally, despite the Emperor's claims to the contrary, I think there's only one classification of imperial trooper: fodder.

[karajorma]

He was a sanitation worker when he worked at Starkiller Base; he's obviously not by the time the movie starts.

I was being sarcastic in case you hadn't noticed.


Whoever decided to transfer him from sanitation duty probably had a really harsh quarterly review (assuming they didn't blow up with the base). As with A New Hope, some peon makes a tiny mistake (not shooting an escape pod / transferring someone from sanitation duty) and the result is a blown up Death Star.

[MP-Ryan]

R2D2 activating at the end.

You mean R2D2 coincidentally coming back online after shutting down for a memory search (which is mentioned earlier), after the major events of the film are resolved?  While it's a pretty big coincidence, it's not an actual hole in the plot.  It happens; we don't actually require a technical explanation as to the why.  Is it the best writing in the film?  No; of course, neither is a rapidly-done technical analysis of a death star finding one little exhaust port in the span of a few hours in ANH.  If we're going to call every convenient happening in the films a plot hole, again, the entire series is laced with them.

Kylo Ren knowing where to find Rey on both the smuggler world and Starkiller's forest.

TESB:  Vader knows for a fact the crew of the Millenium Falcon is still alive and orders the fleet to continue searching, despite the damage sustained to the Imperial Ships.

The Force is used rampantly as a means of locating people throughout the series.  Criticizing it here is just silly.

The alien monsters capturing Finn when they've killed everyone else on sight.

I'll give you that one; I'd forgotten about it.  Yes, I recall thinking that they'd have to explain that away somehow but they never did.

[Akalabeth Angel]

R2D2 activating at the end.

You mean R2D2 coincidentally coming back online after shutting down for a memory search (which is mentioned earlier), after the major events of the film are resolved?

Is finding luke a major event? It was after all presented as the driving force of events in the opening titles and drove the action for the first half of the movie.

Is it the best writing in the film?  No; of course, neither is a rapidly-done technical analysis of a death star finding one little exhaust port in the span of a few hours in ANH.  If we're going to call every convenient happening in the films a plot hole, again, the entire series is laced with them.

If the condition of your challenge to find plot holes is to examine the film on its own, apart from the other movies, don't you think that defending this movie using events from the others is a double standard?

Kylo Ren knowing where to find Rey on both the smuggler world and Starkiller's forest.

TESB:  Vader knows for a fact the crew of the Millenium Falcon is still alive and orders the fleet to continue searching, despite the damage sustained to the Imperial Ships.

The Force is used rampantly as a means of locating people throughout the series.  Criticizing it here is just silly.

Vader went to hoth to find luke.
Luke was on hoth when the Falcon left.
If Vader could find luke the way kylo finds rey, why didn't he capture him on the hoth Battlefield instead of searching the base?

The alien monsters capturing Finn when they've killed everyone else on sight.

I'll give you that one; I'd forgotten about it.  Yes, I recall thinking that they'd have to explain that away somehow but they never did.

Cool thanks

[Dragon]

Vader went to hoth to find luke.
Luke was on hoth when the Falcon left.
If Vader could find luke the way kylo finds rey, why didn't he capture him on the hoth Battlefield instead of searching the base?

Maybe because it was, well, a battlefield? Sure, Vader was no slouch in combat, but strolling around (he couldn't run) with a lightsaber among heavy gunfire, speeders and all that might have seemed like a bad idea to him. He was nowhere near as agile as either Luke or Clone Wars-era Jedi who participated in battles. Hoth base was confined quarters, exactly the place where he had an advantage, as opposed to the very open battlefield.

The alien monsters capturing Finn when they've killed everyone else on sight.

I'll give you that one; I'd forgotten about it.  Yes, I recall thinking that they'd have to explain that away somehow but they never did.

Someone on TVTropes figured it out: they weren't hungry anymore. We do see them stuff themselves on two pirate gangs before they grab hold of Finn. Not the best explanation, but one I'd have easily accepted had they referred to it in the movie (really, I can think of so many quips Han could deliver on that...). Plot armor is nothing new in SW movies, but leaving this hanging was a bit jarring.

[Mongoose]

Honestly I didn't even bat an eye at the monster scene.  It's the sort of tongue-in-cheek plot-armor moment that's occurred in countless works of all genres.  Just laugh at it and move on.

[karajorma]

Why is anyone arguing the whole "How did Kylo Ren find Rey" instead of the much larger question of "How the hell did Hux find Kylo Ren and get him off the planet before it blew up"

This is going to be another one of those "JJ Abrams doesn't understand scale" excuses again. As if not understanding the size of a planet ISN'T a plot hole.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Vader went to hoth to find luke.
Luke was on hoth when the Falcon left.
If Vader could find luke the way kylo finds rey, why didn't he capture him on the hoth Battlefield instead of searching the base?

Maybe because it was, well, a battlefield? Sure, Vader was no slouch in combat, but strolling around (he couldn't run) with a lightsaber among heavy gunfire, speeders and all that might have seemed like a bad idea to him. He was nowhere near as agile as either Luke or Clone Wars-era Jedi who participated in battles. Hoth base was confined quarters, exactly the place where he had an advantage, as opposed to the very open battlefield.

The Imperial General called for Vader on the verge of their victory.
When Luke was chasing down an AT-AT to throw a thermal detonator inside, the rebel defense was already in full retreat.  He was essentially alone, behind enemy lines with little more than a few die-hard snow speeders opposing them.

So would it be safer for Vader to assault a Rebel base? Or safer to pick up Luke behind Imperial lines?

Why is anyone arguing the whole "How did Kylo Ren find Rey" instead of the much larger question of "How the hell did Hux find Kylo Ren and get him off the planet before it blew up"

And he's not the only one who got saved either if rumors are to be believed.

[karajorma]

Hell, why don't we just mention the map and be done with it. The map is a massive plot hole in that nothing about it is explained in the film at any point. Hell, they don't even bother to lampshade that there should be an explanation like they do with the lightsabre.

[Scotty]

Hell, why don't we just mention the map and be done with it. The map is a massive plot hole in that nothing about it is explained in the film at any point. Hell, they don't even bother to lampshade that there should be an explanation like they do with the lightsabre.

This sentence makes me doubt you're using the phrase "plot hole" correctly.  It's explicitly stated several times that the map is to the location of Luke Skywalker.  Poe is trying to get the previously missing piece to a place it can be put together.  What else needs to be explained?  Do you want them to name random planets that are marked on the map?  Name the planet Luke is on for no other reason than to have a name for it?  Have characters point out familiar landmarks for the viewer?

Doing a keyword search on the script for "Luke" reveals that the purpose of the map is explained five times by main characters during the movie.  Come on, Kara.

[karajorma]

Why does the empire have the map with the same missing piece? Why does some guy on that planet have the missing piece, where did he get it from? Why does R2D2 also have the rest of the map? What the **** were the resistance going to do if it didn't turn out that R2D2 had the rest of the map? Most importantly, who made the map in the first place?

Seriously, if you can't understand that these are questions a viewer might have, perhaps you should can the sarcasm.

Poe is trying to get the previously missing piece to a place it can be put together.

Completely and utterly wrong. The resistance DO NOT have the rest of the map. R2D2 has it and no one is aware of that fact. C-3PO even has a go at BB-8 for believing that R2 might have the rest. The resistance believed the map was complete.