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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 02:51:42 pm

Title: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 02:51:42 pm
http://dereksmart3000ad.tumblr.com/post/123125564079/interstellar-citizens

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3chb2q/derek_smart_apparently_wants_to_do_something/


TL;DR: Derek Smart, in a fit of self-righteous anger, is apparently trying to initiate some sort of legal crap against Cloud Imperium over Star Citizen. A move that, given his history with HLP, will likely come as a shock to nobody here.

Get out your popcorn gifs, because dis gon b gud (http://img.pandawhale.com/post-54562-sith-gon-b-gud-gif-Imgur-dis-c-JohF.gif).

EDIT: Update  (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3639730&pagenumber=761&perpage=40#post447625977) (Derek comments on SomethingAwful)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 03:00:25 pm
This is the best thing.  There is absolutely no way this can end in a way that won't be hilarious, no matter who wins.

On one hand, we have a has-been with a huge ego who has an overwhelming tendency to make promises he can't deliver on, and on the other, we have Derek Smart, who must be the only person in the industry to have an even bigger ego.  And, to paraphrase a post on SA, both of them have made the exact same number of good games over the past 15 years.

It's amazing.  Star Citizen is a neverending gold mine of fun (just not in the way Christ Roberts intended).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on July 08, 2015, 04:40:54 pm
Well this should be interesting. I'll get the popcorn.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 05:02:27 pm
sooo Star Citizen has over run, admittedly by spectacular fashion, but I am at a loss as to what legal justification for recourse he is looking for,
- Broken promise? how many games have been delayed?
- Broken promise after money had changed hands? release dates given on Pre-orders anyone
- Exceeding budget? see first point
- Feature Creep? see first point

Basically he is *****ing about things which while emphasized in SC's case are SOP in the industry.

If he wants to do some good, how about all the Crowd funding projects which have gone belly up after delivering nothing, at least SC is pumping out periodic tech demos.

Now one paragraph I found very interesting was
Quote
end of http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/

So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.

Go Home Derek, your drunk
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 05:07:08 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on July 08, 2015, 05:17:10 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 05:17:53 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



the difference is that Roberts is so far pulling it off, admittedly there is a long way to go before SC can be considered vaguely ready so time will be the witness of if he succeeds, but given the history of the two people I have massively more faith in Roberts abilities as a project leader than I could have in Smart short of releasing a very well polished game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 05:39:18 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



the difference is that Roberts is so far pulling it off, admittedly there is a long way to go before SC can be considered vaguely ready so time will be the witness of if he succeeds, but given the history of the two people I have massively more faith in Roberts abilities as a project leader than I could have in Smart short of releasing a very well polished game.
The only think CR is pulling off is feature creep and missing every single deadline he's ever set.  Oh, he's also amazingly good at selling virtual spaceships for hundreds or thousands of dollars. 

If, as that moron Lesnick says, avoiding dates is CIG's goal, they're pulling that off magnificently. 

Making a decent game?  No.  They're not even close.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 06:38:12 pm
like I say in my last post, SC is a long way from being considered complete so time will ultimately show if my faith in Roberts is justified but given past histories, Roberts has a history of successful games, Smart's reputation crashed and burned somewhere in the 90s, who knows, maybe the 2010s will be when we turn on Roberts, I hope not because I respect the hell out of him but just as SC succeeding is a real possibility, so is it crashing and burning a large chunk of the internet world.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2015, 06:51:07 pm
Am I missing something here?  Because apart from the hideously tl dr career story he offers about himself, I see no legal issues anywhere. Just an opinion. One that I even share at general.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on July 08, 2015, 06:51:18 pm
SC succeeding is far more of a long shot than it is a real possibility right now.  As of last ****ing August it had raised $50 million.  Today, it's passed $80 million.  And yet, we have a dogfighting demo, pre-order packages that cost $15 thousand ****ing dollars to unlock the privilege of spending $2,500 on a new ship, and absolutely nothing of the game promised.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 08, 2015, 07:01:46 pm
There's no way at this point that Star Citizen will be either good or remotely on time, but the former is legally irrelevant and the latter won't be at the stage where you can seriously take action against them for a long while yet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 07:44:42 pm
like I say in my last post, SC is a long way from being considered complete so time will ultimately show if my faith in Roberts is justified but given past histories, Roberts has a history of successful games, Smart's reputation crashed and burned somewhere in the 90s, who knows, maybe the 2010s will be when we turn on Roberts, I hope not because I respect the hell out of him but just as SC succeeding is a real possibility, so is it crashing and burning a large chunk of the internet world.
I wouldn't say CR has a history of good games.  I'd say he has a history of promising the world and delivering mediocrity.  That's what Freelancer was, and I have absolutely no reason to expect he'll do any better here.  Back when the KS first started, I thought maybe he'd learned from his past mistakes, but no, it's getting more and more obvious that he isn't able to control his ambition.  The fact that CIG has missed every single deadline they've ever set is ample evidence of that, as is the fact that what they have delivered still isn't fun to play.  Diaspora, which doesn't have a budget at all, managed to make a more fun newtonian combat sim than CR's $80M dogfight module.

And rather than make the space sim part of their space sim game better, CIG's having trouble making CryEngine, an FPS engine, work as an FPS.  Oh, they're also adding minigames for passenger liner flight attendants.  Wow, way to have your priorities straight, guys.  Wait, hang on, gotta make sure the 3rd person character model blinks at exactly the same time as the 1st person model.  Obviously that's way more important than making dogfighting fun.

At what point does it feel like CIG know what the **** they're doing?  Because I swear we have more competent developers on HLP (actually HLP has more competent developers than a lot of big studios, but you get my point).


And it's not like I'm expecting much from SQ42 either, given how CR's previous story-based outing was Starlancer, which was a horrible, horrible game.  Even the Wing Commander series makes it painfully obvious that CR would much rather be making movies than games.  90% of the (bad) story is in cutscenes, and the mission design is objectively ****awful.

Mission design probably isn't going to be improved in SQ42, because somehow, Foundry 42 is making missions while CIG is still pinning down the base space sim gameplay.  No ****ing clue how that works.



No, none of this is legally actionable, but the fact that Derek Smart of all people has declared war on Star Citizen is funny as hell.  If you can judge a man by the quality of his enemies, this says a great deal about CR and SC as a whole.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 08, 2015, 08:06:42 pm
What's important, is, to simulate everything. For immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 08:12:18 pm
I for one won't be happy until SC simulates the way the spacesuit chafes my character's ass and it has a concrete effect on gameplay.

"You can't aim properly because your ass itches.  Press F and move the mouse to scratch your ass."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 08, 2015, 08:19:09 pm
well that's why they decided to develop from scratch an entire game's worth of mechanics dedicated to moving **** around with your hands

because their plan for making trading less boring is to let you load your cargo manually
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 10:36:59 pm
Am I missing something here?  Because apart from the hideously tl dr career story he offers about himself, I see no legal issues anywhere. Just an opinion. One that I even share at general.

Read the reddit thread I linked, especially the comment that screenshots several pages of long-winded text from his Facebook page.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 09, 2015, 12:30:23 am
Aesaar, did Cloud Imperium Games kill your dog or something? I get where you're coming from but your presentation is so hostile (even in the complete lack of opposing parties) I almost feel compelled to disagree with you just for being an ass.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 02:00:31 am
So disagree with me.  But until you come up with better reasoning than "you're an ass", don't expect me to care.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 02:08:51 am
I'm going to assume that NGTM-1R means that he is going to disagree with you because he is an ass. Not that he was calling you one. The latter isn't acceptable behaviour on here. Certainly not from someone who just got out of the Political Prisoners group on the grounds that they could remain civil.




As for the issue itself, Derek Smart actually does make quite a few well-reasoned points. He is definitely correct that whatever the end product is, it won't be the game the Kickstarter promised. If we are very lucky it might be better but there is a good chance it will be an unplayable mess that will kick the entire space combat genre back into the grave it had been lying in with a stake through its heart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 09, 2015, 02:25:52 am
So disagree with me.  But until you come up with better reasoning than "you're an ass", don't expect me to care.

Presentation matters. You come across as incredibly bitter and angry about the issue, making anything you say automatically suspect in the eyes of party without prior knowledge. You can scream in rage unto the void about how it's bad and wrong and a betrayal and Chris Roberts is terrible all you want, but as long as you're screaming in rage, nobody really cares to listen.

Tone it down for chrissakes. Even though you're right you are literally not accomplishing anything besides giving people reasons not to take you seriously.

@Karaj: As a veteran of the Kazan Wars, you should know full well the point that was being made here and why it was. Shall I quote Aldo to you? "Even when you agree with the man his attitude is so noxious you find yourself compelled to take the opposite side." People who talk this way in Steam topics get muzzled for it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 02:45:44 am
The points DS makes are not entirely invalid. I'm not exceptionally enamoured of him, but he is saying something that needs to be said about Kickstarter and other sites.

There's always been something that has kept me away from Star Citizen, not sure what it is, possibly the fact that whatever Space-Sim video I watched, there was inevitably someone gushing about how good it was going to be in the comments. Having backed Starforge, I kind of dial back my opinion of many Kickstarter developers concepts of 'realistic' goals. As Peter Molyneux proved, sometimes it's possible to overpromise in order to get your backing, and not realize till later that you cannot possibly meet those goals in gameplay-compatible fashion.

Feature Creep is still alive and well, and that's fine, ambition fuels progress, but you have to draw a line under it all at some point.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 03:04:53 am
@NGTM-1R I got the point you were making. I'm just pointing out that you could have said it more diplomatically. Your second post on the subject is what your first post should have been.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 03:22:33 am
NGTM-1R: I'm not trying to convince anyone.  I'm explaining the problem with CIG.  I don't really care whether you believe me or not.  There are people on this forum whose opinion of me I care about.  You are not one of them.  If you feel like disagreeing with me on principle, I'll address pertinent arguments and ignore the rest.

But I'll take what you've said under consideration and try to write something a bit less passionate.  This is the best I can do:

I really wish there was something good about SC I could point to, but there isn't.  I backed in March 2013, got up to 430$ at one point (I sold all my pledges at a profit last year).  I really wanted to like this game.  Three years and 85 million dollars after the Kickstarter, CIG has missed each and every single one of their project deadlines.  They're 4 months behind this year's schedule, and 7 months behind last year's schedule.  The scope of the game has expanded massively, and I no longer believe CR and CIG have the ability to make a decent game out of SC.

You are right about one thing: I am somewhat bitter.  This game could have been something pretty good, and it was the initial pitch that sold me on it: A space sim where ships operate in a physically well-simulated environment, where maneuvering thrusters are actually modeled and can be shot out, affecting ship handling?  Hey, that sounds great.  Physically walking around the carrier in the campaign, that sounds pretty cool too.  Most importantly, this is doable.   Since then, CR has let his obsession with making ~the perfect game~ run rampant, and it's turned SC from an ambitious but reasonable space sim into some bloated SF life simulator that simply can't hope to be any good even if it gets to a full release.  The scope is simply too great.

So yeah, that's made me a bit bitter, and cries of "I trust CR" really annoy me because he's the reason this game is probably going to fail.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 03:31:48 am
I think was clear long ago that Star Citizen will be delayed, but I dont consider that a big problem. There is nothing wrong with "release when its done" attitude, I am patient enough. Its a good thing, not a bad thing, that they seem to have chosen that instead of rushing it or cutting features. Especially when there is no publisher to get mad about it, and while some crowdfunders might get mad, do you really think they wont play the game once its finally released? Its an impotent rage, quickly forgotten once the release actually happens (as long as the game is good of course).

As for the quality of the finished product, I after trying out the revamped flight model, I am again pretty optimistic. Its now pretty close to Diaspora actually. And the fact that they are focusing on technical/simulation aspects perhaps at the expense of story and gameplay might be worrying for people more interested in the story and vanilla game, but a big part of why I look forward to SC is the modding/total conversion potential of having such an advanced space opera game engine available. Even if the SC base game turns out to be a meh tech demo, I expect the game engine to spawn some awesome mods/TCs over time (Freespace Citizen?), or even entire new games by being licensed to third parties.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 03:37:14 am
Duke Nukem Forever had a "when it's done" release schedule.

You can't release when you're constantly remaking assets because production is taking so long those assets are becoming dated. 

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 03:59:08 am
That last comment is distinctly worrying. Get the game done. Then remodel. Otherwise you'll end up constantly remaking models.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 04:02:39 am
Duke Nukem Forever had a "when it's done" release schedule.

You can't release when you're constantly remaking assets because production is taking so long those assets are becoming dated. 

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

Its not that they are dated, its that they can make them even better - iterative approach to asset creation.

Its a "good" thing that we are now in the age when graphics are already not advancing very much and releasing your game even a few years out of date does not mean its technically dated, especially when you targeted only the high-end PCs during development. If Crysis was released today, it would still compare favorably and that game is 8 years old! Consolitis has slowed down technical progress, which might be bad for gaming overall, but its good for delayed games - even a few years delay now does not mean your game will be dated on release.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 04:31:32 am
I might be making enemies here, but I'm with Derek on this one. Yes, I KNOW. I KNOW. Don't lecture me on Derek. I KNOW. You just have to read his post. Jesus, what a personality. BUT STILL. He. Has. A. Point. And at some point in time, he will have a LEGAL point as well.

This is going to bomb. And hard.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 04:36:53 am
As for the quality of the finished product, I after trying out the revamped flight model, I am again pretty optimistic. Its now pretty close to Diaspora actually. And the fact that they are focusing on technical/simulation aspects perhaps at the expense of story and gameplay might be worrying for people more interested in the story and vanilla game, but a big part of why I look forward to SC is the modding/total conversion potential of having such an advanced space opera game engine available. Even if the SC base game turns out to be a meh tech demo, I expect the game engine to spawn some awesome mods/TCs over time (Freespace Citizen?), or even entire new games by being licensed to third parties.

Yeah, about that: Have they actually given any hints how the modding pipeline will work, or how good a scripting system they have?
Way I see it, Crysis modding was already not that easy. Modding this monster of a game, with all the many, MANY moving parts it has compared to something as simple as Crysis, is an order of magnitude or three harder. I think we're going to see Bethesda-style modding (i.e. asset replacement here or there, maybe even some single-player missions or something) at best.

Its a "good" thing that we are now in the age when graphics are already not advancing very much and releasing your game even a few years out of date does not mean its technically dated, especially when you targeted only the high-end PCs during development. If Crysis was released today, it would still compare favorably and that game is 8 years old! Consolitis has slowed down technical progress, which might be bad for gaming overall, but its good for delayed games - even a few years delay now does not mean your game will be dated on release.

It really wouldn't. Crysis has, if anything, aged really badly.

And yeah, I could understand them redoing their assets once to switch to PBR. That's understandable. Redoing them again, that's a sign of a developer who values perfection higher than functionality, which is death for any project (The better being the enemy of the good and all that).


Compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous: Frontier had a really good idea of what they wanted their game to be at release. They got some funding, made the game, released it in a playable state and got to work on incremental add-ons after launch, a strategy people seem generally happy about.
SC, on the other hand? Dozens of features added in later. Every public milestone missed by months. Ships that were in the original KS pitch still not flyable (Looking at you, Freelancer), but look at all these new shinies right here!

CIG communicates a lot. But I would put it to you that what they're actually doing is swamping us with minutiae in the hope that we'll mistake that for actual, big picture news, and that's somewhat galling. If CR came out and said, "Okay, we're hopelessly behind schedule, we're going to start shelving features until we got it cut down to something we can release in alpha state by the end of the year", I'd have much more faith in the project. But as it stands, that's not gonna happen.

Iterative game development is something new and potentially awesome. Why isn't SC using it?

I might be making enemies here, but I'm with Derek on this one. Yes, I KNOW. I KNOW. Don't lecture me on Derek. I KNOW. You just have to read his post. Jesus, what a personality. BUT STILL. He. Has. A. Point. And at some point in time, he will have a LEGAL point as well.

This is going to bomb. And hard.

I think you'll find that most of us who have posted here agree with that sentiment :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 05:21:29 am
If Derek Smart is reading this thread, I'm sure he'll be amazed by that fact. :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 05:52:43 am
Compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous: Frontier had a really good idea of what they wanted their game to be at release. They got some funding, made the game, released it in a playable state and got to work on incremental add-ons after launch, a strategy people seem generally happy about.

Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself. Arena Commander release can be considered partially iterative development, too. It is playable and I would even say that it is fun.

Also, while iterative development is fine, sometimes you just have to wait it out until core engine features are properly developed and there is not shortcut possible. That is the stage where SC is now. I have a feeling that once multicrew space combat, FPS and 64-bit update is properly integrated into one map, which should be done this year hopefully, we will see a lot more of iterative releases and playable content.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 06:04:19 am
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself. Arena Commander release can be considered partially iterative development, too. It is playable and I would even say that it is fun.

That's not the point. You're right, E:D is a bit shallow, but it is getting deeper with every major update and most importantly, it's released and people are playing it right now.
Compare that to Arena Commander: Last I checked, there were something like 4 playable ships on three maps in 4 game modes. That is after it has been out for a year.

That's not iterative development. That's throwing people bones instead of meat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on July 09, 2015, 06:11:00 am
Also, while iterative development is fine, sometimes you just have to wait it out until core engine features are properly developed and there is not shortcut possible. That is the stage where SC is now. I have a feeling that once multicrew space combat, FPS and 64-bit update is properly integrated into one map, which should be done this year hopefully, we will see a lot more of iterative releases and playable content.
This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:

This is the problem with Star Citizen's broadened scope and development plan. The more you add to a game the more exponentially high the amount of work is needed to realize that increased scope. This is especially bad when you try to do everything at once, because development becomes a mess. This is further amplified by the fact that several different sub-studios split up over the world are working on the game (AFAIK). What trying to do everything at once will end up accomplishing is instead doing nothing at all.

Chris Roberts is basically George Lucas because he lacks a natural filter, he has to have someone or some entity to reign in his insanity, hold his hand and point him in the right direction. What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 06:27:17 am
Quote
Chris Roberts is basically George Lucas because he lacks a natural filter, he has to have someone or some entity to reign in his insanity, hold his hand and point him in the right direction.
This.  Chris Roberts is an amazing idea guy.  He's the kind of guy whose ideas revolutionize something, the way George Lucas revolutionised special effects and SF space combat.  You listen to CR talk, and it pumps you up.  You want to play these ideas he has.  It made for a perfect Kickstarter.

But left on his own, as head of a project, there's nothing to keep those ideas in check.  Roberts doesn't know how to say "that's a bad idea" or "that's good enough, we should stop".  It's always got to be bigger and better.  As marketing, it works stupidly well.  But for actual game development, it needs to be moderated.  Roberts is the exact kind of person who needs a publisher there to control him.  It's obvious that the reason he doesn't like publishers is because they force him to make compromises he doesn't want to make.  But you need compromises to have a game that'll release.  You need a point where you can say "that's enough, this is the game", and you need to know exactly where that point is when you start.  CR has pushed that point further and further away in order to add more features, and it's gotten out of control.

In Todd Howard's* words: you can do anything, but you can't do everything.  And say what you want about Bethesda games, but they release on time and on budget, and are generally pretty solid.


What Roberts needs to to do is to stop.  He needs to think very carefully about what he wants in Star Citizen, and what can wait for a content pack or expansion.  I'd say that the FPS combat and planetary exploration parts are firmly in the latter category.  As is half the ship list.

But he can't do that either, can he?  He raised 85 million dollars based on all these promises he made, and cutting features would piss a lot of people off, even if they just spent 30$.  Because with a common pool like this, suddenly it's the community's money, and that's a lot their paid for a hybrid sim and FPS game.

And that's not a choice I think he's likely to make.  I don't think he'll compromise his vision and risk the wrath of his insanely fanatical fanbase in the name of practicality and common sense.


*Game Director and Executive Producer at Bethesda, in case you don't know

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 06:37:16 am
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself.

While E:D is far more complex than SC's modules, you're right that it is a lot less complex than the eventual ambitions of Star Citizen. There's a lesson in this: Frontier went simple and built on their design from there. They were able to release a far more complete product than anything CIG have come out with within two years. CIG decided to design a giant top-down cluster**** of systems shackled to fanwank expectations, and they've yet to produce even a functional flight sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 06:40:51 am
That's not the point. You're right, E:D is a bit shallow, but it is getting deeper with every major update and most importantly, it's released and people are playing it right now.
Compare that to Arena Commander: Last I checked, there were something like 4 playable ships on three maps in 4 game modes. That is after it has been out for a year.

There are 9 playable ships, most of them with additional variants, and six game modes now. Elite Dangerous has 20 flyable ships, which is on the same order as SC. And those Elite ships are less detailed than SC ones. Moreover, Arena Commander does not pretend to be a finished game at all, unlike Elite, but only a part of the whole.


This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:

    The FPS segment of Starcitizen and the space combat of Star Citizen are both effectively two different games that need to be merged.

I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.

You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 07:01:12 am
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.

You may see no reason, but I do. That sort of gameplay transition is a standard thing. Bloody Halo did it, god knows how many years ago. It's a solved problem, as much as anything in gamedev is.

That it is buggy should tell you something.

Quote
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.

SC has been in development since 2012. By the original development timeline, we should have had the so-called Planetside update, the FPS/Boarding thing, and an alpha version of the Squadron 42 singleplayer campaign online by now. We do not. All we have is Arena Commander.
Missing deadlines is a thing, especially on ambitious projects. I think everyone who originally bought into SC understood that. But the thing is that, and I mentioned this earlier in this thread, CIG is terrible about communicating the state of the project. Every week, we get mostly content-free updates from them, updates that do not do much to answer important questions about the game (Aesaar found this post (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5284359/#Comment_5284359) on the RSI forums that, AFAIK, has not received any response yet. Look at it closely, and ask yourself why we do not know any of these incredibly fundamental things about the game).

It is not a matter of not having patience. It's a matter of not having confidence, and the various high-profile departures from CIG over the past few months and CIG's communications issues do not inspire any.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 07:05:36 am
And those Elite ships are less detailed than SC ones.

The Elite ships are finished. The Elite ships are released. The Elite ships are fun to fly. I'd say that more than makes up for them not having modelled toilets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 07:10:23 am
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.
It's not going to happen by the end of the year because they don't even have a standalone shooter ready yet, and have no ETA until they do. 

And even once it's ready, they'll have three separate things: Arena Commander (for shooting at ships with your ship), Star Marine (for shooting at people), and the Hangar Module (for walking around and inside the ships).  It's delusional to think finishing the FPS and unifying all these modules will be a 6 month affair.  Especially given that CryEngine is an FPS engine and CIG still haven't managed to make a standalone corridor shooter out of it yet.


Quote
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.
I don't expect a constant stream of goodies.  I expect a bit of substance.  Three years in, and CIG has delivered a mediocre dogfight game which still isn't representative of the gameplay they want, according to CIG themselves.  They have delivered nothing else.  Not even good information.  Here's a list of questions someone posted over in Ben Lesnick's "everything is fine, there are no American tanks in Baghdad" megathread:

Quote from: Beer4TheBeerGod https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5284359/#Comment_5284359
CR mentioned that there are three types of gameplay planned: solo, small group, and large group. How does large group play work? Where do they fight, what do they fight over, how do they fight? How are those groups managed? How does conflict work when the organizations exceed the capacity of a single instance? How will NPC groups like the UEE interact with large orgs, particularly if an org becomes particularly powerful?

How does one control a station? What are the benefits of controlling that station? How does one prevent others from using that station, and how do others take control from the owner? How long does that take to occur? How big of a conflict is it? Can stations be upgraded, if so to what extent?

How do I fly from point A to point B? We know of an auto-pilot mechanic and we've seen a q-drive animation, but that's it. How will sensors work outside of an instance? What can I see? What can't I see? How do the instancing mechanics and sensor mechanics work together so I can intercept someone? If we're both going 0.2c can I even intercept someone if I'm behind them? Do I have to follow nav points or can I just freely fly from point to point? How do players ambush each other?

How does one find a jump point? How does one explore a planet or other unknown area? Is an instance dynamically generated for me to walk around? How big is it? How much can I see? What can I do? How much fresh content is there, and how much repetition? How often will new jump points be generated? How will players even know when to look for a jump point, and when they're wasting their time?

How big is a solar system? What is it equivalent to in terms of content? How many locations are there? How many players is a single system designed to hold? How long will it take to cross a system (we've heard multiple values)?

What percentage of the universe is divided between lawless and lawful space? What happens if I commit a crime in lawless space, how does that affect my reputation in lawful space? What resources will be available in lawless space that can't be obtained anywhere? How will CIG encourage PvP in lawless space since it's supposed to be the "no holds barred" super risky area equivalent to Demon Souls in terms of difficulty?

How are ships supposed to fly in terms of their feel? Is the current implementation of Arena Commander how they're envisioned? How is a multi-crew ship different from a small ship? How long is combat between two equal ships supposed to take? What role will missiles play, and is the current implementation how it's envisioned? What will guns be differentiated from each other so I might want a repeater for one scenario and a mass driver for another?

How will Star Citizen become controller agnostic?

What is the expected feel of FPS? Is it supposed to be short and brutal? If so, how will FPS gameplay be encouraged if death is supposed to be meaningful?

How will a player return to the game after death, and what will the penalty of death actually be in terms of time and asset loss? How will CIG make death a meaningful penalty while still encouraging risky gameplay? If the mechanic involves a pilot being "rescued" how will that work? If I "kill" a pilot and he's rescued, does that mean he has a record of me attacking him? What is the difference in penalty between being rescued and dying such that you play your next of kin?

How will two capital ships fight? Will they share an instance, or will the distances be such that they effectively fight across instances? How many players will be expected to pilot a capital ship? What is the benefit of having a crew station manned by a PC versus a NPC? Since capital ships are always persistent within the game universe, what happens when nobody from an organization is available to man it?

To what extent will players be required to visit store after store as opposed to just getting what they want over the local equivalent of the Internet? How often will I run into someone who doesn't own the place but has an arrangement with the people who do? How will planetside interaction be engaging and fun instead of a chore like it is with most games?

How many characters can I have per account? Is there any way for me to find out if one character shares the same account as another? What exactly does a "NPC slot" entail and what are the benefits of having it?

How are crimes recorded? How far does a record of a crime propagate? Is a record limited to a system, region, entire Empire? How does a player pay for his crimes? How does jail work? How does being captured by a bounty hunter work? What about enslaving another player?

How does fuel work? How big of a role will fuel play within the game? Will there be multiple types of fuel? How far is a ship expected to be able to travel before refueling? What happens if a ship runs out of fuel, can they be trapped? How does a ship scoop fuel from a gas giant? Will fuel be a meaningful resource with scarcity (particularly in the lawless regions), or will it be something similar to Elite where it's more of an inconvenience?

How will instances actually work? What are the parameters for matchmaking, and are there places the matchmaker is less likely to work than others? What will prevent an instance from exceeding capacity? What will the players see when that happens? How big is the capacity of an instance, and what determines that capacity? Is it possible to "break" an instance by (for example) having all of your crew jump out of an airlock?

How many hours of gameplay will it take to earn an Aurora? Avenger? Cutlass? Super Hornet? Constellation? Reclaimer? Idris?

How does salvage work? How are components extracted? What are the legalities of salvage? Will wrecks persist once an instance is empty, so that I can pop a ship and then bring in my buddies to take it?

What will be done to ensure that gameplay is meaningful and engaging, particularly for multi-crew play? Why would someone want to be the missile loader after they've done it the first time?

How will repairing your ship work? What level of skill will be involved, or will it be similar to the healing gun for the FPS? How long will repairs take?

How will piracy work? How do I find a prize? How do I get them to dump their cargo? If they resist, how do I ensure their cargo stays intact while we fight?

How does the modularity system work? To what extent can I change the functionality of a ship? We know of cargo pods and modules being inserted, but not of what they'll do or what the benefits are.

How does the painting system work? How much can I customize the appearance of my ship? Can I get a custom logo for my organization? What's the process for getting that logo into the game?

How much will insurance cost? How long will it take for me to get a ship back through insurance? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks?

How is inventory managed? How will I see what my person has on them? How do I put on armor or store a weapon? How long does it take to put on a suit, for example if there's a hole in my ship and I'm losing oxygen? If I shoot someone is there any limitation on what I can take from their body?

How are credits managed? Is it possible to steal credits from someone else? Are there physical representations of credits, or is it entirely electronic? How do alien entities handle UEE currency? What about pirates?

How does ship armor work?

How does life support work? Am I limited by the number of crew I can carry? Will I run out of oxygen if I have too many people? What about air breathing cargo? Can I carry cows, and if so do I need to upgrade my life support system to accommodate them?

These are questions about the fundamental gameplay mechanics, something CIG has remained very tight-lipped about.  They're not easy questions, but they're insanely important.  CIG's lack of communication about these matters is extremely telling.  The Kickstarter was three years ago.  These questions should have had answers long before now. 

Don't tell me we aren't patient enough.  Three years, and we still don't have any concrete information about how the game is supposed to play.  All we have are vague promises.


EDIT: The_E beat me to it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 07:13:49 am
In truth, I'm am sympathetic to the developers who got into his company and have to deal with the trainwreck of all of his ambitions crashing into reality. The level of nerve-wreckedness that this environment must already be into, the number of whispers of how the direction is being lunatic (and how ultimately, it's always the devs fault, because of course). It must be staggering, the kind of fatalist doomed pressure they must be in.

Which might not help affairs at all. I can even picture some of them, "What, what did he mean we are going to make fps combat inside big ships while others are fighting outside with space fighters? Wait, did he just say we are gonna have a hundred planets developed?.... Oh god, what did he say now?"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 07:18:13 am
Sounds a lot like working for Molyneux.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on July 09, 2015, 09:24:29 am

What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.

FIFY.  :) 

As soon as I read about Star Citizen and saw who was behind it, I was all "Woo hoo!!"  Then 3.14159 seconds later I remembered all the promises (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_(video_game)#Development) for Freelancer.  I was hopeful that with another 15 years of technology and experience he could pull this off, yet I was skeptical at the same time.

I really want this game to succeed, for the good of the genre (I personally am not interested in an in-depth simulation as much as a fun shooter).  I don't think the genre will ever be gone for good, but I am afraid of consumer disappointment in projects like this setting it back again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 09:59:14 am

What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.

FIFY.  :) 

As soon as I read about Star Citizen and saw who was behind it, I was all "Woo hoo!!"  Then 3.14159 seconds later I remembered all the promises (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_(video_game)#Development) for Freelancer.

I liked Freelancer and thought it turned out well. Not necessarily what people had been expecting, but it's a fine game in its own right.

I'm expecting Star Citizen will turn out similar. A fun game, eventually delivered well behind schedule, but not quite the game that people thought they'd be getting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 09, 2015, 11:14:29 am
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 09, 2015, 12:18:15 pm
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does. 

Fair enough view to have
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on July 09, 2015, 12:23:33 pm
I liked Freelancer and thought it turned out well. Not necessarily what people had been expecting, but it's a fine game in its own right.

I'm expecting Star Citizen will turn out similar. A fun game, eventually delivered well behind schedule, but not quite the game that people thought they'd be getting.

I agree; Freelancer is a fun game.  My only real beef with it is the deliberate lack of joystick support.  I guess it was done to try to broaden the appeal, but it seems all it did was alienate many of the genre's hardcore fans, who already had joysticks and wanted to use them.  I didn't pick up my copy until I found it in a bargain bin for $2.  When older games like FreeSpace could already be played with or without a joystick, I never understood why joystick support was removed completely.   

The other features didn't appeal to me, but I remember people being disappointed that it content was scaled back. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 12:41:47 pm

I agree; Freelancer is a fun game.  My only real beef with it is the deliberate lack of joystick support.  I guess it was done to try to broaden the appeal, but it seems all it did was alienate many of the genre's hardcore fans, who already had joysticks and wanted to use them.  I didn't pick up my copy until I found it in a bargain bin for $2.  When older games like FreeSpace could already be played with or without a joystick, I never understood why joystick support was removed completely.   


Freelancer has mouse-aimed gimballed weapons AND mouse turning combined. Works well enough with a mouse, but it's fairly awkward to do with a joystick... and if you made the weapons just fire straight forward, the game gets a lot harder. I'm guessing its a design problem they never managed to solve before they needed to ship, so they erred on the side of supporting mice.

It's a design problem that hasn't gone away, either: Arena Commander has the same issue and still hasn't managed to solve it to everyone's satisfaction.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 09, 2015, 12:51:01 pm
I think the mouse-first design is why the game has lasted so long.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 12:55:36 pm
I think the mouse-first design is why the game has lasted so long.

It really goes a long way towards making the game accessible. I'm not surprised they're trying to keep it for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 09, 2015, 01:05:49 pm
I actually thought Starlancer and Wing Commander 3 were decent games (Starlancer somewhat less so though).  So I'm hoping the spacesim genre doesn't die.   That said, from what I've heard I'm not crazy about SC that much in and of itself.


That being said, overall I disliked the Wing Commander movie, so I'm not a fan of everything Chris Roberts does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 01:13:16 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 09, 2015, 01:33:59 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

They talk about No Man's Sky in the early stages of the podcast and opinions are less than ideal

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 01:49:59 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

Limit Theory all day erry day

Also Enemy Starfighter.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 01:57:58 pm
Pretty sure I'm going to end up buying all of them anyway, so I'm happy to root for the lot.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 02:11:03 pm
Enemy Starfighter is the only one of those I have any anticipation for. The others have drunk too deep from the open-world Kool-ade.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 02:27:51 pm
Thing is, people aren't Donkeys, at one point or another they are going to start asking 'so when do I actually get that carrot?'

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: starlord on July 09, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
Guys, come on!

http://imagespaceinc.com/rogsys/

Surprised none of you mentioned this one! Seems to be a good attempt at a Newtonian space sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 02:44:03 pm
I don't get what the obsession with Newtonian flight mechanics is with the current crop of space sim fans. I thought the original Frontier had pretty well proven that they're not actually fun?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 09, 2015, 02:58:05 pm
I don't get what the obsession with Newtonian flight mechanics is with the current crop of space sim fans. I thought the original Frontier had pretty well proven that they're not actually fun?

I don't like them either.  I prefer 'regular' space sim physics like FS and Wing Commander.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 03:14:14 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

Limit Theory all day erry day

Also Enemy Starfighter.

That poor Josh Parnell... he had quite the mental breakdown.

e: regarding Total Biscuit's opinion, I haven't heard that podcast, but I think I know his opinion already. If I'm willing to guess what he says there is something to the effect of "I see no gameplay there, seems boring, how does it play? Serious doubts, etc."

I share those doubts as well. But I guess that my expectations are just not the biggest stuff ever. In my mind, that's kind of a game like Minecraft meets Journey. It has a huge open world that seems mildly interesting, but still fun. I totally see myself just wandering those places about. For tight narratives, I'll have Mass Effect.

Also, given IGN's latest video, I'd say they already have a functioning build. It seemed to work perfectly fine, without performance hiccups, great visuals, everything up and running. So, I'm convinced that at least they have something that will ship, which is a lot more than I can say for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 03:46:20 pm
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does.
Personally I tend to back Kickstarters based on the scale of what's being delivered.  So far I've successfully received rewards from 3 projects, and those involved dubbing/releasing an anime movie, creating an anime short, and publishing a webcomic book.  Most of the other ones I've backed are in the same vein, and even for the one or two larger ones, they have clearly-defined scopes and have updated regularly enough that I feel confident about getting the finished product.  With something as pie-in-the-sky as SC, I'd definitely wait until a nearly-finished product was on the table before committing anything to it.  It still utterly amazes me that people have dumped tens of thousands of dollars on it for virtual spaceships that haven't even been modeled yet.

As far as SC itself goes, I can't help but look at our humble little 15-year-old space sim with its 300-polygon fighters and think, "Yeah I'm good."  I don't have any real interest in the sprawling open-world types of space games; I'd much rather have a tightly-focused gameplay experience with a good story than play space stockbroker.  And when you look at what SC has displayed thus far, which largely seems to consist of how many doors you can open and close on your fully-modeled freighter, it's like...why bother?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 04:03:46 pm
Immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: starlord on July 09, 2015, 04:24:05 pm
Actually, I think some Newtonian space sims were quite close to the fun mark (this is my opinion only).

I could name a few like Terminus, I-war (both of them), Warhead and its successor mantis.
I personally happen to be curious what route rogue system will be taking.

But I certainly do have a crave for the more standard freespace like game mechanics as well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CP5670 on July 09, 2015, 04:38:26 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

As for Freelancer, I thought it was very good. It may have been cut down from its original plans but has a great main campaign and universe to explore, and the mouse feels fine for the game's movement mechanics. Actually, Freelancer is very highly regarded on other forums I go to. I think we've been spoiled by FS around here. :p

Quote
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does.

I agree with this. I don't like buying effectively incomplete and/or untested products, and usually wait some time after a game is fully released to buy it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 04:52:25 pm
Immersion.
Silly me, I thought immersion was defined by good writing and plotting, not being able to open a storage cabinet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 05:07:30 pm
I thought so too, but the Star Citizen forums taught me otherwise.  Immersion actually means simulating the flow of air over my character's eyebrows.

But seriously, on the SC forums, "immersion" is a buzzword used for pretty much everything.  People typically use it to add legitimacy to their opinions.  It's most commonly thrown around when discussing pointless things that have no impact on gameplay, like working toilets and being able to open every little hatch on your ship.

It's what "freedom" is to to American public figures: It doesn't actually mean anything, but it sounds good.


If it were me in charge, every time someone mentioned the word immersion, I'd just fill their hangar with water.  "Here, immersive hangar."

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 05:39:37 pm
'Immersion' as used by Star Citizens does have a pretty defined meaning, but it's really more like disjointed simulationism. Star Citizen's design is like one of those deep dream pictures that are so popular right now: it has a pretty reasonable top-level structure, but the fine detail of all the systems is a nightmarish mosaic of misplaced simulation mechanics invented because they sound good when you talk about them to the fans.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 05:42:22 pm
But does the game correctly models the eyebrows according to different hair strenghts? That's the important question here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 06:24:15 pm
There must be a terrible compulsion when you have a tap that money comes out of. You just turn the tap, and out pours the money. Everything's great until the tank runs dry.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 07:58:27 pm
Warhead and its successor mantis.

HANG ON A SECOND. THERE"S A SEQUEL TO WARHEAD!!!!


See you guys in about a week.

I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

He is a forum member. If he does, he better be treated with the respect I'd expect any other HLP member to get. Of course that goes both ways.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 08:08:18 pm
We're probably safe in assuming he's reading this, since his name has been mentioned more than three times. :D

Hi Derek!  How are things?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scourge of Ages on July 09, 2015, 08:56:38 pm
Also Enemy Starfighter.


Also, I couldn't be bothered to read Smart's post(s), so have been gleaning the content from you guys here. What's the possible legal action he can take, and on what grounds? Did he contribute to the SC crowdfund, and wants to see results? That would be reasonable, but if he doesn't have a stake in it, then what?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 09:19:59 pm
I assume the accusation is that CIG took crowdfunding money to make a product that they then didn't deliver. This won't get anywhere at this stage because they're only a few months behind schedule and development is still ongoing. Smart isn't making the complaints himself, he's working with someone who did contribute as a proxy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 09:57:01 pm
A good read: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3coq7s/trolling_derek_smart_is_fun/csxs4iv
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 11:03:51 pm
That piece is all over the place. At first he notes that Derek's "trolling" might be the "best thing ever" to happen to SC, at the end he's reaching the obvious opposite conclusion. It is a TL DR piece. All that was needed to be said was "DEREK IS TRYING TO CREATE BAD PRESS". Christ, as if it needs any help. Even captain John - Obvious - Bain over there, right after speaking about No Man's Sky, he ends that part with a "Well, at least they have a game which is more than I can say about Star Citizen..." followed by a group trashing of that whole enterprise.

SC is going to become the buttjoke of Kickstarter. Basically, the NU-Duke Nukem Forever. Unless they wise up, which, ahah, I'm guessing not.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 11:56:38 pm
Diehard Star Citizen fans don't respond well to people that haven't bought into the hype.  It's gotten to the point where the SC forum mods are locking threads and probating people who cast too much doubt on the project, citing their "no trolling" rules as justification.  And I don't mean stuff like "SC sucks".  I mean more negative but still civil comments like what we've seen in this thread.

And before you ask, no, it hasn't happened to me.  I don't bother actually arguing with people over there.  Waste of time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 10, 2015, 03:28:20 am
That piece is all over the place. At first he notes that Derek's "trolling" might be the "best thing ever" to happen to SC, at the end he's reaching the obvious opposite conclusion. It is a TL DR piece. All that was needed to be said was "DEREK IS TRYING TO CREATE BAD PRESS".

I think that first sentence is a quote from somebody else.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 10, 2015, 04:20:56 am
I wasn't referring to the first line.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 10, 2015, 10:48:56 am
Oh also while we're talking about actually good upcoming space games, Heat Signature's looking better and better with every post about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on August 24, 2015, 06:40:38 pm
He's going with it!

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/interstellar-breach/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on August 24, 2015, 06:50:06 pm
*munches popcorn*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on August 24, 2015, 07:12:27 pm
I think he might have actually snapped
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on August 24, 2015, 10:31:27 pm
Yeah his blog posts have seemed increasingly...foamy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 24, 2015, 10:58:11 pm
They already gave him his money back. He's got about as much standing as a snake.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: procdrone on August 25, 2015, 10:08:02 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, Im starting to believe it will never be released...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on August 25, 2015, 10:11:49 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on August 26, 2015, 06:09:13 pm
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.

At that time, if single-player ends up there, that's when i'll grumble about getting my money back.

not before.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on August 29, 2015, 01:03:28 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

As for Freelancer, I thought it was very good. It may have been cut down from its original plans but has a great main campaign and universe to explore, and the mouse feels fine for the game's movement mechanics. Actually, Freelancer is very highly regarded on other forums I go to. I think we've been spoiled by FS around here. :p

Spoiled? Nah, I think Freelancer was *really* good at what it set out to be (a successor to WC: Privateer), whilst FS was also *really* good at what it set out to be  (a succesor to the X-wing series). Whether you prefer the one or the other is more down what you want out of a game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: jr2 on August 29, 2015, 01:06:51 am
...what you want out of a game.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2jeqree.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on August 29, 2015, 04:19:33 am
It amuses me that Freelancer only made it to release because Chris Roberts sold Digital Anvil to Microsoft (and left the company), which he did because he ran out of money 18 months into development trying to make ~the perfect game~.

Content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuJh3h6rAX8

87 million dollars.


(http://i.giflike.com/Agxak0u.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on August 29, 2015, 08:47:48 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.

At that time, if single-player ends up there, that's when i'll grumble about getting my money back.

not before.

You do know the single player was part of the pitch for the crowd funding
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 25, 2015, 07:09:59 pm
http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/09/star-citizen-the-long-con/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point

I'm glad this project led with the MMO idea, not the single player, or might have been inclined to actually throw money at it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 26, 2015, 07:25:13 am
Everyone in the world should get an update on Hanlon's razor... too much focus on the "con artist" angle these days, when explanations are a lot more mundane and ... sad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 26, 2015, 07:43:05 am
tl;dr -

The predictable outcome of crowdsourcing, and derek smart wants attention.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 26, 2015, 08:09:38 am
He might be wanting attention, but he's also right that the project is a total ****storm.

Or you could see it this way: Imagine how terrible the situation at SC must be that they are being pwned left and right by someone like Derek Smart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on September 26, 2015, 10:01:00 am
Really intriguing to watch. I doubt SC will end up delivering on everything promised but (unlike Mr. Smart) I'm reasonably confident a fun game will eventually emerge.

I also want it to succeed because I think the earth would melt from Mr. Smart's smugness if he turned out to be right.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 26, 2015, 04:18:09 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on September 26, 2015, 04:36:13 pm
I also want it to succeed because I think the earth would melt from Mr. Smart's smugness if he turned out to be right.

Apart from the obvious of it being a shot in the arm for space games if it succeeds, all those people who paid into it deserve it for their faith and loyalty and for sparking off the renewed production of space games by showing the World that this isn't a dead genre.

Sadly though, it's not looking good, and I hope it doesn't have a negative effect on the future production of space games, though I don't think it will as it showed the World there's money to be made and if Star Citizen does collapse, it won't change that, indeed, people might well think they can get the people who bought into Star Citizen to spend their money on them instead.

This is linked to in that Escapist article Akalabeth posted:

https://archive.is/vB6RP

It's a very interesting read, and it it's authentic shows how even with vast amounts of money and talent a project can still be ruined. It puts me in mind of EA swallowing up all those great companies and ruining them because they couldn't keep their tentacles out of the way and just let them carry on doing what made them great. Trust the talent to do what they know how to do and just get out of the way and let them work their magic.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on September 26, 2015, 05:05:12 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Freelancer wasn't awesome. It was one dimensional in writing and in gameplay, the game's art style was hilariously bad, and so poorly mismanaged Chris Roberts had to sell his company and stop being director of the game for it to release!

fakeedit: However one dimensional writing and gameplay are par the course for Chris Robert's games

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 26, 2015, 05:10:34 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release.  If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere.  He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.

The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
No publisher is going to save Star Citizen.  No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on September 27, 2015, 03:10:11 am
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release.  If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere.  He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.

The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
No publisher is going to save Star Citizen.  No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.

Be aware that there is a point where hate starts to not look serious, but outright hilarious to anyone who reads it, especially if the quoted "facts" do not match with reality.

(Starlancer came way before Freelancer and arguably neither was half bad.)

Peace?


Don't take me wrong... I understand people being wary or sceptic and I wouldn't even call myself all THAT optimistic towards Star Citizen myself at this point.... but still ... seriously? ;-)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:37:50 am
Be aware that there is a point where hate starts to not look serious, but outright hilarious to anyone who reads it, especially if the quoted "facts" do not match with reality.

(Starlancer came way before Freelancer and arguably neither was half bad.)

Peace?


Don't take me wrong... I understand people being wary or sceptic and I wouldn't even call myself all THAT optimistic towards Star Citizen myself at this point.... but still ... seriously? ;-)
Yes, Starlancer came before Freelancer.  When did I say otherwise?  I said it's the last game CR released, which is true because he didn't release Freelancer.  He was forced off the dev team by Microsoft as part of the deal for them buying Digital Anvil in 2000, probably because his management nearly ran his company into the ground.  This isn't hate, it's literally what happened.

I don't like Freelancer, but I can see why someone might like it (especially since it's been pretty significantly modded). 

On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on September 27, 2015, 03:39:37 am
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's.  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:45:16 am
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's.  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
The correct term is Nazi ****boxes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on September 27, 2015, 03:46:07 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.

Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on September 27, 2015, 03:48:09 am
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version.

This is literally the problem we've been pointing out for the entire discussion.  He has no concept of when to stop, and that ruins games he works on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:59:18 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.
Oh, really?  I thought that was just Privateer 2.  Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games.  On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.

And how Foundry 42 is making a singleplayer campaign when CIG haven't figured out a way to make their base gameplay fun is beyond me.

Quote
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
  That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time.  But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it.  It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on September 27, 2015, 05:45:55 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.
Oh, really?  I thought that was just Privateer 2.  Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games.  On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.

And how Foundry 42 is making a singleplayer campaign when CIG haven't figured out a way to make their base gameplay fun is beyond me.

Quote
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
  That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time.  But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it.  It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.

And all I am saying is that I find it funny when people are all so sure about how a project will turn out before the fact ... and pretend to know exactly who is repeating what mistakes and what not ...

I believe the term is "doomsaying". And yes there is the opposite, "fanboism", i believe, too. The Star Citizen forums are a giant example of what happens when huge numbers of either team meet to battle it out and it' ain't pretty LOL.

Personally... I find either equally silly and/or idiotic at times. (And - if I had any say over it - would at least prefer that this special brand of idiocy would stay contained within the Star Citizen forums.)



We gonna see what happens to Star Citizen, when it happens, or doesn't, ain't we?

(If no meteroite hits the earth or WW3 starts and we all gonna die, ... how s that for doomsaying? lol)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 06:24:17 am
There's this little thing humans are able to do.  We can look at past events, look at how and why they happened, and then use that knowledge to find similar patterns and make educated predictions about the future.  No really, humans can do this.

I could be wrong, but judging by what CIG have released, what they've promised, the information they've provided, and CR's past attempt to make a game like this, I don't think I am.  This isn't an unfounded opinion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 27, 2015, 09:06:07 am
Mikes, you're right in saying that no one here really knows what the future is going to be exactly, so it might be the case that indeed the game will proceed well.

But, Aesaar is absolutely right too: we just have too many signs that say otherwise. His comment on how they are making the single player campaign without having nailed a fun gameplay first is astounding... it's facepalmland. Everywhere I see companies making, firstly, huge efforts in getting the gameplay right, and just then try to build a game on top of that, and only at the end will the assets come forth. All signs point to a disaster in the making, being led by someone who should be best described by having the true "reality distortion bubble" that Jobs was famous for (the difference was, Jobs delivered).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 28, 2015, 02:50:17 pm
And all I am saying is that I find it funny when people are all so sure about how a project will turn out before the fact ... and pretend to know exactly who is repeating what mistakes and what not ...

Personally I think the biggest thing to consider when analyzing a developer is his track record.

If this was a Peter Molyneux game for example, would more people consider the lofty goals to be a bit far-fetched? Would there be more doom saying?

So if Robert's last game sunk his company, and he hasn't done anything in 10-14 years since then, and his new game is the same as his old game only more ambitious in every respect then isn't there legitimate cause for concern?

Similarly people complain when for example a single player game has a tacked-on multiplayer component, they say why spend time on this when you could be improving the main game? Yet Star Citizen for example has basically added on an entirely new game with the FPS aspect.  Which is quite an ironic turn of events when you think about it considering the original pitch was essentially championing the space sim and yet the final game is tacking on an FPS.  Would people applaud a Freespace 3 which puts half its budget into a cover-based shooter like Gears of War?

The FPS module reminds me of another game actually, Daikatana. When John Romero split from iD his plan for Daikatana was all kinds of ambitious.  But later on, having missed his first deadline he got a look at Quake 1 and saw that Carmack had added lighting effects to projectiles and other new tech, so Romero was like "**** I need to improve the game and get that lighting in there!" and the game got delayed, people quit, etcetera and so forth.

Now with Star Citizen, as I understand it Star Marine was announced at PAX 2014.  Is it possible that Roberts saw say No Man's Sky in 2013, saw a man walk around on a planet, get into a ship, fly into a space battle and land on another planet and suddenly think "**** I need to improve the game and get FPS in there!".  Maybe the time line doesn't quite match up but either way it seems by going for the FPS component the game has nearly doubled in scope. I know there was talk of walking around your ship and getting into your hangar and so forth, but if you're going to have planetary fights as well that is going to require a lot of environmental and technical work.

Something to be said for defining a scope and sticking to it.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 28, 2015, 10:31:17 pm
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets. Remember that this component was supposed to be part of the game from the start. Star Citizen's scope is enormous, so I'd guess a lot of it would have to be highly modular, with a powerful scripting system capable of handling multitude of situations. If the weapons code can be used to handle character weapons as well as ship based ones and planetary surfaces you fly over are detailed enough not to look bad from first person, then you can have the FPS component with relatively little additional features (basically boils down to enabling characters to have and use weapons). Ultimately, once you can walk around and shoot, what more is there to it? An FPS expansion was at some point even planned for FS2Open, dunno what became of that (probably nobody actually cared enough to do it).

The biggest problem would be getting the AI to work with the FPS component. This can't be carried over from spaceflight and is a very complex problem. Even games like ArmA suffer from AI occasionally being dumb as a brick and not particularly humanlike. Making a game in which people can walk around and shoot each other is a lot easier than making one in which one person can walk around and shoot at AIs (why do you think so many games go multiplayer-only? You need neither AI nor mission writing). I'd fully expect the FPS component to be multiplayer-only for a long time.

I believe that Roberts can pull this off if he plays this smart. He has money and a huge fanbase. Some of the fans can make good developers (or even already be good developers), while being passionate and unlikely to just get bored and quit. He can afford a large team. "Early Access"-style releases also seem to help keep the devs interested. If it doesn't get abandoned (unlikely, from what I've seen) or doomed by bad management (a real danger that killed many large projects), I think it can succeed. Development will likely take ages, though.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 29, 2015, 12:50:23 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets. Remember that this component was supposed to be part of the game from the start. Star Citizen's scope is enormous, so I'd guess a lot of it would have to be highly modular, with a powerful scripting system capable of handling multitude of situations. If the weapons code can be used to handle character weapons as well as ship based ones and planetary surfaces you fly over are detailed enough not to look bad from first person, then you can have the FPS component with relatively little additional features (basically boils down to enabling characters to have and use weapons). Ultimately, once you can walk around and shoot, what more is there to it? An FPS expansion was at some point even planned for FS2Open, dunno what became of that (probably nobody actually cared enough to do it).

Um, two things.

I would think there would be a world of difference in terms of assets and fidelity for a planet which you can fly over and a planet which you can walk upon.  Further are there weather effects? Different gravity types? Destructable terrain? Is the terrain procedural? Are the structures? What about fluids? If they're using an engine that will account for some of that, but I mean the biggest thing is that you're increasing a planet's LOD by 2-3 levels (in freespace terms).

For the FPS aspect. I'm not a game dev but I would suspect there's a heck of lot more going into an FPS than simply walking and shooting.  The gunplay differences between say Halo, COD and Battlefield are immense and are players going to want to play a bare bones FPS compared to one of these dedicated games?  What about hit detection? Latency? Is there bullet penetration? Is there zero-g corridor combat and if so how does the player manoeuvre in the environment?

And what about progression? Having FPS and Starship combat essentially creates two progression trees for ships and equipment. How to balance all of that out and make it interesting and engaging? How to balance ship purchases vs personal combat purchases? A starship should be more expensive than a kit of the best personal equipment.

By comparison look at Halo 4, a big budget AAA microsoft-backed shooter which was a dedicated FPS with a tacked on starship section. Great shooter but fairly mediocre starship combat. If a game this big can achieve only as much as that, how can a brand new indie studio achieve so much more?

Yes it's possible that the game can be finished if Roberts learned enough management from the previous set of games.   Specifically if his apparently bad management and over ambition is outweighed by the available money. Though personally I find the blatant whale hunting to be rather disreputable.  Asking players to pay 2700 USD for a fleet pack is as worse as any free to play garbage and makes some EA's previous transgressions look saintly.  And if they're hunting for whale players before the game is even out it casts a pretty poor light on the spirit  of the game to come in my opinion.

And then on the side there's also the danger that games like No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous could introduce gameplay that Roberts feels must be put into Star Citizen, thereby expanding the scope even further. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 29, 2015, 02:15:21 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.

This is not an insignificant obstacle. Witness the fact EVE Online was unable to overcome it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on September 29, 2015, 02:44:47 am
And then on the side there's also the danger that games like No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous could introduce gameplay that Roberts feels must be put into Star Citizen, thereby expanding the scope even further. 

This is already happening, to an extent. Elite's next update, Horizons, will introduce a character creator, planetside gameplay and multicrew ships. Neither of which is as ambitious as what SC is planning (there doesn't seem to be anything even remotely resembling FPS gameplay in there, for example), but unlike CIG, Frontier has a working base game and a design team that has an idea of what they're doing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 29, 2015, 04:01:40 am
Yeah it looks like the ED team is being a lot more intelligent on their managing the developing of their game.

It must suck to slowly watch your dream game being done by every other developer than yourself, while you got the biggest paycheck and everyone paying attention to you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: TrashMan on September 29, 2015, 10:16:47 am
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

It was a good game.


Quote
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.

you have poor judgment.

The gameplay was fine, the graphics were nice, the atmosphere was there.
The story was nothing to write home about, but so few are.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on September 29, 2015, 07:27:07 pm
Have to wonder if crowd funding existed in 90's it would have been the same thing with Freelancer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on September 29, 2015, 09:50:12 pm
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

It was a good game.


Quote
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.

you have poor judgment.

The gameplay was fine, the graphics were nice, the atmosphere was there.
The story was nothing to write home about, but so few are.

Posts like this make me wish it wasn't an abuse of moderator power to warn people for having poor taste and wrong opinions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 30, 2015, 05:39:36 am
you have poor judgment.
You have poor taste.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 30, 2015, 05:59:33 am
And how can you tell you are not the one with poor taste here? :) Maybe in a decade, Starlancer will be rediscovered and hailed as a refined classic of videogame writing (don't worry if it doesn't have deeped meanings, they'll find some to tack on)? :)

I don't know about Starlancer, having never got around to playing it (gotta finally find that disk...), but I know Roberts' games are enjoyable if you can appreciate his style. He's no Dostoyewsky, sure, but both Wing Commander and Freelancer were fun experiences. That a story isn't fit to be analyzed in school (or in academia) doesn't mean it's not worth reading.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 30, 2015, 06:09:00 am
i agree that chris roberts' writing is being sold short by elitists like aesaar, for instance if you examine the backstory to star citizen closely you can pick up hints that it's actually a subtle metaphor for the fall of the roman empire
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 30, 2015, 06:44:28 am
Are you suggesting Star Citizen is smart enough for its writing that it's giving everyone of us subtle hints of its own impending implosion?

Regardless, that's not a signal of good writing, it seems quite bland and unoriginal. Even the Napoleon imperator thingy reeks of cheesy ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:31 am
Its not even subtle, Vanduul = Vandals. I bet there will be a sack of Earth or Terra by the Vanduul, either in Squadron 42 campaign or later on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 30, 2015, 09:36:55 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.

This is not an insignificant obstacle. Witness the fact EVE Online was unable to overcome it.

EVE Online Walking in stations is still a small room after what, 10 years of development?. So I dont think they ever made any serious effort to overcome the obstacles before giving up on it. They are content with point and click gameplay. On the other hand, first person perspective is a core feature of SC. FPS gameplay in SC will be merely an expansion of something that is already an important part of the game. And I think with $90 million in funds, some expansion of features is warranted.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on September 30, 2015, 09:56:52 am
Posts like this make me wish it wasn't an abuse of moderator power to warn people for having poor tnd wrong opinions.

Frame it as you cracking down on people who are aggressively pushing their own opinions in an attempt to troll others :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on September 30, 2015, 11:19:47 am
I haven't played Starlancer, and I know very little about Freelancer's development, but I think Freelancer is a fine game. Even with the dated graphics, the environments are often beautiful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on September 30, 2015, 11:38:43 am
I have an eternal thirst for open-world space games.

In the past, this void was filled by, in chronological order: Battlezone 1998 (not because hovertanks but because other planets), retail FS1, Starlancer, Freelancer, EVE, FSO, X3, KSP, and now Elite Dangerous.

I bought into the Star Citizen kickstarter.... what, was it 2013 still? I haven't been closely following the dev cycle, but what I've been reading and hearing on the "idea" front has not been lining up with where development has actually gone. A couple months ago, I could load up the hangar module and play with my pledge Aurora, but not actually do anything. Not long after that, E:D backers could actually go out and sail the black and do things.

Consider me a fallen Chris Roberts fan. I played the **** out of Freelancer; for all its flaws, I still got a big kick out of just cruising space and causing trouble. Starlancer struck me as markedly flawed even when I was a kid, but I had limited access to new games and it let me explode things in space. Watching SC's development shamble forward against numerous competitors while showing no meaningful milestones of its own has drained any confidence I may have had. (Preemptive: step off, I'm not talking arena commander, I'm talking about the core gameplay experience of going out into open space and, you know, *being* a Citizen of the Stars.)

I know I'm not breaking new ground here, but I wanted to add another perspective to this conversation. A perspective that really tries hard to find the best in things and really tries to have fun in spite of flaws. Christ Roberts' fumbling is making me seriously consider rescinding my backing, if I can. Maybe I can upload a video of me burning my citizen card...

While Christ Roberts blows millions of dollars on deciding how impactful a Player-Character's blinking needs to be on gameplay, I'll be busy Elite-ing it up, hurling Kerbals at distant worlds, or plowing through FSO's endearing bugs and quirks. Thus sprach IronBeer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on September 30, 2015, 12:26:38 pm
This (http://www.develop-online.net/news/star-citizen-single-player-will-have-top-level-movie-cast/0211861) might explain where a large sum of the money is going to...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 30, 2015, 12:29:21 pm
Yep, we were just making fun of that on IRC. If CR wants to make games as a substitute for his failed film career he should just found a studio with David Cage.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on September 30, 2015, 01:52:54 pm
CR would have been better off just focusing on SQ42. I would have just liked single player space sim with a good story like Freespace. It not like he couldn't have done a second crowd funding campaign to add multiplayer if SQ42 was successful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 30, 2015, 05:17:19 pm
Agreed. Especially with all-star cast that he promises. Really, say what you will about WC3, but you can't deny its FMVs were excellent. They even had friggin' Luke Skywalker. :) This continued into WC4 and (to a somewhat lesser extent) WCP. Squadron 42 should be the focus, with "old-timey" FMVs (made with modern filming technology, of course), story as good as that of WC4 and pretty in-game graphics. Remember the original Wing Commander 3 CDs that were labeled "Origin Interactive Movie"? :) That's what I would aim at.

I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 30, 2015, 07:44:32 pm
I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.

Tex Murphy already did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fubvpa5w0ps
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 30, 2015, 08:48:12 pm
And how can you tell you are not the one with poor taste here? :) Maybe in a decade, Starlancer will be rediscovered and hailed as a refined classic of videogame writing (don't worry if it doesn't have deeped meanings, they'll find some to tack on)? :)
Because by this point, Trashman is pretty much HLP's meme for bad taste, and he never ceases to demonstrate how warranted that reputation is.

As for you?  Well, you said this and actually meant it:
It's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.
It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution.  I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do.  It genuinely astounds me.

Starlancer's story is a lazy, cliched transposition of the WW2 Pacific theater (IN SPACE!) while treading no new ground and managing to say absolutely nothing interesting with its narrative.  TBH, that describes WC as well, but WC, for all its faults, at least had ok characters. Starlancer doesn't even have that.  It's a boring story coupled with endless escort missions and four-point patrols.  It takes the worst bits of CR games and none of the decent bits.

i agree that chris roberts' writing is being sold short by elitists like aesaar, for instance if you examine the backstory to star citizen closely you can pick up hints that it's actually a subtle metaphor for the fall of the roman empire
I love how no one recognized PH's sarcasm here.


Agreed. Especially with all-star cast that he promises. Really, say what you will about WC3, but you can't deny its FMVs were excellent. They even had friggin' Luke Skywalker. :) This continued into WC4 and (to a somewhat lesser extent) WCP. Squadron 42 should be the focus, with "old-timey" FMVs (made with modern filming technology, of course), story as good as that of WC4 and pretty in-game graphics. Remember the original Wing Commander 3 CDs that were labeled "Origin Interactive Movie"? :) That's what I would aim at.

I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
Nope, pretty sure CR already said SQ42 is mocap the whole way.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 01, 2015, 02:04:12 am
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 01, 2015, 06:02:39 am
As for you?  Well, you said this and actually meant it:
It's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.
It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution.  I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do.  It genuinely astounds me.
Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab at people like you literary critics who consider everything that is not a bizarre philosophical tract to be utter crap (I do not believe I got a chance of responding to that properly in that thread). Being deep and thoughtful is fine, but it doesn't mean a work is well written (i.e. actually fun to read). In retrospect, I probably should have gone ahead with my original idea of defining literary value as the amount of Jesuses in purgatory that you can find in a given work, but I didn't want to count on you frequenting TVTropes. People who grade books on "literary value" are the people who miss out on a lot of genuinely fun reads.
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would truly capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general (though some come close). SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. Anything that would require flashy FX should be done in-engine anyway, with player actively participating, IMO. Actors should be used where we see the characters interact and emote.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 06:04:50 am
This thread should be renamed to something like "Star Citizen: This Week in Stupid", where we discuss the latest facepalms and laugh at them.

I mean, I don't like to see money burn, but at least I can laugh at it. And no, I didn't recognize PH's sarcasm. He's refined his art. (although I'm smugly smiling at Aesaar's jab at our lack of sarcasm detectors working properly next to Dragon's reply above).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 01, 2015, 06:28:12 am
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general. SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. FX should be done in-engine.

I'll wave Crysis 3 in your face then. And The Last Of Us, Uncharted, GTA 5, MGS 5, Red Dead Redemption quite a few other titles. The problem FMVs have, always have had and always will have is that the actors will always be disconnected from the surroundings they're bluescreened into. If you keep everything in-engine (even if you use the engine and in-game assets to prerecord it), you get a cohesiveness that is far more valuable to the overall feeling of a game than tiny nuances of an actors' performance ever could be.

See here:



Now, compare those cutscenes, which all integrate very seamlessly into their respective games and which do not drag you out of the flow of the game's storytelling because suddenly everyone's gone all real human, with this:

(http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2014/08/wingcommander3_2-100367937-orig.jpg)

See how the lighting on Hamill, even in this static shot, seems disconnected from the background?
Sure, we could do this better today. But consider this: SC is supposed to be a seamless experience, or at least as seamless as they can manage. The NPCs you're going to interact with will all be 3D modelled. Everything will run through CryEngine's lighting model. Adding a few NPCs which are FMV limits everything. You can, for example, never show them actually interacting with you, or else it would become immediately apparent that you're not as real as they are. You can never put them into a 3D space that the player can navigate.

Now, if you're just doing a remake of Wing Commander 3, with static screens playing the role of the ship you're supposedly living and working on, sure, do FMVs. The limitations of that form won't be as relevant there. But for Star Citizen, that is not going to work. Think about it: Here's Star Citizen's crown jewel, Squadron 42. Play as an intrepid space pilot, an elite fighter of the Empire ... who can never move around on the carrier. Who is apparently carted around to stand in a few select places and forced to look in one direction while people talk at him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 01, 2015, 09:51:07 am
Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab at people like you literary critics who consider everything that is not a bizarre philosophical tract to be utter crap (I do not believe I got a chance of responding to that properly in that thread). Being deep and thoughtful is fine, but it doesn't mean a work is well written (i.e. actually fun to read). In retrospect, I probably should have gone ahead with my original idea of defining literary value as the amount of Jesuses in purgatory that you can find in a given work, but I didn't want to count on you frequenting TVTropes. People who grade books on "literary value" are the people who miss out on a lot of genuinely fun reads.
Here's what you don't get: just because I can differentiate between a good story and one that's fun but mindless doesn't mean I can't appreciate the latter.  It isn't a black-and-white "the only stories worth reading/watching/playing are the ones that are smart and able to actually say interesting things about the themes they address".  Hell, I genuinely like WH40k. 

I draw the line when the story happens to be boring, predictable, and poorly written, and that's where you'll see **** like Starcraft 2 and Starlancer, and to a lesser extent, the Wing Commander games.  At least the Wing Commander games were among the first to handle storytelling in a modern manner, but Starlancer came after Freespace 2 and the Star Wars sims and had no such excuse for its mediocrity.  Neither did Freelancer, but at least it did something new in places that weren't story.

I know what you meant with the blurb I quoted.  I remember that thread.  And your attitude there and here are exactly why I say that the pride you take in your ignorance is something I'm powerless to understand.

This thread should be renamed to something like "Star Citizen: This Week in Stupid", where we discuss the latest facepalms and laugh at them.

I mean, I don't like to see money burn, but at least I can laugh at it. And no, I didn't recognize PH's sarcasm. He's refined his art. (although I'm smugly smiling at Aesaar's jab at our lack of sarcasm detectors working properly next to Dragon's reply above).
I picked up on it because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bp, and PH is as merciless as I am.  He also enjoys taunting me into ranting about how SC is a really ****ty look at the fall of the Roman Empire because I've got a history degree and that's my area of expertise.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 11:16:11 am
I think we can update my suggestion at the thread's name to "dally ****storms"

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company

****ing hell. Just. ****ing. Hell. I kinda predicted here that this was the environment they were in, but I had no idea of how much.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 12:20:23 pm
To be fair, disgruntled employees are hardly an unbiased source of information.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 12:35:59 pm
No it isn't, but the article does contain other information like funding a crowd source platform, teams quitting, alleged misdirection of funds, etcetera. That's the more interesting side of things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 12:47:46 pm
CR's response is to assert that everyone involved is actually Derek Smart and then proceed with the most redundant character assassination in gaming history. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 01, 2015, 01:08:36 pm
Lot of damage being done to RSI. This is bad news for them because any prospective backers will back away as far as they can from this game if there is the slightest doubt it'll ever be released or there's hints that the company isn't doing well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 01:13:44 pm
Assassinating Derek Smart's character isn't hard to do though...

He does provide the answers to the accusations. That's important. Here's one tidbit that was quite jarring to me though:

Quote
We feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.

"have completed... a *GOOD PORTION* of the underlying technology ... that *WILL* enable us to make SC..."
Amazing. Incredible. Fall 2015 and they still don't have the "underlying technology" that enables them to make the ****ing game. Jesus ****ing Christ.


Lastly... the guy admits he spent eight hours writing this screed. He's sperging.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 01, 2015, 01:23:55 pm
Assassinating Derek Smart's character isn't hard to do though...

He does provide the answers to the accusations. That's important. Here's one tidbit that was quite jarring to me though:

Quote
We feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.

"have completed... a *GOOD PORTION* of the underlying technology ... that *WILL* enable us to make SC..."
Amazing. Incredible. Fall 2015 and they still don't have the "underlying technology" that enables them to make the ****ing game. Jesus ****ing Christ.

They have been pretty clear that the Large World engine is not ready for prime time yet, I dont think thats exactly news.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 01:26:32 pm
Yes, that is true, I think it was mentioned here as well, it was just "official news" to me, because I hadn't heard it before, officially. It's crazy to me that CR would even admit to it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 01:42:43 pm
Chris Roberts responded to the escapist and the article has been updated:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 01:54:51 pm
Yikes, seems that really got to him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 01:58:00 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2015, 01:58:30 pm
because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bp
Funny, we do this in #wod-dev as well. It's a pretty fun activity~ 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 01, 2015, 02:03:03 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.

On the other hand, seeing the escapist publish the ravings of said clown would be enough to piss me off if it was aimed at me. Not because of Smart, but because the Escapist is still a website people read.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 02:04:09 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:11:24 pm
Yes this is a second article which draws its sources from 5 or more alleged employees and ex-employees. The Derek smart article was the previous one and this new information has come to their attention because of it.
Funnily enough people are still complaining about derek smart in the comments even though it doesn't mention him at all
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 01, 2015, 02:13:05 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 01, 2015, 02:18:07 pm
Should have just let a PR person handle it, what is CR doing?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 02:22:00 pm
Should have just let a PR person handle it, what is CR doing?

Letting his emotions get the better of his judgment.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 01, 2015, 02:23:56 pm
It's still a problem that Derek's attention whoring is taking this guy's attention away from making his awesome space game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:46:31 pm
Holy **** I only read the "Greetings Citizen" part, I didn't see the part below it where Chris Roberts starts attacking the article writer.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

"I’m also pretty concerned that your reporter on this is compromised and pursuing her own agenda. For someone who is a self-acclaimed Gamer Gate supporter, which last I checked was about ethics in video game journalism, she’s not been behaving or going about her business like an ethical reporter."

"This is directed at a self-avowed feminist"

" I don’t know Liz’s personal life (nor do I care to) but based on the picture of her in “Bandit’s” tweet it is not a stretch to assume there is either a close relationship between Liz and “Bandit” or they are potentially one and the same."


Even this statement seems peculiar:
Accusations of entering into a joint venture partnership with Turbulent, and using crowdfunding money in order to assist with the continued creation of the crowdfunding platform that was used on the RSI website to market to other companies.

In response:
CR: The opposite is true. CIG benefited from pre-existing software that Turbulent had developed. Our JV with them allowed us access to cheaper rates and bound an important part of Star Citizen closer to CIG, which are both beneficial to CIG and the backers. Per our agreement Turbulent is of course free to offer their technology to other customers.

The opposite of what is true?  The guy from Turbulent said:
"We thank Cloud Imperium Games for taking a risk with us and for contributing conceptually and commercially to making HEAP C3MS fantastic for content monetization."


Can you contribute "conceptually" to "pre-existing" software? Is using someone's software considered "taking  a risk"? 
Seems to me like someone is lying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2015, 02:46:55 pm
DEREK SMART
DEREK SMART
DEREK SMART
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 02:49:29 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.

And he has absolutely no evidence of that. It's completely dishonest and it smacks of desperation.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:53:34 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.

And he has absolutely no evidence of that. It's completely dishonest and it smacks of desperation.

It's even amusing how in his response letter he talks about Derek in his wing commander days, bad mouths BC3000, etcetera and so forth.  Attacks the reporter. Attacks Derek Smart. Attacks the credibility of the informants.
Doesn't seem to mention that some of DSmart's games have scored as well or higher than his own projects like Starlancer.  I wonder if the success of Wing Commander is due to being at Origin with Garriot, and man whose games are arguably always improving and always getting finished.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 04:03:27 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 01, 2015, 04:57:35 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 05:31:38 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.

That's a horrendous attitude
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 06:00:25 pm
thankfully it's incredibly unlikely that star citizen will succeed
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on October 01, 2015, 06:00:58 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.

That's a horrendous attitude

Star Citizen at present course will never succeed.  Wishing eternal life on someone does seem pretty terrible though.

e:f;b
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 06:44:52 pm
Incidentally on the subject of Derek smart, this article is an interesting read. Though it is a few years old:

http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/14/3553620/the-redemption-of-derek-smart

Apologies if it may have been linked in this thread already, I can't recall how I came across it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on October 01, 2015, 10:31:54 pm
Quote
"A lot of people who don't know me, who don't play my games think I've failed and I don't care," Smart says. "When I look at my bank account, I just laugh."

stopped right there
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 01, 2015, 10:50:04 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.

Yeah, that's the bit to tends to make me sit up and take notice. If I was being accused of racism, ageism and a whole host of other very bad behaviour, my last problem would be whether the game was going to come out on time or not. And the thing is, such claims could easily be proved false. If they said things about emails I'd sent I'd challenge them to publish those emails (or at least send them to The Escapist and give me right of reply). Since those would be very easily proved as not true, I'd go after them first in the hope that I could discredit the rest of the article by association with such obvious lies.


What I would definitely not do is make a personal attack on the journalist concerned, cause that pretty much confirms the whole "Eye of Sauron" thing they were talking about.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 01, 2015, 11:34:17 pm
Welp, going to say that regardless of the drama (and the rough shod, slow, and inebriated pace of StarCitizen) my faith in the CIG has pretty much evaporated. Currently, the Escapist is taking heat for a charged (and possibly in bad faith article), Derek Smart lets loose like a volley of cannon, and Chris Roberts just doused himself in oil and lit the fuse.

Idiocy in, idiocy out, but given my swaying attitudes and I will confess to initially giving Derek Smart some credence to his claims, my faith in StarCitizen has long since waned and this is the final nail in the coffin. Personally, I think the allegations are hollow since they seem for verbatim taken from Glassdoor, but given Robert's conducts? He's pretty stupid and crude. Overall, just a parade of egoes and mistakes turning into a mess to the point I don't know what to make of it anymore.

But either way, StarCitizen is dead to me.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 01:36:40 am
Those emails are personal correspondence with employees, publishing them would be unethical. What Chris could do is to publish screenshot of SC bank account. There was a specific claim made, that only $ few million of backer money remains. It would be easy to falsify, and that would cast doubt on other information from these sources.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 02, 2015, 02:33:49 am
Like I said, I consider the claim of racism, abuse of staff, etc to be much more important. Very few of the staff would have a complete understanding of the companies finances, so it wouldn't discredit the rumours that much if they were wrong but could make a believable story about what they'd heard. You can easily say "I'd heard we had very little money left" and then justify that as being because of some other kind of malfeasance (We have little money, so no Christmas bonuses, you'll get them Christmas 2014 after the game is out). But if you claim someone sent you an abusive email and you can't produce it......

Those emails are personal correspondence with employees, publishing them would be unethical.

If someone claims you said something in an email to them, it is in no way unethical to challenge them to publish that email. If they aren't willing to show an email that they claimed said something, they shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place. And it's not like you aren't asking them for permission, by challenging them to produce the email you've put the onus on them to back up their claims.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 02, 2015, 02:42:30 am
Yeah, as has been mentioned in this thread already, it would be trivial for CIG and CR to defeat these accusations (well, maybe not exactly trivial when it comes to things like accounting statements, but you get the idea). That they haven't, that they've decided to go on the attack and try to discredit the reporter and the article instead, that's kinda worrying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 02, 2015, 04:24:00 am
And it was by Chris himself, wherein such a task would probably demand the PR guy to deliver a much more contained version of that screed. As it stands, we get a glimpse of Chris' demeanour and character, which kinda resonates with the picture that the Escapist's article reports on.

My only doubts now reside on the speed of the downfall.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 04:26:51 am
You are assuming that the sources have the emails. The way I understood it, these sources are claiming to be memories of alleged former employees, so they probably do not have any access to CIG internal communications anymore, and its just "he said, she said" situation. In addition to that, these emails may contain personal information about other employees, not just about sources themselves, and it would indeed be unethical and unprofessional to publish them without agreement of everyone involved. Especially if the emails may contain some criticism of employee performances. You dont just publish internal comms because someone said you are racist with no evidence to back it up..

And in the end, the accusation about only $8 million of backer money remaining is much more serious, IMHO, because it would kill the whole project and could be an indication of fraud. Thats what CIG should concentrate on, and would also be easy to disprove. In fact, it would be a good idea to publish a rough overview of CIG expenses, it is one area where CIG is strangely silent, even tough rest of the development is pretty open.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 02, 2015, 04:52:39 am
I do think the accusations of sexism and racism are very important. The Escapist phrases it as something they didn't have their own eyes at it. They should have been more cautious about those, and if they still thought it was an important fact to state, they should have totally caveated that **** out with innumerous adjectives.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 02, 2015, 05:32:12 am
You are assuming that the sources have the emails. The way I understood it, these sources are claiming to be memories of alleged former employees, so they probably do not have any access to CIG internal communications anymore, and its just "he said, she said" situation. In addition to that, these emails may contain personal information about other employees, not just about sources themselves, and it would indeed be unethical and unprofessional to publish them without agreement of everyone involved. Especially if the emails may contain some criticism of employee performances. You dont just publish internal comms because someone said you are racist with no evidence to back it up..

And once again, you simply challenge them to give you permission to post the full emails then. You seem to be missing my point that I'm saying you get permission from the source to open this up.

Sure they may mention other employees in some of the emails, but if you're going to claim that every single abusive email mentions someone else, your credibility is going to go down a lot.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 02, 2015, 11:23:16 am
For me, the tipping point in this whole mess is the childish tantrum that Chris Roberts threw and personal attacks against the journalist in question.

Now Roberts maybe under stress, or dealing with personal stuff and made a very bad mistake by pretty much up opening the sluice gates and letting out pent up frustration.

But that doesn't excuse him from acting like an idiot - instead of a response "We think these are claims that need to be addressed..." he flipped his lid, attacked the journalist, Derek Smart, and did little to assuage the situation.

And so it fuels the speculation and claims against him and the StarCitizen brand. And the fanbois? Oh boy, this is why I left the SC forums long ago because of the cultist thuggery for anyone challenging the Pope Chris Roberts. What the current mess reveals is that rather than a measured response, it's like watching people figure skating with enraged bears and expecting an Olympic performance.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 11:25:09 am
I feel like this whole thing is a manufactured controversy, like Benghazi or this latest planned parenthood thing.  There was never any truth to it, it's just people trying to piss on other people's work.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 02, 2015, 12:24:09 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 02, 2015, 12:41:52 pm
If we leave aside the accusations of racism, sexism, hostile work environments, all of that crap that will always devolve to he-said-she-said, we're still left with enough stuff that should be easy for CR and CIG to disprove. All I want to see at this point is some progress that isn't tied to making new jpgs for the store to sell. Some stuff about the mechanics of the universe. Indications that they got their flight physics figured out. Like, the nitty-gritty project management stuff. GANTT charts. Burndown stats. That sort of thing, regularly updated.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 12:42:48 pm
There's no truth that they've missed their deadlines?

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12734-Draft-FAQ

"Can you explain the stretch goals?"

"The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period. We intend to build the game that Chris Roberts described at GDC Online regardless, but without additional funding we are going to have to do it one piece at a time, starting with Squadron 42, rather than as a single larger production."

They've neither started with SQ42 nor finished within two years.  The current game and pricing is basically pay-to-win whale bait.

Another interview I found Chris Roberts says the team size at production end will be 60-70 people.  It's currently 261.  Take that as an indicator for what you will.  Part of the plan though was that increased money would allow the universe to be realized all at once, instead it's pushed everything back.

Like realistically.
This project is no longer a kickstarter. It's an Early Access game. The game is out, people are paying to play, some people are paying to play it with much better ships.  The company is already getting paid for their work what incentive do they have to finish it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 01:00:22 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.

I dont think any accusations were proven to be disturbingly accurate yet. Its all he said she said right now.

They did miss the deadline when it comes to Squadron 42, tough. However, missed deadline is not such a big deal. SC is a complex project, and it takes at least 4-5 years to develop an AAA game, there is no way around it. Nine women do not make a baby in one month. Two years was too optimistic, I expect at least another year and a half until the game approaches something which could be considered "finished". In the meantime, "baby persistent universe" featuring a single playable system as seen in Gamescom demo should be out before the end of the year. It will be the point when the game comes together, instead of separate modules. We will be in a much better position to judge overall gameplay when that is released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:04:24 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.

I dont think any accusations were proven to be disturbingly accurate yet. Its all he said she said right now.

They did miss the deadline when it comes to Squadron 42, tough. However, missed deadline is not such a big deal. SC is a complex project, and it takes at least 4-5 years to develop an AAA game, there is no way around it. Nine women do not make a baby in one month. Two years was too optimistic, I expect at least another year and a half until the game approaches something which could be considered "finished". In the meantime, "baby persistent universe" featuring a single playable system as seen in Gamescom demo should be out before the end of the year. It will be the point when the game comes together, instead of separate modules. We will be in a much better position to judge overall gameplay when that is released.
Missing a deadline isn't a big deal, no.  Missing every deadline is.  Since the kickstarter, CIG have met precisely one deadline (the social module), and that's a deadline they set after they'd already missed it three times.  That in itself shows serious issues with management.

And the chances of them releasing a "baby PU" before the end of the year are utterly laughable.


Quote
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

Quote from: Adventure Pigeon, SA forums
"Hmmm... how do I calm the agitated masses and restore dignity to my game in this time of trouble"

*begins to type out the word 'Gamergate'*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 02:04:34 pm
On anonymous sources:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Escapist explains its sources, why Robert's response wasn't initially included, etcetera.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:31:06 pm
On anonymous sources:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Escapist explains its sources, why Robert's response wasn't initially included, etcetera.
I love the comments to that.  "Anonymous sources have no credibility. Put your name on it if you want someone to believe you.".  Yeah, what the hell is wrong with these people, not being willing to throw their careers away over this? 

The Escapist vetted those sources.  That should be enough.  Unless of course, you think The Escapist itself is biased against SC.  The only evidence for that is... the original article.

So The Escapist is biased against SC because they published an article that was negative about SC.  Naturally, the only unbiased opinion is that SC is the second coming of Jesus Christ Roberts.  Anything else is trolling and clickbait.

Not a cult.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 02, 2015, 02:35:04 pm
But but but Papal Infallibility!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 02:45:11 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:52:38 pm
Calling it a game is generous.  ATM it's an online store selling a couple of tech demos and 900$ jpegs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Standalone-Ships/Endeavor-Master-Set-LTI).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 03:03:40 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 03:08:09 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 04:11:35 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.

The primary goal of buying SC now is to fund development, and the primary goal of playing SC now is to help devs test the game and provide feedback. Not to win, not even necessarily to have fun. I expect any scores to be reset after 1.0 version of PU goes online and ship selling to cease. If that does not happen, you will have a point. But not before. I dont see anything scammy in what Star Citizen is doing, on the contrary, I wish more of my favourite games offered me a way to contribute to their development like that, even before they release the final version. Its simple - if you dont like it, or cant stomach the risk of failure, dont buy it (or buy it after release). Your comparison with MWO is fundamentally flawed, since its not development versions that were pay to win, but after release.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 04:23:42 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?

Is it out?  I only tried arena commander, and walked around my hangar a bit.  I'll let you know after they send me the email saying that Squadron 42 is ready and I have a chance to play.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.

The primary goal of buying SC now is to fund development, and the primary goal of playing SC now is to help devs test the game and provide feedback. Not to win, not even necessarily to have fun. I expect any scores to be reset after 1.0 version of PU goes online and ship selling to cease. If that does not happen, you will have a point. But not before. I dont see anything scammy in what Star Citizen is doing, on the contrary, I wish more of my favourite games offered me a way to contribute to their development like that, even before they release the final version. Its simple - if you dont like it, or cant stomach the risk of failure, dont buy it (or buy it after release).

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Most of the time you test a game, it's for balance purposes.  The cheap ship is completely outmatched by the higher priced ones. So how exactly are you testing for balance? 

Why aren't they testing the UEC earning progression?

Quote
Your comparison with MWO is fundamentally flawed, since its not development versions that were pay to win, but after release.

Oh yeah that makes a WORLD of difference. One game it's evil because it's released, one game it's saintly because it's "in development". What a load of horse****.
MWO was also a free game.

And do you honestly believe that store is going to go away once it's released?

Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?

Is it out?  I only tried arena commander, and walked around my hangar a bit.  I'll let you know after they send me the email saying that Squadron 42 is ready and I have a chance to play.

So what Derek Smart game did you play?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 02, 2015, 08:08:00 pm
I think in order for Star Citizen to actually succeed Chis Robert needs to be separated from the project, maybe he can still be a creative consultant but the game needs to be placed into the hands of someone who can actually set goals and meet them while also knowing what is and isn't feasible.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 11:43:50 pm

So what Derek Smart game did you play?

I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 03, 2015, 02:21:25 am

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Because they get more money that way? Duh. It is not for testing purposes only, it is also to fund the game. SC differs from other games because it is entirely backer-funded, and thats why even some borderline "money-grabbing" schemes are excused for them, as long as they dont continue into the final version. The more money they get, the better for the players, because it means they can cram more into the game. And as long as there are enough players to buy all the higher ships (which there are), it wont harm the testing efforts since every ship would get tested. Not to mention that there are often free flight weeks of specific ships, so that they do get tested by everyone. I only have a lousy Aurora, yet I have flown many other ships.

Quote

Most of the time you test a game, it's for balance purposes.  The cheap ship is completely outmatched by the higher priced ones. So how exactly are you testing for balance?


I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.

Quote

Why aren't they testing the UEC earning progression?



What is that? PU is not released yet, its hard to test something which doesnt exist yet..

Quote
Oh yeah that makes a WORLD of difference. One game it's evil because it's released, one game it's saintly because it's "in development". What a load of horse****.
MWO was also a free game.


Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.

Quote
And do you honestly believe that store is going to go away once it's released?

We will see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 03, 2015, 04:13:38 am

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Because they get more money that way? Duh. It is not for testing purposes only, it is also to fund the game. SC differs from other games because it is entirely backer-funded, and thats why even some borderline "money-grabbing" schemes are excused for them, as long as they dont continue into the final version. The more money they get, the better for the players, because it means they can cram more into the game. And as long as there are enough players to buy all the higher ships (which there are), it wont harm the testing efforts since every ship would get tested. Not to mention that there are often free flight weeks of specific ships, so that they do get tested by everyone. I only have a lousy Aurora, yet I have flown many other ships.
This is like saying that winning the lottery means your money troubles are over because you have more money than you ever needed before.  And yet there are plenty of examples of people spending themselves into debt because they had no idea how to manage that kind of money.  It's a very similar situation.  In this case, SC's success has led to an insane amount of feature creep, and combined with CR's crazy ambition and arrogance (if sources are to be believed), it's made CIG incapable of locking down exactly what they want to do with their game. 

This isn't opinion.  CR is the one who, a month ago, said that it was "still early days" and that's why he couldn't talk about the game's economy.  3 years and $90M in, and the basics of how players transfer will money to each other haven't been pinned down.  For a game in which trading and taking jobs is meant to be a significant part of gameplay.  Again, CR has no idea what he wants to do with this game.  And that's because his runaway success with crowdfunding has convinced him he can just constantly increase the scope of his game again and again and again.

This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money.  I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.

This letter (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/) is so worth reading.  It supports everything we've said here and have been saying since this thread was started 3 months ago.


I never thought I'd be on the same side of an issue as Akalabeth.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 03, 2015, 05:31:37 am
It's going to feel like Duke Nukem Forever again if this game does get released but doesn't live up to expectations. Only this time it'll be 90 mill wasted instead of 14 years.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 03, 2015, 06:08:50 am
This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money.  I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.
I'm afraid that I'm going to agree with you here as well. At this point, CIG seems like it has waaay too much money. They're rapidly approaching a 100M$ dollar budget. While it's not a government project (if it was, it'd be doomed for certain at this point), this is a classic example of "too much of a good thing". Coppola had the a similar situation during filming of Apocalypse Now. That took an absurd amount of time, but it panned out. His next move (also with way too much budget, and now also too much confidence in himself), however, did not. CR's crowdfunding success does put him in Coppola's situation when making that second movie. So, we might as well end up with both 100 million wasted and 14 years or so. At least it isn't being developed behind closed doors, so if/when something does get done, it will be playable anyway. Indeed, the only reason I'm still hopeful for the project is that it has a community that can give feedback both about development process and the game itself.

One thing we can be sure of. Even if it does get done eventually, it won't be anytime soon. So I remain hopeful, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on October 03, 2015, 12:23:20 pm
I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.

Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.

Bolded for emphasis.

Please enjoy your day off.  When you come back, let's have these discussions in good faith, okay?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 03, 2015, 01:16:31 pm
Well, I wanted a game that was like an updated or remake of Privateer.

But after 3 years, the problem is that Roberts has no idea to take it in a direction - because really, there needs to be an end to a means in a project. The original goal was quite simple - and something that Elite Dangerous pulled off quite well. They kept focus on what they deemed the right priorities. Sounds like Robert's is running from once fancy to the next.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 03, 2015, 01:37:44 pm
Honestly, I fail to see bad faith in his reasoning. At worst, confusion. He seems to be merely suggesting that "cheap ships" should play worse than "expensive ships" in a context of beta testing play, while that, in the final state of the game, it should be balanced.

As I said, at worst, confusion (for obvious reasons), or wishful thinking cognitive dissonance.

Regardless, this thread is already going in circles, perhaps let's wait for more news to discuss? I'm sure we will know some in the next few days (according to trends!)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 03, 2015, 06:53:08 pm
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 03, 2015, 07:17:24 pm
Crowdfunding's something of a legal frontier at this stage and projects are starting to be targeted with legal action for failing to deliver. If Star Citizen actually does fail, what publisher's going to risk taking on a $90 million potential liability?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 03, 2015, 11:28:30 pm

So what Derek Smart game did you play?

I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.

Oh curious how you formed an opinion of his development efforts despite having not played any of his games, yet you reserve judgement for Star Citizen. In either case apparently your experience in arena and walking around your hangar was not compelling enough to ensure your continued participation:

To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.

He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.

- - - - - -

All in all one must draw some comparisons between this campaign and a ponzi scheme.
Originally people were asked to donate 40 dollars or so. Now later on there are tons of high priced "packages" for people to buy into it, much like a ponzi scheme asks for investments and then later on asks for even greater investments with higher stakes (a better game).

One person I spoke with on the escapist alleges that Star Citizen's development scope and goals are not being based upon how much money they have, but rather upon how much money they're getting which to my mindset seems like a terrible way to conduct business.  Because #1 you're spending money based on a revenue source which is not at all guaranteed, and #2 undoubtedly the campaign to bring in more money will divert resources.  They'll be making assets to bring in money which is then used to both fund the development of the game and also create assets to bring in more money, like some sort of circular money pit.  Those same assets will undoubtedly be in the game but if they're potentially not designed for that purpose I wonder how well they'd integrate.   This same person alleged they had some healthy reserve of money to finish the game should crowd-funding ground to a halt but even so, that doesn't seem like a great management strategy.

That being said this is again coming from some reader of escapist, and as much as I've been in conflict with people here I think the readership of the escapist is about half as literate and a third as mature as any forum goer here.  One person for example tried to defeat the idea that CIG is racist because a video that came out yesterday had a black guy in it (very fortuitous timing), even though the actually allegation from the source was not that CIG did not hire black people, but rather that Sandi refused hiring a specific woman because she was black.  Also amusingly if you listen to the podcast, they also said that Sandi refused hiring a second woman because she was probably hairy in her nether regions if you can believe it.  But this is information from a disgruntled ex or current employee and is difficult to prove regardless, nor does it directly impact the production beyond the happiness of those working there.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 04, 2015, 01:25:58 am
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?
The way I see it, there are two things that would actively discourage a publisher from funding this the rest of the way: 1) most of the people who can reliably be expected to buy the game have already done so, and if CIG needs a publisher's help, most of the money from that is gone.  2) that isn't $90M of sales, it's $90M of debt.  Debt which the publisher would need to take on to finalise the game.  And if it can't be done, they'd probably need to pay a lot of that money back.

To me, it just doesn't look like there's enough profit to be made for a publisher to want to save this game.

EDIT: I thought this was a good enough post to warrant being posted here:

Quote from: RuckusRouser, Something Awful SC thread
Someone brought up a point a few pages back that was mostly glossed over but very important, especially for all the people wondering about SC's money.

In the BattleTech kickstarter they are asking for $1M worth of funding just to add a single-player campaign to an already internally paid for PC-port of a boardgame. The game ruleset will more than likely be just a modern version of a game that is literally decades old, so most design and balance is done, or at least enough to provide a foundation. Yet, they still know it takes $1M and ~1.5 years (projected release of May 2017) to simply add a campaign. Why? Because their studio has made games in the past few years and knows how expensive modern game development is. They won't even have voice acting until $1.35M and multiplayer until $2.5M.

Compare and contrast this to Chris Roberts, whose most recent game, Freelancer, was released 9 years prior to when he launched his kickstarter. Also keep in mind that he had to be forced out of his position as studio lead in 2000 because the project was overbudget and overdue, so the replacement leads completed the game. Roberts' most recent management experience of a game was 12 years prior to the SC kickstarter. [and it was a complete failure -Aesaar]

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


Roberts is a person who not only has a record of being unable to manage development funds, but also proves that he has no idea what modern game development entails. Of all the things the Escapist article touched upon, the most important point with relevance to the sustainability of the project is the $8M figure. (Note: I am not saying that the points about a toxic work environment and business ethics are unimportant, just that they have less bearing on the project's life than the finances)

In his crazy rant he brings up in-depth counterpoints to the article, although he only gets to that after the ad-hominem attacks. When it comes to debunk the talk about the project's finances his main thrust is:

"We always keep a healthy cash reserve and operate our business prudently based on the incoming revenue."


That is it, he then drops the subject with no elaboration. This was his chance to go into detail with regards to their financial situation and assuage the fears of any doubters or disbelievers about what matters the most. I cannot understand how anyone can have any faith in this "savior of PC gaming" with his past record of mismanagement in light of the rumors of current mismanagement.



EDIT 2: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

TL;DR: The Escapist has to issue an apology and retract their article, or CIG will sue them.

SPACE COURT!  Just when I thought this whole thing had reached peak comedy, there's more.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 04, 2015, 03:08:29 am
And whose money will be used to sue the Escapist? Hmmm.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 04, 2015, 05:33:45 am
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claim, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 04, 2015, 11:22:30 pm
Is that what passes for a legal document these days?  Including snide remarks and jabs? ie roughly 'we're going to give you 24 hours, the same amount of time you generously gave us'. Like really? It's like reading a legal document written by someone in grade school.  Why are they so eager to air their dirty laundry, why not simply say we're demanding they retract the article or we'll take them to court?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 04, 2015, 11:52:26 pm
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claims, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them. 

Same deal if they're bluffing.  It'll look like they're not confident enough about their side of the story to actually follow through on litigation.  It'll also make them look like Derek Smart.

And even if they win, all that does is dispel the drama from the last week or so.  All the stuff we've talked about in this thread?  This wouldn't address those issues at all.  CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 05, 2015, 12:37:13 am
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 05, 2015, 01:50:33 am

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


This is not true, 500k was merely the kickstarter goal and it was added later on for those who did not want to pledge through official site.

The original plan was to earn at least $2 million from crowdfunding, which would have proven there is interest in this game and then there were investors lined up who would fund SC up to $20 million. Star Citizen was always supposed to be quite expensive.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 05, 2015, 04:57:20 am
TBH it'd have been better for them to barely get over 2 mil and nothing more because investors know how to make sure someone knows what they want and to do it, whereas nerds just know how to give up their money in exchange for jpegs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 05:29:21 am
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.

I like how "Rolling Stone job" is a thing now :D.

This could be right. It could also be, IMO, merely intimidation to prevent further articles on Star Citizen to come about, not just by the Escapist (who seemed to be on a roll), but by others who were starting to notice and share these problematic leaks.

I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 06:04:32 am
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them.

You aren't actually saying anything that different from the point I was making when I said they'd regret it. While The Escapist doesn't need to prove their innocence, a court case actually gives them a very big club to go after CIG with. They can now call witnesses and make them testify under penalty of perjury, etc. They might be able to make public records that before they would have avoided doing so. There was a discussion earlier on this thread about how publishing certain emails might be unethical. That goes away when you're using those same emails to defend yourself in court.

That said, if CIG can prove that this was a case of unethical reporting, if it was a Rolling Stone job (Yes, I agree this should become a thing) then they absolutely should sue. If they're really not guilty on all counts, they'd have nothing to worry about. But if Luis is correct and they are trying an intimidation tactic, it could backfire on them spectacularly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 05, 2015, 06:13:18 am
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.

Also, bonus popehat (https://popehat.com/2015/10/04/in-space-no-one-can-hear-you-threaten-lawsuits/)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 06:35:41 am
I don't think they are "true". The Id cards are genuine, what the SC community manager tried to say in his twitter was that these were some kind of "generic cards", not "id cards". IOW, they didn't prove these guys worked there.

But the problem is in the details. Let's not forget that these cards are specific. It's not that they alone prove they worked there, it proves they had access to cards built in the exact same manner. And they didn't just show the cards. They also showed pay stubs (?). And, apparently, they all looked the same. And there was also corroboration (for at least a few) by checking their LinkedIn accounts.

I see two possibilities of fakery here: either The Escapist is lying and fabricating everything (total fantasy fiction yey!), or all of these guys were highly coordinating between themselves, getting equal cards for each one, printing similar payment papers, forging LinkedIn accounts, etc.

I find both possibilities unlikely. I find the possibility that we are just witnessing disgruntled employees ranting about their last job some orders of magnitude more likely. It would also be consistent with the CIG saying "Well, they are absolutely exagerating everything and it doesn't surprises us, for they are disgruntled", or smth to that effect. But this simpler analysis isn't useful to sue the Escapist. One could speculate that these claims of forgery were "planted" in social media so they can porsue "investigations" of defamation, etc.  A lot harder to do if it's just "disgruntled people", although I don't believe any of these reactions were really "coordinated", it's just all happening with too much rage and in real time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 05, 2015, 07:34:44 am
Hmm, reading trough the SC's "Counsel Letter (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist)" (honestly, it's too ranty to be that), CIG claims that they do not issue their employees with ID cards at all.

Whoa?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 08:27:35 am
Read what I said, they claim that ID cards "do not exist", what really exists are merely key cards. They don't deny those exist, they just go "what id cards, pff there ain no id cards" and pretend that's enough clarity. It's not, it's sleazy deflection.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 12:19:51 pm
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.

Also, bonus popehat (https://popehat.com/2015/10/04/in-space-no-one-can-hear-you-threaten-lawsuits/)

Yeah but this article you're linking basically says that CR needs to prove that the escapist acted maliciously, not negligently.
Also kind of proves that the letter is full of ****, as the guy writing it is acting like a moron while at the same time CCing the head of a huge LA law firm.
Just seems like they're trying to scare and bully the escapist by suing them with their 90 million in crowd funding.

Hey maybe if this does go to court, CiG I can launch a new ship call the Adjudicator, pledges of which go directly to pay for their legal fees.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 12:33:45 pm
Not quite.
Quote
That means they'd have to prove actual malice to win a defamation case. Constitutional "actual malice" doesn't mean ill-will, as Freyermuth's letter seems to imply. It means knowledge that the statement is false, or reckless disregard for the truth — that is, publishing despite serious doubts about its truth. Cloud Imperium isn't going to satisfy that standard.


So the kind of negligence in the Rolling Stone case would qualify. CIG can also satisfy that standard IF The Escapist actually did act the way CIG claim they did (i.e working with Derek Smart and not anyone from their company). But given that it's incredibly unlikely that they did that, I tend to agree with Popehat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 12:45:07 pm
Yeah, getting funds to sue the Escapist might be troublesome for the very financials that they are accused of mismanaging....

Perhaps they could reach the internet and start a crowdfunding campaign.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 01:28:36 pm
Yeah, getting funds to sue the Escapist might be troublesome for the very financials that they are accused of mismanaging....

Perhaps they could reach the internet and start a crowdfunding campaign.

One SC backer who commented on gameinformer said roughly "At least if they go to court I will finally see some entertainment value for my dollar" hahahah.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 05, 2015, 01:43:04 pm
Well, I did think the Escapist screwed up, and Derek Smart is Derek Smart.

But Chris Roberts showed he can't be diplomatic, or willing to make a concerted effort at an olive branch for reassurance.

Derek Smart is an attention whore, but what this mess showed is that Chris Roberts is indeed off his rocker - legal threats over these allegations are not going to back up confidence. I think it adds more salts to the wounds - and I'm going to ask for a refund from Star Citizen. One thing I do agree with Derek Smart? Accountability, oh irony. And since Roberts wants to engage in a slap fight, he can do it without my pledge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 02:26:23 pm
Good luck with the refund. CiG has said they're not obligated to give refunds and only do so on a case-by-case basis.
I would not be surprised if their response is roughly "we're withholding our right to issue refunds at this time while the current legal situation is dealt with" or something to that effect because if they suddenly get 500-1000 people asking for refunds they're probably going to freak out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 05, 2015, 05:15:49 pm
Yeah, you have to threaten with legal action in regards to getting a refund - and as much as I hate to agree with Derek Smart - finagling the ToS and refunds is like adding salt to the wounds.

Currently writing an e-mail to them stating I find their behavior not only despicable, but actually motivates me NOT to sink anymore money in. Sure they'll ignore me, but at least I'll make my point to their idiocy clear: Chris Roberts, **** you and **** CIG for being douches.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 07:23:42 pm
The escapist responded to the threat and isn't backing down:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Update: The Escapist, notwithstanding Cloud Imperium Games' notice and posting, stands by its coverage of Star Citizen and intends to continue to investigate the developing story. Since publishing our original stories, we have been contacted by, and are currently interviewing, additional sources corroborating a variety of the reported allegations. Additionally, if Mr. Roberts' offer for The Escapist to "meet the developers making the game and see how we're building one of the most ambitious PC games first hand" remains open, we take the opportunity to accept such invitation so as to hopefully provide the public with sufficient information and opportunity to vet such sources' allegations and claims for themselves. We have also communicated the foregoing directly to Cloud Imperium Games.


As above they also apparently have additional sources they're in discussion with.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 09:17:47 pm
I think that was posted before CIG said they'd sue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 09:26:21 pm
The main article yes.
But not the update at the top.

You can see the article from the front page:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/

"The Escapists position on our Star Citizen story"

There was also a thread on reddit about the Escapist saying no to the redaction/apology, but for some reason it's gone.  Oh here it is:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3nn26d/sigh_escapist_are_not_backing_down_and_intend_to/

Says [removed]? I'm not familiar with reddit or how it works but guessing whoever is moderating it deleted the thread or removed it from the front page?

Other sites are reporting on the update as well:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2015/10/05/star-citizen-drama-continues-as-cig-threatens-legal-action-over-recent-article.aspx
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 09:40:00 pm
I'm pretty sure I saw the update before people on this thread started talking about the legal threat. And CR did publish a pretty epic rant first, and only then alter it into the threat to sue. I think this is pretty much a response to the first rant.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rheyah on October 06, 2015, 05:56:02 am
As someone who frequently struggles to finish large projects, I know well the travails of the over-promise.

Star Citizen could have been managed by me.  That is all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2015, 09:18:43 am
I'm pretty sure I saw the update before people on this thread started talking about the legal threat. And CR did publish a pretty epic rant first, and only then alter it into the threat to sue. I think this is pretty much a response to the first rant.

I'm under the impression that you are wrong and Akalabeth has the right timeline, but your certainty got me confused now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 06, 2015, 09:20:48 am
Kara is wrong. The Escapist's response to the first screed was to add it as commentary into the article.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 12:19:52 pm
There's an interview of a current employee put up yesterday:
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/10/star-citizen-interview-cig-employee-addresses-financial-allegations-project-concerns/

Though there's not much value in it, what the guy is not saying is more important than what he is and also I think his position within the company as videographer, documenting the process would segregate him from the raw realities on the working on the floor.


Incidentally, the front page animation has the words "I am a dream given form"? Ripping off Babylon 5 Star Citizen? Come on. Only Dream Given Form is a 5-mile long space station in neutral territory.  They might as well put "Boldly going where no game has gone before" on the front page as well.  :mad:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2015, 12:55:22 pm
Kara is wrong. The Escapist's response to the first screed was to add it as commentary into the article.

I don't know if you guys have noticed, but the text of the update on BOTH of these

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

is pretty much the same. I honestly can't say which one I read first but I'm really sure I read one of them before this comment on the thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1797078#msg1797078) by Aesaar where the first discussion of legal action against The Escapist appears. 

That said, it's a pretty minor point cause if The Escapist haven't changed it by now it obviously stands for their point of view regarding legal action regardless of whether or not it was written before that threat was made. I've only really bothered to try to argue when I saw the message in the hope someone else saw it at the same time I did and can prove to me that I wasn't imagining it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2015, 01:00:27 pm
@Akalabeth,

That's par for the course for an unimaginative hive of people doing an unimaginative mess of a game. And the more I look into it, into its art, into its culture, into its lore, the more I despise it.

It's not "derivative". That would be bad enough, but at least it would be defensible. No. It's pretensiously derivative. Now, brilliant works often are exactly like that, they "don't borrow but steal" ideas or concepts or other things from others and call it their own, but in order to pull that off, you have to do something brilliant yourself. You have to create your own culture.

And I'm not seeing that here. Just a collection of pastiche on top of pastiche shiny things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 01:08:28 pm
Here's the rough timeline as I understand it:
1. Escapist publishes article about Derek Smart
2. Week later, escapist publishes second article featuring interviews from CIG employees; Roberts response is lost int he spam folder (allegedly)
3. Roberts posts his reply and a 5-page response on Star Citizen
4. Article with CIG Employees is updated with relevant responses from Roberts
5. Following day, Escapist publishes article vetting their sources
6. Escapist discusses Star Citizen in a podcast and reveals additional information.
7. Star Citizen publishes a legal response / threat letter
8. Escapist updates the articles for the vetting and the employee interviews to include their response and position after the legal threats.  The vetting article is brought back onto the front page.

Derek Smart
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point

Employee Inteview
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company

Vetting Sources
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Podcast
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/57500-Crowdfunding-Podcast

Chris Robert's responses / Legal letter / etcetera:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on October 06, 2015, 01:42:59 pm
As someone who frequently struggles to finish large projects, I know well the travails of the over-promise.

Star Citizen could have been managed by me.  That is all.

You have my vote!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 06, 2015, 05:13:05 pm
In other news: CitizenCon rumors, courtesy of Beer4TheBeerGod, Something Awful thread, direct quote:

EDIT: Beer4TheBeerGod quoting Derek Smart.

Quote
1.They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that that stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away.
2.They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
3.They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
4.They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.

Holy ****. If they seriously don't release a single ****ing thing on Saturday, and instead just show a bunch of actors and demo **** with no timetable... yeah that's going to warrant a refund.

For reference, Beer4TheBeerGod is basically the SA insider to the Star Citizen community.  I don't mean he's a studio member, but he's a fairly prominent community member.  I don't think anyone else has had more questions answered by CR in the 10 For the Chairman videos, and not many people outside of CIG itself are better informed about the game at this point.  He's the same guy who wrote that huge list of questions I posted on the first page of this thread.

If these are true and CIG don't release anything at CitizenCon, that's just... wow.  Even I wasn't that pessimistic.  I at least thought they'd have managed to make a basic FPS out of CryEngine by now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 06, 2015, 05:46:22 pm
New Derek Smart blog post out: http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/star-citizen-the-endgame/ (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/star-citizen-the-endgame/)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 06:28:50 pm
That Derek Smart's a smart guy. Think his comments about Robert's "reply" are pretty apt with regards to it being an attempt to deflect attention from the issue by associating the escapist & its author with GG and/or Derek Smart.  The sad thing is that a lot of CIG supporters eat that **** up in spoonfuls.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 06, 2015, 08:18:02 pm
Much to my dismay
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 07, 2015, 01:43:02 am
That beer4thebeer "insider quote" is a direct transcript from Derek's blog.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 07, 2015, 02:08:33 am
Never said it was an insider quote.  I said Beer4TheBeerGod was SA's community insider.  As in he's a very well informed RSI community member who posts in the SA thread a lot.  If you have a serious question about SC, he'll answer it, provided the answer was given to the community at some point.  Saves the rest of us needing to go through the ****hole that is the RSI forums.

I missed the Derek Smart post, so I assumed he'd gotten it from someone on RSI.  Guess not.

But that it's Derek Smart posting it adds a lot of credibility.  He's been very accurate about short term CIG happenings.  All the recent departures/firings since Alex Mayberry were called by him long before CIG or even the people being fired mentioned anything.  He's clearly got people inside CIG feeding him information.

Quote from: Derek Smart
If what he said was true, that if funding stopped that he could still finish the game, go ahead and call him on that. STOP funding the project. Test him.
This is actually a very reasonable request.  Probably why the RSI cultists will never do it.  These are people who proudly bought ships for the explicit purpose of spiting Derek Smart and The Escapist.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 07, 2015, 03:46:42 am
I must admit I have for the longest time leant towards the Chris Roberts camp but after the Escapist article and some of the more analytical media coverage surrounding events, it is my sad position to find myself increasingly behind Derek's investigation and calls for information to be made public.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 07, 2015, 03:51:58 am
Well I read you (Aesaar) saying it was a quote from "this guy" who happens to be your SA "insider guy"... I was just clarifying though, I actually think Derek posted a very powerful blog post there. We are slowly reaching a moment of truth in SC....


Also. A 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS coffee machine? That's amazing. Absolutely "Next Gen" technological material right the **** there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 07, 2015, 03:54:29 am
For your information, there was no plan to release anything at CitizenCon, the con is only to show the progress, any releases were planned some time after the con. How soon that will happen is another matter, tough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 07, 2015, 04:23:28 am
Yeah, they're not releasing anything; it'll just be more demos. Which means they're doomed: the vultures are circling and they desperately need a decisive sign of progress.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 07, 2015, 04:27:38 am
For your information, there was no plan to release anything at CitizenCon, the con is only to show the progress, any releases were planned some time after the con. How soon that will happen is another matter, tough..
This would be a lot more compelling if, at Gamescom, CIG hadn't said they planned to release the FPS module before the end of September.  So you're right.  They didn't plan to release anything at CitizenCon.  They planned to release something before CitizenCon.  And they failed.

Just because it's become standard procedure to expect CIG to miss their own deadlines doesn't mean it isn't a bad sign.

CitizenCon would be the best place to release something.  That they aren't going to isn't because they don't want to, but because they can't.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on October 07, 2015, 07:07:50 am
Having backed at the very beginning and now looking at this mess is kinda frustrating. Whatever they promised during the first crowdfunding seemed reasonable and doable given a certain amount of funding. Now I see tons of promised features, many extended deadlines for whatever reason and way too much insulting coming from the CEO (seriously, why?) and his "enemies". Apparently they changed the terms of service and I have no rights for whatsoever anyway. As in CIG could blow it hard and then laugh at their backers.

What surprises me is that if I were a good german only reading german game news sites the world would be fine. Nearly all of them are in favour CIG and you are hard pressed to find criticism anywhere, be it in the articles or the comment sections.

At least I didn't sink much money in it and in the end I'll get my entertainement one way or another: Either I can play a game that at least fufills some of ambitions or I can watch the huge ****storm when all the convinced followers realize that they got tricked :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2015, 12:07:57 pm
Hey look at the brightside, just like Minecon if you attend Citizencon you will get an exclusive digital conent! But instead of a cape for your character, you'll get a digital poster for your Hangar!!

Except, unlike Minecon anyone who doesn't attend can also just poney up some more cash and buy it from the online store.


At this point if the financial rumours are true CIG should probably just double down on one module and get it finished and out the door so they can start selling it and bringing in some more money to finish the other modules.  Technically they're already sort of selling it anyway but if it's actually released and reviews at least mediocre it should bring in some more sales from those who want a finished product.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 07, 2015, 12:15:11 pm
Hey look at the brightside, just like Minecon if you attend Citizencon you will get an exclusive digital conent! But instead of a cape for your character, you'll get a digital poster for your Hangar!!

Except, unlike Minecon anyone who doesn't attend can also just poney up some more cash and buy it from the online store.


At this point if the financial rumours are true CIG should probably just double down on one module and get it finished and out the door so they can start selling it and bringing in some more money to finish the other modules.  Technically they're already sort of selling it anyway but if it's actually released and reviews at least mediocre it should bring in some more sales from those who want a finished product.

While it would stoke up the core supporter base, releasing a module given the current media climate which performs less than amazingly could easily do more damage than good as it would only serve to provide the detractors with a new salvo to aim back at the project.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2015, 01:09:35 pm
Or maybe Microsoft will buy out his company again, down-scale the graphics and throw it on xbox one to compete with PS4's No Man's Sky hahaha. That would be the height of irony.

Either way even if they focused on one finished module it probably would come out next year at the earliest when maybe it would have a better reception.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 09, 2015, 04:41:37 am
Beer4TheBeerGod is my hero.

Quote from: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5712126/#Comment_5712126
Quote
@Beer, let me underscore what i've arleady said - I've consider you to be well-spoken and often (though not always) forthright and honest.

I do believe you mistake "credibility" with "popularity" in regards to your presence and actions on the SA forums. Where I am challenged is that, even with the "goon glasses" on and understanding full well the operating culture of SA, your aggressive pursuit of damaging the game through your PSA for refunds, how to type them up to customer service, etc. smacks of deep hubris on your part in terms of maximum damage done to a group of people who are trying very hard to make a great game.

It's one thing to be opposed to an idea. It's completely understandable to be vocal and consistent with criticism of the developers(mad props for someone who can form and defend an opinion). I may support CIG more than you do, and I may have an easier time holding them to a more relaxed "be good, but I allow you to make mistakes" level of accountability than you do, but I don't begrudge you your perspective. I just don't agree with it.

I have been exceedingly consistent over the years in my strong belief in, and full support of CIG, I'm as passionate about my perspectives as you are yours. That's the nature of debate, varying opinions and value assessments, and all manner of things that differentiate people. Nothing wrong with your perspective. Equally, nothing wrong with mine. We are both likely right to degrees, and history will bear that out.

However ...

To aggressively pursue a plan to damage the funding of the game by enabling and encouraging backers to pursue refunds cannot be disguised - it is an agenda, by any name or  attempt to deflect it. It isn't feedback; it isn't discussion; it isn't strongly worded dissent. It is intended to do real damage, not only to CIG, but to the folks who work there and rely on employment to feed families' and I take extreme exception to it.

That is why I will be relentless to point this out and shed some light on the truth. It's nothing personal - I do sincerely like you, save this one character flaw that you are resistant to acknowledge and address. As such, I'm going to challenge you when you move out of the realm of intellectually honest debate, and into the fear mongering that furthers your agenda.

My agenda is to defend what is fair and right - that CIG be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that concrete evidence emerges and ends the debate - to avoid the fear mongering intended to do damage, from the suspect commentary from "anonymous CS1-CS7", from a story with a growing list of murky inconsistencies that to any reasonable adult throw the entirety of the hastily-assembled attack into severe question. It is much more plausible based on salient facts that the allegations are fabricated, inflated and enhanced versus the "evidence" that suggests all of the issues alleged. And Derek Smart - as it is universally accepted that he is among - if not the - worst game developers of all time with a terrible track record at success - to support him takes a certain moral flexibility, and for intelligent folks, doesn't reflect well on you. You know this. That you don't care is unfortunate. Be careful how far you fall, sometimes you only see it looking back...

I've shared a window into what you are involved in, in a public forum but not related to these boards - that's my PSA for the folks here. I'll let others read up and make their mind up. I advocate for informed, educated decision-making, and I'll pursue my agenda for as long as it takes to offset the disingenuous attempts to do real world damage to people who's livelihoods I happen to care about.

Ultimately - and because I'm a positive, optimistic person - I see the silver lining in the long term outcome of all this. Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win. I don't want to debate how their illusions were shattered; the point I'm trying to make is agnostic to the "why". Simply stated, if they take the "out", then the remaining community becomes one member more united, and one less member divided; and the person who exits gets a pass and can move on to the next great adventure / drama.

Optimism is cool like that - I recommend it to anyone :)

$90,000,000. Ninety. Million. Dollars. Four times the original asking price of the game. For that we have received a deeply flawed arena fighting game and a glorified chat room. For that we have received three years of broken promises, incompetence, and most recently childish and frankly pitiful behavior on the part of CIG's executives. CIG has done nothing to suggest they have been good stewards of our money, and if you don't find their continued inability to deliver on a basic game to be "concrete evidence" then frankly you will never find it.

If me providing guidance on how disgruntled backers can get their money back causes CIG to lose money then I consider that a success. I did not create the ill will that motivated those people to seek out refunds. I did not break the promises that lead to them making that request. That all lies at the feet of @croberts68, and he's more than welcome to come here and defend his incompetence and mistakes. Perhaps for once he can accept responsibility for his numerous failures.

If a few backers getting refunds does damage to the employees of CIG then those people were already doomed. CIG's coffers should be overflowing with cash. CIG should have a massive contingency fund capable of paying for the remainder of development even if they don't receive another dollar. CIG should be fully aware of their burn rate, the remaining workload, and have a plan to completion. If they don't, if backers getting refunds does anything other than send a message that CIG's actions are unacceptable and things need to change, then frankly this whole argument is moot because CIG is screwed.

Look, I want this stupid game to come out. I want to have an awesome time with my friends running around blowing up helpless merchants and boarding ships. But I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in CIG's ability to produce a viable product or meet expectations and frankly I don't think they even care. Actions speak louder than words, and there is no action with more impact than demanding your money back. Maybe if CIG sees enough of them then they'll actually change.

Incidentally there's nothing preventing those people from buying the game once again and coming back. I mean I guess CIG could not take their money, but they're not stupid.

Also, this post is probably the one that got him permabanned.  For trolling.  That's a sign that development is doing fine, right?  Banning even well-spoken dissenters?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 09, 2015, 04:55:02 am
I honestly did not expect things to go to **** this quickly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 09, 2015, 07:44:21 am
Quote
Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.
What the lol
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 09, 2015, 09:13:25 am
He's right if you think about it. They are not cut out to be shat on their faces. They actually have some level of self-worth.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 09, 2015, 09:57:54 am
Quote
Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.
What the lol
He's right if you think about it. They are not cut out to be shat on their faces. They actually have some level of self-worth.

These poor unimaginative peasants can't conceive of a video game that's a little bigger than usual.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 09, 2015, 10:40:02 am
Han Solo once said, I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

Like him, I can imagine quite a big game too. In fact, I can imagine a game so big, so immersive, so amazing, so incredible in all of its traits and characteristics, that in order to make it it would actually take a decade or more to do it, and a hell of a lot more than 90 million dollars.

Chris Roberts perhaps thought that he could substitute all those needs with a 20.000 dollar coffee machine. I'm a tad skeptical. There's only so much caffeine can do, even one as expensive as that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on October 09, 2015, 11:46:35 am
Like him, I can imagine quite a big game too. In fact, I can imagine a game so big, so immersive, so amazing, so incredible in all of its traits and characteristics, that in order to make it it would actually take a decade or more to do it, and a hell of a lot more than 90 million dollars.
For me it sounds like they want the sandbox, trade, contract, corporation and industry of EVE, the space combat gameplay of Freespace, Wing Commander or some similar game, some stuff from E:D (never played it but it seemed to share some goals) and the FPS elements of whatever modern more or less open sci-fi shooter with vehicles there is (I haven't played any shooter for ages). All of that in AAA quality and somehow combined without perceived borders between the modes. Oh and wasn't this thing supposed to be moddable and people should be able to run their own servers? I wonder who can pay for that server infrastructure and the dev team to create a mod for it.
Yeah, I guess with 3-4 times the funding and another 4-5 years development time combined with really good management they might be able to get a game out that covers the basics of what they imagined and is significantly better than 3000AD. Add another 5 years and it might be getting really good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 09, 2015, 05:13:05 pm
Yeah but in 5 years it'll look dated and CR won't be satisfied so they'll have to start all their models over like they've already done once.  Lighting too, probably.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 09, 2015, 08:17:42 pm
An interesting little tangent: I wandered over to the Descent: Underground (the new Kickstarted game for those not in the know) forums, and as one would expect they had a thread going about this whole thing.  Someone there posted this screencap (http://i.imgur.com/XFIM3TH.png), apparently from Derek Smart's blog comments.  Note his claim that he "knows things" and that the Descent: Underground project is a "royal cluster****" ready to "collapse any day now."  Also note that yesterday, Descendent Studios opened up their pre-alpha builds to most higher backer tiers ahead of schedule, and that I was able to sit down and play it myself last night.  It is still very much in the pre-alpha phase, and the only part of the game available is random queue-matching multiplayer just for the sake of stress-testing, but it is already a fully-functional game.  I was flying several different ships, using updated versions of all the classic Descent weapons, and playing in multiple game modes.  It's already far closer to a fully-realized product than Star Citizen has ever been, or likely will ever be.  So while I think there is definitely something to this whole situation, as it is now well beyond a single person's unsourced accusations, let us not forget that Derek Smart has long been in the habit of peddling excessive amounts of bull****.

On a related note, apparently Wingman, the Descent: Underground project head, was banned from the official Star Citizen chat the other day for daring to answer people's questions about his own project.  Keep in mind that Wingman was originally an integral part of the CIG team and played a major role in the campaign's initial success; as far as I can tell he is still very well-liked amongst the SC community, many of whom signed on to support his own Kickstarter.  The ban was rescinded not too long after, but it really makes you question how the hell things are run in that community.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 09, 2015, 10:07:18 pm
Yeah Derek Smart is probably full of **** on some occasions though I do have to question people just going in an ragging on the guy, especially for a 20 year old game.  Also while the Descent Underground guy is free to have an opinion, why is someone else dragging his opinion onto DS's blog?

And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)

Makes about as much sense as people giving Chris Robert's credit for Wing Commander.  Those games are old.

Didn't people learn from watching the new Star Wars? Just because a guy made a good thing 20 years ago doesn't mean the thing he makes today won't be ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 09, 2015, 10:33:57 pm
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)
The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 09, 2015, 11:08:02 pm
Yeah he seems to be a one-trick pony, trying to make the same game year after year and sometimes it's polished enough to get a decent rating but apparently the latest one, Line of Defense, is a bit garbage though it is in Early Access as well.

Personally if I ever get into game development I hope to make a different sort of game every time. Much like the guy who made Flotilla and Atom Zombie Smasher.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 10, 2015, 11:07:48 am
CitizenCon presentation shall begin in two hours. Lets gather round following URL and hear the word of our lord and savior Christ Roberts:

http://www.twitch.tv/StarCitizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 10, 2015, 02:24:06 pm
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)
The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.

It should be noted that the 116 players was due to a listing error making the game free for all :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 10, 2015, 02:33:45 pm
It's life right now! Oh look it starts with his wife giving this speech on how she worked her ass off in this, bla bla bla.

"This is much more than a triple A game." Then she goes on on saying how it's about meaning and friendships and so on. ****ing hell, it's a cult.

"... if you really believe you're part of something bigger ..."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 10, 2015, 04:20:00 pm
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.

When they started crowdfunding they were going on how great it was that it allows them to avoid publishers and deliver the best game ever straight to the player. Well, CR demonstrated that sometimes, publishers keeping you inside certain limits can be a good thing. Particularly if you have no control over your ambitions and aren't on good speaking terms with reality :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 10, 2015, 04:56:28 pm
Those numbers of CIG employees over time are pretty telling if true. It shows that work on SC really took off only in 2014 and later. I dont think the game is going to be completed anytime soon. Still needs at least two years. Doesnt bother me, good things take time, but it will provide plenty of ammo to detractors.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 10, 2015, 05:27:10 pm
It was unbelievable how they managed to go through so much Squadron 42 promo material without showing any indication that this will be a game where you fly a space fighter, fighting in space. As far as I can tell it's a very dodgy walking simulator set in some spare levels from the last 10 years of sci-fi shooters.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 10, 2015, 05:29:11 pm
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.
I think that the thing was that Virgin Galactic didn't have 90 million $ on hand. :) If they did, they might have tried to go for an airliner-sized ship that would go to orbit and have a huge cargobay for lifting payloads along with the crew... I get a feeling that Roberts has much, much more money that he can handle management of. I do hope this merely delays the game, but I've seen projects completely bogged down by "too much of a good thing". Too much money, too large of a scope, too many people, too great expectations. Great things often started small and gradually got big, starting big is more likely to turn into an unmanageable mess.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 10, 2015, 06:04:59 pm
The fact the CIG are putting their military ships on sale say a lot about their financial situation. Those have always been their most popular ones.

Especially the Idris, which isn't even being sold in limited quantities like it was all the previous times it was available (well, except for the 5000$ pack).

They NEED money right now. If this sale goes badly (which it probably won't), they're done. They may be done anyway. There's only so much you can milk your cult for, probably why they also added a referral program at the same time. They need new money.

I say on sale, but really it's 2500USD (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack). It only qualifies as a sale because it's cheaper than the individual packages.  Also, packages that were originally offered as "limited time only will never be sold again".


Gameplay-wise, there was nothing shown at CitizenCon that we didn't see at Gamescom.  Most of the presentation was CR talking about how SQ42 has 10 hours of cutscenes (in a 30 mission campaign), and then CIG trying to convince you that they invented motion capture.  It's really obvious that Chris would prefer to make movies.  He's thrown more money at SQ42 than at his ludicrously ambitious persistent universe.

And then at the end they showed the opening scene of Starlancer, but with shinier graphics (that either look a bit dated or uncanny valley [those faces]).


The Sabre/Vindicator/POTATO is a very nice-looking ship.  About time they made another good one to go alongside the Gladius.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 04:04:58 am
Gameplay-wise, there was nothing shown at CitizenCon that we didn't see at Gamescom.  Most of the presentation was CR talking about how SQ42 has 10 hours of cutscenes (in a 30 mission campaign), and then CIG trying to convince you that they invented motion capture.  It's really obvious that Chris would prefer to make movies.  He's thrown more money at SQ42 than at his ludicrously ambitious persistent universe.

He's always leaned more towards a cinematic than gameplay experience. This is what the Wing Commander games stood out for - immersion, story, feeling like you're in this sci fi movie; that was all fine, but gameplay? There were far, far better space shooter / sim games out there at all times when it comes to sheer gameplay / flight model. However he still made games that were kinda fun in the end.

The problem is, the success of crowdfunding and all that money SC managed to gather pretty much had an effect of supercharging his natural tendencies. Gameplay is obviously last on his list of priorities; in a situation where many people are complaining about the pretty bad arena dogfighting module, star marine being endlessly delayed and what is out there is a very small buggy mess, and pretty much in a state of vaporware, and generally calling SC "the best spaceship hangar sim ever made", he's throwing money at actors, hiring linguists to make new languages for the game, and other flash vs substance stuff like that.

There will be a point when his "whale" supporters that are throwing thousands of $ on his spaceships will begin asking for refunds one by one, and this thing will spiral out of control.

I'll be playing Elite: Dangerous in the mean time. It may not have a bunch of well known actors in it, it may not be promising to deliver everything and the kitchen sink at once, but right now this game is surviving based on it's own sales, and that of it's upcoming expansion that will open up planetary landing to us, and bring other stuff to the table - it's not surviving based on soap bubble promises and offering me spaceships for thousands of dollars. It also lets me hop into my exploration ship and go explore a 1:1, 400 billion star galaxy. And while it's not without it's faults, it ticks many boxes, has a realistic yet ambitious scope, and I believe that after a few expansions it will be way closer to the kind of game Chris Roberts described when they started Star Citizen than SC will ever get. And when I fly with my HOTAS, it does not make my HOTAS act like it was a mouse. That's kinda nice too, arena commander's flight model is atrocious.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 11, 2015, 05:37:03 am
I don't want to watch through hours of CR droning about how everything is great.
Is there a good summary somewhere as to what has been shown and what the current release targets for Star Marine / Baby PU are?
Also, how accurate were Derek Smart's predictions about the presentation?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 11, 2015, 05:42:16 am
AFAICT, he was 100% right. But I would also like to see some reliable summary of what went down. Could only watch first few minutes before sleeping of boredom.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 11, 2015, 09:17:05 am
Worry not, Spoon, Hades and I, some foul and skeptic minded people, managed to watch the whole thing and kept our wits about by mocking everything (cause its fun!). Here's a brief rundown from what I gathered in the chat log.


Shout out to Hades for those image links (that first one was an actual image from the stream)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 11, 2015, 09:26:38 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

notacult

Quote
The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)

(http://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2014/vince.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2015, 09:31:48 am
Watching and breaking down that stream was the most fun I've had so far from my 24 euro pledge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 11, 2015, 10:09:32 am
Thanks for the recap :)

Just watched Gary Oldman's speech... that cringe-worthy writing... yup, it's definitely going to be a Chris Roberts game :/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 11, 2015, 10:20:28 am
and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)
Baron Harkonnen says wut
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 10:49:18 am
Worry not, Spoon, Hades and I, some foul and skeptic minded people, managed to watch the whole thing and kept our wits about by mocking everything (cause its fun!). Here's a brief rundown from what I gathered in the chat log.

  • Flowers for Sandi
  • Millions of kilometers of space
  • Immersive
  • Mostly rehashed Crusader v0 gameplay demo
  • Immersive star map where Alpha Centauri is not the closest star to Sol
  • "Private" "lounge" for your friends to hang out and drink immersive alcoholic beverages (and fishtanks)
  • Saitek getting on the money train with custom branded joysticks
  • Trapezoidal marketing referral bonus program (get 5 referrals and get a bigger fish tank, get 10 and get a gold skin for a ship!)
  • Actually not bad looking fighter (SabrePotato)
  • Immersive
  • Squadron 42, wwwhaaat???
  • Independence day and/or 9/11 style speech intro cutscene by Gary Oldman set in a Space Parliament
  • Gary Oldman still talking
  • Gary Oldman barely blinking
  • Gary Oldman still talking raspily
  • A-List Hollywood actor list
  • And Sandi
  • Amazing facial feature technology including blood flow, wrinkle maps, pupil dilation and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)
  • Immersive
  • Tactical combat everywhere! Even on the ground!
  • Ships on SALE!!!!
  • 90 million page script (Still not as long as BP aaaaayyyyy)
  • 120 hours of mo cap recorded, 10 hours kept for the game
  • Actors being paid to praise the mo cap (http://i.imgur.com/dVRvkkL.png)
  • 66 day shooting schedule
  • Immersive
  • Huge 250m Frigate
  • Starlancer opening recreation with an amazing array of UK accents
  • Corridor walking simulator
  • Sitting in a briefing room and hearing the history of your ship simulator
  • The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)
  • Immersive birthday cake for SC brought out, happy birthday is cringly sung
  • Chris Roberts can't cut a cake
  • Immersion

Shout out to Hades for those image links (that first one was an actual image from the stream)

Oh Axem, I missed your posts man :) But do you think it will be immersive? I don't think they mentioned this point enough.

Immersion. Immersive. Immersion.

I'm sure any minor flaws in gameplay (not really a necessary feature for a game) could easily be rectified by hiring Bono to do a concert when SC launches. Provided Bono will still be alive by then. I'm also glad they're spending all that time and money on making all those hours of cutscenes for Squadron 42. Because in 2015 everyone is still totally impressed by full motion video cutscenes (it's like a movie but in a game - what magic is this? I'm sure glad I bought all 4MB of RAM and a color monitor now..) and nobody will ever skip them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 11, 2015, 11:24:44 am
If they mo cap the Bono concert, they won't need to worry about needing him alive when the game comes out. First ever immersive concert done in CryEngine 3!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 11:42:44 am
If they mo cap the Bono concert, they won't need to worry about needing him alive when the game comes out. First ever immersive concert done in CryEngine 18!

Fixed that for you, for realism's sake :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on October 11, 2015, 01:20:57 pm
On a related note, apparently Wingman, the Descent: Underground project head, was banned from the official Star Citizen chat the other day for daring to answer people's questions about his own project.  Keep in mind that Wingman was originally an integral part of the CIG team and played a major role in the campaign's initial success; as far as I can tell he is still very well-liked amongst the SC community, many of whom signed on to support his own Kickstarter.  The ban was rescinded not too long after, but it really makes you question how the hell things are run in that community.
It's life right now! Oh look it starts with his wife giving this speech on how she worked her ass off in this, bla bla bla.

"This is much more than a triple A game." Then she goes on on saying how it's about meaning and friendships and so on. ****ing hell, it's a cult.

"... if you really believe you're part of something bigger ..."
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.
The fact the CIG are putting their military ships on sale say a lot about their financial situation. Those have always been their most popular ones.

Especially the Idris, which isn't even being sold in limited quantities like it was all the previous times it was available (well, except for the 5000$ pack).

They NEED money right now. If this sale goes badly (which it probably won't), they're done. They may be done anyway. There's only so much you can milk your cult for, probably why they also added a referral program at the same time. They need new money.

I say on sale, but really it's 2500USD (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack). It only qualifies as a sale because it's cheaper than the individual packages.  Also, packages that were originally offered as "limited time only will never be sold again".
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

I'm finally convinced. This whole thing reeks of dishonesty, which is quite sad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 12, 2015, 03:55:58 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

Holy **** do they know they're making a video game? Not curing cancer, helping refugees or colonizing mars.   
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 12, 2015, 04:35:34 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

Holy **** do they know they're making a video game? Not curing cancer, helping refugees or colonizing mars.   

I know, right? The funny thing is that their rhetoric was a bit like that from day 1, before crowd funding even began, back when they were handing out those "gold plates" or whatever they were called. I found the whole phrasing a bit creepy and cult like back then, but then at that time there was nothing on the radar when it came to space sims, a then-dead (or more accurately, dormant) genre, so I was willing to write this off to a new project run by people who may not understand marketing very well, but who knows if they do well on crowd funding..

But I see my initial instincts were right. The whole rhetoric is similar to those pyramid scheme salesmen being all suspiciously enthusiastic about the product they're selling without ever getting too specific about anything. Much like CR keeps being religiously enthusiastic about SC, selling ships, talking about how great it's going to be for years without ever showing a decent bit of gameplay, the only thing that matters in the end.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 05:36:40 am
I could (and I will) join the fray in mocking these cultist statements (and btw, thank you Axem, that was a neat proper summary :D), but there's something else here at play.

This was not "just a game", but the ultimate promise of the most ultimate, amazing "Star Wariesque" escapist fantasy one could ever buy. Think on it. Some people who are just going through their motions, bored as **** about their lifes, stressed as hell with their day to day shenanigans, knowing fully well they'll never experience a truly "space-esque" adventure in their life-times (and still yearning for it), suddenly got promised the most "IMMERSIVE" Star Wars-esque experience evah.

The game was boring as **** as presented. You have to go through boring hallways, boring elevators, get to your "posts" and basically see walls and corridors and small windows with terrible line of sight towards what you're supposed to "shoot" (holy **** isn't Freespace 2's lack of "cockpit visuals" just an amazing feature?!?), you have to go through repair stations and land on them and do all sorts of "truck simulator" ****. The boringness of the game is not a "bug", it's a feature. It adds to its own "believability".

But that's the point. The point is not to create a "fun game", the game is not fun at all. The point is to create this fantasy on these people's heads that they can actually live some sort of alternative "redshirt" life on their PC. With their Occulus. The promise is to create Star Second Life Citizen.

So they are indeed trying to build a dream of their own. They will probably fail spectacularly, and with a lot of people's savings going down the well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on October 12, 2015, 07:49:39 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 12, 2015, 08:20:47 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

It was from before we had space sims.
Or, more specifically, space sims with tech from this decade.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 09:02:02 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

People who like space sims were starved for new content for a decade. Meanwhile this demographic cohort grew up and acquired fat disposable income. Then Chris(t) of WC fame comes along and promises salvation in the form of not just any space sim, but the "best damn space sim ever". The result? $92 million and counting..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 12, 2015, 09:12:00 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

People who like space sims were starved for new content for a decade. Meanwhile this demographic cohort grew up and acquired fat disposable income. Then Chris(t) of WC fame comes along and promises salvation in the form of not just any space sim, but the "best damn space sim ever". The result? $92 million and counting..

Also he put on a massive media Blitzkrieg and capitalised on the novelty of crowdfunding becoming mainstream at the time he launched the bid.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 12, 2015, 10:12:15 am
He also sold people their dreams.  He gave people enough information to provide a framework, then let them fill in the blanks themselves, asked them what they wanted to do in the game and said "you'll be able to do that".  It doesn't matter what "that" is, you'll be able to do it.

It's why there's absolutely no way SC can measure up to expectations even if it gets released.  He's not selling a game, he's selling a dream.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 10:29:24 am
Yeah but in that regard, that is unmistakable from the very best marketing. It kinda is like Steve Jobs. Here's what Bloomberg had to blurb about the subject:

Quote
Sell Dreams, Not Products
Steve Jobs doesn’t sell computers. He sells the promise of a better world. True evangelists are driven by a messianic zeal to create new experiences. When Jobs introduced the iPod in 2001, he said, "In our own small way, we’re going to make the world a better place." Where most people see the iPod as a music player, Jobs presents it as tool to enrich people’s lives. Of course, it’s important to have great products. But passion, enthusiasm, and a sense of purpose beyond the actual product will set you and your company apart.

But he was also fond of saying "Real artists ship". And that's the part that is failing. Dreams can carry many mistakes and deadline delays, but for how long?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 12, 2015, 10:32:44 am
He also sold people their dreams.  He gave people enough information to provide a framework, then let them fill in the blanks themselves, asked them what they wanted to do in the game and said "you'll be able to do that".  It doesn't matter what "that" is, you'll be able to do it.

It's why there's absolutely no way SC can measure up to expectations even if it gets released.  He's not selling a game, he's selling a dream.

I agree. I also think it goes further than that; I'm not sure SC can even muster a playable release that comes close to the scope of what they promised. You see, when you go to kickstarter and come up with an amount you need, you're basically telling the world "I need this much, minimum, to make this - if I don't hit that goal it's not getting made, if I go over it it's getting made with these extra bells and whistles".

Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Years later, their online store has made their total profits 184 times that of the original KS goal. Game is overdue, and there is nothing even remotely resembling a game that's shaping up towards something playable. It's the finest grade smoke combined with diamond cut deluxe mirrors; but it's still smoke and mirrors.

At this point I doubt this thing can even release as something that's not a horrible mess with Chris Roberts at the helm. Either he steps down to some honorary title that removes him from a position where he can make decisions, or I doubt this thing will even release as anything resembling what they described when they begun crowdfunding.

I don't think this was a con job, at least not an intentional one; however the end result, I suspect, will be the same as it was. It's not even a matter of time and money anymore - they need someone in charge who will put gameplay back to priority one and stop wasting money on actors, CGI cutscenes, and hiring linguists to invent new languages for Star Citizen. I think somewhere down the line Chris Roberts forgot he's making a game and not an actual new universe; now completely untethered from reality I don't see how he can realistically remain in charge of a project of SC's magnitude and produce results that are measured in fun gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 12, 2015, 10:40:21 am
So in other words the project needs a Publisher to fund it and reign in CR & co
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 10:42:12 am
Yeah, it needs someone with a pragmatic eye and a look towards shipping an actual product. Someone with sufficient power to kick CR's in the butt and make him go away.

And that can only happen when CIG gets a finantial bailout. But by then, it might just be too late.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 11:31:14 am
Star Citizen is strange at times. Take this video:


I frequently find some things impressive and some things like "huh?" when I watch a Star Citizen video.

Like I think the senate building is impressive, and I love the music.

Then Bishop steps up to the platform. What's with his mouth? I can open my mouth quite wide. But I looked in the mirror and my mouth opened wide is about the same as his mouth talking normally. That just isn't right! And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

But the speech, I don't know Gary Oldman. I know he's a big deal and he's front and centre of the list of names they reel off. I looked at his filmography, there are a handful of films I've seen that he's been in but his roles don't jump out at me, he wasn't the main man in any of them.

But I thought the speech was just bad. I thought it sounded more like generic politician than great war leader. I thought the speech was just boring, with weird pauses and stop starts in it. Then they all give him this huge ovation and it just doesn't feel like they earned that. It looks great when they're all applauding him, but it doesn't feel like it merits it. I don't know how the rest of you feel, I'd be interested to know.

Like, I honestly feel the reaction here is more believable and the speech more interesting:


I watched the video where they show you around the ship:


The opening I liked a lot. And I'm definitely impressed with the interior of the ship. But the characters are just boring. Delivering uninteresting dialogue in a flat way. That guy taking you around the ship, I honestly can't tell whether the face is just wrong or the character is meant to have a disability. So while I enjoyed being walked through the ship, the characters were just uninteresting to me. Though I did like the woman you meet at the end. And it leaves me wondering, are these people voiced by some of their star studded cast of characters? Are these lines the final cut? It's really not working for me. I'm talking most games I've played with voice acting are better in that regard for me right now. Including stuff here on the site, heck, Wing Commander Saga beats Star Citizen with a stick right now in the voice work and dialogue department imo.

So I'm curious what the rest of you make of this stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 12:25:44 pm
That speech video has terrible music. It's just too much. And the camera work. Dizzier than The Lord of The Rings stuff. It's a shameful usage of Gary's talent, which I'm a big fan of.

Of course, the mocap is terrible, but the only bearable I've seen is from LA Noire, that sacrificed visual fidelity and "realism" in order to get more emotional expressiveness. I've yet to be amazed by any facial mocap.

Regarding the boringness of it, I've addressed that point. It's a feature, not a bug. The point is to be "immersive", and there's nothing more believable and "immersive" than boringness.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 12:34:37 pm
That speech video has terrible music. It's just too much.
Oh I agree it doesn't fit, for the same reason I said the applause didn't feel earned. That music doesn't feel earned. But just by itself I really like the piece. It would work if they managed to put a genuinely impressive speech in there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 01:49:15 pm
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Again, this is not true. Star Citizen original crowdfunding goal was at least $2 million, raised mostly through their site. Kickstarter was added later as a means to pledge for those who did not want to use the official site, that $500k KS goal doesnt really mean anything significant.

Then in addition to these crowdfunded $2 million, there were supposedly investors lined up to fund the game up to $20 million in total. This sum of $20 million is what SC development was originally supposed to cost. And you can realistically make quite a good AAA game with that kind of money. Maybe not good enough for Chrises ever rising ambitions, tough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 02:03:08 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 02:30:57 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Fair enough about the hair.

But the dialogue, surely not when you first meet them! You only get one chance to make a first impression. Compare this to when you meet people for the first time in WC3 and WC4 and even WCP. It falls well short of that.

Another thing I noticed from the speech which I want to mention which leaves me scratching my head, that's the first I've heard about the Vanduul. So we've been fighting the Vanduul for 200 years. And in all that time we've only called the attacks "raids, skirmishes and incursions." That is a terrible thing to say about them. It makes them seem so weak. It's like we've spent the last 200 years treating them as nothing more than a nuisance, and they've not done much to prove otherwise, well, until this Vega engagement in the start of the video. So it's took them 200 years to do something to make us sit up and take notice of them. It seems more like this is going to be pest control than a war for the survival of the human race. Compare that to how we get introduced to the Kilrathi and the Nephelim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 12, 2015, 05:00:24 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Fair enough about the hair.

But the dialogue, surely not when you first meet them! You only get one chance to make a first impression. Compare this to when you meet people for the first time in WC3 and WC4 and even WCP. It falls well short of that.

Another thing I noticed from the speech which I want to mention which leaves me scratching my head, that's the first I've heard about the Vanduul. So we've been fighting the Vanduul for 200 years. And in all that time we've only called the attacks "raids, skirmishes and incursions." That is a terrible thing to say about them. It makes them seem so weak. It's like we've spent the last 200 years treating them as nothing more than a nuisance, and they've not done much to prove otherwise, well, until this Vega engagement in the start of the video. So it's took them 200 years to do something to make us sit up and take notice of them. It seems more like this is going to be pest control than a war for the survival of the human race. Compare that to how we get introduced to the Kilrathi and the Nephelim.

/shrugs

I'll withhold judgement until we know more about the storyline.

It's all too easy to imagine several scenarios that make total sense ... like the Vanduul being some kind of society with a clan / nomad structure that has no central government or leader .... until such a leader suddenly arises and a large amount of small unorganized clans is quickly turned into a deadly threath to any other civilization .... 

Such a storyline would also allow for a main antagonist with a face.

As I said, who knows. I'd say it's way too early to tell. For all we know Squadron 42 could be some nightmarish behind enemy lines reconaissance gathering mission to find out why the Vanduul are suddenly so much more organized, aggressive and deadly than before.

It was hinted at that some part/parts of the storyline were inspired by Apocalypse now after all. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 05:44:46 pm
Yeah, something like that would make a lot more sense. If in the past it had always only been but a fraction of the Vanduul, then suddenly you're either dealing with the entire race or a massive alliance of Vanduul nations / factions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 12, 2015, 05:50:40 pm
As I said, who knows. I'd say it's way too early to tell. For all we know Squadron 42 could be some nightmarish behind enemy lines reconaissance gathering mission to find out why the Vanduul are suddenly so much more organized, aggressive and deadly than before.

wasn't the entire plotline leaked a few months ago
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 13, 2015, 04:19:29 am
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Again, this is not true. Star Citizen original crowdfunding goal was at least $2 million, raised mostly through their site. Kickstarter was added later as a means to pledge for those who did not want to use the official site, that $500k KS goal doesnt really mean anything significant.


You're right, I forgot about their own crowdfunding before KS. Still, I believe my point still stands - other sources of funding on the side, they did crowdfunding efforts and promised certain results if the community gives them this amount of cash. Community gave them even more, did not receive a game, but did receive the online store and more promises. The thing is still several times over it's projected budget with nothing playable in sight.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 04:34:24 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 13, 2015, 06:55:26 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.

For that kinda money he should start sending the high tier backers to the ISS :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 07:15:14 am
On the SA thread they are currently investigating the possibility that Star Citizen is in fact a giant money laundering operation run by the Swedish mafia.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 07:19:13 am
Something Awful is aptly named... but still that looks hilarious. Got a link?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 07:34:41 am
3 guesses who started the rumour (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3744337&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=419#post451357540)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 13, 2015, 07:34:59 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.

As far as I know, the investors were turned down after crowdfunding campaign reached $23 million, so it is all crowdfunded now.

Quote
It's all too easy to imagine several scenarios that make total sense ... like the Vanduul being some kind of society with a clan / nomad structure that has no central government or leader .... until such a leader suddenly arises and a large amount of small unorganized clans is quickly turned into a deadly threath to any other civilization ....

Id say that is not far from the truth.

http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Vanduul
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 07:52:37 am
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 13, 2015, 10:53:16 am
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.
That's what I thought as soon as the horde thing came up. But hey, it does make it better than the alternative, which would mean we've gone from kill-wrath to petty crime. :p Which would just reinforce the weakness image.

As for the story, it is possible to write a predictable and unoriginal story and still do it well, but I'm certainly not impressed so far.

Though with me, gameplay will be the real determining factor. I won't care if the story sucks if the gameplay is great.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 13, 2015, 11:06:02 am
Just on names, I think it would have been so much better if they'd just called them the vandals and said that was the codename for them because we've got no idea what they actually call themselves (or we can't pronounce it).  Would also show a bit of self-awareness.  But no, they've just got a name that coincidentally sounds insanely close to Vandal, and they fill the same role.

SC tries so hard to be the fall of the Roman Empire in space, but it manages to do absolutely nothing interesting with that.  It doesn't look at how the Roman Empire was a colossal supernation that, by the time it died, had culturally assimilated everyone around it (which eventually spread to all of Europe) and destroyed nearly everyone who resisted that assimilation (as in Sassanid Persia and eventually the Muslims were the only ones it didn't).  It doesn't look at how the Empire wasn't destroyed from outside.  Oh no, it copy-pastes the most basic explanation: the Empire was destroyed by barbarians. 

There's absolutely nothing interesting about the setting.  What interesting things exist were taken from other, far better science-fiction.  It's like Star Citizen's setting was built by using TVTropes as assembly instructions.  It's one of the most derivative settings I've ever seen.

No part of Star Citizen is original.  Everything they've done or want to do has been done before.  They don't want to do something that hasn't been done before, they want to do as many things that have been done before as possible.  Putting it all together in one game hasn't been done, but it probably won't be successfully done by SC either.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 11:21:05 am
Yep, it's the word "Vandalism" taken seriously as a legitimate source of historical meaning and reinserted as main canon lore of your "best game evah". I mean, there's so much richness you could distill and get out from this period in time, and instead you do this. I do understand why: it's simple, it's basic. It's "James Cameron" level of hitting you in the head with basic **** so you never confuse yourself. It's like when George Lucas names his villains as "General Grievous". The point is to use these references as basic starting points that you catch on very quickly and without further investigation, so you can focus on the core story, the core characters, etc.

It's very effective, I guess, it's just incredibly boring and stale.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 13, 2015, 12:11:02 pm
That woman calls them "duul". That by itself would be a pretty good name if you ask me. The Duul.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 13, 2015, 12:21:56 pm
The dull?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 12:41:36 pm
No Spoon, read it as "the dole".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 13, 2015, 12:44:48 pm
No Spoon, read it as "the dole".

Certainly where the project members are heading by the sounds of it
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 13, 2015, 12:50:49 pm
Just on names, I think it would have been so much better if they'd just called them the vandals and said that was the codename for them because we've got no idea what they actually call themselves (or we can't pronounce it).  Would also show a bit of self-awareness.  But no, they've just got a name that coincidentally sounds insanely close to Vandal, and they fill the same role.

SC tries so hard to be the fall of the Roman Empire in space, but it manages to do absolutely nothing interesting with that.  It doesn't look at how the Roman Empire was a colossal supernation that, by the time it died, had culturally assimilated everyone around it (which eventually spread to all of Europe) and destroyed nearly everyone who resisted that assimilation (as in Sassanid Persia and eventually the Muslims were the only ones it didn't).  It doesn't look at how the Empire wasn't destroyed from outside.  Oh no, it copy-pastes the most basic explanation: the Empire was destroyed by barbarians.

One of the most interesting things I found (Yeah Total War: Atilla!) was that the barbarians that caused the WRE the most grief were all tribes who had previously worked for the romans (due to fear of the huns) and were subsequently screwed over by the same romans. Geert Wilders (the brandname right wing nut here in the netherlands) often draws comparisons to the mass migrations when talking about the dangers of letting in refugees, whilst completely ignoring that the only reason Alaric (Visigoth king) sacked Rome was because the Romans refused to pay him for services rendered. The visigoths where not an example of foreign invaders, but rather an example of why you should never mess with worker's unions.

Off course, for people that do not know history a lot (I didn't!) these sorta things could be a plot twist, in which case the Vanduul name (who invaded rome to liberate people held hostage there) can be massive foreshadowing instead (Which, obviously, you won't show in trailers because spoilers!).

But I have only been watching this from the sidelines so I'll withhold judgement.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
Oh I'm betting it's a plot twist, ala FreeSpace 1, and that's why I referenced Atilla in the first place. The doles were just the mcguffin you see, the real danger is mister Atilla down there (cue "we're totally ****ed" soundtrack here). Wasn't there a much nastier race out there in Star Citizen? Like the enemies of one of your allies or some such, who are just like the Vasudan-like species there?

Curiously IIRC they are referred to as "nomadic species", or "hordes" or some such. I mean, as I said, this is totally original and amazing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 13, 2015, 01:54:32 pm
It should be worth noting that the Huns were a known quantity for the Romans before the Vandals and Goths attacked them - They were even allied with the Romans at one point in history. The huns themselves also only attacked the Eastern Roman empire, whilst the Western Roman Empire was the empire that actually crumbled at the hands of it's own ineffeciency and the desperation of the people they screwed over.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 01:56:11 pm
You're just overthinking this now with your "historical accuracies" and some such come on :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 13, 2015, 01:59:09 pm
You're just overthinking this now with your "historical accuracies" and some such come on :D

Historical accuracy is never a bad thing :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 13, 2015, 02:00:05 pm
Eh, the "Rome was destroyed by Barbarians" schtick is stale.

Rome never fell, rather its own conquests created the seeds of downfall in the West and rebuilt in the East. By the time the Western provinces ceased to be under direct Roman rule, the organs of "Rome" had migrated to Constantinople while Europe was still essentially Roman in culture and thought, but ruled by Romanized barbarians whom aspired to Roman conventions. Funny, eh?

Chris Roberts needs to get his head out of Gibbons ass.

Not really impressed by the Squadron 42 shtick. Getting 90s cgi vibes from the mocap. Fidelity sucketh mucheth. Here's my problem with fidelity in Star Citizen, it's a terrible reason for feature creep. Screw fidelity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 13, 2015, 02:49:05 pm
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.

Yeah Sci Fi games are like that sometimes ... like that other game where some unknown aliens tried to wipe out humanity and humanity of course had to defend itself /yawn ... didn't we hear that story a hundred times?

What was it called again? Freespace 2? ;-) Writing and execution of course never matter in how good a storyline is either, no, not at all ... if you can sum it up in one or two sentences that remind you of something else it must surely suck, right? ;-)

Heh... who knows, maybe you're spot on and it will suck.... but right now, frankly, it just appears that you are jumping to conclusions all to readily. /shrugs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 13, 2015, 04:04:18 pm
Homeworld 2 totally jumped the shark with those "Vaygr" space barbarians, led by Ma(Genghis)kaan attacking the Hiigaran Empire
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 04:16:44 pm
Are you actually defending  homeworld 2's storyline?

While I do understand that execution trumps many complaints one might have, the signals aren't good. FS 2 had a huge (yuuge) amount of real world references but they were all mixed up and coherent only to tell a very original story (I've written a wall of text on this). In this case, we seem to have a single analogy that informs the entire plotline almost down to time spans, ideologies and tone. It's all about this one big thing.

Now that might all be just a clever setup and there's actually an intelligent twist along the way. IDK we'll see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 13, 2015, 05:00:03 pm
Where are you getting your info on SC's storyline anyway? 

Are you extrapolating all this from like 2 facts and aliens called "vanduul" or has there been a lot of story stuff put out?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 05:44:31 pm
There's a whole wiki on this stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 05:44:57 pm
There's been a decent bit, I think, and all of it's been exactly to the template of Decline and Fall of the Terran Empire.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 13, 2015, 10:02:18 pm
You seem to be very ignorant on Star Citizen as a whole, Turambar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 14, 2015, 01:58:13 am
There's a whole wiki on this stuff.

Which does not include the story, only the basic setting. Because the story is still unknown. It is too early to judge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 14, 2015, 06:01:56 am
The setting is what we're talking about.  And no, it's not too early to judge it.  They've released enough fiction for us to get a very good impression.

As for SQ42's story, well, there was that interview CR did where he summarized the story and it was basically the Wing Commander movie, but we don't know if he was serious or not.  Looking at how thoroughly uninspired and derivative the whole game is, it wouldn't surprise me if he was.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 14, 2015, 12:49:53 pm
Squadron 42. Why did it have to be 42? Why couldn't it have been Squadron 40?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTHypbLlkE#t=1m06s

I'd be saying that all the time if I was playing. You can be as derivative as you like with that, Roberts! Get Brian Blessed in to voice whoever leads the squadron so he can say that line again! :lol:

He's 79, still has that booming voice and intends to climb Mount Everest when he's 80.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 14, 2015, 12:50:38 pm
Well, the quality of story I think depends more on its execution than its premise. And while I think it's too early to judge any story before it's actually released, one shouldn't be surprised if people want to speculate, especially in the absence of anything more entertaining.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 15, 2015, 06:49:10 am
I don't think you can judge the story before the game comes out. But if the people are right about their speculations, then the story is pretty ****. You shouldn't be able to guess the entire storyline of a game before it comes out!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 15, 2015, 08:50:43 am
Except if you really think the writers of this **** are as terrible as some of us think they are. Hell, even with good writers, one can make good educated guesses. I nailed most of Mass Effect 3's storyline beforehand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 15, 2015, 11:13:57 am
Except if you really think the writers of this **** are as terrible as some of us think they are. Hell, even with good writers, one can make good educated guesses. I nailed most of Mass Effect 3's storyline beforehand.

Ack! You knew about the star child and didn't warn us!?!?!?! wahh :P (lol)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 15, 2015, 11:56:50 am
No, that was the hilarious part. What I had speculated was that ME3 would be about Shepard trying to rally the other species to fight the reapers AND to find this deus ex machine BIG GUN that would kill the Reapers. The trickier conclusion I reached was that the tension would be created by a race, a competition between Shepard and TIM (who would be using horrible methods) to get this weapon to kill the Reapers. That is basically correct, except the details.

And then, I hilariously shut down a commenter (http://forum.bioware.com/topic/233890-tim-is-the-real-human-army-fighting-the-reapers/page-3#entry6641295) that proposed that actually TIM was going to try to CONTROL the reapers using indoctrination with this comment of mine:

Quote
Turning BAD ASS ctuhluh like creatures into puppets seem like a BAD idea story wise.

Just sayin...

So my mistake was to assume Bioware's minimal writing competency :D.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 15, 2015, 04:28:32 pm
I was disappointed as soon as the story became about getting a giant ancient reaper killing weapon to kill the reapers.

but 95% of the game was still totally ****in awesome.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 15, 2015, 05:00:10 pm
A story doesn't necessarily have to be new in order to be enjoyable. Actually, it is entirely dependent on how it is pulled off. Sure, originality helps, but we still enjoy age-old storylines when they are told well. On the flipside, it's very possible to have a good, original idea, then screw it up so badly it loses all appeal. Originality itself is not all-important, though it's hard for a clone to be better than the original (though, amazingly enough, it has happened). The Wing Commander movie wasn't actually all that bad, it's the special effects that were terrible.

That said, Star Citizen might very well become too much of a throwback. Roberts seems to either want to create a great, revolutionary "new big thing", or go back to his "glory days". A game that is essentially WC+Freelancer+Starlancer all mashed together in a great 90s throwback with better graphics would probably be fun, but not exactly a classic. Nostalgia will attract some players, but SC needs to go beyond that if it really wants to succeed.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 15, 2015, 07:56:53 pm
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 15, 2015, 08:11:01 pm
To paraphrase Stephen Colbert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqgvll8W7Jk):

Generic enough to not confuse anyone, but also generic enough that everyone will love it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 16, 2015, 06:23:36 am
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.

No mention of Wing Commander 4? Why not? Was that one too good? ;-) And Prophecy is more of an example why you shouldn t let EA handle franchises than anything else. lol.


Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and a couple of other movies as well.

I'll settle on what I said above... "We'll see when we're gonna see" ... but in my humble opinion anyone who pretends to "know", at this stage, is just blowing smoke. /shrugs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 16, 2015, 06:36:49 am
Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and other movies as well.


Point of Order: Christ Roberts didn't direct or write Lord of War. Both of those duties were handled by Andrew Niccol (who also wrote and directed Gattaca and wrote The Truman Show), aka someone who actually knew what he was doing.
He did however produce the film.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 16, 2015, 08:16:33 am
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.

No mention of Wing Commander 4? Why not? Was that one too good? ;-) And Prophecy is more of an example why you shouldn t let EA handle franchises than anything else. lol.


Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and a couple of other movies as well.

I'll settle on what I said above... "We'll see when we're gonna see" ... but in my humble opinion anyone who pretends to "know", at this stage, is just blowing smoke. /shrugs
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that.  I'm obliging him.

I don't think WC4 was anything special, but then again, I don't think WC5 was much worse.  It was more of the same.  What made it different is that it abandoned some of the characters (like not making Blair the player character), and, I think, showed just how mediocre the series was if you weren't a fan of the characters.  Its story and the way it was told was no worse and no better.

Basically, more of the same, but with less fan appeal.  Starlancer was in the exact same boat.

And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 16, 2015, 09:42:30 am
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that.  I'm obliging him.

I don't think WC4 was anything special, but then again, I don't think WC5 was much worse.  It was more of the same.  What made it different is that it abandoned some of the characters (like not making Blair the player character), and, I think, showed just how mediocre the series was if you weren't a fan of the characters.  Its story and the way it was told was no worse and no better.

Basically, more of the same, but with less fan appeal.  Starlancer was in the exact same boat.


Errrrrr.... Wing Commander 5 / Starlancer, "not much worse" than Wing Commander 4? Sheez ... have we been playing the same games? I'd say they were both rather abysmal in comparison to WC4. Especially WC5.

And yes ... he wants a spiritual successor to Wing Commander or a "modern space sim" ...  but you can't tell me that 15 years of life and experience in the movie industry mean nothing if it comes to executing stories and thus making possibly a "better" game than 15 years ago? Well, you are free to believe what you want, naturally. I'll keep my mh ... let's call it "nonpessimism" or "guarded optimism" or whatever. I just wanna see how it DOES turn out. ;-)

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Frankly, the issue I took with the discussion was that it was pretty much just a load of strong opinion based on guesswork and preconceptions and little else. I don't see any "hard evidence" swinging either way. Guess what "counts" as "evidence" is rather subjective in this case as well. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 16, 2015, 09:50:33 am
I mean, Chris only directed one film and it was a schlocky flop. The rest of his film career was spent producing, which is a management position. And his career ground to a halt when Kevin Costner sued the **** out of him over a failed project, so he wasn't exactly a success in that regard either.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 16, 2015, 10:01:47 am
And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 16, 2015, 10:26:03 am
And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
I feel exactly the same way as you. While I do agree with what you said about Aesaar completely, it's the behaviour of the whole clique rather than just Aesaar singly that makes me feel that way (almost feel bad). Like I've wanted to talk about this stuff lately, but end up feeling kinda sorta like I'm part of the elitist dogpile even though I'm not and I just want to have a friendly talk.

I'd be surprised if us saying this made any difference though. This post is more in a you won't know unless you try vein and for the benefit of the people in the thread that I've been talking to in order to outline my own position in this thread so there's no confusion. So they know I'm not looking down on them or anything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 16, 2015, 09:22:28 pm
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
Everything I write is my opinion.  Some of it is also fact, but I think those bits are fairly obvious.  I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 17, 2015, 01:18:07 am
What do people credit Chris Roberts for exactly that gives him such credentials on Star Citizen?

Wing Commander I was done by Roberts
Wing Commander II was done by another guy
Wing Commander III was developed, engine wise, by another guy
A game like Wing Commander Privateer was developed by Erin Roberts not Chris.

I've always understood III and Privateer to be the most well-received games.

IV I understood to ride the coat-tails of III and with V, those coat tails were getting worn a bit thin.

If you look at the guy's wiki page it says:
Wing Commander was published later in 1990 and was highly acclaimed. Wing Commander (and the franchise it spawned) soon became Origin's most successful product. Roberts wasn't as heavily involved in the sequel Wing Commander II, which he only produced. He instead concentrated on Strike Commander. First shown to the public at Summer CES 1991, the project suffered from numerous delays and was not released until 1993. He returned to Wing Commander soon after, devising the original concept for the spin-off Wing Commander: Privateer (which his brother, Erin Roberts, produced) and being more deeply involved in Wing Commander III and Wing Commander IV. For these sequels, Roberts directed the live-action cinematic scenes.

Games are always a collaborative process and for someone who seems to jump in and out of the development pipeline it's not really clear to me why so much credit would be attributed to him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 17, 2015, 02:51:59 am
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 17, 2015, 06:58:53 am
A game like Wing Commander Privateer was developed by Erin Roberts not Chris.

I've always understood III and Privateer to be the most well-received games.

Privateer was produced by Erin Roberts. Erin is also head of global production of Star Citizen, and his studio, Foundry 42, is deeply involved in all aspects of SC development. I just hope that he can keep this project on track..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 17, 2015, 08:14:56 am
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Good for you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 09:38:49 am
meanwhile, fps module still looks like utter **** (and, uh, is mostly being shown off from third person, which is p. suspicious)

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 17, 2015, 10:50:50 am
That looks so jerky, jittery, terrible and unfun. How long ago was this suppose to come out again?
It's clear they are being incredibly hampered by all the 'first person animation must match third person animations' nonsense. How can you **** up a FPS in an engine that is literally made for FPS games?

Also I can't get over the fact that its supposedly taking place like XXXXX years in the future and they are using iron sights and basically the same kind of guns you could find today. Even the latest call of duty has higher technology going on than this.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 10:53:38 am
If you look closely there's only about half a second of footage of first-person shooting in the entire video, and it looks like total ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 17, 2015, 11:48:11 am
 I don't have a problem with kinetic weapons but you'd think with all the super advanced technology they'd move away from ~600-1000 RPM guns with 30 round capacity.
And why are they reloading them manually? Surely with all the space tech they have they could have a much faster auto-reload system. It just looks like they nicked the FPS mechanics from some random shovelware released in 2009.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 17, 2015, 12:29:10 pm
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Good for you.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 12:29:57 pm
That's what's so ****ing crazy about it, it's not lazy shovelware: they spent years and a ridiculous amount of development resources independently redeveloping a lazy shovelware FPS.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:11:05 pm
Also I can't get over the fact that its supposedly taking place like XXXXX years in the future and they are using iron sights and basically the same kind of guns you could find today. Even the latest call of duty has higher technology going on than this.
I looked at the Star Citizen timeline. The game is set in 2945. That's nearly a thousand years. However, there could be an explanation for it. Maybe the advanced weapons exist, but it's all around more cost effective to equip personnel with these kinds of weapons. Or maybe since we're fighting in space, more powerful weapons would be dangerous if they holed whatever they were fighting on.

And also it's still a game where you need the game to be fun. Weapon technology nowadays is already ****ing scary. Firing off missiles from thousands of miles away to hit targets with near pinpoint accuracy. That kind of thing would be no fun in a game, and is why we have fighters dogfighting with each other.

But there is certainly room inbetween all that for fancy futuristic weapons. I'm thinking about Perfect Dark and the Timesplitters series which featured some very cool futuristic weapons and secondary functions to go with them and they were still fun to use. It's a missed opportunity to create some unique and eye catching weaponry. You could hand out personal shields to everyone as well and then you could have some truly ridiculous weaponry firing ridiculous amounts of bullets with the personal shields soaking up tons of damage, and if they wanted to stick with the realism thing, as soon as the shield goes down one shot can deliver the final blow. So players could tank damage from ridiculous kinetic weapons, energy weapons, weapons firing thick beams of energy, explosive ammunition, so you could tank shots from rocket launchers and the like to a limited extent, anything you can think of. Though this might be limited by what I said about holing whatever you're fighting on, there's still plenty of room between to work with. And you can bet weapons makers in the future would want to make weapons suitable for combat in space to maximise effectiveness against personnel and minimise damage to the ship.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 01:12:10 pm
The game is set in 2945.

they couldn't even pick the ****ing year without cribbing from something else
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:19:27 pm
Well technically they didn't do that. The date isn't fixed. It's moving with the current date and started out as 2942 in 2012.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 01:20:33 pm
aye but lorric, riddle me this: what was going on exactly 1000 years before both 2942 and 2945
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:24:31 pm
WW2. It's not going to be a WW2 story though is it? We think they're taking from the Vandals and Rome instead. I'm guessing they just wanted to start with the 42 there. It won't be 42-45 by the time it releases, if it does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 17, 2015, 03:19:16 pm
There's still no reason for the guns to look so... 1970. And if extremely strong weapons would ruin the fun then just handwave in really strong armor. Make the weapons feel futuristic and exciting. Just add some holographics, high constrast Tron lines, and make players implode when they die or something. You're not even touching game balance yet you're still making it feel more futuristic and exciting.
Or just make it seem like you're firing a lot more bullets than you actually are. Tweak the effects and the HUD while still only tracking 10-20 bullets per second to minimise CPU load. A lot of current games already do this kind of stuff with super high RPM miniguns.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 17, 2015, 03:48:45 pm
Or just make it seem like you're firing a lot more bullets than you actually are. Tweak the effects and the HUD while still only tracking 10-20 bullets per second to minimise CPU load. A lot of current games already do this kind of stuff with super high RPM miniguns.
This would go against CR obsession with simulating everything.  They even have headbobbing because they can't bear the idea of the player viewpoint being a few centimeters away from the character model's eyes for a split second during the walk/run animations.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 17, 2015, 04:14:01 pm
Dont know what you expected, there were bound to be kinetic weapons that resemble todays weapons in the game, they wont wow the player but they wont weird them out either. But I am sure there will be more exotic guns, too. Microwave cannon was mentioned.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 04:36:46 pm
santaball and a zero-g arena were also mentioned, like the microwave cannon they haven't been mentioned again
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 17, 2015, 05:08:52 pm
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3uUE4qNebNU/maxresdefault.jpg)

welcome to the ****ING future
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 17, 2015, 05:27:35 pm
I would just like to state my complete ire for a 1990s/early 2000s style 7 segment LCD display you'd find on a cheap calculator on this year 2900 gun.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 17, 2015, 05:31:59 pm
its an even shorter barrel G-36C
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 17, 2015, 09:09:22 pm
it looks like a G36 put through the Warhammer 40K universe without the justification for the cartoony proportions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: z64555 on October 17, 2015, 11:35:24 pm
What's with the inconsistent weaver rails, tho? Otherwise looks good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 18, 2015, 02:09:29 am
What's with the inconsistent weaver rails, tho? Otherwise looks good.

Looks like they modeled the full sized carry handle and then scaled the last span by about half to fit before texturing
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 19, 2015, 11:03:04 am
Headbob doesn't bother me one iota. It surprises me that it would bother anyone but there you go. If anything I prefer it, it feels much more natural than being like you're some on rails robot, but I care little when you really get down to it.

But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 11:32:27 am
Headbob is ****ing awful, its in the same realm as awful as small fov and it literally makes me sick. I couldn't play half life 2 for more than 2 hours without feeling nausea because of its default ****ty 75 degree fov and headbobbing.
It doesn't add immersion nor does it feel 'natural'.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 19, 2015, 11:39:38 am
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 19, 2015, 11:39:52 am
I can filter out headbob pretty well but I'm not a ****head so I don't tell people who get sick from it that that's their problem.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 19, 2015, 11:44:42 am
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 19, 2015, 12:27:02 pm
@ Karajorma

Very interesting. Thanks. :)

Headbob is ****ing awful, its in the same realm as awful as small fov and it literally makes me sick. I couldn't play half life 2 for more than 2 hours without feeling nausea because of its default ****ty 75 degree fov and headbobbing.
It doesn't add immersion nor does it feel 'natural'.
I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?

This actually makes me think back to a few months ago, I ran into I believe the first game which made me feel sick, Beat Hazard. Also brought on headache iirc. I loved the game, but I'm not able to play it because of all the screen shaking. 5mins on that is enough for the effect to kick in. I tried to tough it out and played the game for several hours but I couldn't get used to it and had to stop and felt wretched for hours after stopping play. I tried a few more times in short bursts hoping it would get easier and I could eventually adapt and break myself in, but it never got any easier. I really wish it was possible to turn off the screen shaking in that game. :sigh:

I don't understand why headbob would have this effect when there are games with so much more jerkiness to them, but if it bothers people like this, then okay, I suppose it's a bad design decision. I don't know if it works the other way on some people who might be really bothered because there isn't headbob, but unless that's the case then you're just leaving money on the table from people who might like your game but physically can't play it. If you really wanted it in your game, maybe there could be a setting to switch it on or off in the options.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 12:58:34 pm
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Ack, please no. Mercy!

I can filter out headbob pretty well but I'm not a ****head so I don't tell people who get sick from it that that's their problem.
Good man.

I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?
I can play unreal tournament for hours on end without any issues. It's mostly a FoV issue, but headbobbing amplifies it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 19, 2015, 01:04:51 pm
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Ack, please no. Mercy!

And here's the kicker: You'll have to flee the prison with your headbob enabled.

MuhuhahhahahAHAHAH
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 01:56:59 pm
You fiend.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2015, 07:44:16 pm
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.  Are they using a free unity asset for testing purposes?
Even this gun set 200 years in the future from a 20-year old movie looks more futuristic:

(http://media.bestofmicro.com/aliens-m-41a-pulse-rifle,M-P-271681-13.jpg)

Is the game going to simulate ricochets? I wonder how fun it will be to fire a ton of bullets into a metal hallway or off a bulkhead? Will you get decompression?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 21, 2015, 11:27:14 am
I found this to be a pretty good read:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 21, 2015, 11:57:56 am
If the bullets don't ricochet, my immersion is irredeemedly destroyed. And they better ricochet differently according to materials. OR ELSE.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 21, 2015, 12:27:40 pm
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 21, 2015, 01:12:28 pm
I found this to be a pretty good read:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/


James Hicks is uninformed about SC rendering tech, so take the first part of this blog with a huge grain of salt. Star Citizen is using reversed 32-bit floating point depth buffer, devs have confirmed that already. This allows them to render objects at any range correctly, from centimeters to millions of kilometers, and it does not need any complex camera trickery to do it. More info about reversed depth buffer here:

http://outerra.blogspot.sk/2012/11/maximizing-depth-buffer-range-and.html

Quote
You need to be painting a 32bit picture for the GPU, a snapshot based on the larger 64bit picture your game engine has… every frame. If this sounds complex, that’s because it is.

It really is not, it is a simple and elegant solution. What may take long is converting an entire Cryengine to use this system, but not because of any inherent complexity of "camera-relative" rendering, but because it is just a very long task to convert such a huge codebase to use doubles for all positional calculations (which are everywhere in 3d engines) and camera relative positions for the renderer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 21, 2015, 05:39:11 pm
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 26, 2015, 01:16:01 am
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.

The ergonomics and design of firearms are pretty well settled by now, constrained far more by the basic limiting factors of having to be used by human beings than by the underlying technology. Expecting projectile chemical-reaction firearms to look radically different from what you know is more reflective of a problem with you.

So if you want to make criticism, y'know, find stuff that's not horrendously nitpicky and kind of silly. There's a lot of it, as this thread demonstrates.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 26, 2015, 03:37:24 am
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.

The ergonomics and design of firearms are pretty well settled by now, constrained far more by the basic limiting factors of having to be used by human beings than by the underlying technology. Expecting projectile chemical-reaction firearms to look radically different from what you know is more reflective of a problem with you.

So if you want to make criticism, y'know, find stuff that's not horrendously nitpicky and kind of silly. There's a lot of it, as this thread demonstrates.

Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 26, 2015, 05:11:32 am
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?

You will not have a heads up display available all the time, so display on the gun makes complete sense. If you want to nitpick, then the issue is that it looks like an old LCD alphanumeric type, such technology would probably be long deprecated. We dont know what material is it made of or if it can fold for storage.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 26, 2015, 05:37:33 am
Even in a HUD situation, Having a backup display on the weapon is not a bad idea as they are not mutually exclusive and provides the shooter with a backup of that information in case the HUD display is unusable for some reason. though the fact that the display looks like it came off a cheap 90's calculator doesn't help

My main complaint is that you can clearly see the weapon is a G36 derivative design to the point they botched the utility rail to make if fit the altered barrel length.  even an XM-8 while ergonomically almost identical to the M4 looks very different.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2015, 12:36:30 pm
Even Airplane designers in 2015 know that having a full display of combat area is an incredible advantage (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/07/magic-helmet-for-f-35-ready-for-delivery/), but somehow designers in 2900 forgot all this and thought that polluting your screen with stupid tablets all over the place reducing your actual combat awareness by 40/60% is the ****.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about stupid led counters in a stupid FPS that nobody will play. But that cockpit. That ****ing cockpit.

I won't shut up about it. Volition did a thousand times better job in 1998 with its cockpit than a multimegamillion company with the craziest shiny graphical engines of 2015.

I just won't shut up abo.... ok I will shut up about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 26, 2015, 01:02:49 pm
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?

You will not have a heads up display available all the time, so display on the gun makes complete sense. If you want to nitpick, then the issue is that it looks like an old LCD alphanumeric type, such technology would probably be long deprecated. We dont know what material is it made of or if it can fold for storage.

I'm not nitpicking I'm expressing an opinion.  The overall look of the gun is simply not futuristic and the LCD display is simply one aspect of the overall failure.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 26, 2015, 03:05:52 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/xfQ72t9.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Q8pEre7.png)

Perfectly normal for lead developers to leave in the middle of a project.  Everything is fine.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 26, 2015, 03:42:45 pm
Even Airplane designers in 2015 know that having a full display of combat area is an incredible advantage (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/07/magic-helmet-for-f-35-ready-for-delivery/), but somehow designers in 2900 forgot all this and thought that polluting your screen with stupid tablets all over the place reducing your actual combat awareness by 40/60% is the ****.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about stupid led counters in a stupid FPS that nobody will play. But that cockpit. That ****ing cockpit.

I won't shut up about it. Volition did a thousand times better job in 1998 with its cockpit than a multimegamillion company with the craziest shiny graphical engines of 2015.

I just won't shut up abo.... ok I will shut up about it.
I hear ya, this was one of my first complaints when I had my first look at arena commander. The actual action happens at like half of your screen, the rest of this estate is taken up by all sorts of stuff.

I'm personally a big fan of not having a cockpit, like in FS2. But if you absolutely must have a cockpit, have something like in Starlancer http://ibin.co/2KPbMcmcsu8s at most.
You still get the idea of being inside a fighter, it shakes a bit when afterburning and it tilts a bit when turning. While having the vast majority of your screen estate dedicated to seeing what the **** is going on outside the cockpit. Don't dedicate so much time to making **** that obscures your vision in the name of 'immersion' **** damnit ****s.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2015, 04:42:10 pm
Yeah, that Starlancer example is not that bad. Somehow my mind went absolutely into that Steve Jobs presentation about the iPhone, when he was showing his "competition"...

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/dsc_0172.jpg)

... and was like "Yeah the problem is all this bottom 40 here"


Also, ROFL at that Dan Tracy guy leaving. "No tanks near Bagdad guys...."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 26, 2015, 06:04:07 pm
Also, ROFL at that Dan Tracy guy leaving. "No tanks near Bagdad guys...."

(http://i.imgur.com/WEC6mIQ.jpg)

Spoiler:
I didn't make this.  Found it on SA.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 26, 2015, 06:33:06 pm
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 26, 2015, 06:40:09 pm
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 26, 2015, 09:22:10 pm
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback

Their choice, I still use a BlackBerry and I'm very happy with it.

When it comes to cockpits, I tend to also prefer not to have them. In Diaspora it is pretty much canon that you can see the ship, but normally I'd prefer to leave the cockpit as an optional extra.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 03:51:56 am
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback

Their choice, I still use a BlackBerry and I'm very happy with it.

When it comes to cockpits, I tend to also prefer not to have them. In Diaspora it is pretty much canon that you can see the ship, but normally I'd prefer to leave the cockpit as an optional extra.

at the same time you kept the cockpit to a minimum
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 27, 2015, 04:30:41 am
Yeah, because the Viper cockpit was patterned after the Show cockpits, which in turn took inspiration from the F-16 and F/A-18, which unlike the fighters in SC, are flown by actual pilots during actual combat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2015, 04:58:43 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 05:19:17 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 05:27:17 am
Simmer down please everyone. No need for personal insults and please keep it respectful.

Some folks like the way Star Citizen is shaping up.

Some people have criticisms with it.

Both points of view are OK and can co-exist. If you don't like it, don't buy in to it.

I have bought into it and really hope it's not a huge and elaborate scam that D.Smart claims it to be. I do find it odd that he's going after SC specifically with such gusto - especially after his lacklustre own work - but time will tell what they can do.

In the meantime - as above - please simmer down.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 05:29:56 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2015, 06:20:10 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal

Some dislike "personal", I dislike "handwaved generalizing righteous condescending remarks".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 06:38:16 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I was referring to Luis Dias
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 27, 2015, 08:03:01 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal

Some dislike "personal", I dislike "handwaved generalizing righteous condescending remarks".

Then grow a thicker skin! It's not like you never use them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 08:19:35 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I was referring to Luis Dias

I know, but I was replying to Fineus' comment about it being strange that Derek has the knives out for SC. I suppose I could have made it clearer it was that part I was replying to.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 08:29:02 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.

I do see your point... but we (that is the FreeSpace community) of all should know how he can carry on. Remember when he started in on us a few years back? It was ridiculous, petty and seeing his outbursts on Twitter towards SC brings back some major deja vu.

That said, SC *does* have to prove its worth and all they have to do is not deliver in order for Derek to get a big fat 'I told you so'. In the meantime he's by far their most vocal critic. Unfortunately I never have rated his own ability so don't quite know why he's on a high horse about this as though he's some sort of gaming god. If anything - Chris Roberts of SC has a better established legacy of games to date.

I guess time will tell... I just hope it doesn't escalate to a point it damages SC's reputation beyond repair (which I imagine Derek is looking to orchestrate).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 09:42:07 am
Fineus: I'm genuinely curious about why you've still got money in SC.  I mean, if the game does get to release and is good, you could buy it then.  But SC's development hasn't been a smooth affair.  They missed every deadline they ever set except for one (which they only met after missing it two or three times), and what they've released has massive gameplay issues.  They have $93M, so your money makes no difference to them, so what part of this project makes you confident enough to keep money in it?

Basically, why have you preordered SC when there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests CR could still screw it up like he did his last game?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 27, 2015, 09:59:41 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

I think this thread has plenty of condescension to go around, no need to single anyone out.

Basically, why have you preordered SC when there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests CR could still screw it up like he did his last game?

Speaking for myself: I put down $20 because Arena Commander looked like fun, and I needed something new to get me 6DOF pew pew fix. I didn't see it as a preorder, and I don't see any particular point in "getting my money back." For $20 it's not worth the effort, even if I was sure SC is going to tank (and I'm not sure).

Another way to put it: I got what I paid for. Any actual game that eventually shows up will be a nice bonus. :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 10:04:50 am
Fineus: I'm genuinely curious about...

Fair question! I’ll give you a short answer and a slightly longer one…

1)   I bought into the hype.

2)   The idea of a game with such scope, detail and range is highly attractive to me. Other games (like Eve or Elite: Dangerous) haven’t been my cup of tea – I’m not saying they’re bad – I just didn’t ‘get’ them. So this game is my hope for a good space shooter. Having played space module (Arena Commander) I really enjoyed it and find it runs very smoothly on my machine. If they can release a game based around that then I’ll be happy. That’s what I want.

I’m not putting any more funding into SC. I’ve backed it and probably spent more money than is sensible on it – but it’s been within my budget. Call it a gamble if you like – lots of people gamble thousands away with nothing to show for it and people let them get on with it. I see this a little like that – but there is something somewhat more tangible in terms of what the return could be.

If I get burned, I’m going to be upset – but I’m not going to take to the internet and say *anything* - I’ll just have been stung and that’s that. I’m an adult. I made my decisions and since I’m not scraping by day by day in order to fuel my SC spending, it’s not a problem.

More than that I can’t really say. Am I saying ‘it’s definitely going to happen’? No – I can’t. But I remain optimistic and if it comes to nothing then it will simply be a shame for me.

That said – for the wider gaming community – it’ll be a tragedy. It’ll be a blow to crowd funded projects as anyone looking to cast doubt on any project will only need to point at SC and say ‘they had millions and didn’t make it, need I say more?’.

I guess we’ll see… but I’m not going to let it ruin my day. In the meantime I’m all for factually criticising their efforts – but Derek Smart has become fanatical about going after this and I can’t abide his methods or mannerisms.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 10:40:31 am
cant say fairer than that Fineus
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2015, 11:07:21 am
and what they've released has massive gameplay issues. 

It does have bugs but Arena Commander is already fun to play, IMHO. Gameplay has similar feel to Diaspora, which is a good thing. So even if AC is all there was, Id probably buy it. After all, there arent many proper 6DoF combat sims around, are there. And its not like paying $40 will ruin anyone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on October 27, 2015, 12:19:54 pm
cant say fairer than that Fineus

Fineus for forum adm... wait.
/me would be all over a +1 feature if this forum had one.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 27, 2015, 12:40:23 pm
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.

I do see your point... but we (that is the FreeSpace community) of all should know how he can carry on. Remember when he started in on us a few years back?

You mean remember when Derek Smart joined a thread which for 4 and a half pages had been insulting him? Yeah I remember that.
It started with Karajorma saying he was scared by the news and doubted that Derek Smart could 'do any better than his boys' and went downhill from there.

It was ridiculous, petty and seeing his outbursts on Twitter towards SC brings back some major deja vu.

HLP reaped what it sowed.
The only difference between developers like Derek Smart, Chris Roberts and other companies is that some people are smart enough to have a PR man/woman between them and the public.  Neither Smart nor Roberts are apparently inclined to do that (or in the case of Roberts, to make use of it in the recent debacle)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 02:32:19 pm
and what they've released has massive gameplay issues. 

It does have bugs but Arena Commander is already fun to play, IMHO. Gameplay has similar feel to Diaspora, which is a good thing. So even if AC is all there was, Id probably buy it. After all, there arent many proper 6DoF combat sims around, are there. And its not like paying $40 will ruin anyone.
No, AC does not play similarly to Diaspora.  It wants to, but completely fails.  The reason for this are:

Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult.  Which brings me to the second issue:

Time to kill is far, far too long.  The harder it is to aim your weapons, the shorter the TTK should be.  SC has gone the other way.  It's hard to hit and it takes forever to kill.  This is why I say the biggest enemy in AC is boredom.  It takes forever to get a gun kill.

There are other issues too, like the terrible HUDs, the cockpits that obscure most of the fights, the poor visual and auditory feedback when you're getting shot at, but those are the two biggest ones.


I think AC is worse than Diaspora in every way except graphics, and even that's debatable.  AC's effects and sounds are pretty bad.

For example, the explosions shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJjIffF8N0) look terrible.



As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.  And sure, SC isn't done, but flight mechanics are something that should have been nailed down ages ago.  If it plays like this after 3.5 - 4 years of development, it isn't going to change much between now and release.  AC is what made me get out of SC.  It's what tore down the hype fog and convinced me that CR's vision for this game just wasn't going to result in something I'd like, and it's what made me open to evaluating the other problems the project has.  I played in again a few weeks back and it hasn't meaningfully improved.

When they add multi-crew ships, expect AC to get worse.  Multi-crew turreted ships will either be horribly vulnerable or they'll rule the battlespace.  I have never seen a sim, atmospheric or space, that has managed to make them balanced with single-seaters.  Most games make them vulnerable because otherwise, single-seaters are useless.  But if SC goes that route, backers who bought those expensive 250$ ships will rage.  Quite a quandary.


Fineus: Like headdie said, that's very fair.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2015, 04:03:00 pm
Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult. 

Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?

Ship flailing was a lot worse in the past, I suspect it has to do with imperfect IFCS rather than maximum thruster strengths. Since AC simulates everything, IFCS is tricky.

I do agree that time to kill could be shorter, tough. It was increased several patches ago and I think they will scale it back a bit in the future.

As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.

You dont need millions to make fun gameplay at all. Diaspora is great, comparing AC gameplay to it is a compliment.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2015, 04:21:25 pm
Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?

Yeah, that must be it, FreeSpace has made him soft :nod:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 27, 2015, 05:45:11 pm
As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.
About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.

Freespace 2 in current form stacks up well against anything that exists in the genre afaik. And if it doesn't, I want to know about what it doesn't measure up to so I can play it! :)

I've seen Diaspora held up as a kind of shining example and showcase of what the modern capabilities of Freespace 2 are capable of. I would consider anything that could put the best this place has to offer in the shade as an outstanding achievement even with the great resources Roberts has at his disposal. He's got all those staff, resources and money, but they're starting from scratch with everything, and they don't have the got to be going on 20 years total of time from when work started on the original Freespace to now that's gone into making Freespace 2 what it is today.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 06:23:11 pm
You mean remember when Derek Smart joined a thread which for 4 and a half pages had been insulting him? Yeah I remember that.
It started with Karajorma saying he was scared by the news and doubted that Derek Smart could 'do any better than his boys' and went downhill from there.

I should point out that the showcasing of the best FS2 mods in that post was somewhat deliberate given that the we knew that thread was going to get a lot of outside attention.

That said, I'll agree that in the last thread Derek Smart participated in on here, he was a lot better behaved and it was the behaviour of the members of this forum that made me cringe.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 06:48:47 pm
Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult. 

Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?
Yep, that's it right there.  I'm too used to space sims and WW2 flight sims where my space/aircraft does what I want it to do.  Oh, if only Star Citizen could save me from these simplistic ideas and teach me that half the battle should be with my own ship's controls.  Then I'd be a true hardcore gamer.

For reference, I played with a Super Hornet, a Gladius, and a Mustang.


As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.
About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.

Freespace 2 in current form stacks up well against anything that exists in the genre afaik. And if it doesn't, I want to know about what it doesn't measure up to so I can play it! :)

I've seen Diaspora held up as a kind of shining example and showcase of what the modern capabilities of Freespace 2 are capable of. I would consider anything that could put the best this place has to offer in the shade as an outstanding achievement even with the great resources Roberts has at his disposal. He's got all those staff, resources and money, but they're starting from scratch with everything, and they don't have the got to be going on 20 years total of time from when work started on the original Freespace to now that's gone into making Freespace 2 what it is today.
FSO is an amazing project, and Diaspora is probably the pinnacle of what's been done with the engine, and it's one of the best spaace sims ever made.  Yes, FSO's had a lot of work put into it over the years.  But FSO has never had 300+ people working on it full time for 3 years and $93M in funding.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if SC had more man-hours put into it than FSO has.  SC's 'realistic' flight mechanics are what people typically like to point to when explaining why AC is so rough.  That something that complex has never been done before.  But they're wrong.  Flight sims with this kind of fidelity have been done before.

IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad started development in 2011 and was completed last year.  This is a realistic WW2 flight simulator.  As a result, their flight models and combat environments are significantly more complex than any space sim, purely because it's atmospheric combat and has more to consider.  No, it's not completely simulated (that would be pretty much impossible), but it's still more variables to track than a space-based environment needs.  All SC needs to consider is ship mass and thruster location/power.  That's it.  And yet IL-2: BoS has more aircraft than SC does, it's a more complete combat simulator, and the developer completed it with less money and a smaller team.  Star Citizen has no excuse for being in the state it's in.

Multicrew isn't that big a deal when CIG still haven't finished honing their basic combat mechanics.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 27, 2015, 07:33:14 pm
A good chunk of those 300+ people will have been working on things that don't exist within freespace 2. The FPS, the design of characters, the interior ship designs and mechanics, the 10 hours of story segments they have planned, everything to do with the persistent universe and the people they have interacting with the fanbase. I've probably missed more stuff.

So it comes down to how many people and how long have they worked on the mechanics and gameplay of space combat and the design of ships and weapons and such. Obviously they also have the advantage of their cutting edge tech. If Star Citizen does make it out of the door, the fairest comparison with Freespace will probably be comparing Freespace 2 to Squadron 42.

I've not played (or even seen in action) IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad, so I have no idea what it's like or how good of a candidate for comparison to Star Citizen it is, but I understand your explanation for why you brought it up.

I do of course agree that with the resources they have and the promises they made that they need to produce an excellent game. I was mainly concerned about the strength of Freespace 2 being sold short and that doesn't seem like an issue anymore. Thanks for replying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 08:41:14 am
I see now.  Aesaar is just the most negative of nancies.  Very well then, carry on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 01:17:57 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:03:01 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:26:52 pm
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

This is absolutely hilarious to me as someone who actually watched Aesaar's journey from being optimistic and defensive about Star Citizen to being as scathing as he is now, spurred on largely by the dismal failure of Arena Commander to present any kind of interesting gameplay.

It's also hilarious when I myself started out mildly sceptical of SC and actively hostile to Elite: Dangerous only to have that perception completely turned around by Frontier's ability to deliver an engaging space combat simulator. And don't give me any fanboy excuses about 'scope', E:D has vastly more completed content.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 28, 2015, 02:30:21 pm
Well, from my PoV, the chief failing of Star Citizen is failing to deliver compelling game play.

In its current state, I'm not pleased we've waited a few years already and still don't have a solidified package yet. I get it was supposedly Privateer the next coming, but to be frank, I'd rather take a good dogfight simulator over a star-studded cast for the single player component. Probably another two to three years before it'll be sewn together, but after a while the recent offerings have been less than spectacular.

I would be a lot happier if we had a decent flight module with multiplayer, multicrewed ships, and fireworks.

That being said, I'm putting SC on the backburner with a "wait and see" approach. Perhaps the long wait will be worth it, or else we'll get a subpar product. It's probably at the point it's too "invested" to fail, but I've certainly abandoned any vibes of a Wing Commander experience until it actually happens or crashes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:34:42 pm
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

This is absolutely hilarious to me as someone who actually watched Aesaar's journey from being optimistic and defensive about Star Citizen to being as scathing as he is now, spurred on largely by the dismal failure of Arena Commander to present any kind of interesting gameplay.

It's also hilarious when I myself started out mildly sceptical of SC and actively hostile to Elite: Dangerous only to have that perception completely turned around by Frontier's ability to deliver an engaging space combat simulator. And don't give me any fanboy excuses about 'scope', E:D has vastly more completed content.

I am playing Elite, and I know how far the game has come since launch and it's really impressive.  I come across people who havent played in months and complain about things that havent been issues for a while, and they sound like Aesaar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 02:36:30 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

No, I'd get banned because dissent gets banned on RSI.  But I'm glad you're here to tell us how looking at how other games in SC's genre were developed is invalid because SC is speshul.   Clearly, the only person who knows how to make games is Christ Roberts.  That's why CIG have missed all of their deadlines.  The scope of the game has changed massively since, er, last year.

(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've obviously been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:38:15 pm
I mean, this is how game development works. It's Freelancer all over again, with no publisher to kick CR off the project so it can be released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:40:14 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:43:25 pm
being finished is generally considered an important feature of a game
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 28, 2015, 02:44:11 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

Depends. Publishers crush studios who repeatedly fail deadlines, while others realize that giving a "specific" deadline is a bad ideas because they shift due to a myriad of circumstances,. But I think we're not above holding Star Citizen to scrutiny. Perhaps they would've just benefited and straight up said "We're making an AAA level of game, five years is at least to be expected."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 02:45:19 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
Deadlines are important to every project.  If a team consistently fails to meet deadlines set by that team's leader, it shows a serious issue with management, either because he/she overestimates their team's abilities or underestimates the work required (or in Roberts' case, changes his mind about features all the time).  The people handling the actual technical side of things at CIG are very, very talented.  CIG management is incompetent.  If it were not, they wouldn't have missed all their deadlines.

You can't point to increasing scope as the cause of this.  That image I posted up there was shown at CitCon last year (or later, can't remember).  The only item on that list they've delivered is the Social module, a glorified Mass Effect landing zone but with multiplayer and nothing to actually do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 28, 2015, 02:50:30 pm
Consider this: From that timeline, the only thing that was even remotely near schedule was the "planetside" thing. And what was it again? A single map, not even a particularly large one, mostly empty and technically unimpressive, very much a generic brown-grey sci fi city map that looked a lot like the Vancouver multiplayer maps from Mass Effect 3. Oh, and there was a chat client in there.

Sure, those are all building blocks that are needed. But a grand revolution in spacesim or MMO gameplay it wasn't. Just like the hangar, it's a showcase for the modeller's skills and nowhere near anything resembling a game.

And that was all they could produce, three years after the start of principal development, with 300 people and 90 million USD in the bank. Other game studios have produced full games with less money and less time. Yes, I know SC has got a larger scope than most MMOs. but in the same timeframe, Elite went from kickstarter to released game, with a steady stream of content updates that make the game deeper. Compared to its peers in the MMO Space Sim genre, SC shows sluggish development, a weird approach to communicating the state of the project, a community eager to throw money at the promise of a jpg, and a thoroughly unpleasant approach to criticisms on its own site or associated communities like the SC reddit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on October 28, 2015, 02:56:11 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

When the money eventually runs out due to deadlines being missed, I wonder how their cult followers backers will react.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 28, 2015, 03:00:40 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

When the money eventually runs out due to deadlines being missed, I wonder how their cult followers backers will react.
That's something I'm worried about actually. I think it could do some real damage to some of these people.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 28, 2015, 03:56:55 pm
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.

It may realistically take 5 years to develop a big game like SC.

2012 + 5 = 2017

As for Elite, it has much less content than Star Citizen is supposed to have. You cannot leave your seat. It is not a bad game, but it is pretty shallow. I expect much more from SC. So its no surprise that Elite is already released, when it was much simpler to make. You are comparing apples and oranges. And dont even get me started on their weird fly model, Arena Commander in its unfinished state is already superior to that mess, IMHO..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 28, 2015, 04:27:44 pm
As for Elite, it has much less content than Star Citizen is supposed to have. You cannot leave your seat. It is not a bad game, but it is pretty shallow. I expect much more from SC. So its no surprise that Elite is already released, when it was much simpler to make. You are comparing apples and oranges. And dont even get me started on their weird fly model, Arena Commander in its unfinished state is already superior to that mess, IMHO..

Correction: You cannot do so now. You will be able to as part of the Horizon upgrades, incoming over the next year. See, the thing is, while SC is trying to come out of the gate with every single thing in place, Frontier concentrated on getting the core of the game done and are now expanding it. This model seems to work out much better than CIG's "Let's hire a bunch of studios to work on pieces of the game in isolation and hope we can merge it into a coherent whole at some point" approach.

And as for the flight model, while that's ultimately a matter of personal preference, I think for all the comparisons between SC and Diaspora we're making in this regard, Elite actually managed to create a flight model that is more responsive and intuitive than both.

Not to mention that playing Elite actually feels much better due to it being very scalable indeed, as opposed to the unoptimized mess that seems to be Arena Commander.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 28, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

Correction: You cannot do so now. You will be able to as part of the Horizon upgrades, incoming over the next year.


Well, sort of. You get a fade-to-black transition to a different seat. :) I think "space legs" and being able to walk around properly won't be coming until 2017 at the earliest.


And as for the flight model, while that's ultimately a matter of personal preference, I think for all the comparisons between SC and Diaspora we're making in this regard, Elite actually managed to create a flight model that is more responsive and intuitive than both.

All three have the same basic constraint of "we like 6DOF newtonian physics but want flying to actually be fun", and choose slightly different ways of breaking physics to achieve that result.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 04:56:40 pm
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.
Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal.  Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is.  Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 28, 2015, 05:16:19 pm
So here's a horrible hitjob on Star Citizen's cockpit.

First, a clear screenshot of it:

(http://i.imgur.com/EIrBTWi.jpg)

A 1920 x 1080 basic screenshot of PURE IMMERSIVENESS. That means a whole 2 073 600 pixels.

Now, let's all count the number of pixels that are 100% opaque to the actual beautiful things on the universe, and the incredible IMMERSIVE overlays that will let you know everything you want to know about this very very immersive breathable game.

(http://i.imgur.com/wcxLplF.jpg?1)

Now, the real opaque stuff counts to ~ 919 150 pixels. That's 44% of the entire screen of immersive junk on your face.
The overlays will count to ~ 243 000 pixels, slightly less than 12%.

So, for all those keeping score, that's 56% of the screen encumbered by something, most of which utterly opaque, leaving merely 44% of the screen estate to try to understand what the **** is going on. And these 44% are all fragmented. There's this small opening up in the top that is absolutely useless, and then there are these front-left and front-right awareness windows that are hard to pin down whatever the **** is going on there.

The one window where you'd think it would be the most important one to figure the **** out what the hell is going on has a STAGGERING 175 000 pixels. Which amounts to 8.5% of the total. Eight. Point. Five.

Funny stat: Even in 1998, running Freespace 2 at 640x480 (I mean, who would burn their eyes at that, but still!), you'd still be left with 307 200 pixels (Most of which with overlays, BUT STILL).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 28, 2015, 05:35:14 pm
It's very bad. It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not. It feels claustrophobic. And having that box around the centre is going to make it harder to line things up properly and cause irritation.

This is the far future, we should be able to have entirely enclosed cockpits but the technology makes it so you can see everything as if you were looking through clear glass.

Desire to actually play this if released would take a big hit for me if I was forced to have that cockpit on screen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 28, 2015, 05:36:15 pm
Quote
It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not.
They won't be. You'll be forced into all this immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: SkycladGuardian on October 28, 2015, 05:38:43 pm
Hehe, this reminds me of the "good ol' " days of space sims in the early and mid 90's where cockpits vhelped to visualize the ship class you're flying. Interceptors and space superioriy fighters had good vision with few cockpit elements cluttering up the main view (like the A-Wing or Arrow in WC3) and heavy fighters and bombers had bulky cockpits and the view was very encumbered (e.g. Y-Wing, TIE Bomber, Longbow or Broadsword).

Chris Roberts just wants you to feel the spirit of his retro-style next-gen space sim ;)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 05:41:51 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

What's proper game development I wonder?
Is it gray boxing a game and getting the basic components and gameplay down before applying the finishing touches?
Or is it creating an okay game with very detailed models and then starting and finishing other very detailed models in turn later on while the gameplay still remains "okay" and unfinished.

I wonder if for the new Doom did Bethesda/iD finish the Imp before bothering to start the Cyber Demon?  Or did they get all enemies at some stage of completion so that they could be put into the game and the level designers could star their work while the modellers, animators and FX guys were finishing theirs.

Star Citizen's development comes across to me as the way a team of amateurs would MOD a game. And in fact some of the teams on HLP are probably doing a better job with their pipelines.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 05:44:49 pm
It's very bad. It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not. It feels claustrophobic. And having that box around the centre is going to make it harder to line things up properly and cause irritation.

This is the far future, we should be able to have entirely enclosed cockpits but the technology makes it so you can see everything as if you were looking through clear glass.

Desire to actually play this if released would take a big hit for me if I was forced to have that cockpit on screen.

Could be worse:
https://youtu.be/oR1MnjqTlXY?t=50s
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 28, 2015, 05:48:58 pm
That's an entirely different game design. The whole theme is to be inside this moving bunker. And each mode of "watching" is actually superior to Star Citizen's.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 07:04:42 pm
Here, for comparison, is a screenshot of Elite: Dangerous' cockpit/HUD:

(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/elite-dangerous-1.png)

Note how it too has a big block taking up the bottom of the screen, but the geniuses at Frontier used this otherwise useless space for the bulk of the HUD, which as a bonus now has a reliably contrasting background. In the rest of the screen, where the universe is, they put in a few small struts and the weapon information.

It's not hard to do this stuff right. CIG are getting it consistently wrong because of chronic mismanagement.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 07:50:37 pm
That's an entirely different game design. The whole theme is to be inside this moving bunker. And each mode of "watching" is actually superior to Star Citizen's.

Yeah, it was a joke.

Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

I know that Star Citizen is going for no holds barred development but presumably they also don't want to release a janky looking video with frame drops every half second.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 08:16:44 pm
I'm expecting to have a VR set by the time I'm playing Star Citizen. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 08:24:26 pm
Too bad Star Citizen's going to be **** on VR because of the obsession with headbob and letterbox helmets.

e: Also VR doesn't compensate for **** cockpit visibility; why do you think real fighter jets have big unobstructed glass bubbles?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 09:53:55 pm
Too bad Star Citizen's going to be **** on VR because of the obsession with headbob and letterbox helmets.

e: Also VR doesn't compensate for **** cockpit visibility; why do you think real fighter jets have big unobstructed glass bubbles?
CIG's focus on realism and verisimilitude is applied to the most nonsensical things.  Rather than design sensible, realistic helmets, CIG intentionally designed stupid helmets just so they'd obscure the edges of the screen, even though that helmet, used by an actual person, would almost completely obscure his/her peripheral vision (because screens have much smaller FoV than human eyes do).  These are helmets designed for CQB environments:

(http://i.imgur.com/Aiy6gw1.jpg)


This is a consistent thing with SC.  Simulate reality, but only halfway.

Helmets obscure vision in real life, so helmets are designed to maximise visibility.   SC forgets that last part.  Helmets designed to obscure narrow screen FoV.  CIG create very poorly designed helmets that would never get accepted IRL because they destroy visibility and therefore situational awareness. 

End result: Less realistic than if they'd left the feature out entirely.


Headbobbing.  Non-issue in real life.  It happens, but your brain filters it out.  SC forgets that last part.   CIG write a complex stabilization engine that sorta smooths it out, but it's still an issue.

End result: less realistic than if they'd left out the feature entirely.


Cockpits are visible in real life, so fighters are designed to maximize cockpit visibility.  SC forgets that last part.  Most ships, even military fighters, have zero rear visibility, fairly mediocre side visibility, and okayish front visibility.  Test pilots would ***** about this nonstop IRL, fighters probably wouldn't get accepted into service because of compromised situational awareness.  To add to this, the cockpit glass in SC is stated to be just as strong as the hull.  It isn't even a weakspot because CIG don't want pilot snipes (this makes the helmets stupid too). 

End result: less realistic than if they'd left out the feature entirely.

Addendum: the F-35 was designed with external cameras which, combined with the helmet, allow the pilot to basically look through the plane.  It doesn't work all that well ATM (like everything else about the F-35), but the point remains.  In 10 or 20 years, cockpit visibility could be a complete non-issue.


I'm tempted to go on because there's even more, but I'm tired, so I'll leave it there.


It's semi-realism.  Just enough to adversely affect gameplay, not enough to actually make sense.


EDIT: I lied. I just couldn't leave this one out because it's hilarious:

Women can wear heels, but they can also not wear heels.  SC forgets that last part.  CIG want women to be able to wear heels, but they don't want to be unrealistic and use the same animations for both, so they made all women wear heels all the time. (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5622483/#Comment_5622483)  (Third last post on the page if post link doesn't work)

End result: lol.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on October 28, 2015, 10:51:52 pm
Is the single player game Roberts is producing (called "Squadron 42" IIRC) having problems too?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 10:54:17 pm
Is the single player game Roberts is producing (called "Squadron 42" IIRC) having problems too?
Yes, it was originally meant to be released in Nov. 2014.  Then last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on October 29, 2015, 01:13:31 am
last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.


...and look at where we are now right?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 02:08:12 am
Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

That's not what's happening here though. In ye olde days (like early Wing Commander olde), the cockpit stuff was there so that you could restrict 3D rendering to only a small part of the screen, but in SC, everything you see on screen goes through the 3D pipeline. They're not going to get a framerate increase by rendering cockpits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 29, 2015, 02:49:46 am
Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal.  Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is.  Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.

I dont agree with that, once game development begins to slip, it is likely you will miss every single deadline, because time adds up. The important part is not how many deadlines they missed, it is how much time did they miss them by. If it is by less than 1-2 years (for a total development time of 4-5 years), I can still forgive them as long as the final product is good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 29, 2015, 03:04:38 am
If one deadline slips you can update the subsequent deadlines to account for that. CIG have done this constantly and they still miss the updated deadlines.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 29, 2015, 10:03:09 am
Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

That's not what's happening here though. In ye olde days (like early Wing Commander olde), the cockpit stuff was there so that you could restrict 3D rendering to only a small part of the screen, but in SC, everything you see on screen goes through the 3D pipeline. They're not going to get a framerate increase by rendering cockpits.
Last time I played WC3 (a year or 3 ago), disabling the cockpit actually gave an incredibly significant increase in frames per second. With cockpit on it would chug along at sub 20 fps.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 10:14:27 am
Huh, that's interesting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 01:14:37 pm
Here, for comparison, is a screenshot of Elite: Dangerous' cockpit/HUD:

(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/elite-dangerous-1.png)

Note how it too has a big block taking up the bottom of the screen, but the geniuses at Frontier used this otherwise useless space for the bulk of the HUD, which as a bonus now has a reliably contrasting background. In the rest of the screen, where the universe is, they put in a few small struts and the weapon information.

It's not hard to do this stuff right. CIG are getting it consistently wrong because of chronic mismanagement.

That's an interesting comparison. Notice how the frame structure of the front windows are thinner and allow a much more fluid understanding of the entire left-right field of view (You can draw a straight line between one edge of the screen to the other without being encumbered by the ship's structure. And you're correct, they placed their HUDs in the correct places, except for two overlays on both the left and the right, which sit on top of.... the very frame structure I was talking about, so to minimize impact on what's seen outside.


I still think it's visually crowded. They could have perfectly downsized the cockpit framework and the below parts. A comparison with my previous screenshot follows:

(http://i.imgur.com/VpoY4fJ.jpg)

2 073 600 pixels the same.
~ 852 400 pixels encumbered by the structure of the ship.
~ 40 000 pixels in overlays over the windows.

That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen). It's not that different a number, but it feels better designed because most of it draws a horizontal line at the bottom which is much nicer in terms of visual design, and the framework on top is way way thinner, giving the impression of continuity between the windows.

2% are spent on overlays on top of those windows, compared with 12% on Star Citizen. This might vary according to missions, etc.

Unencumbered we have then 57% of the screen real estate to watch the sky, compared with the piss poor 44% of Star Citizen. And there's no 8.5% window at the middle of the screen where you have to figure almost everything out in it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 29, 2015, 02:37:58 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

Where I do see an issue are those FPS helmets. Field of view seems far too restricted on them. Probably an issue of Chris chasing after muh immersion while forgetting about realism.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 02:42:58 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

Numerically, it isn't. In terms of how it feels though? Every single E:D cockpit feels spacious, giving you a good overview of the space you're in. SC, by comparison, makes things feel cramped and tiny, and actually overloaded in terms of the information presented. Think of it like this: E:D gives you what you need, SC gives you what it thinks you want.

And SC is pretty much wrong about that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 29, 2015, 02:48:02 pm
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

There's very little variation in E:D, just the model of the dashboard and the exact placement of the struts. Anyway, the percentages are irrelevant: the difference is in the use of screen space. Star Citizen has a big block of obstruction right in the middle of the screen, where the player's attention is focused, and puts the clear views off at either side where they're then just a background to the HUD. The obstructed area at the bottom of the screen is just a blank model, there's no useful information there.

If I had to sum up Star Citizen's design in one word it would be thoughtless.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2015, 02:58:04 pm
*hundreds of individually modeled panels and switches light up*

Yes, immersion. Immerse me

*gloves creak with physically based fabric tension*

I will paw lovingly at the controls. Immerse me. LEt the immersion rise up over my knees and lap against my balls

*an optometrist's helmet with 40000 pinhole sized lenses seals over my head*

Switches. Buttons. More. More HUD. Turn every switch with paralyzed paddle hands until I Activate HUD. The immersion is so warm....

*blinding neon technoflash swarms and spins over all the cockpit glass, immersion splashes over my helmet. everything begins to short circuit and catch on fire*

YESSSssssssss it's like being in the WOMB. I can smell it through my micropore simulated RSI helmet filters. It smells like mother

*my body begins to dissolve into the sea of immersion as the fire spreads*

I'm going home
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2015, 03:02:03 pm
We are boarding the Huhn ship. They charge at us with their katanas screaming 'ten million years' and only a wall of hyperlead from our M2 Garind assault rifles can stop them!

As I take up firing position my model's left toe crunches against a wall. A huge mistake! I will be rightfully punished for failing to treat my avatar as a real person in real space! My character pauses to play a stagger animation and a gorgeously lip-synced howl of pain captured from the voice of major Hollywood actor Rocco Siffredi. Should've pre-ordered the ADRENAL SYSTEM SIMULATOR PACK I think as my Full Immersion Jumpsuit calculates the correct amount of nausea and humiliation to inflict and begins to punch me in the dick
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 04:37:25 pm
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite.

It's like I spent a few quality minutes thinking about the design of both cockpits and gave what I believe is a qualified analysis on both and you just went on and completely ignored it and cherry picked the one quantifiable point where SC is merely "slightly" worse than ED.

That's the kind of comment that makes me think, "yeah I'm glad I make thoughtful and justified comments, there's nothing like being quotemined and dismissed in a few sentences just a minute later".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 04:41:00 pm
You know what's the best DLC they can ever come up with?

A "Virtual Reality Headset" that you will place on your head and suddenly you can see the whole FOV ala FreeSpace2 with overlay information as if the ship didn't even exist.

99 bucks. 109 with custom designed logos and colors.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 29, 2015, 07:53:41 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.
To add to what others have been saying, imagine what it would be like if the Star Citizen cockpit was clear except for a solid square in the centre.

I don't know how Luis is getting his numbers, but I can believe it. And at the same time I was really surprised at that small difference compared to how the different cockpits have made me feel. It makes me think of how you can enter a room and rearrange the items and furniture and make it appear much more spacious even though nothing has been removed from the room.

From what footage of E:D I've watched, I've never felt the cockpits to be a problem, and I don't like cockpits at the best of times. They feel open and spacious. Does that Star Citizen cockpit not bother you at all?

I will paw lovingly at the controls. Immerse me. LEt the immersion rise up over my knees and lap against my balls

Memories...

There wasn't anything extreme about the trip I went on, but there were still some pretty narrow spaces to squeeze through. We also had to wade through some cold water, and I remember one guy shouting "Argh! My balls!" Funny. I was juuuuuust tall enough to avoid this, I mean down to the millimeter. The stalactites and stalacmite formations were extremely beautiful with water glistening off them as well. We also all ended up turning off our helmet lights to experience the total darkness. But there was something wondrous about the whole experience.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 29, 2015, 08:39:02 pm
It's like I spent a few quality minutes thinking about the design of both cockpits and gave what I believe is a qualified analysis on both and you just went on and completely ignored it and cherry picked the one quantifiable point where SC is merely "slightly" worse than ED.

That's the kind of comment that makes me think, "yeah I'm glad I make thoughtful and justified comments, there's nothing like being quotemined and dismissed in a few sentences just a minute later".

The first refuge of people who are wrong is to cherry pick something that makes them feel like they are right. The rest of us got your point and given that this is a modding forum and we've got people who design cockpits here, it's probably very useful, but you're never going to persuade the cult of Star Citizen that they are wrong about anything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on October 30, 2015, 05:12:22 am
So on each of these pics ~half of the screen is black.

You can see the most important factor is the middle of the screen and width/size of black blocks. In SC cockpit even the middle of the canopy rises towards the middle of the screen, obscuring it, not to mention the thick bars. Horizontal canopy with carefully spaced out horizontal struts seems to work better to me.
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/xa7o6.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/xa7o6.jpg)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/125tkci.jpg) (http://oi66.tinypic.com/125tkci.jpg)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/34sgqbq.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/34sgqbq.jpg)
(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2mfkmzl.jpg) (http://oi67.tinypic.com/2mfkmzl.jpg)
(http://oi64.tinypic.com/eqw96w.jpg) (http://oi64.tinypic.com/eqw96w.jpg)
(http://oi68.tinypic.com/2v9f3h5.jpg) (http://oi68.tinypic.com/2v9f3h5.jpg)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2vwikat.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/2vwikat.jpg)
(http://oi64.tinypic.com/1z99v6.jpg) (http://oi64.tinypic.com/1z99v6.jpg)
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/11wbibr.jpg) (http://oi63.tinypic.com/11wbibr.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 30, 2015, 05:15:37 am
Does that Star Citizen cockpit not bother you at all?

It bothers me on Merlin snub fighter, thats where the cockpit covers the middle of the screen. I doubt it will stay that way, tough. Does not bother me much on other fighters, but then I am the kind of guy who is bothered by lack of a cockpit and immediately installs cockpit mod before every FS playthrough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 30, 2015, 08:07:11 am
Karajorma, thanks for the kind word, and Kobrar, that's an excellent, really great exercise :D

Lorric, it's fairly easy to count pixels in Photoshop, through the Histogram function.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 30, 2015, 03:44:32 pm


you are the hero this thread deserves
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 06, 2015, 09:16:34 am
After a couple weeks of back-and-forth, I've gotten my pledge from 2012 refunded in full. I wash my hands of Star Citizen now, perhaps I'll buy back in when/if they actually release.

At this point, I don't think Star Citizen is going anywhere unless CRob gets put on a shorter chain or is removed from a decision-making capacity. Saga of Freelancer, Verse 2.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 06, 2015, 10:06:24 am
He can't get put on a shorter chain without being removed from decisionmaking capacity, and that's never going to happen with Star Citizen's sales pitch and community being built around his cult of personality.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on November 14, 2015, 10:23:25 am
Foundry 42 in debt? (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/665562132990328832)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 14, 2015, 11:01:45 am
The filled accounts say no but its nothing like what they had
companieshouse.gov.uk (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history)
Filed Documents 13 Nov 2015 (https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/8oQR_UpNdWR9q7RkeZ-JtbMq-ZnnUXHoaN2Euymrif0/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAILRC5MA3GE47RXDQ&Expires=1447520108&Signature=D%2BrvAGmrZtkbZM5s5DJHcZ8kb%2BQ%3D&x-amz-security-token=AQoDYXdzEC4a4AP1EBmQMjc0hG6eatVNQh3Q0yTuyEOmFU%2FuJ59uoB6cMzqh9aAV5HrbwRBLr%2Fleqi5N72vfi2aX1GmAVRnvO%2B4ZPFhCpaG6zsTfLzD7AfyrIzMM2BMoA1Mh8DPVjZ9cZGyFO9n1YA3aCrPdrkpSIXZWJpLrTiLfqu0x7sk%2F%2B%2Fe3elQq10Feh1Xh8FjYPZ%2FTLMkwqtUzvVVJU1sbBkYLfh9vFIWytwkNWJ5MuHlb3knGGh65pPyyJUTVFIHGQfHItrzMHVvsBvuUnawLL5ERV8GP3mBcIAiAYNnBMTEj3QbGiv7rSvKQH4iEIor0d9pfBO0HM2RxQmlR2AayhSaE3QWUX90xIJ%2BzzED1Jg2EV27KoXb9ZWKb48Xy55r5aoask5YhGuqCBcRCZeMcNe2hbz4ZsxoePgx54tsmtwpXNoX7dNQ8cZVGrjpyPWxN3jZQPFhWiunCGl6irkXyUUkCL5BfNM9d1wrA1apLhueORW0MklasIRczDR0hCj3WgJhLZzu1zixHxhBM7%2BUQFw0cVQtU7TBaolZFRXzhSrIarlf1kTGeV7Ljl9m%2BbEnervjgAxT%2B7ibshhDwgkqBAwlRh4JIiBIP4uvhnsZiaMgivxdSh07zlyUJDLYBgovVkhNY9u0gvtycsgU%3D)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 14, 2015, 02:58:53 pm
We reading a different document?
Says Current Assetts:

Debtors: 1million or so dollars
Cash in the bank: 640K

1 million - 640K = 360K in debt no?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 14, 2015, 03:04:56 pm
Missed that one thanks.

Also as a small technical point this is a formal submission to Companies House so the values will be Pounds Sterling
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on November 14, 2015, 05:48:16 pm
1 million - 640K = 360K in debt no?
More like million + 640k = 1640k. And this is not in debt.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Black Wolf on November 14, 2015, 08:04:15 pm
The Debtors entry is listed sa "current asset", which means it's a cash or easily-converted-to-cash asset - in this context I'd say it means people owe Squadron 42 £1 million - the most likely source being the parent company or possibly delayed crowdfunding pledges.

In any case, this data is over a year old. Doesn't mean much on the right now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kiloku on November 14, 2015, 08:23:19 pm
I'm sorry to go a bit out of the current subject, but the first post says

Quote
A move that, given his history with HLP, will likely come as a shock to nobody here.

What is his history with HLP? I've been a member for years, but I only ever heard of Derek for the first time this year. This got me curious and I couldn't find it in the thread.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2015, 09:17:38 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 14, 2015, 09:30:27 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.

Loading that thread's second page caused something random to demand a password from me. You...may want to look into that.

Quote
A username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on November 14, 2015, 09:49:47 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.

Loading that thread's second page caused something random to demand a password from me. You...may want to look into that.

Quote
A username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"

I just had the same thing happen, using MS Edge browser.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kiloku on November 14, 2015, 10:16:48 pm
Confirming "hoy chummer" password request also happens here. Firefox 42.0, Windows 10

Edit: About the thread itself. Man, that was 11 years ago. Hard to believe, even.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2015, 10:36:59 pm
Probably an image link to a page that is now password protected. I don't get the request though. The page is probably blocked in China or something so it doesn't get past the DNS request.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 16, 2015, 06:28:28 pm
Derek put another blog post up:
http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/11/interstellar-pirates/ (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/11/interstellar-pirates/)

It's waaay too long but one thing I found interesting from that article was this:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder)

This package allows you to pre-order Squadron 42, bundled with Star Citizen, at its all-time lowest price. This time-limited offer will end in 2016 when Squadron 42 becomes an item of its own.

Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?
Now this sale item is explicitly saying that it will be sold separately?


When and if Squadron 42 does come out I'll bet we'll see two things:
A sale price for Chapter 1
A second price for the "entire" game (aka Season Pass)

And given how much some of the concept ships are selling for I wonder how much that entire game is going to go for. Most games have been ~20 dollars per episode with ~60 dollar full game (Tell Tale Games). Or maybe ~15 dollars for DLC map pack and maybe 4-5 map packs in a season pass. Will SQ42 be this price? Or will it be like 30 dollars for chapter 1 with the full game 100-120 USD (aka Limited Edition game price for stuff with statues and ****)

Also isn't the statement "all time lowest price" an outright lie? Wasn't the minimum price 30 dollars for the KS for the game? How is 45 USD < 30 USD?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 16, 2015, 06:36:44 pm
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?

No, it's been pretty explicit from the start that Squadron 42 will be a single-player prequel campaign that will have some mechanical differences of unknown level from Star Citizen and hence be a different though very closely related program. They'll probably run the same flight engine, but it's been clear they won't necessarily share other bits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 16, 2015, 06:43:55 pm
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?

No, it's been pretty explicit from the start that Squadron 42 will be a single-player prequel campaign that will have some mechanical differences of unknown level from Star Citizen and hence be a different though very closely related program. They'll probably run the same flight engine, but it's been clear they won't necessarily share other bits.

Eh?
"Squadron 42 - A Wing Commander style single player mode, playable OFFLINE if you want"
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

and later:
Is Star Citizen an MMO?
No! Star Citizen will take the best of all possible worlds, ranging from a permanent, persistent world similar to those found in MMOs to an offline, single player campaign like those found in the Wing Commander series. The game will include the option for private servers, like Freelancer, and will offer plenty of opportunities for players who are interested in modding the content. Unlike many games, none of these aspects is an afterthought: they all combine to form the core of the Star Citizen experience.

Either way, calling it a "mode" clearly indicates that it is the same game.  Same executable, different menu choice. Same way Halo as SP, MP and Horde or whatnot.

Now they've changed it. SQ42 is suddenly it's own game, and being sold on its own in the same way that Call of Duty might sell a SP campaign for 60 USD and a multiplayer game separately for 60 USD. Which would be ridiculous, just as the multi-player only COD for last gen consoles is itself kinda ridiculous.

Just basically cutting up the game to get more money, and likely cutting up the cut off piece to maximize the amount of money that can be taken in from that as well. Either to prompt last minute backers or to shaft wait-and-see players.


And if that's not enough, straight from the horse's mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IehITxsK4Fs&t=1h57m28s

Interestingly the presentation on SQ42 gives no concrete details about the game itself at all nor is there any in-mission footage. Just Mass Effect style walk and talk around the ship.
I've heard that SQ42's upcoming release is anywhere from 20 to 50 to 71 missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 16, 2015, 09:02:14 pm
...from 20 to 50 to 71 missions.
Yes, because massive numbers of missions are always easy to execute and unfailingly make campaigns better. /s

(http://i.imgur.com/Sb3i05V.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 17, 2015, 12:32:12 pm
Yeah, he mentions that here @ 2m20s

https://youtu.be/OXpx2C6rFAc?t=2m20s (https://youtu.be/OXpx2C6rFAc?t=2m20s)

Says roughly 'Squadron 42 is going to be split into a trilogy, Episode 1 has the equivalent of 70 wing commander missions"

Though I honestly don't know what the hell he's saying in here.
He says there's 21 chapters, each a segment of missions, but he seems to consider each "mission" just having a check point. So it would have 21 missions with 3 segments? Who knows.

But they're also talking about ground missions ala Mass Effect which seems a bit odd because wasn't Star Marine on indefinate hiatus? And isn't the engine for that required for these ground missions?

The CitizenCon address also added something new though. It says there will be "sandboxy areas" with "optional side missions".

So, as I understand it at the moment. RSI is making four games. Star Citizen, and Squadron 42 Episodes 1 with two sequels planned,  each with 21 segmented missions, equivalent of "70 WC style missions" including space and ground combat plus sandboxy areas with optional side missions which may or may not factor in the 0 mission count.

All of them "next-gen AAA quality".
Good luck I say
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 10:22:42 am
Lol at "this year".  Yes, haven't managed to make their core gameplay fun, but they're ready to release a 70 mission campaign.  Suuuure.

Even if they do release this year it it's going to be a pile of **** if it's based on AC's combat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on November 18, 2015, 10:37:20 am
If they've somehow done 70 missions this year then they've either been lying about progress or are lying now, which goes against the whole transparency in development shtick they've been hiding behind
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2015, 11:01:03 am
Equivalent of 70 WC missions, how is that measured? Presumably the average WC mission X70? If I think average WC style mission, it involves a 3 point patrol killing enemies at each point.

How is this measured with Squadron 42? Do you have a 9 point patrol? Do they count the number of allies and enemies and measure by that, with Squadron 42 battles being about 3X bigger? That would probably be my guess, but I don't know. It might really feel like you have the content of 70 WC missions.

Or maybe they're sneaky and pick a mission like the 1st mission of WC3 to go on, where you do a 3 point patrol and kill a total of 4 enemy fighters. Wing Commander games are different from one another too. Wing Commander Prophecy has much larger battles than what came before it, which usually entailed the player and one wingman going on successively more difficult endurance runs against group after group after group of enemies.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 18, 2015, 11:10:52 am
Funny thing is, this forum better than probably any other, knows exactly what happens when you promise to deliver a 70 mission campaign. Either everything is very, very samey or it just never gets finished.

It's just simply not possible to come up with 70 good ideas for missions in such a short timespan. Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and been good did so over the course of years and needed a really good storyline to make it work.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 11:28:34 am
I don't have a source on hand but last I heard, the "70 mission campaign" had gotten split into 5 episodic releases, with only the first episode due to show up in 2016. That sounds a lot more achievable.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 11:39:26 am
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

So basically there's going to be 60 3 point patrol filler missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 18, 2015, 11:40:41 am
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be good
Is that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 11:51:18 am
Derelict had, what, 50?  Released BP in total has about 50 as well, but that includes cutscenes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on November 18, 2015, 11:55:59 am
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

So basically there's going to be 60 3 point patrol filler missions.

That was recorded/released in April'15, when they probably still believed they could release something this year.

Now it looks like maybe the first episode of SQ42 might be released sometime in 2016, and god knows how much of it has already been re-designed 4 times.
Also, watching CR trundling on about this, I get the impression he is counting a mission which goes something like "space combat -> fps combat -> space combat -> fps combat -> space combat -> landing" as 3 separate WC-style missions.

That might technically be correct, but it will most likely consists of patrol filler missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2015, 12:01:57 pm
If your gameplay is addictive, you can get away with having lots of nothing special missions. Because you just enjoy having a reason to play a game you love. As long as the missions aren't flat out bad, simple stuff like "go here, destroy these enemies" will work and be fun. But of course, going by the opinions of the people here on the gameplay they've experienced so far and those terrible cockpits, that doesn't seem likely.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 12:10:53 pm
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

Eh, that'll teach me to not watch videos (ain't nobody got time for 25 minute videos, gimme text for crying out loud! :))

Fortunately the bit where he talks about SQ42 is near the beginning (2:24 or so).

It also sounded like it's supposed to be about 20 hours, so I think the "equivalent of 70 WC missions" is probably not that useful of a comparison metric. WC missions weren't *that* short, except perhaps if you're ignoring all the travel time and talky bits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 12:16:38 pm
As far as gameplay goes, the moment-to-moment fighter combat didn't seem *terrible* to me, just unpolished and somewhat lacking tactical options (I don't think they had energy management yet, for example). Of course, that was a year ago, so who knows what may have changed.

Point is, I think I'd be able to at least enjoy a campaign using Nov 2014 Star Citizen ships & gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
I don't have a source on hand but last I heard, the "70 mission campaign" had gotten split into 5 episodic releases, with only the first episode due to show up in 2016. That sounds a lot more achievable.

Speaking of sources why didn't CR give more information at Citizencon? All he talked about was motion capture and said the campaign was "immense" and "epic" and 10 hours of Mo-cap.

And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Here are the details on SQ42 from the citizencon video:
https://youtu.be/IehITxsK4Fs?t=1h26m48s (https://youtu.be/IehITxsK4Fs?t=1h26m48s)
'true next gen AAA game'
'your continued support has pushed the game beyond its original scope'
'Approach has evolved from wing commander style to now include:
Intense tactical ground combat, in space and EVA in amazing immersive detail
Immense sandbox locations, environments to explore and missions that offer multiple paths to completion'


then goes on to say
'an epic story campaign set within SC
over 10 hours of mo-cap with an incredible cast
cutting edge facial animations to ensure believability and immersion
A dynamic conversation and reputation system
you aren't serving alongside bots, they're real people with character and backstroy
define your character through your actions and interactions'



So, how many missions? How long is the game? What's the price?
That description honestly sounds more like Mass Effect than Wing Commander and everything they showed in the demo was basically Mass Effect walking around the Normandy. But that said it's not really clear what the game is at all. It's just a bucket of buzz words like epic, immense, immersion, sandbox, dialogue, reputation, character, AAA, branching or multiple path to completion gameplay, etcetera
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Jeff Vader on November 18, 2015, 02:47:29 pm
(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4334740.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 18, 2015, 06:32:51 pm
Funny thing is, this forum better than probably any other, knows exactly what happens when you promise to deliver a 70 mission campaign. Either everything is very, very samey or it just never gets finished.

It's just simply not possible to come up with 70 good ideas for missions in such a short timespan. Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be good did so over the course of years and needed a really good storyline to make it work.
Yeah, that's basically what I was insinuating. You said it better, and without a semi-appropriate gif too!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 06:55:13 pm
I normally hate memes but these gifs you guys are throwing out are great
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on November 18, 2015, 07:52:18 pm
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Source on the Witcher 3 statistic? I kinda want to see how they justify that if true.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 08:04:41 pm
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Source on the Witcher 3 statistic? I kinda want to see how they justify that if true.

http://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-explains-why-the-witcher-3-has-16-hours-of-sex-scene-mo-cap-data/ (http://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-explains-why-the-witcher-3-has-16-hours-of-sex-scene-mo-cap-data/)

And . ..

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/28/sex-witcher-3-grand-theft-auto-of-fantasy-games (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/28/sex-witcher-3-grand-theft-auto-of-fantasy-games)

Actually my statement is a bit off. There's 16 hours of data drawn from, not sure how much of that is included in the actual game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 18, 2015, 08:26:13 pm
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and been good
Is that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.

I was thinking specifically of the combination of FS1 and FS2 which is pretty close to that number (around 60 missions+). It's a crude measure but looking at creation and last edit dates for a few missions gives a timespan of at least 6 months just to write all the FS2 missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 19, 2015, 08:44:53 am
Third year anniversary livestream is today at UTC 19:00

http://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen

There may be something about Alpha 2.0 and when is it about to release.

Open your hearts to Chris yet again. Also wallets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 19, 2015, 12:00:06 pm
I broke my wrists, I won't be able to open my wallet for at least two weeks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 19, 2015, 12:34:31 pm
between spending £40 on a load of swimming stuff and strongly considering buying SCII:LotV I have no money now for at least 2 weeks  :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 01:31:28 pm
Odd. The Livestream is called "Star Citizen playing Star Citizen" and when I go to the stream, it's a guy showing some concept art.
Where's the gameplay?

I guess it's actually anniversary livestream, but again, where's the gameplay?

They just should showed what is the ****tiest version of a ship I could imagine, described as a "white box" then told at the end "It's on sale, go buy it"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 01:57:08 pm
Gameplay isn't important.  Gotta sell that new jpeg.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 02:02:52 pm
Yeah I'm actually watching the screen, so far what I've sen is this:
1. Guy showing concept art
2. Guy showing a "white box" ship interior of sometihng called Crucible, think polygon planes for cieling and walls, pre-made doors placed here and there. Then Announcing it's on sale
3. Guy standing in a room talking about a system
4. Roberts talking about Squadron 42 by talking about Mark Hammel, showing a 10-second pre-rendered trailer of him getting in a plane. Talking about story, characters. Taking questons on Mark Hamill.

Still haven't seen or heard anything about game play

5. Showing behind the scenes with Mark and more mo-cap sets
6. Mark interview
7. 700 page script
8. So they showed a video about character pipeline, which talks about concept characters, mo-cap, animation but not gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 02:06:35 pm
They're super excited about doing exactly the same **** Mass Effect 1 did 8 years ago.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 02:38:41 pm
When asked about changing ship loadouts

"I think they're still working on the design document."

One of their most core gameplay features isn't finalized.  How the hell are they making a campaign?

What a bunch of muppets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on November 19, 2015, 02:51:37 pm
The pinnacle of this livestream so far has been Chris calling Starcitizen/SQ42 a "movie" and then them trying to cut the audio right after that because of it. So far nothing else has happened.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 03:06:09 pm
Yeah if I didn't know this was a game or the occasional references to the player, I would've thought they were making an animated movie honestly like FF spirits within

EDIT - HOLY **** THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE SHIPS! hahhaha
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 03:20:24 pm
And now talking about a HOTAS.

EDIT: oh my god another ship jpeg for sale.

EDIT2: Ok, time for 2.0 and gameplay talk!

Aaaaand they're showing literal Google Image Search jpegs, more concept art, and a bar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 19, 2015, 04:04:52 pm
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 04:08:40 pm
I was expecting a full 2.0 release, and it goes out to 1000 people today, with a planned public release next week.

EDIT: and then they went ahead and said the full release will be when they're comfortable with it.  So probably not next week.

EDIT2: yay gameplay!

Aaaand it's exactly the same thing we saw at Gamescom and CitCon.  They had 3 hours, and the gameplay was 2 minutes of prerendered video footage.  Why the hell didn't they show a mission (that they claim to have a dozen of) getting completed?  Why wasn't thins stream 3 hours of actual gameplay rather than jpegs and interviews?

Speaking that video, the animations are the worst mocap animations I've ever seen.  The headbobbing is still there and still looking terrible.  The FPS gameplay looked like generic shooter #1694233, complete with brown and grey everywhere.

That was the weirdest livestream I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 19, 2015, 04:17:16 pm
I like that they're doing it for the best bug reporters, it's a nice acknowledgment, reward, and incentive all at once.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 04:42:10 pm
How often do they promote things in-game, like for example environments, which cannot be immediately sold online?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 05:05:52 pm
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH

HOLY **** DUDE YOU ARE GETTING SCAMMED!!!

I missed the last half of the livestream and checked it out after it ended. Skipped around a bit and what are they talking about I see?

Selling a new ship
Having a contest to design marine armour, which will likewise get sold online
Selling a joystick/keyboard periphreal
Selling another ship

Where's the ****ing game? Seriously.
This livestream is a shopping channel.

Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Skip around the video.
Notice art development (concepts, models, sourcing)
Game development. (values, spreadsheets, planning)
LIVE gameplay demo at that stage (onspot demonstrations of mission, overworld), which was done every week as the game got better and improved.

That's how you livestream a game under development.

Not streaming for 3 hours talking about new **** going on sale without showing any new gameplay except for some crafted trailer showing all the "best moments".


Seriously dude, if you want to ride the project out whatever but don't put any more money into it that pit.

Total scam job. I will be surprised if you ever get a real, honest to god released game.

What's the current release? Alpha 2.0? You know what Alpha 2.0 is called in the rest of the gaming Industry? Beta. And after Beta, comes the release game. People are celebrating the fact that after 90 million dollars the best it can offer is "more alpha"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on November 20, 2015, 12:38:05 am
It's not even an Alpha. Alpha means that most major gameplay systems are implemented, and SC is far, far away from that particular milestone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 20, 2015, 12:59:31 am
It's a Virtual Ship Selling Simulator after all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 03:02:05 am
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH


(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

So we've reached last year's claimed combined Spring/Summer 2015 milestone.  Truly, this invalidates every problem with SC.

Meanwhile the module is crashing every 5 minutes, according to people playing it.  Seems fairly obvious they rushed it to remove critic ammo, but what they released is nearly unplayable.  Not joking about that.  I watched a stream where the 'game' crashed so much that the guy stopped trying and quit before he even managed to get into his ship's cockpit.

Which, now that I think about it, explains why CIG hasn't shown any actual gameplay of 2.0.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: TrashMan on November 20, 2015, 03:25:36 am
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Tim "3.4 million dollar man" Schafer
Tim "The Scam Man" Schafer
Tim "Scokpuppet" Schanfer

Of all the people...you use him as an example?

Quote
But Tim's most legendary failure has to be Broken Age.
After asking for 400k in KickStarter money and collecting a record sum of 3.35 million, with an additional 100k donated off KickStarter, Tim Schafer took that money and created.......... Nothing.

The project fell through almost completely. Despite receiving roughly 9 times the money he was asking for, Schafer inflated his plans for the game and, as a result, was unable to complete even half of one half of it, announcing that the game will be split into 2 chapters but he only has the money to complete half of the first. This might have something to do with him blowing a chunk of the budget on hiring voice actors that include some of the most well known (and most expensive) in the industry, the creator of Adventure Time, the returning Jack Black and ****ing Elijah Wood.

He went on to beg his fans for more money, tell them he would not be asking for money from a publisher because he doesn't like them and because that would be "against the spirit of KickStarter" (unlike outright stealing the money you were given and then begging for more), and finally put what little of the game was already finished on early access to gather more funds, telling the people who donated money and expected a full game: "Just don't look".

Over a year and a half later Schafer finally released the second part which made everyone wonder what took him so ****ing long, considering the plot (of both games) makes no sense and everything is solved with bombs and deus ex machina, while the puzzles feel like "Babies first adventure game". But what made it obvious that the entire thing was a con is that he didn't change anything. The entire game is made out of preexisting assets, no new characters or locations are added and the two heroes who live in separate worlds just change places and solve almost the exact same **** as the first half but with the locations reversed. Writing the story was literally the only thing Schafer had to do to complete part 2, and it still took him more than 18 months, cost him an extra 50k and ended up being **** that feels like it was written on the fly.

All of his is made even more hilarious by the fact Tim responded to the success of his fundraiser by posting numerous pictures of himself eating, trowing around, burning, blowing his nose and wiping his ass with the money.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on November 20, 2015, 03:50:54 am
Wow... I really wonder if I should finally try to get a refund. Probably too much effort for money I considered lost the moment I pledged it.

And the worst part is that no alpha module they actually released is playable on my computer cause it seems a lot more than the minimum hardware requirements is necessary to run it :/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on November 20, 2015, 07:43:58 am
Wow... I really wonder if I should finally try to get a refund. Probably too much effort for money I considered lost the moment I pledged it.

And the worst part is that no alpha module they actually released is playable on my computer cause it seems a lot more than the minimum hardware requirements is necessary to run it :/

Mh ... my work computer with a GTX960 with an old i5 runs it quite decently already.

Time to upgrade? ;-)

So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH


(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

So we've reached last year's claimed combined Spring/Summer 2015 milestone.  Truly, this invalidates every problem with SC.

Meanwhile the module is crashing every 5 minutes, according to people playing it.  Seems fairly obvious they rushed it to remove critic ammo, but what they released is nearly unplayable.  Not joking about that.  I watched a stream where the 'game' crashed so much that the guy stopped trying and quit before he even managed to get into his ship's cockpit.

Which, now that I think about it, explains why CIG hasn't shown any actual gameplay of 2.0.

Now don't take me wrong ... I'm quite sceptic about the project in it's entirety myself.

However, we are not getting "AC 2.0", but rather what they call the Persistent Universe Alpha or Baby PU nowadays.
How good or polished that is going to be is of course another story. But anyways, that nitpick on your post appears valid.

What is still Mia is Squadron 42. But when/if they release the Baby PU this year then that part would actually match the roadmap.

/shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 08:52:03 am
It's not a persistent universe though, is it?  There's nothing persistent about it.  There's nothing that makes the persistent universe different from a bigger map.  There's no economy, there's no jobs, there's no trading, no significant customization of anything, and there's no meaningful player interaction beyond what was in AC already.  It's a bigger map for Arena Commander, and they finally managed to wrestle CryEngine into a "workable" FPS.

The Baby PU, they claimed, was meant to basically be one system from what would be in the final persistent universe, with all the necessary gameplay systems in place.  None of them are in ATM.  Some of them (like ship customization) don't even have a finalized design document.

It's a combination of Star Marine and Multi-Crew.  What they said they'd have Summer 2015.  Apart from the bigger map, it isn't significantly different from what Arena Commander already was.  You could already land your ship, get out, and shoot a pistol at things.  Well, there's zero-G EVA now.  That part is new.  So's multi-crew, but I've yet to see a streamer play the "game" without it crashing before the Constellation could turn on, so...

Sure, they released 2.0, but it's nearly unplayable.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 20, 2015, 10:59:48 am
"Bigger map" is a big deal. Converting Cryengine into 64-bit coordinates took a lot of effort and is crucial for the game to work as advertised. In addition to that, there is a rudimentary missions system, FPS mechanics and quantum travel between different places in the system. What is released cannot be considered "Persistent universe Alpha" yet, but it does surely go beyond just "Arena Commander 2.0 multicrew ships" goal.

So right now we are located somewhere between their summer goal and end of 2015 goal. And indeed, that is also current calendar time. So technically they are not late yet when it comes to persistent universe development. In reality, they probably are, but not by much.

Squadron 42 is another matter, it is already late and I do not believe first episode it will be out anytime soon. The game systems are just too intertwined to be able to release Squadron 42 while persistent universe is still largely unfinished. Claiming that they could release it before PU was a mistake, IMHO.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 20, 2015, 11:29:29 am
So right now we are located somewhere between their summer goal and end of 2015 goal.
When in that timeline were they supposed to implement game mechanics? Because they still haven't even roughly pinned that down yet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 11:34:37 am
Game mechanics?  What?

How are game mechanics supposed to sell more jpegs?


Quote from the SA thread

Quote from: XK
I saw someone get in a turret and operate it. The ships seem to have problems with more than one person on them at a time. I saw a guy phase out of his ship when someone else flew away with it. Then it hung there over the pad, he jet packed up into the bay, and when he tried to enter a crew door the center of the screen pinched like it was doing the warp drive, then the ship ejected itself from around him and appeared over the opposite side of the pad.

Someone had a description of this release last night that completely nailed it. It's an object viewer. You can "fly" around, there's hints of neat things hidden about, the individual assets look good, but it's almost all "look but don't touch". You could have nearly the same experience zooming around in a model viewer.

Going by videos, seems accurate.  Every attempts to actually play ends with a crash in very short order.  Like, within a couple of minutes (which is of course nowhere near long enough to finish a fight with AC's glacial pace).


EDIT: So Reddit notices issues:

Quote
So, in my brief unstable time in the PTU, the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that the weird shaking you used to get from flying far out in Arena Commander is back now. It seems to be fine as long as you're near a point-of-interest, but if you go to cruise and travel off the beaten path just a bit, things go all to hell and you're disconnected shortly afterwards. Does anyone have an idea as to why this is? I thought the 64-bit conversion and camera-relative rendering was supposed to fix this. It does make me a little worried for exploration and such, since I can't even really fly around Port Olisar without getting this issue.
Current hypothesis is that they didn't change to 64-bit maps, they're just loading 32-bit maps at each point of interest.

Also apparently trying to repair or refuel a multicrew ship crashes the whole server.

EDIT2:
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/yw7LlY.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 20, 2015, 11:37:37 am
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Tim "3.4 million dollar man" Schafer
Tim "The Scam Man" Schafer
Tim "Scokpuppet" Schanfer

Of all the people...you use him as an example?

I use it as an example of a proper game development video. The best company I've kickstarted is Harebrained Schemes but they didn't have team streams like this.

Also your comment tells me that you don't really know what you're talking about because despite being a Double Fine production the game's director was Brad Muir. Tim Schafer was barely present, at least publicly. The game itself is also fairly successful, has a few mixed reviews but also full marks from reviewers like Tom Chick.

The one black mark I count against the production is that they went into early access before release and I voiced my disapproval openly when they did.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 20, 2015, 01:52:51 pm
Well, screw TIm Schaefer and Double Fine. Harebrained, Obsidian and other companies have actually made proper products and such.

And once again, screw Tim Schaefer. That guy rides politics more than he does actually making games - and while I may take a flail to bad examples, Tim Schaefer is a good example of all that's wrong and evil about Kickstarter.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 20, 2015, 02:12:58 pm
Sounds like someone kickstarter Double Fine Adventure.
I only KSed Massive Chalice so have less of a problem with DFP.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 21, 2015, 01:15:38 am
New patch is out, fixing many crashes and increasing player count to 15000. I got an invite too, but I dont have time to test it today. Will post my thoughts when I do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on November 21, 2015, 04:21:27 pm
Vaporware, ey? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC17567Zg8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 21, 2015, 04:56:59 pm
I don't think anyone called it vaporware.  No one here questions Croberts' intent to deliver the game, just his ability to.  I've watched a lot of footage of 2.0, and I'm no closer to believing he can do it.  The game is plagued by significant gameplay issues that have gone unaddressed since AC first released (and we've gone over them in this thread a lot, so I'm not going to go over them again), and there are still massive challenges, both technical and content-related, still ahead.

And the livestream confirmed that they still haven't pinned down their most essential gameplay systems (like ship customization).  The dev team itself is extremely talented, but the upper management people who aren't Erin are incompetent.

I mean, people are acting like 2.0 is proof that the naysayers are wrong, but hell, I expected 2.0 at CitCon.  CIG failed to meet even my expectations.  And it's still a year late.

Like I've said repeatedly, I expect CIG will successfully deliver SQ42.  Or at least the first part of it.  I doubt it'll be very good, but I think it'll get released.  Star Citizen as promised?  No. 

Look at E:D for an example of a well-run project.  It may not have SC's funding, but it clearly doesn't need it. Without having 95M USD, they've managed to deliver an actual game, and now they're adding content to it.  They have a far more competently run project and a far clearer (and more achievable) idea of the game they're making.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 23, 2015, 01:50:09 pm
New patch is out, fixing many crashes and increasing player count to 15000. I got an invite too, but I dont have time to test it today. Will post my thoughts when I do.

15,000 Invited
1,035,528 people still waiting
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 23, 2015, 01:53:14 pm
Eh, no rush. SC is the type of game I'd rather wait until it's a bit more polished and de-bugged to play.

Which I suspect may be quite a long while. Plenty of other stuff to play in the meantime, though!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 23, 2015, 02:10:51 pm
Yer SC is a game I will be waiting for the game to be in a coherent state before even thinking about picking up
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 03, 2015, 03:33:51 am
So far my experience with the "Baby PU" has been as follows:

First time trying to install it, the launcher crashes

Second time trying to install it, something happens, my USB ports get disabled, and I have to restart my PC.

Third time trying to install it worked, however launching the game caused an immediate CTD

Second time trying to launch the game worked, but I crashed in the loading screen when trying to enter the PU

Second time trying to load the PU, it crashed again

Said **** it, I'll go mess around with my ugly **** Aurora so I launch the hangar module, get in just fine

Get in my ship, this takes around 6 seconds. Open my bunk door, about two, get in my bunk takes around 10 seconds. Something bugs out so I can't get out of my bunk, so I escape out and press "Exit to desktop"

The game crashes when Exit to Desktop is pressed.


don't touch the baby poo
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 04, 2015, 06:39:27 am
So far my experience with the "Baby PU" has been as follows:

First time trying to install it, the launcher crashes

Second time trying to install it, something happens, my USB ports get disabled, and I have to restart my PC.

Third time trying to install it worked, however launching the game caused an immediate CTD

Second time trying to launch the game worked, but I crashed in the loading screen when trying to enter the PU

Second time trying to load the PU, it crashed again

Said **** it, I'll go mess around with my ugly **** Aurora so I launch the hangar module, get in just fine

Get in my ship, this takes around 6 seconds. Open my bunk door, about two, get in my bunk takes around 10 seconds. Something bugs out so I can't get out of my bunk, so I escape out and press "Exit to desktop"

The game crashes when Exit to Desktop is pressed.


don't touch the baby poo

There's two sides to the coin, or 2 groups of people actually ...

... one who will say that the game will never get made and everything is lost and if anything is released at all it will be a buggy unplayable mess.

... and the other who says that people just can't handle the ups and downs of open game development and SC will be the "bestest game released so far for PC gaming ever"-


/shrugs. We'll see who's right, eventually, I guess. Possibly the truth will lay somewhere inbetween. ;-)


Also, we'll see how the Baby PU does when it's officially released as uh Alpha, and not as PTU um,... is that pre Alpha then? lol.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 04, 2015, 09:53:16 am
That's great but it has nothing to do with my excellent rendition of the popular Shakespear play, titled Attempting to Star Citizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 06, 2015, 06:35:24 am
OK, it's been a rough road to here, but I think this video sums up just why we should all be so excited about Star Citizen:


When I watched this video, I didn't just see a game set to revolutionise the industry -- nay, the medium. I saw the pinnacle of our accomplishment as a species, a vision of humanity everlasting. I was left a child, staring into the embers of dying stars; and I am ready to hurl my wallet into the void of space with no fear
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 06, 2015, 06:58:52 am
I'll send you the bill for my overloaded sarcasm detector tomorrow.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 06, 2015, 08:11:07 am
1:18 - So the Earth Realm are hosting the Star Citizen timeline's Mortal Kombat. Man, the Shokan are really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this guy. They've really let things slide.

Some of those bugs are hilarious.

Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.

Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 06, 2015, 05:21:08 pm
Even though my last attempt at immersing myself in the fidelity and vision of Chris Roberts ended in me furiously masturbating to a Monopoly board out of frustrated failure, I figured I'd not given Star Citizen the fair 37 tries it deserved when the most recent patch hit.

First attempt at updating the game resulted in my USB ports being disabled again, which I'm assuming is righteous punishment for ever doubting the project. Second attempt went along fine, though I realized that Star Citizen basically redownloaded itself for the update instead of using a patch. I'm guessing it's some kind of new and improved way of doing it, because surely if small patches were the way to go they've have been doing them a year or two ago?

Got ingame, seriously hyped to have the time of my life. First attempt had me load for 5 minutes and then get shot back to the main menu with a message that said "Error - kicked from the server". This message would not go away when clicking the "ok" button, probably designed by the same people working on crosshairs. So I try loading into again, it works, however the damned message is still there. Before I can experience the immersion of head-bobbing, I notice that not only is the motion blur terrible, windowed mode simply does not work. The cursor will move out of the window leaving you unable to actually turn. I quit out, to make a config to disable motion blur. I get back in game, set it to fullscreen, and proceed to get error messages saying I've either been kicked from the server or have been disconnected for the next 6-odd attempts, none of the ok button presses on any of these messages actually makes them go away.

BDSSE

e:  Gotta go find my Monopoly board again

edit2:
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.
No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 07, 2015, 09:15:05 am
No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself

Yes... use your aggressive feelings boy, let the hate flow through you, good ...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 07, 2015, 02:05:26 pm
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.
  Very unlikely, because under US libel laws, they'd almost certainly lose.  CIG are as full of **** as Derek Smart.

Quote
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.
They always get a surge of money around October and November because of CitCon and the anniversary sale.  The reason it's such a huge difference is because June, July, August, and September were record lows.  They actually made less money this November than they did last November.  Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt), which would explain the recent downsizing in Austin and rush to get something out for the November sale.  If the November sale had been a bust, they'd have been in serious trouble.  As it is, October and November probably got them enough to last for another few months until the next jpeg sale.

I think they're very quickly starting to reach market saturation.  Hence the ponzi scheme referral program, unlimited sale of ships like the Idris (which was offered only in small batches before), and the fact that they didn't let people use store credit when they sold their "limited" Mary Sue ship (the Constellation Phoenix) again.  Hell, when SQ42 bundles were on sale (again, no store credit) they said only 5000 (I think) were available, but they kept refilling the number when it ran low.

/shrugs. We'll see who's right, eventually, I guess. Possibly the truth will lay somewhere inbetween. ;-)
Golden Mean Fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation)

And it is in alpha.  Even CIG call it an alpha.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on December 07, 2015, 02:13:19 pm
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 07, 2015, 05:43:22 pm
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.

:g: thanks for the image of someone launching a bunch of Star Citizen model space ships with a real life rocket. Actually, that would be as hilarious as it would be doable:P

Also: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/292247/rsi-constellation-takes-flight-in-microgravity LOL
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on December 08, 2015, 04:37:58 pm
Well, 60 million $ will buy you a full-sized Falcon from Space X. :) Be that one could at least loft a real-scale Aurora into LEO. Are the masses of the ships available somewhere?

Joking aside, I won't be surprised in the slightest if some Star Citizen merchandise finds its way aboard the ISS. I don't know if they'd be able to get it cleared for that, but a reasonably sized model with a nitrogen bottle inside an a number of cold gas thrusters could be stuck inside airlock and flown around a bit outside (it's about as complex a problem as making an RC aircraft). A ridiculous proposition, but not entirely implausible. Seems like exactly the kind of thing you do when you get too much money too quickly. :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 09, 2015, 12:05:12 pm
The idea that CIG could have bought a real, honest to God ****ing spaceship and had $30 million left over, but can't get their fake, virtual spaceships to work is hilarious.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on December 10, 2015, 03:08:55 am
Ugh. I just listened to that godawful Gary Oldman speech from that trailer. It reminded me of Indrick Boreale's speech from Dawn of War: Soulstorm (link for reference) (https://youtu.be/LJMLfACod48).

If a tree falls in a forest and it hits a mime, are all of the mime's blood vessels and internal organs properly simulated to create truly immersive injuries?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 02:19:07 am
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 07:11:32 am
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
That $2M is in salaries and rent.  It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium).  It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica.  It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors.  It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site).  It is their basic month-to-month expenses.

Game started development in Dec. 2011, btw.  Chris said they'd already been working for a year when he explained why a 2014 release date was feasible (lol).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 11, 2015, 10:54:29 am
Also, FYI, they have *raised* $100 million. That doesn't mean they have that amount right now. In fact, they almost certainly don't, since that sum was raised over a couple years, which means they were burning it at the same time they were bringing it in...which is why it would be interesting to see how much they actually have on hand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 12:54:03 pm
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
That $2M is in salaries and rent.  It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium).  It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica.  It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors.  It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site).  It is their basic month-to-month expenses.

Game started development in Dec. 2011, btw.  Chris said they'd already been working for a year when he explained why a 2014 release date was feasible (lol).

They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 12:56:06 pm
Also, FYI, they have *raised* $100 million. That doesn't mean they have that amount right now.

Of course, they certainly do not have $100 million because certain sum was spent already. We are trying to estimate how much.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 01:20:58 pm
They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.
I always enjoy it when citizens constantly move up the 'real' date that SC started development because the actual one doesn't match their internal narrative.  This time next year, development won't have 'really' started until Fall 2014.

I really don't see why you people are always so eager to change that date.  If development only really started in Fall 2013, then that means that CIG spent one whole year spending crowdfunded money on **** that doesn't matter, and you think this makes them look better?

And if you really think they're separating subscriber and pledge money, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.  CIG have shown on repeated occasions that they'll take any opportunity they see to milk their backers for more cash.  I'm not even convinced their pledge counter is trustworthy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 04:18:10 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 11, 2015, 09:11:41 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he

It's out actually ... ;)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 11, 2015, 09:15:40 pm
i bet you 500 space dollars that it's still a buggy heap of ****

cig have hit on a winning strategy here
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 09:38:00 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.
Because it doesn't matter.  I'm not trying to figure out how much money they have left because, even with current $2M routine operating costs, I don't know how much all their other crap cost.  I don't know how many 800$ tables they bought for their studios (except that it was at least 6), I don't know how much they paid their celebrities, and I don't know how much their new office and three mocap studios cost.  It's a fruitless exercise.

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
I thought they released 2.0 three weeks ago? 

But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

Shame his $100M can't make ships not fly like ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rhys on December 12, 2015, 01:14:03 am
There's enough salt in this thread to cool a fission reactor.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 01:57:09 am
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.

Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 12, 2015, 02:03:14 am
Even if the game never crashed it would still be unplayable because the core flight mechanics are just bad. Luckily, it crashes very often to save you from having to actually play it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 03:14:48 am
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.
That wasn't at CitCon.  They released nothing at CitCon.  They actually managed to disappoint even me.

And now they're rereleasing something they released three weeks ago and are getting praised for it.  Mkay.  Whatever.

Quote
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.
Assuming it ever gets finished.  So far, they're taking the Duke Nukem Forever approach to development.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on December 12, 2015, 04:14:33 am
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 12, 2015, 04:39:30 am
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.

Mh ... I'd say there is quite a lot of exaggeration on both sides of the argument (i.e. bestest game ever vs. totally unplayable) and your post is a quite good example.

Turn your HOTAS in a mouse? LOL ;) Lay of the vitriol for a while please :P


My take? So yes it may be buggy and the flight model needs work, but on the other hand I did have seriously awesome expieriences in it already, even back in AC, pushing the flight model to see what you can actually do, maneuvering around those large structures weaving in and out of the nooks and crannys and circling those large spines with my ships nose pointed directly towards it - you couldn't do any of that with the traditional "planes in space" flight model of old SpaceSims. Also Vanduul Swarm, while silly at times, was fracking intense at other times.

So... less exaggeration please. It's reached a point where it's just become silly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on December 12, 2015, 07:56:46 am
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

I'm not even sure at this point if half the stuff he promised is possible even with 10x their current budget. He has actually managed to out-molyneux Peter freaking Molyneux!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 08:18:07 am
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.

I cannot comment on joystick sensitivity curve issues because I play with mouse, tough.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 09:41:17 am
Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole.

That's the matter of opinion. I absolutely loved newtonian flight model from second I-War, and I couldn't stand more than 10 minutes of flight in AC 1.3. I didn't play SC in 2.0, so I can't comment what changed, and I can agree that E:D's flight model is average at best in the main game,  but really enjoyable in CQC.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 09:45:02 am
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/youre_serious_futurama.gif)


No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:

(http://i.giphy.com/tUilVT3gQDqyk.gif)

They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.  How they manage to make animations this bad despite building 3 mocap studios and hiring two others in incomprehensible.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

Quote from: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-13-star-citizen-well-compete-with-any-aaa-game-out-there
"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 10:24:42 am
No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:

(http://i.giphy.com/tUilVT3gQDqyk.gif)

They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is just a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

Quote from: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-13-star-citizen-well-compete-with-any-aaa-game-out-there
"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.

However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15031-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20

G-forces and G-LOC dont affect people in ships because physical impulses across different physics grids (global to local etc.) are not yet implemented. The same reason why weapon impacts do not affect physics inside ships yet. This will be corrected in the future.

Regarding your quote from 2012, lol indeed. If there is one totally valid criticism of SC, it is that it will be considerably delayed from original plan. This is due to a combination of expanding the scope of the game and overly optimistic original schedule. But, I dont give a damn if the game takes 2 years or 6 years to develop, as long as the end result is good. And I believe SC will be a great game indeed, despite not everything being ideal..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 10:32:23 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

Quote
However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.
Small fighters IRL weigh 20 tonnes.  Ships in SC feel like they don't even weigh 1.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 11:34:46 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.

Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 11:47:16 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.  It happens all the time with ships of all types on the landing pads.  But I do think it's amusing that you think typical ship behavior is a physics bug.  Speaks very highly of the game, doesn't it?


Quote
Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed.  They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models.  To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.

Er, ships in Elite 'fly like spaceships should'.  It's not a perfectly Newtonian flight model, but neither is SC.  Actually, it feels a lot more like a well-represented physical environment than SC does because inertia is actually a thing you need to deal with, unlike SC.  Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D  is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is.  You haven't played it, have you?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 12, 2015, 12:14:54 pm
The difference is that Diaspora didn't tie spaceship behaviour to the physics engine and had a much easier time tweaking the mechanics to make it more fun. The fighters also had a real feeling of weight to them, something the FSO engine does very well.

SC on the other hand feels like Descent but without the small indoor levels that actually made Descent exciting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 12:26:19 pm
Quote
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.

Perhaps. My point is, its a collision bug, not a flight model feature.

Quote
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed.  They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models.  To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.

Nope, they just need to tweak the ship mass / thruster power parameters. That is literally all there is to it. You can achieve any desired physically possible behaviour just by tweaking those numbers, as long as you have enough thrusters on all sides for 6DOF flight (which all ships have). Well, that and the max speed of course, which is another free parameter.

Inertia too low? Increase mass / decrease thruster power until it feels as desired. Inertia too high? Do the opposite.

Quote
Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D  is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is.  You haven't played it, have you?

Yes I have. And E:D model isnt fundamentally bad, they just need to get rid of the awful yaw limit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 01:02:09 pm
Quote
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.

Perhaps. My point is, its a collision bug, not a flight model feature.
It is not a collision bug.  It's a collision.  That's it.  This is just how SC ships interact when they collide (because they have no mass).  There's a dozen videos on Youtube that can attest to that fact.  It moves around because the Glaive pilot is maneuvering, but there's no bug there.  There's only two ships that have no real mass, one of which is making thruster inputs.  Hell, apparently someone submitted a support ticket and got told it was all working as intended, according to the Reddit comment thread.

Quote
Nope, they just need to tweak the ship mass / thruster power parameters. That is literally all there is to it. You can achieve any desired physically possible behaviour just by tweaking those numbers, as long as you have enough thrusters on all sides for 6DOF flight (which all ships have). Well, that and the max speed of course, which is another free parameter.

Inertia too low? Increase mass / decrease thruster power until it feels as desired. Inertia too high? Do the opposite.
Not that easy.  See, you can't change turn rates without changing acceleration in every direction.  You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both.  And that why ships feel so weightless: because they want fast, responsive turn speeds. 

To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.


Dogfight-related: whoever designed the cockpit warning sounds is a goddamn moron.  Constantly hearing "CONTACT, SCANNING, CONTACT, FLARE DEPLOYED, FLARE READY, CONTACT, SHIELD CHARGING, CONTACT, SHIELDS UP, FLARE DEPLOYED, FLARE READY, CONTACT, SCANNING" is just ****ing annoying.  Did no one listen to cockpit sounds from real aircraft before designing this crap?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 01:51:44 pm
It's kinda funny, because I'm an original backer. I've got the Squadron 42 shirt and the bronze Citizen card they gave out ages ago. Arena Commander at the very start was AWESOME, if frustrating. Lag was so bad that I was at an extreme disadvantage. Fast forward a few years later and the game has progressed to the point where my system is unable to play Arena Commander without dropping to 10FPS and the sound stuttering and skipping to match the frame rate. I'm hugely disappointed, but want to hold on for some kind of hope that this turns out even remotely as advertised.

Still, I'm thinking about selling some of my pledged ships. I remember you could do that, but I'm unsure if that's still possible.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 02:02:01 pm
I think all those sales made buying second-hand ships (or promises of ships) a less attractive option, but don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 02:03:59 pm
Quote
You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both.

Why the hell would you want to do such a thing?

You have either light ships that move fast and turn fast (fighters), or heavy ships that move slowly and turn slowly (capital ships). And of course the spectrum in between.. But there is no reason to have a ship that both turns fast AND has poor lateral movement. It would just look weird.

Small ships in SC, like Glaive, behave well. The problem is that bigger ships (like Constellation) have too little mass/inertia compared to the small ones, and so move and turn too quickly, not only when reacting to their own thrusters (which can always be adjusted in power), but also to external impulses. But this was apparently fixed in one of the latest patches, at least when it comes to the Constellation, which now has increased mass. I will test it after 2.0 download is finished.

Increasing the mass of the Constellation compared to the Glaive is literally all it takes to fix the situation in your gif (assuming its not a bug). Then you can perhaps increase the Constellation thruster output to compensate, but I would not want that much, such a big ship should feel more sluggish.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 02:05:11 pm
I think all those sales made buying second-hand ships (or promises of ships) a less attractive option, but don't quote me on that.

My ships come with the lifetime insurance. :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 02:11:00 pm
Isn't LTI common now thanks to CIG still selling ships with the insurance? I didn't really follow that facet of development, but at least some people seem to agree: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3tlvcc/ccu_has_killed_lti_just_give_prebeta_ships_lti/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 03:13:16 pm
Why the hell would you want to do such a thing?
So ship turning is fast and responsive like you want for a fast-paced fighter sim, but other ship movements actually have some inertia.  So you don't need to have a null-mass fighter with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as powerful as the main thruster just so it won't turn like a cow. 

Moot point because their system can't do it.


Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 03:55:47 pm

Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.

I don't even know how any of this **** works. :blah:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 11:06:17 pm

Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.

I don't even know how any of this **** works. :blah:

Make a Reddit account, read through this (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/25tqik/kanes_middleman_services_terms_and_conditions/), message the guy about the ship or ships you want to sell, and follow his instructions.  You'll need a verified paypal account.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 12, 2015, 11:55:18 pm
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 13, 2015, 03:46:08 am
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive

:facepalm:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2015, 09:50:29 am
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/refund.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 13, 2015, 10:07:12 am
at this early stage of development i don't think we can really draw any conclusions about the quality of duke nukem forever as a finished product
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 13, 2015, 12:19:35 pm
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive

Not that daunting, but more like I don't even know how to use Reddit right now. :P I'm not even going to try to get a refund, since I already know I probably won't get it back. I'm keeping my main pledges though, in case something DOES happen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2015, 02:33:43 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/o4AD57T.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 13, 2015, 03:46:47 pm
While it's funny to see Cultizens talk about how ridiculously super realistic innovative and whatever SC is going to be you can't really compare India's space program to videogames.
I mean, SW:TOR cost $200M and it wasn't doing anything that different aside from polish(and full VA). GTA V was pretty much a standard GTA game with MORE stuff and it cost $137M to develop and a ****-ton more to market.

Videogames more expensive than most real-life groundbreaking sscience is nothing new.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 13, 2015, 06:21:15 pm
If you want to compare Star Citizen to a video game, why not compare it to something that's cheaper?

Witcher 3 was 81 million
Skyrim was likewise 80 million

And these games are done.

Comparing it to TOR or GTA5 is actually misleading in my opinion because those games are renown as some of the most expensive games of the modern age, and they are not representative of the norm.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 01:56:47 am
If you want to compare Star Citizen to a video game, why not compare it to something that's cheaper?

Witcher 3 was 81 million
Skyrim was likewise 80 million

And these games are done.

Comparing it to TOR or GTA5 is actually misleading in my opinion because those games are renown as some of the most expensive games of the modern age, and they are not representative of the norm.

Star Citizen scope and ambition is also not representative of the norm, so comparison to such average games would be misleading.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 14, 2015, 01:59:30 am
Yeah, the Witcher 3 stayed focused on what it wanted to do and released on time as a good game. SC on the other hand is much more 'ambitious' like Duke Nukem Forever.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 03:03:12 am
Squadron 42 isn't that ambitious.  And yet it's been constantly delayed just like everything else. 

In 4 years and $100M, CIG have released nothing but an elaborate tech demo (even if Sandi thinks they've already delivered a $30 game). 

In the same amount of time and with half the money (because actual development cost was ~$40M, rest was marketing), CDPR delivered what's probably the finest RPG ever made.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 14, 2015, 03:53:29 am
The Witcher 3 was 46M$ to develop and 35M$ to market. Though to be completely fair it would've been more expensive had it been made in the US but the difference wouldn't be that huge.

And TW3 is a huge and very polished game, very far from what you'd normally call 'non-ambitious' . It broke most conventional RPG Tropes in both story and gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 04:40:33 am
Squadron 42 isn't that ambitious.  And yet it's been constantly delayed just like everything else. 

In 4 years and $100M, CIG have released nothing but an elaborate tech demo (even if Sandi thinks they've already delivered a $30 game). 

In the same amount of time and with half the money (because actual development cost was ~$40M, rest was marketing), CDPR delivered what's probably the finest RPG ever made.

S42 is not the whole game, just part of it. Do you have a source for the marketing/actual development fraction of the cost? You dont know when the development began, since its not open to the public.

You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?

The only mistake CIG made was initially publishing the overly optimistic release schedule. By now they realized their mistake and switched to "when its done" model, refusing to state longterm dates, which is a good thing. This is how it should have been from the start (Minecraft/DayZ development model). If you really cant accept such change, feel free to request a refund (you can always buy the game after it comes out and is good). There are many more people like me who dont mind more waiting, even several years of waiting, if it is necessary and means a better game in the end. And its not like we get nothing in the meantime, Alpha versions are available for playing, and the open AAA game development process is an unprecedented and interesting show of its own, probably alone worth the $45.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 05:00:10 am
No, their mistake was pretty clearly to keep increasing the scope as more money rolled in, even after the end of the kickstarter campaign. Oh, and also promising this game to be everything to everyone (You want the best space sim? Buy SC! Want a really good FPS? Buy SC! Want an MMO? Buy SC! Singleplayer? We got you covered! Want to be a trader, combat pilot, pirate, explorer? Buy Elite Dangerous SC! Cinematics? We sure have those! Celebrity VAs? Got those as well! Planetary landings and evironments in the initial release? You bet your ass we're gonna have them! New ships without adequately defined gameplay attached? Got you covered!).

Meanwhile, Frontier delivered a base game only about half a year after the initially planned release date, got a player base, and kept increasing the scope of the game incrementally. Had CIG concentrated on delivering either a persistant universe or Squadron 42, with plans to expand the scope post-launch, then we'd probably not be having these discussions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 05:17:09 am
S42 is not the whole game, just part of it. Do you have a source for the marketing/actual development fraction of the cost? You dont know when the development began, since its not open to the public.
They talk about it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyMiT4OUy4).  And I seriously doubt development of TW3 started before TW2 was released, so that means late 2011.

SQ42 is a standalone game, it isn't terribly ambitious, and doesn't require them to overcome the biggest technological hurdle they'll need to overcome for the PU (that being the netcode).  Its scope hasn't increased like the PU has, so feature creep isn't an excuse.  CR claimed it would be done last year.  So where is it?

Quote
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.


Quote
The only mistake CIG made was initially publishing the overly optimistic release schedule. By now they realized their mistake and switched to "when its done" model, refusing to state longterm dates, which is a good thing. This is how it should have been from the start (Minecraft/DayZ development model). If you really cant accept such change, feel free to request a refund (you can always buy the game after it comes out and is good). There are many more people like me who dont mind more waiting, even several years of waiting, if it is necessary and means a better game in the end. And its not like we get nothing in the meantime, Alpha versions are available for playing, and the open AAA game development process is an unprecedented and interesting show of its own, probably alone worth the $45.
Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development.  Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?

No, I'm sorry, I'm never going to think that CIG being so incapable of sticking to deadlines that they stop setting them is a good thing.  It isn't.  Constantly missing deadlines like they do is representative of incompetent management, and that doesn't suddenly go away because they've stopped giving out release dates.


EDIT: more weightless ship movement:
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/v9EZZN.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 06:27:58 am
Quote
SQ42 is a standalone game, it isn't terribly ambitious, and doesn't require them to overcome the biggest technological hurdle they'll need to overcome for the PU (that being the netcode).  Its scope hasn't increased like the PU has, so feature creep isn't an excuse.  CR claimed it would be done last year.  So where is it?

Scope of SQ42 was also increased in the funding goals. And no, its not a standalone game, its deeply intewined with PU, for example using the same game engine and assets. It pretty obvious that delays in the common parts could affect both of them.

Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Quote
What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.

Alpha 2.0, for example. The whole open game development thing, where we can see what they are working on at the moment and see the progress.

Quote
Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development.  Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?

Nope, Duke Nukem was developed in secret, there were no continual updates and alpha versions released. I mean Minecraft approach to game development, which indeed worked very well, considering its now the best selling game of all time. You can say that Star Citizen is now around Minecraft Infdev stage. You could definitely call Infdev a glorified tech demo, and look at it a few years later.

Quote
EDIT: more weightless ship movement:

Low weight, or too powerful thrusters? Would look the same.

Easy fix anyway - just increase ship mass. You are nitpicking.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 14, 2015, 06:35:33 am
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.

This. So many, many times this.

It took CD Projekt 3 goes to make a game as ambitious as Witcher 3. They started out relatively small and only went to open world after they had already proved that they had something worth being as ambitious with. And this is despite them having a major ace in the hole because they started out with a highly detailed fantasy world thanks to the fact that they had books to base their entire series on.

SC on the other hand started out with nothing. They had no established plot or universe which means that they need to come up with all that stuff themselves. All they had was a big name game designer who hasn't worked in game design for over a decade. Why on Earth did they imagine that they could put together something as ground breaking as Star Citizen with almost no relevant experience in the genre?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 06:53:44 am
Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Another 3 or 4 years, hmm? When most estimates have CIG somewhere between 2 or 3 months from running out of money? Tell me, how many more jpegs do you expect CIG to sell?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 07:16:21 am
And no, its not a standalone game
Sandi disagrees. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXGsz0ZoduY&feature=youtu.be&t=455)  But I'm sure you know better than she does, right? 

Quote
Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.
  At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships.  But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.

Quote
How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?
No, I just listened to what they said during the anniversary livestream. (https://youtu.be/s7u7cgRY-fc?t=5095)

Do you keep up with this game's development at all, or is "oooh, shiny" the extent of your research?


Calling it now, you'll think this is a great answer and won't understand how it's obvious that they haven't pinned very much down about it.

Quote
Alpha 2.0, for example. The whole open game development thing, where we can see what they are working on at the moment and see the progress.
You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence.  And their development is far from open.  Refer back to what I said about their silence regarding the specifics of important gameplay mechanics. 

Hell, the community can't even decide what CIG intends to do about PvP and piracy.  There were a dozen threads about it on the SC forums, and no one knows.  About how they're going to handle PvP.  In a ****ing MMO!

Quote
Nope, Duke Nukem was developed in secret, there were no continual updates and alpha versions released.
This is utterly irrelevant.  What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough".  They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were incapable of meeting a release date.  CIG is already doing this.  Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

Quote
Low weight, or too powerful thrusters? Would look the same.

Easy fix anyway - just increase ship mass. You are nitpicking.
And you're not listening to a word I'm saying:
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.



Okay, serious question: are you trolling, or are you so deluded that you're selectively blocking out things that conflict with your internal narrative?

Actually, don't answer that.  You're doing the exact same thing you did during the IS thread in GenDisc: If reality and your internal narrative conflict, reality is wrong.  It's why we keep on having to repeat the same arguments over and over again: the idea that you might be wrong is completely incomprehensible.  You literally don't see how an argument has defeated yours.  You just double down.

Example: I already explained why "just increase the mass" doesn't work.  You ignore my explanation, then a few posts later, you repeat your initial argument as though it hasn't already been refuted.

You're a cultist.  Plain and simple.  Faith trumps reality.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 07:16:34 am
Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Another 3 or 4 years, hmm? When most estimates have CIG somewhere between 2 or 3 months from running out of money? Tell me, how many more jpegs do you expect CIG to sell?

Oh, so now you are not only a designer, but also a financial specialist at CIG.. You really know everything about their internal operations, dont you?

Such guesstimates are nothing but wild speculations based on wild speculations. We know pretty much nothing about their expenses and remaining reserves. Or how much more untapped backer potential there is, unlocked when improved versions of the game are released in the future (yes, there is a game, not just jpegs, you seem to have missed that).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 07:20:09 am
Or how much more untapped backer potential there is, unlocked when improved versions of the game are released in the future (yes, there is a game, not just jpegs, you seem to have missed that).
  They're seriously worried about attracting more backers, hence the ponzi scheme referral system and "limited" cash-only packages during the sale.  Seems pretty obvious they're reaching market saturation.  Milking the whales not good enough anymore, I guess.

And no, it's not a game, it's a tech demo.  Apart from the graphics, 2.0 is the sort of thing you'd show to a publisher as a proof of concept.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 08:02:29 am
Quote
Sandi disagrees.  But I'm sure you know better than she does, right? 

Nowhere is she saying that the games dont share engine and assets. Thats all it takes to make my point right.

Quote
At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships.  But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.

Considering that advances in game graphics pretty much slowed down to a crawl in the last few years (you can blame consoles for a lot when it comes to that), this is the last thing I am afraid of. Original Crysis still looks very good, and that was released in 2007. Metro 2033 still looks better than most games on the market, that was 5 years ago.

Quote
Do you keep up with this game's development at all, or is "oooh, shiny" the extent of your research?


Calling it now, you'll think this is a great answer and won't understand why it's so vague.

Perhaps they dont have yet determined that the extent of loadout customization that should be allowed in SQ42? I mean, I think deciding about such a thing would come later, when they can actually test in game how much customization can player be allowed to do, to not break the intended mission flow and balance.

Quote
You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence.

Before that, it was Arena Commander. Now its Alpha 2.0. My point is, early versions are being released, there is obvious progress happening with the game. Thats why I have confidence.

Quote
This is utterly irrelevant.  What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough".  They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were utterly incapable of meeting a release date.  CIG is already doing this.  Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?

CIG has already stopped doing this long ago. The scope of the game was fixed when $65 million was reached (the last stretch goal). Asset polish here and there is not bloat, iterative development is not bloat.

Quote
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.

See:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1807235#msg1807235

Small agile ships like fighters should feel like that, there is nothing wrong with them. Bigger ships should feel heavier (both turning and moving), their mass should be increased, but you dont need to change flight model for that. Cutlass should have its mass increased a bit IMHO, but its really not that bad. Its a nitpick at this point, obviously tweaking such individual ship parameters would come after the engine is stable, so they can be tested against each other in many scenarios.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 14, 2015, 08:47:10 am
Quote from: 666maslo666
<Blind faith>
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/1294212062741_zpsyrsymcgv.gif~original)

I don't know why you even try, Aesaar. It seems like your efforts would be better spend talking to a wall. You'd probably get a more intelligent response from a wall at least.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 08:52:52 am
Nowhere is she saying that the games dont share engine and assets. Thats all it takes to make my point right.
What?  You said that the reason SQ42 isn't done is that it isn't a standalone game, when it is.  Hell, CR already said SQ42 won't even have the final version of their flight model.  Your excuses are getting increasingly flimsy.

And I sure hope the two games won't share an engine.  That would be very dumb.  A singleplayer sim doesn't need a lot of the **** an MMO sandbox does.  There's absolutely no reason they need to wait for the PU version of the engine.  And if assets are the bottleneck, then that reinforces my point: SQ42 is delayed because of mismanagement.  They should have concentrated on getting SQ42 done. 

I'm pretty damn sure that an SQ42 release would have been far better received than any of the modules they've released so far.  If that had happened, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quote
Considering that advances in game graphics pretty much slowed down to a crawl in the last few years (you can blame consoles for a lot when it comes to that), this is the last thing I am afraid of. Original Crysis still looks very good, and that was released in 2007. Metro 2033 still looks better than most games on the market, that was 5 years ago.
This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.

Quote
Perhaps they dont have yet determined that the extent of loadout customization that should be allowed in SQ42? I mean, I think deciding about such a thing would come later, when they can actually test in game how much customization can player be allowed to do, to not break the intended mission flow and balance.
If they'd pinned something substantial down, they could have done more than repeating the same vague stuff they first talked about 3 years ago.  And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after.  You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of. 

This is something this community knows a lot about.  Actually, I'd say we know more about it than CR does.  Over the last 15 years, while he's been making crappy movies, HLP's been designing space sim missions.

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Before that, it was Arena Commander. Now its Alpha 2.0. My point is, early versions are being released, there is obvious progress happening with the game. Thats why I have confidence.

So your confidence comes from them making nothing but tech demos in the same amount of time a competent studio takes to make a full game.  Okay then.

I could understand this attitude if CIG had released SQ42, not just glorified tech demos.  4 years in, and they've released less than they promised they would have by now.  They're released substantially less than a competent studio does in the same timeframe.  And this makes you feel confident about their ability to deliver a game this ambitious.  How?  I mean, how?


Quote
CIG has already stopped doing this long ago. The scope of the game was fixed when $65 million was reached (the last stretch goal). Asset polish here and there is not bloat, iterative development is not bloat.

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

https://i.imgur.com/sAHYFkm.png

Yeah, they stopped doing this a long time ago.  Definitely.


Quote
See:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1807235#msg1807235

Small agile ships like fighters should feel like that, there is nothing wrong with them. Bigger ships should feel heavier (both turning and moving), their mass should be increased, but you dont need to change flight model for that. Cutlass should have its mass increased a bit IMHO, but its really not that bad. Its a nitpick at this point, obviously tweaking such individual ship parameters would come after the engine is stable, so they can be tested against each other in many scenarios.

Which is a crock of ****.  Single-seat fighters shouldn't feel like they have weight?  What kind of retard logic is that?  Complete nonsense.  I thought the point of this game was to feel like you're flying a ship, not that you are the ship, and ships handling like it's Hawken in space runs completely counter to that.  Every single space sim I've ever played manages to have weightier fighters than SC does.  That I think this is bad isn't because I don't like 6DOF gameplay, it's because it's a perfect case for why making a "realistic" space sim is dumb.  SC's attempts at realism make it feel less realistic because realism is rarely conducive to good gameplay (especially in space), so they need to make glaringly obvious compromises (like weightless ships).  Weightless ships are and feel much less realistic than not perfectly simulating your maneuvering thrusters, and it plays worse too.


I don't know why you even try, Aesaar. It seems like your efforts would be better spend talking to a wall. You'd probably get a more intelligent response from a wall at least.
I don't know anymore.  Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons.  I'm stubborn.

Probably won't bother much longer.  His arguments are increasingly circular.  Arguing with someone too deluded to understand he's been comprehensively defeated gets boring.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on December 14, 2015, 10:45:25 am
I don't know anymore.  Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons.  I'm stubborn.

You can't deny that Star Citizen is innovative in one respect - it's created the single worst game community without actually having a game. Half of them want it to fail and the other half think it's already succeeded. Maybe there's a little bit in the middle that just want to see how things go, but obviously they're no fun.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 14, 2015, 11:26:33 am
Nothing about this project inspires me with confidence (except for the soundtrack, which seems decent). CR's track record speaks for itself. I'm also allergic to cults.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 14, 2015, 11:33:33 am
(http://i.imgur.com/o4AD57T.jpg)
Dear god.   :wtf:

While it's funny to see Cultizens talk about how ridiculously super realistic innovative and whatever SC is going to be you can't really compare India's space program to videogames.
I mean, SW:TOR cost $200M and it wasn't doing anything that different aside from polish(and full VA). GTA V was pretty much a standard GTA game with MORE stuff and it cost $137M to develop and a ****-ton more to market.

Videogames more expensive than most real-life groundbreaking sscience is nothing new.

It's become a hollywood-size industry, for good or ill.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 14, 2015, 11:52:42 am
In regards to the 'haven't been done before' moniker, how unique are current capabilities of SC 2.0? I remember only two games sharing the ability to walk onboard a moving craft and interact with outside environment, namely BF2142 with its Titans (whose movements generated a lot of lag, apparently) and Space Engineers (though I'm not so sure of that, I didn't build anything larger than a fighter during free weekend on Steam). Did I miss anything painfully obvious?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 14, 2015, 12:00:11 pm
Boy I'm glad I didn't care for the art direction of this thing in the early days and gave it a pass. :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 01:17:01 pm
You guys should check out Angels Fall First...it's based on UDK, has space combat, ship boarding, ground combat, individual player controlled turrets, and more. It's on Steam Greenlight right now for less than $20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8BwwplbaM8

Full disclosure: I did some modeling work with them at one point.

But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 01:36:35 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.

Witcher 3 just won game of the year by the way.  I don't think the word "average" applies to it in any regard.  Nor to Skyrim for that matter.

"Standalone" isn't a term that has anything to do with assets. It's about "does this game require an existing game to run?".  Far Cry Blood Dragon is standalone.  You didn't need Far Cry 3 to run it. Porky's Prefect 10 is standalone, didn't need Enslaved to run it.  On a modding site I would think people would know the meaning of "standalone" given that some of the mods hosted on here specifically advertise themselves as such.

And further I'm not sure that the scope of the game is all that exceptional.  I mean you got a game with a single player campaign, and multiplayer where you can run around and shoot guys, jump in a vehicle, shoot up more guys then land your vehicle hop out and repair it before getting in it again, and that game is called Battlefield 4.  Right.   That describes pretty much most of Star Citizen already.  Now you're going to be able to do trading and there'll be different stations or planets to land on and maybe there's some mining and whatnot but beyond flying a spaceship and shooting guys on foot what can a person do?

Think about the sorts of things that other games have to offer? In Space engineers you can mine, build, design and repair spaceships. In Ultima Online players partook in a variety of roles, built structures and consequently whole towns or civilizations, etcetera.  Some people apparently just worked as blacksmiths, building weapons for other people, etcetera. A whole sort of player-driven economy.  In a game like EVE Online, there are large guilds or groups or whatnot with thousands of players with alliances and economies, etcetera.

What of things can you do in Star Citizen? Can a group of players create their own station and start building weapons to outfit other player's ships? Can you design your own ships? Set yourself up as a repair jockey or station trader or a manufacturing hub? Can you play the game outside of the "driving a starship" role?

Star Citizen sounds like a game with a fair amount of components, lots of assets and a lot of game systems to enable the PU but not a lot of scope. What the player can do in the game is fairly narrow.
Now some other things could be added on later as the game progresses, but then again that's true of every component that is already delaying the game.  Personally I'm not sure why it even has an FPS component.  Boarding actions and "realistic starship combat" are two incompatible ideas.  Unless you have Star Trek transporters (like Pulsar Lost Colony), the only boarding you're likely to be doing are against space stations or perhaps assaulting a ground base that you want to capture intact.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 01:52:03 pm
Quote
And I sure hope the two games won't share an engine.  That would be very dumb.  A singleplayer sim doesn't need a lot of the **** an MMO sandbox does.  There's absolutely no reason they need to wait for the PU version of the engine.

Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.

Quote
This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.

Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

Quote
And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after.  You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of.

You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.

Quote
Every single space sim I've ever played manages to have weightier fighters than SC does.

You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.

Quote
So your confidence comes from them making nothing but tech demos in the same amount of time a competent studio takes to make a full game.  Okay then.

A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.

I already had a lot of fun flying in AC and Alpha 2.0, almost on par with Elite Dangerous. Now I see no reason to argue about the definition of "game" vs. "tech demo", it does not change the substance at all. By your logic you could call Minecraft Infdev a tech demo and not a game, yet obviously a lot of people enjoyed playing it, just as they do enjoy playing AC/Alpha 2.0 when it does not crash.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 02:15:01 pm
maslow, how much have you spent on SC so far?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 02:18:18 pm
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

That theory would make more sense in a project with fixed release dates. When the release dates keep getting pushed back and ships keep getting re-designed it doesn't look planned. 
When do the designs get locked down? When are they finalized? Instead of making a third version of the Freelancer, they could have added two additional ships to the game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 02:29:53 pm
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.

Look at it another way: Since a lot of the tech needed for the PU is also needed for SC proper, developing all that tech and bugfixing it for S42 would not be a waste of time. Given proper development practices (which CIG really does not seem to get), developing S42 and then building on that work to make the PU happen would have been the correct move, or rather a move that would have a set of concrete deliverables attached, with a basic development framework that is well understood by all involved. Developing every piece of SC in parallel, as they are doing now, is pretty stupid, because it leads to this bull**** we're seeing now.

Quote
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

Then they're really ****ing stupid. Iterative design has its place. Redoing every single asset multiple times, with no clear artist ownership of them? That's really bad management practice. They redid every single asset once already, for PBR. Now they're redoing them again. Why? Is it because they realized that they never managed to set proper budgets for their art assets? Is it because they finally decided that they need a proper art pipeline? It doesn't really matter. What matters is that they're ****ty managers.

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You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.

The flight model shouldn't be evolving at this point! Do you not get that? 3 years into development, and they've not managed to nail down the one single core mechanic they absolutely must nail? Hate to keep dragging up ED all the time, but they settled on their basic flight mechanics by this point in development. It's not that hard to do, if you're willing to do what game developers have always done and cheat. Roberts' insistence on physical realism is a boondoggle. Stuff like that gif Aesaar posted up there? Shouldn't ever happen. Would never have happened in a normal system (Or, at least, would have never happened outside a few amusing outtakes in a making-of somewhere).

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You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.

So they chose to go for physical realism, had to cheat to make it work, and then did so badly? Priceless, is what that is.

Quote
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.

Fun fact: Elite's COBRA engine has about the same level of customization that CIG did for CryEngine.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 02:52:57 pm
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.
"How would releasing a game help with the perception that they're never going to release a game?"

Take your time figuring that one out.

Actually, let me walk you through it, since you obviously need the help: Nearly all of the things you need to get SQ42 done, you're going to need for the PU as well.  That ranges from core gameplay mechanics (like flight models, ship FPS, and customization), to a few civilian, military, and alien ship models.  So you get that done first.  Then you release act 1 of SQ42 as proof that, hey, we can actually make a fun game!  You perfect that, then you work on the **** you need for the PU, like netcode, economy, quests, star systems.  You start with a relatively modest, small-scale game that you can reliably deliver in a couple of years, then you move on to the big stuff.  If they'd done that, we'd be playing SQ42 by now, because SQ42 isn't that complex a game.  It should have come out long before what we see in 2.0.

Instead they're developing everything at once.  The PU isn't going to come any faster, since SQ42 work isn't wasted either way, but because of unnecessary PU ****, SQ42 is getting delayed just like all their tech demo modules.

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Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?
For this kind of development, there's no meaningful difference, except that your suggestion makes them look like morons.  And yeah, what The_E said.

Quote
You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.
If you haven't figured out your core gameplay, you can storyboard missions.  That's pretty much the extent of what you can do.

Well, unless you're making a movie, in which case you can make nothing but 4 point patrols with 30 minutes of mocap cinematics in between.

But like The_E says, **** like the flight model and ship customization is at the very heart of the game.  They're the most important gameplay systems.  It should be pinned down by now.  It should have been pinned down last year.  They should absolutely be able to give very specific information about how you'll be able to customize your ship, not the same vague bull**** they were giving out 3 years ago.

The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

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You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.
Key word here being afterburner.  And that's really something.  You're comparing SC ships to Freespace ones, and the only way Freespace ones feel comparable is if you bring up afterburner acceleration.  But yeah, you're right, SC ships feel like they have Freespace afterburners, except in every direction and not just when afterburning.  I'm glad we agree. 

Wow, that groundbreaking "realistic" flight model was really worth it.  I guess it's groundbreaking to make a really complex system so you don't have to cheat, but then end up needing to cheat and the results are worse than if you hadn't bothered at all.

Actually that summarizes a lot of things in SC.  Applies to their animation/headbobbing too.

Quote
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.
Right, those games had premade engines.  Unlike Cryengine.  CIG made that from scratch, right?

"Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite" Er, why?  I mean, I can see why a game would be harder to make if your management is incompetent, but I don't think that's what you mean.

And CR has been harping on about his past games for the entire development.  You've pointed to them as well.  You don't get to say "I have faith in CR because of his past games" and then "CIG aren't an established studio, so that's why they should be measured by a different standard than everyone else".  Either they know what they're doing or they don't.  Pick one.

5 years is next year, not 2017-2018.  This game started development in December 2011.  If you want to claim development only began after the Kickstarter, then Elite Dangerous started development in December 2012.


But yeah, I guess I'm impatient.  Must have been spoiled by all those games that release within a few months of their projected release dates.  Good thing Chris Roberts is here to show me that real game development is all about missing deadlines, not pinning down core gameplay systems, and selling 400$ jpegs.  This must be what people mean when they talk about how revolutionary SC is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 14, 2015, 03:06:49 pm
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?

Because that tiny modding team used a functional, versatile engine and set out to combine two genres of gameplay in a limited scope, rather than trying to build the FIRST PERSON UNIVERSE in a shoddy tech demo hardcoded to make FPSes look pretty.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 14, 2015, 03:08:16 pm
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?

Serious answer? Because the "scope of the game" to "time and money required" curve is exponential, not linear. :) SC's biggest asset AND curse is its breathtaking overambition in literally every aspect of its development. The fact that it's going way over time and budget is a natural and unsurprising consequence of it's scope.

Wow, that groundbreaking "realistic" flight model was really worth it.  I guess it's groundbreaking to make a really complex system so you don't have to cheat, but then end up needing to cheat and the results are worse than if you hadn't bothered at all.

Chris Roberts isn't the first to make that particular mistake, and he won't be the last. Unfortunately all to often between hubris and the "sunk cost" fallacy, the "crappy but non-cheaty" thing ends up staying even when it shouldn't. Somewhat ironically, Derek Smart is another legendary offender in this category.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 03:19:21 pm
They should really have hired some industrial designers, or somebody who understands how physical objects work. From the very beginning, SC has been criticised for chunky ship design (a hallmark of Roberts' work if I do say so myself),  and it's kind of obvious that they don't really know how to design a ship  that really relates to the real world in any way. Couple that with a flight model that relies on actual physics to make the ships work well...how did they not think that they'd have to have a real understanding of physics to make it work?

Game artists in general don't typically know how to make real world things. Just interesting they didn't see the potential problem beforehand - maybe because they're so detached from the real world (in terms of mechanics) that they didn't even forsee the problem.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 04:02:31 pm
They should really have hired some industrial designers, or somebody who understands how physical objects work. From the very beginning, SC has been criticised for chunky ship design (a hallmark of Roberts' work if I do say so myself),  and it's kind of obvious that they don't really know how to design a ship  that really relates to the real world in any way. Couple that with a flight model that relies on actual physics to make the ships work well...how did they not think that they'd have to have a real understanding of physics to make it work?

Game artists in general don't typically know how to make real world things. Just interesting they didn't see the potential problem beforehand - maybe because they're so detached from the real world (in terms of mechanics) that they didn't even forsee the problem.

To be fair, they did:
http://ryanchurch.com/
https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12783-Introducing-The-RSI-Constellation-Mk3

Ryan Church did study industrial design and has worked extensively in both game and film. I've seen some his tutorial videos from gnomon workshop.

But he ultimately probably has Chris or some other person "signing off" on his concepts so his creative control is likely somewhat limited.

Incidentally, I doubt this guy is cheap

EDIT - I wonder if one of the big problems is that Rob Irving left. I mean he's the lead gameplay designer. Ditched the project to go make a Descent sequel. Having your lead gameplay designer leave the project can never be good for the production
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on December 14, 2015, 08:38:55 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.
The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game.  The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today.  You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there.  Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 08:59:10 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.
The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game.  The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today.  You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there.  Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?

Well, it was a "game" in the minecraft sense of being a "game". Some might argue that minecraft isn't even a game just a sandbox to fart around in.  The actual "end game" with the Nether and the end was added later.
But you're correct in saying that most of the mechanics were already established. Crafting is much the same as is resource collection and basic rules of the world with regards to monsters and so forth. Some additional things have changed like enchanting and the addition of more mechanics.

Hell even the graphics are pretty much the same. Got it one! They just changed the damn gravel.

But yeah, if Minecraft were Star Citizen well, then the initial "game" would be you running around hitting other players with wooden swords.  But some people will have paid an extra 50 dollars for a bow, and some others paid an extra 300 dollars for leather armour and an iron sword. And some real nutters will have ponied up 900 cash for diamond gear, which is not yet in the game but will be soon. But there'd be no crafting, no terrain generation, maybe just a pre-generated house where you could place 30-dollar plant pots before you stepped out and hit another guy with a stick.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 03:48:44 am
The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

According to this logic, Elite: Dangerous is in development from 2001. Thats where the studio first announced they have some people working on Elite 4, lol.

There is a difference between "development" when just a handful of people are working on a nice trailer, and proper development of an AAA game with dozens of devs working on the game full time. SC may have been technically in development from 2011, but proper development did not start until somewhere in 2013, when actual studios with dozens of people working full time on the game were established. That is around 2 and a half years ago. As I said, while Star Citizen is a bit late, you are also being impatient. 2017-2018 is a deadline when if based Chris does not deliver, I will begin to seriously doubt his ability to do so. But not before, it is too soon to judge.

Quote
maslow, how much have you spent on SC so far?

53 dollars.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 04:53:02 am
Bad news for anyone still hoping for a refund: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wzwwy/cig_denies_refund_and_claim_that_a_substantial/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 16, 2015, 05:17:55 am
Oh god that's hilarious.

So according to that, they've been working on the game for 3 years.

More choice quotes:
"A substantive part of the planned gameplay is now available".
"[...] we feel the results, such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity, are already speaking for themselves!"

Such fidelity.

(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/v9EZZN.gif)

Such immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 06:10:41 am
The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

According to this logic, Elite: Dangerous is in development from 2001. Thats where the studio first announced they have some people working on Elite 4, lol.

There is a difference between "development" when just a handful of people are working on a nice trailer, and proper development of an AAA game with dozens of devs working on the game full time. SC may have been technically in development from 2011, but proper development did not start until somewhere in 2013, when actual studios with dozens of people working full time on the game were established. That is around 2 and a half years ago. As I said, while Star Citizen is a bit late, you are also being impatient. 2017-2018 is a deadline when if based Chris does not deliver, I will begin to seriously doubt his ability to do so. But not before, it is too soon to judge.
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012?  Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.

Also, 'real' development started 2.5 years ago now?  lol.  You people just can't stop moving the goalposts, can you?  You know, if you constantly need to make revisions like that to make this game's development seem reasonable, you've already lost.

And no, I'm not being impatient.  I expect a game sold as a Nov. 2014 release to be released within a year of that date.  You can point to "increased scope" all you want, but that doesn't apply to SQ42 (as much as you'd like it to).  Hell, the scope of SQ42 is actually smaller than it was, since they cut drop-in drop-out co-op.

I'm sorry you're so devoted to this cult that you think holding a developer accountable for their own statements is being impatient.  It's very sad.

But yeah, I guess I'm impatient.  Must have been spoiled by all those games that release within a few months of their projected release dates.  Good thing Chris Roberts is here to show me that real game development is all about missing deadlines, not pinning down core gameplay systems, and selling 400$ jpegs.  This must be what people mean when they talk about how revolutionary SC is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 10:32:00 am
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012?

Yeah, it is plausible.

Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.

Nah. Elite is a much simpler game than SC. For one thing, you are glued to your seat. And all of the aspects of E:D are quite simplistic. This is not just my opinion, it is the prevailing opinion of the playerbase. The common saying to describe E:D is "mile wide, inch deep".

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/3v0j18/ed_needs_more_depth_not_breadth/

E:D is not a bad game at all, but lets just say that I would be very disappointed if Star Citizen was released but resembled something like Elite: Dangerous. If I had to choose between a simple SC that is already released, and complex SC that takes its time to develop, I choose the latter. People did not pledge >$100 million to get yet another ordinary space sim. And if there is one thing money cannot buy easily, it is faster development. Nine women wont make a kid in one month.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 10:50:32 am
Holiday livestream starts in 3 hours.

twitch.tv/starcitizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 16, 2015, 10:51:16 am
ED has all its systems in place to create depth. It's a stable (and hopefully profitable) system to build on.

SC's design methodology is to iterate over and over on every level, with high-end changes rendering low-end content worthless. It's like building a pyramid on quicksand.

Having worked in both types of dev environments, one a very big-budget project, I know which one works better. Even if SC ends up succeeding, it will be a lesser success than it could've been with a well managed dev cycle.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 11:28:17 am
Is there a point in arguing about differences in depth, when SC 2.0 is nothing more than a tech demo of localized physics grids and large world with some placeholder missions? There is no guarantee that Star Citizen won't be as shallow, or even more so, than E:D, even with more development time and bigger budget.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 16, 2015, 12:32:04 pm
I hope he doesn't when Star Citizen is released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 01:10:32 pm
Nah. Elite is a much simpler game than SC. For one thing, you are glued to your seat. And all of the aspects of E:D are quite simplistic. This is not just my opinion, it is the prevailing opinion of the playerbase. The common saying to describe E:D is "mile wide, inch deep".
No, at this moment, E:D is a simpler game than what SC wants to be.  There's a difference.  You're comparing an actual game that exists to a dream (a common thing citizens do when talking about E:D).  There is absolutely no guarantee that SC will deliver on that dream, and it most certainly hasn't done so yet.  What E:D is right now is a far, far more complete and elaborate game than what SC is right now.  This is not debatable.  It isn't opinion.  If you think otherwise you are utterly delusional and there's no more point arguing with you than there would be arguing with a young-earth creationist.

E:D is an actual game.  Maybe a bit bare, but it's a very solid framework onto which they can add content fairly easily.  SC is a tech demo.  They can't add content to it yet because most of their gameplay systems aren't even finished.  This includes hugely important core ones.

Quote
E:D is not a bad game at all, but lets just say that I would be very disappointed if Star Citizen was released but resembled something like Elite: Dangerous. If I had to choose between a simple SC that is already released, and complex SC that takes its time to develop, I choose the latter. People did not pledge >$100 million to get yet another ordinary space sim. And if there is one thing money cannot buy easily, it is faster development. Nine women wont make a kid in one month.
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 01:37:28 pm
So that holiday stream coincided with another ship sale? Some 2-3 weeks after the last sale? And by sale I mean 1250-2500 USD a pop.
Limited quantities, limited time. Honestly seems a little disgusting. 

Though this seems to be the season where every webpage is begging for money, whether it be wikipedia. mozilla, boardgamegeek, etcetera.

Derek Smart put up a new blog but it's password locked, dunno why.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 01:40:50 pm
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. EVA/SpaceLegs are at least a year out, as the content of Horizons is broadly known and doesn't contain it. Multicrew is supposed to be in, though with no ability to walk around or go outside and breath in space air. SC has EVA already, although in non-persistent world.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 01:43:07 pm
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. EVA/SpaceLegs are at least a year out, as the content of Horizons is broadly known and doesn't contain it. Multicrew is supposed to be in, though with no ability to walk around or go outside and breath in space air. SC has EVA already, although in non-persistent world.
Star Citizen is almost certainly more than a year out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 01:53:40 pm
True, though I expect SQ42 to be released in 2016, no matter the quality. It won't be a MMO, but it should resemble a finished game (with terrible writing, if Wing Commander movie is an indication of Roberts' storytelling abilities).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 16, 2015, 01:59:53 pm
Arguing SC depth vs E:D depth would only be fair if you argued what SC aspires to be vs what E:D aspires to be. Elite: Dangerous is not finished. Though you'll have to pay extra to add on the extra things as they are released, some things are free content, some things are paid expansions. They just released Horizons. But I imagine one day there'll be an Elite: Dangerous Complete Edition available to buy if all goes to plan for them, which will also probably be a lot cheaper than buying everything as it comes out. It's also probably impossible to argue for what Elite: Dangerous' ultimate aspirations are, as they are deliberately keeping it quiet. We don't know what role such things as alien races and the blocked off systems will play in the future.

In terms of what each game is right now, it's no contest. It's kind of like imagining there are two mansions being built, one is fit to live in and has plenty of rooms complete and ready for use as the building work on the rest of the mansion continues smoothly on schedule, while the other is barely fit to live in never mind do anything else in and the building work has been beset by numerous delays and problems.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 16, 2015, 02:06:20 pm
End of the fiscal year, everybody needs to make the extra monies so the books look good and hopefully in the black.

So long as E:D is making money to support keeping devs in seats, it can keep expanding and delivering more content which will in turn keep consumers playing and investing.  SC so far is dependent on folks throwing money at a project that like it or not has engendered a lot of skepticism.  In the long run regular stable deliverables will keep that revenue stream alive and vigorous compared to promises and JPEGs.  Not to mention if both projects fail at least with E:D you actually have something in hand for your money.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 16, 2015, 03:12:05 pm
ED is in my favorite phase of game development, the phase in which thousands of players are in a live environment and the devs can actually iterate design based on the behavior of actual players.

SC seems determined to build massive vertical 'slices' (more like pits) and ram them out into the world without any mass-scale testing in the caustic bath of network issues, abusive goons, and easily bored casuals who don't have any interest in enhancing their immersion by cleaning up coffee cup rings and physically simulated lines of coke on the couches of a $20,000 preordered starliner.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 03:42:55 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 16, 2015, 03:56:20 pm
easily bored casuals who don't have any interest in enhancing their immersion by cleaning up coffee cup rings and physically simulated lines of cokes on the couches of a $20,000 preordered starliner.

Hey bro,

first

its only a $19,990 starliner (personalized invite referral pricing, pleb)

second

that coke line engine has been in the works for years. They could've just taken the same bored and limited middleware that GTA V did, but CIG built their custom drug consumption engine from the ground up, to ensure that the immersion from doing coke off of a 500,000 poly per cushion PBR couches with real time memory foam deformation and modeled thread seams is done the right and immersive way.

(btw who wants to join my tony montana clan)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 04:20:58 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...

Yup. Trailer:

Gameplay:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 04:55:10 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...

Yup. Trailer:

Gameplay:

I can do that in E:D right now.

The_E literally yesterday:

(http://i.imgur.com/pdn7vRB.png)

Seriously, I think the only place SC is ahead of E:D is in letting you control your character.  Hell, E:D, in spite of having you character glued to the ship seat, has a better looking character model than SC does.  Even lets you pick your pilot's gender.  SC's still a sausagefest two years after the hangar release.  Though I suppose that doesn't matter since the community and moderation team managed to drive a lot of women away by being insanely ****ty (not a joke (https://www.themittani.com/news/sc-user-banned-over-proposing-female-social-group)).

And even if this wasn't the case, CIG's problem isn't that they can't deliver shiny videos and images.  They're pretty good at doing that.  Their problems are with actually making a playable, stable, fun game that delivers on the promises those videos make.


Also, kinda funny:

Quote from: Chris Roberts, 12/16/15
[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.

Glad he finally noticed.  His insanely awkward and frustrated attempts to play his own game were easily the best part of the stream.


I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
This is very true.  Because E:D is a game, it gets judged as the imperfect game it is.  It can't hide behind "it's an alpha".  SC is a dream, and it gets judged as the perfect game the backers imagine it'll be, not as what it is.  You can see maslo doing this with every post he makes. 

This is why CIG delivering stuff is actually kinda risky for them.  The more the game takes shape, the harder it gets for backers to reconcile that shape with their dreams.  Example: People are already getting very, very angry about "griefing" (basically others doing anything they don't like, including shooting at them).  How pissed are they going to be if CIG says the "griefers" aren't doing anything wrong?


It's also very funny that CR is so desperately trying to one-up Braben.  It's so predictable the SA thread called this a week ago.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 16, 2015, 05:03:44 pm
The part of the second video that made me most jealous (from an E:D player perspective) was the seamless quantum jump to the station (around 0:20-0:33). Really tired of the drop-from-supercruise transition and the teleport-popping and freezing that comes with it.

The rest looked almost *exactly* like what I was playing last night. The base was a different design, and there was no atmospheric eyecandy, but otherwise yeah, you can do that in Elite right now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 05:21:18 pm
I'm not sure how much of this freeze can be removed, tbh. I have seen some improvements since Horizons, but it's still noticeable. SC can load all the data during the jump animation, and there's no need to establish the connection "on the fly". SC alpha, as well as other offline tech demos, has no problem with that because of everyone (16 people for now) being connected to the same server at the startup. I wonder how it will change in real-life conditions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 06:24:51 pm
Can you land anywhere on those planets or only at bases?

I also find it interesting that immediately outside the landing area, the planet loses definition. It goes from fairly detailed rocky area to basically rolling amorphous hills. the landing area is rocky and jagged, the area surrounding is all rounded as if by water erosion.

 So is it a procedural planet with a hand-built landing location? The planet just window dressing for the park? Or can you land anywhere you want and get out? What happens if you land, get in another guy's ship and take off? Does your ship get swallowed by the lesser LODs?

Also, kinda funny:

Quote from: Chris Roberts, 12/16/15
[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.

Glad he finally noticed.  His insanely awkward and frustrated attempts to play his own game were easily the best part of the stream.


Also kind of deliberately dishonest, since he wasn't talking about the interface in general but specifically the chat interface.


Though nice gameplay demo huh?
First he had problems launching the game. Then he ran around the station for 10 minutes. Then he got in his fighter, and his joystick didn't work so switched to a gamepad. Then he jumped to another system and the game crashed. Bravo.

Also why is there sound in space? Doesn't the game use muffled, BSG-style gunshots? Or am I wrong? Yet when he was on the deck of the station, he could hear his ship's ladder extending and so forth. Personally if its' going for realism then a BSG-style sound makes the most sense but whatever.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 16, 2015, 08:07:30 pm
If Elite's a mile wide and an inch deep, Star Citizen's Nemo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_33).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on December 16, 2015, 10:00:06 pm
Awkward moment is awkward. (https://twitter.com/istheguy/status/677322882096189440)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 10:13:22 pm
You can watch him playing the whole bit here at 2hours and 10 minutes. Doesn't seem to allow time markers in this forum
the rest:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 17, 2015, 12:32:03 am
Though I suppose that doesn't matter since the community and moderation team managed to drive a lot of women away by being insanely ****ty (not a joke (https://www.themittani.com/news/sc-user-banned-over-proposing-female-social-group)).

Are you reading the same article as I am?

Quote
Lesnick took the time to point out he has no reason to believe Lauresh was banned simply for being a woman, but it was due to the numerous flagging with profane messages such as "mother ****ing troll" and "stop this person from ****ting up the thread already." The steps the moderator took that were improper were, as previously stated, giving a week long ban over the 24 hour ban due to CIG striking a previous ban from Lauresh. According to Lesnick's post, the thread also should not have been closed due to the lack of "toxic behavior" that the original post and intent held.

Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.

It's also very funny that CR is so desperately trying to one-up Braben.  It's so predictable the SA thread called this a week ago.

It was known for much longer than a week that procedural generation demo is coming, doesnt take a genius to figure it out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 17, 2015, 01:40:20 am
Can you land anywhere on those planets or only at bases?

I also find it interesting that immediately outside the landing area, the planet loses definition. It goes from fairly detailed rocky area to basically rolling amorphous hills. the landing area is rocky and jagged, the area surrounding is all rounded as if by water erosion.

 So is it a procedural planet with a hand-built landing location? The planet just window dressing for the park? Or can you land anywhere you want and get out? What happens if you land, get in another guy's ship and take off? Does your ship get swallowed by the lesser LODs?

In Elite, you can land anywhere on a planet. There usually are a few marked points of interest on the surface, which are then represented by stations with procedurally generated layouts. The environment has the same level of detail throughout.
And no, you can't enter another player's ship. They were planning to enable that sort of piracy at some point, but nothing's happened with it yet and it doesn't seem to be a planned feature for Horizons.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 02:36:43 am
Did you notice how it sounds like this was CR's first time playing his own tech demo?


Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?


Unrelated:

(http://i.imgur.com/FGof4QD.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod80301&categoryId=cat3910198

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod3070163&categoryId=cat3250024

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189&categoryId=cat1676047

Now that's a responsible use of backer funds right there.  Potentially 4000$ for three pieces of office furniture.

I wonder what they've spent there in total.  More of that **** turns up in every single picture or video they take of their offices.  It's like that $20k coffee machine they bought.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 17, 2015, 11:52:21 am
Did you notice how it sounds like this was CR's first time playing his own tech demo?


Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?


Unrelated:

(http://i.imgur.com/FGof4QD.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod80301&categoryId=cat3910198

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod3070163&categoryId=cat3250024

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189&categoryId=cat1676047

Now that's a responsible use of backer funds right there.  Potentially 4000$ for three pieces of office furniture.

I wonder what they've spent there in total.  More of that **** turns up in every single picture or video they take of their offices.  It's like that $20k coffee machine they bought.





So what have you bought lately and when can we accuse your employer of irresponsible use of funds because of what you bought with your salary?

Hey. .. not saying it isn t exactly as you say ... but on the other hand, you are jumping to conclusions without having a clue, so who knows? ;-)


But it's sure an interesting PR problem for large companies based on kickstarter... i.e. what salary do you actually allow yourself? Or do backers suppose that people working on their project don't get paid a dime until release? Or may not buy anything beyond basic neccessities and food? ;-)


Kinda a huge can of worms that you open with simple accusations like that. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 12:03:44 pm
Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 12:11:21 pm
So what have you bought lately and when can we accuse your employer of irresponsible use of funds because of what you bought with your salary?

Hey. .. not saying it isn t exactly as you say ... but on the other hand, you are jumping to conclusions without having a clue, so who knows? ;-)
I think there's a difference between spending your personal money on things, and spending money people gave you to make a game on a $2000 desk when you could have bought a perfectly serviceable one at Ikea for $150.  If you don't see a difference there, that's your problem, not mine.

And show me where I "jump to conclusions without having a clue".

Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website.  I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.

There's also that $20k coffee machine they bought.

EDIT: here we go:

(http://i.imgur.com/NLQmuZs.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/dQkIYEt.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod2710129&categoryId=cat1676047

So yeah, pretty sure it's furniture typical of their studio.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 17, 2015, 12:44:07 pm
Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website.  I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.

There's also that $20k coffee machine they bought.

EDIT: here we go:

(http://i.imgur.com/NLQmuZs.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/dQkIYEt.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod2710129&categoryId=cat1676047

So yeah, pretty sure it's furniture typical of their studio.
This is going to be not only the UAV/Aeronautics lab here in UPM Serdang, but also the game development studio for my forthcoming project following the FreeSpace 2 Open-based Shattered Stars.

EDIT: When I'm referring to that project, it's going to be a response to Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous and No Man's Land.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 12:50:16 pm
*No Man's Sky

But yeah those tables look similar to a 500 dollar one on that website. 3 grand in tables sitting right there.
A far cry from one of the studios I worked at where I was stuck at 10-dollar ikea desks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 17, 2015, 01:34:34 pm
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

Did you ignore those vulgar messages the troll sent to the moderators? He deserves one day ban for that alone. Normal well meaning community members certainly do not act that way. It was obviously an attempt to stir up trouble, and it has Goon methods written all over it. So forgive me for calling spade a spade. Here, let me paste it again:

Quote
Let me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2421310/#Comment_2421310


Source for the dick pic accusation? I havent heard about that one... Do you have some evidence or is it just Derek Smart tier hearsay yet again?

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?

I do agree that Chris attempt to play his own game was a bit cringeworthy. For example, I find the chat window perfectly usable, however I know it is turned off by pressing Enter key. It seems like Chris was unaware of that, hence his frustration with the interface. Unless it was a bug or an unfamiliar setup..


Anyway, here is what David Braben of Elite fame said about Star Citizen:

Quote
Landing on planets seems to be ‘the new black’ as they might say in marketing circles… You can do it now anywhere on the surface of countless 1:1 scale simulated planetary surfaces in Elite Dangerous: Horizons and landing is coming in the future in No Man’s Sky, Star Citizen (as I heard just now – a major new future feature they announced last night), Infinity: Battlescape and many others. This is a great thing, as open world space games have now truly come back with a bang, and I look forwards to playing them – and also huge congratulations to Chris and the team for raising $100M for Star Citizen!

What both Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are trying to do is very hard indeed. Both games are incredibly ambitious. I am proud and excited about what we are doing, but what they are doing is ambitious too, and I am looking forward to playing Star Citizen when it is finished. What we are both doing is new; we are trailblazing. The scope of both is vast and quite different, and neither have been done before, so there is no right answer for either of the approaches. It is frustrating to see some of the criticism of Star Citizen online. We should applaud when someone tries something that is hard, that hasn’t been done, not discourage them.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3278592#post3278592

Indeed, it is frustrating to see some of the toxic nitpicking that Star Citizen is the subject of by the detractors of our based Chris. As I said many times, it is too early to judge..  :yes: We are trailblazing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 17, 2015, 01:38:04 pm
Star Citizen is doing a very good job of trailblazing its way right into the ground, yes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2015, 01:47:55 pm
The biggest thing I took away from working in the games industry is how easy it is to conceal toxic politics, rampant mismanagement, and total creative confusion from anyone outside the studio.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 01:58:20 pm
Indeed, it is frustrating to see some of the toxic nitpicking that Star Citizen is the subject of by the detractors of our based Chris. As I said many times, it is too early to judge..  :yes: We are trailblazing.

It works both ways. People are nitpicking sure, but supporters of the game aren't viewing it with a critical eye either.
If I was an actual supporter of the game I would find that live demo of the game an embarrassment. Then weren't set up to run the game and when the game did get started Chris didn't seem to be enjoying it and the game crashed right away.  Can't they get a stable build for the demo?

And really, what is more important than the demonstration of actual gameplay?  Nothing.

As someone who plays games, when I see a demo, I want to see the actual game being played. This is true in trailers and livestreams and whatever else. Star Citizen live-streams on the other hand seem to be focused on two things,  showing off ship models,  and showing off actors.  If I all wanted to see was drawings of ships I would just head to deviant art or conceptships blog and see a ****ton in about 5 minutes.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 02:19:34 pm
Did you ignore those vulgar messages the troll sent to the moderators? He deserves one day ban for that alone. Normal well meaning community members certainly do not act that way. It was obviously an attempt to stir up trouble, and it has Goon methods written all over it. So forgive me for calling spade a spade. Here, let me paste it again:

Quote
Let me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2421310/#Comment_2421310
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Are you really this broken?


SC has the single worst community I've ever seen, and that's overwhelmingly because Ben fostered that environment through incredibly ****ty moderation policies, and it's only gotten worse over time.  He's a horrible community manager.


Quote
Source for the dick pic accusation? I havent heard about that one... Do you have some evidence or is it just Derek Smart tier hearsay yet again?
The victim posted in the SA thread a few months back.  Had screenshots of the email and a really creepy RSI chat conversation she had with the guy.  This was two threads ago so I'm not going to spend hours digging it up.  Believe me or don't.  I don't much care.  You'd try and rationalize it away even if I did.


Unrelated: Good post on the Frontier forums about planetary landings and graphics:
Quote from: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=203785&page=96&p=3274872#post3274872

Quote
Already blows ED out of the water technically but the big difference is it isn't live and playable yet.
ED need to up their game though because that is truly seamless and the planet had an atmosphere, albeit no weather, and the fidelity was much higher already and it is only in the early stages.

No.

An atmospheric scattering effect isn't such a big deal nor the big challenge in doing PG planets. Pretty much every PG planet demo on youtube has it including all the small one man teams playing around with it from their "bedrooms". If anything atmospheric scattering can be used to hide and fade away terrain while being "shiny" and "earthlike" which seems to fool a lot of people into thinking "better". Same thing with the Inovae Engine.

Case in point.

With scattering in Outterra:
http://i.imgur.com/EEf9PiLl.png

With scattering turned off:
http://i.imgur.com/fuO4oEyl.png

Showing the planet "naked" and without that "shiny effect" is a much bigger challenge while also making it look good. Something that ED have accomplished. As soon as they start to add these kind of things on top of what they have peoples perception of the quality will go through the roof IMO. Hopefully this video from SC might actually speed up the process of getting there sooner in ED.

The "fidelity" in the Star Citizen demo was actually nowhere near what can currently be seen in ED in regards to the PG terrain. Especially in terms of believable large scale features. What was shown was some rather generic noise algorithms applied pretty evenly across the entire surface of the planet as a heightmap. If they would remove the atmosphere layer and show that planet in full sunlight it would basically look like this currently...

http://i.imgur.com/KjgmKp3l.png

Now compare that to this in ED:
http://www.elitegalaxy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EliteDangerous64-2015-12-09-03-13-27-940x500.png

Which is why we are only shown the nightside of the planet from afar at the moment.

The fidelity in the custom made terrain around the base was higher of course, due to it being handmade, but all of the PG terrain around it was very simple compared to even many one man team efforts that have shown of videos on youtube. The terrain tech in SC will without question improve though and I look forward to seeing where it goes, but it's not like FD is gonna sit around on their hands doing nothing either.

EDs engine is just as seamless when just moving around in the engine. The difference is that in-game in ED we also have the network layer on top. How seamless SC will be while connecting to other players inside the real game instead of a tech demo like this is yet to be seen. However...there is a possibility that it might actually feel more seamless depending on how the split up them map of the star system. If the connection to the other players happens when using quantum drive to approach "orbit" as shown in the video and you already at that stage gets connected to the people down on the ground then it will be more seamless since no switch will be needed while going down. The downside is that orbit (including the station shown) and the planet itself will share an instance thus spreading out people over a much bigger area. Another downside according to my book is the uncontrollable quantum drive when moving big distances in space. I personally prefer the manual control EDs super cruise gives us.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 17, 2015, 02:45:51 pm
Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Please point to where on the doll Goons touched your EVE spaceship
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 17, 2015, 03:46:05 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 03:50:20 pm
Paying $2000 for a desk is funny.  I mean, it's smarter than spending $2500 for a jpeg, but it's still pretty dumb.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2015, 03:52:52 pm
I want to put my predictions down on paper:

Assuming the company doesn't collapse due to mismanagement, Star Citizen will be

—A released, open world, first person space sim/FPS
—Closer to the pessimist' predictions than the optimists
—Playable and largely good-looking
—A complete technical and design cluster****, with major rollbacks in the simulationist philosophy to make an actual game
—Most closely comparable to PlanetSide 2, in that it will be an ambitious concept plagued by technical difficulties, bad balance, and an inability to find actual fun in the huge gamescape
—Comparable to EVE Online in the punishing complexity/confusion of its metagame and the toxicity of its forums
—Comparable to Freelancer in the number of features cut or disabled
—Littered with abandoned features, broken preorder promises, and drama about who has 'earned' special in-game treatment via backing
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 17, 2015, 04:33:38 pm
In my mind SC is sort of a prototype platform for the next generation of space sim games. Even if it doesn't turn out great in and of itself, hopefully it will help advance space sim technology.

In other words, even if they don't get it right, I'm hoping someone else will be able to learn from their experience, both successes and failures. It's like the worlds largest crowdfunded gaming research project.

As I've mentioned before: I don't like their odds of even qualified success, but I'm cheering for them anyway.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 17, 2015, 04:51:35 pm
Star Citizen is the technological dead-end you'd expect if you built an open-world space MMO in an engine built for FPS tech demos. Every ~major advance~ they've made has consisted of repairing one of the ****ups that lead on from that decision. Like with literally every other thing SC has accomplished, E:D did it earlier, cheaper, and with less wanky fanfare.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 17, 2015, 05:37:53 pm
—Most closely comparable to PlanetSide 2, in that it will be an ambitious concept plagued by technical difficulties, bad balance, and an inability to find actual fun in the huge gamescape
But I had a huuuge amount of fun in Planetside 2 with a lot of really fond memories of amazing battles and heroic feats.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 06:14:17 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness

The price of the tables relative to the total budget is not relevant no, but it can be indicative of the overall philosophy of the company and the way they manage their money.

Ion Storm, the studio headed by John Romero which produced Daikatana was located in the penthouse of a large office tower.  Now some would rightly ask, "Why the hell are you in the penthouse? What a waste of money".  But for him it was a status symbol, he wanted the studio fancy even if later on it was discovered that the skylights and computers made it very hot and difficult to work and the studio turned into a virtual shanty town with cloth draped over cubicles to shut out the light while employees slept on the floor. Incidentally his super ambitious game,  Daikatana, was released years late and buggy with poor AI after many internal studio troubles.


Now imagine if that studio and game was crowd-funded. Would it be odd for people to ask "Why the hell are you in the penthouse instead of in a much cheaper ground-floor suite?". Would moving into a ground floor or cheaper suite be equivalent of living in squalor? No of course not.

So why would filling your studio with affordable furniture be anything less?
Like if those tables in fact cost 3000 dollars, that represents the contributions of 100 30-dollar backers.  How would you feel to know you're trying to help make a game and your money was spent for 1/17th of a table for one employee?

Like congratulations 666maslo666, your 53 dollars may have helped pay for anywhere from 2.7% to 4.8% of a Industrial Tool Chest 4-Door Media (priced 1095 to 1895 dollars).   

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 17, 2015, 10:06:45 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness

If the game is completed, no one. But if they have to start cutting features or quit cause they ran out of money, then yeah it becomes a little more important.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 17, 2015, 10:44:46 pm
Yeah to me, the whole furniture thing feels like it says more about the attitude of the people running the place. If I were backing a game dev studio, I'd have no issue with them buying high level, premium equipment that can get the job done better and boosts morale. Buy a $2000 desk? Sure, but it better have amazing wi-fi connected drawers, motorized height control and a 4 inch thick solid maple/marble/granite top that will support the weight of the 6 panel display mount that's also being requisitioning in.

But they bought a door with metal legs from the most absurdly overpriced place that seems to cater to set designers for pretentious magazines that detail this month's rich hipster (luckily there's only 1 a month).

I mean those desks look like something you find lying in an Ikea garbage bin.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 02:26:12 am
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Reporting sexist and ****ty comments while using vulgar language? Ban that troll indeed!

Also, there were other bans handed out in that threat, lots of them for sexist comments. Making sexist comments is not tolerated on SC forums. The Female gamers group then went on with increased moderation and it all went well in the end. As I said, Star Citizen community is very welcoming to women and minorities. But not to trolls, Goon or not.

The only objective mistake committed by SC moderation in this whole incident was that a moderator handed out a 7 day ban instead of 1 day ban for first offense. A minor thing which was later corrected.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 18, 2015, 03:43:10 am
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Reporting sexist and ****ty comments while using vulgar language? Ban that troll indeed!

Also, there were other bans handed out in that threat, lots of them for sexist comments. Making sexist comments is not tolerated on SC forums. The Female gamers group then went on with increased moderation and it all went well in the end. As I said, Star Citizen community is very welcoming to women and minorities. But not to trolls, Goon or not.

The only objective mistake committed by SC moderation in this whole incident was that a moderator handed out a 7 day ban instead of 1 day ban for first offense. A minor thing which was later corrected.
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.

The community is objectively terrible, it's a hug box that's even driven away still loyal fans of Star Citizen from both reddit and the main forums. Someone named Baragoon who **** all over a LGBT group's thread went pretty much unpunished and still actively posts. The moderation is terrible as well, Beer4thebeergod got perma banned on the forums for his very first slight against it (a single, critical post) despite being very active in the community beforehand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 04:25:27 am
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.

The community is objectively terrible, it's a hug box that's even driven away still loyal fans of Star Citizen from both reddit and the main forums. Someone named Baragoon who **** all over a LGBT group's thread went pretty much unpunished and still actively posts. The moderation is terrible as well, Beer4thebeergod got perma banned on the forums for his very first slight against it (a single, critical post) despite being very active in the community beforehand.

The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 05:18:45 am
The insulting language was used in post reports. While I wouldn't want our reports here to be full of vulgarity, it is certainly understood by all moderators on this board that language used in a post report is only an issue if said report is unreadable. Everything else is unimportant, and banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 18, 2015, 05:19:45 am
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.

I'm pretty sure I've been vulgar in some of my reports. I've never been banned about it. Several of those reports have been acted on.

I mean, if somebody walks up to you and declares "I'M HITLER" and whips out their swastika-tattoo'd genitalia to prove it, what kind of response beyond "holy **** what is wrong with you" and "you are a pig-ignorant asshole get ****ed" is even possible for most people?

We've had some pretty horrifying things said in GenDisc before here and the outpouring of horror has been unfeigned and usually unmoderated because what else are people going to do?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 18, 2015, 05:27:04 am
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.

Are you serious? No decent forum will ban people because they used any language to insult other members. What's the difference between calling someone an idiot or a '****ing idiot'? Internet discussions are pretty normal and so is 'vulgar' language, you don't just hand out bans for that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2015, 05:55:09 am
i remember seeing the SA thread from when lauresh got banned, there were plenty of goons saying that probably she'd gone too far with the abusive reports
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 18, 2015, 05:57:55 am
Which might merit a warning.  Like if I was to call 666maslo666 a ****ing idiot.  I'd fully expect to get a warning for that, but not a ban.  Who gives a **** about doing it in reports no one except moderators can see?

But then again, merely criticising RSI moderators (http://i.imgur.com/shKCaRa.jpg) is grounds for (http://i.imgur.com/dq0b2cK.jpg) a 10-year ban (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/citizens/Seria). 

You may get banned even if you didn't say anything on RSI. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wleb1/what_in_the_verse_is_going_on_in_the_rsi_forums/)

Heh, if RSI mods saw this thread, they'd probably ban me.  That's an amusing thought.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 18, 2015, 06:39:05 am
Now that's funny, I remember Seria dropping into E:D thread on RSI forums periodically to claim SC's superiority, last person I would expect to be banned there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2015, 07:51:51 am
Everytime I see a link to that rsi reddit I see nothing but extremely loyal white knights commenting on stuff with massive upvotes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 07:59:28 am
banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Really...

And mine didn't even have bad language in them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2015, 08:04:35 am
You really have to appreciate the skilled camera work in the ~seamless planetary transition~ that hides all the limitations of their system.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 08:54:42 am
Which might merit a warning.  Like if I was to call 666maslo666 a ****ing idiot.  I'd fully expect to get a warning for that, but not a ban.  Who gives a **** about doing it in reports no one except moderators can see?

*Puts on moderator hat*

Calling someone an idiot in a forum post would likely get you a warning, post moderation or a posting ban depending on how often you've done it before, what provocation was in the thread prior to your post, and how severe the insulting was. Calling someone an idiot in a post report would probably not get you any action at all because that's private.

The whole reason for that is in order to stamp out flaming before it get started. If you call someone names publicly, you're going to the one who gets in trouble for it because we don't want them feeling that they have to respond in kind. If you do it in a report though, only the mods and admins are going to see it so as NGTM-1R says, we don't mind a little venting when it's justified. That said, don't start composing particularly foul reports based on that. :p


banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Really...

And mine didn't even have bad language in them.

We did explain at the time that you got into trouble for severe overuse of the report system to the point where you, one user, were generating a large percentage of the reports on this forum. Reports that by and large were worthless especially given that you didn't seem to understand the forum rules well enough at the time to not be the person that the majority of the other reports were about. No one is going to get in trouble for using the report system as it was designed. Abuse of the system on the other hand.....
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:07:12 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 09:10:25 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.

Then PM him. If you're going to drag your dirty laundry into public, don't complain when people point and laugh at your skidmarks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:12:06 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.

Then PM him. If you're going to drag your dirty laundry into public, don't complain when people point and laugh at your skidmarks.
I can't. He has forbade me from PMing him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 09:27:20 am
Then don't use the forum as your person PM outbox. Seriously Lorric, you've been doing well for months now, don't start up this **** again over an issue everyone else has long forgotten about. Let the topic go back to Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 09:33:44 am
And just for the record? Any answer you'll get from me will just be a copy/paste job of what Karajorma just said.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:38:37 am
Then don't use the forum as your person PM outbox. Seriously Lorric, you've been doing well for months now, don't start up this **** again over an issue everyone else has long forgotten about. Let the topic go back to Star Citizen.

Well The E will still talk to me on the forum, and people were discussing moderation in a Hard Light context. But I'm happy enough to let the conversation go back to Star Citizen if that's where people want it to go.

I never thought I'd ever hear you say I'd been doing well at anything.

And just for the record? Any answer you'll get from me will just be a copy/paste job of what Karajorma just said.

So do you want to talk about it? Or would you prefer to just leave it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 10:12:17 am
There is nothing to talk about.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2015, 02:28:57 pm
But I'm happy enough to let the conversation go back to Star Citizen if that's where people want it to go.
Well, yeah. Duh? I'm not even sure what you were trying to accomplish by trying to hijack this thread with your personal issues. (And no, don't answer that)
Not to tell the Moderators their job, but maybe split the unrelated few posts off so we can go back to bashing SC in peace?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 03:12:44 pm
Are you serious? No decent forum will ban people because they used any language to insult other members. What's the difference between calling someone an idiot or a '****ing idiot'? Internet discussions are pretty normal and so is 'vulgar' language, you don't just hand out bans for that.

Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 18, 2015, 04:05:17 pm
It really isn't. You'd get a friendly notice at best and a warning at worst. Definitely not a ban.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 18, 2015, 09:09:58 pm
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

You haven't figured out yet that there's a difference between public and private expression, I see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 11:45:16 pm
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 19, 2015, 02:26:40 am
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.

I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 19, 2015, 02:31:21 am
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

So you want people to be banned for using language you disapprove of in messages a normal user would never read.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 19, 2015, 02:52:13 am
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.

I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

If it's not in the rules, it's not justified:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/86002/forum-rules-moderator-responsibilities-updated-10-18-15
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 19, 2015, 03:15:20 am
Guys you just don't get it.  It doesn't matter what CIG do, it's a good thing.  No matter what.  Anything that seems bad will be promptly reinterpreted so it's always been the plan and it's always been good.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?
It's not censorship because censorship is bad and CIG just wouldn't do something bad.  You're just being a troll and/or impatient.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 19, 2015, 03:38:37 am
Guys you just don't get it.  It doesn't matter what CIG do, it's a good thing.  No matter what.  Anything that seems bad will be promptly reinterpreted so it's always been the plan and it's always been good.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Oh we're all fully aware of that.
And ironically, CGI is seriously one of the most money grubbing games I've ever seen in my life.

Blatant whale hunting with absurdly priced ships
Pay-to-win "alpha testing" for a game which isn't free
Free to fly weeks and temporary REC progression to promote and incentivize buying of ships
Optional subscription service
Microtransactions for credit and other crap

Basically they use every trick in the book to try and get money out of their players. In an ALPHA test. And the idea that they're "Testing the game" and yet most of the games content is locked to most players most of the time is absurd.  How the **** do you test content when said content is only flown a small percentage of the time?


Funniest thing is when people say that the game should be better than it is, people tell you it's "early development". If you ask them how two-three years after the kickstarter is early development, they'll compare their game to GTA V or Fallout 4. If you talk about gray boxing or the wanton waste of replacing models they'll say you don't know anything about game dev. They've said that all the ships will be unlocked for Arena when some Baby PU comes out, but it's a sure thing I think that the PU will have some sort of mechanic in place to incentivize people buying better ships.


And the funny thing is. Star Citizen is being built through the use of projected funds. It is literally being funded while in what is essentially early access. Under that light, Star Citizen's development isn't comparable to Fallout 4 or the Witcher 3, but instead it's comparable to Space Base DF9.  And if the money stopped today, you'd probably see the same result.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 19, 2015, 06:44:51 am
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

So you want people to be banned for using language you disapprove of in messages a normal user would never read.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?

I dislike it when government or public institutions do it (or forums that claim freedom of speech is their important aspect). Other private forums such as RSI can censor whatever they want. Also, bans due to insulting language are not politically motivated at all, it is just common decency. As I said, such language may be acceptable on 4chan or reddit, but not on official gaming forums.

RSI forums rule number 8:

Quote
8. Don’t abuse the flag system. The flagging system is here to point out any posts that may be breaking the forum rules. It is not here to make fun of a moderator’s ruling or insult other members. Do not use harsh language in your flag description and do not flag posts simply because you disagree with another member. Do not reflag a post. Each flag is reviewed and often flagged posts require no action. Flagging posts that are older than 1 month will take lower priority than recent posts.

The ban was clearly justified.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 19, 2015, 06:45:37 am
Was that rule in place before this incident?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 19, 2015, 10:49:26 am
Also I hate to be That Guy, but moderation is basically volunteering to throw yourself on the grenade of whatever vulgarity, porn, and creepy the internet can toss up.

The idea you're pushing is at its core that the moderators are entitled, just as the regular forum goers are entitled, not to have to deal with that stuff. This is directly at odds with their task of reviewing any questionable content that appears to determine if it is that stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Firesteel on December 19, 2015, 03:48:50 pm
Even if you are a company, censoring your forums can still reflect badly on your practices. If there starts to be censorship of any critical opinions, then there is a problem regardless of if you are a government or a company. See Jim Sterling and Digital Homicide for an example if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 19, 2015, 04:53:29 pm
Censoring vulgar language for a supposedly mature game aimed at old school space sim fans also seems kinda stupid. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nintendo forums here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: zookeeper on December 19, 2015, 05:27:07 pm
Censoring vulgar language for a supposedly mature game aimed at old school space sim fans also seems kinda stupid. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nintendo forums here.

That sounds backwards though. If I had a forum intended for mature audiences, I'd want to discourage/censor vulgarity so that the atmosphere actually stays mature, whereas if I had a forum for kids then I'd maybe want to be more relaxed as to not drive away all the kids. :wtf:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 19, 2015, 09:02:26 pm
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 19, 2015, 09:37:16 pm
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.
I agree with this mother****er.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 20, 2015, 05:03:12 am
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.

Strangely enough there are lot of communities that manage to have both, a mature atmosphere and a lack of profanity ...

Even more strangely, it is even more common in real life and especially in professional environments. Well, over here anyways.


Seriously ... profanity has nothing to do with maturity, you motherf***** :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 20, 2015, 06:06:39 am
Profanity or lack thereof has nothing to do with maturity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 20, 2015, 07:22:37 am
So continuing the '****ty cockpits' thing we had going a while back, this is the cockpit of the Freelancer:

(http://i.imgur.com/VdCqbF8.jpg)

I'm so immersed, i can feel it trickling down my nose
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 20, 2015, 07:27:22 am
Yeah, one of my main complaints with Elite is just how much space you have to see all the time, I'm glad SC isn't making the same mistake.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2015, 07:34:05 am
(http://i.imgur.com/yKmnk4Q.jpg)


I look forward to 666maslo666 explaining to us how the Freelancer cockpit is actually really good and we're all wrong and/or trolling for saying it's bad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 20, 2015, 08:20:49 am
I hope Cobblers was being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on the SC forums.

Why are they even doing this? Are they trying to hide performance issues?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 20, 2015, 08:35:10 am
I hope Cobblers was being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on the SC forums.

Why are they even doing this? Are they trying to hide performance issues?

There are *some* ships with good visibility ... so can't be that.

My money would indeed be on a misguided wish to create "immersion".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 20, 2015, 08:51:06 am
The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2015, 09:04:16 am
I think it's sarcasm because of the name Christo_Roberto, but it says a lot about the community that you can't be sure.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 20, 2015, 10:29:14 am
That cockpit reminds me of the Adder from ED. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKOVGPefKlg

Personally, I'm not particularly bothered by having some unnecessarily restricted cockpits, but I think we already had that discussion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 20, 2015, 03:58:16 pm
I look forward to 666maslo666 explaining to us how the Freelancer cockpit is actually really good and we're all wrong and/or trolling for saying it's bad.

Nah, usually I am fine with claustrophobic cockpits but that Freelancer cockpit is too much. Needs windows on top.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 04:08:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

Take a look at the 90-100m Starfarer and the Cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatZFnSyj48
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2015, 04:17:12 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

Take a look at the 90-100m Starfarer and the Cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatZFnSyj48

Hey, there actually are windows on top! But the bezel between them and the main window is very thick, so you cant see them from the seat.

Freelancer is not a combat fighter but when 2/3 of cockpit view is covered by solid walls, then it is just too much in any ship, IMHO. Adding another window wouldnt hurt.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 21, 2015, 04:44:33 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

No, it's not. It's a space truck. Do you know what RL trucks have? Excellent visibility, because drivers do need to see where they're going.

And that's before we start talking about the needs of a spacegame. One of those needs is to show space, not dashboards. There is, imho, no excuse for cluttering up the screen with cockpit geometry beyond the bare minimum (go back a few pages, we had a discussion about the way SC is wasting screen space there). For ****'s sake, I'm playing these games in part because of the awesome visuals they can generate, I want to see nebulae and suns and stars and planets, not bloody dashboards all the time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 21, 2015, 05:21:09 am
The main problem is again that none of that blocked-out space has anything interesting in it. It's all just grey panelling. Maybe if it had some HUD elements attached it'd be more forgiveable but as usual the HUD just kind of floats in front of the player unanchored.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 08:51:28 am
Because this was fun to do last time:

(http://i.imgur.com/YeAs82X.png)

That's an impressive amount of useless pixels.  The Adder doesn't even come close.  At least on the Adder, most of the parts of the screen not showing outside are used for HUD.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:12:49 pm
I looking Forward to my 890J and its Bridge :P

(http://i.imgur.com/sjh2I11.jpg)

Thats a view!
It is a Little big larger ^^ About 140m now
(http://i.imgur.com/VdYxLJB.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 12:16:39 pm
How much did you pay for those jpegs of a ship that doesn't exist?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
600 Dollar :D

Wait when its done ;) Besides the Idris the best armament, armored and fastest ship (like the Reta) and can carry 2 P72 and the 85x or 2 M50 ;)

Chris says even a single Retaliator is no threat to it. But if a Reta wing comes in or worse - a Idris I should flee. No prob. Because the Idris is much slower then the 890J :P
Has a add. Battle Bridge for Command & Control or Electronic Warfare.

Overall 7 turrets. Battle armed luxury Yacht :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 12:28:50 pm
Command and Control and Electronic Warfare, huh?   Cool.  So how are those gameplay mechanics going to work?  Tell me about them.



But seriously, you realize no one here is going to be impressed by your 600$ jpeg, right?  Unless you're on RSI, paying that much money for a nonexistent ship in a nonexistent game is not something to be proud of.

You could have bought one whole table from CIG's furniture supplier with that money!  And it would have been better spent because at least you'd have something tangible, not just a jpeg.

And there's something incredibly awkward about that ship design.  Can't put my finger on it, but it looks wrong.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2015, 12:38:17 pm
600 Dollar :D

Wait when its done ;) Besides the Idris the best armament, armored and fastest ship (like the Reta) and can carry 2 P72 and the 85x or 2 M50 ;)

Chris says even a single Retaliator is no threat to it. But if a Reta wing comes in or worse - a Idris I should flee. No prob. Because the Idris is much slower then the 890J :P
Has a add. Battle Bridge for Command & Control or Electronic Warfare.

Overall 7 turrets. Battle armed luxury Yacht :D
My favorite thing about people buying the jpg's is just how much fun they seem to be having. Not by playing the game, but by imagining having fun with it Someday.
And they get so jolly and excited about all the promised features and equipment that they might get to experience Someday.
Also what the **** is a P72 and 85x?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:53:02 pm
Hmm I don't know, but I Play it. For example with the Reta Bomber or the Connie :)

http://abload.de/img/screenshot00068ukfi.jpg
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0060o6kto.jpg
Crew :)
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0037uskvr.jpg


This is the P52 Merlin. Size is around an X-Wing with 12m. Can only operate with bigger Ships with Hangar.
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0020mck09.jpg
The P72 is the 4 Laser Version and the 85X Comes with the 890J. Two Person shuttle
http://i.imgur.com/ksKBY2L.jpg
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2015, 12:54:08 pm
So this is how CiG stays afloat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 01:01:14 pm
Deathsnake: you talked about Command and Control and Electronic Warfare addons for the 890.  Tell me about how those are going to work in gameplay terms!  I'm dying to know.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: EatThePath on December 21, 2015, 01:01:40 pm
All those RSI logos and 42s, are those something you chose to put on your ships or is that just an immutable part of the package?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 01:05:24 pm
Nah, those aren't customized because they don't have the design document for ship customization done yet.  Two weeks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: EatThePath on December 21, 2015, 01:14:51 pm
Intending to make ships customizable and putting out this many 'finished' ships without having customization implemented already is... I thought I had grasped the depths of SC's foley already, but evidently I was wrong.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 01:42:45 pm
The 42er Logos on the Aegis ships is why they are in SQ42 SP-Campaign. The other Logos on the ships for the Manufactorer like RSI, DRAKE, MISC, AEGIS, ANVIL, ORIGIN and so on stays.  We can get later own logos for our Orgas. But they are not hurry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvogk1i9jeQ
And two more of my JPEGS ships are Hangar ready and soon flight ready :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 02:08:13 pm
You know, kinda like you see Boeing and Lockheed Martin logos all over USAF planes.  That's a thing, right?

Deathsnake why won't you tell me about EW and C&C gameplay?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: OneOneThree on December 21, 2015, 02:09:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/VdYxLJB.jpg)

It looks like a caricature of an angry duck. More evidence that no amount of details can save the big picture. The concept has to stand on its own, without one million polygons. A lot of SC ships seem to have this issue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 21, 2015, 02:37:12 pm
It's disgusting that RSI charges $1000's for hypothetical ships. It's even more disgusting if it turns out to be a scam... which seems likely.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 02:49:44 pm
Like I've said before, I don't think it's a scam.  I do think CR wants to build a good game, but he's held back by the fact that he's incompetent.

He's like George Lucas: He really tried to make the prequels good and had all the tools to do it.  His problem was that past success and gross overestimation of his abilities led to him ignoring the advice of people who really did know better.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 21, 2015, 03:38:37 pm
I hope you're right. His business practices make me doubt his good faith.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2015, 05:37:04 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 21, 2015, 06:02:23 pm
Yea, probably. Especially if it was proven that they were taking thousands of dollars of people's money for arguably little progress.

That being said, it blows my mind that someone would spend $600 on a ship for a game that doesn't exist yet. I could buy an entire FPV quadcopter setup for that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2015, 06:08:15 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?

Free projects hosted on this site vs. a for-profit game hosted elsewhere? Apples and pre-ordered pictures of oranges.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 21, 2015, 06:10:09 pm
How about Wings of Dawn

This level of hostility against Wings of Dawn was briefly institutional. Your memory's a little short here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 07:13:55 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
I must have missed the part where BP and WoD took one hundred million dollars from people and were a year late in actually delivering a game with no release in sight.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 21, 2015, 08:33:38 pm
Oh don't worry. We've got you covered.

(http://lazymodders.fsmods.net/axemart/WoD/wingsofcitizens.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scourge of Ages on December 21, 2015, 08:49:04 pm
(https://2982-presscdn-29-70-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CKid on December 21, 2015, 09:31:27 pm
omg Axem, you made me laugh so hard that I started choking. +1
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 21, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

I was plenty hostile with WiH's rage-inducing story.
It was tolerated . . .for a few pages of "discourse".

Like I've said before, I don't think it's a scam.  I do think CR wants to build a good game, but he's held back by the fact that he's incompetent.

There's nothing incompetent about their business practices.
You don't charge 2500 dollars for a ship by accident. You do it deliberately. Their entire alpha test is deliberately designed to get money from their players.

Is the game a scam? Who knows. Are they scamming their players? Hell yes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2015, 10:43:48 pm
Is the game a scam? Who knows. Are they scamming their players? Hell yes.

I'm going to have to agree with Aesaar on the first part. CR really does seem to want to produce an amazing game at the end of this process. I agree with you about the second part though. SC has gotten to the point where the people behind it know it can only ever be what they claimed it would be if they can keep the money rolling in. And the only way to do that is at the expense of the players. That's why we're seeing ships that were supposed to be on sale only once, going back on sale. That's not for the good of the players at all. If something was a promised exclusive, one time only, sale they'd stick with that if they thought promises to the players were the most important thing. But it's not the most important thing any more. Keeping the money rolling in so that the wheels don't come off is most important, even if it means going back on earlier promises.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:24:42 am

That being said, it blows my mind that someone would spend $600 on a ship for a game that doesn't exist yet. I could buy an entire FPV quadcopter setup for that.

It does not blow my mind. I would not do that because $600 is a relatively lot of money for me, but how about someone who earns so much that the marginal utility of $600 for him is as low as marginal utility of $60 for me?

And I think its a little dishonest how people imply that its only the ship that gets bought here, its obvious that no virtual ship alone has such a great value - the purpose of those pledges is primarily to fund the development of a game you are looking forward to. The ship is just a nice perk in addition to that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2015, 05:33:49 am
Do you really think that many people would be donating 600-1000$ if it weren't for the promise of exclusive ships with fancy-sounding gameplay mechanics(Coming SoonTM).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 07:36:38 am
Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 08:09:28 am
Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.

This does not prove anything. You need to pay sales tax if you provide any product as a reward. This is more about what the state considers sale/donation, not what CIG or backers consider it, or about the backer motivations for buying the ships (which is the topic here).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 08:25:46 am
Do you really think that many people would be donating 600-1000$ if it weren't for the promise of exclusive ships with fancy-sounding gameplay mechanics(Coming SoonTM).

Yes. Such high donations are not exclusive to Star Citizen. There were many other crowdfunded projects where individual people donated larger amounts - because they are rich, can afford it, and want the project to succeed, not primarily because they want the reward for their high donation tier (the rewards for higher tiers are always far below the value of donated money - just like with SC). Its their free decision, and if they can afford it, why should I complain? More money for development means better game for me in the end. So, thank you "whales" for funding the game! :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 08:29:28 am
CIG clearly consider it selling a product, given that they throw the word sale around all the time.  Concept sale, anniversary sale, Christmas sale.  You don't need to have a sale if all you're asking for are donations.  And if people were backing purely to donate, you wouldn't get so many people hyped about concept sales or whatever.  "It's a donation" is what people say when they try to excuse CIG's money-grubbing (like you're doing now), and when they try to rationalize their purchases to themselves.

You and I both know CIG would have never raised anywhere close to this much money if they hadn't been selling ships.

For a studio so proud of ditching "evil publishers", they're more focused on money than any publisher I've ever seen.

More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Not actually true, as we've explained earlier in this thread, but whatever.  You're not going to understand any better if we explain it again, so I'm not going to waste effort doing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 22, 2015, 08:32:57 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 09:34:25 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 22, 2015, 10:23:05 am
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.
I don't know if it's physically possible to facepalm as hard as this statement deserves.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 22, 2015, 11:00:38 am
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.

...I'm going to go with "you've never even been part of a project here on HLP" as the only possible mindset that could produce this sentence.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 22, 2015, 11:05:34 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2015, 01:46:58 pm
Oh don't worry. We've got you covered.

(http://lazymodders.fsmods.net/axemart/WoD/wingsofcitizens.png)
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/WoD/Misuzuseal3_zpsvrkhrmqs.png~original)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:38:36 pm
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****

You are proving my point. Daikatana was not that bad in itself, it was just suprassed by other FPS games by the time it was finally released. It was likely a better game in the end than if it was released as originally planned, with the old engine, assets and all (just not better enough). So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.

Contrary to FPS, Star Citizen is a game of a niche genre with not much competition, so I am not afraid of the same fate, SC can likely take several years delay without anything similar but better coming along. But even if it happens - someone delivering on SC promises sooner than SC - it would be only good for us players (and not possible without the hype SC generates about the genre in the first place).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:56:40 pm
Freespace itself is another example. The development of Freespace Open happens at a snail's pace compared to games with professional studios behind them. Yet 15 years later its still the best space sim game available. Comparing a game of a most popular genre developed during the time when progress in such computer games was probably the fastest with current situation in space sim games is dishonest (fringe genre, practically no competition, at a time when progress has slowed down so much that 5 year old games still look good). Daikatana was surpassed by games such as Quake III and Unreal Tournament by the time it was out, but what is going to be the Quake III or Unreal Tournament of Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 22, 2015, 03:10:27 pm
At the current trajectory, real life.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 22, 2015, 03:12:52 pm
(http://www.talkweather.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rimshot.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 22, 2015, 03:14:53 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a totally open MMO persistent open-world space sim/FPS hybrid free for all game? Nothing this decade probably. In fact if Star Citizen goes under, it'll probably scare off anyone from undertaking this sort of project again.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a space sim only (which is what a lot of people were hoping for to begin with)? Elite, No Man's Sky, Enemy Starfighter, the wealth of other small indie space sims that crop up every other month.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 22, 2015, 03:16:40 pm
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****

You are proving my point. Daikatana was not that bad in itself

lol

Daikatana was terrible, and the developer's insistence on scrapping, rebuilding, and swapping engines to try to catch up to other games being built at the same time is  a classic example of scope creep. It would've been a better game, delivered sooner, if it had stayed in scope.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 22, 2015, 03:26:59 pm
Daikatana "not that bad"? Compared to what, exactly? Random FNAF knockoffs on Greenlight?

Seriously though, Daikatana may not have been that bad taken on its own merits, but when looked at in light of its developer pedigree and marketing campaign? It was an utter disaster. The same will be true of SC, if/when it releases and isn't better at doing spaceflight than Elite, better at doing story than FS, better at being an MMO than WoW or EvE. It has to be the Best Damn Space Sim Ever, it cannot ever be mediocre.

But mediocre it probably will be. That's the trajectory the game's currently on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 22, 2015, 03:46:24 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.
Not to mention that everything FSO has done has been after release enhancements and bug fixing, as well as being done on no budget. We have finished games; released over a decade and a half ago, even.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 22, 2015, 05:08:31 pm
We have a man arguing with a straight face that a game where your sword blocks half your view, the CENTER HALF of your view, is "not bad".

I suppose given the cockpits we've seen that kind of makes sense actually.

Still.

Holy ****. Somebody close the thread, lock it here. Encapsulate this one perfect, timeless moment of madness for us that we may gaze upon it in awe and confusion forever and ever, amen. On the sixth day, as God was about to create the concept of insanity, he looked across time to this moment, and did a slow clap, and stopped. "You can't stop now!" complained a random angel. "You've only made the bones of the dinosaurs!" And the Almighty shook his head and replied. "Nope, I'm done. Can't top that."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 22, 2015, 05:29:35 pm
fire breaks out at cig headquarters; eyewitnesses report last seeing chris roberts driving a golf buggy loaded with cocaine into a concealed falcon 9 heavy; nasa radar installation vectors launch towards alpha centauri

666maslo666 asked to comment, reports that he is 'still happy waiting'
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 22, 2015, 05:36:30 pm
I know he's since topped it, but this particular comment needs to be highlighted too.

Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.

This does not prove anything. You need to pay sales tax if you provide any product as a reward. This is more about what the state considers sale/donation, not what CIG or backers consider it, or about the backer motivations for buying the ships (which is the topic here).

So if the idea of the ships is that people just love the game and want to see it made, and aren't buying ships, why would they be willing to pay sales tax on a donation when they could just donate it and have all the money go to the makers of the game?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 22, 2015, 07:16:54 pm
Ever heard of Axanar? The Star Trek fan film project.

As a fan-made project based on Star Trek, they are not allowed to sell merchandise that infringes on Paramount's IP nor are they allowed to sell their product.

Instead they have a "Donor store". Donate 10 bucks to the film, and then buy whatever through that store including miniature-games based on the Axanar property.

Now you can call them "donations", but it's a store. They're selling products. Both physical and digital.

So similarly, technically spending 2500 dollars on a promise of a ship is a "Donation" but it for all intents and purposes it is a purchase from a store. The player is buying DLC, they're buying an advantage over other players, etcetera.

To characterize it in any other way is to either be pedantic, delusional or dishonest.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 22, 2015, 09:54:25 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a totally open MMO persistent open-world space sim/FPS hybrid free for all game? Nothing this decade probably. In fact if Star Citizen goes under, it'll probably scare off anyone from undertaking this sort of project again.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a space sim only (which is what a lot of people were hoping for to begin with)? Elite, No Man's Sky, Enemy Starfighter, the wealth of other small indie space sims that crop up every other month.

Why not Elite: Dangerous?

You know what I'd buy? A new Independence War.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on December 22, 2015, 10:20:47 pm
I'm still waiting for this WOWZERS OPEN-WORLD EVERYTHING! phase to pass so that I can finally get a good, tightly-scripted singleplayer experience again.  Squadron 42 might have been my best bet at it, but not with this overall cluster****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 22, 2015, 10:50:46 pm
Squadron 42 will not ever be the place to go for a good singleplayer experience if what they've released of the writing is indicative of the product as a whole.

So far it's been pretty standard CR fare, but more like Freelancer than Wing Commander, so you know, historical elements largely uprooted and plopped into space instead (Vanduuls, for example). Unlike how Homeworld used historical allusions to strengthen the story it wanted to tell, Squadron 42 uses whole parts of history for the singular purpose of reliving that history but in space.

The "Oldman" character (actor is Mark Hamil instead of Gary Oldman because they ****ed up) is basically an archetype copy-pasted with "Oldman" substituted in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 10:53:54 pm
It will literally never get better than maslo's last two posts.  SC on HLP has peaked.  It will never reach such dizzying heights again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 22, 2015, 11:00:11 pm
John Romero already made Maslo his *****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 22, 2015, 11:44:31 pm
[quote author=666maslo666 link=topic=90080.msg1808489#msg1808489 date=14508167
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.[/quote]

That's not something you can prove. It's speculation. Based on no facts whatsoever.

http://www.salon.com/2002/01/02/ion_storm/

A question I might ask, do you think a game is better by 9 core members walking out mid-project?
Do you actually believe that such an event would better a project? That such an environment where an event like that took place would produce the best game possible?

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 23, 2015, 01:10:57 am
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.
OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 23, 2015, 02:40:43 am
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.
OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.

You can only be outmatched by competition if there actually is a better competition. If no one except Romero made FPS games better than Doom at the end of 90's, Daikatana would be praised as a great innovative game after release, pushing the boundaries of the genre and gaming in general. Or look at Minecraft, all things considered, its a pretty mediocre game with a lot of wasted potential - the concept is great and unique, but the execution is lacking. I can easily imagine far better game based on the same concept if it was programmed as an AAA game, with a modern native engine and appropiate budget from the start. But since no one expect them attempts to do the same thing better, they have monopolized the market to great success, despite their lacking implementation and slow development.

RSI know they can take their time because nothing similar but better is coming along, and likely wont be for a long time. They also have so much money that they can afford some feature creep and delays. It would be a waste to not to use that money to make the game better, when they can.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 23, 2015, 02:44:22 am
Except Daikatana is mediocre at best and not worth a replay. Doom still has some of the tightest level design in an FPS. It's just a much better game than Daikatana.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 23, 2015, 03:44:33 am
Given the recent boom in space games, I wouldn't be surprised if by the time SC comes out, there will be some fairly good competition, E:D certainly seems to be headed this way from what I read. And again, quality is not just about the amount of money you have, how you use that money is much more important.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 06:29:03 am
RSI know they can take their time because nothing similar but better is coming along, and likely wont be for a long time.
I'm not sure on what basis you can draw this conclusion.
- E:D is a pretty damn solid competitor on the open-world spaceship side.
- FSO has been superior for a decade and a half to anything SQ42 could ever hope to achieve from what we know about their progress and chris' general approach to storytelling
- Pretty much any FPS since the 90s is superior to the direction SC's FPS is heading. SC isn't even remotely close to achieve what something like AFF does in term of FPS/space hybridization.

You can't combine a bunch of mediocre (to put it lightly) parts of game and hope it'll make a great game. SC tries to do everything, and fails so hilariously at every single thing it does (aside from convincing people to pay for jpegs) it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 23, 2015, 06:57:21 am
- FSO has been superior for a decade and a half to anything SQ42 could ever hope to achieve from what we know about their progress and chris' general approach to storytelling

Yeah, I'm (incredibly) biased, but I've never been worried that SC was ever going to steal Diaspora's thunder. Yeah they have a good graphics engine but I'd be immensely surprised if they were going to be able to use it to do anything remotely close to what I've already done in missions, let alone the stuff I have planned.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2015, 07:15:21 am
Did maslo have an aneurysm and forget all the competition SC has?  I mean, I know ignoring reality is a very common ability among SC fans, but claiming other games in the same genre don't exist is pushing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 07:30:49 am
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 23, 2015, 08:57:10 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.

Where SC wins, and where it makes it seem like it's the only game in town, and how it builds people up like maslo, is in its marketing.

Saying FSO is a "competitor" to S42 is like saying a (and excuse me for the obscure comparison) Reprap http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/thumb/7/71/Reprappro-Mendel.jpg/500px-Reprappro-Mendel.jpg
is a competitor to a Dremel Idea Builder https://3dprinter.dremel.com/sites/default/files/styles/dremel_popup_image/public/features/Genesis_2_0.jpg?itok=EKTbWI1L. One is a packaged product with technically less capabilities but a solid marketing base behind it and (in the case of the Dremel) a professional team designing and assembling it (with more reliability as a result). The other is a DIY kit that may have more capabilities but is also a lot fussier.

Technically, the two are competitors, but only for a relatively small subset of the population. For the vast majority, it's not, because one is a DIY approach and the other is a packaged product. Their marketbase is a Venn diagram, where in the middle are the modders and tinkerers and generally obsessed fans, like all of us, that are willing to put together such an old game and try it. Most of the people backing SC, at this point, I would imagine have never even heard of FS2, let alone played it, and I think many of them would point to Freelancer as their "last cool space game" (this is my personal experience, gathered from talking to people who are "into" space games - a lot of them don't know about FS2 and list Freelancer as the last space game they played).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 23, 2015, 09:23:05 am
The point of mentioning FS2_Open was not to claim it was a competitor but to show how easily something could come along and beat the crap out of SC. It wouldn't require anything that hard to make. A professional game company could probably make a product that was like FS2_Open in a year. All it would take is for some big name in gaming to come out as a fan of space sims, express their disappointment in SC and start up a kickstarter while promising to kick the **** out of feature creep.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 09:35:35 am
Hell just look at Strike Suit Zero. The non-suit flight model and the complexity of missions is pretty much comparable to FS2, it's a pretty recent game, and it's a better space shooter than SC on all accounts, and would probably beat SQ42 on plot and mission design by a significant margin. This already exists, it didn't need 80M to exist, and it already beats SC on some of its most important features.

SC is not in competition with everything, it's already superseeded by everything. It's obsolete before it's even made it past rough alpha stages.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 23, 2015, 10:01:40 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 23, 2015, 10:44:13 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.

A) No need to get personal.

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it. Heck, you're assuming they even know FSO exists.

C) Have you looked at the FS2 control screen recently? Compare that to...heck, any other game. It's pretty daunting for a beginner, especially someone used to easier control layouts like in an FPS. Even then, Strike Suit Zero is simpler to get into. Just because the installation process is simplified doesn't mean everything else is. But, I take your point: FSO is easier to get into now that you don't have to piece it together. Now, do you get my point - that comparing an open source game with lots of different options for how to take it (FSO install, BP install, Diaspora install, lots of controls from a time when games were much more complex, having to understand what the FSO even is, etc) to a clean studio game (which I'm not saying SC will be) is not a very fair comparison. It's a bit like apples and oranges, etc.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 23, 2015, 11:00:28 am
No Man's Sky is scheduled for a June 2016 release date.
Is Star Citizen coming out before then? Doubt it.

So that will be at least two games, ED:H and NMS which are out before Star Citizen and competitors.
If one wants to compare SQ42 to ED:H and NMS, well other games have already been out in that genre as mentioned.

I don't consider FS:O a competitor to anything current.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 11:02:08 am
Even though you certainly have a point about FSO's ingame control interface (but damn E:D ain't any better if not worst), this is partly why I brought up SSZ as a good example of solid, modern space shooter that manages handily to outperform SC, assuming SC development continues going in the same direction and with similar design choices and organization as we have seen so far.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Familiar on December 23, 2015, 11:34:16 am
FSO is not a competitor for ED or SC. It's ridiculos to even think of it :)
Because FSO is still waaaay better mission based space combat sim then anything nowadays. It's a Game with a Soul, immersive and fun. I've never played original FS or FS2, but played original wireframe Elite. I respect Braben, especially for his socks photo :) and support ED by buying both ED and Horizons, but what I really dream of.  Freespace: Dangerous if you wish, based on Cobra engine, but moddable.
As for Star Citizen ~ it is both funny and sad to see all the fans saying SC is so superior game without knowing what it eventually become. Now it is in so ridiculous state, some demo made of **** and sticks, even Chris is frustrated by trying to play with it. Not to mention his HOTAS allergy :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 23, 2015, 12:05:53 pm
I think some folks are getting a little confused about why FSO was brought up.  The point I believe Matth and Kara were bringing up are the implications that some big budget Supercar may not deliver an overall better driving experience than a 68 Mustang fastback some folks modded up in a garage for fun.  Not that SQ42 and FSO are in any sort of meaningful competition, one's a commercial product and the other a hobby.  Star Citizen's success or failure is not going to be impacted by the existence of FSO.

That said if the 68 Stang beats the pants off some commercial SNAFU the garage tuners have every right to be smug.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 12:16:20 pm
Basically what we're saying is that better options already exist right now than what SC is going to become - with reasonable estimations based on the current state of things, their previous progress and their announced plans.

SC's scope covers gameplay from a lot of existing game genres, and although I wouldn't reasonably expect a game of this large a scope (even though CIG and the fans do) to have the best gameplay ever on each and every of its many parts, I would at least expect and require each part to be at least decent and vaguely enjoyable when taken separately. A reasonable estimation of SC's future wouldn't even bring the quality of these parts close to mediocre, let alone good.

For example, comparing SQ42 to FSO and SSZ is relevant. Even in the best of circumstances I wouldn't expect SQ42 taken on its own to surpass either of those, because SQ42 is part of a larger project and the interactions between the different parts implies sacrifices to make the whole game work - but I would expect it to be decent and somewhat enjoyable on its own. However, in the reasonable expectations of SC we have laid out before, SQ42 is looking to turn out horrendous, both in term of gameplay quality, depth and storytelling. The same can be said for each of the parts SC is made of (persistent universe, FPS, etc).

I hope this clarifies things. Basically even by lowering our standards to something coherent with the compromises a game with this large a scope will always be forced to do, we just can't reasonably expect - based on what we know and what we can expect to happen in the future - any part of SC to reach acceptable levels of quality and enjoyability. Let alone be the Best Damn Game Ever.

And that is comparing SC's parts with _existing_ games, not the games that will be released by the time SC comes out, assuming it does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 23, 2015, 12:50:28 pm
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.

I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 12:51:32 pm
Did you actually read my last post? I've already addressed this.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2015, 01:30:58 pm
CR's genius is that you can think of anything you want in a game, and SC's going to be **** at it.  Focusing on a few things and doing those really well is so last gen.  Truly next-gen games are all about having the most diverse assembly of **** possible.

Freespace 2 is just a really good space sim, but SC is a ****ty space sim AND a ****ty FPS, all in one package!  That's just better.

Number of features is more important than quality of features.  Think about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 23, 2015, 04:10:13 pm
A) No need to get personal.
What?

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it.
I am going to get a bit personal here, because you are being down right weird. Where are you getting this from? Where in my post have I argued or 'assumed' anything of this?
Again though, you are outdated. The majority of mods are selectable options in the FSO installer. It's a simple click away from adding one. Also, you are argueing that the vast majority of space sim fans are oblivious of what a mod is. I find this unlikely, the majority of the PC gamer user base is most likely familiar with the term.

Heck, you're assuming they even know FSO exists.
Where the **** are you even getting this from? I didn't argue against or for any of that, I didn't even mention any of that. The only thing I have done is simply correcting you that installation of FSO is really ****ing simple nowadays.

C) Have you looked at the FS2 control screen recently? Compare that to...heck, any other game. It's pretty daunting for a beginner, especially someone used to easier control layouts like in an FPS. Even then, Strike Suit Zero is simpler to get into. Just because the installation process is simplified doesn't mean everything else is.
Again this is some weird ass tangent that you are going on about here. Are you okay? I haven't said a single thing about the controls or anything.
And I do agree that Freespace has a huge amount of redundant controls, and I vastly improved the default keybinding layout for it in Wings of Dawn.

But, I take your point: FSO is easier to get into now that you don't have to piece it together. Now, do you get my point - that comparing an open source game with lots of different options for how to take it (FSO install, BP install, Diaspora install, lots of controls from a time when games were much more complex, having to understand what the FSO even is, etc) to a clean studio game (which I'm not saying SC will be) is not a very fair comparison. It's a bit like apples and oranges, etc.
I still don't know why you are even directing all this ranting in my direction.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 23, 2015, 06:39:15 pm
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.

I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.

#1 Squadron 42 is a separate game. This is one of the campaign promises they broke. They're selling it separately.

As for games where you can land on a planet, build ships, fight together, board the enemy, etcetera, these games already exist:

Sorry to tell you but you're not in love with a game. You're in love with the idea of a game. And when that game comes out, you will be disappointed. Unless the game is crafted and linear, the type of experiences you crave will be few far and in-between.

What you want is basically a scripted, action-packed sequence out of Call of Duty but you want it in a completely random, MMO world.
It won't happen. The two ideas are diametrically opposed. You'd have more luck with that sort of experience in a Call of Duty, Halo or Dead Space type of game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on December 23, 2015, 06:50:51 pm
What kind of game exactly is S42 going to be?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2015, 07:03:18 pm
Movie.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 23, 2015, 08:09:23 pm
Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.

If you're willing to accept the parts being ****ty cause the experience of the whole will be better, the game you want already exists. Ironically enough it was made by Derek Smart.

The rest of us however believe that a collection of ****ty games still results in a ****ty game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on December 23, 2015, 08:18:08 pm
I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.
There's a very good reason that no one has done this before: generally speaking, trying to mash a bunch of disparate genres together into a cohesive whole is a really bad design idea.  I mean, you do realize that perhaps the biggest irony of Derek Smart coming out swinging against CIG was that he himself tried (mostly) unsuccessfully to build a similar game for more than a decade, right?  We literally have a common expression for this concept: "Jack of all trades, but master of none."  It's why no photography enthusiast would be caught dead relying on an iPhone camera, or no legitimate programmer would be caught dead trying to code on said iPhone, or--can you tell I hate smartphones yet?  Point being that every new major mechanic you toss into a game is going to make the whole project exponentially harder to be a cohesive final unit.  Do yourself a favor and count how many of the most well-crafted games ever made have tried to dabble in a bunch of genres at once.  It'll be an extremely short list.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 23, 2015, 09:04:42 pm
What kind of game exactly is S42 going to be?
Whatever your imagination wants it to be.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: RangerKarl on December 24, 2015, 12:50:05 am
In my head it's a visual novel-style game where the actual majority of it lies in dialogue with your crewmates, who may end up becoming friends...or something more. Then aliens come and bite their heads off in front of you while you're in the mess or something.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 24, 2015, 05:06:57 am
There's a very good reason that no one has done this before: generally speaking, trying to mash a bunch of disparate genres together into a cohesive whole is a really bad design idea

No, it is a bad design idea only if you do not have resources to pull it off. Which is usually the case, because it is ambitious. There were multiple games that have attempted to do what SC attempts to do in the past. They were almost all amateurish games done by a single guy or a small amateurish team. That is the main reason why they were boring and bland. You just cannot compare games like that to an AAA product. Instead of Derek Smart games done by a single guy, look at game such as SWG. That is what Star Citizen will likely resemble. Not a perfect game, but a solid and fun game. One that does indeed fill a hole in the market of current spacesim games.

I mean, we are on a forum for Freespace mods. So it is only natural that there is plenty of modders here, and as such people here see every game development through the lenses of a development of an amateurish game mod, where feature creep is an everpresent mortal danger and resources are scarce. But triple A game development is different, especially when it is as well funded as SC is. Feature creep and resources are not the limiting factor. If there is a limiting factor, it is time and attracting the right people.

Blending FPS and spaceflight mechanics is totally doable and it can be done well, too, with AAA quality. Thats what SC is about.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 24, 2015, 06:29:13 am
I mean, we are on a forum for Freespace mods. So it is only natural that there is plenty of modders here, and as such people here see every game development through the lenses of a development of an amateurish game mod, where feature creep is an everpresent mortal danger and resources are scarce. But triple A game development is different, especially when it is as well funded as SC is. Feature creep and resources are not the limiting factor. If there is a limiting factor, it is time and attracting the right people.

... Except people here have pointed out numerous games that were arguably destroyed by feature creep. And again, having resources is not the issue here, it's using these resources efficiently. I believe that with the resources it has accumulated, a game like SC can be a great, well put together game, without even having to throw out too many features. However, the way SC's development has gone so far casts serious doubts regarding their ability to deliver such a game.

It's not so much that it can't be done, it's that they can't do it.

Best case scenario : we get Freelancer 2.0, a nice game that leaves you wanting due to the obviously half-implemented features, but nonetheless enjoyable (and moddable).
Worst case scenario : the whole project collapses and we never get a finished product, only a bunch of playable modules and some nice concept art.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 24, 2015, 07:14:49 am
In my head it's a visual novel-style game where the actual majority of it lies in dialogue with your crewmates, who may end up becoming friends...or something more. Then aliens come and bite their heads off in front of you while you're in the mess or something.

Chris Roberts bravely follows in the footsteps of Spoon combining VN and Space Sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 24, 2015, 07:39:11 am
It's not so much that it can't be done, it's that they can't do it.
Exactly. CIG has demonstrated time and time again ever since the kickstarter that they are utterly plagued by mismanagement, awful design/ gameplay decisions and more than a tendency to make promises they can't or refuse to keep. And it's only getting worst the more time passes, the more money they accumulate and the larger their teams and scope grows.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 24, 2015, 09:00:14 am
In my head it's a visual novel-style game where the actual majority of it lies in dialogue with your crewmates, who may end up becoming friends...or something more. Then aliens come and bite their heads off in front of you while you're in the mess or something.
So, you just want Muv Luv then?  :p

Chris Roberts bravely follows in the footsteps of Spoon combining VN and Space Sim.
I should charge royalities.

I mean, we are on a forum for Freespace mods. So it is only natural that there is plenty of modders here, and as such people here see every game development through the lenses of a development of an amateurish game mod, where feature creep is an everpresent mortal danger and resources are scarce. But triple A game development is different, especially when it is as well funded as SC is. Feature creep and resources are not the limiting factor. If there is a limiting factor, it is time and attracting the right people.
It's funny how proudly you tout your ignorance on the subject.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 24, 2015, 09:40:03 am
I have worked AAA development. Feature creep is a far bigger problem there, and they are much more strict about staying on scope and cutting features than any mod.

You are really ignorant.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 24, 2015, 10:17:04 am
If anything, CIG management is far more amateurish than pretty much every mod that ever released something playable with 0 funds.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 24, 2015, 10:23:46 am
Idk about that Matth, BWO did release a playable demo.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 24, 2015, 10:24:59 am
Thanks for proving my point.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 24, 2015, 11:06:35 am
Who really needs to combine FPS and Space game mechanics into a single game?
Boarding actions in space combat is like boarding actions in mid-air.

People are trying to combine "realistic" space combat with age of sail boarding actions. They're two incompatible ideas.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 24, 2015, 11:14:26 am
They're trying to. The main idea is that the space game being viewed in the eyes of a person the player is controlling. Aside from flying a ship, you can explore a ship, fix things, shoot bad guys, and explore planets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 24, 2015, 11:19:04 am
I'll say this for CR: he's a marketing genius. That's the only way I can explain people's blind faith in him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 24, 2015, 11:30:58 am
If he was only making a combination of FPS and Space Sim he'd end up with a better version of SWBF2's space battles.
Thing is, games that combine vehicular and FPS combat usually heavily simplify the vehicle mechanics to make it more accessible to FPS fans. Plane and tank 'simulation' in Battlefield is hardly in-depth and most flight sim fans wouldn't play it for that. Have you ever really wanted to leave your ship in Freespace to do some on-rails turret shooting or first-person combat? Why even bother when flight mechanics are so fun?

Aside from the 'novelty' value of a space sim with FPS combat I see no reason to leave your spaceship if the flight mechanics are fun or no reason to get in one if they're awful. Problem with SC now is that all combat is awful and there's no real reason to play it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 24, 2015, 11:52:32 am
It's necessary, to improve upon the space-combat superseding FPS mechanics, if FPS forms the core of the gameplay itself.

For the VR part, the users can experience what it's like to be inside the real cockpit of their ships in Freespace. They are able to see freely around themselves inside the cockpit. They will need to think about how to take down enemies while looking behind them, and react on the fly. This includes not only flying, but also doing some on-rails turret shooting or many other forms of first-person combat (e.g. repelling boarders or boarding other ships).

Someday, I'll outline these ideas in my game design for my project about this.

Any word on Derek Smart's plan to sue Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 24, 2015, 01:00:43 pm
I'll say this for CR: he's a marketing genius. That's the only way I can explain people's blind faith in him.
He isn't though.  Managing customer expectations is an important part of marketing, and CIG have completely failed to do that.

Any word on Derek Smart's plan to sue Star Citizen?
Nothing but hot air, just like CIG's plan to sue The Escapist.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 24, 2015, 01:36:20 pm
I have worked AAA development. Feature creep is a far bigger problem there, and they are much more strict about staying on scope and cutting features than any mod.

Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.

On the other hand, Star Citizen has no such pressure and thus it can take its time to really blossom without cutting too many features and actually do things right. Even if it means it will take 5 years instead of 2 and cost over $100 million instead of $20 million. As I said, people did not pledge for Star Citizen to be yet another space sim like all the other such games. They pledged for this game to push certain boundaries.

Besides, its not like Star Citizen ignores the dangers of feature creep. It is why stretch goals ended at $65 million and for example procedural planets were not included in initial release. Star Citizen as currently envisioned is ambitious but doable. It just cannot be rushed.

2016 is going to be a big year for SC. With the release of 2.0 there are no longer separate modules and the basic engine is almost done, not the focus will be on adding content and features on top of it and bug fixing. You just wait..  :yes:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 24, 2015, 01:41:47 pm
HOLY ****, THEY'RE ALMOST DONE ON THE BASIC ENGINE AFTER 4 YEARS?! Obviously we're all idiots for doubting this project!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 24, 2015, 01:58:11 pm
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.
Ah yes, we must have missed Bungie having a small budget. Surely that is the only cause for any problems. Battuta doesnt know jack****, you clearly know better. Your ignorance is almost insulting now.

You just need more time and money, that will surely produce excellent games! Just wait everyone! Starcitizen will be amazing if we just wait another 4 years with another 90 million.

Quote
On the other hand, Star Citizen has no such pressure and thus it can take its time to really blossom without cutting too many features and actually do things right. Even if it means it will take 5 years instead of 2 and cost over $100 million instead of $20 million. As I said, people did not pledge for Star Citizen to be yet another space sim like all the other such games. They pledged for this game to push certain boundaries.
That's not what I pledged for at all. But its nice to see you speak for everyone with your grand delusions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 24, 2015, 02:42:10 pm
On the other hand, Star Citizen has no such pressure and thus it can take its time to really blossom without cutting too many features and actually do things right. Even if it means it will take 5 years instead of 2 and cost over $100 million instead of $20 million. As I said, people did not pledge for Star Citizen to be yet another space sim like all the other such games. They pledged for this game to push certain boundaries.
That many people are trying to get refunds (so many that CIG is now refusing to give them) makes it pretty obvious that this isn't a universally agreed-upon thing.  Maybe you should stop trying to speak for everyone?

Speaking for myself, I was far, far more excited about SC when it was less ambitious and more achievable.  I don't want a dream.  I don't want a movie.  I want a game.

Quote
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.
So what AAA games have you worked on?

Quote
Star Citizen as currently envisioned is ambitious but doable.
Doable?  Probably.  Doable by CIG?  No.  This sort of ambition requires competent management and an extremely clear idea of what the game is supposed to be, and CIG do not have either of these things.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 24, 2015, 03:00:00 pm
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.
All the time and money in the universe won't save SC as long as they don't have organisation, make ****ty gameplay design choices and have horrendous management. Those are the real problems, and I can only observe that you keep avoiding them, just like CIG and SC fans always keep avoiding the real issues.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 24, 2015, 03:18:16 pm
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.

Yes, those evil producers that force the developers to cut features and ship games, they certainly are a scourge of the industry. How dare they demand a return on their investment! The sheer nerve!

Yeah, it's much better to not have investors but believers. Believers, after all, do not need to see milestones reached, deadlines fulfilled or products shipped; it's much easier to develop games when noone asks for such silly things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: EatThePath on December 24, 2015, 03:46:15 pm
Personally I think it's telling that many of the lasting classics of video games were developed under harsh limitations, and often being freed from those limits ended up in crazy overreach that smacked hard into the new limits and produced a much more flawed product. And SC has budgetary limits, this funding well will eventually find a bottom. What happens if SC needs 10 years of this and only gets 8? Do you think the half finished compromise you get then will be worth the hundreds or thousands of dollars people have paid for it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 24, 2015, 05:15:10 pm
I have worked AAA development. Feature creep is a far bigger problem there, and they are much more strict about staying on scope and cutting features than any mod.

Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.

Bigger budget than Star Citizen, more time, no publisher pressure, and creative carte Blanche.

You are doubly ignorant, and you are persistently ignorant of expertise on nearly every topic you try to engage with. You contribute nothing except for a chance for others to learn when you're corrected.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 24, 2015, 07:34:00 pm
Just a warning to keep it civil please.

Battuta, this isn't directed at you, or at anyone in particular. This thread is amusing so I'd like to keep it open, just please remember that there are people on the other side of the screen. :)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on December 24, 2015, 08:24:19 pm

Besides, its not like Star Citizen ignores the dangers of feature creep. It is why stretch goals ended at $65 million and for example procedural planets were not included in initial release. Star Citizen as currently envisioned is ambitious but doable. It just cannot be rushed.

Just to clarify, Star Citizen never released. I will elaborate in a bit on that.

2016 is going to be a big year for SC. With the release of 2.0 there are no longer separate modules and the basic engine is almost done, not the focus will be on adding content and features on top of it and bug fixing. You just wait..  :yes:

See, what you call 2.0 I would rather call 0.2. It is a product that is not complete yet. A preview, not a release. What do I mean by complete? And what do I call a release?
I support and love to death a in-the-making game called Factorio [if you by any chance enjoy creating systems that work on their own, with a little bit of survival and exploration, totally check this out]. It is not a finished product right not. It is currenty in version 0.12. I am following it since 0.9. For this entire period of time, with every release, it has been a complete project. Not a finished one, but complete. Resource gathering, tech proression, base building, logistics, fight mechanics, endgame goal, they were all there, fully functional and allowed for intended-scale gameplay. I've spent like 90+ hours on 0.9 release, and had a very satisfying and stable experience. A complete single-player experience. Obviously not finished, but honestly they could just release it as a full, but smaller, game right there. Now contrast it to what SC is right now. They couldn't possibly release it now. It is not playable. It is a preview. Not saying you can't have fun with it, it's just that it is nowhere near being acceptable as a product. So lets stop calling it a "release" and lets call it a "preview" instead.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 24, 2015, 10:10:54 pm
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.

What gameplay is Star Citizen advancing? It's just one game with multiple game types. It's not revolutionizing gameplay, nor even evolving it, it's simply putting multiple game types together.

Further developers aren't pressured to release half-baked games ASAP.
They're pressured to release complete games on deadline.

The problem with SC, is that the idea of a complete game is ever evolving and they have no deadline.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 25, 2015, 02:47:01 am
What gameplay is Star Citizen advancing? It's just one game with multiple game types. It's not revolutionizing gameplay, nor even evolving it, it's simply putting multiple game types together.

Further developers aren't pressured to release half-baked games ASAP.
They're pressured to release complete games on deadline.

The problem with SC, is that the idea of a complete game is ever evolving and they have no deadline.
Just like open source games, in this case here, FSO.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 25, 2015, 03:11:31 am
Again, as pointed out before, that's a false equivalency.  FSO isn't a commercial product.  No one pays or is paid to develop it.

To quote Battuta:
Apples and pre-ordered pictures of oranges.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 25, 2015, 03:12:08 am
Just like open source games, in this case here, FSO.
No, FSO is about upgrades and improvement upon an existing functional game. SC doesn't have anything remotely close to a functional game, and I doubt it ever will.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 25, 2015, 04:04:19 am
See, what you call 2.0 I would rather call 0.2. It is a product that is not complete yet. A preview, not a release. What do I mean by complete? And what do I call a release?
I support and love to death a in-the-making game called Factorio [if you by any chance enjoy creating systems that work on their own, with a little bit of survival and exploration, totally check this out]. It is not a finished product right not. It is currenty in version 0.12. I am following it since 0.9. For this entire period of time, with every release, it has been a complete project.

It is called Star Citizen Alpha 2.0. That is below Star Citizen 1.0. It is not complete yet, nor does it aspire to be.

And I fail to see this need to release something complete when the development is still ongoing. Why do you complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only less than 3 years of development?

Vast majority of games do not release anything to the public until the game is more or less done.

And entitled gamers like this (no offense) are the reason why.

Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it. Star Citizen does release playable content, but at the same time SC makes it clear that it is heavily WIP, incomplete and buggy. Thats how you do it, the best of both worlds. Too much stability too early is an enemy of effective development.


Do you think SC is not being developed well? Fine, only higher ups ultimately know the truth about that, and we will see sooner or later what the end result is. But complaining that they have not released the game yet just makes you look like you are being impatient and ignorant of game development. They can take their time. There is no need to rush at all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 25, 2015, 04:34:29 am
It is called Star Citizen Alpha 2.0. That is below Star Citizen 1.0. It is not complete yet, nor does it aspire to be.

And I fail to see this need to release something complete when the development is still ongoing. Why do you complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only less than 3 years of development?

First of all, because the vast majority of commercially released games took less than 3 years and less than 100 million USD to complete. This is our complaint 1: Because the scope has increased immensely over the years, there was never any chance of them nailing down even a single core mechanic. The Arena Commander release should have been the endpoint of getting the flight dynamics done, not its beginning, to pick one example.
2: We know that getting a 40 mission single player game takes about 3 years to develop from scratch, and that doing so would have solved a lot of problems SC currently has. This is complaint 2: Roberts' priorities seem to be to get as much of the game done at once, when it would be more prudent to fully finish one or two aspects of it for a release and then build on it. Elite follows this approach, and as a result, it's far more successful than SC (Seriously, Elite sold a million copies last year.)
3: SC's business model is atrocious. It combines the worst aspects of kickstarter and F2P culture (From kickstarter, exploiting people's willingness to buy into a promise, from F2P, the overt reliance on a small number of whales to bring in the dough), and as a result, you have a community of useful idiots who are acting like a publisher except without the ability to exert influence over the development of the product that publishers normally have. This is complaint 3: SC's business model is built on continually promising development; actual delivery of things is actively harmful to the business model.

Quote
Vast majority of games do not release anything to the public until the game is more or less done.

And entitled gamers like this (no offense) are the reason why.

You seem to believe that putting out horrifically buggy pieces of **** is good development practice. It isn't.

Quote
Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it. Star Citizen does release playable content, but at the same time SC makes it clear that it is heavily WIP, incomplete and buggy. Thats how you do it, the best of both worlds. Too much stability too early is an enemy of effective development.

And while SC is doing this, they're continually putting their ability to pull off the full game they have promised into question. Every single thing they've released so far has put their technical skills into question. The game should be getting better. It isn't. With every release, they're just increasing bug counts.


Quote
Do you think SC is not being developed well? Fine, only higher ups ultimately know the truth about that, and we will see sooner or later what the end result is. But complaining that they have not released the game yet just makes you look like you are being impatient and ignorant of game development. They can take their time. There is no need to rush at all.

Again: The SC backers are performing one part of what a publisher normally does, but are not afforded any of the priviledges publishers normally have. We do not have any veto right over management decisions. We do not have sign-off on features. We do not have insight into detailed project progress. Just like people generally misinterpret the work editors and publishers do in the literary world, gamers generally misunderstand the role of publishers; While they can be toxic, they more often than not are crucial to getting a game to a releasable state.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 25, 2015, 04:39:35 am
Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.
I didn't think one could die of laughter. I came pretty close today.

EDIT: you'll note how I said in my previous post functional, as opposed to finished. For example, BP: AoA in 2009 was a functional release. BP as a whole is still not finished.

Nothing SC has given us was even remotely functional. It's a buggy mess that only gets worse as time goes.



But none of this diminishes the hilariousness of saying finishing products is bad.

At least you're not denying that SC is a horrendous buggy mess, so I guess we're making some sort of progress here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 25, 2015, 12:33:10 pm
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.

No.

Quite the opposite.

You've got the entire process of the enemies of feature creep backwards.

The primary obstacle to going absolutely bat**** insane for a little developer, like us, is that we don't have the resources. Short of total self-delusion, it's difficult for us to do so, because we need only look around our little hovels on the internet to return to reality. There are things beyond our power. It's obvious.

For a man in an office controlling legions of coders and artists who cater to their every whim, who when they tell the peons to make something happen then it happens, there is no obstacle to going bug**** insane save those they impose on themselves culturally. Big productions must hate feature creep as they hate pain, fear, and budget cuts, because that hatred is their only defense. There's no obvious limits on what they can do to return them to reality before the creditors show up and take everything.

Battuta was a part of Destiny, one of the largest game productions in the last decade, and one of the most troubled, and is here laying the law, and you're over here with a mentality that suggests you've never even been a beta or alpha tester for a serious project acting like you know ****. Sit down and shut up.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 25, 2015, 01:00:19 pm
Exactly. Question one in any normal software project is "Can we afford to spend time and money on a feature?". Sometimes, the answer is "Yes, because we must." Sometimes, the answer is "Yes, we can afford to, but we don't need to." And sometimes, the answer is "No, not without compromising on other important things."

For Star Citizen, and the useful idiots who continue to throw money into this bottomless pit, the answer is always the first one. This is not a recipe for a good game. It wasn't for Daikatana, it wasn't for Duke Nukem Forever, it won't be for SC.

maslo, the people in this forum have worked on games, as amateurs and professionals in some cases, or on software projects, or on similar endeavours. Some of us have even had the misfortune of having experienced SC-style mismanagement ourselves, or have through inexperience caused these issues ourselves. You keep claiming this is a case of us being impatient. No. This is us seeing parallels to projects that have failed, in some cases spectacularly so, and us being exasperated about the true believers like you who seem willfully ignorant of what is going on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: zookeeper on December 25, 2015, 01:34:53 pm
I never thought so many people would so enjoy arguing about whether a video game will be good or bad that they'd actually want to keep doing it for what looks like hundreds of posts. :eek2:

I think it's kinda funny... but not in a bad way, of course! Please continue. :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on December 25, 2015, 02:02:33 pm
I never thought so many people would so enjoy arguing about whether a video game will be good or bad that they'd actually want to keep doing it for what looks like hundreds of posts. :eek2:

I think it's kinda funny... but not in a bad way, of course! Please continue. :D

Word.

(http://cdn.meme.am/images/11111122.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 25, 2015, 02:10:43 pm
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on December 25, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
Part of me dislikes the notion that people spend so much time on a game that has not been released yet, but I must admit it has entertainment value.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 25, 2015, 03:41:02 pm
Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it.

A thousand games would gladly risk ending up like Minecraft, if by ending up like Minecraft you mean ludicrously popular and successful.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 25, 2015, 03:41:21 pm
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3545201.jpg)

SC has already been a source of much entertainment to me. I don't care if there will ever be a game. The journey there seems to be better.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 25, 2015, 08:57:49 pm
maslo, the people in this forum have worked on games, as amateurs and professionals in some cases, or on software projects, or on similar endeavours. Some of us have even had the misfortune of having experienced SC-style mismanagement ourselves, or have through inexperience caused these issues ourselves. You keep claiming this is a case of us being impatient. No. This is us seeing parallels to projects that have failed, in some cases spectacularly so, and us being exasperated about the true believers like you who seem willfully ignorant of what is going on.

It's worse than that though. Without people like Maslo, CIG would be feeling pressure to actually get something released that was playable. They would have to cut back on their dreams and release something that wasn't attempting to be the most perfectly realistic space sim ever, but instead was a good space combat game.

But with all their cult members shouting down anyone who points out that they are doing things wrong, they can continue doing what they are doing. And the result is that SC will almost certainly spectacularly fail to be what they want if it ever comes out at all. They're basically their own worst enemies.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Firesteel on December 27, 2015, 05:29:20 am
As the project lead on a bullet hell/6DOF game, feature creep is something I've already had to begin to clamp down on, even after just coming out of prototyping. As one of my software engineering professors says, new features are shiny and designers like shiny objects. In my experience, producers (and leads at times) need to be able to say no to features and that hasn't happened with CR and SC.

maslo, the people in this forum have worked on games, as amateurs and professionals in some cases, or on software projects, or on similar endeavours. Some of us have even had the misfortune of having experienced SC-style mismanagement ourselves, or have through inexperience caused these issues ourselves. You keep claiming this is a case of us being impatient. No. This is us seeing parallels to projects that have failed, in some cases spectacularly so, and us being exasperated about the true believers like you who seem willfully ignorant of what is going on.

It's worse than that though. Without people like Maslo, CIG would be feeling pressure to actually get something released that was playable. They would have to cut back on their dreams and release something that wasn't attempting to be the most perfectly realistic space sim ever, but instead was a good space combat game.

But with all their cult members shouting down anyone who points out that they are doing things wrong, they can continue doing what they are doing. And the result is that SC will almost certainly spectacularly fail to be what they want if it ever comes out at all. They're basically their own worst enemies.
I agree. Instead of having a strict timetable (as in my case) or investors/companies worried about bleeding money, CIG has a legion of people throwing money and blind belief at them, allowing them to drink their own koolaid. As nice as dreams are, there needs to be something tethering them to reality, be it time and money or limits placed on a project through collaboration and CIG seems to have none of these limiting factors present.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rheyah on December 27, 2015, 01:25:17 pm
I should note:  the Vapourware Citizen debacle has taught me a lot about development that I probably should have known before getting started on my own Freespace 2 campaign.

It reeks of my own crappy development style.  As such, I never bought into it.  By direct comparison, Elite Dangerous is a technically less promising game, but has delivered vastly more content and as such has had plenty of play from me.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 28, 2015, 11:27:52 am
Me too. I got Elite Dangerous during my last birthday.

As for the Vapourware Citizen debacle, I just hope that this will be a lesson for game developers and modders alike.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 28, 2015, 12:00:21 pm
I'm curious, what lessons are you drawing from it, Bryan? Considering that you're planning to make "the biggest modpack ever"?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on December 29, 2015, 08:57:08 am
"the biggest mod pack ever" is in itself not a bad thing so long as there are clear project goals and feature creep is kept in check.  SC was always going to be a pretty ambitious project but because of the previous mentioned reasons the feature creep has gotten out of control which is the lesson Bryan See can take from this.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on December 29, 2015, 02:12:11 pm
Mods are different. People make mods because they enjoy making mods, not because they're trying to earn a living or need to give their customers a product they paid for. If you care about people playing your mod, sure, but that's not the whole story.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 30, 2015, 10:51:50 am
I hope it's not too off-topic. Scott Manley has released a KSP homage to (or an attempt to take the piss out of) CIGs planet video:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 30, 2015, 11:29:50 am
Hahaha
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2015, 12:14:10 pm
Scott Manley has gone from being super-excited about SC to posting in the SA thread.  It's great.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 30, 2015, 02:22:50 pm
The cultists turned on him really, really fast when he chipped in with a measured opinion after the Smart Heresy. It was pretty sad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 30, 2015, 07:28:15 pm
(http://deviance.duckish.net/pictures/cr_dead.jpg)

checkmate nerds
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on December 30, 2015, 07:36:37 pm
<snip>

checkmate nerds

 :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 30, 2015, 08:03:40 pm
This thread continues to amuse
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2015, 09:34:03 pm
Quote from: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=966#post454385811
The point at which SC is fully released as a ground breaking space simulation game, offering top quality dog-fighting with realistic Newtonian physics, full planetary exploration of high quality procedurally generated planets, all previously mentioned professions and character development implemented in a fun way, a fully functioning and balanced economy where piracy, mining, trading, passenger transportation, news reporting, auditing, exploration and all other gameplay types are fully viable and fun. Functional and enjoyable ship boarding mechanics, with FPS mechanics rivalling the latest generation of dedicated FPS games. All of the PU features fully supported in an offline mode as well as an online one. A lengthy and deep single player campaign. Every other promised feature that I have no doubt forgotten about, fully implemented in a fun and enjoyable way. All of this providing lasting enjoyment of at least 6 months to everyone, from those who have $30,000 invested to those who have just $30 without any feeling of pay to win advantage being given to those who paid more while at the same time ensuring that they do not feel as if they have been ripped off, in a universe of over a million concurrent players with battles involving 200 individuals or more.

SC's scope is so absurd.  If I hadn't been following this trainwreck since its inception, I wouldn't believe it was real.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 07, 2016, 09:06:11 am
An enterprising redditor demonstrates why you shouldn't design a game by making up numbers for JPEG sales brochures. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3zs2mt/its_the_economy_stupid/cyolmtc) tl;dr: CIG are selling superfreighters which will be able to undermine the planned economy of the game (and the revenue stream keeping the servers online) by 4 orders of magnitude. Bonus: watch fanboys try to fabricate new mechanics to work around the laws of economics!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on January 07, 2016, 05:33:29 pm
This email exchange between Sandi (and other CS people at CIG) and Beer4TheBeerGod is amazing. (http://imgur.com/a/BIlWu)  Long, but so worth it.

Best quotes (word-for-word):

"[...] for more than 3 years I have done the work of at least 6 people and I am a shrewd businesswoman with a lot of experience in business.  This project would not be here without me."

"I am one of the best saleswomen in the world beyond a shadow of a doubt and always have been since I was a very small girl."

"You want a **** game or do you want to wait?"

"You seemingly cooperated with [Derek Smart] to spread secret information gained by questionable means.  This could be construed as aiding and abetting corporate espionage."


You can tell it's a very professional company when the #2 person in charge is arguing with you over email, talking about how an amazing worker she is, saying the game as originally pitched would have been ****, and accusing nonbelievers of being 'butt-hurt'. 

Also accidentally confirming that things like the David Jennison letter (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/) are real.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on January 07, 2016, 07:17:28 pm
CIG / Sandi really should have avoided talking about everything outside the refund & support issues. I suppose offering a full refund is OK too, but asking "why not?"and then engaging with the response was a waste of time.

Real dick move to post the conversation without explicit permission though.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on January 07, 2016, 07:22:12 pm
Best quotes (word-for-word):

"[...] for more than 3 years I have done the work of at least 6 people and I am a shrewd businesswoman with a lot of experience in business.  This project would not be here without me."

"I am one of the best saleswomen in the world beyond a shadow of a doubt and always have been since I was a very small girl."

"You want a **** game or do you want to wait?"

As one of the best saleswomen in the world, Sandi is no doubt aware of the first rule of corporate communication: Treat everything you communicate to anyone as though it is being or will be scrutinized by the public.

Oh, wait.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on January 07, 2016, 07:41:28 pm
CIG / Sandi really should have avoided talking about everything outside the refund & support issues. I suppose offering a full refund is OK too, but asking "why not?"and then engaging with the response was a waste of time.

Real dick move to post the conversation without explicit permission though.

Yeah, almost as much of a dick move as threatening corporate espionage charges.

Oh, wait.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on January 07, 2016, 07:52:05 pm
CIG / Sandi really should have avoided talking about everything outside the refund & support issues. I suppose offering a full refund is OK too, but asking "why not?"and then engaging with the response was a waste of time.

Real dick move to post the conversation without explicit permission though.

Yeah, almost as much of a dick move as threatening corporate espionage charges.

Oh, wait.
Or banning someone for off-forum activity as well as them having criticisms.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 07, 2016, 07:53:19 pm
CIG / Sandi really should have avoided talking about everything outside the refund & support issues. I suppose offering a full refund is OK too, but asking "why not?"and then engaging with the response was a waste of time.

Real dick move to post the conversation without explicit permission though.

How far are you meant to stay silent about how bat**** insane these people are when they wrung out $105 million by promising a game they haven't and almost certainly can't deliver and are now refusing to refund backers who have noticed that?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on January 07, 2016, 08:16:21 pm
Real dick move to post the conversation without explicit permission though.

Why would the guy need permission? Unless there's some clause in the EULA prohibiting releasing these sorts of correspondence.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2016, 03:42:36 pm
*star trek iv whale probe screeches at the surface of planet Earth*

MR SPOCK: Captain, I believe the probe is in search of whales.

KIRK: Whales?

MR SPOCK: Star Citizen fans
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2016, 03:43:57 pm
preorder bonus. preorder now. shave flakes of ass dandruff off chris robert ass and we are crowdfunding them as a preorder bonus, new revolution in game development, unprecedented fidelity and immersion. put chris robert ass flakes on your ass
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2016, 03:49:01 pm
Big miscommunication, sorry guys. We definitely meant ass flakes. Early suggestions that this would be a g-pack of pure Colombian cocaine were a misunderstanding. Alas no refunds are available. Early buyers will still get a free re-up as promised
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on January 26, 2016, 04:40:36 pm
Drunktutta is besttutta?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on January 26, 2016, 05:34:55 pm
*star trek iv whale probe screeches at the surface of planet Earth*

MR SPOCK: Captain, I believe the probe is in search of whales.

KIRK: Whales?

MR SPOCK: Star Citizen fans

Does that mean they are going to stop Aesaar with a BoP and then stick Maslo in a plexiglass tub?

Will it still be in unreleased when they bring him to the future?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2016, 09:58:40 pm
So did they really commission another studio to make an entire FPS, pay them, get a nearly finished FPS, find it was completely incompatible with their game, and throw it out?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on January 27, 2016, 01:49:06 am
That is what has happened, yes (http://www.justagamemode.com/)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lepanto on January 27, 2016, 10:15:04 am
What I'm really interested in is how CIG managed to get this whole hype machine going in the first place. How DID they get this much enthusiasm and money behind a project that's repeatedly failed to deliver?

If responsible projects could use those methods to stir up a tiny fraction of SC's hype for themselves, it'd be a great marketing boon.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on January 27, 2016, 10:22:09 am
The initial enthusiasm wasn't too surprising, but the incredible momentum it's sustained has been.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on January 27, 2016, 10:41:00 am
What I'm really interested in is how CIG managed to get this whole hype machine going in the first place. How DID they get this much enthusiasm and money behind a project that's repeatedly failed to deliver?

If responsible projects could use those methods to stir up a tiny fraction of SC's hype for themselves, it'd be a great marketing boon.
Such as a certain someone making a certain game...  ;)

It's like Sushi says, the genre was dead and had been for many years, but the market for it most certainly wasn't. There was a burning desire for more, and Roberts had the brains to step into this gap in the market, but where the continued remarkable devotion from his backers comes from is a complete mystery to me. If he was still the only show in town I could understand it, but he isn't anymore.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on January 27, 2016, 12:41:59 pm
My understanding is that Star Marine was only ever promised as a standalone module (for the backers), not as a game in and of itself.
Though of course it was touted to be as good or better than similar AAA games.

Now roberts said basically 'you've already got what we promised in 2.X, you can run around and shoot stuff'
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on January 27, 2016, 01:20:11 pm
Now roberts said basically 'you've already got what we promised in 2.X, you can run around and shoot stuff'

He did not say that we already got what was promised. Here is his statement:

Quote
     "So yes it is still in the pipeline. I do actually kind of like to say something because I sort of get annoyed sometimes when I see this pop up in comments like “Oh Star Marine is cancelled or Where’s Star Marine!?” Star Marine was just a game mode for people to play the FPS elements of Star Citizen until we could combine everything together: Flying, walking around, shooting, doing all the rest of the stuff, all together, that is what is in 2.0, that’s what it’s 2.1.

    With SC Alpha 2.0 onwards, you have basically what we were planning to do from Star Citizen and from the very very beginning. If you could back and look at the original pitch we didn’t say “Hey we’re doing Star Marine,” We said we will have FPS and Board, well you have FPS and you have boarding right now and so what’s really happening is there will not be features that will only be for Star Marine outside a sort of competition match and scoring that isn’t going to be in the game and so we’re actually rolling out the FPS features.

    So 2.2 will have some more features on the FPS side and 2.3 will have some more and so on until we sort of what we consider the basic functionality. 2.2 has cover and some other things in it and we’ll obviously have future, there’s things like vaulting and sliding and different kind of stances that we have and there’s a lot more weapons that we have and they’re all getting rolled out and honing it and you guys are going to be able to play it in 2.2 and 2.3 and 2.4

    When we’ve got that basic set together we will sort of turn on the map for Star Marine because all Star Marine is, is a game mode. Basically allows you to play a game, have two teams, have some points and so you can just sort of have a Arena Commander style match, but for FPS. That’s useful for you to hone your FPS skills without sort of being in the mini PU and risking some other stuff, but you already have FPS in the game so it’s not like FPS got cancelled or anything like that.

    It’s definitely in and Star Marine was originally our idea of how to get people to play the FPS before we could put everything together, but since that obviously took longer than we expected to get FPS to the level that we are comfortable with. By the time we got it to the level we said ”Okay you guys can play this.” Well we already had all the other things combined with the Large World and the 64-bit coordinates and the zone system so that was it. So there you are, we will have Gold Horizon, we will have Star Marine, but that will come online once all the basic FPS features are out in and live in the mini PU."

Star Marine as a separate module will not happen, Star Marine is now being developed as part of core game, basic FPS functionality is already playable in Alpha, other promised Star Marine features will be be parts of future Alpha 2.x updates.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on January 27, 2016, 01:57:03 pm
Quote
In the span of only a few minutes, Chris Roberts introduces a revisionist fiction that completely contradicts literally hundreds of public statements made by him and other members of CIG and Illfonic over the course of the last year.
The citizens eat it up.

See you in the verse!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on January 27, 2016, 02:01:26 pm
We have never worked with Illfonic. We have always intended to throw out Star Marine. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Preorders are wise.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on January 27, 2016, 02:27:30 pm
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/3f8e9080bb45758a6b052a505b4479f3/tumblr_mwol8kSPJK1rkmjjzo1_500.gif)
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Preorders are wise.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on January 27, 2016, 02:36:46 pm
Quote
   So 2.2 will have some more features on the FPS side and 2.3 will have some more and so on until we sort of what we consider the basic functionality.

Quote
I do actually kind of like to say something because I sort of get annoyed sometimes when I see this pop up in comments like “Oh Star Marine is cancelled or Where’s Star Marine!?”

Quote
    When we’ve got that basic set together we will sort of turn on the map for Star Marine because all Star Marine is, is a game mode.

All the non-certainties in his speech are the mark of someone who's making it up as they go along.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on January 27, 2016, 02:43:46 pm
We have never worked with Illfonic. We have always intended to throw out Star Marine. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Preorders are wise.

+42
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 27, 2016, 06:02:32 pm
You know, between this and Trump, I'm pretty sure I've crossed into the Alternate Universe.

It's time to grow a *****in' goatee and practice my eyebrow-raise, I think.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on January 28, 2016, 12:04:06 am
Some cracks are appearing (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1514#post455515397) over one of Crobert's recent statements toward backers.

This could be it.

2016 might actually be the year Star Citizen bites the dust. The failure that keeps on giving could come completely off the rails relatively soon. And there are front-row seats for when the train wreck finally gets a-rollin'.

What a time to be alive.

Edit: Link for more context. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1517#post455518356)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on January 28, 2016, 03:41:42 am
And yet, the funding still flows in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2016, 04:03:20 am
It's like spice.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on January 28, 2016, 04:06:33 am
The jpgs must flow.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on January 28, 2016, 01:25:47 pm
Some cracks are appearing (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1514#post455515397) over one of Crobert's recent statements toward backers.

This could be it.

2016 might actually be the year Star Citizen bites the dust. The failure that keeps on giving could come completely off the rails relatively soon. And there are front-row seats for when the train wreck finally gets a-rollin'.

What a time to be alive.

Edit: Link for more context. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1517#post455518356)

Yeah this post, if true, is particularly damning:

(http://i.imgur.com/b9aliLw.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on January 30, 2016, 10:23:09 am
Access to the PU is free this weekend, if someone without a pledge really wants to test it for themselves. Even though I haven't encountered any crashes or very obvious bugs for first fifteen minutes (though a crash happened just afterwards), there's this overwhelming feeling of everything being held together by a duct tape and wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on January 31, 2016, 08:14:05 am
Edit: Link for more context. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1517#post455518356)

That SA thread is entertaining as hell, but it's growing faster than I can keep up with.
One strange observation is, that Derek can write coherent and sometimes outright funny posts if he is not in FULL RAEG!!!!111 mode.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on January 31, 2016, 12:49:11 pm
Edit: Link for more context. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1517#post455518356)

That SA thread is entertaining as hell, but it's growing faster than I can keep up with.
One strange observation is, that Derek can write coherent and sometimes outright funny posts if he is not in FULL RAEG!!!!111 mode.

This is most Goons, in my experience.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on January 31, 2016, 02:17:46 pm
Edit: Link for more context. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1517#post455518356)

That SA thread is entertaining as hell, but it's growing faster than I can keep up with.
One strange observation is, that Derek can write coherent and sometimes outright funny posts if he is not in FULL RAEG!!!!111 mode.
The thread moves insanely fast, I read like 10-15 pages, came back a day or so later to find this one funny picture... Only to find like 40 new pages were added. Entertaining indeed though.
And also yeah, Derek smart Derek smart DEREK SMART has really mellowed out with age. He has gathered a bit of wisdom with his greyhairs. I find his recent posts/blog/twitter good reads on this subject of scamcitizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on February 29, 2016, 10:07:07 am
Looks like that SA thread is behind a paywall now. Anyone know what's going on in it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on February 29, 2016, 11:02:23 am
Access to the PU is free this weekend, if someone without a pledge really wants to test it for themselves. Even though I haven't encountered any crashes or very obvious bugs for first fifteen minutes (though a crash happened just afterwards), there's this overwhelming feeling of everything being held together by a duct tape and wishful thinking.

This is every single game.  "polish" is just the process of hiding the tape. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 29, 2016, 11:36:43 am
e:d has held together on a basic physics and game feel level since its earliest prototypes
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on February 29, 2016, 11:56:25 am
Looks like that SA thread is behind a paywall now. Anyone know what's going on in it?
Aaaw, it was such a blast to read too :(
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 29, 2016, 01:04:10 pm
e:d has held together on a basic physics and game feel level since its earliest prototypes

E:D has simplistic flight model that does not even attempt to physically simulate forces acting on a spacecraft. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Also, in my subjective opinion, Star Citizen game feel, as a whole, is already superior to Elite: "aeroplanes in space" Dangerous. Even if Elite "physics" may feel more polished.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on February 29, 2016, 01:22:12 pm
The entire Games subforum seems to be paywalled now. It's a shame, too, it was one of the few places you could read something negative about SC without it being drowned out by vocal parts of the fanbase. I think the last significant event was banning of a goon from RSI forums for informing someone about chargebacks through the PM system.

This is every single game.  "polish" is just the process of hiding the tape. 

Maybe you're right, but it didn't feel like something easily fixable.


E:D has simplistic flight model that does not even attempt to physically simulate forces acting on a spacecraft. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Also, in my subjective opinion, Star Citizen game feel, as a whole, is already superior to Elite: "aeroplanes in space" Dangerous. Even if Elite "physics" may feel more polished.

I was interested in the 'physically simulated' aspect of SC at first, but the fact a Mustang or those Vandal fighters can fly in a straight line killed my faith in that. It's a shame, too, the potential (and limitations) of that approach were visible back in 0.8, when the Aurora was unable to yaw at high speeds due to IFCS freaking out. Besides, KSP already does that, there's nothing impressive in it. As for E:D's 'airplane physics', I'm guessing it could be easily fixable by changing some values in XML file somewhere.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 29, 2016, 01:40:06 pm
SA paywalls its forums periodically as part of its comprehensive suite of ingroup cultivation techniques, they'll open them up again eventually (long before CIG delivers on a promise, I'm sure).

star citizen's flight model attempts to simulate a shoebox with trackballs on the corners and it does it very badly
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 29, 2016, 01:59:53 pm
The only thing that's even remotely plane-like in Elite is the slow yawing. You don't have to worry about gravity, lift, stability, altitude, or pretty much anything that's a core part of plane sims. You have side thrusters and reverse thrust too.

And the limited yawing just makes dogfights interesting, as you have to match orientation with your target so you're on the same plane. Too bad the AI is pretty ****ty though...

Elite handling feels more polished because it was designed from the ground up to feel good to play, unlike SC which was designed to "simulate" and then they had to hack in actual gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 29, 2016, 03:06:19 pm
Limited yawing is what makes Elite flight model much more like flying a plane than a spacecraft. And it is annoying as ****. Instead of fighting the enemy, I am fighting the controls. For that reason alone, I prefer SC flight model over Elite.

As for general polish of Star Citizen flight model, it is much better than it was in the past. The days when your attitude spontaneously changed while merely strafing (lol!) due to unbalanced thruster responses are long gone. Right now its almost as polished as Elite, except faster and without the annoying yaw limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FW1FegvX_c
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 29, 2016, 03:15:50 pm
Limited yawing is what makes Elite flight model much more like flying a plane than a spacecraft.

It doesn't, stop pretending. That's 1 factor out of 30, but I guess you wouldn't know that if you never actually tried any plane sims.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on February 29, 2016, 05:09:16 pm
Did they manage to fix the massless ship issue (quite loud, relevant part starts at 0:36)?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on February 29, 2016, 05:18:42 pm
Limited yawing is what makes Elite flight model much more like flying a plane than a spacecraft. And it is annoying as ****. Instead of fighting the enemy, I am fighting the controls. For that reason alone, I prefer SC flight model over Elite.

As for general polish of Star Citizen flight model, it is much better than it was in the past. The days when your attitude spontaneously changed while merely strafing (lol!) due to unbalanced thruster responses are long gone. Right now its almost as polished as Elite, except faster and without the annoying yaw limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FW1FegvX_c

I felt that way when I started playing E:D too, but the more I played it the more I enjoyed the flight model. What really drives me nuts about E:D is just about everything except the flight model, but you're going to have trouble convincing me that SC is better. The only argument I can think of is that with SC there is no illusion of completeness.

And good god almighty, those sound effects are terrible.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 29, 2016, 07:14:03 pm
Did they manage to fix the massless ship issue (quite loud, relevant part starts at 0:36)?

if you look closely at the chat window you'll notice that our intrepid recorder's username is 'rommel88mm' and so this 'asshole glaive' is in fact a heroic antifascist crusader
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on February 29, 2016, 07:48:46 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FW1FegvX_c
Multiple things that bug me about this, the constant random things to take away the player's awareness, blur, desaturation, hdr brightness adjustment. How would this still be a thing 900 years from now anyway. Even that aside, it just seems like a ****ty idea from a gameplay perspective.
The other thing is that you barely get to see what the **** you are shooting at, so many times during that video he's shooting at this far away hud dot, whenever the ship comes back into view its only for a brief moment and it takes up like 30% of the area that isn't the cockpit at most. It just seems like frustrating gameplay to me.
And lastely, the sound effects are absolutely ****ing awful. Holy **** that's so bad.

The only thing it has going for it, that visually, it looks pretty nice. But hey, so does E:D.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on February 29, 2016, 08:30:07 pm
if you look closely at the chat window you'll notice that our intrepid recorder's username is 'rommel88mm' and so this 'asshole glaive' is in fact a heroic antifascist crusader

Well, you can be an asshole and still fight fascism (as documented in The Dirty Dozen).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: SypheDMar on February 29, 2016, 08:56:43 pm
You know, between this and Trump...
Oh my God, yes! On HLP, we see the same fanatics defending Chris Roberts against all reason like the Trump supporters worshiping Trump and his asshatery! It's hilarious terrifying WOW!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 01, 2016, 07:24:43 am

Thanks, maslo, for this video that perfectly demonstrates the fatal absence of skill and tension in Star Citizen's combat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on March 01, 2016, 08:11:50 am
Was that a specific test build meant to last five minutes or does it typically take that long to shoot up a single enemy? 

Its one thing if you have an extended dogfight because you're both skilled pilots and neither can line up a shot but seriously five minutes of pumping primaries into a target to kill them is bad game design.  I can kill a battleship with 203mm cruiser AP in less time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 01, 2016, 12:05:05 pm
Was that a specific test build meant to last five minutes or does it typically take that long to shoot up a single enemy? 

Its one thing if you have an extended dogfight because you're both skilled pilots and neither can line up a shot but seriously five minutes of pumping primaries into a target to kill them is bad game design.  I can kill a battleship with 203mm cruiser AP in less time.


 :confused:

e:d has held together on a basic physics and game feel level since its earliest prototypes

Virtually all spacesims bar a few exceptions don't use detailed physics and I find SC's attempt to use newtonian physics in a game that aspires to have a wide appeal (because spacesims were anything but niche at the time) to be outright silly, if I wanted something realistic I'd be playing Orbiter or DCS or whatever, for all their faults the people who made E: D at least understand that.

Limited yawing is what makes Elite flight model much more like flying a plane than a spacecraft.

It doesn't, stop pretending. That's 1 factor out of 30, but I guess you wouldn't know that if you never actually tried any plane sims.

Even I can tell that the flight model apart from limiting yaw is very similar in concept to the windows X-wing games where you had to always find a compromise between speed and manouverability during dogfights, when people told me it was like a plane I thought they meant like those demos of flightsims I got from the PCgamer CDs when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 01, 2016, 12:53:14 pm
Was that a specific test build meant to last five minutes or does it typically take that long to shoot up a single enemy? 

Its one thing if you have an extended dogfight because you're both skilled pilots and neither can line up a shot but seriously five minutes of pumping primaries into a target to kill them is bad game design.  I can kill a battleship with 203mm cruiser AP in less time.


 :confused:
Starslayer meant, but did not mention, in World of Warships. Which is a significantly slower game, and taking down the HP pool of a heavily armored battleship with 203mm guns takes a while. But still somehow takes less time than that star citizen dogfight.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 01, 2016, 01:15:33 pm
It's amazing how SC is so bad at communicating game state that you don't even realise the fight is drawing to a close until the opposing ship abruptly evaporates.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 01, 2016, 01:51:30 pm
Was that a specific test build meant to last five minutes or does it typically take that long to shoot up a single enemy? 

Its one thing if you have an extended dogfight because you're both skilled pilots and neither can line up a shot but seriously five minutes of pumping primaries into a target to kill them is bad game design.  I can kill a battleship with 203mm cruiser AP in less time.

Doesnt typically take that long in my experience. Anyway, longer time to kill is a good thing in a game like SC, where consequences of losing a ship are supposed to matter and dogfights are supposed to have significant tactical depth to them. You cant have that with an simplistic shooter where time to kill is like 1 minute, that would be bad game design.

Also, there is a bug in shield recharging making them recharge much faster than intended, which may or may not have something to do with TTK in this video..

Anyway, the flight model itself looks really sweet, which was what I wanted to demonstrate with the video. It already captures that BSG-like newtonian quality that is missing from many lesser space sims. So I remain hopeful..  :yes:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on March 01, 2016, 01:55:22 pm
Long TTK (in the sense of being able to tank a lot of damage) is fine for medium and large (multi-crew) ships but really doesn't work well for fast-paced dogfights. I'd hope that one of the benefits of flying a fighter instead of a big expensive ship is that the consequences of losing it in a fight are much lower, so you can afford to be more aggressive.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 01, 2016, 01:59:15 pm
5 minutes is still excessive. Freespace time to kill when you're unloading with everything you've got is like 1-5s depending on what you're shooting at, that's relatively fast. 20s is already long enough to be impactful and anything over 30s is just tedious for fighters.

This isn't dogfight time we're talking about, you can have long dogfights if the fighters evade each other but most of that video was 1 fighter shooting at another with little pause.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 01, 2016, 02:16:00 pm
There was lots of evading. If the other fighter wasnt maneuvering, then the fight would indeed be over in 15 seconds of sustained fire at most. It is the evading maneuvers that prolonged the fight to 5 minutes (and also the crappy aiming, lol).

30 seconds time to kill is maybe fine for generic cannon fodder but for more important dogfights it is way too low. Its like that mission in FS where you have to kill hordes of Anubii and then a Vasudan ace. It takes much longer to take down the ace than an Anubis, I dont think it would be interesting if it was over in less than 30 seconds.. and thats the style of combat SC should go for, IMHO
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 01, 2016, 02:33:39 pm
I wonder what it would take for the cult to lose faith. Nothing short of a statement from CR himself, I suppose.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 01, 2016, 03:33:12 pm
That's not really the problem, the problem is all that simulative flight model gobbedlygook, why make your pilot pass out from too many Gs?
That's completely retarded in this kind of game and this kind of universe and really awful when you play the game as any dogfight becomes a blurry mess even with the "safety whatever" activated.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on March 01, 2016, 03:49:46 pm
Yeah, CIG should throw out the entire concept of g-induced black outs, which, if rumours I've seen are true, will be experienced by the pilot, but not by passengers.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 01, 2016, 04:12:50 pm
What? The Ace will die in 5 seconds if you hit him with ML-16s and Furies.

And really, there was at least a minute of sustained fire there, it was definitely longer than 15 seconds of shooting. Whether it's shields recharging too quickly or simply being too strong a dogfight shouldn't take that long.

Is your self delusion so strong that you're distorting memories of other games so they fit in with your image of SC?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 01, 2016, 04:50:15 pm
It takes much longer to take down the ace than an Anubis, I dont think it would be interesting if it was over in less than 30 seconds.. and thats the style of combat SC should go for, IMHO

Five times one second is still only five seconds, genius.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 02, 2016, 12:29:36 am
What? The Ace will die in 5 seconds if you hit him with ML-16s and Furies.

Yeah, and you can maybe do that if he stays still, which he doesnt. So this is a meaningless number from a gameplay perspective.

Average time to kill when the other party is actually evading is what counts, and this shouldnt be too low for a game like SC.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 02, 2016, 04:15:05 am
Or, youknow, you can just stick to his ass within 50m and blast away, like in most Freespace dogfights. Evading doesn't matter when you're that close.

He flies a Seth, not some unbeatable superfighter. He has 280hp compared to 160 of the Anubis and you can gang up on him with your whole wing so he really goes down rather quickly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 02, 2016, 07:10:36 am
As usual maslo has entirely detached himself from reality, in which he linked to a video of one fighter almost continuously shooting another for five minutes straight despite whatever evasive action was taking place.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 02, 2016, 08:20:07 am
The thing that bugs me about the blackout/redout mechanic, besides the fact that with all the maneuvering your screen is just constantly fading in and out, is that it doesn't make sense. Real people can only take up to about 8 or 9 g's before passing out - and these are top notch pilots wearing G suits.

The maneuvers you're performing in Star Citizen are constantly at that range or higher, which, aside from explaining why the screen is constantly fuzzing out, also means that the player would be probably crushed from the inertia changes. But it bothers me that they nod to one point of the realism but not the other.

As for limited yaw in E:D, that's actually pretty easy to explain...very few of the ships have lateral thrusters. Not sure if you noticed it but most of the thruster locations are on the top and bottom of the ships, with very little on the sides, so...it actually makes sense that the yaw is limited.

I don't know if that's the actual reason for it (in the game developer's minds), but just from how the ships look, that's my explanation for it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on March 02, 2016, 09:43:39 am
In Elite's case the overriding reason is clearly "because we think it makes the dogfighting better that way" and any in-universe justification would be just thrown in as an afterthought.

The trouble I have with the blackout/redout mechanic in SC has nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with the fact that the "optimal" way to fly if you want to win involves you barely being able to see most of the time. For me, at least, it simply isn't that pleasant.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 02, 2016, 11:03:36 am
The trouble I have with the blackout/redout mechanic in SC has nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with the fact that the "optimal" way to fly if you want to win involves you barely being able to see most of the time. For me, at least, it simply isn't that pleasant.

My understatement detector went over 20.000.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on March 02, 2016, 11:08:16 am
What? The Ace will die in 5 seconds if you hit him with ML-16s and Furies.
If you're good with Furies, yes. If you aren't (and thus are spraying him with the ML-16), well, it indeed does take a while to whittle down its health. Seth is indeed hard to kill with that peashooter, and in practice scoring a hit with a Fury isn't easy, at least on a reasonable difficulty.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 02, 2016, 11:28:18 am
Difficulty doesn't even affect how much damage the player does and the Seth doesn't even have shields at that point. With just 4 ML-16s in linked banks it takes ~4.2 seconds to burn through the Seth's 280 hp. Obviously you're not going to hit every single shot but you also have Furies and some of them are going to hit if you're close enough.

It's really not hard to kill a shieldless Seth under 5 seconds, even with just 4 ML-16s and Furies on ANY difficulty.

I don't know why we're even talking about that Ace though, he's hardly a good example of a hard to kill enemy in Freespace. Killing a Nephilim with its 1600 shields and 500 armor is much harder, even with the best weapons you have in FS1, it's why they're so annoying in FS1. Enemies that aren't very dangerous to the player yet take a long time to kill due to pure stats just aren't very fun to fight.

The same goes for multiplayer, you don't want such long kill times in a supposedly action oriented dogfight sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 02, 2016, 01:00:37 pm
The thing that bugs me about the blackout/redout mechanic, besides the fact that with all the maneuvering your screen is just constantly fading in and out, is that it doesn't make sense. Real people can only take up to about 8 or 9 g's before passing out - and these are top notch pilots wearing G suits.

The G-suits are actually getting better. There's experimental models that have allowed brief periods of consciousness at 11G. (For many modern airframes this is approaching the frame's g-tolerance, nevermind the pilot.)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 02, 2016, 08:37:52 pm
The thing that bugs me about the blackout/redout mechanic, besides the fact that with all the maneuvering your screen is just constantly fading in and out, is that it doesn't make sense. Real people can only take up to about 8 or 9 g's before passing out - and these are top notch pilots wearing G suits.

The G-suits are actually getting better. There's experimental models that have allowed brief periods of consciousness at 11G. (For many modern airframes this is approaching the frame's g-tolerance, nevermind the pilot.)

Sincerely it's a moot point in a sci-fi universe that I imagine must have inertial dampeners to, you know, avoid having to take hours/days/centuries to accelerate to higher speeds without making an homelette of pilot and passengers.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 02, 2016, 09:02:44 pm
It does seem a bit stupid to have 0.2 lightspeed travel happen within seconds but still have to worry about pulling single-digit Gs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 02, 2016, 10:45:38 pm
Sincerely it's a moot point in a sci-fi universe that I imagine must have inertial dampeners to, you know, avoid having to take hours/days/centuries to accelerate to higher speeds without making an homelette of pilot and passengers.

Or you're just snapping physics over your knee for that kind of thing and so Gs don't matter with it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 03, 2016, 09:37:13 am
Sincerely it's a moot point in a sci-fi universe that I imagine must have inertial dampeners to, you know, avoid having to take hours/days/centuries to accelerate to higher speeds without making an homelette of pilot and passengers.

Or you're just snapping physics over your knee for that kind of thing and so Gs don't matter with it.

If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?
If someone wants a real hardcore spacesim there's Orbiter: http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on March 03, 2016, 10:17:28 am
If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?

I think that was kind of NGTM-1R's point. It would be like someone making Freespace and deciding that since space is a vacuum they shouldn't bother with any sounds. If you've already decided to go with a WW1 Planes but in Space approach to dogfighting, it's pretty silly to start going with real world physics rather than just continuing on Rule of Cool.

Incidentally, if SC is so big on realism, are they going to cut out all the sounds?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 03, 2016, 10:21:56 am
If SC is so big on realism why do space fighters even exist? Why aren't lasers completely hitscan?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on March 03, 2016, 10:28:50 am
If SC is so big on realism why do space fighters even exist? Why aren't lasers completely hitscan?

Why don't you go hang out in a thread for a game you actually like? 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 03, 2016, 10:33:08 am
the best way to understand what makes games like freespace and elite truly great is to look at the failings of games like star citizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on March 03, 2016, 10:58:35 am
the best way to understand what makes games like freespace and elite truly great is to look at the failings of games like star citizen

Star Citizen isnt out yet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 03, 2016, 10:59:09 am
To be fair, maybe like 3 people in this thread actually like SC. And the very first post in this thread after the OP was Aesaar disliking SC. This thread has been about bashing SC since page 1. If you want a circlejerk where everyone can share their delusions about SC being good you can find it on reddit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 03, 2016, 11:00:38 am
If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?

I think that was kind of NGTM-1R's point. It would be like someone making Freespace and deciding that since space is a vacuum they shouldn't bother with any sounds. If you've already decided to go with a WW1 Planes but in Space approach to dogfighting, it's pretty silly to start going with real world physics rather than just continuing on Rule of Cool.

My bad then, my chronic lack of sleep strikes again.
ì
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on March 03, 2016, 11:59:06 am
the best way to understand what makes games like freespace and elite truly great is to look at the failings of games like star citizen

Star Citizen isnt out yet.

Which makes its badness extra impressive.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 03, 2016, 02:16:56 pm
Star Citizen isnt out yet.

And is already failing catastrophically through its testing phase, never getting better.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 04, 2016, 01:44:20 am
It does seem a bit stupid to have 0.2 lightspeed travel happen within seconds but still have to worry about pulling single-digit Gs.

Possible in-universe explanation of this in SC is that intertial dampeners have problems with changing the dampening field quickly. So damping a straight continuous acceleration is easy, damping combat maneuvering is hard.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 04, 2016, 01:49:46 am
If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?
If someone wants a real hardcore spacesim there's Orbiter: http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Because neither Orbiter nor KSP even have space combat. They are not alternatives to Star Citizen, period. Star Citizen as a newtonian space combat sim fills that hole in the market between casual space sims that dont even try to have realistic flight model, and full simulations such as Orbiter or KSP that have things like orbits and dont even have combat. There is no other triple A game that does what SC does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 04, 2016, 01:52:59 am
As usual maslo has entirely detached himself from reality, in which he linked to a video of one fighter almost continuously shooting another for five minutes straight despite whatever evasive action was taking place.

Only some minor part of the shots connect, because the other fighter is moving a lot. It is not continuous shooting at all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 04, 2016, 02:03:37 am
Star Citizen Alpha patch 2.2 has been released to live. Highlights:

- reputation/hostility system
- party system
- flyable Sabre fighter
- physicalised EVA
- new walking and running animations with jukes
- first iteration of new component/ship customization system with ship cooler components
- increased number of players from 16 to 24
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on March 04, 2016, 02:48:01 am
Possible in-universe explanation of this in SC is that intertial dampeners have problems with changing the dampening field quickly. So damping a straight continuous acceleration is easy, damping combat maneuvering is hard.

When you're having to come up with in-universe explanations like that, it's time to admit that the reason the feature exists is nothing to do with realism. You don't have G-forces cause they are realistic in the universe. You have them because the devs wanted them.

You can't defend them in the way an F16 sim can by saying they're realistic any more. So the question is simply, will simulation of G-forces improve the game? I think Sushi has already explained why they won't.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on March 04, 2016, 08:46:23 am
I actually think blacking out on extreme maneuvers is a good idea... but they have to kick in only for the very most wild and sustained stuff, not every time you want to do reasonably well in a fight. Plenty of flight sims use blackout/redout and manage to be fun. Just tweaking the thresholds and/or the visual filters is probably enough to take it from "really annoying and nauseating" to "interesting game mechanic."

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 04, 2016, 08:49:01 am
If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?
If someone wants a real hardcore spacesim there's Orbiter: http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Because neither Orbiter nor KSP even have space combat. They are not alternatives to Star Citizen, period. Star Citizen as a newtonian space combat sim fills that hole in the market between casual space sims that dont even try to have realistic flight model, and full simulations such as Orbiter or KSP that have things like orbits and dont even have combat. There is no other triple A game that does what SC does.


But...Elite is newtonian as well...

P.S. What other AAA space sims have come out recently besides Elite & Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 04, 2016, 09:26:52 am
But...Elite is newtonian as well...

No, with that artificial yaw limit it is not. It may have inertia but it also goes out of its way to not play like a Newtonian space sim but more like an aeroplane simulator game instead. In a true newtonian space sim, there is little distinction between yaw and pitch and thus little incentive to use roll. Contrary to aeronautic simulators where it is crucial to use wing flaps or whatever to rotate and so yawing is not optimal. This leads to quite different play style. And Elite goes for this plane sim crowd. Which is fine I guess, it can also be fun to play for some people, but it doesnt scratch that Newtonian space sim itch for me. SC does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 04, 2016, 09:44:47 am
If you are already "snapping physics over your knee" then why simulate Gs?
If someone wants a real hardcore spacesim there's Orbiter: http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Because neither Orbiter nor KSP even have space combat. They are not alternatives to Star Citizen, period. Star Citizen as a newtonian space combat sim fills that hole in the market between casual space sims that dont even try to have realistic flight model, and full simulations such as Orbiter or KSP that have things like orbits and dont even have combat. There is no other triple A game that does what SC does.
Spacesims have always been more "casual" than other simulators and that is because of their simplified flight models but they had complex targeting and ship management systems at yur fingertips while for some reason SC wants to have an overcomplex "realistic" flight model but puts obstacles to advanced energy management by hiding it inside menus not unlike Roberts' old Wing Commander games which were much more "arcade" than other similar games like X-wing or, for that matter, Freespace.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 04, 2016, 10:53:26 am
But...Elite is newtonian as well...

No, with that artificial yaw limit it is not. It may have inertia but it also goes out of its way to not play like a Newtonian space sim but more like an aeroplane simulator game instead. In a true newtonian space sim, there is little distinction between yaw and pitch and thus little incentive to use roll. Contrary to aeronautic simulators where it is crucial to use wing flaps or whatever to rotate and so yawing is not optimal. This leads to quite different play style. And Elite goes for this plane sim crowd. Which is fine I guess, it can also be fun to play for some people, but it doesnt scratch that Newtonian space sim itch for me. SC does.

So...you know nothing about how planes fly. So let's get that out of the way first. So when you say it caters to the flight sim crowd because you use roll as the most predominant axis, you don't really know what you're talking about.

Second, you can counter the limited yaw by rolling to the side, and thrusting downwards and pulling back, giving you a very tight turn radius.

Thirdly, it's great that SC scratches that itch for you, but for me it looks like a very weak combat sim. Plus I can't even play it, since the code is so poorly optimized I can't even run it on my system yet. So whenever they fix that, maybe I'll check it out. But so far that video you posted looks "floaty" (in the sense that none of the ships have mass), so it looks more like Descent than a Newtonian simulator. Just because you can yaw fast and fly backwards doesn't really make it a great space sim, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 04, 2016, 11:15:31 am
It looks like a circle strafe simulator tbh. Basically DooM IN SPACE. When you've got side-thrusters as powerful as the main thruster there's no reason to bother with actual dogfighting or 3D manoeuvring as you can always travel where you want to while keeping your guns pointed at your target.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 04, 2016, 11:35:41 am
To which game are you referring FrikgFreek? Could you explain a little more clearly?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 04, 2016, 11:51:13 am
SC, obviously.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 04, 2016, 02:46:46 pm
I really want to live in this parallel world that maslo inhabits where airplanes regularly fly backwards and off-axis and make extensive use of vertical thrust. Commuter flights sound so much more fun.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MikeRoz on March 04, 2016, 04:09:31 pm
I really want to live in this parallel world that Phantom Hoover inhabits where spaceships have arbitrary speed limits and corner better when their velocity is at ~50% of that maximum.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 04, 2016, 04:40:29 pm
it's pretty great, much better than the newtonian one where everything's an autonomous kinetic kill vehicle
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on March 04, 2016, 04:43:52 pm
Neither game is pure newtonian. Pure newtonian sucks for dogfighting. Instead both games use partial newtonian physics with different concessions for keeping things fun and accessible.

It's a really silly thing to argue over and which flavor you prefer is primarily a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MikeRoz on March 04, 2016, 06:17:27 pm
No, I'm pretty sure it's impossible to discuss this topic without a massive amount of condescension.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 08, 2016, 10:31:21 pm
Perhaps I was being a bit condescending, but with a project like Star Citizen, with so much of people's time and resources at stake, it's just...there's so little oversight. It feels like a big bubble waiting to burst, it wouldn't take much to really sink it. It's promised so much and it's only just starting to show the skeleton of something even close to a functional game...I mean, 90% of what I gathered was that systems would have a lot more than 32 players in them. The game sounded a lot like an MMO, but I'm not sure if that's what it is now. I mean, really...32 players in a system? Ok, there's going to have to be a LOT of systems to make that interesting. Like, thousands of instances of thousands of systems. Where is that on the roadmap? It's all pretty spaceships and CGI movies, and no polish. No polish on things as basic as the flight model and how different ships interact. It's worrying, and whatever happens to Star Citizen will have ripple effects throughout many communities - gaming, investing, crowd funding - lots of stuff is tied into this project, and with that amount riding on it, the lack of accountability makes me nervous.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 09, 2016, 04:16:29 am
I mean.

There's this game. You may have heard of it. EVE Online.

To borrow one of its trailer lines, I Was There. I'm on killmails from the single largest player vs. player battle that has ever happened in online gaming. We had several thousand spaceships duking it out. I sunk a good decade into EVE before I quit, and will probably not return short of the Goonerdammerung.

But I'd rather hop into an interceptor and troll around EVE than play Star Citizen on so many levels. I can see what I'm doing just for starters. Star Citizen is amazingly pixel*****y for a modern game; it's like Sierra adventure game guys made a flight sim. At least The Babylon Project guys recognized that their combat had to take place at close range to hit things and allowed that to be possible; Star Citizen doesn't. People can always manage to extend to make it worse. I can actually see my ship and other ships and maintain situational awareness. I can tell if I'm hitting a target; I can easily see where targets are; I can interact with other players far more easily on several levels, with a well-defined ruleset that everybody knows; I can find things to shoot easier; I can find other players by their hundreds or thousands if I go to the right place. Jita 4-4 undock will always have more people on it than Star Citizen instances can cope with, even right before downtime.

And EVE is a really bad game, when you get down to it.

This is where we are. The only thing Star Citizen does better than EVE is give me a stick and a rudder.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on March 09, 2016, 04:33:27 am
Meanwhile, in Elite:


Now, to be fair, getting that many players into one instance is really hard (people have to wing up, drop into the instance together, then disband the wing), but still.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 09, 2016, 04:44:45 am
I still don't understand why Frontier made that gorgeous black hole distortion effect and then forgot to render the black hole
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 09, 2016, 12:10:53 pm
What do you mean, "forgot to render the black hole"?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on March 09, 2016, 12:28:24 pm
Black holes in Elite lack accretion disks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 09, 2016, 01:58:19 pm
Oh I thought he was going to mention "there's no actual black circle in there", which I would have trouble defending (apart from trying to come up with the idea that there's some kind of nebula in front of it).

Black holes do not necessarily have accretion disks, but wikipedia seems to point that Sag A probably has one, so there's that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 09, 2016, 03:08:44 pm
No I do mean the lack of an actual black circle. It should fill a significant fraction of the distorted area, certainly enough to see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 10, 2016, 08:52:03 am
Yes, that is what I thought and I agree. Accretion disks would be awesome too, but they now would have to be all inspired by Interstellar or everyone would complain.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on March 10, 2016, 09:05:22 am
Given that the black hole was easily the most impressive thing about that movie, I don't see that as a bad thing :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 10, 2016, 09:12:58 am
Also arguably the most accurate considering they dragged in one of the better astrophysics guys alive to make sure it looked right.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 11, 2016, 03:47:42 am
They spent a lot of computing power to render it astrophysically correct, although they skipped the assymetrical outline, which was actually much more correct, because it was more confusing for the audiences.

I think the inexistence of a black circle is the most indefensible one though, because it's not like it's hard to render such a thing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on March 13, 2016, 12:17:44 pm
I've been to Sgr A* in Space Engine and in E:D. SE has a listed diameter for the black hole proper of 0.913 AU (!!!). Even from several thousand light-seconds away, the gravitational distortion of the skybox is unbelievably disorienting; I'm too lazy to upload a pic, but anybody with Space Engine can check it out themselves. It's easy to see why FDev didn't go 1:1 with (supposed) reality concerning Sgr A*, but I still think it'd be more overwhelming and awe-inspiring if they had kept the core's actual size and sheer disturbance intact.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 13, 2016, 03:57:48 pm
0.913 AU? Really? So off the mark. Best estimates point it to between 40 and 50 AU... It's not like it would be more disorienting, it would be just noticeable farther away. If they could add proper falling physics into the BH it would be a really cool death.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on March 14, 2016, 02:43:10 pm
0.913 AU? Really? So off the mark. Best estimates point it to between 40 and 50 AU... It's not like it would be more disorienting, it would be just noticeable farther away. If they could add proper falling physics into the BH it would be a really cool death.

Walk the Line is absolutely mandatory.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on March 15, 2016, 11:04:01 am
Hmmm? What are you referring to? I mean, I liked that movie, but then again Phoenix is always good in anything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 15, 2016, 11:49:30 am
This thread is ****ing boring now. Where's all the star citizen bashing and derek smart shenanigans?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on March 15, 2016, 11:54:25 am
Hmmm? What are you referring to? I mean, I liked that movie, but then again Phoenix is always good in anything.

Its the sound Ray Butts and an SA-43 Hammerhead make when they fall into a Black Hole.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on March 15, 2016, 12:28:24 pm
This thread is ****ing boring now. Where's all the star citizen bashing and derek smart shenanigans?

I'm afraid you have to check SA thread for that. In this episode: DS engages in twitter combat with fake Vietnam vet, which turns out to be a troll account by certain SA poster. Oh, and there's that: http://i.imgur.com/xgcK8jJ.png , made by another SA poster.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on March 15, 2016, 01:13:07 pm
This thread is ****ing boring now. Where's all the star citizen bashing and derek smart shenanigans?


Meanwhile, the bitterness in the RSI forums is rising https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/322073/the-wisdom-of-quitting (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/322073/the-wisdom-of-quitting)

Half a year ago, such a post would have been shouted down by the white knights, but now there don't seem to be that many left to defend Crobizzle.
****ty patches with no meaningful improvement (but worse performance it seems) since the initial PU release is slowly but surely taking its toll.

EDIT: And yes, the SA paywall is gone again. The Goons have been busy with photoshop


[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 15, 2016, 04:06:08 pm
Hoorah for the paywall being lowered, time to read up a bit~

And that picture, I chuckled at first, then absolutely lost it when I saw DS' face on Yoda.  :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 15, 2016, 04:40:23 pm
Proper SC drama seems to be in a bit of a lull after Space Star Marine got cancelled and RSI kept up their hilariously slow dripfeed of 'progress' on the baby PU. From Fishguts' link it looks like that might be wearing thin, though.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 21, 2016, 10:27:51 am
.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 21, 2016, 11:09:57 am
.
If they can't give mass to the ships why don't they disable the physics system on landing?
Or at least invent an excuse like clamps to keep them in place.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 21, 2016, 11:33:40 am
.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on March 21, 2016, 11:50:00 am
The Power of Christ compels you!
(http://cdn.badassdigest.com/uploads/images/13736/theritehopkins__span.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on March 21, 2016, 11:50:26 am
To be fair, the issue in the Starfarer video might be caused by the ship being spawned in an undersized hangar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 21, 2016, 11:59:10 am
You can probably tell I'm reading the goon thread atm:

Quote from: SomethingJones
Here is a WIP list of every single feature that Chris has communicated over the last 12 months in the 10FTC videos. It's a WIP list because:
1- I am still going through these and checking if these are 'YES CONFIRMED' features (third of the way through and so far all of them are)
2- Some of these may already be in the game (so far I have only confirmed one, lowering your wanted level)
3- This is only from the last 12 months, there are another couple of years worth of these

NPC Generation
Docking and Undocking Tech
Realistic Audio Options
Personally Owned NPCs
Farming
Procedural Tech
Tri-Monitor Support
Hangar and Planet Side Module
Your Name in the Game
Carriers
Getting Everyone into the Same Instance
Lowering Your Wanted Level
More Economical or Versatile Corvettes
Planetary Ship Entry
Repair and Items System Capability
Lowering Your Wanted Level
Manned Turrets
Character Customization
Ship connected to User Online/Offline Status
Picking Up Objects On Planets
Multi-Monitor HUD
Large Ship Damage Control Lockers
Dogfights Through Space Stations
Ship Persistence
Stealth Game Play
Ability for Privateers/Corsairs/Buccaneers
Landing on Planets
Procedurally-Generated Environments
Starfarer's Refueling Mechanic
Additional Star Systems
Rigging
Anchoring to an Asteroid
Kill Boards
NPC ranks
Thruster Trails
Non-Leathal Combat Modules
Raid Supply Shipments
Owning an Alien Ship
Hidden Ship Compartments
Catapulting Through Space
Locking Ships
Jury Rig Repairing
Dynamic Weather
Starting in the Stanton System
Automatic Battle Flight Pattern
Living Spaces
Insurance for Pilots
Future Mining
Escape Pods Functionality in Alpha 2.0
Personal Armor (FPS) 
Extreme Ship Maneuvers
Your Inventory When The PU Goes Live.
Start up Sequence for Large Multi-Crew Ships
Voice Commands
Remotely Hacking Ships
Pacing NPC's
Incentives to keep your orginal Ship's Hull
Game Generated Missions
Communication Between Two Ships
Ship Armor
Controlled and Uncontrolled Space
NPC Crews
Guild Wars
Trading in Star Citizen
Inflation and Deflation
Hiring NPC's for missions
Travelling in Fleets
Tactical Game modes in FPS
Trading weapon in the FPS
Bounty Hunting
Player Generated Content
Loaner Multicrew Ships
Alien Language
Transiting Between Systems
Road to Developing Star Systems
Assigning Ships to Landing Zones
UI Customization
Radar features
Future Playable Maps
Ships Developed by the Community
Multicrew Ship Tech
Warning NPC's of Attack
NPC crew AI
Clothing Damage
Character Creator
Interior Damage System
Roaming Floating Structures
Ship Parking in the PU
Currency Usage
Hiring Programmers
Vehicles for Planetside
NPC dialogue
Electronic Warfare in the PU
Player Owned Cargo Space
NPC population in the PU
Salvaging in the 'Verse
Ships in my Hangar aging?
A Linux client?
In game Banking
VR in the 'Verse
Medic and Surgeon Skill progression
Mining and resource gathering
Fabricate weapons/armor/ship parts
FPS Armor Types
NPC control in FPS
Join in-progress free flight games.
Hangar parties & instancing.
Heavy personal armor.
Physical grappling beam.
Multicrew keycards.
Repairing Gold Horizon Space Stations
Taxation
Natural areas in the 'Verse
FPS environmental hazards
Store ore in your hangar
Organic ships
Ship spoofing
Non-combat ships relevancy
Search players for weapons
Flying a ship without a hud
Starting wars between the different races.
Using tractor beams defensively.
Flying while docked to another ship.
NPCs reaction to weapons.
Drop pods for soldiers.
Flying ships while limbs are damaged.
Using characters as crewmen.
Bounty Hunters and known associates.
Org recruiting NPCs.
NPCs using different loadouts.
Resources respawn in the PU.
NPC & Human scanning.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on March 26, 2016, 12:24:56 am
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/770/871/1a9.gif)

I don't have a horse to back on this. Why do I bother?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on March 27, 2016, 08:52:32 am
This thread is ****ing boring now. Where's all the star citizen bashing and derek smart shenanigans?
Ever since I joined the army, my free time has been far too precious for me to waste any of it on Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MikeRoz on March 27, 2016, 04:22:17 pm
SC might be great, might be terrible when all is said and done, but Derek Smart is not the prophet you're looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au6mMl5A79Q
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 27, 2016, 05:01:18 pm
What an incredibly ****ty video that is
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mammothtank on March 27, 2016, 10:54:00 pm
Watching that video gave me a headache. That video was literally so bad it physically hurt me.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 28, 2016, 05:38:49 am
That might just be one of the only videos on youtube that's more cancerous its comment section. Mind you, the comment section for this one is really cancerous.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 28, 2016, 07:13:26 am
I, too, dislike that background music

a good video otherwise tho
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 28, 2016, 11:30:06 pm
Well, as long as we're doing this...
I chose three random points in the video, and watched each for about a second before it annoyed me beyond reason. So props to anybody who was actually able to make it through the whole thing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mammothtank on March 29, 2016, 12:36:03 am
I couldn't get through it the first time I watched it. But I managed to get through it on a second viewing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on March 29, 2016, 02:17:58 am
I couldn't get through it the first time I watched it. But I managed to get through it on a second viewing.

Tried once, saw "Something Awful" and called it all awful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on March 29, 2016, 07:08:53 am
.
If they can't give mass to the ships why don't they disable the physics system on landing?
Or at least invent an excuse like clamps to keep them in place.

Afaik ... you can only watch it in  the Revel and York Hangar atm and it works fine there. /shrugs

Not sure how spoon got it into the other Hangar. ;-)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on March 29, 2016, 05:35:11 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/a40BzMP.jpg)
Don't put me in the same category as those jpg buying plebians.
Clearly that's not my YT channel.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on March 30, 2016, 10:04:42 pm
I just hate how the ships look. The Starfarer looks like a fat whale with a tiny nose.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Charismatic on April 01, 2016, 07:32:11 pm
I know this is newb but:
I was ~around~ when the whole Derek Smart and Freespace rights thing happened, but I was very limited on time. That said, I did not read the 500 pages of replies to the shenanigans.

Is there a "Best Quotes of Derek Smart" or "Derek Smart for Dummies" out there where I could see the core of it? I want to fully understand.

Also anyone have a friendly summary of what star citizen is? Iv read some and looked at their RSI website. But it seems its hard to understand. You have all different game types and its a whole universe? huh?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on April 01, 2016, 08:20:32 pm
Star citizen is everything you want it to be.
It's a dream~
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on April 02, 2016, 05:18:29 am
But only if you dream of mixing drinks or manually swapping video disks for the passengers of a futuristic spacecraft, which looks susiciously like an airplane. As for the summary, it's quite hard to do, thanks to the way the promises are spread out through multiple videos. I think there are MMO (Star Citizen) and single-player (Squadron 42) components. As far as I know, the MMO is supposed to be something in the vein of Ultima Online with spaceships/Star Wars Galaxies, while SQ42 looks suspiciously like the next Wing Commander, though with motion capture (I saw mention of 10 hours of footage sometimes last year) instead of live-action cutscenes. The game types are a relic of their older approach to developing the game, with features spread into different modules (hangar, where you can look at ships, dogfighting module and FPS module). Currently, the development is apparently focused on the so-called Baby Persistent Universe, which contains one part of one of the 100 systems planned at launch. I think it's supposed to be a core of the MMO part, though at the moment you can shoot some NPCs, crash into few players and do two missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on May 24, 2016, 08:25:50 am
2.4 just came out, adds "persistance" (aka item shops). It was pretty late, and people started questioning The Vision.

Something Awful dedicated an entire sub forum to this game.

I give it maybe 2 or 3 more patch releases before the next big drama bowl.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on May 24, 2016, 04:29:50 pm
Clearly, the addition of clothing stores is what all the backers have been impatiently waiting for since the release of the PU.
I mean who wouldn't want to spend the ingame time browsing through shirts to put on your spaceman doll?

(http://www.starcitizenfrance.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/starcitizen-casaba.jpg)

It's the BDSSE after all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on May 24, 2016, 05:01:39 pm
It doesn't appeal to me either, but clearly there's plenty of demand for that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on May 24, 2016, 06:00:01 pm
Believe me, for some people it's probably more important than actual gameplay. :) Consider that many spend real money for entirely cosmetic and utterly pointless additions in other games.

That said, it's good to see them doing something with the project, at least. For what people have been saying about it, it already got quite far. :) They need a decent variety of clothes for NPCs anyway, so I suppose it's not entirely pointless.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on May 24, 2016, 10:13:21 pm
Clearly, the addition of clothing stores is what all the backers have been impatiently waiting for since the release of the PU.
I mean who wouldn't want to spend the ingame time browsing through shirts to put on your spaceman doll?

(http://www.starcitizenfrance.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/starcitizen-casaba.jpg)

It's the BDSSE after all.

It's the height of folly to challenge TF2's insurmountable dominance in the realm of tactical hat and clothing simulation.  Clearly CR's hubris knows no bounds.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: RangerKarl on May 25, 2016, 06:32:10 am
Not sure why you'd associate a clothing line with nuclear shaped charges, but okay. Did somebody actually ask for this?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on May 25, 2016, 09:17:44 am
The finance minister at Robert Space Industries.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on May 25, 2016, 08:42:28 pm
Not sure why you'd associate a clothing line with nuclear shaped charges, but okay.
I've seen stranger ads for that sort of thing (shavers and fighter jets, for example). :) I wonder, though, if they just picked a cool-sounding name or if it was an intentional reference. It seems pretty realistic, had the technology not been so obscure (and nuclear weapons not so taboo), we'd already have advertisements touting washing machines, blenders, shirts and watches to be somehow as cool/powerful/whatever as a nuclear shaped charge. :) You can already get a motherboard named "AMD Fatality 990fx Killer" (I recently upgraded to it), which is pretty violent for a computer component that can only really harm your wallet (unless you're willing to bludgeon someone with a 200$ motherboard, of course :)).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on May 27, 2016, 06:06:53 pm
It really amuses me that the new CoD game is basically SQ42 but with non-retarded developers.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on May 27, 2016, 08:50:37 pm
It's probably just that CoD has a reasonable budget and a proper deadline. SC has far too much money for its own good. Give CoD devs an unlimited budget and an arbitrary amount of time and I'm sure they'd come up with something that tries to be CoD, ArmA, Second Life and EVE Online at the same time. The religiously devoted fanbase only makes it worse. CoD people know what they want (though judging by the trailer, it wasn't what they were showed), SC people want everything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on May 30, 2016, 09:10:58 pm
Star Citizen dropped out of E3. The redditzens are in a tizzy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4lpkst/cig_wont_present_at_pc_gaming_show_after_all/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on May 31, 2016, 02:04:05 am
According to the RSI forums that's good news and a sign that all is according to plan.

But FFS, I cannot comprehend why they don't release some generic space combat or FPS footage/screenshots of SQ42 to appease the backers. Hell, it could even be fake/staged footage, nobody could tell anyway.

But even the game journalists are shown nothing of SQ42 when they get a tour of the CIG studios. Either they really have nothing to show, or CR is really thinking that even a small snippet would spoil the fidelitous immershun of his masterpiece.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on May 31, 2016, 03:10:43 am
According to the RSI forums that's good news and a sign that all is according to plan.

Isn't literally anything CIG does, including nothing at all, considered as such over there?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on May 31, 2016, 08:46:00 am
(https://attlasinfo.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/tumblr_mu01yqle061r1k6vvo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 31, 2016, 03:19:01 pm
I love the idea that backing out of E3 is according to plan.

Not, not going to E3, but backing out of it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on May 31, 2016, 05:20:02 pm
I love the idea that backing out of E3 is according to plan.

Not, not going to E3, but backing out of it.

At this point I guess you could find people who would support "going to Hawai with 100 Million and buying a Yacht" was all according to plan as well. ;-)

SC community has gotten rather weird and uncritical. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on June 08, 2016, 12:51:17 am
(http://i.imgur.com/5JjlHTF.png)

****ed if true
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on June 08, 2016, 01:22:41 am
Well, that may not be them "fleeing the project" but rather them being busy doing acting for things that'll actually see the light of day some day. Bungie ran into similar issues when they cast Peter Dinklage in Destiny: By the time they made the DLCs, Dinklage was unavailable, and so the first two DLCs have exactly no lines from his character. By the time they made the third expansion, they decided to recast him and go with Nolan North; as it turns out, professional voice actors are more easily available for such jobs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 08, 2016, 03:53:22 am
I think it's fair to call actors breaking their contracts "fleeing the project".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on June 08, 2016, 04:56:53 am
If that's what has happened, yes, sure.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on June 08, 2016, 06:20:50 am
SC community has gotten rather weird and uncritical. /shrugs.

This is what happens to a community when all the skeptics have been either purged or quit the project entirely: your only remains are completely gullible people, and even remaining "moderates" will prevent themselves from posting too skeptical noises, with fear of reprisals.

The time for shouting how naked the emperor is within those forums is still far far away.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on June 08, 2016, 10:18:04 am
I wonder how many delays they will flog the voice talent horse.

(http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on June 08, 2016, 10:30:48 am
So you're suggesting that's why Gillian Anderson is "on the run"?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on June 15, 2016, 01:11:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXeplUbtMuc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXeplUbtMuc)

**** you, non-believers.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on June 15, 2016, 01:12:47 pm
Why...why did I ever doubt it? Only by simulating every joint upon every soldier's hand, the grain of every bullet and the tap of every last thruster, the jiggle of fat in the gut of the pilot, can this unprecedented level of fidelity and cinematic immersion be achieved...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on June 15, 2016, 01:21:17 pm
Why...why did I ever doubt it? Only by simulating every joint upon every soldier's hand, the grain of every bullet and the tap of every last thruster, the jiggle of fat in the gut of the pilot, can this unprecedented level of fidelity and cinematic immersion be achieved...

LOL

Really though, if the thing isn't too scripted and allows to use a stick when flying I might consider buying it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on June 15, 2016, 01:35:16 pm
I think they missed an opportunity by not utilizing at least BSGesq sound design for space.  It would have added a nice contrast to highlight all those transitions from atmo to vacuum.  That being said depending on how much freedom of control the player is allocated that sequence would be pretty fun to play.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on June 15, 2016, 01:39:04 pm
Hey, SQ42 is further along than we all thought! Oh wait...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on June 15, 2016, 05:13:20 pm
Hey, SQ42 is further along than we all thought! Oh wait...

You are not the first to make that joke, nor the last.

I indeed wonder what would Chris Roberts think if it came out something a bit too similar to what he's doing with Squadron 42...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Blue Lion on June 27, 2016, 12:25:51 pm
Dunno if anyone saw this but that doesn't look like it bodes well for things

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-06-21-star-citizens-refunds-process-just-got-more-complicated
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on July 09, 2016, 03:10:04 pm
Lately I've been wondering whether the "real" "scam" is that CR actually IS making the game of his dreams (I.e. a highly cinematic single player spiritual successor to Wing Commander) while most backers throwing money at the screen appear to think they are actually making any progress towards some kind of "ultimate space MMO that has everything of everything and is super detailed and even the task of tending soda vending machines on commercial flights will somehow be fun because of "IMMERSIUNNN!!"". :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2016, 04:45:58 pm
Oh yeah, it's been clear for a very long time that CR's main interest is spending money raised by promising insane stretch goals for the MMO open-world simulation game on directing a movie with a bunch of A-list supporting actors so he can go back to his personal dream of pretending to be George Lucas.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 09, 2016, 05:50:12 pm
Stretch goals and endless backer funds have at last enabled Chris Roberts' dream of eternally expanding scope and endless iteration on already-finished systems, without the tyranny of producers or any actual finished product to constrain him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on July 09, 2016, 06:27:56 pm
http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/feature/star-citizen-and-the-fleet-of-folly,421017

Perhaps this one will sell his ships, but still, it will be to someone else thinking something like him when he bought them.

I don't get it unless that kind of money is chump change to you. I could understand it perhaps if the game came out and it was your dream game but you were just getting crushed and unable to acquire the higher ships or get anywhere because people were stomping your starting ship like an empty beer can, but even then you'd buy one ship at a time until you were strong enough to earn the rest. Hell, you could probably pay a gold farmer off for a fraction of the price to get the necessary in game cash to buy the ships.

I wonder if over at Elite Dangerous they offered a player a battlecruiser complete with full escort for $100,000 if someone would pay for it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 09, 2016, 08:39:39 pm
Someone probably would, it's a big world. I mean, people pay ridiculous amounts for super rare CSGO skins, I don't think it's that impossible that one of those rich as **** Dubai collectors would be interested in Elite: Dangerous ships.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 12, 2016, 08:20:06 am
There was a couple big updates from CIG, game looks like it's coming along...though I question the need for all that internal detail. Unfortunately the SA paywall is up again, anything interesting happening in there?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 12, 2016, 08:39:00 am
my bet is 'lots of ****posts with cats in them'
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2016, 09:15:38 am
You're being generous there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 15, 2016, 04:24:36 pm
I know there isn't much to the game yet but you can buy this T-shirt!
(http://i.imgur.com/i0G0ISy.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on July 15, 2016, 04:48:40 pm
I know there isn't much to the game yet but you can buy this T-shirt!
(http://i.imgur.com/i0G0ISy.png)

Yeah ... so now stop with the excuses and tell us where the WoD T-Shirts are! :-)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 15, 2016, 06:37:58 pm
Truth of the matter is that all negotiations with mountain dew and doritos have failed, so I don't have the sponsors to start making amazing merchandise like tshirts.
y-yeah, that's it, that's the story.

Meanwhile durk smurt has made another tl;dr blog post http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/07/star-citizen-the-refund-debacle/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Blue Lion on July 15, 2016, 08:15:43 pm
How long until the tshirt preorders are pushed back as the swell of support makes them long sleeve shirts, and then pants are added and finally people are saying the release date of the 3 piece suit was never set in stone and you're just being haters. It'll be the greatest tuxedo ever it just takes time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 15, 2016, 09:05:42 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cnct5l4WYAElHb1.jpg:large
 :jaw:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 15, 2016, 09:12:32 pm
That's an average man's yearly salary, what the ****?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 15, 2016, 10:10:00 pm
This is the reason the gaming industry didn't kill itself with the ever ****tier practices it's been adopting.  Because idiots like this exist.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 11:56:48 am
Axem and I had the pleasure of trying this piece of **** together.
I don't even have words.

(https://ibin.co/2oH5ZAhIIQeT.jpg)

I do have words, all the words are bad words.
It runs at 20fps at best at low on 1600x900, frequently dipping into 10-13's
You can clip through everything
The interface is a hot loving mess
The headbob and motion blur made me feel sick within 10 minutes
Speaking of 10 minutes, thats the actual play time you get inbetween the 30 minute loading screens
The controls are terrible
Nothing works
The game crashed three times in the hour we tried
The game doesn't even come with a ****ing uninstaller

(https://ibin.co/2oH6LFksqCet.png)
(https://ibin.co/2oH6ifZLVeEf.png)

It's a bucket of anal dispensed diarrhea, it's the putrid smell of dying puss and roadkilled skunk, it's a vomit inducing barbeque disaster, it's chris robert's dying dream of being a succesful hollywood director, it's a load of smegma, it's big rigs racing combined with battlecruiser 3000AD, it's awful, its bad, its starcitizen.

And I don't like it.

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Party%20Parrots/parrotdad_zpst5f07uko.gif~original) BUY MORE JPEG'S!!! (http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Party%20Parrots/parrotdad_zpst5f07uko.gif~original)

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Party%20Parrots/parrotdad_zpst5f07uko.gif~original) THROW MORE MONEY AT CHRIS ROBERT SO THIS GAME CAN BECOME EVERYTHING YOU DREAM IT TO BE!!! (http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Party%20Parrots/parrotdad_zpst5f07uko.gif~original)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rodo on July 16, 2016, 12:00:01 pm
Damn, everyone is so salty about this. If you don't like it why not just get your money back and walk away?

When there's nothing good to be said, that's the time to take a leave... I mean, pokemon go is out, right?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 16, 2016, 12:02:00 pm
Damn, everyone is so salty about this. If you don't like it why not just get your money back and walk away?

When there's nothing good to be said, that's the time to take a leave... I mean, pokemon go is out, right?

It's free play week
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 12:04:39 pm
someone doesn't know how hard cloud imperium is trying to make it to get your money back lol

(http://i.imgur.com/D0csutO.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/WJxaavk.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 16, 2016, 12:12:38 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/WJxaavk.jpg)

quoted for best hat
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 16, 2016, 12:13:25 pm
If you don't like it why not just get your money back and walk away?

it's not like CIG are illegally refusing to give refunds or anything, after all
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 12:15:11 pm
Making fun of this hot disaster has given me more fun than the 24ish euro I pledged to this dream.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on July 16, 2016, 12:33:44 pm
Part of the reason I wanted to try this out during free play week was to find out "just how bad could it be?"

And boy... if that's what they have to show for $117 million... wow.

I really just don't know what to say. It's been 4 years since they started, they're using a mature game engine. How could it go so wrong? You can clip through airlock doors (and a multitude of everything else) so easily, the lod pop in is crazy, objects very noticeably load from behind a door after the door swings open. How could this get past any game producer/programmer/play tester and not go "this is seriously wrong, we need to find a better way".

And this doesn't even get into the nauseating flight controls for space flight. Or how the FPS camera is locked to the head model. Or the surprisingly small interior of this huge station. Or or... Man, I don't even know. I'm so glad I resisted the urge the pledge. But even if I had, I wouldn't bother trying to get my money back.

Spoon: Stop being so mad, its worrying. :(
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 01:08:29 pm
Grrrr  :mad:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 16, 2016, 01:21:38 pm
Part of the reason I wanted to try this out during free play week was to find out "just how bad could it be?"

And boy... if that's what they have to show for $117 million... wow.

I really just don't know what to say. It's been 4 years since they started, they're using a mature game engine. How could it go so wrong? You can clip through airlock doors (and a multitude of everything else) so easily, the lod pop in is crazy, objects very noticeably load from behind a door after the door swings open. How could this get past any game producer/programmer/play tester and not go "this is seriously wrong, we need to find a better way".

And this doesn't even get into the nauseating flight controls for space flight. Or how the FPS camera is locked to the head model. Or the surprisingly small interior of this huge station. Or or... Man, I don't even know. I'm so glad I resisted the urge the pledge. But even if I had, I wouldn't bother trying to get my money back.

Spoon: Stop being so mad, its worrying. :(

They got $117 million for this?

That led me to a thought:  Can you imagine the kind of game we would have got if Volition was given that kind of budget and told to make FS3?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on July 16, 2016, 02:30:44 pm
Spoon: Stop being so mad, its worrying. :(
Not sure if serious, but I feel the same. Genuine worry. He's like a different person and I don't like it...

Spoon, what's set you off like this? You've been a minor player in this thread until now.

You've turned into a goon. But maybe you already were one to begin with, I don't know. Maybe you're just impersonating one for your amusement.

Part of the reason I wanted to try this out during free play week was to find out "just how bad could it be?"

And boy... if that's what they have to show for $117 million... wow.

I really just don't know what to say. It's been 4 years since they started, they're using a mature game engine. How could it go so wrong? You can clip through airlock doors (and a multitude of everything else) so easily, the lod pop in is crazy, objects very noticeably load from behind a door after the door swings open. How could this get past any game producer/programmer/play tester and not go "this is seriously wrong, we need to find a better way".

And this doesn't even get into the nauseating flight controls for space flight. Or how the FPS camera is locked to the head model. Or the surprisingly small interior of this huge station. Or or... Man, I don't even know. I'm so glad I resisted the urge the pledge. But even if I had, I wouldn't bother trying to get my money back.

Spoon: Stop being so mad, its worrying. :(

They got $117 million for this?

That led me to a thought:  Can you imagine the kind of game we would have got if Volition was given that kind of budget and told to make FS3?
You're not the first. :)

When there's nothing good to be said, that's the time to take a leave... I mean, pokemon go is out, right?
Unfortunately a lot of people around here don't work that way and choose to be that way. Hard Light is not a nice or friendly place. I've given up trying to change that. The people with the power and influence like the culture just the way it is. They made it that way and want it to stay that way. Hell, if the new Spoon is here to stay, he'll honestly fit in better.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 16, 2016, 02:55:16 pm
I think venting some frustration about the most important kickstarter of the decade, the one who even dealt with the big possibility of a rennaissance of space sim games, the game development that may by itself destroy a big chunck of confidence throughout the game industry and kickstarter methods, the one game that could have been crazy good yet simple and manageable.

I think venting frustration at that is not unhealthy. It's good. Vent. All of this should be shouted in all the internets. Imperium should be shamed to the bitter end about this debácle, and everyone should hear all the frustration until no one, no one at all, can even think of repeating this nonsense.

Until Star Citizen, we had Duke Nukem Forever to laugh at, to point at as the big No No in game development hell. Now we have a new standard: the pace of Duke Nukem Forever, all its troubles, plus a con game where all your development money is coming from your "future" consumers, spending up to tens of thousands of dollars. All of this is just insane. So now it's not only something worth laughing about, it's something worthy of getting the feds into this con game.

If Duke Nukem Forever was the Mormonism of religions, Star Citizen goes one step forward and it becomes Scientology.

It should be shamed into oblivion. This, contrary to some optimists here, cannot and should not succeed. It deserves total backlash and total condemnation. The corruption, the nepotism, all the signs of fraud, and so, so many people giving money for their "dreams". It's disgusting. Someone nuke it from orbit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 03:13:27 pm
Grrr, star citizen makes me so mad. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night, drenched in sweat, screaming for Derek Smart to save me.

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/ffs_zpswxj0ipfl.jpg~original)











Spoiler:
Luis Dias makes a good post.
No Lorric, I am not actually mad, I am just making fun of Starcitizen in a goon like manner. Which I am not, but I think the gooncitizens are amusing as ****, I am just a sad wannabe.

P.S. Starcitizen is actually legitely really bad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on July 16, 2016, 03:44:17 pm
Spoon, Goon... coincidence? I think not!
Spoiler:
Yeah, I have read the spoiler above.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 03:49:35 pm
Now that you have discovered my secret, I cannot let you live.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on July 16, 2016, 03:50:34 pm
This, contrary to some optimists here, cannot and should not succeed.
Wait a minute. Are you actually saying you want Star Citizen to fail? Why? If it eventually gets out of the door and is good, a lot of people will be very happy and we have a good game. Even if it's bad, if it's in any way moddable, that community will probably make it good.

I don't see any upside to it failing. Or at least anything to offset the far greater downside.

@ Spoon - Thanks. :)

Spoon, Goon... coincidence? I think not!
Spoiler:
Yeah, I have read the spoiler above.
Oh, I thought about doing something with that in my earlier post too. :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 16, 2016, 03:54:00 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/BRLFNXG.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xCEXE9O.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 16, 2016, 04:10:39 pm
Oh hell you just said his name three times.  Hi Derek!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 16, 2016, 05:24:01 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/xCEXE9O.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/xCEXE9O.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 16, 2016, 07:36:26 pm
Wait a minute. Are you actually saying you want Star Citizen to fail? Why? If it eventually gets out of the door and is good, a lot of people will be very happy and we have a good game. Even if it's bad, if it's in any way moddable, that community will probably make it good.

I don't see any upside to it failing. Or at least anything to offset the far greater downside.

It won't be. Any of that. Out the door. Never happen. Good. Deeply unlikely. People happy. We passed the chance for that awhile ago. Good game. Again not happening. Bad. There probably isn't going to be a game. Moddable: unlikely. Community: the community has been reduced to the elements most sycophantic and least able to exercise critical thinking skills. The community making it good: the community has been reduced to the people least likely to be interested in making the game better because of their psychological investment in the base game being good and actively selects against people with any kind of game development experience even as modders.

This is a game that deserves to fail if any game ever has. It has alienated its fans not put in the effort to succeed, behaved in a predatory fashion towards its users, acted the fool in public, engaged in ridiculous stretches of goal and scope without any clear idea what it was doing, and abandoned being the thing the majority of its users pledged for.

It should suffer severe consequences, as a warning to the next ten generations that some behaviors come with too high a price.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 16, 2016, 07:52:22 pm
I don't know if I'll ever play SC, but I may try SQ42.  If it's just a simple WC/FS/Starlancer  type of game I'll be happy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on July 17, 2016, 12:47:38 am
If you don't like it why not just get your money back and walk away?

it's not like CIG are illegally refusing to give refunds or anything, after all

The hot news item this week is that they gave one guy a refund, so... (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/14/star-citizen-refund) Place your requests, make it quick?

I don't know if I'll ever play SC, but I may try SQ42.  If it's just a simple WC/FS/Starlancer  type of game I'll be happy.

Yup, me too! Though I'll probably sample house of the dying sun first.

(And will probably enjoy it to a similiar degree despite that thing costing a whole lot less to develop  :blah:)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 18, 2016, 06:11:29 am
you just don't understand game development (https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4t5cqy/star_citizen_free_fly_week_now_available/d5f6i6g?context=5)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 06:21:06 am
NGTM, I read your argument and be all like "But but but I said that first!?!1?!", and at the same time go all like "but he wrote it so much bettah...."  :(

it's not like CIG are illegally refusing to give refunds or anything, after all

The hot news item this week is that they gave one guy a refund, so... (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/14/star-citizen-refund) Place your requests, make it quick?

I... ahhh... what. No... wait. Processing.... what. That was your take away....? No.... wait. Brain malfunction. Reboot. Reset. Clean visual data. Press "post" and leave thread immediately to save sanity check self-diagnosis.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on July 18, 2016, 06:29:02 am
NGTM, I read your argument and be all like "But but but I said that first!?!1?!", and at the same time go all like "but he wrote it so much bettah...."  :(

it's not like CIG are illegally refusing to give refunds or anything, after all

The hot news item this week is that they gave one guy a refund, so... (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/14/star-citizen-refund) Place your requests, make it quick?

I... ahhh... what. No... wait. Processing.... what. That was your take away....? No.... wait. Brain malfunction. Reboot. Reset. Clean visual data. Press "post" and leave thread immediately to save sanity check self-diagnosis.

What, you don't think this will end in a ****storm for CIG?

I mean more then it is now (because right now, although there is a massive ****storm, it seems CIG is not all that much affected by it as they still have money)? Or is the line of thinking that this may set a precedent beyond the realm of possibility so much?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 06:49:48 am
I think that the last thing a reasonable person may advise others to do is follow the footsteps of that guy, especially if they only invested 24 bucks in the game. And that's the ****ing point why the CIG gave this guy so much crap to begin with. They don't care. "****storm" you say? ****, this was a total advertised warning to anyone who is even considering getting their money back: "unless you get a lawyer and the feds on our ass, and be willing to suffer constant **** from our beloved fans, you won't get your 20 bucks back, you silly".

This **** is still playing into their hands. For anything remotely interesting to occur - by which I can only mean total implosion of the project - a critical mass of bull**** will have to go through all of these silly fanboys' deflector shields until it reaches what passes for their comical brains. And not only it has to reach this terrain, everyone of them have to realise all others are feeling that **** stinking inside their brains as well, which is why totalitarian control of the community and information is so central to these assholes' day to day lives.

"Ah but we are so transparent, we give so much of what we know! We make weekly podcasts!!", yeah. You know who else makes weekly podcasts to their paying fans? Every ****ing church out there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on July 18, 2016, 06:56:46 am
CIG won't implode, it will go out with sad 'pfffrt' of a barely inflated fart cushion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 07:13:07 am
I mean more then it is now (because right now, although there is a massive ****storm, it seems CIG is not all that much affected by it as they still have money)? Or is the line of thinking that this may set a precedent beyond the realm of possibility so much?

If there is a massive ****storm, it's from the SC backers towards this one guy who abandoned his faith in the Church of the Cloud Imperium and the saviour Christ Roberts. As far as the gaming press is concerned, this is a non-story: Most sites have posted a "this just happened" article, but have not followed up with any investigation into CIG or its community (or if they have, they chose not to post it).

And legally speaking, this doesn't set a precedent: Because CIG voluntarily granted the refund despite their terms of service, there is no legal precedent to fall back on; anyone else trying for a refund will have to go through more or less the same process.

The only thing that would cause CIG real trouble at this point would be if a large portion of their current backers who are also active community members decide to try for refunds, but that is not going to happen. I'd wager that most backers are people who put in 30 or 60 bucks, followed the project for a while, and then forgot about it; Unless you're very bored indeed, that sort of money isn't worth chasing CIG for.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 18, 2016, 07:34:15 am
you just don't understand game development (https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4t5cqy/star_citizen_free_fly_week_now_available/d5f6i6g?context=5)

How come no one asked that twat if he was also involved in game development?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 07:40:33 am
How come no one asked that twat if he was also involved in game development?

Obviously he is, he is a Star Citizen backer and faithful follower of everything CIG produces. That makes him practically into a developer himself!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 08:41:09 am
It's the best defense ****izens have. It's their turtleshell to crawl into if feeling threatend. "You bring up legitimate concerns regarding the pisspoor state of the project? YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A PROJECT OF THIS SIZE IS BEING DEVELOPED" Boom (https://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2015/Avatars/taylorboom.gif)

Of course, in truth its actually (http://i.imgur.com/xBxxnVi.gif)

CIG won't implode, it will go out with sad 'pfffrt' of a barely inflated fart cushion.
I am afraid of this too... It makes me sad because I'll get endlessly more entertainment out of my 24 euro if this all just explodes spectacularly. I want to be like this when it all ends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coYieIF8I5M)

I think that the last thing a reasonable person may advise others to do is follow the footsteps of that guy, especially if they only invested 24 bucks in the game. And that's the ****ing point why the CIG gave this guy so much crap to begin with. They don't care. "****storm" you say? ****, this was a total advertised warning to anyone who is even considering getting their money back: "unless you get a lawyer and the feds on our ass, and be willing to suffer constant **** from our beloved fans, you won't get your 20 bucks back, you silly".

This **** is still playing into their hands. For anything remotely interesting to occur - by which I can only mean total implosion of the project - a critical mass of bull**** will have to go through all of these silly fanboys' deflector shields until it reaches what passes for their comical brains. And not only it has to reach this terrain, everyone of them have to realise all others are feeling that **** stinking inside their brains as well, which is why totalitarian control of the community and information is so central to these assholes' day to day lives.

"Ah but we are so transparent, we give so much of what we know! We make weekly podcasts!!", yeah. You know who else makes weekly podcasts to their paying fans? Every ****ing church out there.
This is true. I mean, this exactly the kind of bull**** why I am not going to bother trying to get my 24 euro back. Because it seems like waaaay too much of a time and energy investement for a small payoff. So mission succesful for them, only the people brimming with determination are going to get any money back.


(http://i.imgur.com/kP66Ceb.jpg)
Landing succesf

Also has anyone said yet how incredible ****ing awful the lod pop in in this game is? It's really bad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 08:41:50 am
u guise don't understand squat bout programmin', especially you dhreee. Squa't! [hic]
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Grizzly on July 18, 2016, 08:47:57 am
... Am I the only one in this thread who did not back this project?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 08:49:44 am
Apparently?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 08:52:47 am
Nah, I was able to smell the fart waaaay before I could even entertain the notion of giving them any green.

Typical hesitation stemming from my lack of character helped building enough time to make the right call.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 08:59:08 am
I really liked (still like, but with a bit of nostaliga goggles to them) wingcommander 3 4 and 5 so when I saw the initial trailer I was totally buying into the hype.

Little did I know back then what kind of person Chris roberts actually turned out to be.
And what I backed was a wingcommander style single game. All the promised mmo poopoo was not really on my radar.

My faith in the project started to waver when I first touched arena commander and noticed how unfun the game was to play and how poor everything was. But then, the 'it's but a pre-alpha' defense still held some water...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on July 18, 2016, 09:02:16 am
I didn't, though I've had some experience with few free-fly weeks, which tells me I have made a good decision. How could I buy SC, when the part of it is a single-player game with a story by Chris Roberts, after I have seen the Wing Commander movie?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 09:06:04 am
Has it been mentioned yet how starcitizen community manager Ben lesnick (or perhaps better known as banditloaf from the wingcommander forums, the guy that seemed to be on some kind of anti freespace 2 crusade) is in the hospital (https://twitter.com/ballroom_blitz/status/754805432468713472) with Sepsis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepsis)?
Seems like an honest chance he might die from it. Considering his massive obesity, sepsis seems like the kind of nasty disease he might not recover from.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 09:17:36 am
As much as I dislike the guy for his incompetence, that ****ing sucks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mammothtank on July 18, 2016, 09:19:26 am
I know I don't really get into much conversation on this forum. But I noticed that people have a rather low opinion on Ben Lesnick? He seemed like a cool guy on the Wing Commander forums. Is there any reason why?


Also thanks Spoon. I didn't know BanditLOAF was Lesnick until then.  But that really sucks with the Sepsis and all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 18, 2016, 09:25:42 am
Quote
I wasn’t a huge Freespace fan in general. I liked what they did with getting the scale of ships right, but I thought their story and immersion paled compared to Wing Commander... and to me they felt like the also-ran to Wing Commander Prophecy and Starlancer which had really unique worlds built around them.


Quote
Well, he's telling the same people to go **** themselves who I've always sincerely believed should go **** themselves... but somehow, the entire concept is too cruel for even me to embrace. With that in mind, I have penned...

An Open Letter to the Freespace Community

Dear Freespace Jerks,
I know we've had our differences. Like all the times we've made fun of the big capships guy, or the times we've called your game a soulless Prophecy ripoff. Or even the times we photographed ourselves ripping apart copies of Freespace 2 with our bare teeth... but I'm not here to make fun of Freespace today.

Sure, your game killed any interest in space sims and in so doing killed a lot of viable Wing Commander products. We'll never play Strike Team or Shadow Force or Privateer Online, partially because of Freespace. I really hate you for that; I probably always will.

And sure, in my heart of hearts I've wanted to see you suffer the same fate in some fashion. I've thought and dreamed about that for a long time. Heck, when the news about Fallout 3 came out I hoped someone would buy the Descent license and start churning out generic budget clones.

So let me say this - never, ever, in my most sadistic revenge fantasies could I have ever wished a fate such as Dr. Derek Smart upon you. As a key figure in the varied fan conflicts and as an accepted representative of the Wing Commander community as a whole let me say: I am truly, truly sorry for what has happened.
 



-Ben Lesnick


Yeah, wonder why people have a rather low opinion of him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 09:28:00 am
As much as I dislike the guy for his incompetence, that ****ing sucks.
Agreed. I think he's a big stupid oaf who fostered a really toxic community, but this is the kind of **** you don't wish on people.

I know I don't really get into much conversation on this forum. But I noticed that people have a rather low opinion on Ben Lesnick? He seemed like a cool guy on the Wing Commander forums. Is there any reason why?
Apparantly he had a history of saying some really weird and questionable things on the internet:

Quote from: Ben Lesnick's Personal Webpage posted:
    No, but If I was going to surprise sex 12 year old girls I'd get a vasectomy... but I'm not so I won't so there. #14547
    I surprise sex all kinds of stuff. Lets watch Friends. #20285
    You know what I don't get? People who keep complaining that we're killing Iraqi children. These people have clearly never met a foreigner before. #21156
    A black guy who can't find crack? I think not. I really shouldn't be letting my nine year old cousin watch this. #21603
    The Jeffersons moved on up. They were pretty black. #15029
    You know what they don't have here in college? Black people. #18464
    There are absolutely no black people here. #18465
    Poor Old friend of the family Thinks It's A Cadillac. #17627
    I would have been back earlier, but I got jewed in CounterStrike, friend of the family. #21860
    Huzzah, downloaded the first episode of Pokemon Advanced Generation. Hehe, this is so great. May is pretty hot for a ten year old. #21520
    Jewish people don't drive busses. They run gold ring making companies and holocaust museums and delis. #19627
    Japan invented getting a nuclear bomb dropped on themselves. #20863
    I wish they'd invent a way to trade between the original Pokemons and the GBA Pokemons. You'd think that Japan, the country that invented getting attacked with nuclear bombs, would be smart enough to figure that out. #21582
    But I always assumed that if I wanted to kill people, I could at least get a classroom worth. #18017
    There are lots of mature 15 year olds... Well, he's *MORE* mature then he used to be. #5435
    Wow, Hades, do you try to pursue homosexual relations with children age 8-13 too? #7673
I unforunately cannot immediately produce the link to this webpage, but I've seen goons bounce it around a few times. I have no idea how much any of this is true though! Take it with a grain of salt.

Also thanks Spoon. I didn't know BanditLOAF was Lesnick until then.  But that really sucks with the Sepsis and all.
Yeah, I was suprised when I learned that he was. And then instantly lost whatever little respect I had left for the guy when I saw:
(http://www.dereksmart.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/banditloaf-dsmart-comment.jpg)

Meanwhile in the 'verse
The local physics grids appear to be working fantastically.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 09:29:00 am
FrikgFeek how dare you ninja me! (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-argh.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 09:34:10 am
Quote from: Ben Lesnick's Personal Webpage posted:
    No, but If I was going to surprise sex 12 year old girls I'd get a vasectomy... but I'm not so I won't so there. #14547
    I surprise sex all kinds of stuff. Lets watch Friends. #20285
    You know what I don't get? People who keep complaining that we're killing Iraqi children. These people have clearly never met a foreigner before. #21156
    A black guy who can't find crack? I think not. I really shouldn't be letting my nine year old cousin watch this. #21603
    The Jeffersons moved on up. They were pretty black. #15029
    You know what they don't have here in college? Black people. #18464
    There are absolutely no black people here. #18465
    Poor Old friend of the family Thinks It's A Cadillac. #17627
    I would have been back earlier, but I got jewed in CounterStrike, friend of the family. #21860
    Huzzah, downloaded the first episode of Pokemon Advanced Generation. Hehe, this is so great. May is pretty hot for a ten year old. #21520
    Jewish people don't drive busses. They run gold ring making companies and holocaust museums and delis. #19627
    Japan invented getting a nuclear bomb dropped on themselves. #20863
    I wish they'd invent a way to trade between the original Pokemons and the GBA Pokemons. You'd think that Japan, the country that invented getting attacked with nuclear bombs, would be smart enough to figure that out. #21582
    But I always assumed that if I wanted to kill people, I could at least get a classroom worth. #18017
    There are lots of mature 15 year olds... Well, he's *MORE* mature then he used to be. #5435
    Wow, Hades, do you try to pursue homosexual relations with children age 8-13 too? #7673
I unforunately cannot immediately produce the link to this webpage, but I've seen goons bounce it around a few times. I have no idea how much any of this is true though! Take it with a grain of salt.

He was claiming it was all jokes, but all that tells me is that he had (has?) a really bad sense of humour.

It also doesn't explain his stalkerish obsession with a local news reporter documented on said site (or at least, it was documented when the goons found it)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mammothtank on July 18, 2016, 09:37:58 am
Err... He seems like a nice person. But I will have to admit I found two of those jokes funny, but most of them were pretty bad. Primary school bad.


"Tearing apart Freespace 2 copies with their teeth" ...Ok. While I certainly see the faults of FS2 storywise. It doesn't deserve that kind of hatred.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 09:38:40 am
Dat Freespace rant.

fart. I meant fart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 18, 2016, 09:52:44 am
While I certainly see the faults of FS2 storywise.

Could you maybe elaborate?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 09:53:21 am
Could you maybe not do this here in this thread?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mammothtank on July 18, 2016, 09:55:01 am
I didn't elaborate since I didn't want to go off topic and start a discussion about the faults of FS2 here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 18, 2016, 09:58:14 am
If you want to discuss FS2, we have plenty of other threads in which to do so, it doesn't have to be this one.

And please consider this, FrikgFeek: We are not the SC community. There is no problem with someone criticizing FS2; hell, a lot of the work we're doing wouldn't be possible if this community wasn't dedicated to the critical appreciation of FS2.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 09:59:15 am
It's not Mammoth's intention to talk about FS2 in this thread. I suggest we get back on topic, please.

I really want Star Citizen to come out, especially Squadron 42. I want to watch the terrible, terrible Let's-play videos. I really want to hear what Chris thinks good writing is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 18, 2016, 10:02:38 am
There was a leaked script a while back
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 10:12:03 am
There was a leaked script a while back
I've seen only fragments of it, and as much as I love tearing into Starcitizen nowdays, the bits I did see didn't seem all that bad to me. Then again I am well aware I have no writer credentials so I am ill qualified to make any actual statements about the quality and merit of the writing itself.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 18, 2016, 10:16:58 am
Quote
I wasn’t a huge Freespace fan in general. I liked what they did with getting the scale of ships right, but I thought their story and immersion paled compared to Wing Commander... and to me they felt like the also-ran to Wing Commander Prophecy and Starlancer which had really unique worlds built around them.
Yeah, the immersion of FMVs and lack of in-mission dialogues*.  :lol:

YMMV on the story.

*which is a thing Tie Fighter was doing already, and was present in WCIV, no excuse for it to be essentially absent in Prophecy.

EDIT
forget it, it seems I'm misremembering the game even if I played it a few months ago, somehow I conflated it with the expansion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 10:44:17 am
I remember several instances of in-mission dialogue in Prophecy. Like just from the top of my head the mission where you fight the space bugs with kilrathi help and Hawk can't let go of past grudges against the kilrathi and tries to egg you on to kill them. And a mission in which you fly with Blair, there was talking in there. I also remember prophecy against having a bit more mission variety to it than WC3 and 4 did. (Which is not a hard feat or anything, but just saying)
I never really understood why WC5 seems to be **** on so hard, even when I replayed it a few years back I felt it held up pretty well for itself.

(Am I misunderstanding your post?)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 18, 2016, 10:51:17 am
I remember several instances of in-mission dialogue in Prophecy. Like just from the top of my head the mission where you fight the space bugs with kilrathi help and Hawk can't let go of past grudges against the kilrathi and tries to egg you on to kill them. And a mission in which you fly with Blair, there was talking in there. I also remember prophecy against having a bit more mission variety to it than WC3 and 4 did. (Which is not a hard feat or anything, but just saying)
I never really understood why WC5 seems to be **** on so hard, even when I replayed it a few years back I felt it held up pretty well for itself.

(Am I misunderstanding your post?)

Sorry, I confused the thing with its expansion, I played it only recently but I'm already starting to forget it.

The problem with Profecy's gameplay is that is has a lot of padding in the missions, the dogfights are long and often excruciating particularly because enemy fighters are very tough and abuse their infinite afterburner.
Also, I remember very few missions which weren't search and destroy and the few that weren't were hampered by the lack of tactical target hotkeys, also the energy managment is even more **** than in Wing Commander 3 with one of the worst radial menus I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 10:57:51 am
There was a leaked script a while back
I've seen only fragments of it, and as much as I love tearing into Starcitizen nowdays, the bits I did see didn't seem all that bad to me. Then again I am well aware I have no writer credentials so I am ill qualified to make any actual statements about the quality and merit of the writing itself.

I'm still laughing at that "timeline". That **** screams "NO BRAINS ALLOAAWD HEARE" like nothing else. *


* "Hello this is the future and it's amazing! It's so ****ing snappy and so ****ing amazing technologically THAT EVERYTHING REMOTELY INTERESTING TAKES A THOUSAND YEARS TO UNFOLD.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on July 18, 2016, 11:08:34 am
I just want to touch on that figure of 117M for a moment. Holy ****. Last time I paid attention to their cash it was when it broke 100M. It just keeps rolling in. It never stops. Just what would it take to stop the millions and millions rolling in? How long can it possibly continue?

... Am I the only one in this thread who did not back this project?
I didn't back it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 11:15:40 am
From 2013, Star Citizen forums

Quote
I have to say, in that regard, there is a grain of truth about the notion that FS2 had something to do with the decline. As you point out, The Freespace series was a very specific kind of game, with a very impersonal story. I never got around to playing FS2, but I did watch the endgame movies a couple of years back, and I couldn't help guffawing upon hearing some great big admiral eulogising the heroic sacrifice of... Alpha One. Jeepers, you'd think an admiral would know the names of the people serving under him...

Anyway, I am convinced that the lack of story in the Freespace series was one of the causes of the abysmal sales of the sequel. With any Wing Commander game, you'd have a hefty chunk of players who weren't really that into the gameplay - but they loved the story. Freespace offered nothing to them, they may have bought the first game because they thought it looked interesting, but the sequel? No point.

To be fair, most people there are daydreaming with nostalgia about Freespace, but I just find these pearls of wisdom hilarious. And it's as if they're trying to tell us point blank what exactly is going wrong with Star Citizen. Yes, mr. Wisdom, Star Citizen is trying to be a movie, just like Wing Commander. And yeah, who cares about gameplay, we're in this for the story and that's the only thing that drives sales, amirite? And to sell a story, you know what's the best thing evah?

Immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 11:23:39 am

I'm still laughing at that "timeline". That **** screams "NO BRAINS ALLOAAWD HEARE" like nothing else. *


* "Hello this is the future and it's amazing! It's so ****ing snappy and so ****ing amazing technologically THAT EVERYTHING REMOTELY INTERESTING TAKES A THOUSAND YEARS TO UNFOLD.
Every time I am reminded how far ahead in the future this is suppose to take place I shake my head. ****ing nothing shown in the game looks like it'd fit like 900 years into the future.

Sorry, I confused the thing with its expansion, I played it only recently but I'm already starting to forget it.

The problem with Profecy's gameplay is that is has a lot of padding in the missions, the dogfights are long and often excruciating particularly because enemy fighters are very tough and abuse their infinite afterburner.
Also, I remember very few missions which weren't search and destroy and the few that weren't were hampered by the lack of tactical target hotkeys, also the energy managment is even more **** than in Wing Commander 3 with one of the worst radial menus I've ever seen.
Those expansion missions huh... I mean, yes I absolutely agree that they were like bland and uninteresting etc etc. But I do feel like I have to make a note in its defense. Back in the way when those expansion missions of prophecy were released, the internet was like 99% dail up modem connections, and they were releasing those expansion episodes for free on the internet (I didnt even have internet back then, but I got them on one of those cd-rom's stuffed with game demo's from the gamemagazine I was subscribed to). So naturally they had to keep the file size down by a lot. So that definitely shows in the quality of it all.

The problem you describe with prophecy's gameplay was basically the staple of the wingcommander series as a whole though, search and destroy missions that were long and drawn out, going from nav point to nav point. It seems unfair to me to single wc5's out on it when the previous titles did the same **** (I am not specifically accusing you of doing this btw, just saying it as a general remark).

And lol energy managment in wingcommander. I just never used it, because lol.

And while still on the subject of WC5, there is actually one specific thing I loved about it that I wish freespace would have done. When two fighters both have working shields and they collide, they bounce of each other's shields. Collisions in WC3 and 4 were excessively destructive.
I think there was sort of a plan by volition to do that since from the sounds.tbl there is this line:
$Name:   53   s_hit_1.ogg,      0, 0.70, 1, 100, 200   ; * shield ship-ship collide overlay sound (3d sound)
The actual sound file for it barely sounds any different though.

I just want to touch on that figure of 117M for a moment. Holy ****. Last time I paid attention to their cash it was when it broke 100M. It just keeps rolling in. It never stops. Just what would it take to stop the millions and millions rolling in? How long can it possibly continue?
As long as they can keep the whales invested with dreams and ship concept .jpeg's...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 11:28:38 am
Immersion.
(https://i.imgur.com/Lx1nO0m.png)

Running ruins immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 18, 2016, 11:44:42 am
Probably why WoW died. Everyone was running around until the collective immersion was shattered and the game failed. That's why Star Citizen is already implementing anti-anti-immersion measures to keep everyone's immersion intact and realism at maximum.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 18, 2016, 11:57:35 am
I just want to touch on that figure of 117M for a moment. Holy ****. Last time I paid attention to their cash it was when it broke 100M. It just keeps rolling in. It never stops. Just what would it take to stop the millions and millions rolling in? How long can it possibly continue?

... Am I the only one in this thread who did not back this project?
I didn't back it.
Neither did I.


I'm still laughing at that "timeline". That **** screams "NO BRAINS ALLOAAWD HEARE" like nothing else. *


* "Hello this is the future and it's amazing! It's so ****ing snappy and so ****ing amazing technologically THAT EVERYTHING REMOTELY INTERESTING TAKES A THOUSAND YEARS TO UNFOLD.
Every time I am reminded how far ahead in the future this is suppose to take place I shake my head. ****ing nothing shown in the game looks like it'd fit like 900 years into the future.

Sorry, I confused the thing with its expansion, I played it only recently but I'm already starting to forget it.

The problem with Profecy's gameplay is that is has a lot of padding in the missions, the dogfights are long and often excruciating particularly because enemy fighters are very tough and abuse their infinite afterburner.
Also, I remember very few missions which weren't search and destroy and the few that weren't were hampered by the lack of tactical target hotkeys, also the energy managment is even more **** than in Wing Commander 3 with one of the worst radial menus I've ever seen.
Those expansion missions huh... I mean, yes I absolutely agree that they were like bland and uninteresting etc etc. But I do feel like I have to make a note in its defense. Back in the way when those expansion missions of prophecy were released, the internet was like 99% dail up modem connections, and they were releasing those expansion episodes for free on the internet (I didnt even have internet back then, but I got them on one of those cd-rom's stuffed with game demo's from the gamemagazine I was subscribed to). So naturally they had to keep the file size down by a lot. So that definitely shows in the quality of it all.

The problem you describe with prophecy's gameplay was basically the staple of the wingcommander series as a whole though, search and destroy missions that were long and drawn out, going from nav point to nav point. It seems unfair to me to single wc5's out on it when the previous titles did the same **** (I am not specifically accusing you of doing this btw, just saying it as a general remark).

And lol energy managment in wingcommander. I just never used it, because lol.

The enemy fighters in the other Wing Commander games didn't abuse the afterburner as much and were more fragile. The expansion had plenty of dialogues in CGI cutscenes, I wouldn't even have mentioned it if they put those same dialogues during an empty navpoint or at mission start, with all that expository bull**** they could have scattered it through missions and mantain the same file size.

Also the mission design is one of the weak points of the wing commander games, I played them all and apart from a few variations in WC2 and WC4 there is little to no variation, having grown up with X-wing and Freespace I'm used to much better, it's excusable for the first game but WC3 came out the same year as Tie Fighter for crying out loud! Of course it has pretty graphics (TM)  and Mark Hamill, but the game design is still primitive.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 12:04:03 pm
I think the biggest problem with Chris's writing is the lack of solid characterization. Everyone is either "good" or "an asshole". I watched through the first half of the Prophecy "movie" on Youtube, and it was the same bull**** "new kid vs. schoolyard bully". Everyone talks to each other like they hate them/the player but are just so close to being endeared by them.

No spoiler in this, but you can see this pattern in the leaked SQ42 script:

Quote
[E1C08S14]
[Cara Web Webster]: "And everything showed green?"
[Graham Yury]: "Yes. All points above the passline. Almost like I know what I'm doing. What are you doing here, Web? Do you not trust me or something?"
[Cara Web Webster]: "I trust you, but this is an important mission."
[Graham Yury]: "They're all important missions. I can handle this."
[Cara Web Webster]: "Of course you can, but I figured I could help. You check the stabilizers yet?"
[Graham Yury]: "Yes. I recalibrated them."
[Cara Web Webster]: "I'll just give them a quick look."

Chris only knows how to write "sarcasm" and "new-kid cum hero", and I feel like most of his scripts are tough-guy Mary-sues.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 12:08:23 pm
I actually think that interaction is funny.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 12:10:10 pm
To each their own - but go take a look at Prophecy or the Wing Commander movie for Chris' abilities at writing characters. Remember the movie version of "Maniac"?

To me all of his stuff strikes me as someone who's trying to write somewhat realistic military fiction without having actually interacted with anyone in the military and only learned how they talk from watching other movies.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 12:18:07 pm
You don't really need to convince me of anything of that sort, you're preaching to the choir here. My expectations are below zero. And just to prove my point...

There's this. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Wing_commander_post.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 12:34:09 pm
The enemy fighters in the other Wing Commander games didn't abuse the afterburner as much and were more fragile.
The afterburner usage actually changed a whole lot between difficulty settings. For example in WC3, the Darket and Dralthi used an ai setting that was a step lower than the ai that the Vaktoth standard came with. Despite being the slowest of the three, the Vaktoth was a lot harder to take down because it did a lot more maneuvering on the default difficulty setting. If you upped the difficulty, the Darket and Dralthi started using the same ai setting and it suddenly became a lot harder to keep up with them.

The expansion had plenty of dialogues in CGI cutscenes, I wouldn't even have mentioned it if they put those same dialogues during an empty navpoint or at mission start, with all that expository bull**** they could have scattered it through missions and mantain the same file size.
Ah I didn't remember that too well. In that case I definitely agree there, should have just moved that into in mission sound bits, would have kept the size down a lot.
Then again, I guess they felt like they had to live up to what fans expected of the WC series and you can't have like 'no onboad dialogue'.

Also the mission design is one of the weak points of the wing commander games, I played them all and apart from a few variations in WC2 and WC4 there is little to no variation, having grown up with X-wing and Freespace I'm used to much better, it's excusable for the first game but WC3 came out the same year as Tie Fighter for crying out loud! Of course it has pretty graphics (TM)  and Mark Hamill, but the game design is still primitive.
Yes, that is what I was saying. I am glad you agree.
And then I mentioned that I remember WC5 having a bit more (not a lot) creativity with its mission design compared to the other titles.

I think the biggest problem with Chris's writing is the lack of solid characterization. Everyone is either "good" or "an asshole". I watched through the first half of the Prophecy "movie" on Youtube, and it was the same bull**** "new kid vs. schoolyard bully". Everyone talks to each other like they hate them/the player but are just so close to being endeared by them.

No spoiler in this, but you can see this pattern in the leaked SQ42 script:

Quote
[E1C08S14]
[Cara Web Webster]: "And everything showed green?"
[Graham Yury]: "Yes. All points above the passline. Almost like I know what I'm doing. What are you doing here, Web? Do you not trust me or something?"
[Cara Web Webster]: "I trust you, but this is an important mission."
[Graham Yury]: "They're all important missions. I can handle this."
[Cara Web Webster]: "Of course you can, but I figured I could help. You check the stabilizers yet?"
[Graham Yury]: "Yes. I recalibrated them."
[Cara Web Webster]: "I'll just give them a quick look."

Chris only knows how to write "sarcasm" and "new-kid cum hero", and I feel like most of his scripts are tough-guy Mary-sues.
Honest opinion: I like this bit of dialogue. Its clear you dislike it, but objectively, do you think this is bad writing?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 18, 2016, 12:47:28 pm
It effectively communicates that the new guy protagonist has to prove himself to the competent woman who will eventually subordinate herself to him narratively, which is a beat that has been written 386,988,045 times before (such as the intros to WCP and the Wing Commander Cinematic Mistake)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 12:56:05 pm
I mean...Battuta's right. It's also one of those things that depending on the tone of the actors, the meaning could be changed as well - rather than being funny, I got a vibe of "annoyed and pissed off" from most of the dialogue.

I didn't go through the script in great detail, it just felt like the same plot that I've seen in other WC games from reading the brief spurts of dialogue and how the "Old Man" kept referring to the player as "kid". I could be wrong, it just feels derivative.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2016, 01:29:07 pm
Everything that is a cliché is derivative. If I were annoyed by clichés, I wouldn't be able to watch 99.99% of **** out there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 18, 2016, 01:32:51 pm
Mad Men went a bunch of seasons while keeping every conversation fresh and engaging, even in the very very saturated space of "petty people quip in an office and have bad love lives". Execution is everything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 18, 2016, 02:00:24 pm
Well, part of the point for the Wing Commander games is being Top Gun IN SPACE with a dash of Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars but yes, there is something naive about Roberts' writing, the guy has a bit of a problem with sfumatures and his cliché storm narratives aren't as self-aware as say, Mass Effect.

I mean, I don't even think Roberts may have conceived characters going "Oh my god what have we done" like at the end of Wing Commander Saga.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 03:01:50 pm
I only played 4 and that was awhile ago. What ended up happening?

But I think you're right. The big problem with his writing is that it's simplistic military hero cliche's without being self-aware enough to understand that they're simplistic. They're written as simple teenage boy war stories but read with the conviction of a self-reflective multi-gender view of the world at large.

I don't mean to turn this into a gender debate, it's just the cliche audience for this sort of war-hero stuff is a 10-15 year old boy who likes to play soldiers in his backyard. If the stories had any self awareness they would actually work really well with this, but they don't.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 18, 2016, 03:12:16 pm
Plus his big series-encompassing adversaries are quite literally a race of furries.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 18, 2016, 03:17:51 pm
I only played 4 and that was awhile ago. What ended up happening?

Wing Commander Saga is a fangame based on FSopen, it's a story that runs parallel to Wing Commander 3 and let's just say that the method used in that game to end the war with the Kilrathi was very drastic* and during the last mission of the fangame some of the pilots when the hear they news of Blair's success have that reaction.

*
Spoiler:
The humans blew up the Kilrathi home planet killing billions of civilians, the emperor and most of the ruling class. Blair launched the doomsday device himself, a bomb that caused such a powerful earthquake that it tore the planet apart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 03:42:57 pm
To play devil's advocate here for a bit:

It effectively communicates that the new guy protagonist has to prove himself to the competent woman who will eventually subordinate herself to him narratively, which is a beat that has been written 386,988,045 times before (such as the intros to WCP and the Wing Commander Cinematic Mistake)
We cannot conclude that this is what will happen from just this snippet.

Mad Men went a bunch of seasons while keeping every conversation fresh and engaging, even in the very very saturated space of "petty people quip in an office and have bad love lives". Execution is everything.
We do not know if Crobert's execution of this will be awful. He's a decade older now, he very well could have learned a whole bunch of new tricks.

I only played 4 and that was awhile ago. What ended up happening?

But I think you're right. The big problem with his writing is that it's simplistic military hero cliche's without being self-aware enough to understand that they're simplistic. They're written as simple teenage boy war stories but read with the conviction of a self-reflective multi-gender view of the world at large.

I don't mean to turn this into a gender debate, it's just the cliche audience for this sort of war-hero stuff is a 10-15 year old boy who likes to play soldiers in his backyard. If the stories had any self awareness they would actually work really well with this, but they don't.
I was a 10-15 year old boy when I played WC3 and WC4. I liked to play with toy soldiers and play soldiers in the forest. I was the cliche audience.
I absolutely loved WC back in the day.
This is not a bad thing.

Plus his big series-encompassing adversaries are quite literally a race of furries.
This is not a bad thing. Space cats are cool. Cats are cool
Humans dressing up in fursuits is... arguably not really cool. But that's not what they were.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2016, 04:05:30 pm
P.S. I actually think you guys are right and Croberts is most likely a one trick pony and SQ42's story will be completely generic and cliche.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 18, 2016, 08:41:42 pm
It's not a bad thing then, and it's not a bad thing now. I just have a feeling that his story is not going to be very deep and won't have lasting value.

That being said, his target market is iffy and I think it's gonna end up with an Episode 1 thing in reverse - ostensibly it's for adults but it ends up being for kids. Sort of like CoD but with worse dialogue.

I'm downloading the installer now...24 gigs is...a lot, but I pledged $40 like 3 or 4 years ago so I might as well see what that money has been used for.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 19, 2016, 04:45:05 am
But hey at least the protags won't be alpha 1, so at least this game will have a story, unlike FreeSpace 2, and we all know that is what sells games.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 19, 2016, 08:11:54 am
So I downloaded it.

Oh. My. God. I can't believe I waited so long!!!!!!!!! This game is AWESOME!

I mean, I thought Goat Simulator was the king when it came to funny gameplay and quirky bugs, but Star Citizen, wow. Well I mean, it was great when I would get playable framerates, right now it's kind of like...not? I also had to unplug my 3D Mouse, Xbox 360 Controller, and Joystick, otherwise the ship would spin in circles.

I tried to fix it but I found that the key mappings were not only unchangeable, but I had to navigate them by a pictographic keyboard layout that I hovered my mouse over.

This game is super innovative, because while most *plebian* games would have "slow down" and "reverse thrust" mapped to the same key, in Star Citizen it does away with all that and has the S key for slow down and then Alt-S key to reverse. It's like they didn't play any other space games, allowing them to innovate more fully!

Anyway, the first time I spawned I ran through the window into open space, then got in someone else's spaceship. I was all set to hijack it but I immediately fell through the floor. So instead I tried again, and this time I just kept running at the locked door to the cockpit, until I clipped through it enough to "Use" the chair.

I got in and immediately started spinning wildly out of control, eventually crashing and dying.

I respawned and woke up in my bed, then I was like, hey, maybe I should actually try putting on a spacesuit this time. So I went to the airlock. Then I thought that was lame, but I went to the external view and found out I had no body!

So I tried to go through the window again. This time I did, but got stuck on some geometry and couldn't move.

So I quit to the menu and started again. This time I actually got in my own ship (an Aurora), and figured out the jump drive. I jumped to some place, and found another ship. So I started shooting them - at least, I think I did: at 1280 x 720 (the only resolution I get some decent FPS on), I couldn't actually see my laser bolts. But they turned to attack me so I think I was doing something. We went at it, and it was some of the most gripping laser blasting I've ever played. We charged, then collided....then I went spinning off into nowhere at an impossible rate, where the entire universe was a blur. I couldn't regain control, so I decided to bail out. I got out of my chair, and turned around, frantically trying to find the exit.

But Star Citizen must have some sort of super-AI in ever ship that knows exactly what I want, because no sooner did I orient myself then I just popped out of my spaceship by clipping through one of the walls. I watched as my Aurora frantically spun itself outwards into oblivion, then the game crashed.

$117 million dollars! 4 years of development! FIDELICIOUS!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 19, 2016, 08:32:17 am
I tried to fix it but I found that the key mappings were not only unchangeable, but I had to navigate them by a pictographic keyboard layout that I hovered my mouse over.

This game is super innovative, because while most *plebian* games would have "slow down" and "reverse thrust" mapped to the same key, in Star Citizen it does away with all that and has the S key for slow down and then Alt-S key to reverse. It's like they didn't play any other space games, allowing them to innovate more fully!

You can change the key mappings by clicking on advanced customization button.

S key is used for applying thrust in backwards direction, which obviously can be used to both slow down and then to reverse in a continuous motion, just like in most other space games. Thats how it should be. At least thats the default for me, not sure what the problem is on your end.

Devs have said that low fps is mostly due to lack of net LODs, right now all the clients process all the things in the game world, even if they are thousands of km away. It is why performance is much better in Arena Commander single player mode. Anyway, I have Radeon 390X and the game runs around 30-40 fps at 1080p on very high, which is playable, but very much in need of optimization.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 19, 2016, 08:37:34 am
The keybinding chart (so lazily done btw) shows reverse as being under a modifier, since it's orange, so I figured that's what it meant.  Didn't see the advanced button.

I know that the network LOD is the issue...not to mention the regular LOD (pop-ins like it's 1999). It's just funny that they decided to go with CryEngine instead of any other engine that has netcode actually suited to an MMO.

Anyway, game is pretty bad, or, if you'd prefer, it's very, very alpha. Like super alpha. Like "this is the first run after they got basic feature implementation in" not "this is 4 years of development later".

But I know you don't care about any of that, so I'm just gonna enjoy my new Goat Simulator. :) See you in the 'Verse!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2016, 08:37:44 am
 :lol:
10/10 review  :yes:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 19, 2016, 09:09:38 am
$117 million dollars! 4 years of development! FIDELICIOUS!

Working as intended. See you in the verse commando! o9
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2016, 11:11:06 am
(http://i.imgur.com/nbG9fev.jpg)
Spider man~ Spider man~
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 19, 2016, 11:19:20 am
That's one of those infamous Dead Space death animations right?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 19, 2016, 01:54:14 pm
What in the **** is that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on July 19, 2016, 02:37:14 pm
Well, the Best Damn Space Sim Ever, can't you see (Where we're going we don't need eyes to see)?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 19, 2016, 04:39:51 pm
Looks like a Vasudan got caught in a blender.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 19, 2016, 08:16:09 pm
Tragic Headz-preparation accident kills innocent Vasudan, film at 11.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 20, 2016, 12:15:48 pm
Ok, so here's a little more positive light.

I hopped into Arena Commander, which wasn't laggy as ****, thankfully. Of course I still couldn't use my joystick, but the game makes a reasonable showing with just the mouse and keyboard. Yes, I checked, you have to hold Alt-S to go backwards, which is dumb, but whatever.

I made it through about 8 waves on my first try. The enemy AI is very dumb, but hey, so is most AI, so I can't knock SC for that. What I can say is that the shooting was pretty fun. It's nowhere near as polished or tight as E:D or Freespace, but it's serviceable.

Positives:
- Pretty, even on low it's not terrible looking.
- Newtonian flight capability.
- Fun and serviceable, if very basic, combat.
- Ships can be damaged in individual components, which can affect weapon systems.
- Complex system controls, adjusting radar range and differential shield management is cool.

Negative:
- HUD is a mess - hard to read, doesn't convey information well, just overall pretty bad.
- Radar is usable but bad.
- Sound is annoying and bad. Pew pew pew pew, quite literally.
- Ships felt a little floaty.
- Ship damage does not seem to otherwise affect performance.
- Stupid controls.
- Complex system controls that don't really have relevance in AC.
- Still haven't figured out the energy management system. Do I only get to set priority to one system or equalize it?

I feel like AC is a serviceable example of what Star Citizen was trying to be. It's like they got about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to creating a space combat game, then got distracted and let it languish. If they put maybe another 6 months of development into it, they would have a nice game that could rival Elite Dangerous: Arena.

Basically it's the first 3/4 of what CRoberts originally pitched: a no-nonsense space combat game with realistic thruster locations affecting ship design. Unfortunately, the thruster thing didn't really make it in. I like how ships can be chewed apart with location based damage. But...yea, unfortunately I don't think this area of the game will ever be finished, because they're so intent on making this ****ty MMO and motion captured cutscenes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 20, 2016, 12:32:11 pm
It's nowhere near as polished or tight as E:D or Freespace, but it's serviceable.

It's quite telling that a 117 million dollar game in 2016 hasn't got the shooting polish of a 1998 almost indie game developed by a skeleton crew with almost zero libraries and two, three year tops of development.

It'd be like saying that the latest COD isn't quite as polished in the "shooting aspect" as Quake 2. It's irredeemable. Unforgivable. Madness.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 20, 2016, 01:13:29 pm
In a pre-alpha release, it is normal that the game is unpolished. Polish comes last in development. And it is doubly true for Arena Commader, which is (rightly IMHO) not the focus of current development efforts.

As for the "****ty MMO", that was the originally pitched idea, not mere arena commander, and also why I and most other people backed. If I wanted to play a simple space combat only game with my ass glued to my seat, Id go play Elite or any other space combat game. SC earned 117 million because it is supposed to be more than that. And Id rather have them fail than to deliver a mere arena shooter game.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 20, 2016, 01:24:03 pm
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ironicat.gif)
Tell us more about gamedevelopment.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 20, 2016, 01:27:55 pm
Maslo:

If you were making a Freespace mod like, say, Diaspora, do you think it's a better or worse idea to refine the way the ships fly before you start developing missions?

IIRC wasn't Squadron 42 what was originally pitched, and then the rest of the stuff was added on top of it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 20, 2016, 01:41:21 pm
The MMO was indeed the core of the pitch, Squadron 42 was just a part of the game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 20, 2016, 01:49:28 pm
Oh. I backed it because he talked about making a space game with physically accurate thrusters. That has obviously gone by the wayside, since shopping is more important these days.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 20, 2016, 01:50:02 pm
rogue system!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 20, 2016, 02:00:09 pm
Maslo:

If you were making a Freespace mod like, say, Diaspora, do you think it's a better or worse idea to refine the way the ships fly before you start developing missions?

In a game as complex as SC, both should be done at the same time, iteratively. Because SC does not use a "press D to go right at 30 m/s" flight model, but something much more complex, affected by all massive parts of the ship in a physical manner, and still WIP. You cant truly polish it until late in the game, IMHO. But yeah, I agree that it should be more polished at this stage of development (particularly small ships turn too quickly and overshoot acceleration, IMHO).

IIRC wasn't Squadron 42 what was originally pitched, and then the rest of the stuff was added on top of it?

No, the MMO was certainly the original pitch. S42 was the first stretchgoal, I believe.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 20, 2016, 02:15:04 pm
In a pre-alpha release, it is normal that the game is unpolished. Polish comes last in development. And it is doubly true for Arena Commader, which is (rightly IMHO) not the focus of current development efforts.

As for the "****ty MMO", that was the originally pitched idea, not mere arena commander, and also why I and most other people backed. If I wanted to play a simple space combat only game with my ass glued to my seat, Id go play Elite or any other space combat game. SC earned 117 million because it is supposed to be more than that. And Id rather have them fail than to deliver a mere arena shooter game.
It's in pre-alpha since what?
Three years?
We are talking a multimillion dollar budget project with a crapton of people working on it, not a single man project like House of The Dying Sun.
It's clear the project has been marred by constant bad decisions and skewed priorities (I mean, blackouts? I a universe with FTL and sublight speeds achieved in seconds instead of years?), the core gameplay stuff (ship piloting and handling) is still **** after years, while Elite had a beta combat demo that was less buggy than a lot of finished games.
Also, the enphasis on poligons, **** that, it's not more polygons that make a better game, a spaceship doesn't require insane amounts of polygons to look good in HD, but Roberts never moved on from his lavish FMVs and needs to compensate with MORE POLYGONS (which means more emotions- Jim Sterling as David Cage).
Now guess what, No Man's Sky is coming out partly because is focused on what it wanted to do instead of being sidetracked by MOAR POLYGONS, the game might be **** enyway but at least they have something finished to show.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 20, 2016, 03:04:23 pm
In a game as complex as SC, both should be done at the same time, iteratively. Because SC does not use a "press D to go right at 30 m/s" flight model, but something much more complex, affected by all massive parts of the ship in a physical manner, and still WIP. You cant truly polish it until late in the game, IMHO. But yeah, I agree that it should be more polished at this stage of development (particularly small ships turn too quickly and overshoot acceleration, IMHO).

I have seen no indicator that the ships possess a realistic mass, though. On the contrary, the movement looks strange and very stop/start, because it seems like their acceleration values are crazy versus their visual size.

I think CRoberts had this original idea of making physically-based ships, but then over time he changed focus to have this big MMO world. Unfortunately the whole idea of keeping the ships physically simulated kind of died out...but not entirely. You can still see it in some of the logic behind making a unique HUD for every ship, or the language in how they talk about the ships as being "high fidelity". The words are there, but the reality isn't.

Also guys, chill out. It's just a game. It's a really bad, poorly managed, ever-loving-debacle of hubris on the international stage, but it's just a game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 20, 2016, 03:25:25 pm
In all honesty, I don't really hold Star Citizen's development time against it that much; what makes me confident that it will be a disaster is seeing every update of the game take a dysfunctional, badly-integrated mess of broken game and feed it further through the meatgrinder in the hope that it'll all magically pull together and be perfect in a couple of years.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on July 20, 2016, 04:14:58 pm
You know I actually went and looked up the definition of "refactoring" because Chris says it so much:

Quote
Code refactoring is the process of restructuring existing computer code—changing the factoring—without changing its external behavior. Refactoring improves nonfunctional attributes of the software.

Am i reading this right? Basically refactoring means rearranging code without actually changing any of what it does?

So when he says we're going to "refactor the netcode", does that just mean they're rearranging it without actually changing how awful it is?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 20, 2016, 04:20:52 pm
What they probably mean is that they're reimplementing the netcode without changing the interface between the netcode and the rest of the engine. "Refactoring" can also mean rewriting a library without changing the way that library is used :)

That said, the urge to refactor is always strong in any decent coder; we all know pieces of code that we know are functional but lacking elegance that we want to fix. One of the duties of a manager on a big project is to curb that impulse, either by starting off with a solid design that makes refactoring single modules quick and painless, or by simply telling the coders to stop worrying about functional code and start implementing unfinished things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 20, 2016, 05:06:37 pm
To be fair (I've gone to the dark side with these words), a refactor can also involve streamlining, which can improve performance.

Not that this appears to be happening given that right now I imagine the Star Citizen code base is five billion lines of sphagetti-styled Fortran or something.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on July 20, 2016, 08:23:48 pm
This thread should get a new title
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date: Star Citizen Thread
Post by: Scotty on July 20, 2016, 08:43:09 pm
This thread should get a new title

It is done.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date: Star Citizen Thread
Post by: Spoon on July 20, 2016, 09:02:53 pm
This thread should get a new title

It is done.
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif)
(https://i.somethingawful.com/u/adminuploads/smileys/gary.gif) (https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/1/b/lesnick.001.gif) (https://i.somethingawful.com/u/adminuploads/avatars/yarg.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 20, 2016, 09:28:46 pm
It'd have been done like... two minutes earlier, but I had to come up with something suitably clever first.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 20, 2016, 10:50:24 pm
It'd have been done like... two minutes earlier, but I had to come up with something suitably clever first.

You pretty much aced that part, so it's all good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 20, 2016, 10:59:14 pm
Yeah I was feeling pretty (https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/7/2/agesilaus.001.png) about it not gonna lie.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mammothtank on July 21, 2016, 01:19:31 am
Ya had me thinking that Wing Commander 6 was actually coming out :lol:

But nice.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 02:05:14 am
Man, the smackdowns are getting vicious (http://gameranx.com/features/id/65654/article/why-i-didnt-get-off-the-ground-during-star-citizens-free-fly-week/)....

Quote

[snip]
But Star Citizen is abominably, unplayably broken in its current state. I say all this with certain trepidation, as Cloud Imperium has already had its lawyers threaten The Escapist with legal action after the site published a well-sourced piece on the troubles Star Citizen’s development has faced.

It’s completely possible that someday we’ll see a full, successful release of the game Chris Roberts promised us in 2012. But as of right now, Star Citizen stands as a warning about the inherent dangers of crowdfunding and development creep. Caveat emptor.

Maslo, if this is what CIG thinks is an acceptable product to get new people on board with the game, they're incredibly deluded about the appeal of their art design and the appeal of Christ Roberts as a game designer.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 03:49:14 am
Isn't it a little non kosher to copypaste entire articles from outside sources?

But yeah, that went as well as it obviously would.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 03:52:50 am
You're probably right. I've snipped it down to the conclusion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 21, 2016, 05:20:49 am
Quote
Walking around the hangar in first person feels… really bad. Your character lurches around like slightly damaged zombie, with some of the weirdest, worst head-bobbing I’ve ever felt in a game.

This is, I think, the best part, because it's not because of a bug; this is the intended behaviour. They made walking feel like ****, and they did it deliberately! Even if they do manage to bludgeon their engine into working, the rest of the game is going to end up like this!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 05:36:45 am
That article is partially right but there is also some BS. Let me point it out:

1. Once again, bugs are to be expected in a pre-alpha. Period. The game occasionally crashes or behaves weirdly, this is fine as long as it does not happen too often. And it does not. Lots of people regularly enjoy long gaming sessions without problems, including me.

2. Long loading times? Loading times are like the last thing to optimize in a game development, so this is fine. In my experience, SC takes around 4 minutes to load from a HDD, which is considerable, but not really excessive. Also, there is a bug where loading occasionally gets stuck indefinitely, indeed. And for ****s sake, it is 2016, get an SSD if you are bothered by loading times.

3. Sabre entry point: https://imgur.com/a/Vwda6

Removal of the stock Cryengine "USE" thingy is just a matter of time, it was never supposed to stay like that for final game. But with SC being as complex as it is, interaction with usable items is complex, too. So it takes time to do it correctly. There was a video of new interaction system in bugsmashers like two weeks ago, looks good.

4.

"5 years in development" (first line)
"Kickstarter in 2012" (next paragraph)

LOL! It even contradicts itself blatantly.

The objective fact is, Star Citizen is 3.5 years in development. Meaning a period from the beginning of 2013 to July 2016. No more, no less.

I said it before many times and I will say it again, it takes 5 years, so end of 2017 is when we can realistically expect a game as complex as SC to be considered "finished". It probably still wont be, but at least by then criticism of it being late and unpolished will hold a much greater weight.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 05:40:34 am
This is, I think, the best part, because it's not because of a bug; this is the intended behaviour. They made walking feel like ****, and they did it deliberately! Even if they do manage to bludgeon their engine into working, the rest of the game is going to end up like this!

Nope, it is not intended and movement feel refactor is planned.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 05:56:07 am
Nope, it is not intended and movement feel refactor is planned.

For something that isn't intended (and that isn't built-in engine behaviour), they took a very long time to come to the conclusion that making people sick is perhaps not a good idea.

And you're also going up against months and months of SC True Believers like you arguing that headbob Is A Good Thing For Immersion.

1. Once again, bugs are to be expected in a pre-alpha. Period. The game occasionally crashes or behaves weirdly, this is fine as long as it does not happen too often. And it does not. Lots of people regularly enjoy long gaming sessions without problems, including me.

Which appears to be more a matter of luck than anything actually planned. Fact of the matter is, if you put out what is essentially a demo for a wide audience, and it still has gamebreaking bugs and unexplained UI weirdness (has CIG never heard of incrementing progress bars on loadscreens?), then you can't really complain about people thinking your game just might be ****.

That a game has bugs in development is understood. That CIG nonetheless decided that this was good enough to get non-backers to play is incomprehensible.

Quote
2. Long loading times? Loading times are like the last thing to optimize in a game development, so this is fine. In my experience, SC takes around 4 minutes to load from a HDD, which is considerable, but not really excessive. Also, there is a bug where loading occasionally gets stuck indefinitely, indeed. And for ****s sake, it is 2016, get an SSD if you are bothered by loading times.

Name any other game that takes as long to load as SC. Load times in excess of 30 seconds are inexcusable; load times of several minutes without giving the user feedback about the game's status is a sign of incompetence.

Quote
3. Sabre entry point: https://imgur.com/a/Vwda6

Is that an ingame guide?

Quote
4.

"5 years in development" (first line)
"Kickstarter in 2012" (next paragraph)

LOL! It even contradicts itself blatantly.

The objective fact is, Star Citizen is 3.5 years in development. Meaning a period from the beginning of 2013 to July 2016. No more, no less.

I said it before many times and I will say it again, it takes 5 years, so end of 2017 is when we can realistically expect a game as complex as SC to be considered "finished". It probably still wont be, but at least by then criticism of it being late and unpolished will hold a much greater weight.

You're still wrong. There's the prototype CryTek built for Christ Roberts, which very definitely counts towards production time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 05:58:05 am
Maslo:

1. tell me more about gamedevelopment
2. tell me more about gamedevelopment
3. I'm happy they got rid of CryEngine's stock things. So so happy. It's an amazing feat. Really amazing.

4.
Quote
"5 years in development" (first line)
"Kickstarter in 2012" (next paragraph)

LOL! It even contradicts itself blatantly.

No it doesn't. The Kickstarter didn't "kickstart" the development of the game. According to their kickstarter page, they were working on the game for a year until they presented their case to everyone. That means 2011, we are at 2016, guess what, it's 5 ****ing years.


Quote
The objective fact is, Star Citizen is 3.5 years in development. Meaning a period from the beginning of 2013 to July 2016. No more, no less.

Gamedevelopment. Absolute bull****. And don't even think of trying to tell me that, even if it started 5 years ago, it started with fewer people, so it was "slow". EVERY AAA title starts with a few core people. They ALL ramp up production while time goes by.

Quote
I said it before many times and I will say it again, it takes 5 years, so end of 2017 is when we can realistically expect a game as complex as SC to be realistically considered "finished". It probably still wont be, but at least by then criticism of it being late and unpolished will hold a much greater weight.

If it takes 5 years, it's now. So does that mean we can already start making fun of their development? Ah yes, I think we can. Especially since they never told anyone it would take 5 years. They specifically stated late 2014 as their delivery date and gave themselves 18 months of leeway from that date in their TOS. Those 18 months are up, that's why they changed their TOS.

I'm sorry, you are just blatantly wrong on all of these issues. You can still "dream" that this might still come true, but from what I've seen so far, this is a trainwreck. It can only go downhill towards hilariousland. For your sake, I do hope they can at least deliver some core game that may not be entirely ****. But what it won't do is negate the complete ****show that this production was. And given all the corruption that is happening in that management, I am 100% skeptical they'll be even able to do this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 06:05:51 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3yvnl8/the_head_bob_and_motion_blur_needs_to_go_away/cyh14l8

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3ocrpx/option_to_turn_off_headbob/cvw0hq8
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:09:01 am
For something that isn't intended (and that isn't built-in engine behaviour), they took a very long time to come to the conclusion that making people sick is perhaps not a good idea.

And you're also going up against months and months of SC True Believers like you arguing that headbob Is A Good Thing For Immersion.

Headbob is a good thing for immersion. The problem is with the type of headbob, instead of smooth polished headbob like in most other FPS games, there is also this annoying chicken-like lurch at the beginning and end of movement. That is the issue, specifically, not headbob in general.


Which appears to be more a matter of luck than anything actually planned. Fact of the matter is, if you put out what is essentially a demo for a wide audience, and it still has gamebreaking bugs and unexplained UI weirdness (has CIG never heard of incrementing progress bars on loadscreens?), then you can't really complain about people thinking your game just might be ****.

That a game has bugs in development is understood. That CIG nonetheless decided that this was good enough to get non-backers to play is incomprehensible.

The game is good enough to get some non-backers to play. Others will be deterred by bugs. This is fine. Lots of early access games out there that are much bigger piles of crap than SC is, yet they get away with it due to being early access, and rightly so. The bottom line is, if you want a polished bug free experience, come back in a few years.


Name any other game that takes as long to load as SC. Load times in excess of 30 seconds are inexcusable; load times of several minutes without giving the user feedback about the game's status is a sign of incompetence.

I disagree,  and this post only shows how coddled modern gamers are. Well, if you want to be coddled, come back again in a few years. There are better things to do than worry about load times and progress bars at this point in development.

You're still wrong. There's the prototype CryTek built for Christ Roberts, which very definitely counts towards production time.

That doesnt count, it was done just for a kickstarter presentation video. That is pre-production at best. Production time started when CIG established and contracted out actual studios to work on the game itself. So roughly beginning of 2013.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 06:14:11 am
That doesnt count, it was done just for a kickstarter presentation video. That is pre-production at best. Production time started when CIG established and contracted out actual studios to work on the game itself. So roughly beginning of 2013.

Pre-production doesn't count? Since when? And why are you ignoring the promised delivery date as stated in the kickstarter and confirmed in the TOS that has been conveniently rewritten?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 06:17:02 am
Quote
3. Sabre entry point: https://imgur.com/a/Vwda6

Removal of the stock Cryengine "USE" thingy is just a matter of time, it was never supposed to stay like that for final game. But with SC being as complex as it is, interaction with usable items is complex, too. So it takes time to do it correctly. There was a video of new interaction system in bugsmashers like two weeks ago, looks good.

Entry points don't always work, and even if they work, sometimes they aren't in a place where they should be. Still, even if you get in the cockpit of Sabre, its controls don't work half the time.

Quote
"5 years in development" (first line)
"Kickstarter in 2012" (next paragraph)

LOL! It even contradicts itself blatantly.

The objective fact is, Star Citizen is 3.5 years in development. Meaning a period from the beginning of 2013 to July 2016. No more, no less.

The kickstarter happened in November 2012, Roberts himself have stated that the game was one year in development beforehand, hence, the game is being made for a bit more than 4.5 years, which you can round up to 5 years. Even if you state that the rounding up is unacceptable a)the game is still in development for 4.5 years, b)it doesn't invalidate his other claims.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 06:19:02 am
I disagree,  and this post only shows how coddled modern gamers are. Well, if you want to be coddled, come back again in a few years. There are better things to do than worry about load times and progress bars at this point in development.

Oh for ****'s sake.

I have been gaming, on one system or another, for close to 30 years now. Load times of several minutes were never acceptable. For the largest time in popular gaming, load times were nonexistant. Do not make the mistake of calling me "coddled" for thinking that a game that wastes my time loading a semi-stable collection of bugs into memory is a piece of **** made by developers of dubious competency.

Quote
That doesnt count, it was done just for a kickstarter presentation video. That is pre-production at best. Production time started when CIG established and contracted out actual studios to work on the game itself. So roughly beginning of 2013.

Preproduction is still production time. Is that too hard to understand for you? Work was done (presumably) to define the scope of the project, models were made, code was written, concepts were .... conceptualized. Development did not start from zero.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:19:52 am
That doesnt count, it was done just for a kickstarter presentation video. That is pre-production at best. Production time started when CIG established and contracted out actual studios to work on the game itself. So roughly beginning of 2013.

Pre-production doesn't count? Since when? And why are you ignoring the promised delivery date as stated in the kickstarter and confirmed in the TOS that has been conveniently rewritten?

Pre-production does not count towards production time since always. It takes 5 years of actual production to deliver a game as big as SC. Making a kickstarter video and presentation is not making a game. Really, it is a simple concept to grasp.

I am ignoring that delivery date because as I said many times, it takes 5 years. That delivery date was simply wrong. SC will take longer to develop than that, especially with all the features added. Nine pregnant women wont make a baby in one month. I dont give a damn if it takes many years to develop as long as the end product is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 06:21:50 am
ITT 666maslo66 showing that watching hours of CIG youtube videos does not turn one into an expert on software development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:23:47 am
Preproduction is still production time. Is that too hard to understand for you? Work was done (presumably) to define the scope of the project, models were made, code was written, concepts were .... conceptualized. Development did not start from zero.

No, a kickstarter video was made. With models of unusable quality and standards, and just a few concepts. Really, pre-production itself did not really start until 2013, too. Production of a crowdfunding campaign was what happened before 2013. It would be stupid to include that in development time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 06:34:40 am
Preproduction is still production time. Is that too hard to understand for you? Work was done (presumably) to define the scope of the project, models were made, code was written, concepts were .... conceptualized. Development did not start from zero.

No, a kickstarter video was made. With models of unusable quality and standards, and just a few concepts. Really, pre-production itself did not really start until 2013, too.

I don't know if you're merely lying to our faces or you really believe this bull****. I'll assume the latter.

Let's get some **** straight here. Production times *always* includes preproduction, and that's what people are referring to. Conceptualization, design, themes, writing all of  that **** *is* production and it takes time. Guess what, they did that work before their presentation in 2012. Roberts stated they were working on this for a year now. If you are saying that this "doesn't count", you're basically calling Roberts a lazy ass who wasted a year of his life. This is simply bull****.

Then there's the matter of the delivery date. You handwave it away as an impossible deadline anyway. Well, I didn't propose it, now did I? Who proposed it? The same moron who proposed to build this giant space MMO with a hundred different systems, stories, Squadron 42, and a million other ****s.

This moron, who has a 30 year experience on building games proposed to do something that you now call "simply wrong". Well, extend that rationale to all of the rest. It's impossible to do the kind of game he wants, and especially so with his (1) lack of focus, (2) incompetent management, (3) feature bloat, (4) impossible to meet expectations.


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 06:39:26 am
So CIG have started development in 2013 for a game they wanted to release in 2014? I knew they were kinda crap, but not that they were that much out of touch with reality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 06:42:52 am
So what you are saying is that nothing from that demo survived. No visual designs, no general gameplay and story concepts, no concept art, no design documents of any kind pertaining to planned features, no plans for the eventual production scehdule, nothing. It must be a remarkable coincidence, then, that the Bengal, Hornet and Scythe look so damn similar to what is (or isn't, in case of the bengal) now in the game. Everyone involved, including Christ Roberts, had brain surgery to make sure that they wouldn't remember anything of what was done back then.

Preproduction is production. No matter if it was only one man working in his garage, or a dozen people cranking out a quick demo.

For ****'s sake, maslo, the Kickstarter page itself says "What you've seen was put together by a very small team over the past year. We felt that this vision needed to be shown rather than talked about so we invested our own money to build the technical and visual prototype that shows just how Star Citizen is going to push the limits of PC games."

In other words, because you seem to have a mental block keeping you from understanding this, people were working on Star Citizen for a year before the kickstarter. It doesn't matter that that work was later redone. It was still work done for the project.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:44:12 am
I have just timed how long it takes to load the game from HDD for me, cold start (computer turned off before). The result is 1 minute 54 seconds. Honestly, if you are complaining about 2 minute loading time on an early access game, then you are just nitpicking. It is fine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:46:41 am
So CIG have started development in 2013 for a game they wanted to release in 2014? I knew they were kinda crap, but not that they were that much out of touch with reality.

beginning of 2013 - end of 2014

Thats two years development time.

It is not unusual to have games developed in such time frame.

Of course, that was before all the stretchgoals got piled on and it was still an optimistic estimate.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 06:50:03 am
I have just timed how long it takes to load the game from HDD for me, cold start (computer turned off before). The result is 1 minute 54 seconds. Honestly, if you are complaining about 2 minute loading time on an early access game, then you are just nitpicking. It is fine.

Which part of the game?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 06:50:24 am
I see. Well, I'm gonna talk to that white wall with a painting right there at the back of the room. I think it will be more fruitful.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 06:53:51 am
I think I'll join you at the wall.

(https://theinsightfulpanda.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/daredevil-netflix-kingpin-2.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 06:54:29 am
I have just timed how long it takes to load the game from HDD for me, cold start (computer turned off before). The result is 1 minute 54 seconds. Honestly, if you are complaining about 2 minute loading time on an early access game, then you are just nitpicking. It is fine.

Which part of the game?

Persistent Universe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 07:08:14 am
Measured my loading times, from the main menu to the Persistent Universe. 6 minutes and 20 seconds. Two claims for ridiculously long loading times, to your one claim of merely long loading times. Another reason not to believe anything you say.
Guys, is there any room next to that wall?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 21, 2016, 07:48:24 am
This thread just keeps on giving.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 21, 2016, 07:57:52 am
Guys, is there any room next to that wall?

No, but I am going to build a bigger wall and make the Star Citizens pay for it!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 21, 2016, 08:13:09 am
My favorite thing about this thread is how maslo's grasp of time is steadily deteriorating.  Two days ago it was "3.5 years" and now it's "2 years" when it's actually closer to 5.  It's like Chris Roberts is a black hole and maslo is stuck in the time dilation
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 21, 2016, 08:17:24 am
maslo is following all of the citizen talking points.  :lol:

Guys, clearly you all just don't understand gamedesign.
- 5 to 10 minute loading times are acceptable
- Development started in 2015, they still have 5 more years before we have to start being worried
- IT'S A PRE-ALPHA
- Headbobbing is good immersion

The list goes on.

My favorite thing about this thread is how maslo's grasp of time is steadily deteriorating.  Two days ago it was "3.5 years" and now it's "2 years" when it's actually closer to 5.  It's like Chris Roberts is a black hole and maslo is stuck in the time dilation
I'm fairly sure Ben has just gathered so much mass, that time dilation is happening around him. In cloud imperium's office, actually only 1 year has passed since the kickstarter.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 21, 2016, 08:22:07 am
Guys, is there any room next to that wall?

No, but I am going to build a bigger wall and make the Star Citizens pay for it!

Why build the wall when you can sell them a jpeg of one?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 21, 2016, 08:50:35 am
maslo are you toast?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 21, 2016, 08:51:36 am
If he is, would that make him a man of many aliases
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 09:06:38 am
Oh noes, the Salty Asshats are everywhere.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 21, 2016, 09:12:44 am
Quote
My favorite thing about this thread is how maslo's grasp of time is steadily deteriorating.  Two days ago it was "3.5 years" and now it's "2 years" when it's actually closer to 5.  It's like Chris Roberts is a black hole and maslo is stuck in the time dilation

Those are different things, tho. 2 years is the original optimistic estimate by CR for a basic SC game (no stretchgoals). In hindsight, it was inaccurate. 3.5 years is current development time. 5 years is my estimate of how long it will take (probaby still too low..).

Measured my loading times, from the main menu to the Persistent Universe. 6 minutes and 20 seconds. Two claims for ridiculously long loading times, to your one claim of merely long loading times. Another reason not to believe anything you say.
Guys, is there any room next to that wall?

6 minutes? Maybe you shouldnt be running such a demanding game on a toaster, then.. pls defragment or something

The Wall just got ten feet higher. Plenty of place next to it.  :banghead:

Quote
maslo are you toast?

Speaking of toasters, I am not.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on July 21, 2016, 09:18:14 am
So, the game is in development for 4.5 years and loading times are more than five minutes long, I'm glad we agree on something.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 09:21:09 am
Late 2017 will be so much fun. The rage. The fireworks. The aneurisms.

Death threats won't be as fun, but hey that's the price of joy sometimes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 21, 2016, 09:47:09 am
My money is on the death-knell being the release of Squadron 42. At that point the expectations get cashed in and they're actually selling a finished product which has to function properly; unfortunately there is no way that they can actually provide that, as it would require them to be essentially making a second game in secret that fixes all the enormous ****ups of the PU.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 09:52:21 am
That will never happen. And I'm not even being paranoid here, Roberts stated it himself right at the beggining. This will never be a "one off" release, it will be an ongoing schedule of releases, with the product never be really finished here. Which is the perfect excuse for not ever delivering a great product "Yeah yeah we know but listen we're still working on it, gamedevelopment is so hard".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 21, 2016, 10:20:49 am
maslo is following all of the citizen talking points.  :lol:

Guys, clearly you all just don't understand gamedesign.
- 5 to 10 minute loading times are acceptable
- Development started in 2015, they still have 5 more years before we have to start being worried
- IT'S A PRE-ALPHA
- Headbobbing is good immersion

The list goes on.

My favorite thing about this thread is how maslo's grasp of time is steadily deteriorating.  Two days ago it was "3.5 years" and now it's "2 years" when it's actually closer to 5.  It's like Chris Roberts is a black hole and maslo is stuck in the time dilation
I'm fairly sure Ben has just gathered so much mass, that time dilation is happening around him. In cloud imperium's office, actually only 1 year has passed since the kickstarter.

I don't follow Star Citizen, like, at ALL, but every once in a while pop in this thread for entertainment.  And this post drives me to comment. 


How the hell does ANYONE think motion-sickness inducing (and I'm not even prone to that) headbob is EVER a good idea?  It's literally the FIRST thing to get modded out of games that contain it.  Go walk around your neighborhood.  Did your vision bounce up and down? 

Ahem.  I'm calm now.  Also, Crysis and Far Cry took an awful long time to load between levels back in the day...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: EatThePath on July 21, 2016, 10:21:12 am
Quote
Those are different things, tho. 2 years is the original optimistic estimate by CR for a basic SC game (no stretchgoals). In hindsight, it was inaccurate. 3.5 years is current development time. 5 years is my estimate of how long it will take (probaby still too low..).

If I had given someone money for something with a due date of 2 years, and then because other people gave the same person money for something else that wasn't even originally discussed as an option that date was extended by at least three more years, I'd be pretty righteously pissed about it. Stretch goals should never be allowed to delay the original goals, and if they do, refunds should be honored for those that pledged before those stretch goals were a thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 21, 2016, 10:23:42 am
Gamedevelopement is ~magic. It doesn't matter how every other dev or industry does it, CIG are doing it RIGHT. Nobody's ever tried to make a game "this complex" before. After 5 years they've already got bare-bones mechanics, 1 star system, and a handful of flyable ships. Doesn't a scope as huge as that justify all the bugs? I mean, the fact that someone promised they'll have 100 star systems eventually automatically makes the code more prone to bugs, you just can't help it: :blah:

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 10:30:46 am
if trends continue, they'll have 2 star systems by next year so idk what are y'all so skeptical about
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 21, 2016, 10:48:23 am
That will never happen. And I'm not even being paranoid here, Roberts stated it himself right at the beggining. This will never be a "one off" release, it will be an ongoing schedule of releases, with the product never be really finished here. Which is the perfect excuse for not ever delivering a great product "Yeah yeah we know but listen we're still working on it, gamedevelopment is so hard".

I expect this will be true for the open-world MMO stuff, but Squadron 42 probably has to produce a discrete release at some point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 10:50:16 am
"Squadron what? Oh that was just a tech demo we once made... you know gamedevelopment" said Chris Roberts in march 2017.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 21, 2016, 02:06:18 pm
"Squadron what? Oh that was just a tech demo we once made... you know gamedevelopment" said Chris Roberts in march 2017.

Squadron 42 Vengeance of the Kilratherrr the Vanduul!, coming soon to a cinema near you!!!!

Wait what? You wanted a game? Who said anything about a game!? I'm in the movie business now! And we even got the Muppet folks who made the Kilrathi from the Wing Commander movie to make the Vanduul, isn't it awesome!?!? :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 21, 2016, 03:14:26 pm
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/756184570660282368
derek smart
Derek smart
DEREK SMART
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on July 21, 2016, 03:31:46 pm
What in the honest **** ?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 03:49:26 pm
I don't get the problem tbh. So Squadron 42 is doing a bit on the Cast Me reality TV show. I don't really see the problem. It's quite clever actually. You get to audition people from a wider pool and probably don't even pay them at the end.

Fill me in, what's wrong here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 21, 2016, 04:24:04 pm
It's really powerful ammunition in the argument that Chris Roberts treats the entire project as a vehicle for him to be a film director again, and mostly just promised the incredible scope of the PU to get money for that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 21, 2016, 04:26:02 pm
It's really powerful ammunition in the argument that Chris Roberts treats the entire project as a vehicle for him to be a film director again, and mostly just promised the incredible scope of the PU to get money for that.

I honestly did not know this argument. It makes the whole "It's a scam!" line of thought make a lot more sense, even if I don't agree with it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 04:33:22 pm
I.... guess it's some confirming evidence of sorts to that theory... but it's quite the scant one. I think it proves much more that this couple has a lot of connections in hollywood and are able to get this sort of marketing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 21, 2016, 05:08:44 pm
It's really powerful ammunition in the argument that Chris Roberts treats the entire project as a vehicle for him to be a film director again, and mostly just promised the incredible scope of the PU to get money for that.

I honestly did not know this argument. It makes the whole "It's a scam!" line of thought make a lot more sense, even if I don't agree with it.

I still wouldn't call it a scam, just complete selfish incompetence and self-delusion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 21, 2016, 05:18:24 pm
It's really powerful ammunition in the argument that Chris Roberts treats the entire project as a vehicle for him to be a film director again, and mostly just promised the incredible scope of the PU to get money for that.

Chris Roberts is the David Cage of the 90s:

I can imagine the same video with Chris Roberts instead of Cage and Gary Oldman or Mark Hamill instead of Ellen Page.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 05:37:06 pm
Yeah, these people's answers to art is "Art is getting better because of Moore's Law", and that kind of sentence is not even wrong.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 21, 2016, 06:00:35 pm
Yeah, these people's answers to art is "Art is getting better because of Moore's Law", and that kind of sentence is not even wrong.

It's also a symptom of a complex of inferiority towards cinema and TV, the high fidelity push with FMV in the 90s and with polygons in the last ten years can be seen as a way to close the gap by people with that inferiority complex or even a push from marketing departments that don't quite understand how videogames work. I wouldn't be surprised if the cinematic fixations of the last 15 years in the triple A environment might be a product of marketing departments who feel comfortable in selling only movie-like experiences and developers who don't consider the new medium a full form of art of its own but rather than something you do when you can't get to hollywood.

And Chris Roberts probably produced the first AAA game with Wing Commander, now it's come full circle, once he had (relatively) limited budgets and publishers keeping him in check, now he is the master of himself and nobody is able to keep him concentrated in making the damn game and he won't be able to stop until people keep buying his JPEGs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 22, 2016, 01:52:55 am
There's no need to worry about S42, it's looking really good:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on July 22, 2016, 02:58:03 am
Gamedevelopement is ~magic. It doesn't matter how every other dev or industry does it, CIG are doing it RIGHT. Nobody's ever tried to make a game "this complex" before. After 5 years they've already got bare-bones mechanics, 1 star system, and a handful of flyable ships. Doesn't a scope as huge as that justify all the bugs? I mean, the fact that someone promised they'll have 100 star systems eventually automatically makes the code more prone to bugs, you just can't help it: :blah:

I think I'm just going to step back and watch the Making of Deus Ex: Human Revolution video again...

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on July 22, 2016, 05:28:02 am
Yeah, these people's answers to art is "Art is getting better because of Moore's Law", and that kind of sentence is not even wrong.

It's also a symptom of a complex of inferiority towards cinema and TV, the high fidelity push with FMV in the 90s and with polygons in the last ten years can be seen as a way to close the gap by people with that inferiority complex or even a push from marketing departments that don't quite understand how videogames work. I wouldn't be surprised if the cinematic fixations of the last 15 years in the triple A environment might be a product of marketing departments who feel comfortable in selling only movie-like experiences and developers who don't consider the new medium a full form of art of its own but rather than something you do when you can't get to hollywood.

And Chris Roberts probably produced the first AAA game with Wing Commander, now it's come full circle, once he had (relatively) limited budgets and publishers keeping him in check, now he is the master of himself and nobody is able to keep him concentrated in making the damn game and he won't be able to stop until people keep buying his JPEGs.

Is that inferiority complex still around? (in general I mean) I feel like most AAA companies have been moving away from purely emulating movies, though I don't pay attention to everything. I've been playing Rise of the Tomb Raider after upgrading my graphics card and while it definitely has its big set piece action sequences, they haven't felt overbearing so far and for me, the highlights of the game are the optional tombs, as with the 2013 game.

It could just be what I've been playing, but outside of some scripted sequences, games have gone back to being happy with being gamey, though some of this I think has to do with open world games being the current trend and it's much harder to make a "cinematic" experience when you've told players they can do whatever they want.

As for Chris Roberts, art often comes from adversity and constraints. I've avoided Star Citizen news after I realized that backing it turned out to be a mistake given their progress and I agree that the ludicrous money he's continued to make hasn't helped get the game significantly closer to its goal. I'm sure there's a positive feedback loop inside CIG that's used to consuming a large amount of money on a regular basis and must get regular injections or bad things will happen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 22, 2016, 06:14:10 am
I do agree with you it's getting better, but there are still a lot of signs of the disease all over the place, and Star Citizen is a great example of this.

Watch that Call of Duty trailer above, it's filled with "cinematic experiences". Neatly integrated with gaming, but still it's obvious where the focus lies.

And I'll even give a prediction: given how VR is set to make a splash entrance in the next years, games will probably even be *more* cinematic than even movies ever were. At least for a while.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 22, 2016, 07:45:42 am
In this specific case it's also that Chris Roberts watched Star Wars and decided his life goal was to mantle George Lucas.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 22, 2016, 08:48:53 am
In this specific case it's also that Chris Roberts watched Star Wars and decided his life goal was to mantle George Lucas.

Only he sometimes makes the out of touch Lucas that made the prequels seem like the greatest storyteller ever.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 22, 2016, 09:49:07 am
There's no need to worry about S42, it's looking really good:

Jokes aside, this is the first CoD I've ever really wanted to play. Here's hoping it's easily available on PC.

Of course, this near-future thing also forces me to make this reference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/Everything%20not%20LP%20or%20Ships/38f7c03eae0c90037f65f552403e3662_zps4xhclkg5.jpg)


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mammothtank on July 22, 2016, 10:24:42 am
I could sense this coming NGTM-1R



Jokes aside, this is the first CoD I've ever really wanted to play. Here's hoping it's easily available on PC.

Of course, this near-future thing also forces me to make this reference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/Everything%20not%20LP%20or%20Ships/38f7c03eae0c90037f65f552403e3662_zps4xhclkg5.jpg)




I was kinda hyped for it's space ships and stuff. But the whole you can only get remastered Cod4 if you buy it with this turned me off. I know they had to find a way to sell copies of something they invested in. But, eh. It made my Lemon a shade browner. If it turns out that its a breath of fresh air. I'll probably pick it up.


So uh, I guess the general consensus is that I shouldn't invest in SC and should go invest elsewhere: Under the Dog or the new Armoured Core Board game anyone? (I actually used a colon! Yay me!) But I doubt SC is beyond saving right? I would invest if they admitted they were handling it poorly and then took steps to actually put more work into the game and step up their effort. I actually really liked Chris Roberts allot before SC... even though I knew next to nothing about him, admittedly. Other than the nuances of the Wing Commander games, that is. I want to believe his team can make it. But I'm doubting more and more each time I hear about Star Citizen's progress.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 22, 2016, 11:26:22 am
(http://i.imgur.com/GBvawTB.jpg)
That's no way to get ahead in life, commando's
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 22, 2016, 11:29:44 am
Meanwhile, the immersion ladders are getting a rework
https://fat.gfycat.com/MetallicSelfishFrillneckedlizard.mp4
Because I understand gamedevelopment, I can tell you that this is important. The fact that the rest of the game is a loving mess isn't that important, still pre-alpha after all. Gotta get them ladder animations right though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 22, 2016, 11:32:11 am
What truly warms my heart is the thought that somewhere in one of the CIG studios there are a bunch of carpenters making wooden mockups of their ship models for recording ladder mocap.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 22, 2016, 11:58:37 am
The 'verse is not a fair place, some commando's only get a head, others only get a body.
(http://i.imgur.com/UX0IVvW.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on July 22, 2016, 12:27:18 pm
Meanwhile, the immersion ladders are getting a rework
https://fat.gfycat.com/MetallicSelfishFrillneckedlizard.mp4
Because I understand gamedevelopment, I can tell you that this is important. The fact that the rest of the game is a loving mess isn't that important, still pre-alpha after all. Gotta get them ladder animations right though.

I think we should be able to choose which way we go up the ladder. If, for instance, I am just going into my fighter for a leisurely stroll, the first animation would be more immersive. But if I am under attack by Vanduul attack reaper cloak fighters on the edges of civilized UEE space and are attacking a colony of 1,000 players, then the second one would be a lot more immersive. Here's hoping they could that feature as well as more ones that would enhance my immersion. :) :) :)

Hidden Text: Show
I've been reading too many CIG forum and reddit posts...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 22, 2016, 12:31:36 pm
at least you still got 'em eyes
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 22, 2016, 12:41:06 pm
What bothers me is that everything is a canned animation, even things that dont have to be. Going up and down a ladder, standing on that little platform, those are actions that should be performed by the player character directly. After all, the most immersive action is the one you perform yourself, and not only look at.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 22, 2016, 12:49:10 pm
Yes, but CIG aren't making a game. They're trying really hard to make a film while convincing everyone it's a game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 22, 2016, 12:56:20 pm
What bothers me is that everything is a canned animation, even things that dont have to be.

Because they committed to mocapping all character movements and as a result still haven't got walking on a flat surface to work right.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 22, 2016, 02:16:52 pm
What bothers me is that everything is a canned animation, even things that dont have to be. Going up and down a ladder, standing on that little platform, those are actions that should be performed by the player character directly. After all, the most immersive action is the one you perform yourself, and not only look at.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Rest assured, time will come when games will give us the ultimate experience of personally simulating climbing stairs ourselves.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on July 22, 2016, 02:46:24 pm
If you don't properly place your feet, you'll slip and need to try and keep your balance. Failing that have a tumble down where you have to try and break your fall an every individual step. It'll sell like hotcakes!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on July 22, 2016, 03:06:22 pm
As far as the new COD goes, it might be the first one I am interested in since Modern Warfare 2 killed my interest in the franchise. If we're talking near-ish future, Titanfall 2 will be coming out around the same time as well. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out and what Titanfall's campaign is like in comparison.

The more I see of current SC though, the more I'd agree that Chris is trying to recapture the glory of Star Wars literally and not just the "I want to give people amazing things to do in spaaaace" way I remember the kickstarter video was talking about.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 22, 2016, 03:22:18 pm
Meanwhile, the immersion ladders are getting a rework
https://fat.gfycat.com/MetallicSelfishFrillneckedlizard.mp4
Because I understand gamedevelopment, I can tell you that this is important. The fact that the rest of the game is a loving mess isn't that important, still pre-alpha after all. Gotta get them ladder animations right though.

I think we should be able to choose which way we go up the ladder. If, for instance, I am just going into my fighter for a leisurely stroll, the first animation would be more immersive. But if I am under attack by Vanduul attack reaper cloak fighters on the edges of civilized UEE space and are attacking a colony of 1,000 players, then the second one would be a lot more immersive. Here's hoping they could that feature as well as more ones that would enhance my immersion. :) :) :)

Hidden Text: Show
I've been reading too many CIG forum and reddit posts...
Well in that case, I'd suggest doing away with the ladder entirely and putting in a ramp.

Now the player can charge up or walk up the ramp if they want. But the real beauty is how much more immersive walking is. That way, your character can walk nervously to the ship as a rookie. Then much later, you go swaggering up that ramp like the big shot that you are. ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on July 22, 2016, 03:42:43 pm
Meanwhile, the immersion ladders are getting a rework
https://fat.gfycat.com/MetallicSelfishFrillneckedlizard.mp4
Because I understand gamedevelopment, I can tell you that this is important. The fact that the rest of the game is a loving mess isn't that important, still pre-alpha after all. Gotta get them ladder animations right though.

I think we should be able to choose which way we go up the ladder. If, for instance, I am just going into my fighter for a leisurely stroll, the first animation would be more immersive. But if I am under attack by Vanduul attack reaper cloak fighters on the edges of civilized UEE space and are attacking a colony of 1,000 players, then the second one would be a lot more immersive. Here's hoping they could that feature as well as more ones that would enhance my immersion. :) :) :)

Hidden Text: Show
I've been reading too many CIG forum and reddit posts...
Well in that case, I'd suggest doing away with the ladder entirely and putting in a ramp.

Now the player can charge up or walk up the ramp if they want. But the real beauty is how much more immersive walking is. That way, your character can walk nervously to the ship as a rookie. Then much later, you go swaggering up that ramp like the big shot that you are. ;)

Also once your character has been maimed in combat, you'll be able to be wheeled up the ramp without problems!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 22, 2016, 09:31:29 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/hmSqX26.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/tJvdirY.png)
Are you guys hyped yet?
(http://i.imgur.com/vCA8Fis.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 23, 2016, 09:52:56 am
New Star Citizen pictures finally showing procedural planets, looks amazing:

https://imgur.com/a/whwyC

My hype levels are on the rise again!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 23, 2016, 09:54:58 am
Star Citizen tries to sell jpgs, news at eleven
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 23, 2016, 09:56:23 am
It's sad that I wouldn't put it past them to start selling planets down the road...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 23, 2016, 11:45:56 am
SQ42 is starting to looking pretty dope
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 23, 2016, 12:29:00 pm
i like how they've made liam cunningham's character look exactly like davos, i wonder how he'll be written
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 23, 2016, 12:29:24 pm
i'll lol so ****ing hard if he keeps the geordie accent
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 23, 2016, 12:33:06 pm
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l41YyMeXvaW9mdqhy/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 23, 2016, 12:33:35 pm
That's looks... interesting... on hlp...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on July 23, 2016, 01:44:13 pm
While the screenshots look really exciting, it's again more visuals and less gameplay. This has been the running theme with CRoberts' development schedule: he prioritizes great screenshots and videos over actual gameplay, so whatever they put out looks great, but still no mention of something as basic as cargo is worrying.

That being said, maybe they have enough money to last them another couple years. Who knows at this point?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 23, 2016, 02:40:24 pm
SQ42 is starting to looking pretty dope
That... actually does give me a really strong Wing Commander vibe. Quite astonishing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 23, 2016, 03:03:45 pm
New Star Citizen pictures finally showing procedural planets, looks amazing:

https://imgur.com/a/whwyC

My hype levels are on the rise again!

It's like a caricature at this point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 23, 2016, 03:15:59 pm
Not gonna lie I am actually hype for COD:IW and it literally looks like someone at EA decided to shove a giant metaphorical dick right in CR's face with it.

EDIT: Serious question why the **** does this even exist? (https://i.imgur.com/V4eJrmm.jpg)  What possible point is there to rendering the inside of the bolt on a weapon that no on is ever, literally ever, going to be able to see working at any thing approaching the speed required to actually see it working.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 23, 2016, 03:19:30 pm
SQ42 is starting to looking pretty dope

This feels so much like what the flight deck of the Victory would have been like in WC3 if they could have done it at the time.

I think Scotty's right. They're actually doing this on purpose. EA Games: Troll Harder.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 23, 2016, 03:23:15 pm
While I most likely won't buy it(because 50€ for a short campaign and shoddy multiplayer I'm not interested isn't something I can afford) it does look interesting. I'm glad they're doing a campaign that has actual pacing and some quiet time between missions rather than just a series of shootouts that almost immediately take you to the next shootout after a loading screen or a brief "interactive" cutscene.
Talking about COD:IW(aka SQ42 that will actually exist) here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on July 23, 2016, 03:30:35 pm
We Germans know more then the rest ;D

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/337355/spoiler-pc-games-at-foundry-42-germany-german-with-english-summary-spoiler
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 23, 2016, 03:45:43 pm
EDIT: Serious question why the **** does this even exist? (https://i.imgur.com/V4eJrmm.jpg)  What possible point is there to rendering the inside of the bolt on a weapon that no on is ever, literally ever, going to be able to see working at any thing approaching the speed required to actually see it working.

Excessive reload/unjam animations?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 24, 2016, 04:05:01 pm
No amount of animations are excessive in the Ultimate Space Simulator 9000.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 28, 2016, 10:00:20 am
It takes 5 years of actual production to deliver a game as big as SC.
Please allow me to quote you on that.

What excuse are you going to find when they go beyond your 5y mark by several years? It's pretty obvious from the current state of the game and the current development rate that they're not close to release anything that could be remotely described as complete next year, or the year after - assuming they ever do release something they would consider a complete product, which would be counterproductive to the jpeg-selling business.

EDIT: don't ask me why I went back 5 pages all of a sudden, I have no idea why I ended up at page 61 instead of last page. Doesn't make the point less relevant though
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 28, 2016, 10:10:38 am
I do like the Star Citizen apologist model of game design where apparently every system in the game is incomplete and broken halfway through development and it all gets magically fixed right before release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 28, 2016, 10:17:10 am
MatthTheGeek, why did you go back 5 pages all of the sudden?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on July 28, 2016, 10:25:16 am
I do like the Star Citizen apologist model of game design where apparently every system in the game is incomplete and broken halfway through development and it all gets magically fixed right before release.

To be fair this is quite common industry practice (but the fixing only happens when producers say "stop adding **** bugfix only"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 28, 2016, 10:34:48 am
I do like the Star Citizen apologist model of game design where apparently every system in the game is incomplete and broken halfway through development and it all gets magically fixed right before release.

What about the very game of having constantly to defend your Star Citizen from the zombie crowds of laughter and unfair criticism from the whole of the internet? Deploy tactics of deflection! Press Alt-K to get the "Have you ever developed a game before?" ultimate attack, Alt-J to engage the "You're just an Escapist troll" subspace run maneuver, and many other incredible weapon variety! The grinding is truly unparalleled and it will give you a sense of despair and frustration like never a game has before! But, if you have sufficient faith, you will win at the end! The end prize is still a bit unclear but... hey! It's all about the journey right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 28, 2016, 11:34:23 am
Please allow me to quote you on that.

What excuse are you going to find when they go beyond your 5y mark by several years?

I wont come up with any excuse then.

Honestly, I think the most realistic good scenario here is that SC comes out in late 2017, fails to deliver on lots of its promises, but is still a very good space sim with the most important game mechanics present and CIG will go on to iterate on it for many years to come, slowly delivering the rest of their features.

The bad scenario is that SC comes out at the end of 2017, is a below average game, CIG goes bankrupt and multiple backers commit suicide.

Both of these are possible, IMHO. But we as outsiders do not have enough information to judge what will happen. At this time, most of SC criticism is Derek Smart tier gossip and trolling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: GhylTarvoke on July 28, 2016, 02:12:03 pm
I hope SC is never released. (Yeah, I'm not a nice guy.) Blind faith and irresponsible game development, especially CIG's disgusting money-milking, should be discouraged.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on August 04, 2016, 07:00:01 am
I don't think that one's a particularly likely scenario. It might be a mess on release, but since part of it has already came out, I think the rest of it will eventually follow. Whether it'll be playable in anything but singleplayer (and even that with a computer from the future) is another matter...

Of course, not that I care about that. I'm perfectly fine with a Wing Commander-style "interactive movie" campaign, as long as it's good. As far as I'm concerned, he could dump the whole MMO aspect, but with that kind of money, he doesn't exactly have any incentive not to waste some of it on that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 15, 2016, 10:08:32 pm
Paywall down at last, I have some catching up to do. Meanwhile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVn0c79H5oE#t=144s

(http://i.imgur.com/gUR9yS7.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/z2H8u8B.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 16, 2016, 07:05:32 am
Paywall down at last, I have some catching up to do.

Jesus christ, I'd assumed it would just be another thousand pages of cat ****posts. Instead, I find out that Chris Roberts married the model from his tickle fetish videos.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 16, 2016, 07:23:56 am
<horrors>

I have no mouth.

Stumbled across this the other day, made for some interesting reading - https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 16, 2016, 07:32:24 am
Jesus christ, I'd assumed it would just be another thousand pages of cat ****posts. Instead, I find out that Chris Roberts married the model from his tickle fetish videos.
I absolutely ****ing lost my **** when I saw these:
http://i.imgur.com/EzsgxBc.gif
http://i.imgur.com/oXyWSfr.gif
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 16, 2016, 07:49:12 am
So apparently they started decluttering their ship huds ... by moving readouts into cockpit surfaces and screens. Which, you know, sounds good at first, until you realize that their cockpits weren't designed with that in mind.

(https://i.imgur.com/LDCFikv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/beph02p.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xUyLXQT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TQCMSc1.jpg)

Also note how low-contrast all those holographic elements are.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 16, 2016, 04:46:39 pm
I have no mouth.

Stumbled across this the other day, made for some interesting reading - https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm
"Other instances have been a little bizarre. At one meeting I was asked to carry Chris Roberts on my back. I happily obliged but generally resent being treated similar to a pack mule."
 :wtf:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on August 17, 2016, 03:32:05 pm
Weird. I didn't find that review, though. Most stuff I saw on that site mentions the project's nearly endless scope (for better or for worse), high (sometimes unrealistic) expectations and inexperienced management. Pretty much what I expected.
So apparently they started decluttering their ship huds ... by moving readouts into cockpit surfaces and screens. Which, you know, sounds good at first, until you realize that their cockpits weren't designed with that in mind.
That doesn't look terrible, but it'd be better if the cockpit were designed for that from the start. Diaspora and X-2 did that sort of thing much better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 19, 2016, 08:39:18 am
Their Gamescom livestream starts today at 19:00 GMT - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/gamescom

Honestly not sure what they're going to be talking about - the latest Alpha is still a buggy, unplayable mess and doesn't seem to have changed all that much from december last year.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 19, 2016, 02:43:48 pm
Planetary landings prerecorded footage, I guess.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 19, 2016, 04:44:56 pm
http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-30s-planetary-landing-blows-no-mans-sky-away/

https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen/v/84518331

SC Alpha 3.0 gameplay featuring Stanton system, procedural planets and basic professions shown at Gamescom.

Star Citizen detractors proved wrong yet again! How can they ever recover??
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 19, 2016, 05:21:12 pm
you remind me of one of the crazier admins of conservapedia
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on August 19, 2016, 06:11:56 pm
"Blows No Man's Sky away"... from what I've seen and heard of NMS, that's not that high of a bar to clear. :) We'll see how it looks once it's actually out, of course. It's easy to cherry-pick the best looking parts and run the game on an absolute monster of a machine that can simply power through any performance issues. Actual user experience may vary...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2016, 06:25:29 pm
Whyyyyyyyyy does anyone still pay attention to stage demos. Somewhere post Halo 2 everyone should have figured out that they are purpose-made Potemkin villages.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 19, 2016, 07:43:47 pm
you remind me of one of the crazier admins of conservapedia

The guys who wanted to re-translate the bible because it was too left-wing for their tastes?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 19, 2016, 07:44:52 pm
Planetary landings prerecorded footage, I guess.

Go watch it. Then you don't have to guess. It's pretty clear what it is imho.

I'm still sorta on the fence about Star Citizen ... on the one hand it has all the signs of a big time scam ... on the other, they are actually making steady progress. Slow yes, but steady nevertheless.

Whyyyyyyyyy does anyone still pay attention to stage demos. Somewhere post Halo 2 everyone should have figured out that they are purpose-made Potemkin villages.

Also, all cats are black.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 19, 2016, 08:28:41 pm
...uh, not really? On the No Man's Sky thing.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 19, 2016, 09:14:14 pm
...uh, not really? On the No Man's Sky thing.



Opinions vary I guess, but as far as I'm concerned ANYTHING blows No Mans Sky away.

Haven't seen such an utter POS game in over a decade. That video that compares the trailers to actual gameplay pretty much says it all. Played about an hour or two then, in utter disgust, requested a refund on Steam for the first time.

Frankly, I can't remember any game that made me feel quite so cheated after purchase.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2016, 10:54:57 pm
Quote from: Mikes
Also, all cats are black.

We're talking about stage demos, though. They're as fake as vertical slices.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 02:17:40 am
We're talking about stage demos, though. They're as fake as vertical slices.

Some are fake, some are not. Stage demos are not as good as hands-on playing the game, but to say that we shouldnt pay attention to them is stupid. I have yet to see any evidence that SC stage demo is fake. The have showed lots of complex gameplay and it didnt look prerecorded or faked at all.

One could argue that what they have shown, while impressive, is all that exists, Potemkin style, but that is just baseless speculation. Anyway, we will hopefully see in a few months.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on August 20, 2016, 06:27:42 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucYhhLwIxg&t=987s

;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on August 20, 2016, 06:53:09 am
Starship movement actually is terrible. Well.
I guess it's a good thing they are making progress, but each and every piece of detail they put in this demo costs money. I feel they will either employ a ton of copypaste or not deliver on this front for the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 07:56:55 am

I'm still sorta on the fence about Star Citizen ... on the one hand it has all the signs of a big time scam ... on the other, they are actually making steady progress. Slow yes, but steady nevertheless.



Yeah, progress. Star Marine was supposed to be a standalone module, coming in "weeks, not months", then it was "already in game", even though no mechanics, almost no models, and no maps were included, and now it's touted as a standalone module again, even though it's "already in game". At least their SC 2.0 was better, but after 9 months since its release the game doesn't have quite a few features from the "live demo" (no manual repairing of ships, no engineering console, no boarding a ship through damaged hull), and it's unbelievably buggy - walls and spaceships hulls are merely a suggestion, weapon models don't load when you aren't in a spacesuit (and you don't need it when going EVA), character models deform into Lovecraftian monstrosities, ships explode in quantum drive for no reason.
Gamescom presentation last year was bug free, and it's live implementation makes Big Rigs: Over The Racing look polished (and it was borderline unplayable on release 4 months after a demo). I see no reason to believe this year's presentation wasn't any different. Parts of it could be prerecorded, parts playable in game, but buggy in 8 out of 10 playthroughs, parts of it 'on rails'.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 20, 2016, 08:14:38 am
We're talking about stage demos, though. They're as fake as vertical slices.

Some are fake, some are not. Stage demos are not as good as hands-on playing the game, but to say that we shouldnt pay attention to them is stupid. I have yet to see any evidence that SC stage demo is fake. The have showed lots of complex gameplay and it didnt look prerecorded or faked at all.

One could argue that what they have shown, while impressive, is all that exists, Potemkin style, but that is just baseless speculation. Anyway, we will hopefully see in a few months.

The issue with trusting demos has a lot to do with trusting the people behind it, as I see it. CIG have consistently proven that they will obfuscate until the sun goes cold and there is a world of difference between what we see in the demos vs what players can actually play. I'm going to go on a hunch here and say that when SC 3.0 is actually released to backers, it won't be anywhere near as polished or complete as what we've just seen. At this point I feel as though none of this really needs to be said, because it's what a lot of us have come to expect.

<snip>
Gamescom presentation last year was bug free, and it's live implementation makes Big Rigs: Over The Racing look polished (and it was borderline unplayable on release 4 months after a demo). I see no reason to believe this year's presentation wasn't any different. Parts of it could be prerecorded, parts playable in game, but buggy in 8 out of 10 playthroughs, parts of it 'on rails'.

The comparison with Big Rigs is unfair: that game is actually fun to play, in its own twisted way.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 08:24:46 am
GUYS, ITS STILL PRE-ALPHA, PRODUCTION STARTED LAST MONTH. STOP HATING.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 08:35:39 am
I want this ride to never end
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2016, 09:21:02 am
Opinions vary I guess, but as far as I'm concerned ANYTHING blows No Mans Sky away.

Even knowing what I do about No Man's Sky, though, I think I'd still like it at the core of its game mechanics; the chance to just get out and explore, with just enough everything else to back that idea up for awhile. When it wears thin, quit the game. But I'd come back to it again in time.

So it's probably not worth sixty bucks. Most games aren't. But I can see it on my list of eternal installs. That's praise of a sort.

I pledged 25 bucks to Star Citizem way back so I could get another Wing Commander style game. I figured that was probably overcommitting a little, but screw it, I've got my Kilrathi saga CDs even if I can't make them work.

Instead I've got...this. Where they've made every bad choice possible except one. They actually did try to reproduce WC style combat somewhat, a bit longer ranged than similar games. Then immediately nullified that decision by exaggeration and use of a poorly considered semi-newtonian environment. I can't see installing this at all.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 20, 2016, 09:35:46 am
We're talking about stage demos, though. They're as fake as vertical slices.

Some are fake, some are not. Stage demos are not as good as hands-on playing the game, but to say that we shouldnt pay attention to them is stupid. I have yet to see any evidence that SC stage demo is fake. The have showed lots of complex gameplay and it didnt look prerecorded or faked at all.


The Aliens: Colonial Marines demo didn't look fake but, guess what, it was.

How can people be so naive? I learned not to trust these things when I was thirteen, but then again I read PC gamer at the time and that magazine was always a lot on the sceptical side of things when it comes to publishers promising things, at least at the time.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 09:44:31 am
It baffles me. Whether Star Citizen is a well-managed product or the world's most elaborate money vacuum, whether the game's main branch is a disaster or a solid piece of software, I guarantee this stage demo is its own branch that a bunch of poor people have probably been crunching on for months.

I remember how excited everyone was after The Division's stage demo. Or Watch____________Dogs! Or No Mans Sky!  Or ****in' Destiny
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buff Skeleton on August 20, 2016, 10:20:58 am
I want this ride to never end

Now that is some seriously Clown Mode ****, lmao
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 11:10:44 am
Reminder that this game is pretty amazing when you consider they only started preproduction last week
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 11:33:30 am
Yeah, progress. Star Marine was supposed to be a standalone module, coming in "weeks, not months", then it was "already in game", even though no mechanics, almost no models, and no maps were included, and now it's touted as a standalone module again, even though it's "already in game". At least their SC 2.0 was better, but after 9 months since its release the game doesn't have quite a few features from the "live demo" (no manual repairing of ships, no engineering console, no boarding a ship through damaged hull), and it's unbelievably buggy - walls and spaceships hulls are merely a suggestion, weapon models don't load when you aren't in a spacesuit (and you don't need it when going EVA), character models deform into Lovecraftian monstrosities, ships explode in quantum drive for no reason.
Gamescom presentation last year was bug free, and it's live implementation makes Big Rigs: Over The Racing look polished (and it was borderline unplayable on release 4 months after a demo). I see no reason to believe this year's presentation wasn't any different. Parts of it could be prerecorded, parts playable in game, but buggy in 8 out of 10 playthroughs, parts of it 'on rails'.

FPS is in the game, Star Marine is not. Nobody ever said that SM was already in the game.

Game heavily in development has bugs, news at 11.. The amount of bugs Star Citizen has is quite low for such a complex game deep in development.

I agree that things such as manual repairs, engineering are too delayed, thats a valid criticism. Progress on basic gameplay mechanics is kinda slow. After 3.5 years of development, they should be a bit further along, IMHO. We shall see whether Alpha 3.0 manages to catch up.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 12:19:49 pm
technical debt
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 12:20:14 pm
technical DEBT
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 12:21:52 pm
TECHNICAL DEBT
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buff Skeleton on August 20, 2016, 12:27:03 pm
Tech debt is my favorite term in the software world. I'm pretty sure that all software made for profit now is complete garbage in at least one way or another, with the Garbage Factor slider determining the overall levels of garbage. I've learned this the hard way through my job. Video games, SaaS, The Cloud(TM), you name it. It's all terrible. Hooray! \o/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 12:42:16 pm
TECHNICAL DEBT

Id say that SC suffers from exactly the opposite problem. Instead of endlessly refactoring, polishing and taking lots of time to implement features properly, they should just make something that works and solve the technical debt later. But who knows, maybe their approach of low technical debt will turn out to be great in the long run..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 01:10:39 pm

FPS is in the game, Star Marine is not. Nobody ever said that SM was already in the game.

False, CR himself has stated that SM is in PU.

Quote
Game heavily in development has bugs, news at 11.. The amount of bugs Star Citizen has is quite low for such a complex game deep in development.


No, it isn't low. Look at any early access game, while they are somewhat buggy, SC is borderline unplayable. Show me one game where the netcode reduces the FPS, where you can repeatedly walk through almost any wall, where your goddamned weapon doesn't render because you aren't wearing right clothes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 01:29:00 pm
Lol "low technical debt"

Building your entire game on the wrong engine is the definition of massive tech debt
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 01:41:51 pm
The amount of bugs Star Citizen has is quite low for such a complex game deep in development.
(https://ibin.co/2sFHHKFNkmif.gif) (https://ibin.co/2sFH0SwPQrWU.gif) (https://ibin.co/2sFGx20a6ltK.gif)
The amount of bugs Star Citizen has is quite low for such a complex game deep in development.
(https://ibin.co/2sFH3aW4SDsB.gif) (https://ibin.co/2sFHC1AYcFKg.gif)
The amount of bugs Star Citizen has is quite low for such a complex game deep in development.
(https://ibin.co/2sFGrivky8uZ.gif) (https://ibin.co/2sFH8GsYzKtO.gif) (https://ibin.co/2sFGhQ8Gzo1J.gif)

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/hehehehe7_zps0kmnbuzo.gif~original)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 01:45:55 pm
Id say that SC suffers from exactly the opposite problem. Instead of endlessly refactoring, polishing and taking lots of time to implement features properly, they should just make something that works and solve the technical debt later. But who knows, maybe their approach of low technical debt will turn out to be great in the long run..
Hi hello, you don't seem to understand what the meaning of technical debt is.
Everything you say is hilarious. Please don't stop.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 20, 2016, 01:50:13 pm
Id say that SC suffers from exactly the opposite problem. Instead of endlessly refactoring, polishing and taking lots of time to implement features properly, they should just make something that works and solve the technical debt later. But who knows, maybe their approach of low technical debt will turn out to be great in the long run..

No, their endless refactoring is a clear indication that they're running into technical debt issues all the time. Mainly because they are always making things that "work" (Just look at FSO, we're sometimes running into technical debt issues coming from design decisions made by Volition back in the day that we then have to work around; A prime example is the interface system, which we would have to refactor in its entirety if we ever wanted to go beyond 1024x768 interface art).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 20, 2016, 01:56:38 pm
they have so little technical debt because they didnt take out a technical loan from the technical bank to fix the unusable output from ilfonic and just threw it out instead
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 02:22:29 pm
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-downswords.gif) so few bugs
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 02:25:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOTVtf4D8vQ#t=52s

It's ****ing hilarious how basically nothing in this game works right
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 02:28:07 pm
Low technical debt, barely any bugs. Its a good thing they don't take the time to implent things properly.

I just don't understand game development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 02:30:21 pm
Can some of you nerds bloody post something too, so I won't be hexaposting again while I show off all the amazing star citizen features? I'd appreciate it.

So immersive

**** the edit button, just post.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 02:31:42 pm
False, CR himself has stated that SM is in PU.

Not true. Please provide source.

No, it isn't low. Look at any early access game, while they are somewhat buggy, SC is borderline unplayable. Show me one game where the netcode reduces the FPS, where you can repeatedly walk through almost any wall, where your goddamned weapon doesn't render because you aren't wearing right clothes.

Early access games usually tend to be complete **** precisely for the reason that the devs are too afraid of introducing bugs and so they get locked down and never get finished. Compared to your average early access game, SC is more buggy but also changes a lot more. Which is as it should be. Also, SC is not really early access, more like complete access, even pre-Alpha stages of development can be played. You cant expect a polished product at that stage.

SC is not unplayable at all.

Those bugs you mention are trivial things that may not be acceptable in a released, finished game, but are totally fine in a WIP product. Most ordinary games with closed development would be much more buggy still.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2016, 02:34:36 pm
Citation ****ing needed for every single thing you just said.

Literally every sentence, sometimes twice.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 02:35:14 pm
Not true. Please provide source.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGreb21dKdg&feature=youtu.be&t=18m28s

Edit: Those bugs are not trivial things, they are problems with the very foundation of an engine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2016, 02:39:52 pm
Not true. Please provide source.

Okay. You, quoting CR, who says "it's definitely in". Fourth post from the bottom, page 46 of this very thread

Quote
It’s definitely in and Star Marine was originally our idea of how to get people to play the FPS before we could put everything together,

Did you leave any drugs for the rest of us?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 02:48:50 pm
Not true. Please provide source.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGreb21dKdg&feature=youtu.be&t=18m28s

I asked you for a source saying that Star Marine is in the PU. And you post a video of Chris saying that Star Marine will be in the PU when all the FPS features are completed. Thanks for proving me right, I guess..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2016, 02:51:52 pm
(https://rorygregg.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/shifting_goals2.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 02:54:09 pm
Not true. Please provide source.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGreb21dKdg&feature=youtu.be&t=18m28s

I asked you for a source saying that Star Marine is in the PU. And you post a video of Chris saying that Star Marine will be in the PU when all the FPS features are completed. Thanks for proving me right, I guess..

You're wilfully ignorant:
Quote
Oh Star Marine is cancelled or Where's Star Marine!? Star Marine was just a game mode for people to play the FPS elements of Star Citizen until we could combine everything together: Flying, walking around, shooting, doing all the rest of the stuff, all together, that is what is in 2.0, that's what it's 2.1.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2016, 02:57:51 pm
It's 2.1.

It's definitely in.

Unless you're maslo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 03:02:58 pm
666maslo666 whats with the 666'ses in your name?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 03:05:53 pm
You're wilfully ignorant:
Quote
Oh Star Marine is cancelled or Where's Star Marine!? Star Marine was just a game mode for people to play the FPS elements of Star Citizen until we could combine everything together: Flying, walking around, shooting, doing all the rest of the stuff, all together, that is what is in 2.0, that's what it's 2.1.

Please read with comprehension. Nowhere is he saying that Star Marine is already in the PU. That is your invention. He is basically saying that FPS is already in the PU and there will not be separate Star Marine game mode such as Arena Commander or Hangar module.

"We will have Gold Horizon, we will have Star Marine, but that will sort of come online once all the basic FPS features are in and live in the mini PU."

21:07 timestamp


As I said, FPS is already in the PU, Star Marine will be in the PU once its features are completed, but is not there yet. Come on, it is not a hard concept to grasp, you can do it! I believe in you!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 03:09:30 pm
You're wilfully ignorant:
Quote
Oh Star Marine is cancelled or Where's Star Marine!? Star Marine was just a game mode for people to play the FPS elements of Star Citizen until we could combine everything together: Flying, walking around, shooting, doing all the rest of the stuff, all together, that is what is in 2.0, that's what it's 2.1.

Please read with comprehension. Nowhere is he saying that Star Marine is already in the PU. That is your invention. He is basically saying that FPS is already in the PU and there will be separate Star Marine game mode such as Arena Commander or Hangar module.

"We will have Gold Horizon, we will have Star Marine, but that will sort of come online once all the basic FPS features are in and live in the mini PU."

21:07 timestamp


As I said, FPS is in the PU, Star Marine will be in the PU once its features are completed. Come on, it is not a hard concept to grasp, you can do it! I believe in you!


Stop being condescending. The quote clearly states that Star Marine was a module containing FPS mechanics. Mechanics Roberts claims are in the PU 2.0, 2.1, just merged with PU, not bundled into a module. This statement of his is clearly false.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2016, 03:17:27 pm
Please read with comprehension.

Not true. Please provide source.

Okay. You, quoting CR, who says "it's definitely in". Fourth post from the bottom, page 46 of this very thread

Quote
It’s definitely in and Star Marine was originally our idea of how to get people to play the FPS before we could put everything together,

Nowhere is he saying that Star Marine is already in the PU.

Quote
It’s definitely in

As everything is not together (for example that nice floating iron sight there is not together with its gun), we would appear to have his original definition of Star Marine. Anything else is just you sliding the goalposts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 03:20:23 pm
Stop being condescending. The quote clearly states that Star Marine was a module containing FPS mechanics. Mechanics Roberts claims are in the PU 2.0, 2.1, just merged with PU, not bundled into a module. This statement of his is clearly false.

Star Marine contains FPS mechanics, and PU contains FPS mechanics, too. However, Star Marine is not just FPS mechanics, it is polished, developed FPS mechanics, and clearly it is not in the PU yet.

Basically, what happened here is that iinstead of Star Marine as a separate module, there will be Star Marine as part of the persistent universe, the main development branch of Star Citizen. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less.

SC detractors caught on this info in a typical misguided and twisted fashion and tried to spin it into Star Marine being cancelled. Well, that is clearly BS.

However, let me say that Chris tends to ramble a lot in his videos and if you dont follow SC development and dont listen carefully, it is easy to interpret his meaning wrong, especially when trolls are spreading lies on the net about this issue. It is good that I am here to clear this issue up.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 03:25:26 pm
it's definitely in

Timestamp, please. Cant find it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 03:29:17 pm
Edit: Those bugs are not trivial things, they are problems with the very foundation of an engine.

I can play the game for an hour and probability is high that I will not encounter any of those bugs. This makes those bugs really low priority and totally acceptable in a WIP product.

If you want a bug free experience, then dont play unfinished games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 03:30:13 pm
However, let me say that Chris tends to ramble a lot in his videos and if you dont follow SC development and dont listen carefully, it is easy to interpret his meaning wrong, especially when trolls are spreading lies on the net about this issue. It is good that I am here to clear this issue up.
I'm so glad you are here to translate Crobert's ramblings for us. I'm eagerly awaiting you clearing everything up.

Paaaaaaaaaaaarp

(http://i.imgur.com/zry8VOU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wirji9L.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 20, 2016, 03:36:05 pm
Wait I'm confused now. You're saying Star Marine is the fps module that won't be a separate module now, but the PU already has fps mechanics and Star Marine includes fps mechanics, but Star Marine will add fps mechanics to the PU which already has fps mechanics which will become better fps mechanics when Star Marine (which is not a separate moduele) is added in?

What is Star Marine exactly then? What about Star Marine is anything other than "fps mechanics"? Does Star Marine add new maps? New capabilities/things to do? New missions? What exactly does Star Marine add to the PU's fps scene that it doesn't already have?



When I picture Star Citizen being released this is what I see:

https://youtu.be/cmnCEYtslHc?t=2m25s

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 03:40:45 pm
That seems about right to me, Buckshee
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 03:45:11 pm
However, let me say that Chris tends to ramble a lot in his videos and if you dont follow SC development and dont listen carefully, it is easy to interpret his meaning wrong, especially when trolls are spreading lies on the net about this issue. It is good that I am here to clear this issue up.

OK, now I'm sure you're trolling, I'm sorry I haven't noticed this earlier. "The creator of the game doesn't know what he is saying, but listen to me, I'm the true oracle of Star Citizen development".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 03:52:41 pm
Wait I'm confused now. You're saying Star Marine is the fps module that won't be a separate module now, but the PU already has fps mechanics and Star Marine includes fps mechanics, but Star Marine will add fps mechanics to the PU which already has fps mechanics which will become better fps mechanics when Star Marine (which is not a separate moduele) is added in?

Correct.

What is Star Marine exactly then?

Star Marine was the polished FPS mechanics module (similar to Arena commander or hangar module), made by Illfonic, with nice animations, stances, a cover system, new FPS maps, zero G combat etc. It is the FPS part of Star Citizen as it was intended to be, in contrast with quite basic FPS mechanics that were present in the PU. Instead of being released as a separate module, features of Star Marine are now gradually implemented into the PU itself. They are certainly not cancelled.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 20, 2016, 03:59:23 pm
Wait I'm confused now. You're saying Star Marine is the fps module that won't be a separate module now, but the PU already has fps mechanics and Star Marine includes fps mechanics, but Star Marine will add fps mechanics to the PU which already has fps mechanics which will become better fps mechanics when Star Marine (which is not a separate moduele) is added in?

Correct.


However, let me say that Chris tends to ramble a lot in his videos and if you dont follow SC development and dont listen carefully, it is easy to interpret his meaning wrong, especially when trolls are spreading lies on the net about this issue. It is good that I am here to clear this issue up.

OK, now I'm sure you're trolling, I'm sorry I haven't noticed this earlier. "The creator of the game doesn't know what he is saying, but listen to me, I'm the true oracle of Star Citizen development".


(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt243/bsmajliji/troll-detector.gif~original)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 04:00:59 pm
OK, now I'm sure you're trolling, I'm sorry I haven't noticed this earlier. "The creator of the game doesn't know what he is saying, but listen to me, I'm the true oracle of Star Citizen development".

It does not take an oracle to know what he is saying, just some basic knowledge about the game and comprehension. 10 for the Chairman is a series aimed at Subscribers, so if you dont follow SC development at all and only quickly skim the video, you then easily misunderstand some things.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 20, 2016, 04:22:09 pm
C'mon guys, be fair. For once I don't think Maslo is wrong. It's pretty obvious that Star Marine wasn't close to being finished either as a standalone or as part of the PU. So let's not dogpile him over that.

Now the decision to release / not release Star Marine is a completely different kettle of fish.

Id say that SC suffers from exactly the opposite problem. Instead of endlessly refactoring, polishing and taking lots of time to implement features properly, they should just make something that works and solve the technical debt later. But who knows, maybe their approach of low technical debt will turn out to be great in the long run..

This comment on the other hand is ****ing hilarious. :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2016, 04:26:58 pm
Wait I'm confused now. You're saying Star Marine is the fps module that won't be a separate module now, but the PU already has fps mechanics and Star Marine includes fps mechanics, but Star Marine will add fps mechanics to the PU which already has fps mechanics which will become better fps mechanics when Star Marine (which is not a separate moduele) is added in?

Correct.

So is this little exchange.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 20, 2016, 04:32:38 pm
Yeah, but that's not Maslo's fault. He's accurately reporting the nonsense that is coming straight out of the mouths of those making Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 20, 2016, 04:33:49 pm
C'mon guys, be fair. For once I don't think Maslo is wrong. It's pretty obvious that Star Marine wasn't close to being finished either as a standalone or as part of the PU. So let's not dogpile him over that.

Now the decision to release / not release Star Marine is a completely different kettle of fish.

The problem is, it was claimed by CIG as being released/merged into PU even when it wasn't anywhere close to that. I agree that what's available in PU right now isn't Star Marine, but a barebones extension of Arena Commander, which had on-foot combat and a sidearm even before PU release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 20, 2016, 05:10:22 pm
The problem is, it was claimed by CIG as being released/merged into PU even when it wasn't anywhere close to that.

It was claimed that it WILL be released/merged into the PU, not that it has already happened.

Right now according to the Gamescom presentation Star Marine is planned to come out into the PU in patch 2.6.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 20, 2016, 05:16:09 pm
Star Marine was the polished FPS mechanics module (similar to Arena commander or hangar module), made by Illfonic, with nice animations, stances, a cover system, new FPS maps, zero G combat etc. It is the FPS part of Star Citizen as it was intended to be, in contrast with quite basic FPS mechanics that were present in the PU. Instead of being released as a separate module, features of Star Marine are now gradually implemented into the PU itself. They are certainly not cancelled.

it became necessary to destroy star marine to save it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 20, 2016, 05:28:15 pm
Star Marine was the polished FPS mechanics module (similar to Arena commander or hangar module), made by Illfonic, with nice animations, stances, a cover system, new FPS maps, zero G combat etc. It is the FPS part of Star Citizen as it was intended to be, in contrast with quite basic FPS mechanics that were present in the PU. Instead of being released as a separate module, features of Star Marine are now gradually implemented into the PU itself. They are certainly not cancelled.

it became necessary to destroy star marine to save it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 20, 2016, 08:20:08 pm
I love it when SC cultists always go "look, progress!  What will the detractors do now?" while the game itself is still the same insanely buggy mess it was a year ago.

Truly, this completely excuses the fact that it's been 2 years since their initial release date and SQ42 is still nowhere in sight, while Infinite Warfare's releasing in 3 months.  Yeah, sure, GG SC skeptics.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2016, 08:27:25 pm
xX_666maslo666_Xx has a bit of an issue thinking for himself on this matter, he just accepts everything croberts and cig say at face value and ignores all the evidence to the contrary.

So a typical citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2016, 09:43:58 pm
Star Marine was the polished FPS mechanics module (similar to Arena commander or hangar module), made by Illfonic, with nice animations, stances, a cover system, new FPS maps, zero G combat etc. It is the FPS part of Star Citizen as it was intended to be, in contrast with quite basic FPS mechanics that were present in the PU. Instead of being released as a separate module, features of Star Marine are now gradually implemented into the PU itself. They are certainly not cancelled.

it became necessary to destroy star marine to save it

:capnpop:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buff Skeleton on August 20, 2016, 10:33:52 pm
Every time I see videos of SC and laugh at the bugs, I feel an equal measure of sadness knowing that so much artistic talent is going down the drain :(

There are some really great people working on the game, clearly, but they're all being mismanaged to an unspeakable degree. With the right leadership, this project could have been something else. A shame.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 21, 2016, 05:55:11 am
xX_666maslo666_Xx has a bit of an issue thinking for himself on this matter, he just accepts everything croberts and cig say at face value and ignores all the evidence to the contrary.

So a typical citizen.

What I find most hilarious  are the mental gold medal gymnastics delivered:

- "Hey guyz, you shouldn't take CRs statements too seriously, he keeps on rambling while on stage."

vs.

- "Hey detractors, have you seen that awesome totally non-faked demo?! and all the super awesome features/mechanics that will be in 3.0, which will by the way also fix the horrible netcode?!? CR himself said it, and it will totally drop this year. Checkmate goonies."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 07:18:18 am
Agreed
The amount of logic twisting and reality altering to get a narrative that fits them, continues to be amazing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 04:01:27 pm

What a good game
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 21, 2016, 04:14:46 pm
It is kind of amazing that not two weeks after No Man's Sky showed how empty and awful the gaming hype machine is the press are right back at it again, salivating over the vast, endless potential shown by Star Citizen's footage of a spaceship flying over a small patch of grey, bland terrain noise.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 05:01:36 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/tjWqRly.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 05:11:33 pm
Damn you local physics grid
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 06:43:32 pm
I love this game so much
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 21, 2016, 09:41:28 pm
After 3.5 years of development

It'll be 5 years in December.  SC development started in December 2011, not March 2013.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 21, 2016, 10:16:18 pm
Wrong, it started last year.
What are you? Stupid? Do you even understand game development?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 22, 2016, 01:52:04 am
What are you? Stupid?
I read this in Asuka's voice and now I hate myself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 06:26:09 am
PICK YOUR POISON
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 22, 2016, 09:46:46 am
Always bet on Duke.

...

Wait, what were we talking about again?  I blacked out for a second.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 09:56:47 am
Wiggle weirdly at wall, break game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 22, 2016, 10:02:38 am
I was bored recently so I downloaded the SC client. While I didn't encounter any crashes or wall glitches, other glitches remained: My Freelancer had parts of it disappear randomly while it was on the landing pad and lighting glitches were a constant presence.

Also, walking around is plain uncomfortable, your avatar doesn't walk as much as he hobbles around like a particularly strange rabbit, and the less said about the obtusiveness of the control scheme the better (Like, seriously, they couldn't fit the most important controls on a 360 pad without using L1 as a modifier button).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 10:29:56 am
Try doing /flex and other stupid emotes, The E. See how you enjoy that immersive experience


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 10:38:04 am
(http://i.imgur.com/g0ibABP.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 22, 2016, 11:52:54 am
I'm glad I didn't buy into this when I was tempted.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Polpolion on August 22, 2016, 12:00:02 pm
Every time I see videos of SC and laugh at the bugs, I feel an equal measure of sadness knowing that so much artistic talent is going down the drain :(

There are some really great people working on the game, clearly, but they're all being mismanaged to an unspeakable degree. With the right leadership, this project could have been something else. A shame.

I'm hoping that if CIG goes through bankruptcy someone will buy them and reign things in to eventually put out a workable product, or at least auction off assets and technologies to someone who would do a better job. But who knows, by the time people stop putting money into the game maybe Elite: Dangerous will be fun, so why worry?

I was bored recently so I downloaded the SC client. While I didn't encounter any crashes or wall glitches, other glitches remained: My Freelancer had parts of it disappear randomly while it was on the landing pad and lighting glitches were a constant presence.

Also, walking around is plain uncomfortable, your avatar doesn't walk as much as he hobbles around like a particularly strange rabbit, and the less said about the obtusiveness of the control scheme the better (Like, seriously, they couldn't fit the most important controls on a 360 pad without using L1 as a modifier button).
Is there anything to do in the game yet? I've been meaning to try it out again but I don't want to sit through another 20gb download just to walk around a hanger or fly aimlessly through some asteroids.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 08:52:36 pm
Star citizen in 3 minutes.

(http://i.imgur.com/X7OlEyE.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 22, 2016, 09:00:48 pm
How do you mangle the cryengine that was designed for first person shooting so bad, that you can't get the first person shooting to not work half of the time?

It makes me cry


(http://i.imgur.com/XgBNvQr.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 23, 2016, 11:29:07 am
the sweet sound of goonsong fills the air of a new game

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 23, 2016, 02:35:18 pm
I'm impressed someone wrote that. I needed that. Nice little laugh and that title card is pretty alright too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 23, 2016, 05:42:49 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/HjamSO7.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/qRFGIFi.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/OfqrcYa.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 23, 2016, 06:19:10 pm
Ah, the illustrious CryEngine heritage... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbOxieWCmDY
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 23, 2016, 08:57:55 pm
Just an alien comando.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 23, 2016, 09:46:02 pm
It's an X-COM crossover. They're Thin Men.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 26, 2016, 05:22:50 pm
Evolve into something... more...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 27, 2016, 04:21:25 pm
Evolve into something... more...

It's the "THING (TM)", Run!!!! :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on August 27, 2016, 05:29:24 pm
At first I got excited when I saw this renamed thread (before I knew it was renamed).  I saw "Wing Commander 6"...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 28, 2016, 01:04:37 pm
I'm afraid you would get something similiar, just without Wing Commander serial numbers filed off, it's the same developer. Hell, even the lore is similiar, WC had scary dogmatic aliens called Kilrathi (which kill with wrath), SC has scary dogmatic aliens called Vanduul (like Vandals, but the person saying the word has a stroke halfway through).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 28, 2016, 01:30:45 pm
I'm afraid you would get something similiar, just without Wing Commander serial numbers filed off, it's the same developer. Hell, even the lore is similiar, WC had scary dogmatic aliens called Kilrathi (which kill with wrath), SC has scary dogmatic aliens called Vanduul (like Vandals, but the person saying the word has a stroke halfway through).

And also not actually like the Vandals how contemporary historians view them :p

At first I got excited when I saw this renamed thread (before I knew it was renamed).  I saw "Wing Commander 6"...

Yup, got me too. It's a brilliant edit.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 28, 2016, 01:36:30 pm
Evolve into something... more...

I answer your video with one of my own:

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 28, 2016, 02:44:10 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/lKkEC4X.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/iy0SJMD.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 28, 2016, 03:01:49 pm
Goddammit Carl?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 28, 2016, 03:33:02 pm
https://gfycat.com/UnlawfulDimpledFly
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 28, 2016, 05:33:32 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/lKkEC4X.jpg)

"YOU SEE IVAN, WHEN HOLD GUN BACKWARDS, EES THE POWERFUL CLUB BECAUSE OF RECOIL"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 28, 2016, 08:36:45 pm
I think I counted about a dozen blatant graphical ****-ups during the 2.5 video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhxC23Tsg1s) that Scott Manley just released.  And that's not even counting the magical state-restoring floating objects that he explicitly pointed out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 29, 2016, 12:54:34 pm
So 2.5 wasn't the chosen patch they promised but surely 2.6 will have star marine and everything fixed in it... right? Right guys? Guys?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Ojg9C62ASM8Ba/giphy.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/jAs0KW4.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/67ff5pf.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 29, 2016, 01:09:46 pm
That's Nappa! Ghost Nappa!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 29, 2016, 01:23:20 pm
That's Nappa! Ghost Nappa!

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 29, 2016, 03:02:12 pm
Hey veeeegeeeeettaaaaaa


It's funny how much better and less janky, jittery and crappy this pre-alpha footage of a much smaller studio, making a game that is a lot of what SC promises, looks
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 29, 2016, 03:19:51 pm
Absolutely savage
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 29, 2016, 03:51:38 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/nnFjeOK.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/8p5Qv0C.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/3JRxi3z.gif)
o7 godspeed commando
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on August 29, 2016, 04:46:47 pm
Welp I guess I no longer need wonder what Goat Simulator Waste Of Space would look like if it had a budget equal to most countries' GDP.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 29, 2016, 04:58:19 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3JRxi3z.gif)
o7 godspeed commando

The remake of Space Odyssey is looking good. :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 29, 2016, 06:00:46 pm
All this doesn't matter, CIG will make at least 4.5 million in August alone. I don't know if people were playing different version of baby poo... I mean PU than I did or something. Edit: And yet, Infinity: Battlescape has earned piddly 300 thousand dollars during an entire 30 day Kickstarter.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 29, 2016, 07:29:54 pm
Haaa...Scott Manley replied to the comment I made about the bugs saying, "You should have seen all the ones from the footage I cut."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 29, 2016, 08:59:26 pm
You spin me right round baby (https://gifsound.com/?gfycat=SoreUnitedDalmatian&v=DnsDbOi6sTY)

(http://i.imgur.com/AioThNp.gif)
bonus 1 (https://gifsound.com/?gif=i.imgur.com/AioThNp.gif&v=NvS351QKFV4&s=71) 2 (https://gifsound.com/?gif=i.imgur.com/AioThNp.gif&v=PD5HfM3DZt8&s=00)

(http://i.imgur.com/RK60I6N.jpg) (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/342414/gamescom-reveal)
Lol.
Just lol.
Everyone, I present you: Citizens.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 30, 2016, 05:22:21 am
And yet, Infinity: Battlescape has earned piddly 300 thousand dollars during an entire 30 day Kickstarter.

Looks like someone is trying to get on the Star Citizen bus. (I wish at least *one* of these games actually delivers).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathfun on August 30, 2016, 05:51:50 am
I keep finding myself considering buying into Star Citizen. One fellow I know consistently swears by it (usually retorting any sort of bug remarks with 'it runs fine for me'), for... reasons... and I keep considering it

Then I keep reading this thread

Then I also realized the price is forty five USD to buy in to which I promptly said "Yeah no"
Course, I was then called an idiot by my friend who insisted he told me about the 20$ buy in from December. Either way, I keep finding myself between buying this and not buying this

God damn are those glitches funny as all hell though
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 30, 2016, 06:05:15 am
There's nothing wrong in the middle ground position: Wait and see. If the end product comes along and it's a good game, well why not?

It's just that half of me is laughing at the prospect they will be able to release such a thing though!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathfun on August 30, 2016, 06:39:20 am
I'm more or less laughing at the part where my friend stopped playing Elite because 1) The upgraded their anti cheat so he couldn't cheat anymore and 2) He hated the grind for everything

And yet he's vehemently defending Star Cit against my questions as to whether or not the game is functional for him and how it's going with it

Ah well. Thing I'm worried about is the possibility of the price going up again in the future, course that technically happens as CAD becomes weaker
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on August 30, 2016, 06:40:24 am
I keep finding myself considering buying into Star Citizen. One fellow I know consistently swears by it (usually retorting any sort of bug remarks with 'it runs fine for me'), for... reasons... and I keep considering it

Then I keep reading this thread

Then I also realized the price is forty five USD to buy in to which I promptly said "Yeah no"
Course, I was then called an idiot by my friend who insisted he told me about the 20$ buy in from December. Either way, I keep finding myself between buying this and not buying this

God damn are those glitches funny as all hell though

Wait for the next free-fly week and you will be able to test it out for yourself, I'd advise against buying in before you do that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 30, 2016, 06:45:01 am
Paying 20 bucks for this mess *is* the idiotic thing to do, though. More than 5 bucks for what is currently being "released" is pure generosity from fanboys.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 30, 2016, 09:25:27 am
I'm more or less laughing at the part where my friend stopped playing Elite because 1) The upgraded their anti cheat so he couldn't cheat anymore and 2) He hated the grind for everything

And yet he's vehemently defending Star Cit against my questions as to whether or not the game is functional for him and how it's going with it

Ah well. Thing I'm worried about is the possibility of the price going up again in the future, course that technically happens as CAD becomes weaker
Stick with Elite, the grind is normal in open world space sims and in Elite it's actually more fun than the other open world spacesims I've played, I sincerely doubt that SC will be any better outside Squadron 42.

As for Star Citizen, I wouldn't give them money before the game is complete and released to the public, they have more than enough money but they are still in a very broken alpha after years, I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 30, 2016, 09:35:44 am
My plan.....

Wait for SQ42.

Acquire an evaluation copy.

Not buy main game.


Profit
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 30, 2016, 09:56:22 am
I keep finding myself considering buying into Star Citizen. One fellow I know consistently swears by it (usually retorting any sort of bug remarks with 'it runs fine for me'), for... reasons... and I keep considering it

Then I keep reading this thread

Then I also realized the price is forty five USD to buy in to which I promptly said "Yeah no"
Course, I was then called an idiot by my friend who insisted he told me about the 20$ buy in from December. Either way, I keep finding myself between buying this and not buying this

God damn are those glitches funny as all hell though
I am glad I offer you perspective. (definitely don't buy into this)

(http://i.imgur.com/ikHvFbS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HUQ6EE5.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 30, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
I've actually seen people post videos of similar crazy player-model deformations in other modern-engined games (whether they were CryEngine or UE4 or something else I don't remember), and the sensible explanation given was that, in games where you'll never see your own model, this can be a way of managing weapon elevation changes when you're crouching or jumping or whatnot.  But obviously here we have a game where other people are most definitely going to be seeing your character model, and yet the same issue is occurring, so...yeah.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathfun on August 30, 2016, 05:01:02 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/ikHvFbS.jpg)

This looks like the Star Citizen equivalent to the facepalm :P

*Facepad*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on August 30, 2016, 09:27:52 pm
My plan.....

Wait for SQ42.

Acquire an evaluation copy.

Not buy main game.


Profit
So piracy is condoned here so long as it's a game we don't like?

If the game is so incredibly ****ty, don't buy it and don't play it. If it's worth playing for any reason, then buy it. Anything else is indefensible.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 30, 2016, 10:02:16 pm
I reinstalled the game just to see if those bugs were brought about by people going out of their way.

What I got was floating helmets and guns everywhere and an inability to use the elevator. And a complete lack of support for the CH gear. And the controls are wonky as all hell. :sigh:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathfun on August 30, 2016, 10:02:31 pm
So piracy is condoned here so long as it's a game we don't like?

If the game is so incredibly ****ty, don't buy it and don't play it. If it's worth playing for any reason, then buy it. Anything else is indefensible.

Who said anything about piracy? Last I checked, SQ42 is intended down the road as being a standalone separate entity to the main game
Evaluation copy could mean potential demo or just demo from a friend
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on August 30, 2016, 10:07:43 pm
Anything else is indefensible.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/GfIcmKflAHAmk/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 31, 2016, 12:39:13 am
My plan.....

Wait for SQ42.

Acquire an evaluation copy.

Not buy main game.


Profit
So piracy is condoned here so long as it's a game we don't like?

If the game is so incredibly ****ty, don't buy it and don't play it. If it's worth playing for any reason, then buy it. Anything else is indefensible.

As a Mod you think I'd flaunt piracy talk here?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 31, 2016, 01:33:25 am
I've actually seen people post videos of similar crazy player-model deformations in other modern-engined games (whether they were CryEngine or UE4 or something else I don't remember), and the sensible explanation given was that, in games where you'll never see your own model, this can be a way of managing weapon elevation changes when you're crouching or jumping or whatnot.  But obviously here we have a game where other people are most definitely going to be seeing your character model, and yet the same issue is occurring, so...yeah.
No, no, not just that.  It's happening in a game that not only prides itself on "not cheating" like this, but whose community disparages games that do it.

It's very funny.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 31, 2016, 02:33:34 am
I keep finding myself considering buying into Star Citizen. One fellow I know consistently swears by it (usually retorting any sort of bug remarks with 'it runs fine for me'), for... reasons... and I keep considering it

Then I keep reading this thread

Then I also realized the price is forty five USD to buy in to which I promptly said "Yeah no"
Course, I was then called an idiot by my friend who insisted he told me about the 20$ buy in from December. Either way, I keep finding myself between buying this and not buying this

God damn are those glitches funny as all hell though

Wait for the next free-fly week and you will be able to test it out for yourself, I'd advise against buying in before you do that.

This. Posting cherry-picked bug screenshots does not tell you anything about the frequency of actually encountering said bugs during normal gameplay. If you have a fast enough connection to not mind a 30 GB download, its best to try the game yourself and see whether the frequency is acceptable for your personal alpha version bug threshold or not.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 31, 2016, 02:57:07 am
This. Posting cherry-picked bug screenshots does not tell you anything about the frequency of actually encountering said bugs during normal gameplay. If you have a fast enough connection to not mind a 30 GB download, its best to try the game yourself and see whether the frequency is acceptable for your personal alpha version bug threshold or not.

But be wary of letting the downloader do its thing unchecked, as it will happily imitate the very worst habits of peer-to-peer downloaders (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/08/star-citizen-got-me-blacklisted-from-our-office-internet/).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 31, 2016, 05:27:56 am
The SC downloader by default opens six ****ing hundred connections and pretty much destroys any chance of any DNS-based service successfully receiving a reply to a query.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 31, 2016, 06:21:55 am
ahaha this conversation is hilarious.

"Look them bugs!!"

"Don't mind the bugs, try it yourself and see if your experience is fine"

"Don't do that, downloading it is *also* filled with bugs!!"

LOL
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 31, 2016, 06:52:10 am
Quote
Posting cherry-picked bug screenshots does not tell you anything about the frequency of actually encountering said bugs during normal gameplay.
One of the best parts of starcitizen is how incredibly easy it is to run into bugs, like literally just try to play the game normally and you'll run into countless silly bugs. There really is no 'cherry picking' involved here, the game is hosed. The frequency = very frequent.

ahaha this conversation is hilarious.

"Look them bugs!!"

"Don't mind the bugs, try it yourself and see if your experience is fine"

"Don't do that, downloading it is *also* filled with bugs!!"

LOL
also this
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 02, 2016, 07:31:47 pm
I mean, this is literally the first thing you see running around planet-side: floating helmets, guns, and magazines...

(http://i.imgur.com/Iyjo64o.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 03, 2016, 01:32:28 am
The more bugs there are, the more it shows that they are actually working on the game instead of falling into the worst trap of early access games - lack of real progress and too much focus on mere bug fixing in the name of being prematurely user friendly. I wouldnt want SC to end up like Minecraft, which is basically the same game as the first version but with a few more boxes, or Elite, which is a game that is still mile wide and inch deep several years after release. Id rather have them fail than that.

You cannot make an omelete without breaking a few eggs. Bug fixing comes late in the development, especially if the bugs are merely cosmetic and happen only sometimes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 03, 2016, 02:28:55 am
The more bugs there are, the more it shows that they are actually working on the game instead of falling into the worst trap of early access games - lack of real progress and too much focus on mere bug fixing in the name of being prematurely user friendly. I wouldnt want SC to end up like Minecraft, which is basically the same game as the first version but with a few more boxes, or Elite, which is a game that is still mile wide and inch deep several years after release. Id rather have them fail than that.

No, having bugs persist over multiple releases really isn't that good a sign. Neither is not locking down basic game mechanics at some point.

Quote
You cannot make an omelete without breaking a few eggs. Bug fixing comes late in the development, especially if the bugs are merely cosmetic and happen only sometimes.

Which would be a valid argument if SC was in an internal or tightly restricted alpha. But as the regular free flight weekends show, they believe this is good enough to serve as a demo, despite very little of the game's end state having been implemented.

Also, as anyone who has ever worked on a large software project knows, bugs either get fixed immediately or not at all. It's a technical debt thing, a concept which you should really try to grok.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathfun on September 03, 2016, 03:15:59 am
Quote
or Elite, which is a game that is still mile wide and inch deep several years after release. Id rather have them fail than that.

Actually, I don't mind this nearly as much as some folks. The story is literally developing in *real time*. Least, that's how it feels playing it
What game can claim it has done that?

Then again, I've put 213 hours into Elite (not a lot in comparison) and I've yet to go "I'm bored"
So as far as I'm concerned, the inch deep is relative to the person. I'm currently inciting a civil war in a neighbouring system to my main base so as to both expand my chosen faction's influence and get a pretty penny too! :P

Though as it currently stands with what I've seen, SC seems like it's going to follow similar to the ED mission running, but also have a campaign as an aside a la SQ42

Quote
especially if the bugs are merely cosmetic and happen only sometimes.

I was under the impression a great deal are game breaking
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on September 03, 2016, 04:31:05 am
Which would be a valid argument if SC was in an internal or tightly restricted alpha. But as the regular free flight weekends show, they believe this is good enough to serve as a demo, despite very little of the game's end state having been implemented.
In case you haven't noticed, what used to be a tightly restricted internal alpha tends to be called "Early Access" these days. ArmA3 was in a rather sorry state when I first saw it (it had a community alpha release I jumped into), though it was more of a matter of being devoid of content than serious bugs (not that it didn't have those, as well). It got added to over the years and I can even claim credit for reporting a few early issues. TBH, if they didn't release what they have they'd have people calling SC out for being vaporware. I think what they did is actually the better solution, as long as the fact of it being an alpha is made clear. They probably shouldn't charge that much, but as long as people are willing to pay...
Also, as anyone who has ever worked on a large software project knows, bugs either get fixed immediately or not at all. It's a technical debt thing, a concept which you should really try to grok.
Well, you can always scrap the old, buggy system and replace it. Kerbal Space Program seems to have done just that multiple times. And some old bugs are getting fixed (seen that in ArmA3, as well). Indeed, it's currently a constant argument between those who want more features and those who want less bugs. This is always a balancing act, though SC is not so much leaning towards the "more features" side as lying flat with its head towards it. Not a good thing by any means.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on September 03, 2016, 05:31:09 am
The more bugs there are, the more it shows that they are actually working on the game instead of falling into the worst trap of early access games - lack of real progress and too much focus on mere bug fixing in the name of being prematurely user friendly. I wouldnt want SC to end up like Minecraft, which is basically the same game as the first version but with a few more boxes, or Elite, which is a game that is still mile wide and inch deep several years after release. Id rather have them fail than that.

You cannot make an omelete without breaking a few eggs. Bug fixing comes late in the development, especially if the bugs are merely cosmetic and happen only sometimes.

Once again, your grasp of software development, and video game development in particular, appears to be rather abyssmal.

Bug creep is a rather serious problem, as they are often symptoms of deeper problems with the piece of software you are developping that at some point will *need* to be adressed. And the more you delay it, the more costly the fix is gonna be. And yes, something that seems as innocuous as rendering bugs can require a fix that ranges from "that one conditional test is messed up" to "unfixable unless we rewrite this whole submodule from scratch".

Trust us, technical debt is a *****, and your software needs to be well thought out before you even start implementing features to avoid it as much as possible. One of the requirements for that is having a clear roadmap with well defined milestones. Which, from what I can gather, Star Citizen is utterly lacking.

What it got is vaguely defined milestones and a heap of apparently highly visible bugs that suggests that some things are rather deeply broken with their CryEngine 3 (which, as others pointed out, is supposed to be a mature game engine at this point).


And blowing off their deadlines repeatedly to the degree that they have is a big red flag that indicates that they seem to be unable to get step #1 of pretty  much every kind of project right : evaluate how much work needs to be done, and how much of a margin for risks do you need.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 04, 2016, 09:23:46 pm
Here's a simple reason why you shouldn't leave bugs to fester. When a bug occurs in recently written code, the programmer knows that code pretty well as they only just worked on it. They remember what it does and how all the bits are interconnected. 2-3 years later, that programmer might not even work at the company any more. Even if they do they're going to have to relearn what the code is doing before they can fix it. This takes time. Time = delayed release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on September 04, 2016, 09:33:22 pm
Meanwhile in breaking news...

Squadron 42 release "delayed" into "2017" (http://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 05, 2016, 12:08:57 am
Meanwhile in breaking news...

Squadron 42 release "delayed" into "2017" (http://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date)

I'm surprised, shocked and flabbergasted!  :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2016, 04:54:44 am
So am I.


That they didn't bite the bullet and delay it until 2018.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 05, 2016, 06:20:21 am
In case you haven't noticed, what used to be a tightly restricted internal alpha tends to be called "Early Access" these days. ArmA3 was in a rather sorry state when I first saw it (it had a community alpha release I jumped into), though it was more of a matter of being devoid of content than serious bugs (not that it didn't have those, as well). It got added to over the years and I can even claim credit for reporting a few early issues. TBH, if they didn't release what they have they'd have people calling SC out for being vaporware. I think what they did is actually the better solution, as long as the fact of it being an alpha is made clear. They probably shouldn't charge that much, but as long as people are willing to pay...

SC is the only game I know of that combines a multimillion dollar budget and unimaginable amounts of hype with an attitude towards what is and isn't releasable commonly found in the Steam Early Access trash bin. It is less feature-rich than the average Unity template resell scam in its current state.

And yet, the Citizens can't contain themselves. "It'll be the last game I ever need", they say. "I sold my house for a jpg", they say. "Elite is sooooo shallow", they claim. Have they not seen No Man's Sky? Are they not aware that they're following the same pattern of a community constantly hyping themselves up and being gleefully encouraged in this by the developers (only with added exploitative preorder scheme on top)?

Again and again, it all comes down to this: CIG is absolutely terrible at planning. The correct plan to follow would have been the Elite plan: Release a core game that's enjoyable. Bundle up secondary features into expansions that are released later. Evolve the game over time in response to what the players are actually doing. That way, you have a good milestone you can work towards, there are goals which can be achieved, releasable progress can be shown in 2 or 3 years, and you can stress-test the core gameplay to see if everything that was promised is actually doable within the framework of the game.

CIG's releases so far, late, bug-ridden and incomplete as they are, have done very little to make the game more attractive to people not already on the hype train.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 05, 2016, 07:04:48 am
ED seems terribly boring as a game (right now), but I do have a considerate amount of respect towards its development process and their relationship to the consumers. If only other developers were as mature.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 05, 2016, 07:44:50 am
ED seems terribly boring as a game (right now), but I do have a considerate amount of respect towards its development process and their relationship to the consumers. If only other developers were as mature.

It is, in many ways, a boring game. About as boring as, say, Truck Simulator games or Farm Simulator games. There are pockets of excitement to be found in it, of course (there's nothing quite as nailbiting as getting intercepted light seconds away from your target destination when you've already barely escaped the previous batch of pirates), but it's very much a "Here's something you can do for a couple hours without too much stress" kind of game, which is just right for me but naturally not something everyone can get behind.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 05, 2016, 08:58:01 am
ED seems terribly boring as a game (right now), but I do have a considerate amount of respect towards its development process and their relationship to the consumers. If only other developers were as mature.
That's what I thought too (I got bored with the X games, tolerated a bit more TC until it got boring too, and abandoned Privateer and expansion once the plot ended) but for some reason I clocked in 127 hours since July in this game and don't really feel them.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 05, 2016, 09:34:18 am
The correct plan to follow would have been the Elite plan: Release a core game that's enjoyable. Bundle up secondary features into expansions that are released later. Evolve the game over time in response to what the players are actually doing. That way, you have a good milestone you can work towards, there are goals which can be achieved, releasable progress can be shown in 2 or 3 years, and you can stress-test the core gameplay to see if everything that was promised is actually doable within the framework of the game.

I cant agree with that. As I said, Elite is not a bad game, but if SC was like Elite, I would be very disappointed. Elite spends way too much development effort on polish and too little on implementing new features and content. Thats why it is "mile wide, inch deep".

The problem with Star Citizen is not bugs, crashes, long loading times and lack of polish. Those things are to be expected in an alpha game heavily in development, and Id certainly rather play a broken build than nothing. "Early access" doesnt mean you are entitled to a polished game at all.

The problem with Star Citizen is that many of its features are very delayed. We are nearing 4th year of development, and there is still no complete star system, only a handful of ship components and upgrades, many ship systems are still not implemented especially on bigger ships, there are only a handful of missions, there is no mining, space trucking, FPS is rudimentary etc.

This is the core problem of SC development, not the fact that it is not user friendly and characters are deformed sometimes, lol.

Alpha 3.0 due at the end of the year promises to deliver many of the aforementioned features, and if it delivers, bugs or no bugs, my hype levels will rise again. If it doesnt, ha! I may even join the ranks of SC detractors myself..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 05, 2016, 09:42:20 am
Alpha 3.0 due at the end of the year promises to deliver many of the aforementioned features, and if it delivers, bugs or no bugs, my hype levels will rise again. If it doesnt, ha! I may even join the ranks of SC detractors myself..

can we just get a solid toxx clause on this please mods?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 05, 2016, 09:51:03 am
I cant agree with that. As I said, Elite is not a bad game, but if SC was like Elite, I would be very disappointed. Elite spends way too much development effort on polish and too little on implementing new features and content. Thats why it is "mile wide, inch deep".

Warning, cheap shot incoming: And this is different from SC how, exactly?

See, you can rightfully claim that the basic trading/bounty hunting/mining gameplay in ED is shallow, but what exactly is SC going to do that will avoid this? What are they going to do to the basic formulas inherent in those gameplay types to make them deep?

Quote
The problem with Star Citizen is not bugs, crashes, long loading times and lack of polish. Those things are to be expected in an alpha game heavily in development, and Id certainly rather play a broken build than nothing.

No, the problem is unclear direction, unclear concepts of what gameplay will be, seemingly no coherent business goals other than "sell more jpgs".

Oh, and bugs, crashes and long loading times.

Quote
The problem with Star Citizen is that many of its features are very delayed. We are nearing 4th year of development, and there is still no complete star system, only a handful of ship components and upgrades, many ship systems are still not implemented especially on bigger ships, there are only a handful of missions, there is no mining, space trucking, FPS is rudimentary etc.

You yourself have consistently claimed that development "is just getting started". When the original SC development plan was released, with a succession of modules each focussed on getting one aspect of the gameplay right and testing it out in a sandboxed environment, that was a reasonable plan.

And then CIG started ignoring that plan. Arena Commander is mostly abandoned, the social module was effectively cancelled, Star Marine Has Never Been A Thing, Citizen!, and now they're doing all development within that thing they call Crusader?

Quote
This is the core problem of SC development, not the fact that it is not user friendly and characters are deformed sometimes, lol.

Models getting deformed and collision detection going bad are core problems. They are things that Should Not Happen in a supposedly mature engine.

User friendliness is also a core problem as soon as you decide to invite newcomers to the game. When it's just the backers, the lack of a tutorial is not a big deal. When you invite people to try your game out over a weekend, it very much is. When you do that, and you don't provide people with good ways to learn how to move your spaceship and make it go fast to new places, then there are going to be a lot of people who will write your game off as an overly complicated mess.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 05, 2016, 09:58:57 am
E:D does it right. It may be "inch deep", but at least it delivers. Everyone should do this. As we are now in a new age where games are "beta forever" and always improving through DLCs (paid or not), E:D does it correctly, launching each different kind of content when it's ready, and always conservative regarding what they release. Still, consistent in its development and improvements. I can see a future where even I will play it, regardless of the price. It maintains a good community interested in the game and a good will with everyone who has ever paid for it from the beggining.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 05, 2016, 10:15:18 am
I cant agree with that. As I said, Elite is not a bad game, but if SC was like Elite, I would be very disappointed.
Of course you would.  If SC was like Elite, you'd have to judge it as the game it is, not as the game you dream it'll be. 

Nevermind the fact that there's absolutely no evidence that SC will manage to have significant depth, especially considering just how many things need to be incorporated.

Quote from: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=966#post454385811
The point at which SC is fully released as a ground breaking space simulation game, offering top quality dog-fighting with realistic Newtonian physics, full planetary exploration of high quality procedurally generated planets, all previously mentioned professions and character development implemented in a fun way, a fully functioning and balanced economy where piracy, mining, trading, passenger transportation, news reporting, auditing, exploration and all other gameplay types are fully viable and fun. Functional and enjoyable ship boarding mechanics, with FPS mechanics rivalling the latest generation of dedicated FPS games. All of the PU features fully supported in an offline mode as well as an online one. A lengthy and deep single player campaign. Every other promised feature that I have no doubt forgotten about, fully implemented in a fun and enjoyable way. All of this providing lasting enjoyment of at least 6 months to everyone, from those who have $30,000 invested to those who have just $30 without any feeling of pay to win advantage being given to those who paid more while at the same time ensuring that they do not feel as if they have been ripped off, in a universe of over a million concurrent players with battles involving 200 individuals or more.

Yeah, sure, that's perfectly achievable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 05, 2016, 10:20:51 am
Every time I see these numbers: "in a universe of over a million concurrent players with battles involving 200 individuals or more." I chuckle. That's definitely not going to happen in this universe.

The problem with Star Citizen is not bugs, crashes, long loading times and lack of polish.
lol okay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 05, 2016, 11:41:34 am
When the original SC development plan was released, with a succession of modules each focussed on getting one aspect of the gameplay right and testing it out in a sandboxed environment, that was a reasonable plan.

And then CIG started ignoring that plan. Arena Commander is mostly abandoned, the social module was effectively cancelled, Star Marine Has Never Been A Thing, Citizen!, and now they're doing all development within that thing they call Crusader?

I dont agree with this. Quite the opposite, what CIG should have done is to pursue the development of Crusader map (persistent universe) from the very beginning, and then implement Star Marine, social module, dogfighting etc inside of that basic framework. Trying to develop various modules instead of core game was one reason why the game is delayed now, those were multiple developmental detours. There is a reason why no game is developed in such a modular fashion. Right now any modules should be rightly cancelled and all development efforts should go towards implementing Stanton system as a playable area in Alpha 3.0. Thats what will make or break the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on September 05, 2016, 12:15:21 pm
While this is possibly true, I think that if they had stuck to their plan, they'd still have more to show for it even if the plan started with detours.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 05, 2016, 01:19:00 pm
While this is possibly true, I think that if they had stuck to their plan, they'd still have more to show for it even if the plan started with detours.

Another aspect is that while developing interim modules instead of core game may not be the most efficient thing to do, it allowed them to release something playable to the backers quickly and thus bring moar money in. So in the end it could be that Chris in his infinite wisdom made the right choice. We shall see..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 05, 2016, 01:23:25 pm
When the original SC development plan was released, with a succession of modules each focussed on getting one aspect of the gameplay right and testing it out in a sandboxed environment, that was a reasonable plan.

And then CIG started ignoring that plan. Arena Commander is mostly abandoned, the social module was effectively cancelled, Star Marine Has Never Been A Thing, Citizen!, and now they're doing all development within that thing they call Crusader?

I dont agree with this. Quite the opposite, what CIG should have done is to pursue the development of Crusader map (persistent universe) from the very beginning, and then implement Star Marine, social module, dogfighting etc inside of that basic framework. Trying to develop various modules instead of core game was one reason why the game is delayed now, those were multiple developmental detours. There is a reason why no game is developed in such a modular fashion. Right now any modules should be rightly cancelled and all development efforts should go towards implementing Stanton system as a playable area in Alpha 3.0. Thats what will make or break the game.

Actually what they should have done was nail down essential gameplay elements and plan accordingly. The game as it stands now is missing trading, cargo mechanics, mining, perma-death and a whole bunch of others I can't even remember. What's disturbing isn't merely that these are missing from the Alpha or promised for a future release, but that these are mostly still unelaborated. Googling "Star Citizen cargo" for instance brings up this as the first result:-

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/14677-Cargo-Interaction-That

That article was released on 25th April 2015 and since then I haven't seen anything from CIG to elaborate on how that mechanic will work, how it will be implemented or when backers should expect to start using it. I could be wrong in this paricular instance, but there are so many gameplay mechanics that are essential (imho) that are nowhere near to being implemented. Is perma-death even still a thing that'll be included? How in the world is it going to work?

As an aside, I managed to secure a refund for $90 (**** me what was I thinking). I was mildly disappointed our back and forth didn't amount to more than a couple thousand words for my part.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 05, 2016, 02:02:38 pm
As an aside, I managed to secure a refund for $90 (**** me what was I thinking).
Good call
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on September 05, 2016, 04:28:01 pm
When the original SC development plan was released, with a succession of modules each focussed on getting one aspect of the gameplay right and testing it out in a sandboxed environment, that was a reasonable plan.

And then CIG started ignoring that plan. Arena Commander is mostly abandoned, the social module was effectively cancelled, Star Marine Has Never Been A Thing, Citizen!, and now they're doing all development within that thing they call Crusader?

I dont agree with this. Quite the opposite, what CIG should have done is to pursue the development of Crusader map (persistent universe) from the very beginning, and then implement Star Marine, social module, dogfighting etc inside of that basic framework. Trying to develop various modules instead of core game was one reason why the game is delayed now, those were multiple developmental detours. There is a reason why no game is developed in such a modular fashion. Right now any modules should be rightly cancelled and all development efforts should go towards implementing Stanton system as a playable area in Alpha 3.0. Thats what will make or break the game.

This is something I've always been wondering. Games don't just "drop in". Modules are best likened to plugins or expansion packs, and all software that's been developed this way first started with a core product. It makes no sense to develop a completely separate "module" because game code doesn't work that way - you can't just develop three games and "plug" them together. The fact that Roberts kept talking about this made me think he really doesn't know what he's doing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2016, 05:46:53 pm
Another aspect is that while developing interim modules instead of core game may not be the most efficient thing to do, it allowed them to release something playable to the backers quickly and thus bring moar money in.

So in other words, exactly what you are lambasting Elite for. Release something with very shallow gameplay and then slowly improve it with more features. Except in this case it's even more shallow and being improved even more slowly.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 05, 2016, 10:46:55 pm
The thing about Elite is, they're incorporating aspects of the game's future in real time. You're watching what will become the Elite story unfold as the alien stuff gets added in. People go looking for stuff, chasing it, when it appears in the patches. Even the upgrade process has been turned into something that increases the involvement of the player with the universe of the game. It's a touch of genius.

Nothing in Star Citizen has managed to involve the community so much in hoping for the next patch and seeking out the changes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on September 06, 2016, 03:13:34 pm
As if SC fans needed to be any more involved than they already are. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 06, 2016, 04:25:27 pm
As if SC fans needed to be any more involved than they already are. :)
Croberts just needs to tell em what might become possible someday, the citizens will fill in the rest with their imagination.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 06, 2016, 04:37:35 pm
I've been thinking about getting a partial refund, at least. I don't want to completely pull out of this in the hopes that it does turn out as promised, but still... five years later and this ****'s barely playable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 07, 2016, 05:24:14 am
I've thought about it too, but given how many hoops (at least historically) you need to jump through, I'm not sure I want to waste my time. Even if it is on principle.

Also on a note about bug fixing and technical debt, I used to tutor assembly language and I would always recommend people to make sure what they had was error free before moving to the next part of an assignment. As others have said, it's much easier to fix things that are part of your immediate thought process rather than try and figure out what your or someone else did months or years ago.

Working with Unity is a good example of this. I heard from some people I was working with that their networking protocols didn't work at release and they've had to play catch up ever since. If you've tried dealing with inputs in the engine, you'll know how god awful it is. Me and another programmer had to code a dictionary and repeatedly search a massive set of enums thanks to Unity's inability to get the name of the raw input outside of a partially depreciated function.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 10, 2016, 08:10:36 am
:lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on September 10, 2016, 08:21:14 am
Holy ****, they're up to $123M now?! :eek2:

That video is hilarious. :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 10, 2016, 08:30:22 am
https://youtu.be/5c41-61jHqs

The Harlem Shake version is even better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on September 10, 2016, 08:35:47 am
https://youtu.be/5c41-61jHqs

The Harlem Shake version is even better.
I prefer the first one, but each to his own. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 23, 2016, 09:00:13 am
Kotaku UK out of nowhere with the massive megaarticle about Star Citizen's development troubles (http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/23/inside-the-troubled-development-of-star-citizen)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 23, 2016, 12:01:18 pm
My personal favorite parts.

Quote
The sense that things weren’t working as they should and that it was someone else’s fault came out in a lot of my discussions with CIG staff, past and present. It was described as a culture of blame, where when a job was delayed or couldn’t be completed, developers would shift responsibility onto other people, particularly those working at other studios. The animosity led to a hostile work environment; one source even told me that they’d suffered panic attacks as a result.

Quote
Another source told me that Roberts would sometimes give leads a dressing down in public. “The leads had a Skype call once a week and every week someone would be read the riot act, publicly, for all the leads to see,” another source told me. “It was a public shaming. It's something that happened more often than it needed to, and there's no justification... there's never justification. [...] Chris' involvement absolutely created that atmosphere of fear and tension and overall agitation.”

Quote
“All of the developers who had worked on inventory systems said ‘OK, well, that's why this works in their game and why it won't work in this game’,” a source told me. “We spent four months having to prove ourselves right because that's the way it works with Chris Roberts. He will never believe you if you say you can't do something. You have to actually spend the time to make the entire thing and then show him when you push the button it doesn't work. That was a persistent issue. The team lost four months on that, a lot of manpower and hours, proving that, yes, in fact that doesn't work.”

Another source added “There are no compromises with Roberts or reasoning with him once he has made up his mind about something.”

This stuff isn't even like Management 101. It's a remedial class, Management 65 or Management 82 or something. Do not encourage blaming others. Praise in public, rebuke in private. And I don't even known how to categorize the last bit except aggravated stupidity. The reason you give people responsibility is that they are collectively more competent than you. If they all agree something doesn't work, forcing them to prove it by making it not work is madness; it's a self-fulfilling prophecy even if it shouldn't be.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 23, 2016, 12:17:27 pm
You are just not able to appreciate how much of a genius mr. Roberts is. I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 23, 2016, 02:13:13 pm
Great article.

The comments though, all the citizens coming out of the woodworks to say how all of this is a good thing, and reinforces their believe. It never ceases to amaze me.
(https://embed.gyazo.com/ac0c1f761b63dd44a3c4455fcc278646.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 23, 2016, 02:27:12 pm
You are just not able to appreciate how much of a genius mr. Roberts is.

Yeah, he just got me to read Kotaku!
(Although tbf to Kotaku UK the UK version tends to be advertised by everyone as the "non-****" version except for the people who work at Kotaku UK (and that's only because they're too nice)).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on September 23, 2016, 02:45:13 pm
Quote
“Will it be fun to play? Not sure. Will it be an amazing tech and beautiful art demo? Absolutely.”

This one really made me laugh.  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 24, 2016, 07:27:42 am
Star Citizen had a headbob problem. (http://kotaku.com/star-citizens-first-person-view-is-based-on-birds-1787021141) And they solved it in the single most stupid way imaginable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 24, 2016, 08:49:59 am
I just dont even anymore
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 24, 2016, 10:30:40 am
Obligatory :D

At first I went "Oh, this is actually quite cool" but, well, Arma also allows people to see their entire body and they have a headbob slider just like everybody else, and they have had since I first got into playing that game 7 years ago. Hell, Arma solved the whole "First and third person" thing a very long time ago.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 24, 2016, 10:45:42 am
CIG had two options in this regard. One, have a developer spend days or weeks working on this solution until it works, or two, do what everyone else does and have the camera disconnected from the avatar and don't render the character's head for the player, which is trivial to implement and is guaranteed to work without much experimentation. Both solutions produce the same results, except the first one requires a lot of Dev work and on-frame computation.

Guess why sane developers, the is, those not led by christ roberts, all choose the second option.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 24, 2016, 12:11:49 pm
But then you'd reduce the amount of spaghetti code for bugs to inhabit, and habitat destruction is a terrible thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 24, 2016, 12:38:15 pm
But unlike other lesser games, starcitizen does it right, without resorting to cheating
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 24, 2016, 02:14:54 pm
But unlike other lesser games, starcitizen does it right, without resorting to cheating

A bit like NASA filmed the moon landing directly on the Moon instead of using a film set like those suckers at Hollywood would have done.
Oh, wait, they weren't doing a make-believe work of entertainment/art now that I think about it...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 24, 2016, 02:47:44 pm
A bit like NASA filmed the moon landing directly on the Moon instead of using a film set like those suckers at Hollywood would have done.
Oh, wait, they weren't doing a make-believe work of entertainment/art now that I think about it...

The Moon Landing was faked. On the Moon. They built a teleporter to get everything there, landing was too hard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on September 24, 2016, 02:52:35 pm
The irony is that Crysis already rendered the whole body (w/o head) in 1st person perspective and as others already said games like Operations Flashpoint/Arma solved these issues ages ago.
You would expect them  to actually be glad  for well-developed, and well-known solutions to such trivial (in gameplay terms) problems and to focus instead on the really difficult and important stuff like physic, PU, implementing and balancing all the gameplay modes implied by their jpegs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 24, 2016, 04:55:52 pm
But then you'd reduce the amount of spaghetti code for bugs to inhabit, and habitat destruction is a terrible thing.

Blue Flames gets it. Y'all are terrible ecologists.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on September 24, 2016, 06:23:00 pm
Well, reading this was enlightening.

I think this proves beyond a doubt what people have been speculating for years : Chris Roberts is simply an incompetent has-been who doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

It's really, really sad to see such a goddamn waste of money and talent.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on September 27, 2016, 08:51:38 am
I think it's more George Lucas syndrome. Back when he made the Wing Commander games, he didn't have money or fame, and he had someone telling him that certain things couldn't be done or would hurt the game in some way; just as Lucas had people reigning him in for Star Wars episodes 4-6. Now Roberts, like Lucas with the Prequels, has money, a certain degree of fame, and a bunch of people proverbially blowing sunshine up his ass. So we see fancy stuff, but no real production values and no good progress.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on September 27, 2016, 09:38:25 am
Star Citizen had a headbob problem. (http://kotaku.com/star-citizens-first-person-view-is-based-on-birds-1787021141) And they solved it in the single most stupid way imaginable.

They are tying the point of view to the character model correct?  If they remodel the camera functionality after birds in order to fix the headbob wouldn't that cause the all the character animations to all plummet down the uncanny valley?  Everyone's head being stabilized like a chicken isn't going to look natural.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 27, 2016, 09:44:13 am
No, the way I assume it works is that they had the camera connected to the headbone (which is apparently a real term in animation), which caused the excessive bobbing and swaying that the game had. In order to fix it, they came up with all sorts of fancy ramping and dampening algorithms based on what birds do (and also what our brains do routinely), which wouldn't impact the animations themselves.

The point here is that there is a much easier solution to this problem (used in tons of released games throughout the ages) that couldn't be used because Management (read: Chris Roberts) decided that said solution is Wrong and Bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on September 27, 2016, 10:01:59 am
That's too bad because the alternative would have been hilarious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 28, 2016, 03:48:04 am
No, the way I assume it works is that they had the camera connected to the headbone (which is apparently a real term in animation)

To expand on this, "bones" are the interior rigging of a body and dictate where and in what directions it is allowed to pivot or rotate. Attaching the camera to the headbone in this case would probably mean it was actually stuck somewhere on the part that said the head couldn't twist or rotate above the neck joint.

Which is basically the same thing as not rendering the head for the player and sticking the camera in its rough place, only you've actually subordinated it directly to the model rather than defined a space it must roughly remain in in relation to the model. I suppose this might actually have advantages in the abstract, it would make for somewhat simpler ability to tell where a player was looking if their turning or raising/lowering their head was implemented; just animate the motion of the head to make the camera move.

On the other hand, it has already introduced massive bat**** complexity.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 29, 2016, 08:18:36 am
Kotaku UK continue their series of articles:

The feud with Derek Smart - http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/26/the-24-year-feud-that-has-dogged-star-citizen

Whales ferry their vast wallets through the black and septumless nostril - http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/28/who-are-the-star-citizen-superbackers-2

Where the actual **** is Star Marine - http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/29/what-happened-to-star-marine-star-citizens-missing-module
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 29, 2016, 10:05:21 am
The title of the last one, though. :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 29, 2016, 11:52:56 am
Illfonic got shafted
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 29, 2016, 08:01:18 pm
Illfonic got shafted

Or they got out of this without ending up with a complete disaster attached to their name. Depends on your point of view.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 29, 2016, 08:34:54 pm
Illfonic got shafted

Or they got out of this without ending up with a complete disaster attached to their name. Depends on your point of view.
They got shafted, and then they avoided getting shafted by getting out  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 29, 2016, 09:22:32 pm
Sounds about right.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Familiar on September 29, 2016, 11:38:55 pm
Great article.

The comments though, all the citizens coming out of the woodworks to say how all of this is a good thing, and reinforces their believe. It never ceases to amaze me.
(https://embed.gyazo.com/ac0c1f761b63dd44a3c4455fcc278646.gif)
This gif is so amusing, can't stop watching it  :)
Like he saying grab cash here here and there then run run run
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 30, 2016, 07:09:57 am
The last part of Kotako UK's SC series has been published (http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/30/what-to-make-of-star-citizen).

Quotes:

Quote
It is difficult, after all these months of research and having heard from so many people involved with the project, to seriously entertain the notion that Star Citizen is some kind of intentional scam. Hundreds of people all over the world are working hard on it, and have been for years. Although there have been plenty of scandalous allegations, not one of them has checked out in our research – though of course nobody outside of its management team has full visibility on Cloud Imperium’s finances. If Star Citizen goes down – and it yet might – it will likely be because its sheer scope is out of step with the reality of actually making it, or because the money runs out, or because it’s taken too long and its funders have finally withdrawn their support. If there is anything more nefarious than that going on, we have found no convincing evidence of it.

If you examine some of the true moral disasters of the last decade or so in the tech world, in which invested money has been misappropriated, Star Citizen does not look like these projects. To take the very well-researched example of Tiger Telematics, which made the ill-fated Gizmondo handheld after sourcing a huge amount of money from investors: it had an executive team made up of people with criminal convictions; there were clear hallmarks of financial excess, like £2m parties and ostentatious yachts; it had gigantic debts that came to light when the company went bankrupt; its one development studio never made a single game. Cloud Imperium Games self-evidently spends money, sure – on offices that look well-outfitted, on events like Citizencon – but Star Citizen has none of these hallmarks. There is abundant evidence of its past and ongoing development, more than enough to account for the money that has been raised.

Quote
I don’t want to end such an exhaustively reported series of articles with something woolly like “we’ll just have to see what happens”: I want to give a more specific assessment of what we’ve learned from all these months. So, here goes: based on all the evidence, I believe there is a decent chance that Star Citizen will make it to some form of release. But I don’t think it will happen within the next couple of years, and by the time it does happen, there’s a chance that other games like Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare and Star Citizen’s great rival Elite Dangerous may well have already given us great versions of the things that Star Citizen is trying to achieve.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 30, 2016, 07:13:49 am
I think those conclusions are fair and balanced.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on September 30, 2016, 07:34:46 am
Quote
So, here goes: based on all the evidence, I believe there is a decent chance that Star Citizen will make it to some form of release. But I don’t think it will happen within the next couple of years, and by the time it does happen, there’s a chance that other games like Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare and Star Citizen’s great rival Elite Dangerous may well have already given us great versions of the things that Star Citizen is trying to achieve.
Yeah, that's pretty much the vibe I've been getting on this whole Star Citizen business.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 30, 2016, 08:42:46 am
By the time Star Citizen releases proper, it'll likely be obsolete.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 01, 2016, 08:55:14 am
Meanwhile the RSI forums explode over the issue of implementing scanning mechanics with a golf-swing minigame (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Jk-mQ9_pw#t=325s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Jk-mQ9_pw#t=325s))
The most hilarious thread about it seems to have already been deleted, but in short, those backers that have been theory-crafting/daydreaming for years how their ships will have complex simulated crew stations for the different subsystems are not amused to have console-style mini games instead.

I guess this kind of incidents will repeat over the next few months leading up the the 3.0 Jesus patch, now that CIG have to implement at least some of the gameplay features that CR has been
(http://share.gifyoutube.com/KrWR38.gif)
about. They cannot match the fidelity of the dreams of hard-core backers.

I pity the poor low level devs who have to somehow shoehorn some of CRs hand-waving into CryStarEngine
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on October 01, 2016, 09:18:46 am
They cannot match the fidelity of the dreams of hard-core backers.

But remember, this is soooo much deeper than what Elite is doing. (It actually is! scanning in Elite is just keeping a target in view and holding a button while a progress bar fills)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 01, 2016, 12:41:26 pm
Quote
So, here goes: based on all the evidence, I believe there is a decent chance that Star Citizen will make it to some form of release. But I don’t think it will happen within the next couple of years, and by the time it does happen, there’s a chance that other games like Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare and Star Citizen’s great rival Elite Dangerous may well have already given us great versions of the things that Star Citizen is trying to achieve.
Yeah, that's pretty much the vibe I've been getting on this whole Star Citizen business.

Seeing it like this ... I would have to conclude that Star Citizen is an amazing achievement. Not as a game, but as kick in the industries collective rearend in order to get them into the Space Sim Business again. ;-)

I mean ... what would the chances for seeing something like COD:Infinite Warfare from ef*ing EA have been without SCs crowdfunding campaign success? Zero? Nada? Zilch? Not even when hell freezes over?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2016, 02:43:38 pm
They're still zero because EA doesn't make Call of Duty
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2016, 03:47:49 pm
no senzu beans for that burn...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2016, 05:56:21 pm
Meanwhile EA published Titanfall, maybe the best multiplayer science fiction arena shooter ever
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2016, 01:59:42 am
Neither Titanfall nor CoD directly compete with Star Citizen niche, they are not AAA MMO spacesims. The only existing competition / alternative is Elite, and that game, while quite good, still suffers from being "mile wide, inch deep", lack of walking mode, and slow pace of continued development progress. There is also Hellion, which may (or may not) turn out to be a hidden gem in the future. And thats about it.

So even if SC releases and fails to deliver on a lot of its promises, it will probably be the best (or among the best) games in its category simply by there being only a handful comparable games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 02, 2016, 02:52:49 am
Yeah, of course CoD & Titanfall they don't compete with SC directly, 'cause so far there's nothing to compete with. Everything points to Star Marine being canned for the time being, and given the apparent glacial pace of Star Citizen, it seems doubtful than anything of significance is going to come out before 2018 or somesuch.

Elite's "slow pace of continued development" seems, for an outsider's perspective, to be going much, much faster than anything Star Citizen is doing, and I'm yet to see proof that A) Star Citizen's gameplay will be any deeper than Elite's and B) will be any fun to play. I mean I've spent more than my share of time on Freelancer & its various mods, on a number of MMOs and open world sandboxes, so what exactly is it about SC's proposed final gameplay model that's going to make it significantly deeper than other games ?

I agree that, from everything I've seen, the game has scope. Scope however does not mean depth, if anything it would point to the game being "AUs wide, inch deep".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 0rph3u5 on October 02, 2016, 06:03:41 am
what would the chances for seeing something like COD:Infinite Warfare from ef*ing EA have been without SCs crowdfunding campaign success? Zero? Nada? Zilch? Not even when hell freezes over?

Still pretty slim. Crowdfunding success does not translate into "this franchise/genre/what-have-you is fiscally viable" to anyone in the industry anymore.

A good example for that you can see in cRPG genre:
- Wasteland 2 was a modest success for inXile, with critical acclaim and lot of buzz from the hardcore fans (esspecially those who have been screaming "not my Fallout" at Bethesda). Financially it was successfull enough beyond the Kickstarter that inXile is gearing up for Wasteland 3 while still developing Torment: Tides of Numenera.
- Divinity: Original Sin was breakout critical success for Larian, who have been producing rather mid-tier fare in the past (and I am a fan of the Divnity-Series). It's financial success was enough to launch development of a sequel which is already in the pre-order cycle.
- Pillars of Eternity showed that Osidian still has it and was a success on both fronts. They are also going ahead with new IP in same genre with Tyranny soon.

However does any major company touch this genre with ten foot pole? - Nope, the closest we get are Witcher 3 (which is excellent on its own right, but also an outlier considering how much CD Project was staked on the Witcher-franchise since the inception of the company) and Dragon Age (which seems to be headed in the opposite direction as far as the gameplay genre is concerend). We might see some movement considering EA chained Bioware to some nebulous project so they can get certain people back for Mass Effect: Andromeda.

There are lot of contributing factor in the mix why this is so: From the apprication of nostalgia, to the proliferation of the MMORPG, to need to get as broad a customer base as possible upon, to the weight of past entires.
A single games success makes some ears stand up in attention but nothing more. Esspecially considering how much voodo-consumer forecasting is going on (e.g. EA realizing that that Mass Effect has only 30 precent brand-recognition among the group of "Sci-Fi fans" their market research company dug up).



Meanwhile EA published Titanfall, maybe the best multiplayer science fiction arena shooter ever

I see that Battuta enjoys that in-industry pissing contest ...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2016, 09:05:23 am
Neither Titanfall nor CoD directly compete with Star Citizen niche
CoD competes directly with SQ42, being an FPS/Space Fighter hybrid.  That you don't like the idea of CoD (of all games) beating SQ42 to the punch despite starting development later doesn't change this fact.

Kinda gives the lie to the notion that "it's normal for an AAA game like SC/SQ42 to take this long to develop" though, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2016, 10:05:17 am
CoD competes directly with SQ42, being an FPS/Space Fighter hybrid.  That you don't like the idea of CoD (of all games) beating SQ42 to the punch despite starting development later doesn't change this fact.

Kinda gives the lie to the notion that "it's normal for an AAA game like SC/SQ42 to take this long to develop" though, doesn't it?

SQ42 is only a minor part of SC, tough. If SC gave up on the rest of the game and restricted themselves to a heavily scripted single player campaign and a simple arena shooter (which is what CoD is), then it would probably be out by now. But thats not what the backers paid for, is it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2016, 10:47:56 am
CoD competes directly with SQ42, being an FPS/Space Fighter hybrid.  That you don't like the idea of CoD (of all games) beating SQ42 to the punch despite starting development later doesn't change this fact.

Kinda gives the lie to the notion that "it's normal for an AAA game like SC/SQ42 to take this long to develop" though, doesn't it?

SQ42 is only a minor part of SC, tough. If SC gave up on the rest of the game and restricted themselves to a heavily scripted single player campaign and a simple arena shooter (which is what CoD is), then it would probably be out by now. But thats not what the backers paid for, is it.
The backers paid for a game, but I don't see that anywhere either.  Meanwhile, other, actual games are destroying any claims to unique gameplay SC/SQ42 has.  CoD: IW is releasing in a month, and E:D has a more complete and deeper sandbox.  SC has CR's vague promises of something bigger and a trail of incompetence stretching back years.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2016, 11:46:47 am
The thing about Elite is that the moment to moment flight gameplay is superb, really something else. It's the high-level systems that suck.

SC hasn't managed to make flying fun or polished yet: I don't have any confidence they can nail the bigger problems.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on October 02, 2016, 06:39:43 pm
All I know that for all this talk of the resurgence of spacesims we still don't have a new X-wing game, and with EA we probably never will.

I'll spare you the usual wall of text on how I'd bring the series back for modern audiences, I think I wrote it about a thousand times on this forum alone.

Why had to be Chris Roberts and not Lawrence Holland? WHY!?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on October 02, 2016, 06:43:39 pm
I'm still holding out for a spiritual successor to Allegiance. I think the time is increasingly ripe, with the popularization of MOBA-like game elements. Although I'm worried that when it does appear it'll be fixed 8v8 instead of the flexible "anything between 4v4 and 64vs64 with anytime drop in/out" the original Allegiance was.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 02, 2016, 07:03:24 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 02, 2016, 07:39:18 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

Or Wing Commander right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathspeed on October 02, 2016, 07:59:00 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

Or Wing Commander right?

Agree 100%!  I don't do well with open-world/sandbox games, and I don't care much for multiplayer.  I don't self-focus well in games (probably not in RL either), and then I lose interest before ever really doing anything fun.  I do much better with a mission structure, whether linear or branching.  Some side missions are OK, but if there are too many I will get myself bogged down in those thinking i need to level up before getting back to the main campaign, and if the side missions are too repetitious or not engaging on their own again i will lose interest. 

I played the snot out of Wing Commander on my Super NES, replaying and tanking missions just to play through all the branches.  And FS2 is literally the primary reason I bought my first PC.  The original PC-only Crimson Skies and MechWarrior 3 also took a good bit of my free time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 03, 2016, 12:41:12 am
They cannot match the fidelity of the dreams of hard-core backers.

But remember, this is soooo much deeper than what Elite is doing. (It actually is! scanning in Elite is just keeping a target in view and holding a button while a progress bar fills)

Where have I seen that before?  ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 03, 2016, 10:24:49 am
Or Wing Commander right?

I pledged to SC to get myself a new Wing Commander game.

I am never going to get that damn game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 04, 2016, 03:55:15 am
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

House of the Dying Sun?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 04, 2016, 10:06:14 am
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

House of the Dying Sun?

Was awesome. I want more :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 04, 2016, 11:00:31 am
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

House of the Dying Sun?

Was awesome. I want more :-)

1.0 is not released yet. Rumours say it has more.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Turambar on October 04, 2016, 07:00:53 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

House of the Dying Sun?

Was awesome. I want more :-)

1.0 is not released yet. Rumours say it has more.

Too bad all the rumors specifically say the art is "final".


I will say though it is tiring to have every game trying to insert itself as part of your life.  One of the reasons Grim Dawn is so refreshing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Polpolion on October 04, 2016, 07:37:00 pm
Too bad all the rumors specifically say the art is "final".

Honestly I enjoyed the art style, but somehow its simplicity didn't translate into additional resources being spent on the rest of the game. What pisses me off is how the dev keeps pushing more difficulty levels in lieu of additional content when the game is barely an hour long.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 04, 2016, 08:09:36 pm
Honestly I enjoyed the art style, but somehow its simplicity didn't translate into additional resources being spent on the rest of the game.

It absolutely did; I present to you as evidence the fact that there is a rest of the game. For god's sake man, the entire dev team is one guy working with only his own resources. Why are you even letting it piss you off that he can't handcraft ****loads of content?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 04, 2016, 08:27:50 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

Or Wing Commander right?

Agree 100%!  I don't do well with open-world/sandbox games, and I don't care much for multiplayer.  I don't self-focus well in games (probably not in RL either), and then I lose interest before ever really doing anything fun.  I do much better with a mission structure, whether linear or branching.  Some side missions are OK, but if there are too many I will get myself bogged down in those thinking i need to level up before getting back to the main campaign, and if the side missions are too repetitious or not engaging on their own again i will lose interest. 

I played the snot out of Wing Commander on my Super NES, replaying and tanking missions just to play through all the branches.  And FS2 is literally the primary reason I bought my first PC.  The original PC-only Crimson Skies and MechWarrior 3 also took a good bit of my free time.

I'd love to see another space sim PC game:
Wing Commander 6
Freespace 3
X-Wing Alliance 2 (or another X-Wing game)
A lot of people seem to dislike Starlancer but I found it passable
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathspeed on October 04, 2016, 09:21:48 pm
I really enjoyed Starlancer, but my game kept crashing to desktop on the last mission so I never finished it.  I don't remember now if that was on my PII-350 and Windows Me, or if it was with my Athlon X2 and Windows XP.  I might try installing it again under Windows 10 and see if i can finish this time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Polpolion on October 04, 2016, 09:36:26 pm
Honestly I enjoyed the art style, but somehow its simplicity didn't translate into additional resources being spent on the rest of the game.

It absolutely did; I present to you as evidence the fact that there is a rest of the game. For god's sake man, the entire dev team is one guy working with only his own resources. Why are you even letting it piss you off that he can't handcraft ****loads of content?

I can't mentally justify spending $20 on an hour long game. Playing the same missions on different difficulty levels doesn't appeal to me, and neither does the challenge mode or console ports. It's a fun game for a solo project, but until there are more missions or an editor or something I'm going to feel like I could've easily gotten something more for my money elsewhere.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2016, 09:42:16 pm
You wouldn't be wrong except that you literally can't get any mission-based space sims except this one. There's nothing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 04, 2016, 10:29:30 pm
I just want someone to say "**** the open-world trading and mining and all that pointless bull**** fluff" and produce another tightly-focused, well-plotted singleplayer experience like FS2 or TIE Fighter.  But lord knows if/when that will happen.

House of the Dying Sun?
I have been meaning to look into it, but as other people have noted the facts that the game itself is short, and from what I've seen the mission structure is fairly simplistic, have given me a bit of pause up to this point..  I'll probably take a closer look next time it's on sale.  In the same vein, I know I have Strike Suit Zero (or Infinity?  or both?) buried away in my library, which I know is also a somewhat-different sort of game but at least still in the same general ballpark.  Unfortunately, like Battuta notes, that seems to be as close as we can get, which I find both frustrating and a bit mind-boggling.  There's definitely an untapped niche, and if multiple groups of people here have managed to create amazing gratis works on their free time, surely a small dev team could manage to produce something in the same vein on a modest budget.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Polpolion on October 04, 2016, 10:30:58 pm
You wouldn't be wrong except that you literally can't get any mission-based space sims except this one. There's nothing.

That's why this bugs me so much. The game makes for a great hour, but at $20 I'd rather just not play any mission-based space sims.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on October 04, 2016, 11:46:03 pm
The lack of longevity is a bit overstated.
I've beaten HoTDS in about 7/8 hours, it's a one hour game only if you don't do all the branches and the unlocks.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Bryan See on October 08, 2016, 11:14:38 am
I never had HoTDs, but... What about Oculus VR?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 08, 2016, 12:01:34 pm
What does that have to do with anything ?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 08, 2016, 12:23:15 pm
I never had HoTDs, but... What about Oculus VR?

HoTDS supports both Oculus Rift and HTC Vive. I played it on the Vive and the immersion and sense of scale is amazing. No motion sickness either, despite fast movement, and I am quite prone to VR sickness in other games with moving camera.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 08, 2016, 01:42:23 pm
You wouldn't be wrong except that you literally can't get any mission-based space sims except this one. There's nothing.
Not quite. There is this:


But it has received poor reviews. It is however cheap if anyone is just burning to play such a game or likes what they see. This game also required Kickstarter to exist rather than a dev just making this kind of game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on October 08, 2016, 03:35:05 pm
Oh yeah, Starlight... I backed it, but haven't played it at all since beta...

Maybe I'll give it a shot
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 08, 2016, 04:35:41 pm
Oh yeah, Starlight... I backed it, but haven't played it at all since beta...

Maybe I'll give it a shot
I would be interested to hear what you think of it if you do.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 09, 2016, 06:38:52 pm
i'm watching the citizencon livestream, it's ASTONISHINGLY boring
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 09, 2016, 06:40:14 pm
Like I recommend watching it just to appreciate how boring it is, the hype machine has just vanished into a puff of introversion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 09, 2016, 07:16:49 pm
No Squadron 42 previews AT ALL. That's another hype train aflame and brakeless, then!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on October 09, 2016, 10:26:50 pm
Yeah that was "something". My summation of the whole thing was "Suppose They Gave A Games Conference And Nobody Gamed?"

I can't even do a humorous summary, there was so much nothing. Just recaps, showing off a totally-not-discord-or-slack discord/slack service, and absolutely nebulous previews of things to come (such as research and science, exploration and discovery).

The 'game play' tech demo they showed off appeared to be frustratingly linear and bizarrely not immersive in the slightest. It started and ended with dramatic cinematic camera angles that you can be sure wouldn't be in the actual game (unless for some reason CR decides its part of the immersiveness). And for all of the noise and hype made over "you can play this game however you want", the fact that you couldn't land your space chariot where you please and were forced to get out a land rover to head to your objectives with conveniently placed ambushes and immersion breaking cutscenes was... embarrassing to say the least. Its amazing they couldn't land right next to their first objective with unlimited visibility and very little present wind. Nope gotta find a landing pad in the middle of no where just 2km away and land there!

Even more embarrassing was the attempts at trying to recreate parts of Star Wars with the not-sand-people sand people and the not-a-giant-ship-crashed-in-the-desert giant ship crashed in the desert, and Dune with the "totally not Shai-Hulud" Shai-Hulud.

The only redeeming factor was how the ending cinematic glitched out by playing twice. Suddenly appearing water droplets on the camera in space and all.

5/7.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2016, 11:18:28 am
Yeah, I'm convinced that I want a full refund now. I just don't have the patience to deal with their sidestepping.

[EDIT] Wow, I've pledged $600 over 4 years. I'm a ****ing idiot.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 10, 2016, 11:43:56 am
Citizenship must be earned o7

Earned by giving us money, it's a classic form of citizenship o7
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 10, 2016, 12:17:52 pm
I can't even do a humorous summary

Yeah, i just watched their "live-demo" mission, with the intent of making some snarky comment here.
But dear god, what a shockingly boring uninspired piece of generic fetch quest with blatantly stolen Star Wars / Dune mashup.
Plus all the glitching/flickering janky mess of moving around and the old classic of water droplets on the visor at random places (including in deep space).

If I were a backer, that presentation would worry me. And looking over a the brown sea, it looks like the natives are not amused by what they saw.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2016, 12:23:40 pm
If I were a backer, that presentation would worry me. And looking over a the brown sea, it looks like the natives are not amused by what they saw.

This. **** it, I'm emailing CIG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2016, 12:49:57 pm
(http://www.dereksmart.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/get_a_refund.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 10, 2016, 01:12:28 pm
Yeah I'm real happy I thought the initial fighter shown off in the first trailer looked like a fugly 40K Valkyrie rip off and did not invest.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Polpolion on October 10, 2016, 01:58:35 pm
No SQ42 this year. (http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizens-squadron-42-campaign-wont-release-this-year/) I'm sure you're all shocked, but it seems like they forgot to develop the game. They left out minor details such as "pathfinding logic", "mission system integration", and "improved combat logic".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 10, 2016, 02:00:14 pm
No SQ42 this year. (http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizens-squadron-42-campaign-wont-release-this-year/) I'm sure you're all shocked, but it seems like they forgot to develop the game. They left out minor details such as "pathfinding logic", "mission system integration", and "improved combat logic".

But thank god they invested all that time and effort in eye stabilization.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2016, 02:13:33 pm
So I sent an email requesting a refund for just the digital stuff, which will probably improve my chances, though I'm still expecting a multi-paragraph response claiming that any refund request is invalid due to some TOS change they made without telling anybody. Pretty sure a couple of things I bought aren't even usable anymore.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 10, 2016, 03:33:20 pm
Citizenship must be earned o7

Earned by giving us money, it's a classic form of citizenship o7
CREDIT GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 10, 2016, 05:58:14 pm
Citizenship must be earned o7

Earned by giving us money, it's a classic form of citizenship o7
CREDIT GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP

Would You Like to Know More?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2016, 06:02:54 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/DFBTj0a.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 10, 2016, 06:08:58 pm
Keep us up to speed on your refund saga! (I'm sure the goons have a guide somewhere.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on October 10, 2016, 10:24:03 pm
What a disappointment to have their best day of crowdfunding ever before THAT.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2016, 10:46:22 am
(http://i.imgur.com/YhvquO7.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 0rph3u5 on October 11, 2016, 11:23:43 am
Citizenship must be earned o7

Earned by giving us money, it's a classic form of citizenship o7

Let's hope they don't consider all the other classical forms of awarding citizenship (like militia service *shivers*)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 11, 2016, 11:31:19 am
****, Spoon.  I want a refund, and I never bought into the game in the first place.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2016, 02:25:08 pm
Get a refund anyway, just to be on the safe side!  :p

(http://i.imgur.com/FpV6Lho.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/xNkvK5d.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/YBe2LHp.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on October 11, 2016, 02:54:52 pm
Omg. They are actually trying to be everything. From day -5000.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 12, 2016, 06:27:04 am
Ate they being the whole of destiny and dune?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 13, 2016, 10:58:54 pm
I got a reply back. They're telling me that my money would come out of the paychecks and that my funds were already applied. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Quote
These development activities and their results are demonstrated in regular presentations and direct access to the live service as illustrated above. Pledged funds are not held in reserve or pocketed, but devoted to the technology, resources, and talent needed to make the game. Once services are paid, it is not really possible to ask our employees to give back their pay checks. It is also not really appropriate to take such funds from other backers who pledged their money to see the game made to give refunds to other backers. Therefore, we ask that you please consider the potential harm done to the game in refunding pledges that have already been applied to development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on October 13, 2016, 11:07:53 pm
Do not let CIG try to guilt you out of getting a refund.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 13, 2016, 11:11:31 pm
Do not let CIG try to guilt you out of getting a refund.
Guilt works both ways.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 13, 2016, 11:19:49 pm
"Good. Give me my money as you promised you would be willing to do when I gave it."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 13, 2016, 11:28:15 pm
Do not let CIG try to guilt you out of getting a refund.

Oh, I'm not. I'm literally just one cog in a machine of many thousands. They make a fair amount of money off of their CitizenCon stuff, too. No, I'm just trying to figure out how I should respond.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 14, 2016, 04:57:07 am
I think NG's comment serves as a good tone template. If you're worried about the guilt-tripping double standard like Ironbeer, you can add that you also have bills to pay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 14, 2016, 06:40:04 am
The SA thread is paywalled again but this article (http://gameranx.com/updates/id/65926/article/how-to-get-a-refund-in-star-citizen/) seems to summarise a lot of strategies the goons developed to force CIG to pay up (don't bother with cargo-cult bull**** like deleting your social media accounts though).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 14, 2016, 01:38:27 pm
I think NG's comment serves as a good tone template. If you're worried about the guilt-tripping double standard like Ironbeer, you can add that you also have bills to pay.
A little clarity: it's almost a year to the day from when I washed my hands of my beta pledge. My comment simply offered a reminder that actual human beings on the other end of this will read and process your request.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 14, 2016, 03:22:30 pm
I think NG's comment serves as a good tone template. If you're worried about the guilt-tripping double standard like Ironbeer, you can add that you also have bills to pay.
A little clarity: it's almost a year to the day from when I washed my hands of my beta pledge. My comment simply offered a reminder that actual human beings on the other end of this will read and process your request.

But if they thought for two seconds they'd realize that my refund basically accounts for something like $1.50 out of everyone's paychecks if I was really asking people to give up their paychecks. They just don't want to give money back.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 14, 2016, 03:47:42 pm
Honestly, the fact they're trying to throw hard-sell "this is my job, man!" **** at you for getting a refund is probably the most damning thing that's come out in this thread.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 14, 2016, 03:55:27 pm
Exactly. It's guilt tripping. "You are about to cause suffering and possible unemployment for a lot of Good people, what kind of monster are you?"
Don't fall for that crap. It's a company that has failed to provide the promised goods. You are perfectly entitled to your refund and a ****ing apology for both the failure on their part and the guilt tripping attempt.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 14, 2016, 06:09:53 pm
What's interesting is that Chris Roberts has gone on record to state in 2014 that the project received enough funding to finish the game, despite with limited scope and ambition, with $54 million raised. A "healthy cash reserve" was kept to ensure completion of the project if funding stopped. Total funding has now reached $128 million, almost two and a half times the amount two years ago. That is one hell of a cash reserve, and if my money has been "spent", as well as others' money, that suggests that the $128 million has been blown through with colossal mismanagement and that CIG relies on new backers to refund money when requested, and ultimately given.

I've sent my retort, with a warning that should a refund denial be issued, I will contact appropriate government agencies.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 14, 2016, 06:58:02 pm
http://gameranx.com/updates/id/65926/article/how-to-get-a-refund-in-star-citizen/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 14, 2016, 07:05:28 pm
You are the third person to suggest that to me despite me having found it on my own. :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 14, 2016, 07:39:00 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/YhvquO7.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lepanto on October 14, 2016, 11:22:04 pm
So.

Past-his-prime older white dude. Says we're gonna build a game, it's gonna be big, it's gonna be the greatest. Charismatic, but giant ego. Can't take criticism; everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. His proposal's not technically or financially feasible? He can paper over that with glittering generalities and empty promises (and silly hand gestures).

His supporters thought their man would overturn the Establishment, that he'd shake up the status quo. They've bought into his dream, with an unquestioning fanaticism and a shared selective reality. They'll close ranks behind their man.

But sooner or later, reality catches up. Every sane person shakes their head in horror at the trainwreck that this man started. Even some of his initial supporters see the writing on the wall and get out while they can. And everyone involved will be much poorer once he's done with them.


So yeah. People keep falling for this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 15, 2016, 12:40:02 am
So.

Past-his-prime older white dude. Says we're gonna build a game, it's gonna be big, it's gonna be the greatest. Charismatic, but giant ego. Can't take criticism; everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. His proposal's not technically or financially feasible? He can paper over that with glittering generalities and empty promises (and silly hand gestures).

His supporters thought their man would overturn the Establishment, that he'd shake up the status quo. They've bought into his dream, with an unquestioning fanaticism and a shared selective reality. They'll close ranks behind their man.

But sooner or later, reality catches up. Every sane person shakes their head in horror at the trainwreck that this man started. Even some of his initial supporters see the writing on the wall and get out while they can. And everyone involved will be much poorer once he's done with them.


So yeah. People keep falling for this.

The political commentary nestled beside this is astoundingly accurate, to boot. Bravo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on October 15, 2016, 12:28:18 pm
So.

Past-his-prime older white dude. Says we're gonna build a game, it's gonna be big, it's gonna be the greatest. Charismatic, but giant ego. Can't take criticism; everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. His proposal's not technically or financially feasible? He can paper over that with glittering generalities and empty promises (and silly hand gestures).

His supporters thought their man would overturn the Establishment, that he'd shake up the status quo. They've bought into his dream, with an unquestioning fanaticism and a shared selective reality. They'll close ranks behind their man.

But sooner or later, reality catches up. Every sane person shakes their head in horror at the trainwreck that this man started. Even some of his initial supporters see the writing on the wall and get out while they can. And everyone involved will be much poorer once he's done with them.


So yeah. People keep falling for this.

I think it's taking it a *bit* too far to compare Chris Roberts with Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 15, 2016, 01:17:30 pm
If Trump is CR, does that mean Derek Smart is Hillary?  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 15, 2016, 01:18:50 pm
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/wingcommander/images/6/61/Kilrathi_poll_wc3.jpg)

If Chris Roberts were to grab one of the Wing Commander villains, what would he grab them by?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 15, 2016, 02:16:47 pm
If Trump is CR, does that mean Derek Smart is Hillary?  :p

Nah, he's Ted Cruz. Hillary is more akin to David Braben.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on October 16, 2016, 09:52:56 pm
But I thought people like David Braben.

And if we're mapping space game devs to political candidates, why not Sean Murray to Trump?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Black Wolf on October 17, 2016, 12:41:32 am
http://gameranx.com/updates/id/65926/article/how-to-get-a-refund-in-star-citizen/

Wow. That link has the full version of the email that Cobra got and... damn. That's some egregious ****. IANAL, but I am studying contract law at the moment. That letter is written purely to obfuscate and guilt trip people. The idea that they can't refund because they don't have your specific dollars sitting in a bank account is so ludicrousthat it can't possibly have been inserted for any purpose other than to confuse people. When you call upon a refund you're entitled to, you create a brand new liability for the merchant. It doesn't matter where your money is - they have a new debt to you, and they're obligated to pay it just as they would be any other debt.

I hope they aren't pulling this same **** here in Australia. We have very strong, very straightforward consumer protection law that's well advertised - they'll find themselves losing a lot of money and even more good will if they try this sort of crap here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 17, 2016, 01:19:22 am
http://gameranx.com/updates/id/65926/article/how-to-get-a-refund-in-star-citizen/

Wow. That link has the full version of the email that Cobra got and... damn. That's some egregious ****. IANAL, but I am studying contract law at the moment. That letter is written purely to obfuscate and guilt trip people. The idea that they can't refund because they don't have your specific dollars sitting in a bank account is so ludicrousthat it can't possibly have been inserted for any purpose other than to confuse people. When you call upon a refund you're entitled to, you create a brand new liability for the merchant. It doesn't matter where your money is - they have a new debt to you, and they're obligated to pay it just as they would be any other debt.

I hope they aren't pulling this same **** here in Australia. We have very strong, very straightforward consumer protection law that's well advertised - they'll find themselves losing a lot of money and even more good will if they try this sort of crap here.

They're pulling it withe everyone. Problem is is that anyone who buys **** from CIG now is screwed because they've been periodically rewriting their TOS, closing gaps in it that allowed people refunds.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 17, 2016, 04:07:18 am
Woo!

Quote
Following a review of your request, we have decided at our discretion to refund your account. When this process is complete your account will be permanently closed.

We will now research your activity and refund eligibility for pledges which are present on this account.

Purchase types that are non-refundable include physical goods which have been fulfilled, event tickets, and subscriptions.

If you have received pledge items from third parties as gifts in excess of your actual account spend, we can, at your option, return those to the account which gifted the pledge to you, however those pledges are not refundable to you because you did not pay for them yourself.

Some pledges may no longer be refundable through their original payment methods, and therefore before proceeding with this process we will need your PayPal details to action the refund.

Upon confirmation from you of your PayPal details, we will begin the research process and at that time your account will be made inactive permanently, including your email address and handle on our system.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on October 17, 2016, 04:30:09 am
They're pulling it withe everyone. Problem is is that anyone who buys **** from CIG now is screwed because they've been periodically rewriting their TOS, closing gaps in it that allowed people refunds.

Technically when they do that, you should just click that you don't agree and tell them you want your money back. Either that or send them a new contract which you have changed making you God Emperor of the Universe and expecting them to pay for it. :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 17, 2016, 08:47:42 am
Woo!

Quote
Following a review of your request, we have decided at our discretion to refund your account. When this process is complete your account will be permanently closed.

We will now research your activity and refund eligibility for pledges which are present on this account.

Purchase types that are non-refundable include physical goods which have been fulfilled, event tickets, and subscriptions.

If you have received pledge items from third parties as gifts in excess of your actual account spend, we can, at your option, return those to the account which gifted the pledge to you, however those pledges are not refundable to you because you did not pay for them yourself.

Some pledges may no longer be refundable through their original payment methods, and therefore before proceeding with this process we will need your PayPal details to action the refund.

Upon confirmation from you of your PayPal details, we will begin the research process and at that time your account will be made inactive permanently, including your email address and handle on our system.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 18, 2016, 03:32:40 pm
What exactly will we be getting with Squadron 42 (the secondary project CR is working on)?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 18, 2016, 03:37:11 pm
Do you not know what Google is? :wtf:

It's the singleplayer component of the Star Citizen project. Full of big Hollywood names and ****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 18, 2016, 09:57:55 pm
Sorry for asking a question. 

I was trying to figure out if people thought it was being as poorly managed as SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on October 18, 2016, 10:12:10 pm
It... is part of SC, so.... by definition yes?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 18, 2016, 10:12:27 pm
Again, Google.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpg5z68eXPAhXGSCYKHSo6ALsQFghjMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gamespot.com%2Farticles%2Fstar-citizens-single-player-game-squadron-42-delay%2F1100-6444340%2F&usg=AFQjCNFHEXQaByksCESbPB609ZldFnBfGA&sig2=4HPVqSLzguN8zFl8C-ufLg

Just by typing in Squadron 42.

You don't promise something and then when a mountain of cash gets piled on you go "Oh, well, we can do more than that" and never finish it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 18, 2016, 10:20:43 pm
I was under the impression they were sort of two separate projects.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: RangerKarl on October 19, 2016, 12:32:12 am
I was under the impression they were sort of two separate projects.  Sorry.

That's understandable, seeing as how SC fluctuates between being 1 game and 6 depending on what the weather is like.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 19, 2016, 11:35:31 pm
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71111768/ohyeahbaby.PNG)

Ohhhhh, mama.

Now I can buy a Warthog! Oh, wait, I don't give a **** about the Warthog
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 20, 2016, 12:13:56 am
Buy one for Halo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 20, 2016, 09:41:34 am
(snip)
Ohhhhh, mama.
Niiiiiice. :pimp:

I used my refund to buy E:D Horizons. I know it was the same monies because the payment came out of my PayPal.

U mad, Chris Robbers?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 22, 2016, 08:12:47 pm
I've been ganking everyone in sight in the free fly, here's some raw footage of my first run from which you may draw your own conclusions on SC's dogfighting:


(i didn't get footage of my next foray when i single-handedly fought half the server for half an hour)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 22, 2016, 08:14:29 pm
fight me maslo, let's settle this like men
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on October 22, 2016, 09:44:08 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/z3Jn6hE.png)

:blah:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 22, 2016, 10:15:57 pm
Hack amateurs.

Get married.  Murder your spouse.  Part out the body's organs for cash.  Inherit whatever wealth and assets your spouse had, including the engagement ring that you were trying to hock on Reddit.  Set all of this money and materiel on fire.  Write Chris Roberts a cashier's check.  Sign a class action waiver and mandatory arbitration agreement.  Try not to starve to death, while waiting for Star Citizen to release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on October 22, 2016, 11:06:32 pm
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on October 22, 2016, 11:15:39 pm
http://i.imgur.com/z3Jn6hE.png

:blah:

I gave up marriage for Volition RSI.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 23, 2016, 10:35:22 am
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

You could just play Crusader Kings 2 :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 23, 2016, 02:50:21 pm
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Good news, then!  The subscription fee is currently discounted to two kidneys for the first year.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 25, 2016, 09:51:41 am
I got an even longer session in last night and, well... look, here's the footage from it:


It culminates in a seven-minute fight against a light fighter that I had to break off because neither of us could do any damage through shields, followed by the same thing against another ship for another 20 minutes. The dogfighting is just dire, it's gruelling and takes forever and you never feel like you're making any progress until one of you abruptly explodes. They've had more than two years to fix their core gameplay and they've only moved it through different permutations of **** while they work on the really important stuff: simulating headbob and headbob reduction, and making concept art they can sell for $750.

There is no ****ing way they have made any progress on Squadron 42 if this is the palette the designers have to work with.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 25, 2016, 10:28:38 am
That sure is some dynamic gameplay...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 25, 2016, 11:05:57 am
very true, i occasionally had to roll and strafe the other way when my shields went down on one side
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on October 25, 2016, 12:53:44 pm
Did they actually render a part of the helmet at the bottom of the screen?  :wtf:
Way to waste even more screen space for IMMERSION (tm)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Darius on October 25, 2016, 01:05:53 pm
Did they hire some expensive VA for the Betty and felt they need to get their money's worth out of her?

A simple UI element would be enough to let the player know that their "Starboard shield is down".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on October 25, 2016, 01:08:40 pm
I bet they're planning on selling a no-betty DLC at some point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 25, 2016, 01:54:47 pm


There is no ****ing way they have made any progress on Squadron 42 if this is the palette the designers have to work with.

So if all we wanted from SQ42 was a basic space sim (like Wing Commander, FS/FS2, X-Wing, etc., heck even Starlancer) we'll probably be disappointed?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 25, 2016, 02:17:50 pm
Christ yes, I don't think you could lay out a mission with this flight model without it immediately collapsing, like souffle in a high-G turn, into a giant cluster**** furball.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 25, 2016, 04:06:38 pm
LOL at the dramatic soundtrack getting muffled/muted when you get a redout. Does that mean your spaceman is actually playing the soundtrack from his boombox in the cockpit?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 25, 2016, 05:22:17 pm
LOL at the dramatic soundtrack getting muffled/muted when you get a redout. Does that mean your spaceman is actually playing the soundtrack from his boombox in the cockpit?

Plenty of warfilms and games that do that. It emphasizes the *aargh my ears are ringing* thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: niffiwan on October 25, 2016, 08:47:00 pm
LOL at dramatic soundtrack, 3 chords strung together on a 30 sec autoloop, I'd want it muffled/muted as much as possible.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 26, 2016, 09:18:53 am
Did they actually render a part of the helmet at the bottom of the screen?  :wtf:
Way to waste even more screen space for IMMERSION (tm)

Nah see you'll be able to buy an option to take the helmet off inside a ship.

But then if your canopy cracks you have to take out some duct tape to fix it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2016, 09:41:55 am
How many different duct tape models do we have ingame, that's the relevant question though. And what color is it? I mean, don't get me wrong, but it's the far future, clearly we've gone beyond base black, brown or transparent, right? Perhaps they should do a poll regarding what possible colors are the duct tapes of the 30th century.

And either they write a 10 000 word codex on the history of duct tape development throughout the human empire history or the game is total horse****. Immersion my ass.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 26, 2016, 11:10:04 am
The next twenty million dollars of crowdfunding will be spent on developing an algorithm to properly simulate the behavior of the duct tape's adhesive, because overlaying a texture onto the canopy model would be too cheap and simplistic for Star Citizen.

(Yeah, I'm never going to get over the head bob nonsense.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2016, 11:28:52 am
Air bubbles that get stuck behind duct tapes simulator. A must have in every great game. It's [current year] for ****s sake.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 30, 2016, 04:17:58 am
I just saw a youtube video in my feed which references a $/£750 ship. I thought,  that can't be right.....

Who in their right mind would spend the cost of a high end off the shelf gaming pc or one each of a ps4 and xboxone plus extras on something like this when elite dangerous is 40 quid with the horizons pass.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on October 30, 2016, 07:30:07 am
Hadn't there been a ship they sold for 1000$ or even more? And it sold nonetheless... You gotta please the whales.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 30, 2016, 07:37:39 am
The most expensive single ship was the $2500 Javelin destroyer; the most expensive item on their shop is the $18,000 Completionist Package. The latter, despite the name, does not include the former in the package; it only unlocks the option to buy it separately.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 30, 2016, 08:00:53 am
I just saw a youtube video in my feed which references a $/£750 ship. I thought,  that can't be right.....

Who in their right mind would spend the cost of a high end off the shelf gaming pc or one each of a ps4 and xboxone plus extras on something like this when elite dangerous is 40 quid with the horizons pass.
It amazes me. If it was someone who that money was nothing to it wouldn't surprise me, but regular people spend 4 and even 5 figures on this game which isn't even complete and is not certain to be complete. This and the US election have taught me things about people that I didn't think were possible, at least not in such numbers.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 31, 2016, 04:13:47 am
Such amazing, next-generation, limit-pushing/breaking gameplay. Such awe, much wow.

Also, what exactly is RATS?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 31, 2016, 11:05:55 am
Also, what exactly is RATS?

The AI for the rodents on the space stations can pause time and select exactly what part of the cheese they want to nibble, as long as it isn't the bottom-center.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 02, 2016, 04:17:54 am
Hadn't there been a ship they sold for 1000$ or even more? And it sold nonetheless... You gotta please the whales.

From the start it has been toutet as "donating for the game to be made, the ships are only "extras/gifts" that you get when you donate" and for some reason, for some people, that flips the proverbial switch.

If they'd gone ahead and told everyone: "Hey guys, we're making a game and we have microtransactions where we sells ships for 1000 dollars before launch ... they would probably have gotten a laugh or even torches and pitchforks right away ... but somehow the line "YOU are helping US to make a game with your money that would not otherwise be made" got people aboard ... and then it got all twisted and even tho everyone knows they are now buying spaceships for 300 or even thousand dollars, i.e. the epitome of "evil microtransactions" in the gaming world, it is now suddenly "ok" and if anyone says otherwise someone quotes the token "hey ,it's not really buying, it's donating for the game, man!" line and the forum majority agrees with it.

The fact that, if anything, people gave Chris Roberts way too much money already and the game would most likely be in a better state if he had had to work with a tighter budget and (assuming best intentions in this case) would have been forced to concentrate on the core game, somehow isn't even relevant over there either. It really appears to be all about the latest (JPG) ships now for most people and the weird history of the kickstarter campaign somehow makes it all "ok", or rather, i suspect, people just stopped thinking about it the way that they usually do with the forum majority being as it is.

What you get is sort: "Microtransactions 2.0, where the customer is happier the more the pay, especially since what they pay is for some yet unrealised future "dream" of a game instead of an actual finished/playable game where they might think twice about it. I.e. I think not yet actually seeing the results of what your money gets you and instead investing in a future "dream of a game ... or "ship"" is a major part of what is going on there as well.

Bottom line: Psychology is weird. And Chris Roberts is either a blundering fool or an evil overlord grade mastermind.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on November 02, 2016, 10:51:55 am
CR accidentally stumbled into a situation where people were just dumping wheelbarrows full of money on his head. I agree that it may turn out to have been better for the *game* if that hadn't happened. Nevertheless, happen it did, and I can sort of sympathize with not wanting to kill the golden goose. "No thanks, please stop giving me tens of millions of dollars" takes a lot of willpower and certainty.

And now they're completely off the rails into totally uncharted territory and nobody knows for sure what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on November 03, 2016, 06:24:12 pm
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71111768/dafuq.PNG)

haha wut

There is a pistol through the wrist and some kind of spike thing jutting out from the palm/fingers.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Woolie Wool on November 03, 2016, 06:50:10 pm
It's funny how badly the dogfighting plays when I developed the earliest prototype for Wings' flight model by ****ing around in tables for about an hour and even that earliest iteration with two fighters with a single weapon each came out vastly superior to this.

However I've been told there's some sort of insurance mechanic, which implies the risk of losing your zillion dollar ship if you don't keep up with your premiums, so no wonder it's so hard to kill anything, what if one of the whales gets his $8000 ship ganked by a huge mob of dudes in starter ships?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on November 03, 2016, 06:59:04 pm
Well, supposedly early backers got Lifetime Insurance for free, or something like that. Replaced the ship, but not the gear. I think all preorder ships got them. Problem is, I think some change to how insurance is handled in-game pretty much made LTI pointless.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Bryan See on November 08, 2016, 11:58:04 am
What kind of change? Possibly an in-game purchase or some modification?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on November 17, 2016, 12:35:22 pm
Apparently the lead designer for No Man's Sky and left for Star Citizen. I wonder if it's possible for this move to be bad news for both games?

http://nichegamer.com/2016/11/16/no-mans-sky-designer-leaves-work-star-citizen/

*edit* wrong word
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 17, 2016, 01:27:51 pm
Over-promise and under-deliver meets over-promise and never deliver.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on November 17, 2016, 03:06:01 pm
Don't mind me, just writing some unrelated notes.

Senior QA
Lionhead Studios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionhead_Studios
Founders:    Peter Molyneux
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2016, 03:32:02 pm
Star Citizen is doing... something. 4th Anniversary Livestream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MF7xYMB0A
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 18, 2016, 03:45:24 pm
Quote
4th Anniversary

Duke Nukem Forever was in development for fourteen years....  Think Chris Roberts can milk the loyal citizens for at least that long?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2016, 03:49:03 pm
Quote
4th Anniversary

Duke Nukem Forever was in development for fourteen years....  Think Chris Roberts can milk the loyal citizens for at least that long?
Well right now they're unveiling a new ship. Yours for the paltry sum of $425. So we'll see how well that sells I guess...

I did a bit of skimming at what they've already streamed and it looked to be all about ships too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 18, 2016, 04:03:29 pm
$425?

That's a terrible deal.  For half that price, I'll photocopy my butt and send you the physical media.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2016, 05:14:04 pm
Today is just the first day of a multi day release of ships.

Why am I not surprised.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on November 18, 2016, 05:26:28 pm
Are any of them even in game?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on November 18, 2016, 05:33:02 pm
For $425 I could get the new PS4 Pro.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2016, 05:41:52 pm
For $425 I could get the new PS4 Pro.
It might actually be more. Perhaps in the US it's $425, here in the UK for me, it's $456:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Standalone-Ships/Esperia-Prowler-LTI-UEE-Warbond-Version

Well, I guess you could get a PS4 Pro and play Elite Dangerous on it for that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 18, 2016, 06:02:35 pm
elite is only on the pc and xbone
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2016, 06:13:41 pm
It's coming to PS4, but yes, not out yet.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 19, 2016, 01:52:40 am
They showed Star Marine gameplay (I dont like that fast movement speed tho), and the big news is that they are going to release internal schedule every week.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report

2.6 patch should come out on 8th December. Then its on for 3.0 Jesus patch development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on November 19, 2016, 03:29:45 pm
By the way, they have a sale of limited amounts of cash-only ships, 1300$ Idris-P (447 left out of 600), or 2700$ Javelin (all 150 sold out), with one more installment of 200 and 50 ships respectively left.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on November 19, 2016, 09:01:46 pm
I don't know if people have seen it but I found a Gamespot SC article.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizen-dev-responds-to-criticisms-announces-/1100-6445582/?utm_source=gamefaqs&utm_medium=partner&utm_content=news_module&utm_campaign=hub_platform
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 20, 2016, 03:55:30 am
I don't know if people have seen it but I found a Gamespot SC article.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizen-dev-responds-to-criticisms-announces-/1100-6445582/?utm_source=gamefaqs&utm_medium=partner&utm_content=news_module&utm_campaign=hub_platform

I totally understand the point about SC being a very complex and groundbreaking game and thus taking long to develop. I wouldnt even mind waiting a decade if they manage to deliver on most of the promises.

But what I am concerned about is why did they have so many studios, contractors and people working on the game since 2013, when basic engine technology wasnt yet ready. That doesnt seem like an efficient use of backers money. First create the engine and the technology, and then when all the production pipelines are pinned down you can massively expand into content creation phase. But it is easy to criticise in hindsight..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on November 20, 2016, 01:36:25 pm
This is cool of them, but at the same time, how is it any different than giving timelines before? Now they're just doing it more regularly? Historically timelines haven't really meant much to the game's development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 20, 2016, 02:56:13 pm
We heard you like empty promises, so we filled our currently-empty promises with more empty promises!  (We're just hoping that this isn't like putting a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 20, 2016, 04:57:23 pm
We heard you like empty promises, so we filled our currently-empty promises with more empty promises!  (We're just hoping that this isn't like putting a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding.)

It's more like a klein bottle.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on November 21, 2016, 02:38:58 am
I totally understand the point about SC being a very complex and groundbreaking game and thus taking long to develop. I wouldnt even mind waiting a decade if they manage to deliver on most of the promises.

But what I am concerned about is why did they have so many studios, contractors and people working on the game since 2013, when basic engine technology wasnt yet ready. That doesnt seem like an efficient use of backers money. First create the engine and the technology, and then when all the production pipelines are pinned down you can massively expand into content creation phase. But it is easy to criticise in hindsight..

Who are you and what have you done with the real maslo?


EDIT : For that matter why does your IP not match the one maslo used multiple times last week?  :nervous:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on November 21, 2016, 07:15:46 am
They got to him!  :shaking:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on November 21, 2016, 08:29:23 am
They made him watch Major Tom's videos like in A Clockwork Orange.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2016, 08:42:42 am
r u ok commando?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 21, 2016, 01:02:44 pm
Who are you and what have you done with the real maslo?

EDIT : For that matter why does your IP not match the one maslo used multiple times last week?  :nervous:

Dont worry, the real maslo is safely tied up down in the basement.

and he had dynamic IP



Its not like SC development is proceeding with no delays whatsoever, so I am fine with reasonable criticism. Unless it is Derek Smart tier criticism, then I am compelled to defend Chris honor. Its a ****izen thing..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2016, 01:27:31 pm
Derek smart is right tho
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 21, 2016, 11:40:52 pm
Derek smart is right tho

A long long time ago, in a Galaxy Far Away, Derek Smart posted on a blog...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 22, 2016, 06:11:35 am
Derek smart is right tho


Quoted as it will be the ONLY time I'll agree with those words in that order.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 23, 2016, 05:39:35 pm
Derek smart is right tho

Careful ... the universe might implode now.

And it will be your fault. :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on November 23, 2016, 05:58:09 pm
Derek smart is right tho

Sigh... that's 2016 for ya.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 24, 2016, 01:46:27 am
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/691/098.jpg)

Derek smart is right tho
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on November 24, 2016, 05:41:02 am
That joke would have some power if you hadn't been the butt of it for so long.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 02, 2016, 11:40:52 am
man they really are just operating like a pack of scammers (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5e1pmx/are_cig_liable_to_refund_the_20_vat_that_i_paid/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 02, 2016, 03:04:34 pm
The amount some folks have spent on this boogles my mind at times.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on December 02, 2016, 04:29:34 pm
Looks like they gave him his full money back without fuss and it was just an admin error. Of course if you're of a less charitable mindset, you might think they were hoping he wouldn't notice / pursue it.

I can't empathise with these people. Whales I can understand, it's nothing to them. But people for whom the money is significant, I just don't get it, even when I read them talking about why they do it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 02, 2016, 04:34:25 pm
A virtual space-Winnebago is more exciting than a real house, so I sold the house to buy a fleet of virtual space-Winnebagos.

What's there to not understand?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 02, 2016, 06:16:33 pm
A virtual space-Winnebago is more exciting than a real house, so I sold the house to buy a fleet of virtual space-Winnebagos.

What's there to not understand?

I suppose if it came with a Mawg...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 02, 2016, 08:06:52 pm
Looks like they gave him his full money back without fuss and it was just an admin error. Of course if you're of a less charitable mindset, you might think they were hoping he wouldn't notice / pursue it.

They have a ~plausible excuse in this case but I distinctly remember that months ago there were people talking in the SA thread about CIG withholding VAT on refunds, so while I can't provide hard evidence I strongly suspect that this is a systemic practice.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 16, 2016, 10:14:49 pm
The flood waters have broken. The holiday stream was an absolute disaster, resulting in a three second clip of Sandi packing her purse with nothing behind her but a black screen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on December 16, 2016, 10:20:53 pm
MFW I watch the holiday livestream:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZuB0PjW.png)

There are no words.

(Actually I only watched it on youtube, I had to skip like 2/3rds of it. It was just that bad.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 16, 2016, 10:25:00 pm
Are we finally witnessing the end times, commandos?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 16, 2016, 10:38:31 pm
resulting in a three second clip of Sandi packing her purse with nothing behind her but a black screen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/

Wat. I don't understand.

Funny how everyone's like "****ing really?" on the reddit though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 17, 2016, 05:22:34 am
Are we finally witnessing the end times, commandos?

lol they'll release 2.6 within the next few weeks and then the fanbase will go straight back to fawning over the mediocre, janky FPS and wanking off about how it proves every doubt about the project wrong
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 17, 2016, 07:00:11 am
MFW I watch the holiday livestream:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZuB0PjW.png)

There are no words.

(Actually I only watched it on youtube, I had to skip like 2/3rds of it. It was just that bad.)

Is that WTFosaurus hiding his face there?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 17, 2016, 07:22:08 am
Yes. Yes it is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 17, 2016, 08:57:08 am
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B8E1oi6H-R3rMmVyUUstdU1vNVU)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on December 17, 2016, 01:05:41 pm
I can't shake the feeling that one of the ship to be introduced in 2.6, http://i.imgur.com/K0YzfoF.jpg, looks like it was borrowed from a Freespace design. Is it just me?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2016, 03:34:46 pm
It's just you.  The Herald's dumb design is entirely CIG's doing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 17, 2016, 04:53:20 pm
For those that missed it, here are the stream highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on December 17, 2016, 06:32:57 pm
Dark Helmet and his crew could probably have done a better job.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on December 17, 2016, 07:06:16 pm
And his crew was just a bunch of ***holes. *buh dum, tsh*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 17, 2016, 08:35:03 pm
 :wtf:

Was that extra footage or was that what they actually streamed?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2016, 10:16:23 pm
They didn't stream Spaceballs.  That part's extra.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 17, 2016, 10:19:40 pm
They didn't stream Spaceballs.  That part's extra.

They should have aired that too.  Can you imagine the sales pitch?

"Lonestar is cool enough to own a Space-Winnebago.  Are you?"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2016, 10:26:11 pm
It's really too bad.  More space games need Space Winnebagos.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 17, 2016, 10:52:41 pm
They didn't stream Spaceballs.  That part's extra.

Sorry I should have specified, was all the non Space Balls footage what CGI actually presented?  All the green screen gaffs, the really awkward interviews etc. they actually went live with that crap?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on December 17, 2016, 11:51:11 pm
Yes. Yes, they did.

Also the video of the live stream was taken down from their youtube channel for ultra-mega-mysterious reasons.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2016, 11:54:23 pm
It's still on their twitch channel.  I'm currently watching it.  It's hilarious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2016, 01:18:17 am
Objectively speaking, technical glitches during a livestream are relatively unimportant problem. What is important is that Vanduul look great and 2.6 will be upon us soon. Unedited gameplay videos from PTU are appearing on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcSeL9Ild4&feature=youtu.be

Looks pretty good. Notice that unified first/third person animations work really well in both first and third person. Just like in ARMA, or in real life. Who'd have thunk it?? :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on December 18, 2016, 02:46:58 am
To be fair, I like how gun sounds get muffled and how frag grenade doesn't burst into dramatic flames. It doesn't look interesting just yet, though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2016, 06:47:50 am
The gun sounds of both hand guns and ship guns are aaawwwfffuulllll. It's literally pew pew pew.

Also turbolol at maslo still rushing to the defense of these clowns at cgi/rsi. After 4 years of doing streams and still not being able to get it right, its 'relatively unimportant' because its totally not an indication of how their whole development progress has been so far. 4 years of development and the whole game is still nothing but technical glitches. Maybe you should take some of the more subtle hints cgi/rsi has been throwing at you all this time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on December 18, 2016, 07:29:14 am
I don' get it. All I see there is a Call of Duty game. What the **** am I missing here?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 18, 2016, 07:39:33 am
Huh. And I thought FS1 weapons sounded bad. This is a whole new level.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on December 18, 2016, 07:44:06 am
What the **** am I missing here?

Nothing. It's a really generic FPS of an acceptable quality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2016, 03:15:55 pm
From the threads about it on the subreddit it sounds like their much-hyped flight model redesign has been an unmitigated disaster, which is pretty funny.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on December 18, 2016, 03:31:03 pm
Any links?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2016, 03:52:41 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5ixgfx/dog_fighting_breath_of_fresh_air/ (read the comments)

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5izhbm/the_new_combat_looks_and_feels_so_much_better_imo/ (ditto)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on December 19, 2016, 12:37:09 am
The flight model thing is really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation and part of the cost of having players involved early-on in the balancing and tuning processes. The bottom line, as far as I can tell, is they adjusted the flight to be more accessible & cinematic but broke some of the "high-level" play in the process. While these sorts of adjustments are needed to make a game that's fun and playable by Average Joe, the hardcore pilots who've spent years fine-tuning their skills are not going to be happy with any changes, especially "dumbing down" ones.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 19, 2016, 02:45:18 am
Sim model changes are always controversial. Whether it's IL-2 or Assetto Corsa or Elite: Dangerous. Hell, I distinctly recall that Counter Strike: Source changed the gun's recoil management to fix bugs. For instance, the glock was super accurate on burst fire mode if you were running and jumping. Additionally, one of the biggest issues with any counter strike was that the crosshair answered to it's own logic rather then responding to how the accuracy of the weapon changed, which allowed a lot of these things to stay unnoticed. The team that was then working on Counter-Strike: Source (they later also made Global Offensive) ffixzed the bugs in the model so that it was, at the very least, internally consistent: The crosshair answered to how the recoil of the weapon changed, and weapons were always more accurate when you were crouching and standing still. This move was decried by a lot of people, becuase they had gotten used to the idiosancrycies of the system and now they had to re-learn everything.

Or in short, upsets about changes to modelling can say more about the community as it says about the actual changes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 19, 2016, 04:03:33 am
Yeah, but if you read the comments the light fighters aren't fast anymore. They literally broke the balance the game had, even though that balance was already ruined by a **** damage to shield regeneration ratio.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 19, 2016, 10:33:48 am
Yeah, but if you read the comments the light fighters aren't fast anymore. They literally broke the balance the game had, even though that balance was already ruined by a **** damage to shield regeneration ratio.

Fast is relative. ;-)

And commenters are prone to exaggeration. Or rather aggravated hardcore players are prone to post exaggerated comments.

So the truth is probably somewhere inbetween. Haven't played myself so no idea, but I do know enough to take any games "post patch comments" with a grain of salt.

As far as I'm concerned the flight model was totally borked before ... and if it's now a little bit more or less borked ... I really don't care (anymore) /shrugs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 19, 2016, 11:33:35 am
I mean, is it as bad as that youtube film of the combat someone posted a while back to critique the combat gameplay in the alpha?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 22, 2016, 04:31:42 pm
Frankly ... I don't know what you're all on about.

I for once, am finally completely happy with what CIG is doing and could not be more satisfied with how everything they did turned out.

...

In case you are wondering ... my refund just appeared on my Paypal account. ;-)

On a more serious note: Due to all the ambigious stuff you read on the subject, I was a bit worried as I applied for the refund, but CIG has been pretty straightforward and completely professional. They of course sent me the expected mail to persuade me by pointing out all the exciting things that happened on the streams (i.e. my reason to finally get a refund lol) and it did take a few days for the money to come through, but it wasn't a hassle at all.

Happy customer :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 23, 2016, 06:43:45 pm
You know what would be really silly for Star Citizen to do? Switching to a new engine.

Guess what just happened (http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/23/14062698/star-citizen-amazon-game-engine).

Now, couple notes here: Amazon's Lumberyard engine is actually a CryEngine fork, so it's not like switching to unreal or something like that.
Still though, I do wonder what they think they'll gain here: From everything they've told us, they made extensive changes to the engine in order to get it to run SC content; getting those changes to run on whatever Amazon has done will be ... an interesting challenge, I imagine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 23, 2016, 07:28:54 pm
Well, at least Star Marine is out with Alpha 2.6 now, months after it was supposed to be out, right?

...right?

Goddammit CIG
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 23, 2016, 07:34:25 pm
ahahahahaha you cannot make this **** up
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 23, 2016, 07:46:44 pm
So I'm reasonably confident that this was just a marketing stunt where they cut a deal with Amazon to change the branding to say "powered by Lumberjack" with no meaningful technical changes. This makes this latest development simply a barefaced lie rather than an honest project suicide.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 23, 2016, 08:11:09 pm
You know what would be really silly for Star Citizen to do? Switching to a new engine.

Guess what just happened (http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/23/14062698/star-citizen-amazon-game-engine).

Earlier, I joked, "Always bet on Duke."  This is looking more and more like the Duke Nukem Forever development cycle, though.  If they're on the same schedule, CIG should be going radio-silent some time next year, saying nothing about the project, until they have to sell it off to another company that will rush Star Citizen to completion in about a decade or so.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 24, 2016, 12:41:28 am
I think the reason they did this is pretty clear; they couldn't make CryEngine's multiplayer framework really function with a huge MMO with seamless transitions across systems. Cryengine was crapping out sending data about trash cans from one side of the sector to the other. The servers can only handle, max, what, like 10-24 players or something?

Lumberjack is probably tied into Amazon Web Services in some way. At least, that's what I see from standing over here. So this move is probably going to involve taking all of the content they made, systems they wrote, animation calls, etc, and porting them to Lumberjack. Since the two engines use the same underlying rendering and data structures (as I understand it), this could be a very easy process. It could not be. It's a risky maneuver, at this late stage in the game, but probably a necessary one.

This is because given this project's track record, of growing from one promise to the next, I don't think they really used a lot of that starting cash efficiently. I bet a lot of it's gone now. However, I, for one, intend to download Star Marine and have a laugh at its expense. I backed when they said they were going to base the flight model on the physical location of the thrusters. Something that I think has been totally forgotten, as evidenced by the extremely detailed but vaugely unrealistic and pointless ships they've been churning out.

Keep in mind that Elon Musk's total initial investment in SpaceX was $100 million, + $20 million right before launch, which means someone else has built a real rocket to launch a real spaceship for less money than it's taking Chris Roberts to get to release candidate 1.0 of Star Citizen.

Source:
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX

In January 2005, SpaceX bought a 10% stake in Surrey Satellite Technology.[30] By March 2006, Musk had invested US$100 million of his own money into the company.[31]

On August 4, 2008, SpaceX accepted a further $20 million investment from Founders Fund.[32][36][37]

The first privately funded, liquid-fueled rocket, the Falcon 1, then launched into space the very next month in September 2008.

So yea, I think this whole thing will be a demonstration of hubris and of one man's desire to make the next Star Wars, and forgetting to make the game he told people he would.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 24, 2016, 06:11:40 am
Still though, I do wonder what they think they'll gain here: From everything they've told us, they made extensive changes to the engine in order to get it to run SC content; getting those changes to run on whatever Amazon has done will be ... an interesting challenge, I imagine.

An interesting challenge that is already done.

Quote
Making the transition to Lumberyard and AWS has been very easy and has not delayed any of our work, as broadly, the technology switch was a ‘like-for-like’ change, which is now complete.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5k06v9/letter_from_the_chairman_26_lumberjack/


Having an engine with new name makes this sound like a huge change. But what I think actually happened is that they took the netcode and some miscellaneous upgrades from Lumberyard, merged it into StarEngine, and then named the resulting hybrid Lumberyard, too (mostly for marketing reasons?). It is not as big of a deal as it seems.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on December 24, 2016, 06:13:47 am
maslo, you're a dumbass. They could not do that last without Amazon suing them. It would be trademark infringement.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 24, 2016, 07:02:56 am
maslo, you're a dumbass. They could not do that last without Amazon suing them. It would be trademark infringement.

They absolutely could, according to the Lumberyard license terms. All they had to do is apply all the changes they made to CryEngine to Lumberyard (which is a non-trivial merge, given the extent of the changes they have claimed to make).

An interesting challenge that is already done.

Quote
Making the transition to Lumberyard and AWS has been very easy and has not delayed any of our work, as broadly, the technology switch was a ‘like-for-like’ change, which is now complete.

And working on this has not held up development in the slightest.

Incidentally, I have come into possession of some prime waterfront real estate, might I interest you in it?

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 24, 2016, 07:23:39 am
maslo, you're a dumbass. They could not do that last without Amazon suing them. It would be trademark infringement.

Let me explain to you really simply, so that you too can understand:

1. Buy a Lumberyard engine license
2. Merge the netcode and some other things from it into StarEngine
3. Proceed to claim "we are using Lumberyard engine now"
4. Amazon is very happy because they have a customer for their engine and a very prominent one, so money and free publicity, and they do not even think about suing anyone
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 24, 2016, 10:00:54 am
I guess for the backers this is good news in the long term, since there is now at least a chance that the game materializes in some vaguely playable state.

For CR it must be a bit embarassing, because with this move CIG indirectly admits that their hack-job called StarEngine is not usable for the promised features of the game at all. Also they wasted god knows how many man-hours (=$$$) on said hack-job.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on December 25, 2016, 09:01:43 am
maslo, you're a dumbass. They could not do that last without Amazon suing them. It would be trademark infringement.

Let me explain to you really simply, so that you too can understand:

1. Buy a Lumberyard engine license
2. Merge the netcode and some other things from it into StarEngine
3. Proceed to claim "we are using Lumberyard engine now"
4. Amazon is very happy because they have a customer for their engine and a very prominent one, so money and free publicity, and they do not even think about suing anyone

But that isn't what you said they did. You said they TOOK it. Like they could just look at the engine and take whatever they felt like. No mention was made of buying the license in the post for which I called you a dumbass. Also, for all you know, it went the other way. They could have purchased a Lumberyard license, compared the two engines, ported any necessary changes over to Lumberyard, and then announced that they're using a new engine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 25, 2016, 12:12:44 pm
https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/faq/
"Q. What types of game genres are recommended for use with Amazon GameLift?
Amazon GameLift is designed to support session-based games with game loops that begin and end within a specified time period. Typically, these are multiplayer games in genres like first person shooters, MOBAs, fighting, racing, or sports. Amazon GameLift is not designed to support games with persistent worlds that never reset, such as MMOs or sandbox games. Amazon GameLift is also not designed to support asynchronous turn-based multiplayer designs that are often used for mobile or social games."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2016, 12:37:36 pm
Wait, are you saying they chose a new framework that they'll have to once again adapt to their needs?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 25, 2016, 12:39:12 pm
You underestimate the genius of Christ Roberts, Spoon.  He's not going to let a petty thing like "reality" and "feasibility" get in the way of making the BDSSE.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 25, 2016, 01:02:28 pm
Just in case anyone is interested in hearing it from the horse's mouth, rather than speculating or trolling:

Quote
Lumberyard and StarEngine are both forks from exactly the SAME build of CryEngine.

We stopped taking new builds from Crytek towards the end of 2015. So did Amazon. Because of this the core of the engine that we use is the same one that Amazon use and the switch was painless (I think it took us a day or so of two engineers on the engine team). What runs Star Citizen and Squadron 42 is our heavily modified version of the engine which we have dubbed StarEngine, just now our foundation is Lumberyard not CryEngine. None of our work was thrown away or modified. We switched the like for like parts of the engine from CryEngine to Lumberyard. All of our bespoke work from 64 bit precision, new rendering and planet tech, Item / Entity 2.0, Local Physics Grids, Zone System, Object Containers and so on were unaffected and remain unique to Star Citizen.

Going forward we will utilize the features of Lumberyard that make sense for Star Citizen. We made this choice as Amazon's and our focus is aligned in building massively online games that utilize the power of cloud computing to deliver a richer online experience than would be possible with an old fashioned single server architecture (which is what CryNetwork is).

Looking at Crytek's roadmap and Amazon's we determined that Amazon was investing in the areas we were most interested in. They are a massive company that is making serious investments into Lumberyard and AWS to support next generation online gaming. Crytek doesn't have the resources to compete with this level of investment and have never been focused on the network or online aspects of the engine in the way we or Amazon are. Because of this combined with the fact we weren't taking new builds of CryEngine we decided that Amazon would be the best partner going forward for the future of Star Citizen.

Finally there was no ulterior motive in the timing of the announcement. The deal wasn't fully finalized until after the release of 2.5 and we agreed with Amazon to announce the switch and partnership upon the release of 2.6, which would be the first release on Lumberyard and AWS. If you have been checking out our schedule updates you would know that we originally had hoped to release 2.6 at the beginning of December, not Friday the 23rd!

I hope this clears up some of the speculation I have seen. We are very excited to be partnered with Amazon and feel this move is a big win for Star Citizen and by extension everyone that has backed the project.

p.s. I wont be replying to this as it is Christmas and I am meant to be enjoying a bit of time off with my family (and playing some games - you may see me pop into a Star Marine or AC match or two!)

p.p.s Happy Holidays All!

Source: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/364217

Please resume your regularly scheduled 1440-minutes-hate.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2016, 01:31:32 pm
So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 25, 2016, 01:59:23 pm
Just in case anyone is interested in hearing it from the horse's mouth, rather than speculating or trolling:

-snip-

Source: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/364217

Please resume your regularly scheduled 1440-minutes-hate.
The thing with this particular horse is that he has proven to be utterly unreliable and full of bull****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 25, 2016, 03:11:26 pm
So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Why don't we just replace this thread with a link to Derek Smart's Twitter (http://archive.is/u6aNL) if that's where we're going to get our "facts" from?

Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2016, 04:24:24 pm
So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Why don't we just replace this thread with a link to Derek Smart's Twitter (http://archive.is/u6aNL) if that's where we're going to get our "facts" from?

Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?

I like how you write "facts" as if what I'm talking about is from an unofficial source. I point out that there is a massive inconsistency with what's being presented, and suddenly we're all being compared to Derek friggin' Smart and his army of minions with pitchforks and torches. Good God, man, calm down. Though, obviously, I'm sure you refused to investigate Spoon's link purely because Spoon posted it. You don't find it the least bit odd that Amazon's only service is, by their own admission, suitable for anything but persistent universes? Unless they're keeping something hidden, which would be odd, because who wouldn't want to go "Hey guys we're supporting the biggest crowdfunded game in history!" and announce a special cloud-based service specifically for Star Citizen alongside CIG's acquisition of the Lumberyard engine?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 25, 2016, 07:31:05 pm
Maybe they're just moving to Lumberjack because with Crytek's recent downfall, it's the biggest CryEngine game in town now?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 25, 2016, 08:57:04 pm
So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Why don't we just replace this thread with a link to Derek Smart's Twitter (http://archive.is/u6aNL) if that's where we're going to get our "facts" from?

Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?
This just in, Derek Smart says that 1+1 equals 2.  Therefore, 1+1 cannot equal 2.  Mathematicians baffled by how they overlooked this.

Also, Chris Roberts (who has of course never exaggerated or lied about SC's development in any way) apparently knows more about Lumberyard's capabilities than Amazon does.  That's why CIG's been working on Lumberyard for a year and only now informs its backers: Open Development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 25, 2016, 09:17:45 pm
Derek smart mentioned, thread is now automatically godwinned. Another victory for CGI :7

Or so the citizens believe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 25, 2016, 10:01:58 pm
So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Why don't we just replace this thread with a link to Derek Smart's Twitter (http://archive.is/u6aNL) if that's where we're going to get our "facts" from?

Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?

I like how you write "facts" as if what I'm talking about is from an unofficial source. I point out that there is a massive inconsistency with what's being presented, and suddenly we're all being compared to Derek friggin' Smart and his army of minions with pitchforks and torches. Good God, man, calm down. Though, obviously, I'm sure you refused to investigate Spoon's link purely because Spoon posted it. You don't find it the least bit odd that Amazon's only service is, by their own admission, suitable for anything but persistent universes? Unless they're keeping something hidden, which would be odd, because who wouldn't want to go "Hey guys we're supporting the biggest crowdfunded game in history!" and announce a special cloud-based service specifically for Star Citizen alongside CIG's acquisition of the Lumberyard engine?
I didn't refuse to investigate anything. I saw your post, which was directly after my post and quoted no other posts, and incorrectly assumed I could respond to it divorced from any other context. I did not see Spoon's post.

Further, your post references AWS, not GameLift like Spoon's post. AWS is an umbrella under which many services are offered at various prices. I am sure that some of the lower-tier offerings have disclaimers about unsupported uses. That does not mean that AWS as a whole offers no product that supports the intended usage. For example, you probably shouldn't host a website - or a persistent game - from the EBS on an EC2 instance. When that instance is no longer needed, your storage goes poof. Extrapolating "Hosting websites on AWS is not recommended!" from that would be foolish. You and Derek have both claimed that AWS is not recommended for MMO usage. The burden of proof is upon you, the maker of the claim, not upon me.

GameLift is indeed specifically marketed as a solution for session-based games. I've seen nothing from CIG specifically referencing their usage of GameLift, supported or unsupported. What have you seen that I haven't seen? Further, GameLift is hardly the only AWS-backed networking technology introduced with Lumberyard. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with potential uses of something like GridMate (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/developerguide/network-intro.html).

I'm also at a loss for how GameLift is supposed to be useless to CIG. It wouldn't be suitable for a WoW-style MMO with a persistent server that all the users from a particular region connect to. However, from the beginning CIG has been talking about dynamically spinning up and standing down shards for subsets of users as they move about the universe. That kind of usage may not have the same kind of upper bound on instance lifetime that a DOTA 2 or CS:GO match might, but it's also a far cry from the kind of usage that Amazon is recommending against in the FAQ snippet that Spoon posted.

Finally, this should be the final nail in the coffin of any "AWS can't be used for MMOs!" argument. Frontier Games uses AWS for their games, E:D among them (https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/frontier-games/). Any sin which you're accusing CIG of has already been committed by FD. Seems like it's working out pretty well for them. It's certainly working out well enough that Amazon has a video advertising the partnership on their site.

So if switching to Lumberyard to work on Amazon is such a brilliant move, why is it explicitly stated BY AMAZON that AWS is not intended for use with persistent universes?
Why don't we just replace this thread with a link to Derek Smart's Twitter (http://archive.is/u6aNL) if that's where we're going to get our "facts" from?

Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?
This just in, Derek Smart says that 1+1 equals 2.  Therefore, 1+1 cannot equal 2.  Mathematicians baffled by how they overlooked this.

Also, Chris Roberts (who has of course never exaggerated or lied about SC's development in any way) apparently knows more about Lumberyard's capabilities than Amazon does.  That's why CIG's been working on Lumberyard for a year and only now informs its backers: Open Development.
So does David Braben! You better tell Amazon, so they can take that video down!

Just in case anyone is interested in hearing it from the horse's mouth, rather than speculating or trolling:

-snip-

Source: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/364217

Please resume your regularly scheduled 1440-minutes-hate.
The thing with this particular horse is that he has proven to be utterly unreliable and full of bull****.
Roberts's boundless optimism regarding future features and upcoming release dates is well-documented. Are there any recorded instances of him lying about or maliciously misconstruing the past?

If he tells me that 3.0 will be out in January or that exploration will be an incredibly engaging career in final SC, I'll take that with a truckload of salt. If he talks about an agreement that was hammered out six months ago, what reason do I have disbelieve him?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 25, 2016, 10:35:45 pm
Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?

Why would they attempt to build Star Citizen on CryEngine in the first place instead of simply making their own engine for it? Let's just end this discussion once and for all. They've obviously moved because

Maybe they're just moving to Lumberjack because with Crytek's recent downfall, it's the biggest CryEngine game in town now?

That. The most ignored comment on the last page is the one that basically explained everything. They switched forks (which doesn't seem to have involved much actual work) because they found a better supported one. If they need to actually use anything else from Amazon it's a sign that even after 4 years they had absolutely nothing working when it came to making a persistent universe or that they are going to ditch what they had in favour of using Amazon's stuff. Both of those are really bad. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 26, 2016, 09:47:22 am
Are we finally witnessing the end times, commandos?

lol they'll release 2.6 within the next few weeks and then the fanbase will go straight back to fawning over the mediocre, janky FPS and wanking off about how it proves every doubt about the project wrong

It's funny how correct this prediction was, the RSI forums are back in happy lala-land (for now).
CIG bought themselves about 6 months worth of quiet time, until the cititenzs will get restless regarding 3.0 (aka the Jesus patch)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 26, 2016, 04:20:04 pm
Why would Amazon sign an agreement with CIG if Amazon knows that CIG cannot use their services?
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/12/24/star-citizen-has-changed-game-engines

Quote
I've had a response from CIG director of communications, David Swofford, to say that the relationship between CIG and Amazon is that of them being a regular licensee of Amazon's technology.
Amazon hasn't signed some sort of endorsement of CIG or SC.  This isn't in any way proof that Amazon believes SC is feasible.


Quote
Finally, this should be the final nail in the coffin of any "AWS can't be used for MMOs!" argument. Frontier Games uses AWS for their games, E:D among them. Any sin which you're accusing CIG of has already been committed by FD. Seems like it's working out pretty well for them. It's certainly working out well enough that Amazon has a video advertising the partnership on their site.
You're aware that Elite doesn't and has no intention of implementing battles with hundreds of people and dozens of player-controlled ships, yes?  The scale of what SC is intended to do is so insanely beyond what Elite does it's ludicrous.  SC fanboys just love to proclaim it as "proof" that SC is better than ED.


I do love how CR kept saying that CIG had rewritten something like half of CryEngine, and yet they managed to seamlessly integrate their changes into a completely different branch of the engine.  That they both came from the same 2-3 year old version of CryEngine shouldn't mean that much if CIG's changes were as extensive as they try to make people believe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 27, 2016, 01:31:32 am
You're aware that Elite doesn't and has no intention of implementing battles with hundreds of people and dozens of player-controlled ships, yes?  The scale of what SC is intended to do is so insanely beyond what Elite does it's ludicrous.  SC fanboys just love to proclaim it as "proof" that SC is better than ED.

The argument was that Amazon web services is a wrong choice for Star Citizen because it is supposedly only good for session based games instead of persistent MMOs. That Elite is using it soundly disproves that particular argument.

If you want to argue that there wont be battles with hundreds of people, then that is a different thing and I may even agree. I think the limit will be somewhere around 128 players in one dynamic instance. But I am not ruling out bigger numbers either.

I do love how CR kept saying that CIG had rewritten something like half of CryEngine, and yet they managed to seamlessly integrate their changes into a completely different branch of the engine.

Whether this can be managed depends entirely on what exact changes we are talking about.

It is pretty obvious that they merely took some things and upgrades from Lumberyard and integrated them into their engine. Not the other way around.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 27, 2016, 01:36:17 am
Well it depends on where the changes CIG made are and how much has been ported from the other fork into the Amazon one. If Amazon's changes are to fairly modular parts of the code, it would be fairly easy to have no conflicts.


That said, I'm still convinced we're being gaslighted here. Either the networking stuff the new engine brings isn't much of a change or Star Engine didn't have any useable networking code.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 27, 2016, 04:25:23 am
Even WTFosaurus is confused (https://www.twitch.tv/wtfosaurus/v/109403591?t=06h12m45s) by this mess.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 27, 2016, 07:04:07 am
Well it depends on where the changes CIG made are and how much has been ported from the other fork into the Amazon one. If Amazon's changes are to fairly modular parts of the code, it would be fairly easy to have no conflicts.


That said, I'm still convinced we're being gaslighted here. Either the networking stuff the new engine brings isn't much of a change or Star Engine didn't have any useable networking code.

Considering how the engine struggled with even small amounts of players the later is quite likely.
Worst case: Both are true. As far as wanting to make a full fledged MMO with realtime spaceship combat with it anyways.

Furthermore MMO gameplay has always followed the technology traditionally. CIG appears to try it the other way around. So there's no telling if even half of what they promise can be delivered with current technological limits. That is, whether it can be achieved in any way that could be considered "playable" and or "enjoyable", while holding on to what they promised.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 27, 2016, 08:00:36 am
If you want to argue that there wont be battles with hundreds of people, then that is a different thing and I may even agree. I think the limit will be somewhere around 128 players in one dynamic instance. But I am not ruling out bigger numbers either.
Surely you aren't implying that Croberts is making wild unobtainable promises and that the whole game as pitched will never see the light of day?! I'm super worried that the promised massive battles of hundreds of players and hundred of ships isn't going to be technically feasable... (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ohdear.png)

Whether this can be managed depends entirely on what exact changes we are talking about.

It is pretty obvious that they merely took some things and upgrades from Lumberyard and integrated them into their engine. Not the other way around.
Tell us all the obvious things
(http://i.imgur.com/T5EnVTO.png)
I mean, citizens all seem to know exactly what is going on.

Meanwhile look at this generic boring colorless amazing fps that kills CoD dead.
Can't wait to play it, looks super good after 5 years only 1 year of development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 27, 2016, 08:06:54 am
I forgot to mention
They are now selling missiles
(https://i.imgur.com/80lrnfB.png)
For 70 dollars

This is fine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 27, 2016, 08:14:29 am
I forgot to mention
They are now selling missiles
(https://i.imgur.com/80lrnfB.png)
For 70 dollars

This is fine.

On a brighter note, UEC also gets refunded when you get a refund :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 27, 2016, 08:17:07 am
Wait, is that 70 dollars per fish?

Not that it makes it any better if it isn't  :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on December 27, 2016, 08:56:26 am
I forgot to mention
They are now selling missiles
(https://i.imgur.com/80lrnfB.png)
For 70 dollars

This is fine.
As soon as I saw this post, I was immediately, strongly reminded of this:


The research is kind of being carried out for real now in a similar way at CIG. Maybe they can charge you real money to have your avatar order an in-game pizza for the price of a real pizza.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 27, 2016, 12:11:11 pm
I forgot to mention
They are now selling missiles

For 70 dollars

This is fine.

It is fine. You want to buy the game you can pay 40 dollars or so and thats it. Anything more and you are paying primarily to support the development, with any items being just an added bonus.

Now I am not the kind of backer who would pay hundreds of dollars for an unfinished game (I would if I was filthy rich), but I certainly think selling such packages is fine because $140 million pledged means I get more bang for my own buck, too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 27, 2016, 12:18:16 pm
Surely you aren't implying that Croberts is making wild unobtainable promises and that the whole game as pitched will never see the light of day?! I'm super worried that the promised massive battles of hundreds of players and hundred of ships isn't going to be technically feasable...

Surely you can post a source where Croberts said there will be hundreds of ships in one instance? Cause I didnt catch that information..

Hundreds of players in one area may be doable assuming most of them are hidden as crew inside bigger ships, which acts as a single entity.. I am not sure tho.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 27, 2016, 12:19:43 pm
Where is the game?

5 years of development gets us:

MMO: Alpha can't run with more than 24 players on a server in a single system. Game as pitched was for thousands of players in 100 systems. No gameplay loops at all other than a couple "kill stuff/press buttons for money" things.

Dogfighting "Module": Literally just wave-based gameplay. Non-final FM after all this time. Game as pitched was for physics-based ship simulation. Nowhere to be found. (This is what I backed for)

FPS "Module": Just 2 maps and a bunch of very plain weapons. Literally nothing original or unique. Game as pitched was an experience to rival CoD.

Squadron 42: Lots of expensive mocap. Seriously, who starts mocapping the entire story before the levels are even built? Nothing heard from this in a couple years now. Where is it? Game as pitched was a new Wing Commander. Nowhere to be found.

There's no point in arguing with people that are still backing at this point, it's just crazy to me that people are keeping this going. It blows my girlfriend's mind when I tell her about it: "You mean they pay hundreds of dollars for fake spaceships? You don't even get a model [to hold]!".

Pure lulz.

EDIT: Maslo, you can't "hide" players inside a ship. If they're connected to the server, they're connected to the server. Seriously can you even explain that idea?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 27, 2016, 12:30:56 pm
EDIT: Maslo, you can't "hide" players inside a ship. If they're connected to the server, they're connected to the server. Seriously can you even explain that idea?

Isnt it obvious? You can treat the ship as one big object from the point of view of those outside of it. Then you dont need to send everyone on the server data about every player in the ship every fraction of a second.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lepanto on December 27, 2016, 12:31:47 pm
Haven't really followed the development, but one thing that strikes me is how bland this game looks. It's every sci-fi cliche from the last couple decades baked together. Art style, story, technology aesthetics, everything. Brown-looking environments, ISO standard spaceships.

I realize that, as a game trying to reach a mass audience, it can't be TOO artsy. But still, does Chris Roberts have any ideas in his head beyond "whiteboy power fantasy sci-fi war story"?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 27, 2016, 12:37:56 pm
SC is the biggest instance of Stockholm Syndrome in human history.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 27, 2016, 12:48:11 pm
EDIT: Maslo, you can't "hide" players inside a ship. If they're connected to the server, they're connected to the server. Seriously can you even explain that idea?

Isnt it obvious? You can treat the ship as one big object from the point of view of those outside of it. Then you dont need to send everyone on the server data about every player in the ship every fraction of a second.

But what about when they open the doors of said spaceship?

I'm no server engineer....but if they have players walking around inside the ship, then the server still has to keep track of  those players, because it has to be able to tell when those players do something (say, man a turret), that can affect their surrounding environment.

What about the ship rolling? The server will have to update all of those player's positions, even if it doesn't broadcast it to other players. They still create load on the server.

I agree Lepanto, and it's criticism that's been said several times: everything about Star Citizen is pretty derivative, right down to the giant sandworms.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on December 27, 2016, 12:59:57 pm
but I certainly think selling such packages is fine because $140 million pledged means I get more bang for my own buck, too.

I haven't looked at it that way before. I still don't know how to feel about CIG's profiteering. But yeah, if I was excited about the game I might feel that way too. If nothing else it continues to show the World there's a deep market for spacey games.

"whiteboy power fantasy sci-fi war story"?

Uh... huh?!

I don't know where you are getting power fantasy from to begin with, but how on Earth do you get a "white boy" power fantasy? What makes a "white boy" power fantasy different from a black guy power fantasy or a latina power fantasy?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 27, 2016, 01:03:04 pm
I certainly think selling such packages is fine because $140 million pledged means I get more bang for my own buck, too.
Constantly repeating this doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 27, 2016, 01:18:22 pm
but I certainly think selling such packages is fine because $140 million pledged means I get more bang for my own buck, too.

I haven't looked at it that way before. I still don't know how to feel about CIG's profiteering. But yeah, if I was excited about the game I might feel that way too. If nothing else it continues to show the World there's a deep market for spacey games.

"whiteboy power fantasy sci-fi war story"?

Uh... huh?!

I don't know where you are getting power fantasy from to begin with, but how on Earth do you get a "white boy" power fantasy? What makes a "white boy" power fantasy different from a black guy power fantasy or a latina power fantasy?

I dunno about all that, but the story (what little we know of it) does make it seem very "white male saving the galaxy through force" and the cast is pretty monotone:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/squadron42
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 27, 2016, 01:18:55 pm
Yes, the server will have to constantly update the positions of all players at all times. It doesn't have to send it to everyone but that hardly fixes the problem. It saves some bandwidth and decreases what the end-user client has to receive but it doesn't do much to prevent server slowdown, something rather likely to happen with an engine not designed for 100+ players per instance.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 27, 2016, 05:45:11 pm
Yes, the server will have to constantly update the positions of all players at all times. It doesn't have to send it to everyone but that hardly fixes the problem.

OK. Does anyone here know what exactly is the reason why we dont have 1000 players per instance action games? Bandwidth of the client? Bandwidth of the server? Computational power of the client, or server? What is the main bottleneck? Preferably with reliable sources. It is an interesting question, not even limited to SC.

I mean, I played games like Planetside and there were some massive battles but I dont actually know if there are thousands of players fighting at once in that game.

Quick googling failed me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 27, 2016, 06:33:34 pm
Haven't really followed the development, but one thing that strikes me is how bland this game looks. It's every sci-fi cliche from the last couple decades baked together. Art style, story, technology aesthetics, everything. Brown-looking environments, ISO standard spaceships.

I realize that, as a game trying to reach a mass audience, it can't be TOO artsy. But still, does Chris Roberts have any ideas in his head beyond "whiteboy power fantasy sci-fi war story"?
Not only is it derivative, it refuses to do anything with the stuff it takes as inspiration. 

For instance, it bases the UEE on the later Roman Empire, but doesn't even consider the more subtle aspects of that, like how Rome was an unstoppable cultural force that assimilated everything and everyone around it, even after it collapsed as a state. 

The Vanduul are supposed to be all the barbarian peoples Rome was beset by in the last century of its existence (like the Vandals.  Even the name is derivative), but the setting doesn't look at how the barbarians that destroyed the Roman state were allowed into the borders peacefully, were Romanized, and actually destroyed the state from within.  No, can't have any of that.  Gotta be as boring and superficial as possible.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 27, 2016, 07:09:43 pm
I realize that, as a game trying to reach a mass audience, it can't be TOO artsy. But still, does Chris Roberts have any ideas in his head beyond "whiteboy power fantasy sci-fi war story"?
Nope, and I think anything that goes beyond that he doesn't like, otherwise I can't explain why the hell he decided that the only Kilrathi defector had to be a brainwashed double agent, also there is no word of kilrathi that are also earth citizens beyond Wing Commander II, which was an installment that had only minor input from him because he was working on Strike Commander.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 27, 2016, 08:45:53 pm
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3IXdhV5ErC0YU/giphy.gif)
glad the paywall is finally down
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 28, 2016, 03:54:42 am
OK. Does anyone here know what exactly is the reason why we dont have 1000 players per instance action games? Bandwidth of the client? Bandwidth of the server? Computational power of the client, or server? What is the main bottleneck? Preferably with reliable sources. It is an interesting question, not even limited to SC.

I mean, I played games like Planetside and there were some massive battles but I dont actually know if there are thousands of players fighting at once in that game.

Quick googling failed me.

You need to do some math.

Say you wish to have a hundred players in an instance. All they share is position, orientation, and a movement vector. That's 9 floats, or 36 bytes per player. Because you're making a game for the 60FPS crowd, you will need to send out an update 60 times a second.
This means that each client needs to receive 36 * 100 * 60 = 216000 bytes each second. Conversely, that means that a server will need to send out 21.6 million bytes per second, just to keep track of all that information. This would require that the server have a 170 MBPS upload speed, which while not impossible to achieve is still pretty costly (Especially for games that are expected to scale into tens of thousands of concurrent players).

Of course, that's a naive calculation: On one hand, you generally neither want nor need to maintain such a high resolution stream to each client; on the other, the actual amount of data to be sent out per update packet is much higher (because you need to communicate status flags and the like), and a 100 players can easily translate into thousands of entities that need to be kept in sync (think bullets etc). Then there's all the processing that needs to happen in order to maintain a coherent view of the game space on the server, as packets from players will arrive at varying degrees of latency (and I have not factored in the frame overhead for each packet).

Games like Planetside (or Elite) get around this by using a peer-to-peer network model, but that carries its own sets of pitfalls: Chief among them that the quality of the worst connection in any given p2p group determines the quality of the connection for all players, and the cheating that is enabled by treating the game clients as reliable sources of data.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 28, 2016, 04:05:03 am
Usually MMOs get those massive instances done by using assignable proxy servers. Depending on how many players you have in an instance you can dynamically assign servers for that instance. For 95% of all raids a single server will suffice, only the 200-300 player stuff is where you need to get creative. The servers try their best to communicate with eachother and act as 1 "realm".

This usually works for MMOs since their gameplay is more stat than twitch based and the large instances are PvE raids so lag compensation works pretty well when your client can predict what the AI monster is going to do.
Planetside 2 had huge battles, yes, but they were also known to be very laggy when a lot of players were in the same area at once.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 28, 2016, 04:17:49 am
The Vanduul are supposed to be all the barbarian peoples Rome was beset by in the last century of its existence (like the Vandals.  Even the name is derivative), but the setting doesn't look at how the barbarians that destroyed the Roman state were allowed into the borders peacefully, were Romanized, and actually destroyed the state from within.  No, can't have any of that.  Gotta be as boring and superficial as possible.

Things is, although the barbarians were romanized (and I dislike those terms as they leave out a lot of nuance), the romans were also barbarized: The military arm of the western roman empire was basically entirely germanized, and the barbarian kingdoms that sprung up after the WRE were roman in their organization. Subtle stuff like that makes the fall of the WRE one my favorite historical eras and it's sad that it's so underappreciated :(
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 28, 2016, 08:23:09 am
Eve Online has to slow time to as low as 10% to get the game to function properly and their server stacks are amazing. That one system in the game got up to 5700 players.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/introducing-time-dilation-tidi/

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/

Now granted this is mostly because everyone is on one server but it can show you how quickly popular games with lots of people in one places can get super crazy. It's why most games put hard limits on instances.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 28, 2016, 11:55:21 am
Eve Online has to slow time to as low as 10% to get the game to function properly and their server stacks are amazing. That one system in the game got up to 5700 players.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/introducing-time-dilation-tidi/

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/

Now granted this is mostly because everyone is on one server but it can show you how quickly popular games with lots of people in one places can get super crazy. It's why most games put hard limits on instances.

There is also quite a difference between a more or less "point and click" game like Eve and a full fledged real time space sim with manual flying and aiming.

What works in Eve due to point and click (slowing down time and the more mundane "simply having to deal with lag) would utterly destroy any kind of gameplay in a game with manual aiming and shooting.

Hilariously ... Chris Roberts is also advocating a non trivial death penalty ... which probably means, that lots of keyboards will get eaten when the game ever seens the light of the day.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 28, 2016, 12:08:45 pm
Hilariously ... Chris Roberts is also advocating a non trivial death penalty ... which probably means, that lots of keyboards will get eaten when the game ever seens the light of the day.

Wasn't the original idea supposed to be that if you died, you got a prosthetic or something, but if you died too many times the character would simply die and the character you'd have to create would be a sort of "next of kin" that got everything the old character had?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 28, 2016, 12:30:22 pm
At this rate I'm sure they will sell a form of Life Insurance policy for real world money at some point.

Citizenship means Save Games 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 28, 2016, 01:47:52 pm
The Vanduul are supposed to be all the barbarian peoples Rome was beset by in the last century of its existence (like the Vandals.  Even the name is derivative), but the setting doesn't look at how the barbarians that destroyed the Roman state were allowed into the borders peacefully, were Romanized, and actually destroyed the state from within.  No, can't have any of that.  Gotta be as boring and superficial as possible.

Things is, although the barbarians were romanized (and I dislike those terms as they leave out a lot of nuance), the romans were also barbarized: The military arm of the western roman empire was basically entirely germanized, and the barbarian kingdoms that sprung up after the WRE were roman in their organization. Subtle stuff like that makes the fall of the WRE one my favorite historical eras and it's sad that it's so underappreciated :(
I'm simplifying for the sake of brevity, but yeah.  There's so much interesting stuff you could do with the end of the WRE and no one ever does anything with it.

SC's actually worse than most because they're intentionally making the barbarian expy one dimensional scary-looking, knife-obsessed aliens who can't be negotiated with.  There's no depth at all to any of SC's fiction.  It's just a generic SF setting with mildly roman overtones.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 28, 2016, 03:41:19 pm
Hilariously ... Chris Roberts is also advocating a non trivial death penalty ... which probably means, that lots of keyboards will get eaten when the game ever seens the light of the day.

Wasn't the original idea supposed to be that if you died, you got a prosthetic or something, but if you died too many times the character would simply die and the character you'd have to create would be a sort of "next of kin" that got everything the old character had?

Basically yes ... and then there is the ongoing debate on how this will effect all the "reputation" that you were grinding for before.

But, like most Star Citizen gameplay systems, right now there is only a lot of talk and little facts so who knows.

CR however did state that he specifically liked Dark Souls for how it made death mean something and he'd like that to carry over to Star Citizen.
So you probably will lose "something" and/or maybe even have to incur a "death tax" when your "next of kin" "inherits".

Still again, that's all speculation around the fact that CR wants to make death mean something. /shrugs

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 28, 2016, 04:51:57 pm
In a game where you can easily die by other players ****ing you over, death needs to "mean" something. Brilliant.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 28, 2016, 04:52:28 pm
But... death doesn't actually mean anything in Dark Souls.  That's the whole point of the game.  There are no costs to death in the game itself (save humanity, but you can recover it and it's easy to find).  The only consequence to death is its effect on the player's patience.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on December 28, 2016, 06:59:18 pm
After having this pushed to the forefront of my mind again and looking at the horror, I'm finally going to ask for a refund. What I gave them money to do in 2013 (Squadron 42) seems to have been put on indefinite hold despite it  being something less technically difficult to make and being made by a different team. I was young and stupid 3 years ago. Time to fix my mistake.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 28, 2016, 07:31:40 pm
After having this pushed to the forefront of my mind again and looking at the horror, I'm finally going to ask for a refund. What I gave them money to do in 2013 (Squadron 42) seems to have been put on indefinite hold despite it  being something less technically difficult to make and being made by a different team. I was young and stupid 3 years ago. Time to fix my mistake.
Good decision imho
(http://dereksmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/croberts-get-a-refund.gif)
How much are you in for, commando?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 28, 2016, 07:46:12 pm
But... death doesn't actually mean anything in Dark Souls.  That's the whole point of the game.  There are no costs to death in the game itself (save humanity, but you can recover it and it's easy to find).  The only consequence to death is its effect on the player's patience.

Same here. Losing credits / reputation can all be easily grinded for "again" after all. The thought is that it "hurts" because you "lost" something.

Dark Souls is still on my "to play list" so I'm not sure how the mechanic really works, but I remember CR stating specifically that "losing things/souls/whatever" in Dark Souls was a good thing because it made the player feel that death meant something.

Personally mechanics that punish the player are kind of a red flag for me back from the Everquest days. Being conditioned to be risk averse and instead "work hard while staying as save as possible" in gaming is not really the best use of my free time imho. I was gonna make an exception and give Star Citizen at least a chance because of all the pent up Wing Commander / Freespace / Space Sim nostalgy ... but that was a few years ago before the project became this "neverending story".

After having this pushed to the forefront of my mind again and looking at the horror, I'm finally going to ask for a refund. What I gave them money to do in 2013 (Squadron 42) seems to have been put on indefinite hold despite it  being something less technically difficult to make and being made by a different team. I was young and stupid 3 years ago. Time to fix my mistake.
Good decision imho

It took me a while to see the light, but in the end ... yes, that refund felt like a relief.

Having spent too much money on a project you lost hope in is NOT a good feeling lol. ;-)


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on December 28, 2016, 08:49:53 pm
But... death doesn't actually mean anything in Dark Souls.  That's the whole point of the game.  There are no costs to death in the game itself (save humanity, but you can recover it and it's easy to find).  The only consequence to death is its effect on the player's patience.

Same here. Losing credits / reputation can all be easily grinded for "again" after all. The thought is that it "hurts" because you "lost" something.

Dark Souls is still on my "to play list" so I'm not sure how the mechanic really works, but I remember CR stating specifically that "losing things/souls/whatever" in Dark Souls was a good thing because it made the player feel that death meant something.

Personally mechanics that punish the player are kind of a red flag for me back from the Everquest days. Being conditioned to be risk averse and instead "work hard while staying as save as possible" in gaming is not really the best use of my free time imho. I was gonna make an exception and give Star Citizen at least a chance because of all the pent up Wing Commander / Freespace / Space Sim nostalgy ... but that was a few years ago before the project became this "neverending story".

Most things in Dark Souls seem a lot more punishing than they actually are. The whole upgrade/level up currency is lost upon a second death seems like a huge deal at first but it's more there to build tension and make you think about how you're playing. I vaguely remember some meaningful death thing in SC but it never felt well developed outside of the idea it would be in the game. That massive play on nostalgia was exactly why I gave them money. It was mainly for SQ42 and the SC stuff was going to be a bonus. Now it's officially flipped on its head and we may never see SQ42 even though they're still advertising it.

After having this pushed to the forefront of my mind again and looking at the horror, I'm finally going to ask for a refund. What I gave them money to do in 2013 (Squadron 42) seems to have been put on indefinite hold despite it  being something less technically difficult to make and being made by a different team. I was young and stupid 3 years ago. Time to fix my mistake.
Good decision imho


It took me a while to see the light, but in the end ... yes, that refund felt like a relief.

Having spent too much money on a project you lost hope in is NOT a good feeling lol. ;-)




I've thought about a refund for about a year now but what I've seen in the last few months has been horrifying. I don't care about the engine stuff that much but the fact that they're roughly where they were when I backed 3 years ago was the last straw. Yes, at this point anything I've spent on SC is too much. I remember even stopping considering giving them money as the stretch goals kept coming and in retrospect after $90 million I probably should have asked for a refund right then and there. Hindsight's 20/20...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 28, 2016, 09:50:59 pm
But... death doesn't actually mean anything in Dark Souls.  That's the whole point of the game.  There are no costs to death in the game itself (save humanity, but you can recover it and it's easy to find).  The only consequence to death is its effect on the player's patience.

Same here. Losing credits / reputation can all be easily grinded for "again" after all. The thought is that it "hurts" because you "lost" something.

Dark Souls is still on my "to play list" so I'm not sure how the mechanic really works, but I remember CR stating specifically that "losing things/souls/whatever" in Dark Souls was a good thing because it made the player feel that death meant something.

Personally mechanics that punish the player are kind of a red flag for me back from the Everquest days. Being conditioned to be risk averse and instead "work hard while staying as save as possible" in gaming is not really the best use of my free time imho. I was gonna make an exception and give Star Citizen at least a chance because of all the pent up Wing Commander / Freespace / Space Sim nostalgy ... but that was a few years ago before the project became this "neverending story".
If you go back to where you died in Dark Souls, you can reclaim your souls (which are the game's currency/level up points).  All of them.  Even if you die again before you get them back, every single enemy gives you souls when they die, and since they respawn, it really doesn't matter.  There are no other consequences whatsoever to death.  None.  You lose absolutely nothing you can't get back in a few minutes.

All that happens if you die is you respawn at the last bonfire you rested at and all the enemies respawn.  ****, it's more forgiving than reverting to checkpoint is in other games.  You lose nothing but time, which plays into the game's story.  Death is utterly meaningless.  You can't lose unless you give up.

It's save scumming turned into a central aspect of gameplay.

That's in complete opposition to how SC has presented itself.  It would mean that death in SC would return you and all your equipment and ship right back to your last save point as though nothing happened.  If death is supposed to mean something, then Dark Souls is one of the worst possible examples to use.  If CR is using it as an example, his community has either fundamentally misunderstood his intentions, or he hasn't played the game and knows nothing about it except that it's known to be hard.

I encourage you to play it.  It's an excellent game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 30, 2016, 12:23:42 pm
But... death doesn't actually mean anything in Dark Souls.  That's the whole point of the game.  There are no costs to death in the game itself (save humanity, but you can recover it and it's easy to find).  The only consequence to death is its effect on the player's patience.

Same here. Losing credits / reputation can all be easily grinded for "again" after all. The thought is that it "hurts" because you "lost" something.

Dark Souls is still on my "to play list" so I'm not sure how the mechanic really works, but I remember CR stating specifically that "losing things/souls/whatever" in Dark Souls was a good thing because it made the player feel that death meant something.

Personally mechanics that punish the player are kind of a red flag for me back from the Everquest days. Being conditioned to be risk averse and instead "work hard while staying as save as possible" in gaming is not really the best use of my free time imho. I was gonna make an exception and give Star Citizen at least a chance because of all the pent up Wing Commander / Freespace / Space Sim nostalgy ... but that was a few years ago before the project became this "neverending story".
If you go back to where you died in Dark Souls, you can reclaim your souls (which are the game's currency/level up points).  All of them.  Even if you die again before you get them back, every single enemy gives you souls when they die, and since they respawn, it really doesn't matter.  There are no other consequences whatsoever to death.  None.  You lose absolutely nothing you can't get back in a few minutes.

All that happens if you die is you respawn at the last bonfire you rested at and all the enemies respawn.  ****, it's more forgiving than reverting to checkpoint is in other games.  You lose nothing but time, which plays into the game's story.  Death is utterly meaningless.  You can't lose unless you give up.

It's save scumming turned into a central aspect of gameplay.

That's in complete opposition to how SC has presented itself.  It would mean that death in SC would return you and all your equipment and ship right back to your last save point as though nothing happened.  If death is supposed to mean something, then Dark Souls is one of the worst possible examples to use.  If CR is using it as an example, his community has either fundamentally misunderstood his intentions, or he hasn't played the game and knows nothing about it except that it's known to be hard.

I encourage you to play it.  It's an excellent game.

I checked again and what was referenced was actually Demon Souls and not Dark Souls, my bad - although I haven't played either game and wouldn't know what the difference would be, personally. ;-)
Also should be said that he thought Demon Souls was on the "punishing" side of things, so SC will probably not THAT punishing.
But the gist I got is that "punishing" it will be. /shrugs.

Also, in other news, Star Citizen just won the Vaporware award: https://www.wired.com/2016/12/vaporware-games/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2016, 12:31:38 pm
Death in Demon Souls works the same way.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 30, 2016, 12:42:39 pm
The bloody point is that in an age of trolls, griefers and assholes, punishing players for death in a ****ing MMO is a terrible idea. Even if it's not something huge, it just gives them more reason to make the punishments build up for other players.

If Croberts thinks this **** won't happen in his half-assed dream of his he's so very wrong.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on December 30, 2016, 03:56:44 pm
Speaking of punishing players...

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHtIjbBVuTE&feature=youtu.be

Embed:

(How do I embed Youtube videos? I keep getting "an error occurred" when I hit play.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 30, 2016, 04:06:46 pm
Copy just the video code. In your case OHtIjbBVuTE

Like this:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 30, 2016, 04:09:08 pm
The bloody point is that in an age of trolls, griefers and assholes, punishing players for death in a ****ing MMO is a terrible idea. Even if it's not something huge, it just gives them more reason to make the punishments build up for other players.

Actually economic punishment is a brilliant idea. If half your playerbase is fighting PvP and losing billions of in-game cash in ships and character upgrades it really helps control the standard MMO hyperinflation.

That's one of the ways EvE deals with inflation.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on December 30, 2016, 04:50:21 pm
Don't forget about the new players, though. I was literally never able to get off the ground in PvP in EVE. My destroyers got wrecked trying to travel through zero sec every time I tried. I literally could not afford to replace them, even with insurance. I eventually just gave up because after every step forward I was sent five back. This will be no different for anyone coming later into the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 30, 2016, 05:07:33 pm
Copy just the video code. In your case OHtIjbBVuTE

Like this:

I'm a little confused, are the map models so bad that the bullets pass through everything, or did they modify the client enough to ignore obstacles and the server is happy as a clam to register all the hits?

Also H&K must be pretty stoked that in the far far future the G36C is still the pinnacle of firearms technology.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 30, 2016, 05:12:47 pm
CIG's ability to **** up functionality that the engine should be really good at never ceases to amaze.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 30, 2016, 08:14:37 pm
groundbreaking lumberyard netcode in action, i suppose
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 30, 2016, 10:24:47 pm
Maybe CIG are just fans of cs_assault?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 31, 2016, 03:00:17 am
Not even cs_assault is this bad. Look at that ****, he's banging through 3 different walls and doing reasonable damage.
You can't do that even in 1.6 with its wallbangtastic penetration modelling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 31, 2016, 03:02:29 am
It's called wall hax.  Maybe it hacks the walls? And God that song is annoying.

I appreciate I'm a bit late to the earlier torpedo article, but 70 dollar quids? ??!!   Please tell me there's a free equivalent, not that I ever want any part of SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 31, 2016, 03:04:17 am
If a hack can completely break your damage/hit registration model that's a very bad sign.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 31, 2016, 06:37:59 am
It's called wall hax.  Maybe it hacks the walls? And God that song is annoying.

Wallhacks usually just allow you to see through walls; this is quite easy because, for technical reasons, the server has to tell each player's client where all the other players are. For a wallhack to also allow you to shoot through walls the server has to uncritically believe the client when it says "yeah I shot that guy, no walls in the way at all, honest". This is a really stupid way of building the netcode, and it can kill the game (for a recent example see The Division).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on December 31, 2016, 08:02:11 am
Walls are merely an illusion in the Matrix anyways.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 05, 2017, 07:15:35 pm
It's pretty interesting how the Star Citizen forums are much, much more accommodating of open scepticism than the subreddit. Maybe it's the lack of a downvote button.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on January 05, 2017, 09:30:37 pm
It's pretty interesting how the Star Citizen forums are much, much more accommodating of open scepticism than the subreddit. Maybe it's the lack of a downvote button.
I've found quite skeptical threads on the subreddit, especially after Citizencon and the Holiday Livestream of this year.

Personally I avoid both. Very high signal to noise ratio, too many "Wouldn't it be cool if I could act out this movie/TV/novel scene?" posts.

Speaking of distressed projects, my No Man's Sky Explorer's Edition pre-order is finally arriving tomorrow.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on January 09, 2017, 02:00:37 pm
As soon as I saw this post, I was immediately, strongly reminded of this:


Which reminded me, in turn, of this:

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 09, 2017, 06:11:26 pm
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 09, 2017, 06:17:42 pm
Yup.  Nobody before Chris Roberts has ever sent a video game to development hell by expanding the scope way too far.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on January 09, 2017, 06:18:11 pm
Insert a picture with that meme-worthy book here. "Everyone That Disagrees With Me is Derek Smart: The Emotional Child's Guide to Star Citizen Arguments."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 09, 2017, 06:24:32 pm
wow haters remind me how long line of defence has been in development
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on January 09, 2017, 07:54:55 pm
Well Battlecruiser 3000 was released in 1996 and Derek was born in 1852, so really he's had 567 years to make it and its still in early access?

Chessmate, Smart-fans.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 09, 2017, 08:31:41 pm
Paaaarp
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 09, 2017, 09:19:49 pm
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.

Sarcasm? I can't tell.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2017, 10:36:07 pm
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.

I am truly sorry for your lots
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 09, 2017, 10:52:40 pm
I was just playing a round of Titanfall 2 and I was just thinking how phenomenal it is that Chris Roberts (PBUH) has seen fit to not include anything in Star Marine like incredibly responsive wall-running movement, giant robots that each have a varied and vital role, cool powers that change how you move and fight like the grapple hook or phase cloak, and interesting character designs that illustrate the blurred line between man and machine in the fictional universe's narrative landscape. This allows Star Marine to get to, and excel at, the core FPS experience: awkwardly circle-strafing your opponents in rectangular rooms while holding down the left mouse button.

Thank you for reading.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 09, 2017, 11:04:32 pm
Wow. With the amount of sarcasm dripping from every word there, I think we need to break out the hip waders...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2017, 11:27:52 pm
I've never 180d so fast from owning to getting owned
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on January 09, 2017, 11:32:41 pm
Think we should just call Roberts' Law here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 10, 2017, 12:10:41 am
Think we should just call Roberts' Law here.

I will gladly take 140mil in crowdfunding, thank you.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on January 10, 2017, 01:37:39 am
PBUH?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 10, 2017, 02:02:24 am
PBUH?

Peace Be Upon Him.

Also, I'm all for "breaking boundaries" with games, especially space games, but how do people not realize that changing the original plan based on how much money you have is a terrible idea? How is it such a bad thing to want to have something to build on first instead of building on it all at once? Just because Elite: Dangerous did it doesn't mean it's a bad idea to go that route.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 10, 2017, 08:57:36 am
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.
Well, a community that grew up on a game that has a corrected version of the Wing Commander gameplay has a bad opinion of a game that's essentially an even worse version of Wing Commander gameplay-wise, you shouldn't be surprised.

EDIT

*sarcasm detector failure*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 10, 2017, 09:44:31 am
I've never 180d so fast from owning to getting owned

i blame milky's deceitful choice of username
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 10, 2017, 10:31:28 am

i'm the HUD that blocks part of the MFD
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on January 10, 2017, 01:52:41 pm
I will take my Failed Sarcasm Detection medal without rancor. Nicely done, Azrael.  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 10, 2017, 02:46:16 pm
Started the refund process. Fingers crossed. Jesus ****ing christ the state of this game is horrifying, especially thinking about how it's gone nowhere for 3 years at least.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 10, 2017, 03:16:54 pm
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.
I was just playing a round of Titanfall 2 and I was just thinking how phenomenal it is that Chris Roberts (PBUH) has seen fit to not include anything in Star Marine like incredibly responsive wall-running movement, giant robots that each have a varied and vital role, cool powers that change how you move and fight like the grapple hook or phase cloak, and interesting character designs that illustrate the blurred line between man and machine in the fictional universe's narrative landscape. This allows Star Marine to get to, and excel at, the core FPS experience: awkwardly circle-strafing your opponents in rectangular rooms while holding down the left mouse button.

Thank you for reading.
Source your quotes
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 10, 2017, 04:15:16 pm
Started the refund process. Fingers crossed. Jesus ****ing christ the state of this game is horrifying, especially thinking about how it's gone nowhere for 3 years at least.

Good luck :-)

My refund worked pretty straightforward, as said before.

Took a while for the money to arrive tho, but it came eventually.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 10, 2017, 04:40:00 pm
Started the refund process. Fingers crossed. Jesus ****ing christ the state of this game is horrifying, especially thinking about how it's gone nowhere for 3 years at least.

Good luck :-)

My refund worked pretty straightforward, as said before.

Took a while for the money to arrive tho, but it came eventually.

The email I sent them basically said that the game is no longer what I backed 4 years ago and I can no longer support the direction it's taken. I hope it's just a time thing and they aren't going to force me to quote legal text at them.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 10, 2017, 09:27:00 pm
Expect at least one reply about how your money has already gone to pay people and buy stuff for dev work. That's their standard operating bull****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 10, 2017, 09:52:28 pm
Do you have any idea how many McNuggets were purchased with your pledge?  If we refund your pledge, someone's going to have to yack all of those up and try to return them to some poor, unsuspecting fast food worker.  Wouldn't it be better to just keep your space-Winnebago(s)?  Heck, you could--instead of pursuing a refund--buy another space-Winnebago and keep the digestion of McNuggets proceeding in the correct direction.  If you won't think of us, at least think of the McNuggets.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 10, 2017, 10:10:09 pm
Wow. Hard to believe that Hard Light of all places would be such an obvious part of Derek Smart's FUD campaign. Chris Roberts is doing something that has never been done before, and they're pretty far along given that development only spooled up (that's a bit of Battlestar Galactica lingo for you) two years ago. I've got a Cutlass and she's a great ship to fly in the PU. And Star Marine is easily a $60 game by itself.
I was just playing a round of Titanfall 2 and I was just thinking how phenomenal it is that Chris Roberts (PBUH) has seen fit to not include anything in Star Marine like incredibly responsive wall-running movement, giant robots that each have a varied and vital role, cool powers that change how you move and fight like the grapple hook or phase cloak, and interesting character designs that illustrate the blurred line between man and machine in the fictional universe's narrative landscape. This allows Star Marine to get to, and excel at, the core FPS experience: awkwardly circle-strafing your opponents in rectangular rooms while holding down the left mouse button.

Thank you for reading.
Source your quotes

I am a robot designed to speak truthfully.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 11, 2017, 01:38:50 am
Do you have any idea how many McNuggets were purchased with your pledge?  If we refund your pledge, someone's going to have to yack all of those up and try to return them to some poor, unsuspecting fast food worker.  Wouldn't it be better to just keep your space-Winnebago(s)?  Heck, you could--instead of pursuing a refund--buy another space-Winnebago and keep the digestion of McNuggets proceeding in the correct direction.  If you won't think of us, at least think of the McNuggets.

Think about all the McNuggets I could have by returning my space-Winnebagos. Think about how long I gave you this loan of McNuggets. The space-Winnebagos aren't space ballsy enough. I'll take my McNuggets thank you.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 11, 2017, 04:17:42 am
Looool, CIG threaten full account bans, i.e. the loss of everything you paid for, if you post Rogue One spoilers (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n8xh5/the_saga_that_was_my_customer_support_ticket/).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 11, 2017, 08:29:21 am
I haven't asked for a refund yet for 2 reasons:

1) It's only $40 and it was like 4 years ago.

2) I can't wait to play the buggy, awful mess that will be Squadron 42. I still think it will come out, but whoa boy will it be bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 11, 2017, 08:50:38 am
Bloody mods.
Looool, CIG threaten full account bans, i.e. the loss of everything you paid for, if you post Rogue One spoilers (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n8xh5/the_saga_that_was_my_customer_support_ticket/).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 11, 2017, 09:27:12 am
(http://i.imgur.com/fvx2Exz.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 11, 2017, 11:13:07 am
The funniest part about all that is that CIG totally used to offer partial refunds.  They refunded me a Retaliator back in 2014.  I kept my Hornet (which I later sold on the grey market) and my account is still open.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 11, 2017, 01:19:16 pm
So, did they ban George Lucas for spoiling Rogue One in 1977?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 11, 2017, 02:26:52 pm
Lucas also ripped off the entire idea of space fighters from Chris Roberts' 11 year old mind.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 11, 2017, 04:43:06 pm
Lucas also ripped off the entire idea of space fighters from Chris Roberts' 11 year old mind.
Hosed if true
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2017, 05:06:18 pm
So how immersive is this game? I've got a buddy in Russia asking if it'd be a good fit for their presidential suite.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 11, 2017, 05:10:25 pm
So how immersive is this game? I've got a buddy in Russia asking if it'd be a good fit for their presidential suite.

It's so immersive that you've failed to realize you're already playing it.  You're forgiven for not noticing, though.  It's the eye-stabilization tech that makes the game almost indistinguishable from reality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 11, 2017, 08:14:45 pm
So how immersive is this game? I've got a buddy in Russia asking if it'd be a good fit for their presidential suite.

you've seen that scene in The Abyss with the rat, yeah?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 16, 2017, 05:57:40 pm
So far CIG's refund process seems to be a lot nicer than it used to be. They aren't quoting red tape crap at me yet, just saying how the open development process should make me more confident in what they're doing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 16, 2017, 06:18:32 pm
Yeah they switched tacks from denying refunds until someone threatened legal action to just trying to guilt you for it midway through last year, I think.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 16, 2017, 08:07:18 pm
Some dude just got a 7k refund.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 16, 2017, 08:54:12 pm
When is this supposedly getting released again?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 16, 2017, 09:17:42 pm
Last year, the year before that, this year, the year after. The release date is a very flexible thing. Its in a constant state of quantum flux.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 16, 2017, 09:18:10 pm
After Half-Life 3?  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 16, 2017, 11:07:06 pm
When is this supposedly getting released again?

It also depends on your definition of "released". They could call it "done" tomorrow, but keep fixing and changing and adding stuff until it actually works right, which might never happen really.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 16, 2017, 11:35:31 pm
When is this supposedly getting released again?

November 2014
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 17, 2017, 05:21:19 am
I just fired back with proof of Croberts saying they kept cash in reserve to finish if funding stopped, and then saying if that cash reserve has been blown through then it suggests colossal mismanagement of the project. There's no way for them to respond with a denial of refund with that.

Of course, it also helps that the last time I actually bought anything from CIG it was before they rewrote the ToS to say "If you want a refund, be aware you acknowledged that the scope of the project may change and delays can result from it..."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 17, 2017, 06:16:11 am
When is this supposedly getting released again?

It also depends on your definition of "released". They could call it "done" tomorrow, but keep fixing and changing and adding stuff until it actually works right, which might never happen really.

Technically speaking they have already released a thing :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 18, 2017, 03:09:41 pm
I am sure that's what they will also point to when confronted.

It's getting to the point that I think many backers will be surprised with how much the current thing they're playing will be called the "MVP". I'd say they have a couple of incremental patches and maybe one more major system to implement + SQ42, then they're done and are going to start laying people off. Someone else put it quite well when they said Chris will release a note saying the studio is "becoming more efficient" by eliminating people, and then they'll just continue to limp on for a couple years until a newer, better game comes out and does it better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 18, 2017, 03:12:40 pm
Well, the original ToS suggested a completed game with features by 2014 or 18 months past 2014, so...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on January 18, 2017, 04:28:26 pm
On a lighter note, if any of us develop time travel years in the future, could you come back and tell us how SC/SQ42 is doing?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 18, 2017, 04:51:01 pm
No game will ever release that can measure up to the hopes and dreams of SC fans.  A game that is everything for everyone and can only exist in their minds. That's why no matter what new games come out none of them will be as "ambitious" as SC and people will keep supporting it until it withers away into obsolescence.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 18, 2017, 05:09:31 pm
On a lighter note, if any of us develop time travel years in the future, could you come back and tell us how SC/SQ42 is doing?

Well, it's not looking good, and in our advancing age and otherwise starved for content in this thread, many of us have begun repeating ourselves....

On a lighter note, if any of us develop time travel years in the future, could you come back and tell us how SC/SQ42 is doing?

On a lighter note, if any of us develop time travel years in the future, could you come back and tell us how SC/SQ42 is doing?

On the bright side, once I head back to the future, I'll be hitting my 1,000th post soon, so maybe people will finally stop assuming I'm new around here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 19, 2017, 10:35:59 am
Well, it's not looking good, and in our advancing age and otherwise starved for content in this thread, many of us have begun repeating ourselves....
You content locust

Also hi, welcome to HLP :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 19, 2017, 02:02:41 pm
Also hi, welcome to HLP :)

Wasn't there supposed to be beams ... or something, in the past? ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 19, 2017, 02:06:11 pm
:welcome:

Had to dust the emitters off, is all.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on January 19, 2017, 11:13:22 pm
This thread is an eyesore. Do we want to be a nexus for Star Citizen toxicity on the Internet? We're already starting to attract people like BlueFlames who have registered specifically to participate in this flamewar. How long until people reminisce about the days that this used to be a FreeSpace website?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on January 19, 2017, 11:25:44 pm
Keeping open the possibility of Roberts' Law...

Quote
Date Registered:
    April 17, 2001, 03:00:00 am

Um.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 19, 2017, 11:39:30 pm
I believe that's the joke.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 19, 2017, 11:56:00 pm
From a Reddit thread on how unreadable the new cockpit displays are:

Quote
"Wait there was a HUD in this game at one point? WTF. Why in the world would they remove that. The MFDs always felt really low tech and old to me in this game (only got it at Christmas). I always wondered about that. Look at the F35 HUD and that today not 2000 years from now. That seems like a horrible decision."

Quote
"Straw man argument. Characters need clothes just as bad as ships need screens, and both can be developed and improved simultaneously without one interfering with the other."

Star Citizen: Flying by the seat of your pants.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5p0zoo/what_is_this_a_display_for_ants_even_when_zoomed/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on January 20, 2017, 12:18:17 am
(http://i.imgur.com/u7gaE5n.jpg)

Is that actually meant to be important information or is it like the Raptor displays in Diaspora, just set dressing?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 20, 2017, 04:33:15 am
Of course it's important info.  If it was just dressing, that just wouldn't be immersive enough.  It's **** like your ammo and missile displays.

But as we've established, not being able to see things is immersive.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on January 20, 2017, 04:36:46 am
Apparently, it is the height of realism that you have to use an awkward button combination in order to properly view that display.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 20, 2017, 04:44:14 am
You know, if your eyes were properly stabilized, then that monitor wouldn't be a problem.  Star Citizen will be the first game with a day-one patch for the players, instead of the game.

Incidentally, if Chris Roberts sneaks up behind you and shoves a USB dongle into your ear, don't panic.  He's fixing your problem.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 20, 2017, 05:10:56 am
Star Citizen's interface design is incredibly bad, it displays information in the least efficient ways imaginable and there's no affordance for anything at all. You can barely even tell when you're getting hit. Elite had this stuff all absolutely nailed from basically the first public alpha and here Star Citizen is, still making one step forward and two steps back five years into development, and the fanboys think it'll be the Elite-killer within this year.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 20, 2017, 07:56:54 am
My god, that cockpit is BAD.
It's almost like Robert saw a cockpit of the first X-wing game and decided to "improve" it by shrinking the instruments and adding the hand and feet of the pilot in the full front view.
I mean, GOOD GRIEF, visible hands and feet are already immersion-breaking but shrinking the cockpit instruments for their sake?
Seriously?
SERIOUSLY!?

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 20, 2017, 08:32:11 am
Apparently, it is the height of realism that you have to use an awkward button combination in order to properly view that display.
Battlecruiser 3000 AD was ahead of its time with "press Alt Gr + Tab + 9 to fire primary weapons". IMMURSHUN.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 20, 2017, 09:01:18 am
To be fiar,  I really liked the visible hands and the like in Wing Commander 1, but Wing Commander's UI was a lot more readable then that picture.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on January 20, 2017, 09:08:34 am
Elite had this stuff all absolutely nailed from basically the first public alpha and here Star Citizen is, still making one step forward and two steps back five years into development, and the fanboys think it'll be the Elite-killer within this year.

Funny thing is, Elite has its own set of problems so making an Elite-killer shouldn't be that hard. And it's not for a lack of trying, I don't think CIG announcing planetary landings soon after Elite's implementation of it, and a first mention of alien languages in a long time a week or two after Elite's alien encounter were merely coincidences.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on January 20, 2017, 09:22:52 am
It does strike me that if Elite wanted to make sure that they remained the best game of this type all they needed to do was release a list as long as their arm of features they were thinking of adding and say that they were seeing how many of them are viable. Then they would only have to say that they'd picked 2 or 3 which would appear in later updates (without naming which ones) and watch as CIG spent the next 10 years trying to implement all of them.


Of course there is probably a conspiracy theorist out there who will argue that they actually did that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on January 20, 2017, 10:12:43 am
Unfortunately people would accept that list as a gospel and throw a fit when some of entries weren't implemented. And that's in the very, very, very unlikely event that Elite's devs communicated everything perfectly.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 20, 2017, 01:06:56 pm
Why go through the effort. Just let them make a good game and watch CIG do..... things.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on January 20, 2017, 01:32:06 pm
Unfortunately people would accept that list as a gospel and throw a fit when some of entries weren't implemented. And that's in the very, very, very unlikely event that Elite's devs communicated everything perfectly.

Except that is what is actually happening. There's a lot of things that FDEV speculates about doing or even has on their roadmap that, if they were all implemented, would make Elite into what Star Citizen wants to become (minus the lengthy solo campaign with tons actors, of course).

The difference is that these are all things that get added onto an already functional game, not things that are considered necessary for release of a minimum viable product.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on January 20, 2017, 02:30:10 pm
Unfortunately people would accept that list as a gospel and throw a fit when some of entries weren't implemented. And that's in the very, very, very unlikely event that Elite's devs communicated everything perfectly.

Except that is what is actually happening. There's a lot of things that FDEV speculates about doing or even has on their roadmap that, if they were all implemented, would make Elite into what Star Citizen wants to become (minus the lengthy solo campaign with tons actors, of course).

The difference is that these are all things that get added onto an already functional game, not things that are considered necessary for release of a minimum viable product.

I think the difference lies in details of those features. Both games are supposed to have planetary landings (barren/atmospheric/earth-like), walking around ships/stations/planetary surfaces, EVA and multicrew. Besides that, details are sparse, which gives FD the space to adapt, if for example they find out that multicrew is unusable for anything save for handling turrets or parasitic craft (fighters/SRVs).
Defining them further, like saying that EVA gives you an ability to repair your ship on the fly, might be dangerous if it turns out that, for example, repairing during combat/between fights is impossible because of short time to kill. Or saying that transfer between ship and EVA will be seamless, and seeing as CIG has visible problems with implementation of that system make me believe it's not as easy to do as it looks.
 The same problem would be present if FD were to release their 10-year roadmap, some of the entries on that list might turn out to be unimplementable in three years time, and that might annoy some people who have counted on that feature making it into the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 20, 2017, 03:46:13 pm
To be fair,  I really liked the visible hands and the like in Wing Commander 1, but Wing Commander's UI was a lot more readable then that picture.
I've found them a bit weird in the WC games but at least as you said they didn't take from the readability of the cockpit instruments.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 21, 2017, 04:33:45 am
It does strike me that if Elite wanted to make sure that they remained the best game of this type all they needed to do was release a list as long as their arm of features they were thinking of adding and say that they were seeing how many of them are viable. Then they would only have to say that they'd picked 2 or 3 which would appear in later updates (without naming which ones) and watch as CIG spent the next 10 years trying to implement all of them.


Of course there is probably a conspiracy theorist out there who will argue that they actually did that.

Personally ... I think the main reason why there is more hype for SC than ED is that SC sells ships and people are highly attached to things that they spent a lot of money on - even more so than to things that they spent a lot of time on (grinding), although that works as well for many people, as countless mundane MMOs have shown us. And the best thing of course is that right now people are "dreaming" about what they can do with their incredibly expensive and therefore "valuable" ships. Released games, like ED, have clearly defined limits in what you can do. Dreams do not.


You see ... Elite really doesn't have a chance in this contest. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on January 21, 2017, 05:52:27 am
I think the main reason for SC > ED hype is that in Elite the player is glued to the seat, while in SC there is the entire walking around gameplay making SC much bigger and more appealing for wider demographic. If Elite finally gets to implement walking around it may generate lots of hype and depending on the future state of SC maybe even eclipse it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 21, 2017, 07:41:06 am
I think the main reason for SC > ED hype is that in Elite the player is glued to the seat, while in SC there is the entire walking around gameplay making SC much bigger and more appealing for wider demographic. If Elite finally gets to implement walking around it may generate lots of hype and depending on the future state of SC maybe even eclipse it.

There's more hype around SC because more people played Wing Commander or Freelancer than Elite and its sequels, Wing Commander was essentially Call of Duty at the time, the only reason I didn't play it at the time was that I lived in the arse-end of nowhere and the X-wing games had better distribution in Italy thanks to the now defunct CTO that kept reprinting them in budget form.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 21, 2017, 08:20:57 am
This thread is an eyesore. Do we want to be a nexus for Star Citizen toxicity on the Internet? We're already starting to attract people like BlueFlames who have registered specifically to participate in this flamewar. How long until people reminisce about the days that this used to be a FreeSpace website?

https://youtu.be/Ydu0DZjhEhs?t=18s
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 21, 2017, 09:24:16 am
Does anyone have the sensation that there is a sort of endless cycle in this thread?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on January 21, 2017, 10:53:18 am
Much like the game in question, then?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 21, 2017, 12:29:19 pm
Does anyone have the sensation that there is a sort of endless cycle in this thread?
History repeats itself
A cycle never ending
Ship sales are eternal
Aquire a new jpg today
2.6.2 will be soon, it will make half your dreams come true
Get a refund citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 21, 2017, 02:44:39 pm
Does anyone have the sensation that there is a sort of endless cycle in this thread?
History repeats itself
A cycle never ending
Ship sales are eternal
Aquire a new jpg today
2.6.2 will be soon, it will make half your dreams come true
Get a refund citizen.

Mhhhh I do remember some threads from just about one or two months ago where people were talking about how "3.0" would come right after "2.6" ... maybe even as soon as Christmas or shortly after ... haha LOL.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 21, 2017, 03:00:33 pm
History repeats itself
A cycle never ending
Ship sales are eternal
Aquire a new jpg today
2.6.2 will be soon, it will make half your dreams come true
Get a refund citizen.

Half my dreams are nightmares, and the other half are horrors beyond description.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 21, 2017, 04:16:35 pm
saaandi sandi, you my unmade game
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 21, 2017, 05:30:30 pm
History repeats itself
A cycle never ending
Ship sales are eternal
Aquire a new jpg today
2.6.2 will be soon, it will make half your dreams come true
Get a refund citizen.

Half my dreams are nightmares, and the other half are horrors beyond description.

They say that Star Citizens have no present. Only a past filled with horrors, and a future they can only dream of.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on January 21, 2017, 07:25:12 pm
DUNNNN.   DUNNNN.  DUNNNN.  DUN-DUNNNNNNN.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 21, 2017, 07:33:50 pm
from our odyssey into development hell, we return with a gift which should be in public testing within three weeks
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 21, 2017, 09:36:38 pm
i demand unfettered access to the evocati test server
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 21, 2017, 11:04:43 pm
Your postering insults us both Commando, I will not give up my .JPEGs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 23, 2017, 08:00:55 am

It's even worse in motion, there is still that energy triangle thing that was crappy already in Wing Commander V and it's still crappy now.

Even with zooming some menus are still barely readable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 23, 2017, 08:30:02 am


FTFY

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 23, 2017, 08:36:38 am
One: why does the helmet overlay have a delayed reaction to head movement?
Two: Those are UI sounds from Elite: Dangerous. So many comparisons already.
Three: Oh good, clickable surfaces. It's DCS in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 23, 2017, 09:01:35 am
Gun sounds are still amazing.

pew pew pew
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on January 23, 2017, 10:28:14 am
I hope it still takes half an hour's shooting to kill stuff so you have time to navigate windows explorer in your cockpit.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 23, 2017, 10:41:37 am
On the plus side, that cockpit doesn't obscure your view of the outside in a horribly obnoxious manner.  On that level it's actually pretty good.  Shame the displays are dumb.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 23, 2017, 10:50:16 am
Do you really want me to draw a mask over that cockpit to show you how it obscures more than 50% of the screen area?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 23, 2017, 11:00:28 am
Yeah, and then you can look at a real world aircraft and see how the same thing happens in real life. Not that I'm justifying their choice. Just saying you're complaining about something that is equivalent to real life.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 23, 2017, 11:06:37 am
Yeah, and then you can look at a real world aircraft and see how the same thing happens in real life. Not that I'm justifying their choice. Just saying you're complaining about something that is equivalent to real life.

Uh-huh. So why is it that real-world aircraft don't have displays you have to cycle through with arrow buttons to get to? Why isn't the ETS its own gauge? That seems like something you'd need up-front, but it's not. Weapons and fuel, too. Real-world aircraft have everything clearly marked and displayed in a manner that allows for quick recognition so the pilot doesn't have to look away for more than a few seconds. The only thing that changes is the MFDs, but even those have clearly marked options to choose from.

Actually look at how real-world aircraft cockpits operate, then try to compare. I mean... do you even know how cockpits work or do you just know how they look in movies and ****?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 23, 2017, 01:56:16 pm
I was talking about how much of the view is obscured by the craft itself. Not the lousy MFDs that should have individual buttons for each function.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 23, 2017, 02:19:21 pm
One: why does the helmet overlay have a delayed reaction to head movement?

it's an immersive simulation of real life, where helmets have tremendous inertia and are attached to the head by means of a delicate web of springs
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on January 23, 2017, 04:47:14 pm
Sorry for the lock, guys.  My phone is stupid, and I didn't notice until now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 23, 2017, 04:59:38 pm
One: why does the helmet overlay have a delayed reaction to head movement?

it's an immersive simulation of real life, where helmets have tremendous inertia and are attached to the head by means of a delicate web of springs

You are the man playing the man in a simulated BDSSE who is turning his head with the helmet on. A delayed reaction is to be expected.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 23, 2017, 08:55:39 pm
Yeah, and then you can look at a real world aircraft and see how the same thing happens in real life. Not that I'm justifying their choice. Just saying you're complaining about something that is equivalent to real life.

This is true, however videogames shouldn't mimic real life cockpits unless they expect ALL of their audience to have real-life view areas. Even with a triple monitor setup you're still short of real-life FOVs and missing most of the vertical AOV. If you ever sat in a real-world cockpit you'd know that it's nowhere near as restrictive with your real viewing angles compared to compressing that same cockpit that's a metre+ in diagonal to a 24'' screen. Videogames should be designed with a monitor in mind, not some futuristic device that can give you realistic viewing angles.

For racing games most people usually just set the FOV to 50-55 so all you can see is the road but if you're expected to read and use all these gauges then you can't just make them go away by lowering the FOV.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on January 23, 2017, 09:07:15 pm
Who said anything about any sort of futuristic devices? I was talking about the fact that you can't see through the solid parts of the cockpit, like where the instrumentation is. HUDs, HMDs, and/or MFDs help, because you don't need as many displays, but the cockpit is still mostly stuff that is in the way of seeing outside. The much greater viewing area you refer to is mainly above and to the sides of the flight crew. And without full on holographic environment displays, you'll never simulate that in a game. Well, maybe someone might make some insane purpose built rig with screens all over, but then they'd have to make a game that supported this arrangement. In any case ****ty MFD controls in that demo vid aside, there are real world planes where you can't see out as well as that craft. Ever play Air Warrior II? It only uses real world aircraft, from World War I through Korea. Some of those planes are terrible for seeing out, with too many struts in the canopy, creating all sorts of blind spots.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 23, 2017, 09:11:08 pm
Sorry for the lock, guys.  My phone is stupid, and I didn't notice until now.

It wasn't the moderation we needed.  It was the moderation we deserved.  ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 23, 2017, 09:38:03 pm
Laineys do you have reading comprehension issues?
I explained in my previous post just why those restrictive cockpits aren't nearly as restrictive when you're actually sitting in them in real life compared to viewing them compressed onto a monitor.
Blind spots stay the same, sure, but a cockpit that takes 50% of your monitor doesn't take 50% of your real-life view angle. And that's why you have to adjust those cockpits because not everyone has a triple monitor setup and they're just annoying on a single-monitor when they eat up so much of your view.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 24, 2017, 03:47:16 am
Yeah, and then you can look at a real world aircraft and see how the same thing happens in real life. Not that I'm justifying their choice. Just saying you're complaining about something that is equivalent to real life.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You're so right, I totally forgot about the IMMERSION!!!  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 24, 2017, 04:06:22 am
Do you really want me to draw a mask over that cockpit to show you how it obscures more than 50% of the screen area?
I'd be really surprised if it obscured 50% of screen area when looking straight ahead (say, at 0:02).

I could also just refer you to Kobrar's earlier post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1800812#msg1800812) on cockpits.  The Sabre's cockpit is pretty well arranged.  Of course, it's ruined by the fact that almost all of the useful info is on barely readable MFDs and not on a HUD like a well designed space sim interface, but that's SC for you.  One step forward, two steps back.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 24, 2017, 04:19:39 am
There's also the fact that in real world cockpits, you're not really needing all that extra space to see. There's the the sky, and there's the ground. Radars and other assists do the rest of the work. Half the goddamn forward view shouldn't be obscured in a space game because spacial awareness is more of a factor there. Are we saying that in a thousand years humanity has yet to produce a helmet with a HUD overlay for important things like self and target data and radar?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 24, 2017, 04:33:51 am
0:02? Fair point. That's more like 1/4 of the screen. Still hate it though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on January 24, 2017, 07:22:15 am
There's also the fact that in real world cockpits, you're not really needing all that extra space to see. There's the the sky, and there's the ground. Radars and other assists do the rest of the work. Half the goddamn forward view shouldn't be obscured in a space game because spacial awareness is more of a factor there. Are we saying that in a thousand years humanity has yet to produce a helmet with a HUD overlay for important things like self and target data and radar?

The Star Marines are still running around with H&K G36Cs so apparently technology has only advanced in fits and starts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 24, 2017, 07:31:50 am
Which is funny when you think about it, because as it turns out, when the Bundeswehr actually had to use the damn things they turned out hilariously inadequate for the use they were intended.

If they want to be realistic the rifles should be constantly overheating.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on January 24, 2017, 08:23:46 am
What bugs me are the manually operated turrets. We haven't had those since, like...1945? The B-29 had remotely operated turrets, and then the last aircraft to have a tail gunner in the US inventory, the B-52, has an auto-tracking turret.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 24, 2017, 06:36:52 pm
Isn't Star Citizen set in the year 4000 or something?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 24, 2017, 07:20:55 pm
Isn't Star Citizen set in the year 4000 or something?

Crafty bastards leaked the release date, right under our noses!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 24, 2017, 08:31:05 pm
What bugs me are the manually operated turrets. We haven't had those since, like...1945? The B-29 had remotely operated turrets, and then the last aircraft to have a tail gunner in the US inventory, the B-52, has an auto-tracking turret.

Because Star Wars has manually-operated turrets. Also an excuse for multicrew.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 24, 2017, 08:40:35 pm
In any case ****ty MFD controls in that demo vid aside, there are real world planes where you can't see out as well as that craft. Ever play Air Warrior II? It only uses real world aircraft, from World War I through Korea. Some of those planes are terrible for seeing out, with too many struts in the canopy, creating all sorts of blind spots.

Just want to point out - those are OLD planes. If you look at modern fighters, they often have cockpits that minimise struts and maximise visiblity. The F16 is famed for its excellent fov from the cockpit and that plane has been flying for over 40 years now.

Star Citizen wants to be WW2 Rome In Space, with realistic immersion, yet fails to make concessions to common sense military expediency.

Back to lurking now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 24, 2017, 08:47:13 pm
http://www.pcinvasion.com/star-citizen-star-marine-impressions
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 24, 2017, 09:40:06 pm
I love the comments for those articles. In one post there's a guy saying all the refunds are lies and an attempt to make the SC devs look bad.

I just can't believe all the people blindly praising and going along with all this. They still have ****ing pre-Alpha builds after five years.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 25, 2017, 12:39:23 am
Speaking of refunds, I got mine last week. The person I was dealing with was actually pretty nice about the whole thing. It probably helped I was expecting the absolute worst.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 25, 2017, 01:05:31 am
Gillian Anderson is in this?

Awww nooooooooooooo. Now my schoolboy crushes are imparting unfair bias.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 25, 2017, 02:01:06 am
don't worry, she won't be dangerously alluring once cig's art team are done with her

(it would not do, after all, for her character to be sexier than sandi's)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Azrael15 on January 25, 2017, 02:49:02 am
Gillian Anderson is in this?

Awww nooooooooooooo. Now my schoolboy crushes are imparting unfair bias.

It's unclear whether any of the big name talent are still involved. I've heard that all the motion capture stuff had to be thrown out. You'd think it'd be easy as heck to drum up a fancy trailer with Oldman (not Old Man, the character played by Mark Hamill), Hamill, Anderson or whoever else.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 25, 2017, 05:17:39 am
So even the rule 34 of Star Citizen will be ****ty?

Can anything of this be salvaged?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 25, 2017, 05:24:16 am
Who is sandi and when did Gillianderson turn blonde????
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 25, 2017, 06:57:20 am
Who is sandi and when did Gillianderson turn blonde????

Some biographical data from an unbiased source. (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3773270&pagenumber=4#post465725093)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on January 25, 2017, 07:21:34 am
Who is sandi and when did Gillianderson turn blonde????

I think she was only a red head for the X-Files.  She was blonde in The Fall and Hannibal.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 25, 2017, 02:21:25 pm
Well his wife is a dog.
And scully will forever remain fond in my heart.
Except SC tainted her and now she's off the list. ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 26, 2017, 09:51:50 am
Well his wife is a dog.
And scully will forever remain fond in my heart.
Except SC tainted her and now she's off the list. ;)

What list is that? ......... erhm, wait, I don't think I want to know. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 29, 2017, 09:39:50 pm
Leaks
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on January 29, 2017, 09:52:20 pm
Quite the motley crew of names there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 30, 2017, 05:14:22 am
Leaks


Wee very nearly came out in front of my in laws.  That ending score.....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 30, 2017, 02:26:16 pm
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 31, 2017, 04:14:29 am
(http://i.imgur.com/0iqh0Ip.jpg) (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5qhsuc/youtuber_totalbiscuit_shares_his_thoughts_on/dd04kh7/?context=3)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 31, 2017, 04:37:57 am
I... wat
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 31, 2017, 04:44:10 am
He's doing the "everything before kickstarter was just for show" defense. I'd counter that that also applies to everything shown since then but hey.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 31, 2017, 11:49:56 am
Citizens presented alternative facts before they were cool.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 31, 2017, 05:10:06 pm
Even by that definition things are getting stale.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on January 31, 2017, 07:10:12 pm
Thank god I left earlier this month. Spinning your wheels isn't progress and being continuously behind schedule doesn't reflect well on anyone.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 01, 2017, 06:43:02 pm
Even by that definition things are getting stale.

Stale? What are you talking about?

They just (semiofficially) (pre) announced (through Ben) the new upcoming concept sale of the Anvil Hurricane and the entire forum is getting their wallets ready in excitement! ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on February 01, 2017, 08:10:06 pm
The latest PC Gamer came in, with a quite interesting cover article:

(http://i.imgur.com/b8SCmh0.jpg)

(Implying it'll be done in 2017)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 02, 2017, 12:51:37 am
SC's been in "Biggest/Most Anticipated Games of 201*" lists for years now.  It's just funny at this point.  What's funnier is that it has a pretty good chance of being in "Biggest/Most Anticipated Games of 202*" lists too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 02, 2017, 05:11:01 am
SC's been in "Biggest/Most Anticipated Games of 201*" lists for years now.  It's just funny at this point.  What's funnier is that it has a pretty good chance of being in "Biggest/Most Anticipated Games of 202*" lists too.

The cut off point for me was when they just axed the long promised "Squadron 42" vertical slice. First they hype it for months and then .... uhhhh sorry guys no show!

That's when I requested my refund. ;-) Not that there weren't countless valid reasons/disappointments to do it earlier, but that was the final straw for me.


Frankly ... if they have much of anything to show that resembles a somewhat "complete/working" game this year (rather than simple tech demos that look more like development dead ends than anything resembling true "progress" towards their lofty promises) I would be hugely surprised. Same for next year.

From my perspective, they appear to be either unwilling or unable to do the necessary architectural groundwork for a game of this size and instead keep fumbling around with their completely unsuited engine while (surprise!) hitting one roadblock after the other. I'm not even convinced that it is malicious. More likely it's a classic case with the mother of all feature creeps, without any kind of solid foundation, being tampered with by way too many cooks to ever produce anything worthwhile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on February 04, 2017, 12:20:43 am
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizen-regional-servers-coming-sooner/1100-6447551/?utm_source=gamefaqs&utm_medium=partner&utm_content=news_module&utm_campaign=hub_platform

Roberts says regional servers are progressing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2017, 01:11:18 am
What a fun way to divide the player base.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 04, 2017, 09:28:51 am
What a fun way to divide the player base.

With a real time based space combat game they kinda have to provide low latency regional servers to make it decently playable, or don't they?

Don't really want to defend them, don't take me wrong. I have my own grudges by now, but this move at least was to me expected imho.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 04, 2017, 03:42:46 pm
More likely it's a classic case with the mother of all feature creeps, without any kind of solid foundation, being tampered with by way too many cooks to ever produce anything worthwhile.
From everything I've heard, it's just one cook who doesn't know what he's doing and refuses to listen when people with experience tell him X is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 05, 2017, 12:59:38 am
What a fun way to divide the player base.

With a real time based space combat game they kinda have to provide low latency regional servers to make it decently playable, or don't they?

Don't really want to defend them, don't take me wrong. I have my own grudges by now, but this move at least was to me expected imho.

True, but I fear there'll be a Call of Duty on PC effect where there's only a few thousand people on at a given time to populate the game universe. It'll be like Elite, except in certain systems known for money-making.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 05, 2017, 09:21:04 am
What a fun way to divide the player base.

With a real time based space combat game they kinda have to provide low latency regional servers to make it decently playable, or don't they?

Don't really want to defend them, don't take me wrong. I have my own grudges by now, but this move at least was to me expected imho.

True, but I fear there'll be a Call of Duty on PC effect where there's only a few thousand people on at a given time to populate the game universe. It'll be like Elite, except in certain systems known for money-making.

I've read somewhere that CR intends for there to be a live Mo-cap news anchor reporting on events in the game world. This would require Eve-level activity from the playerbase both to provide news worth reporting and to fund it, but without any of Eve's capabilities for holding vast numbers of players in the same instance (assuming I'm using those terms correctly). Flash > Substance, Citizen!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 05, 2017, 12:35:49 pm
I've read somewhere that CR intends for there to be a live Mo-cap news anchor reporting on events in the game world.

Glorious leader relays news items to host for first broadcast (https://polysyllabicprofundities.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/ace-ventura-butt.jpg).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 05, 2017, 01:19:50 pm
Wouldn't that be odd though, to have reports on a galaxy influenced by a server that's not the one you're on?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 05, 2017, 07:12:11 pm
Well, if they are planning to do servers as distinct "sectors" of the game world that would make sense - not everything newsworthy happens in one country, after all.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 06, 2017, 09:12:30 am
Is there a plan to have these sectors related in any way? International events can affect everyone. I suspect this is not the case for SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 06, 2017, 09:48:19 am
Also, hope you weren't hoping it would have VR

http://www.roadtovr.com/star-citizen-senior-dev-vr-support-dont-hold-breath/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on February 06, 2017, 11:05:53 am
Wouldn't that be odd though, to have reports on a galaxy influenced by a server that's not the one you're on?

I constantly get reports of a world influenced by a country that's not the one I'm in all the ****ing time
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 06, 2017, 11:08:59 am
Also, hope you weren't hoping it would have VR

http://www.roadtovr.com/star-citizen-senior-dev-vr-support-dont-hold-breath/
Second Kickstarter promise broken (third if you count the release date).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 06, 2017, 01:07:58 pm
Wouldn't that be odd though, to have reports on a galaxy influenced by a server that's not the one you're on?

I constantly get reports of a world influenced by a country that's not the one I'm in all the ****ing time

You just had to get political with it. For ****'s sake. That's not even what I meant.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on February 06, 2017, 01:40:12 pm
I've already messaged Cobra directly about this, but further political discussion in this thread will be removed and you will be issued a warning. Please take all political discussion to GD.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 07, 2017, 03:33:58 am
Also, hope you weren't hoping it would have VR

http://www.roadtovr.com/star-citizen-senior-dev-vr-support-dont-hold-breath/

VR is still planned, see this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rbiwv/regarding_vr_dont_hold_your_breath/dd6tq37/?st=iyn6b3zd&sh=3dbc0bd4

But it wont happen anytime soon.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 07, 2017, 03:40:56 am
Is there a plan to have these sectors related in any way? International events can affect everyone. I suspect this is not the case for SC.

You cant have as many players as EVE in a single instance in a twitch based game. Last time I heard the plan is to dynamically add instances based on latency. So if the pings are low for everyone, there will be only one instance. But when too many players join an area or possibly when people from a distant region of the world join the area, another instance will be created for them. Overall situation in the wider universe should be influenced by sum of what is happening in all instances of the area.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 07, 2017, 06:58:12 am
I still don't see why people are following star ****izen after being charged 70 real life dollar pounds for a torpedo! !!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 07, 2017, 07:35:32 am
Also, hope you weren't hoping it would have VR

http://www.roadtovr.com/star-citizen-senior-dev-vr-support-dont-hold-breath/

VR is still planned, see this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rbiwv/regarding_vr_dont_hold_your_breath/dd6tq37/?st=iyn6b3zd&sh=3dbc0bd4

But it wont happen anytime soon.

I mean yea I guess if the original article on it was written in 2012 and now in 2017 they're saying "Don't hold your breath, but maybe someday later" and then totally believe them when they say it's still planned, well I dunno.

But someone  can answer me this question because I'm not super great on VR type stuff. What's the normal good framerate for a VR game? The article states they'd likely have to boost it in SC to get it work well in VR?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 07, 2017, 07:45:02 am
But someone  can answer me this question because I'm not super great on VR type stuff. What's the normal good framerate for a VR game? The article states they'd likely have to boost it in SC to get it work well in VR?

I have a Vive. VR games need 90 frames per second.

Star Citizen maps run a lot better in offline mode, so the main bottleneck seems to be netcode optimization.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 07, 2017, 07:56:50 am
But someone  can answer me this question because I'm not super great on VR type stuff. What's the normal good framerate for a VR game? The article states they'd likely have to boost it in SC to get it work well in VR?

Yeah, both Oculus and Valve recommend a stable framerate of around 90 FPS for a comfortable VR experience. Star Citizen is obviously pretty far away from that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 07, 2017, 08:55:06 am
At least they recognized that they're nowhere near the state in which VR is a good idea. Given how it's been going so far, you'd expect them to cheerfully start working for it, only to find, after implementation, that it's completely unplayable. Had they approached everything like this, chances are they'd have something enjoyable at this point...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 07, 2017, 09:18:24 am
I mean, they could always just cheat and use reprojection like the PSVR to inflate their framerates.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 07, 2017, 09:28:38 am
But someone  can answer me this question because I'm not super great on VR type stuff. What's the normal good framerate for a VR game? The article states they'd likely have to boost it in SC to get it work well in VR?

Yeah, both Oculus and Valve recommend a stable framerate of around 90 FPS for a comfortable VR experience. Star Citizen is obviously pretty far away from that.

As in, they'd need to quadruple the hard cap on framerates for universe gameplay to work in VR.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on February 07, 2017, 12:49:08 pm
I think it's something about their multiplayer that brings down the framerate, I think some people have managed to play PU in offline mode, and framerates were far better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 07, 2017, 12:52:10 pm
Oh great, an MMO that works perfectly as long as you don't try to play it online or in some kind of massively-multiplayer fashion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 07, 2017, 12:58:09 pm
I think it's something about their multiplayer that brings down the framerate, I think some people have managed to play PU in offline mode, and framerates were far better.
  It's their netcode.  It literally can't handle all the info if the game runs at 90FPS.  It locks the game at 30 or so.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on February 07, 2017, 01:08:16 pm
But...lumberyard!? it's already in place?!!? power of the cloud  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 07, 2017, 01:21:50 pm
So SC, while in online play, is currently running under 60fps? So not only can they not reach a goal they set to make in 2012 (at least not any time soon) but also can't make the game run on anything even close to it online, which is the entire point?

I guess if they split it up among regions maybe but this could have serious loading times for a seamless space to ground to space game right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 07, 2017, 02:06:22 pm
SC is the first multiplayer game, where I heard that client-side FPS is locked to server-side tick rate.
Is this a CryEngine thing? Or common in MMOs?
In every multuplayer game I ever played, server lag results in characters jumping around or some rubberbanding. But never in reduced renderering FPS.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 07, 2017, 02:10:58 pm
SC is the first multiplayer game, where I heard that client-side FPS is locked to server-side tick rate.
Is this a CryEngine thing? Or common in MMOs?
In every multuplayer game I ever played, server lag results in characters jumping around or some rubberbanding. But never in reduced renderering FPS.

Who even knows at this point. Fact is, the CryEngine netcode was never intended to scale to MMO levels, and I have little faith in CIGs ability to come up with a better one.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 08, 2017, 05:46:56 pm
SC is the first multiplayer game, where I heard that client-side FPS is locked to server-side tick rate.
Is this a CryEngine thing? Or common in MMOs?
In every multuplayer game I ever played, server lag results in characters jumping around or some rubberbanding. But never in reduced renderering FPS.

Who even knows at this point. Fact is, the CryEngine netcode was never intended to scale to MMO levels, and I have little faith in CIGs ability to come up with a better one.

Spaghetticode can cause frame rate issues, no matter where exactly in the game it is.

I must know because my first C++ 2d pew pew game ran at 7 fps :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 10, 2017, 07:44:04 pm
(https://ibin.co/3ByP7PuP0Vdc.jpg)
I dont know about you guys, but I've been enjoying the game for over a year now. It's absolutely amazing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 10, 2017, 07:46:29 pm
Posting on page 100
Gotta put my party hat on.


lol this trainwreck of a project
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 10, 2017, 07:53:54 pm
Whenever my email says Spoon posted a reply I already know it's gonna be good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 10, 2017, 11:52:53 pm
[image snip]
I dont know about you guys, but I've been enjoying the game for over a year now. It's absolutely amazing.

Pfft.  Real citizens got their boxed copies for Christmas.  Don't believe me?  Here's mine:

(http://i.imgur.com/2VyJtsrh.jpg)

They even needed two disks to store all the content!

(http://i.imgur.com/mPzD6M7h.jpg)

The box art is a little derivative, I'll grant, but clearly the budget has been spent well on the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 12, 2017, 07:55:35 am
Pfft.  Real citizens got their boxed copies for Christmas.  Don't believe me?  Here's mine:
[snip]
  :lol:
Underrated post


I dont have anything else to add, because cig is being boring.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on February 12, 2017, 08:19:16 am
(https://ibin.co/3ByP7PuP0Vdc.jpg)
I dont know about you guys, but I've been enjoying the game for over a year now. It's absolutely amazing.
Indeed you have. Posting about all this glorious game's loveable bugs. Even the bugs in Star Citizen far outclass the bugs in other games! :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 12, 2017, 11:21:12 am
Few games have given me this much amusement for this long, without having actually released anything worthwhile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 12, 2017, 01:33:44 pm
Quote from: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15704-Monthly-Studio-Report
The Oxygen, Breathing & Stamina systems have started being implemented and soon we will have players begin to carry their own oxygen supplies or risk turning blue in the face. The system should handle everything from how the oxygen tank delivers breathable air to the helmet, to how the player breathes said air and how his body converts that into actual usable stamina. At the same time, all actions are being converted to consume this stamina, so you will want to keep your character supplied with oxygen if you want them to be capable of performing various actions.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on February 12, 2017, 01:53:42 pm
Breathy Lungs
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on February 12, 2017, 01:53:59 pm
Pumpy Hearts
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on February 12, 2017, 01:54:25 pm
Poopy Butts
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on February 12, 2017, 03:25:26 pm
Citizen has defeated wild samich!
Citizen has reached LVL 2!

Citizen wants to learn "Poop" but Citizen can't learn more than four moves.

Delete an old move?

Congratulation Citizen forgot "Breathe" and learned "Poop"

Citizen has fainted.

Citizen used "Poop!"  The attack was ineffective.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 12, 2017, 04:47:07 pm
Only 35 bucks for active alveoli.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on February 12, 2017, 09:19:37 pm
I'm of the opinion we should just figure out if we can extract models from SC and make a Squadron 42 mod. Just to embarrass people. :p


Actually anything we did in that direction would get us massive amounts of publicity.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: hack-wizard on February 12, 2017, 09:22:17 pm
Sad thing is, if I had the money and hardware ... I'd be wanting to support StarCitizen.  Maybe that's a bad idea, but I've always at least generally liked, if not loved, Chris Robert's games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Darius on February 12, 2017, 11:51:00 pm
I'm of the opinion we should just figure out if we can extract models from SC and make a Squadron 42 mod. Just to embarrass people. :p


Actually anything we did in that direction would get us massive amounts of publicity.

Aesaar exported the Gladius to see if we could use it in BP as a Kulas replacement. It was a 1.5 million poly model. There was a 50K poly spherical doodad behind the pilot's head (where no one was going to see it). It turned out to be too inefficiently modelled to be able to optimise the poly count so might as well rebuild from scratch.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 13, 2017, 12:07:06 am
I'm of the opinion we should just figure out if we can extract models from SC and make a Squadron 42 mod. Just to embarrass people. :p


Actually anything we did in that direction would get us massive amounts of publicity.

Aesaar exported the Gladius to see if we could use it in BP as a Kulas replacement. It was a 1.5 million poly model. There was a 50K poly spherical doodad behind the pilot's head (where no one was going to see it). It turned out to be too inefficiently modelled to be able to optimise the poly count so might as well rebuild from scratch.

Pshaw, 1.5 million? Efficient modeling? The CryEngine can handle infinite polygons!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 13, 2017, 12:37:27 am
I'm of the opinion we should just figure out if we can extract models from SC and make a Squadron 42 mod. Just to embarrass people. :p


Actually anything we did in that direction would get us massive amounts of publicity.
Well, MatthTheGeek already beat them to the dogfight module (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86331.0) years ago.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 13, 2017, 04:19:30 am
An unseen 50k polygon sphere....


That has to be an insider's joke.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 13, 2017, 05:19:06 am
I wonder if that sphere has something to do with viewpoints and HUDs. Considering their screwy ways of doing things it could be possible...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 13, 2017, 06:40:34 am
I'm of the opinion we should just figure out if we can extract models from SC and make a Squadron 42 mod. Just to embarrass people. :p


Actually anything we did in that direction would get us massive amounts of publicity.
Well, MatthTheGeek already beat them to the dogfight module (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86331.0) years ago.

First reply on that topic:-

This is awesome! Downloading now.  :D

Chris has to try hard if he's gonna beat the FSO space combat gameplay.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 14, 2017, 04:30:17 pm
HLP, show me your love by buying me jpg's: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15707-V-Day-Sale-Love-Is-In-The-Air-and-Space
Quote
This Valentine’s Day, we’ve got love and rockets! What better time to introduce that special someone to the wonders of Star Citizen? To that end, we’ve created a special offer that focuses on ships that let you take on the galaxy together. From the stylish 85x runabout (perfect for a romantic evening watching the traffic at Port Olisar) to the massive Starfarer Gemini tanker (room for the whole family… and then some!), we have multi-crew ships for every occasion — plus special discounts on two-packs!

Not quite ready to commit? We’re also giving you (and your loved ones) the opportunity to try Star Citizen for free! Just click HERE, use the code SHARETHELOVE and you’ll receive access to a multi-crew Constellation Andromeda to test fly through Sunday, February 20th. Ready to bring a friend to Arena Commander, Star Marine, Crusader and beyond? A limited number of discount starter packages are also available below. Sale runs through February 28, 2017 or while supplies last.

Quote
Thinking about getting serious? Nothing says ‘I care’ like the rugged Aegis Vanguard deep space fighter, a favorite among long range mercenary pilots and well-armed explorers alike. With firepower and the ability to get you and your co-pilot out of the most dangerous situations, the twin-boom Vanguard design is a favorite from Earth to the frontier.

By popular request, we are also making available the Battlefield Upgrade Kits (BUKs) for the Vanguard line, which allow captains to swap between variants on a single chassis. Please note that these upgrades are not available in the current alpha build of Star Citizen; their functionality will be added in a future patch.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 14, 2017, 04:31:49 pm
Please be fast about it
These are limited digital stocks after all
My love won't last forever
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 15, 2017, 05:23:17 am
Nothing says "I love you" like "Can I interest you in these jpegs?  Only 250$!"

Alternatively: "I gave 250$ to my cult because I love you!"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 15, 2017, 05:27:24 am
HLP, show me your love by buying me jpg's: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15707-V-Day-Sale-Love-Is-In-The-Air-and-Space
Quote
This Valentine’s Day, we’ve got love and rockets! What better time to introduce that special someone to the wonders of Star Citizen? To that end, we’ve created a special offer that focuses on ships that let you take on the galaxy together. From the stylish 85x runabout (perfect for a romantic evening watching the traffic at Port Olisar) to the massive Starfarer Gemini tanker (room for the whole family… and then some!), we have multi-crew ships for every occasion — plus special discounts on two-packs!

Not quite ready to commit? We’re also giving you (and your loved ones) the opportunity to try Star Citizen for free! Just click HERE, use the code SHARETHELOVE and you’ll receive access to a multi-crew Constellation Andromeda to test fly through Sunday, February 20th. Ready to bring a friend to Arena Commander, Star Marine, Crusader and beyond? A limited number of discount starter packages are also available below. Sale runs through February 28, 2017 or while supplies last.

Quote
Thinking about getting serious? Nothing says ‘I care’ like the rugged Aegis Vanguard deep space fighter, a favorite among long range mercenary pilots and well-armed explorers alike. With firepower and the ability to get you and your co-pilot out of the most dangerous situations, the twin-boom Vanguard design is a favorite from Earth to the frontier.

By popular request, we are also making available the Battlefield Upgrade Kits (BUKs) for the Vanguard line, which allow captains to swap between variants on a single chassis. Please note that these upgrades are not available in the current alpha build of Star Citizen; their functionality will be added in a future patch.

(https://i.imgur.com/yD3P3Lj.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on February 15, 2017, 05:31:45 am
Coming soon, WOD JPGs. $250 each!

Coming soon, WOD Forum Game 2! Entry fee begins at a special introductory price of $1,000. Buy additional fleets and perks at reasonable prices to get a leg up on your opposition!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 15, 2017, 05:52:53 am
(https://i.imgur.com/IsPoowW.png)

Guy ended up not getting banned.

(https://i.imgur.com/maVMGq7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3XEmDKx.jpg)


Discouraging people from buying into SC is a worse crime than molesting children, apparently.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on February 15, 2017, 06:09:16 am
Well, I'd rather they were into Star Citizen than children. Especially if it grows into the all-consuming obsession that Star Citizen seems to be for some people. Though if the game ever got released, they might soon lose their fondness for it, since they might as well be flying around with a huge bullseye painted on their ship if they've made it known they're a pedophile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 15, 2017, 09:03:42 am
"apparent pedophile like related porn" can mean anything from outright child porn photos to those anime drawings with apparently underage characters, or legal porn of the young teen variety. If it was the latter, then a 7 day ban is entirely reasonable. Goon trolls are certainly a worse threat for a forum than anime child porn drawings.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 15, 2017, 09:07:37 am
I agree with you Maslo, but the conversation up there is just ****ing hilarious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on February 15, 2017, 09:21:34 am
I also thought the goons would indeed be the greater threat to that community after thinking about it, because one group is actively out to do damage to that community and one group is not. And also that that could mean anything, and it's not something I'm interested in going to look and see in case it is the awful variety of the kind which someone should be banned for for uploading.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 15, 2017, 09:39:42 am
i'm not saying hitler was a saint but he wasn't a goon, you know?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on February 15, 2017, 10:05:29 am
goons have a rigorous procedure for dealing with pedophiles

1. make them a moderator
2. realize they're a pedophile
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 15, 2017, 10:42:17 am
Goon pedophile nazis are the worst thou.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 15, 2017, 05:36:56 pm
Coming soon, WOD JPGs. $250 each!

Coming soon, WOD Forum Game 2! Entry fee begins at a special introductory price of $1,000. Buy additional fleets and perks at reasonable prices to get a leg up on your opposition!
Obligatory repost:
(http://i.imgur.com/OSgnEpv.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on February 15, 2017, 05:45:50 pm
I forgot about that! :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 15, 2017, 05:58:43 pm
Economics 101: If there are people willing to buy, there will be people willing to sell. Nothing amoral about that, just business. If people want to buy JPGs, gold-plated skins and whatnot, well, it's their money and they know what they're getting.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 16, 2017, 03:30:56 am
That's actually.... what amoral means. You meant immoral.

Thing is, we know how humans function, and thus this is well understood as basic exploitation technique. The Free Market isn't an absolute truth, Dragon. There are things that are sold and bought which are immoral. This is just an example of it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 16, 2017, 04:53:11 am
Thus means "in this way".

You used it wrong.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 16, 2017, 05:57:01 am
Goon trolls are certainly a worse threat for a forum than anime child porn drawings.
You say that, but Something Awful is a much, much, much nicer place than the RSI forums.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 16, 2017, 06:27:57 am
That's actually.... what amoral means. You meant immoral.

Thing is, we know how humans function, and thus this is well understood as basic exploitation technique. The Free Market isn't an absolute truth, Dragon. There are things that are sold and bought which are immoral. This is just an example of it.
Yeah, sorry. These terms are used interchangeably so bloody often that they got me doing it. :) Good catch.

TBH, I don't think it's immoral. If you classify selling fancy pictures as wrong, what about paper greeting cards, posters, merchandise, autographs and other stuff like that? Is it also immoral to print out a fancy picture (since that's what many posters are these days) and sell it for many times the price of ink and paper it took to create it?

Sure, there are things bought and sold that are immoral, but for most part, these are things that shouldn't even exist. SC merchandise isn't one of these things (unless, of course, you're a die-hard hater). Sure, it's exploitation, but if someone essentially agrees to be exploited, is it really wrong? Nobody is forcing them to buy those things, the way out is wide open and there is no physical addiction. Someone dumb or obsessed enough to pay for them deserves everything he gets. Assuming these things are created by paid employees, the choice is to have them available for money or not make them at all. Since people want these things and want more of them (to the point they're willing to pay), why not go with the latter option?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 16, 2017, 06:41:17 am
Exploitation is deeply immoral, except for BDSM-type of exploits, you know, fetiches.

It is not illegal. But everyone should feel bad for doing it. They should not sleep well.

The reason why your demand and supply argument is wrong is that you take it dogmatically to be right, or at least not immoral. It's the current overwhelming ideology, wherein anything that the market does, it's not immoral, because there's supply and demand between human agents. Except this is not true. Con artists do this all the time, providing "services" like mind reading and other supernatural shenanigans for a lot of money. It matters not if they are lying according to this market logic (how can you even know that without telepathy), it matters merely that there is a kind of a service provided and that there are always people giving these guys money for it. So it's not immoral, right?

No, there is such a thing as taking advantage of people's good will, and then there's taking advantage on the order of magnitude that Star Citizen has deployed, which is staggering.

The only way such a logic could prevail would be if we defined human beings as being perfectly rational at all times, careless amoral nihilistic beings who only care for market signals and so on. Perhaps that's your personal goal and I'm even inclined to believe in this, but it isn't mine and I can assure you it's not where the overwhelming majority's aspirations go.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 16, 2017, 07:17:42 am
So you classify all fortune tellers, supposed psychics and the like as con artists? I don't think it's right, though I can see why you could think so. I believe that whether this sort of thing is moral or not depends on intentions behind it. Someone who sells prophecies knowing that they're just making it up is definitely immoral. On the other hand, someone who genuinely believes that these prophecies will come true aren't doing anything immoral, strictly speaking (though he may be deluded, but that's another thing). Lying doesn't matter for the market (indeed, pretty lies are in very high demand), but it makes a world of difference when it comes to morality. It also doesn't matter whether anyone but the deceiver in question knows about the deception.

I don't see SC as taking advantage of anyone's goodwill at this point. They're selling these things to make money, that much should be obvious by this point. Moreover, they don't deceive customers (what con men you mentioned do). You get exactly what you paid for. If you're dumb enough to pay for a picture, well, you've got a picture. Protecting good people from deception is fine, but protecting idiots from their own idiocy is not.

Of course, that's about selling cards, not the rest of their development strategy. Though here, I think their situation is similar to that fairground fortune teller example. They're the firmest believers of the humbug they peddle. Call them stupid if you will, but this is not really immoral.

Also, I hope you noticed what your argument does with any and all religions. This is not a criticism, but rather an interesting observation on how all the above matters relate to the problem of religious belief. SC has, for many people, pretty much become a religion (it's not alone in this, but a rather notorious example). Just what is the difference between believing Chris Roberts will make his game and that Jesus Christ can keep you from coming to harm? At least the former is alive and still working on it. :) Of course, if you're against religion, you're killing two birds with one stone.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 16, 2017, 07:36:10 am
I don't see SC as taking advantage of anyone's goodwill at this point. They're selling these things to make money, that much should be obvious by this point. Moreover, they don't deceive customers (what con men you mentioned do). You get exactly what you paid for. If you're dumb enough to pay for a picture, well, you've got a picture. Protecting good people from deception is fine, but protecting idiots from their own idiocy is not.

No, you don't. At this point, and I can't believe you haven't noticed it yet, they're selling a promise of future gameplay. Not actual gameplay, not even a concrete vision of what the gameplay will be, just a promise that at some point, mining really will be fun (to pick a random example).

They have also so far failed to meet their own expectations. They've made not a single shipping date, and what gameplay they have delivered has been unbalanced, bug-ridden and above all, very pedestrian in nature.

"Roberts et al are taking advantage of people's generosity" is the nice way to put it. What is actually happening is that they're taking advantage of people's gullibility. Just because people let themselves be charmed into throwing money at this project doesn't mean that what CIG is doing is morally right.

Quote
Of course, that's about selling cards, not the rest of their development strategy. Though here, I think their situation is similar to that fairground fortune teller example. They're the firmest believers of the humbug they peddle. Call them stupid if you will, but this is not really immoral.

Predatory marketing strategies are bad, no matter why you pursue them. Selling people their own dreams is never a moral or ethical choice for a business to make, no matter how deeply convinced people are that what they're doing is right.

Quote
Also, I hope you noticed what your argument does with any and all religions. This is not a criticism, but rather an interesting observation on how all the above matters relate to the problem of religious belief. SC has, for many people, pretty much become a religion (it's not alone in this, but a rather notorious example). Just what is the difference between believing Chris Roberts will make his game and that Jesus Christ can keep you from coming to harm? At least the former is alive and still working on it. :) Of course, if you're against religion, you're killing two birds with one stone.

The main difference is that you do not need to pay an entrance fee to join a religion (well, most of them, anyway), and seeing how most religions actually promote things that are altruistic and benefitial to their communities, it's hard to find fault with those who do give their money or time to those religions.
It's quite a bit different when we're talking about a strictly commercial venture like this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 16, 2017, 08:46:46 am
[...]seeing how most religions actually promote things that are altruistic and benefitial to their communities
So, hating gays, denying evolution, disparaging women, opposing abortion and promoting intolerance are good and altruistic? Come over the border, listen to our priests and you'll see that. Organized religions are selling a promise even more vague and illusory than Roberts, demanding money, time and public endorsement in return. If they were treated like regular businesses, many of their strategies would be on low end of the ethics scale. They do preach some useful things and run charities (though many "fat cats" have a foundation of their own, too), but that are about the only redeeming qualities.

If you got rid of all the charlatans in Catholicism, you'd be left with the monks, a handful of mid and low level clergymen and the current Pope. Most of these charlatans do believe in what they preach, but that doesn't stop them from being greedy bastards (yay for hypocrisy!). These days, religion is peddled like any other product. This applies more to "new age" religions than the old ones (which at least pretend they aren't), but applies nonetheless.
Predatory marketing strategies are bad, no matter why you pursue them. Selling people their own dreams is never a moral or ethical choice for a business to make, no matter how deeply convinced people are that what they're doing is right.
They're not selling people their own dreams, they're selling them Roberts' dream. That people appear to have been dreaming about the same thing as him is a factor in their success, but Roberts wanted this as far back as the time he made Freelancer. He himself believes that this dream is possible to achieve. Whether this is true is not certain (and I don't think so), but the important thing is that Roberts didn't start this with the expectation that the project will peter out and he'll be able to run off with the money. He could've easily done it long ago instead of sinking that money back into this juggernaut, if that was the case. You may question his judgement, but not his intentions.

Also, any scheme in which you pre-purchase something is a gamble. If you pre-purchase the latest CoD, you also buy a promise of a working game with gameplay you'll actually like. Granted, in their case odds are much better, but the principle is the same. Roberts is promising that various things will be "fun", but that's a rather vague thing which means different things for different people. Indeed, a quite likely end result for SC is a game that technically does most things it promised, but just isn't terribly fun to play. Maybe there are people out there who like the buggy mess SC (just check out Kerbal Space Program. Hang out long enough on the forum and you'll run into someone who complains about straight bugfixes because he learned how to exploit a particular bug).
"Roberts et al are taking advantage of people's generosity" is the nice way to put it. What is actually happening is that they're taking advantage of people's gullibility. Just because people let themselves be charmed into throwing money at this project doesn't mean that what CIG is doing is morally right.
TBH, I think much more of generous people than gullible ones. A generous person might give them money against his better judgement because he likes making people happy. A gullible person would give them money because he has no better judgement. Take a guess which one is more likely to be intelligent.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 16, 2017, 08:50:24 am
I'm confused I thought this was the Star Citizen thread
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Unknown Target on February 16, 2017, 08:53:16 am
Back on topic please. GD is a good place to discuss religion. Not here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 16, 2017, 09:48:11 am
****ing hell guys, stop stinking the thread up, what is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 16, 2017, 09:53:19 am
And with that I mean, don't engage Dragon in bad posts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 16, 2017, 09:56:26 am
I for one would pay handsomely for dawn jpegs. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 16, 2017, 09:58:44 am
(https://i.imgur.com/P4h91Qj.jpg)

I for one would pay handsomely for dawn jpegs. 
Maybe I should exploit this business opportunity...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 16, 2017, 11:02:58 am
To get back on topic.

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on February 16, 2017, 12:24:30 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/P4h91Qj.jpg)

Did he die of a crushed pelvis?

(http://i.imgur.com/OT9Jj.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 16, 2017, 12:59:18 pm
Did he die of a crushed pelvis?

If the space Winnebago is a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on February 16, 2017, 07:39:01 pm
Did he die of a crushed pelvis?
One of those rare moments when I wish to God we had a like/kudos system.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 16, 2017, 07:58:36 pm
Maybe I should exploit this business opportunity...

LEWDS NAO

WILL PAY FIVE MILLION FUN BUCKS
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 17, 2017, 09:52:08 am
More business opportunities  ;7
(what can one buy with 5 million fun bucks?)


So some more leaks from the SA poster called theagent: http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=26.msg1078#msg1078
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 17, 2017, 10:11:41 am
that list of "only this will happen" is incredibly optimistic. None of that **** will work remotely well.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 17, 2017, 10:15:24 am
And yesterday, FDEV did a stream showing off the upcoming multicrew feature. Looked pretty good and seamless. Funny how they managed to make the whole process seem like a fun thing one would want to do without having to resort to scripting a couple people to spout tacticool dialogue.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 17, 2017, 11:44:16 am
ED is basically trolling Star Citizen by being competent.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 17, 2017, 12:33:13 pm
Star Citizen is trolling everyone by demonstrating that you don't need to produce a working product to make lotsa money.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 17, 2017, 03:29:02 pm
meanwhile, Frontier Developments' employers and employees are actually enjoying good nights' sleep.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 22, 2017, 01:25:23 pm
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit
I am amazed reading how negative the citizens have become. It's almost like they are starting to see the light.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 22, 2017, 01:43:50 pm
The cracks in Croberts psi-emitter are starting to show.

This pleases me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 23, 2017, 08:05:27 am
I think it's funny that every now and then someone posts the equivalent of "Keep pushing guys, I have a feeling the top is right ahead, just keep going!"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on February 23, 2017, 08:36:54 am
I'm sure that's very immature, but I enjoy all those people using "chit" as a replacement of an another four letter word.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 23, 2017, 10:32:33 am
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit
I am amazed reading how negative the citizens have become. It's almost like they are starting to see the light.

Wow ... things sure have changed in Citizen Land.

If that community goes into critical meltdown eventually, ... it's gonna cause the first internet singularity, or something. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 23, 2017, 12:14:18 pm
a fresh instalment in the annals of Wikipedia's Lamest Edit Wars, starring the mysterious Phantom Hoover, hits the front page of /r/starcitizen (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vpvls/star_citizen_disappeared_from/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mammothtank on February 24, 2017, 05:56:14 am
"Whoever this Phantom Hoover is..."  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on February 24, 2017, 08:23:37 am
First ED and now this. You're a menace, Hoover :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 24, 2017, 09:44:27 am
It's good to know they're still moving those goalposts.

"No, we didn't spend the entire $150 million on the game. That's stupid. We blew a ton on hookers and blow and new cars and stuff."

or

"Sorry our game isn't done yet, we didn't spend all the money you gave us on fixing it, we spent it on pretty ads to get more money."

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 24, 2017, 10:18:41 am
https://www.playhellion.com/

Hellion early access is launching in about an hour. Hellion is a space sim multiplayer game played from first person perspective, with elements of simulationism, and all that in AAA quality. It is the only other game I am aware of that aims to scratch that Star Citizen itch. SC may finally get some much needed competition..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 24, 2017, 10:37:02 am
https://www.playhellion.com/

Hellion early access is launching in about an hour. Hellion is a space sim multiplayer game played from first person perspective, with elements of simulationism, and all that in AAA quality. It is the only other game I am aware of that aims to scratch that Star Citizen itch. SC may finally get some much needed competition..
SC still doesn't have competition.  Hellion is a completely different type of product.  Like Elite Dangerous, it's an actual game.  Star Citizen is not.

Hellion and ED are production cars doing laps on a track.  SC is an 8 year old saying he's drawing the bestest car ever. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 24, 2017, 10:46:11 am
Hellion early access is launching in about an hour. Hellion is a space sim multiplayer game played from first person perspective, with elements of simulationism, and all that in AAA quality. It is the only other game I am aware of that aims to scratch that Star Citizen itch. SC may finally get some much needed competition..

Have you heard of Elite Dangerous? It's pretty great.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 24, 2017, 10:48:16 am
Elite Dangerous doesn't count for maslo because acknowledging it would require him to confront the fact that it's closer to what SC wanted to be than SC itself is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 24, 2017, 10:50:58 am
Have you heard of Elite Dangerous? It's pretty great.

Its pretty good but you cant leave your seat so it is a game with quite different scope compared to SC or Hellion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 24, 2017, 11:14:26 am
Have you heard of Elite Dangerous? It's pretty great.

Its pretty good but you cant leave your seat so it is a game with quite different scope compared to SC or Hellion.
[12:11.49] <Caiaphas> walking around is the most important feature in any game about spaceships
[12:12.52] <Caiaphas> how can i possibly enjoy a spaceship game in space if i can't go take a **** in my ship's toilet?

It's also the only thing SC has that ED doesn't.  And spacelegs is something Frontier is working on (and unlike CIG, they've been pretty good about delivering that sort of content regularly).  What happens when it's added and ED has everything SC has + a whole actual game?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 24, 2017, 11:24:59 am
Its pretty good but you cant leave your seat so it is a game with quite different scope compared to SC or Hellion.
[12:11.49] <Caiaphas> walking around is the most important feature in any game about spaceships
[12:12.52] <Caiaphas> how can i possibly enjoy a spaceship game in space if i can't go take a **** in my ship's toilet?

It's also the only thing SC has that ED doesn't.  And spacelegs is something Frontier is working on (and unlike CIG, they've been pretty good about delivering that sort of content regularly).  What happens when it's added and ED has everything SC has + a whole actual game?

its important for muh immersion, like it or not it is a MAJOR selling point of SC (and Hellion).

I hope ED adds it too but hopefully it wont end up like their implementation of procedural planets, with very little gameplay depth and little stuff to do

which is actually a problem with Elite Dangerous in general

Elite is not a bad game at all but it is not some kind of a shining gem either

Actually this whole space sim renaissance has yet to deliver a game that could be considered above average. Even when it comes to Hellion alpha, as much as I love the concept, I expect it to suffer from serious lack of content.

I remain positive though, between SC working on 3.0, ED slowly but surely moving towards space legs, and now Hellion, we may yet get something actually good to play in time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 24, 2017, 11:37:59 am
I hope ED adds it too but hopefully it wont end up like their implementation of procedural planets, with very little gameplay depth and little stuff to do

You keep saying that as if SC isn't going to have this exact issue as well.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 24, 2017, 11:39:31 am
Elite is not a bad game at all but it is not some kind of a shining gem either

The point being raised is that Star Citizen still isn't a game.  All that's been delivered under the Star Citizen brand is a tech demo for CryEngine (or Lumberjack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgaRd4d8hOY) or whatever they're calling it these days) that's all full of bugs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 24, 2017, 11:43:14 am
I really would like a game about walking around your spaceship, but that game looks fundamentally different from E:D or SC and probably doesn't have a big emphasis on space dogfighting. Turns out games can only do so many things at once before the mechanics start to clash and make each other less fun!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 24, 2017, 12:43:29 pm
Mace Griffin did it all years ago.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 24, 2017, 03:46:25 pm
Have you heard of Elite Dangerous? It's pretty great.

Its pretty good but you cant leave your seat so it is a game with quite different scope compared to SC or Hellion.

So?
I want to fly spaceships, not play an ordinary fps.

Tie Fighter didn't have space legs and it's still one of the best spacesims EVER.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 24, 2017, 04:09:33 pm
Admiral Petrarch still hasn't found out that I was the one pissing on the door to his quarters.  That's what you get, if you put me on the early morning CAP.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 24, 2017, 09:07:03 pm
I heard that Elite:Dangerous is actually pretty grindy. I hate grinding, it was exactly the reason I never got into the X series. Not to mention it's multiplayer-only. Much like Hellion, actually. My main issue with multiplayer games is that they always seem to involve at least some grinding before they start being fun. A properly designed SP game is fun from start to finish.

I don't want epic scale multiplayer with trading, shooting and walking around stations. I want the next Wing Commander. Besides SC, there isn't much coming on that front (I'd settle for the next TIE fighter, but they're not making anything like that, either). If Roberts scrapped the entire multiplayer component and only made Squadron 42, I'd actually applaud him. Star Marine optional (he's never gonna top ArmA on the FPS front, anyway), Bengal carrier definitely not.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 25, 2017, 03:49:33 am
It is pretty grindy.  Engineers is a very poorly designed mechanic.  I love the game, but I'll never pretend it's perfect.  What it does have is a good base onto which content can be (and is being) added.  The combat in particular is incredibly fun.

Star Citizen doesn't even have that.  None of its mechanics are fun, and none are developed enough for content to be added onto them.  As much as "it isn't a game" sounds like it's just making fun, it's true.  Their entire design process is ****ed because preparing for the next jpeg sale is more important than getting the core mechanics ironed out, because base game mechanics aren't something you can sell for 200$.  Star Citizen is a screenshot generator.

I don't know how much of this is malice and how much is incompetence.  CR has made this much money because he's selling a dream, not a game.  The dream makes more money that the game ever could.  The more the game becomes real, the less citizens are able to project their perfect dream onto it.  As long as it's formless enough that backers can rationalise away the discrepancy between their dream and what they're getting with "it's an alpha", backers will continue to believe it'll be perfect. 

You can see this in this thread, even.  Maslo calls out Elite for having no content as though he knows Star Citizen won't be 'a mile wide but an inch deep', despite the fact that SC has exactly the same problems to solve as Elite content-wise, but with a demonstrably less competent developer.  Because he's judging SC as a dream, and Elite as a game.  He's just too deluded to see the double standard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 25, 2017, 04:50:39 am
I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 25, 2017, 06:32:52 am
maslo, we've had this conversation before, but have you ever actually seen an aeroplane fly? Because I have, and they spend much less time moving backwards than E:D ships in a dogfight.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 25, 2017, 09:45:43 am
I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all.
As someone who play realistic WW2 flight sims (which have flight models that are far, far more complex than either ED or SC), no, ED does not have an airplane flight model.  Not even close.  This isn't opinion.  Airplanes can't even physically maneuver the way ED ships do in routine combat.

Though it amuses me that you decry airplane flight models so much, since CR has himself stated on numerous occasions that the main inspiration for fighter combat in his games was meant to be Star Wars, which is directly modeled on airplane dogfights.  SC fails miserably at being anything like that, but I don't think CR even knows what he wants to achieve with dogfights, which is why SC combat is such a giant cluster****.

Quote
Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.
Not only is it more polished, it's got far more content and is closer to the SC dream than SC is.  Hell, ED, the game originally designed to be 'playing a spaceship', is going to have character customisation before the game pitched as 'playing a pilot'.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 25, 2017, 10:28:35 am
https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on February 25, 2017, 10:48:56 am
I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 25, 2017, 11:20:37 am
I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

If it wasn't for all the dampness interfering with my wi-fi this video would make me do a few rounds in CQC, last time I played there were quite a few "star wars" moments with me blazing through tunnels either chasing or being chased by other players.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 25, 2017, 11:22:01 am
https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne

In a recent email to backers, Star Citizen's lead Designer Chris Roberts had unexpected news: "Yeah, we got together with a few EA guys, and we decided that what Star Citizen really should be, at this point, is a Dead Space sequel. Makes sense, if you think about it."
The Star Citizen community is reportedly excited about these news. Commenters on reddit's Star Citizen subreddit have started an impromptu celebration consisting of sending money orders to CIG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 25, 2017, 11:41:05 am
The crazy thing is that given the current state of /r/starcitizen there'd be a good chance of actual criticism getting posted.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 25, 2017, 11:52:51 am
https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne

You know what?  Those eyes are stable.

Also....

I am judging both of those games equally.

Best line of the thread.  Top keks.  That vaporware is totally comparable to this released product.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 25, 2017, 05:05:51 pm
Well, you can compare flight physics already. I can see why some people can have preference for one style or the other. Though calling Elite's flight model "airplane" is a bit nonspecific, since almost all spacesims follow the "airplanes in space" paradigm to some degree (they're not remotely close to actual airplanes, but since Diaspora was described like that, it doesn't seem to matter much). "Realistic" newtonian flight model is so different from the usual experience that games using it are few and far between (I-War 1 and 2, Evochron Mercenary and B5: I've Found Her are the only examples I can think of).

I don't know how much of this is malice and how much is incompetence.
One look will tell you that it's incompetence all the way through. I see Star Citizen as an awesome game being developed by a team which is not up to the task of making games. I could see a large studio like Bohemia Interactive pulling something like that off (they have lots of experience with both multiplayer and large-scale worlds, though they don't make MMOs) or Egosoft, but not Roberts' motley crew. Even at the start I was concerned that they promised a much better game than they're capable of actually making. With that kind of money you can do everything... just remember that there are far more ways to fail than to succeed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 25, 2017, 05:09:21 pm
or Egosoft
Egosoft have been trying and failing to make this game for decades, so I don't know why you'd trust them to get it right.

And I say that as a fan of the X series.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 25, 2017, 05:17:18 pm
They'd still be more likely to get it right than CIG. :) After all, they've been trying for a decade, and the games that came out of it were pretty fun (though too slow paced for my liking). It's not like there's anyone else with a lot of experience in this kind of games. Perhaps with a "continuous development" style model an an extended early access phase (and actually listening to the player feedback), they'd eventually be able to make something approaching Roberts' vision.

Then again, my only contact with X:Rebirth was a few times I've seen my father playing it, so my opinion of them is mostly based on X3:TC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 26, 2017, 02:26:15 am
They'd still be more likely to get it right than CIG. :) After all, they've been trying for a decade, and the games that came out of it were pretty fun (though too slow paced for my liking). It's not like there's anyone else with a lot of experience in this kind of games. Perhaps with a "continuous development" style model an an extended early access phase (and actually listening to the player feedback), they'd eventually be able to make something approaching Roberts' vision.

Then again, my only contact with X:Rebirth was a few times I've seen my father playing it, so my opinion of them is mostly based on X3:TC.

Egosoft has the right general idea, but they convinced me thoroughly that they lack the skills to make any kind of game that would actually excel in it's "gameplay".

There's little doubt that the next game won't again be a hodge podge of interesting systems that all don't really work all that well by themselves and don't mesh well either.

It's sad sort of ... but just how it is. Egosoft would need a complete change in development direction and possible a huge influx of talent to turn things around and none of that is happening ... instead they keep making pretty much "more of the same" with prettier graphics. Occasionally further showcasing their utter lack of ignorance by not even understanding the few things that actually are fun in their games (like X2/X3) by cutting most of them out in a sequel. (Rebirth.)

So no, if Egosoft is our last hope now then I'll rather say goodbye to spacesims again and play something else. Or rather, I'll play FSO and it's new campaigns again which still makes for a better Spacesim than anything commcercially released in the decade. - And frankly ... I don't expect that to change when SC is released either ... Roberts stands for ultra flashy graphics and yes, cinematic, but always pretty shallow story.

From the impression the writing snips on their page make:
Best case SQ42 will come with ultra flashy graphics, ok gameplay and meh story. Worst case ... well you know. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 26, 2017, 07:25:07 pm
I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. :) Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on February 26, 2017, 09:57:42 pm

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

Hah! That's my vid! :D

I think an important fact that both Elite and SC (and presumable Hellion or whatever else) need to confront is that the mechanics it takes to make an interesting first-person game set on a spaceship (where you can move around, EVA, etc) are wildly different from what it takes to make an interesting spaceship combat game. Especially if you're trying to do so in an open-world / multiplayer environment... if you're doing single-player, you can basically have two games at once with carefully controlled interactions between them.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 26, 2017, 10:20:56 pm
I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. :) Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

For what I know at least 2 had very few contrbutions from him, in fact in 3 he decided to dump in some of the most interesting parts of that story.

IV too had less contributions from him I hear.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on February 27, 2017, 03:31:52 am
I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. :) Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

For what I know at least 2 had very few contrbutions from him, in fact in 3 he decided to dump in some of the most interesting parts of that story.

IV too had less contributions from him I hear.

!!!Spoilers ahead, you have been warned!!!



Wing Commander 1 is an assortment of caricatures of people. If you look back at the dialogue, half the characters are a bunch of national stereotypes blended into a person. If tumblr could see them, the controversy would surely be enough to revive the old game for a while.
2 is better, they've gotten writers on board who managed to make some compelling personal stories. Can't recall who exactly, but His Loafiness once said this is a woman's touch at work. 2 is where Wing Commander got a trend towards humanizing friend and foe alike, away from Black vs. White. This is where we are introduced* to some blurred fronts (i.e. alien defectors, human traitors), a deicison Chris Roberts did not agree with.
The main reason the betrayal scene exists in 3 is because Chris Roberts wanted it to be there. He did not want you to buddy-buddy with an alien, so he shoehorned in the sleeper agent angle.
The novel writers largely support the black-and-white angle. Forstchen leans conservative, to a degree that he sincerely thinks Tolwyn is a sympathetic character, even when he want off the rocker in the WCIV story, the one that can be summed up as "Luke Skywalker vs. the Space Nazi Cabal".

*A few Kilrathi defectors existed in Wing Commander 1 brought to you by the hardest Kurosawa mission in the game, but their role is marginal compared to the Wing Commander 2 story, where one expansion pack revolves entirely around the human traitors. In the black-and-white view, the only good alien is either dead or thorouhgly subjugated, the way it is in IV and the Prophecy story.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 27, 2017, 09:30:19 am
So no, if Egosoft is our last hope now then I'll rather say goodbye to spacesims again and play something else. Or rather, I'll play FSO and it's new campaigns again which still makes for a better Spacesim than anything commcercially released in the decade. - And frankly ... I don't expect that to change when SC is released either ... Roberts stands for ultra flashy graphics and yes, cinematic, but always pretty shallow story.

QFT. I'd like to get into E:D, but the grindiness puts me off. I find myself going back to Diaspora every now and then for want of anything that's anywhere near as fun.

In all honesty I find Freespace' story far more compelling than WC or anything similar and that series almost completely lacks for named characters. I tried to play WC back in 2004 but I found it to be a bit cheesy and dated. I've played more WC:Saga than WC itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 27, 2017, 09:47:51 am
I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. :) Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

For what I know at least 2 had very few contrbutions from him, in fact in 3 he decided to dump in some of the most interesting parts of that story.

IV too had less contributions from him I hear.

!!!Spoilers ahead, you have been warned!!!



Wing Commander 1 is an assortment of caricatures of people. If you look back at the dialogue, half the characters are a bunch of national stereotypes blended into a person. If tumblr could see them, the controversy would surely be enough to revive the old game for a while.
2 is better, they've gotten writers on board who managed to make some compelling personal stories. Can't recall who exactly, but His Loafiness once said this is a woman's touch at work. 2 is where Wing Commander got a trend towards humanizing friend and foe alike, away from Black vs. White. This is where we are introduced* to some blurred fronts (i.e. alien defectors, human traitors), a deicison Chris Roberts did not agree with.
The main reason the betrayal scene exists in 3 is because Chris Roberts wanted it to be there. He did not want you to buddy-buddy with an alien, so he shoehorned in the sleeper agent angle.
The novel writers largely support the black-and-white angle. Forstchen leans conservative, to a degree that he sincerely thinks Tolwyn is a sympathetic character, even when he want off the rocker in the WCIV story, the one that can be summed up as "Luke Skywalker vs. the Space Nazi Cabal".

*A few Kilrathi defectors existed in Wing Commander 1 brought to you by the hardest Kurosawa mission in the game, but their role is marginal compared to the Wing Commander 2 story, where one expansion pack revolves entirely around the human traitors. In the black-and-white view, the only good alien is either dead or thorouhgly subjugated, the way it is in IV and the Prophecy story.

I didn't know about the novel writers.

I remember about the Kilrathi defectors, in fact the twist in 3 was really jarring.

In general the black and white-ness of the thing is even more offputting after Wing Commander Saga, there at least some people have doubts about blowing up an entire planet killing billions of innocents, in the original WC3 no Kilrathi is even contemplated to be innocent or even a mere civilian.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 27, 2017, 10:20:23 am
This is what happens when a man with a magpie's appreciation of other people's work and the literary wit of a turkey gets to play at being a film director. I actually really hope SQ42 gets released so we can boggle at the trainwreck that is its story.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on February 27, 2017, 10:29:14 am
In general the black and white-ness of the thing is even more offputting after Wing Commander Saga, there at least some people have doubts about blowing up an entire planet killing billions of innocents, in the original WC3 no Kilrathi is even contemplated to be innocent or even a mere civilian.

Since the PC version never included the "sleeper agent" scene, this is my headcanon for Hobbes' turning in WC3. It makes sense and is somewhat in character.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 27, 2017, 11:44:41 am
I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

Like what, rolling into almost every turn? That is how an aeroplane flies indeed. no bueno

I find myself going back to Diaspora every now and then for want of anything that's anywhere near as fun.

Seconded. Diaspora flight model is an example of how to do it right, its the most fun I had in a space shooter. Yet Id say it resembles SC more than ED, with yaw being a viable strategy and no need to keep inside certain speed range to turn fast.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on February 27, 2017, 11:55:10 am
I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

Like what, rolling into almost every turn? That is how an aeroplane flies indeed. no bueno

"Banking into a turn" isn't a defining characteristic of air flight, try again.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 27, 2017, 12:01:24 pm
I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580
Like what, rolling into almost every turn? That is how an aeroplane flies indeed. no bueno

That is, uh, literally not how aeroplanes fly. You don't roll into turns. You roll TO turn.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 27, 2017, 12:43:14 pm
maslo exists in a world where the sole defining property of aeroplanes is that they're ****ty at yawing

i'm not even sure he has any interest in space sims, it seems like he just wants a yaw sim
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 27, 2017, 01:07:48 pm
In general the black and white-ness of the thing is even more offputting after Wing Commander Saga, there at least some people have doubts about blowing up an entire planet killing billions of innocents, in the original WC3 no Kilrathi is even contemplated to be innocent or even a mere civilian.

Since the PC version never included the "sleeper agent" scene, this is my headcanon for Hobbes' turning in WC3. It makes sense and is somewhat in character.

Unfortunately even without that it's made clear he was a sleeper agent of sort.

But most of all in the first two games there were federation worlds inhabited by Kilrathi, suddenly they disappear by the time the game goes FMV.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 27, 2017, 01:36:04 pm
maslo exists in a world where the sole defining property of aeroplanes is that they're ****ty at yawing

i'm not even sure he has any interest in space sims, it seems like he just wants a yaw sim

The picture is starting to come together now.  Maslo wants to make use of an expensive set of rudder pedals that have been gathering dust since 1996.

He's probably hoping that WADS will be foregone (and who would put it past CIG at this point?) in favor of being able to independently map left and right leg movement to the pedals.  Then, Maslo will rocket into the top competitive tier of QWOP Star Citizen players.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 27, 2017, 05:23:06 pm
I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

Like what, rolling into almost every turn? That is how an aeroplane flies indeed. no bueno
You've never played a real flight sim, have you?  Or know even the basics of WW2 air combat maneuvers.  The maneuvers in that vid would be impossible to achieve even with a modern fighter.

Quote
Seconded. Diaspora flight model is an example of how to do it right, its the most fun I had in a space shooter. Yet Id say it resembles SC more than ED, with yaw being a viable strategy and no need to keep inside certain speed range to turn fast.
You do SC no favors by bringing up Diaspora.  SC's fighter combat gameplay is ****tier in every way despite literally having a million times the budget.  At least both Diaspora and ED are fun.  SC isn't.


I'm going to say it again because it amuses me: IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad started development in 2011, entered beta in 2013, released in 2014 and had a much smaller budget than SC, yet had to construct vastly more complicated combat environments and flight models.  They did it in less time than it took CIG to make Arena Commander.

Clearly defined direction and intentions beat $140M and 'dreams' every time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 27, 2017, 06:06:35 pm
And despite being buggy as hell, Il-2 Battle of Stalingrad is still less buggy than the current state of SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 28, 2017, 12:54:20 am
Quote
Seconded. Diaspora flight model is an example of how to do it right, its the most fun I had in a space shooter. Yet Id say it resembles SC more than ED, with yaw being a viable strategy and no need to keep inside certain speed range to turn fast.
You do SC no favors by bringing up Diaspora.  SC's fighter combat gameplay is ****tier in every way despite literally having a million times the budget. 
Wait. Disapora had a ~$140 budget? Nice!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 28, 2017, 03:24:22 am
Wait. Disapora had a ~$140 budget? Nice!

So much profit.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on February 28, 2017, 03:25:46 am
I wish we had a $140 dollar budget. I could have taken the team out to McDonalds or something. :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 28, 2017, 03:29:49 am
So it's February 28 and Star Citizen is going precisely in the direction that we have predicted three years ago.

Let's start predicting when exactly the **** will hit the fan and the house of cards suddenly crashes, because all else seems just like going through the motions: it's just too easy.

I say the cracks will start spreading like wildfire throughout this year and, before the year's end, major chaos will ensue, games sites will make major hit pieces on it calling it a "failed project", Chris Robert will sperg like crazy and maintain that the "dream" goes on. 2018 will be the year when a big fallout within the consumer community brings the project to a halt, with many backers dropping out in a big way.

That's my call, to which I have 10% confidence on the timings. What say you?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on February 28, 2017, 03:48:08 am
My prediction - Gamescom 2017 will show improved version of last year's video (perhaps a large-ish ship under fire, some fancy particle effects, explosive decompression), which will give CIG another boost in funding, though perhaps not as major as in 2016.
There will be some footage from SQ42, perhaps a gameplay demo of one mission. SQ42 release will be announced, and with said demo it should be a bit more believable than past promises.
3.0 will be released at the end of this year, though with a vastly reduced scope, but despite that backer confidence will be restored. MVP with 15% of all announced features due in 2020.

TL;DR - (Backers') hope springs eternal.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on February 28, 2017, 10:39:29 am
"Banking into a turn" isn't a defining characteristic of air flight, try again.

Not sure if trolling..  :wtf:

read this, you may yet learn something today. Dont worry, it doesnt hurt.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/turns.html

Elite has a flight model with important elements that are intentionally modeled after atmospheric aeroplane simulators. It may still be fun, and plane simulator gamer demographics is a lot larger than newtonian spacesim demographic, so there is some logic behind this decision. Its just not my cup of tea.

That is, uh, literally not how aeroplanes fly. You don't roll into turns. You roll TO turn.

Thats just semantics tho. In space you dont roll into turns, dont roll to turn, dont roll at turns, dont roll for turnz, and last but not least, dont roll in turns. In space, six degrees of freedom are at last truly free
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on February 28, 2017, 11:35:51 am
This feels an appropriate place as any:

The Movie Boys have taken a swing at another Chris Roberts boondoggle (https://soundcloud.com/jimquisition/the-spin-off-doctors-wing-commander).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 28, 2017, 11:56:07 am
"Banking into a turn" isn't a defining characteristic of air flight, try again.

Not sure if trolling..  :wtf:

read this, you may yet learn something today. Dont worry, it doesnt hurt.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/turns.html

Elite has a flight model with important elements that are intentionally modeled after atmospheric aeroplane simulators. It may still be fun, and plane simulator gamer demographics is a lot larger than newtonian spacesim demographic, so there is some logic behind this decision. Its just not my cup of tea.

That is, uh, literally not how aeroplanes fly. You don't roll into turns. You roll TO turn.

Thats just semantics tho. In space you dont roll into turns, dont roll to turn, dont roll at turns, dont roll for turnz, and last but not least, dont roll in turns. In space, six degrees of freedom are at last truly free

i like how you've ignored two thirds of the posts calling out your bull**** to nitpick at the couple that you can actually reply to
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on February 28, 2017, 12:10:22 pm
That is, uh, literally not how aeroplanes fly. You don't roll into turns. You roll TO turn.

Thats just semantics tho. In space you dont roll into turns, dont roll to turn, dont roll at turns, dont roll for turnz, and last but not least, dont roll in turns. In space, six degrees of freedom are at last truly free

Uh... No, it's not. "Rolling into turns" suggests a moron of a pilot stomping on the rudder before rolling to turn. Hello, airframe damage. You use yaw to maintain altitude in a turn and make fine adjustments. But no, that's just semantics because someone pointed out you're wrong and you need to deflect that accusation. Not because you made a reference incorrectly or anything.

And to be perfectly frank, atmospheric controls are a great way to balance out gameplay, especially in a game designed with actual flight physics. Imagine a yaw speed the same as pitch. That would be hilariously overpowered, wouldn't you think? To be able to bring your weapons to bear in a handful of seconds in any situation? Oh, wait, FreeSpace physics and controls work the best in every game, I forgot...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on February 28, 2017, 01:04:34 pm
This feels an appropriate place as any:

The Movie Boys have taken a swing at another Chris Roberts boondoggle (https://soundcloud.com/jimquisition/the-spin-off-doctors-wing-commander).

Listening to it right now.

It's sad that that spacesims are one of the genres Sterling prefers not to talk about since he never played one, this whole Star Citizen thing might be prime material for a Jimquisition.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on February 28, 2017, 01:34:36 pm
And to be perfectly frank, atmospheric controls are a great way to balance out gameplay, especially in a game designed with actual flight physics. Imagine a yaw speed the same as pitch. That would be hilariously overpowered, wouldn't you think? To be able to bring your weapons to bear in a handful of seconds in any situation? Oh, wait, FreeSpace physics and controls work the best in every game, I forgot...

Having played multiple games with both "yaw == pitch" and "yaw != pitch" styles, I've come to prefer the latter. It tends to force more interesting tradeoffs in how you move.

Best of all is when different ships within the same game have noticeably different yaw/pitch/roll characteristics, requiring different flying styles to use to maximum effect.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on February 28, 2017, 01:41:25 pm
Best of all is when different ships within the same game have noticeably different yaw/pitch/roll characteristics, requiring different flying styles to use to maximum effect.

Wing Commander 5 had that, sort of. The Panther has much better yaw than patch, the Vampire has much better pitch than yaw (as does the Kaze in Wings of Dawn!). You'll find yourself doing much better with those ships if you roll so you take advantage of your good turn axis when maneuvering.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 28, 2017, 07:14:05 pm
Give me a ferret over a broadsword any day. (Or a Loki over a boanegersgsseees (you know the one))....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Dragon on February 28, 2017, 08:11:00 pm
Wing Commander 5 had that, sort of. The Panther has much better yaw than patch, the Vampire has much better pitch than yaw (as does the Kaze in Wings of Dawn!). You'll find yourself doing much better with those ships if you roll so you take advantage of your good turn axis when maneuvering.
Those were gimmicks, but I agree that they made flying those fighters an interesting experience.

TBH, I'm actually fan of WC-type "flight style" (in FS2 and X-wing, it always annoyed me that ships rolled when yawing). We can argue all day about semantics about what constitutes "airplane physics", but ultimately, I think that it's important that turning by pitching and rolling "feels atmospheric", more so than having yaw and pitch rates be equal. Let's face it, nobody is even pretending that the spaceflight in space sims has anything to do with reality, so any talk about airplanes should be taken as figurative. The whole argument on previous page is silly, and that's because those flight models aren't realistic in first place and were never meant to be. Those who bring actual flight simulators (not merely WWII games!) are the silliest of all. If we're talking realism, ArmA3 has more realistic physics than either ED, SC or anything ever made on FSO engine (and those who play that one know its flight model isn't anywhere near sim level, either).

Probably the best idea would be to combine the flight models (sort of like what Starshatter did, but that one also has newtonian spaceflight). Pitch and yaw should be equal in space, while in atmosphere, you need to roll in order to turn. Of course, gimmicks like WCP's Panther and Vampire could also be used. Panther was decidedly weird to fly with that yaw rate, but in space, it can be done just by putting more RCS on the sides or having a single-plane thrust vectoring in yaw.

The only game that does spaceflight in an actually realistic way is Kerbal Space Program. I imagine one could make a fun combat game involving orbital mechanics, but it won't even be in the same neighborhood as anything we know (not to mention complexity-wise, it'd be like Starshatter cubed).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 28, 2017, 10:18:44 pm
TBH, I'm actually fan of WC-type "flight style" (in FS2 and X-wing, it always annoyed me that ships rolled when yawing).
Wait what? Freespace ships definitely do not roll when yawing. Yaw and pitch rates are usually close to eachother and the ship doesn't auto-roll when yawing. You can complete a 360 yaw in the same plane.

I think you haven't played Freespace in way too long.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 28, 2017, 11:12:12 pm
$Banking Constant:
FS2 Open 3.6.10:

    Defines a factor for how much roll is added during a yaw. Set as 1 for full roll and 0 is no roll. Default is 0.5.
    Syntax: Float

Banking constant 0
https://my.mixtape.moe/pxwzao.webm

Banking constant 0.5
https://my.mixtape.moe/jruxlg.webm

Banking constant 1
https://my.mixtape.moe/rjiayv.webm

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 28, 2017, 11:56:06 pm
I mean, that's really slight at the default value, it's more a of a "feel" thing than an actual mechanic you have to account for when flying.
It's not like Rogue Squadron where yawing will tilt your fighter 90 degrees. At 1 it looks like you'd be pulling off barrel rolls with just the yaw axis. It says a lot when someone who played a fair share of freespace never really noticed.

Though I do roll quite a lot manually so I guess it was easier to miss the slight automatic roll?
 
But guess I was wrong about Freespace not using auto-roll, sorry about that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on March 01, 2017, 06:26:22 am
"Banking into a turn" isn't a defining characteristic of air flight, try again.

Not sure if trolling..  :wtf:

read this, you may yet learn something today. Dont worry, it doesnt hurt.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/turns.html

Elite has a flight model with important elements that are intentionally modeled after atmospheric aeroplane simulators. It may still be fun, and plane simulator gamer demographics is a lot larger than newtonian spacesim demographic, so there is some logic behind this decision. Its just not my cup of tea.

What is your link trying to prove? Try to fly backwards in a plane, or sideways, or pitch up until you're flying backwards, then accelerate to fly forward. I repeat, "Banking into a turn" isn't a defining characteristic of air flight, semantics aside it's just one of the maneuvers. I'd say that's defining characteristic of how an aircraft flies is the need for a laminar flow over the wings to generate lift, and for that you have to maintain certain angle off attack. You can't fly sideways, you can't drift and so on.

That is, uh, literally not how aeroplanes fly. You don't roll into turns. You roll TO turn.

Thats just semantics tho. In space you dont roll into turns, dont roll to turn, dont roll at turns, dont roll for turnz, and last but not least, dont roll in turns. In space, six degrees of freedom are at last truly free

And E:D has six degrees of freedom, you don't have to roll to turn if you don't want to.

Edit:
@Dragon: To me, saying that the flight model is atmospheric is an implication that the game doesn't have six degrees of freedom.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on March 01, 2017, 09:32:55 am
I mean, that's really slight at the default value, it's more a of a "feel" thing than an actual mechanic you have to account for when flying.
It's not like Rogue Squadron where yawing will tilt your fighter 90 degrees. At 1 it looks like you'd be pulling off barrel rolls with just the yaw axis. It says a lot when someone who played a fair share of freespace never really noticed.

Though I do roll quite a lot manually so I guess it was easier to miss the slight automatic roll?
 
But guess I was wrong about Freespace not using auto-roll, sorry about that.
I was the same as you there, I was just reminded of there being a banking constant entry on the wiki and was thinking "huh, I don't actually remember there being any auto-rolling in freespace". Because as you said, its mostly a feel thing, and not something you account for when flying at all. A zero value felt really 'off' to me, whereas 0.5 just felt 'right'
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 01, 2017, 09:53:24 am
You could emulate some of the strafing in that E:D video if you used a helicopter rather than a fixed wing aircraft. I've seen two helicopters circle strafe an imaginary point in the air while facing each other, quite impressive to watch. That's the closest example of real life flight that I can think of to compare and it's still wildly dissimilar. Even in a helicopter your throttle won't respond anywhere near as fast and the way you actually fly the thing is really weird and sometimes counterintuitive.

Ultimately it's not particularly important about how your starfighter flies so long as it's actually fun to fly. I've never once jumped into Arena Commander without bemoaning the controls, interface, fps, etc.

EDIT: Spelling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on March 01, 2017, 10:33:39 am
Ultimately it's not particularly important about how your starfighter flies so long as it's actually fun to fly. I've never once jumped into Arena Commander without bemoaning the controls, interface, fps, etc.

I quite like space games with newton-ish flight model, so that's might be part of the reason why I whine about its implementation in SC. I have played SC during few free fly events, but I don't think I've ever had any fun, it's just too sluggish and unwieldy, in space flight or during on-foot gameplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on March 01, 2017, 10:36:34 am
I quite like space games with newton-ish flight model, so that's might be part of the reason why I whine about its implementation in SC. I have played SC during few free fly events, but I don't think I've ever had any fun, it's just too sluggish and unwieldy, in space flight or during on-foot gameplay.

FSO could do Newtonian, but the game is not balanced for it by default. So far, only Dimensional Eclipse did use that flight model AFAIK.

If you want a good Newtonian sim, the Indepence War series is worth a look. The second one has a bit of a rough start, but once you get into and get the ship after the tug, it really takes off.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 01, 2017, 10:37:39 am
Have you played E:D? It is IMO the best pseudo-newtonian flight model ever made; it gives you a full 6 degrees of freedom and then puts enough corners and limitations on them to make combat actually require thought and skill.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 01, 2017, 01:16:12 pm
Rolling to turn is definitely not a defining characteristic of atmospheric flight. If you can't play with lift then your game isn't "atmospheric".
If applying roll and slight opposite yaw/rudder causes your craft to sideslip(maintain heading while changing orientation) then your game is atmospheric. If it causes the craft do to a low-radius barrel roll then it's not.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on March 02, 2017, 01:37:03 am
(https://i.imgur.com/tiPc1Vj.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on March 02, 2017, 02:37:03 am
Well you can't admit you backed a losing proposition, can you?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on March 02, 2017, 07:04:55 am
@Torchwood, Phantom Hoover: Thanks, but I have Elite since its' release, and I have completed I-War 2 at least three times. By the way, saying that the game takes off after acquiring a Patcom is a great bit of understatement.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on March 02, 2017, 10:42:00 am
I have completed I-War 2 at least three times.

Only 3 times? :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 02, 2017, 11:07:46 am
Interesting how about a year ago all the culty posts that ended up on SA or this thread would have scores like +60 while now they're in the negative. Maybe the SC community really is waking up after 6 years of "development".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on March 02, 2017, 11:28:51 am
Maybe the SC community really is waking up after 6 years of "development".

https://www.xkcd.com/1013/ :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on March 02, 2017, 12:23:56 pm
Maybe the SC community really is waking up after 6 years of "development".

https://www.xkcd.com/1013/ :-)

I can't help but feel like they missed an opportunity by not drawing the actual freaky deaky sheep pupil in that close up.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Bryan See on March 08, 2017, 12:37:56 pm
And they have to think twice.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on March 08, 2017, 12:46:07 pm
Bot harder, Bryan.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 01, 2017, 05:04:51 am
star citizen is still in pre-alpha but it's already a fun, good and lively game (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62czhh/i_can_barely_earn_rec_because_no_one_seems_to_be/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on April 01, 2017, 05:09:30 am
But remember, it's soooo deeeeeeeeep
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 02, 2017, 07:25:25 am
But remember, it's soooo deeeeeeeeep

So? Ship sales are going well! That's all that matters, right?

Even the old Drake ship lineup without the mythical "LTI" managed to make them 150k in just one day yesterday. Oh and I just checked the funding stats, they are up to 145,838,771$ total now. 145,838,771$!  :eek:

And I have a feeling that number has long become a yardstick for the imagined awesomeness of the game over there at RSI. It really is kinda like a prosperity cult, as mentioned earlier.
(And the funny thing is, it would be the first "prosperity cult" that could, in theory, work as advertised, if it wasn't for their total incompetency.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 02, 2017, 07:29:21 am
is it just me or after 5 years of development is the basic gameplay still in shambles (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62wius/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_space_combat_terrible/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 02, 2017, 07:38:22 am
is it just me or after 5 years of development is the basic gameplay still in shambles (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62wius/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_space_combat_terrible/)

If you want to go full cynic mode you have to admit that "obviously broken" combat that of course will be much much better "in the future" is pretty much perfect if you are in the business of selling "dreams" instead of actual "games". And it doesn't matter if they do it on purpose or out of genuine incompetency.

Nothing could hurt them more at this stage, than presenting gameplay in "finished" stage.



P.S. In related news: This video made me so sad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5kXCm2ct0 (Check the date after watching it.)
P.P.S.: It also made quite a few people at RSI sad: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/376405/wtf-is-this-vid-an-april-fools-joke
P.P.P.S.: We still *need* a new space game for this generation ... and it sucks how this "dream" has been captured and is currently run into the ground by a certain Chris Roberts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 02, 2017, 08:47:50 am
P.P.P.S.: We still *need* a new space game for this generation ... and it sucks how this "dream" has been captured and is currently run into the ground by a certain Chris Roberts.

I guess Elite: Dangerous doesn't count because it's had a development in the reverse direction?

Oh, wait, it doesn't, despite being a functional game delivered as promised​ and drastically improved over the past almost-three years, clearly not a space game for our generation. :P

I've flat out given up on SC being anything that could be considered "fun." At least the ****ing combat in ED is consistent, while every update in a goddamn five year old alpha changes the combat so much that nobody is happy.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 02, 2017, 10:56:54 am
is it just me or after 5 years of development is the basic gameplay still in shambles (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62wius/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_space_combat_terrible/)

If you want to go full cynic mode you have to admit that "obviously broken" combat that of course will be much much better "in the future" is pretty much perfect if you are in the business of selling "dreams" instead of actual "games". And it doesn't matter if they do it on purpose or out of genuine incompetency.

Nothing could hurt them more at this stage, than presenting gameplay in "finished" stage.



P.S. In related news: This video made me so sad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5kXCm2ct0 (Check the date after watching it.)
P.P.S.: It also made quite a few people at RSI sad: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/376405/wtf-is-this-vid-an-april-fools-joke
P.P.P.S.: We still *need* a new space game for this generation ... and it sucks how this "dream" has been captured and is currently run into the ground by a certain Chris Roberts.


If you want a new Privateer, have you tried X3:Albion Prelude? It's the best open world space sim you can get, and pretty good at its job if you can overlook the flaws and/or are willing to mod them out. Just stay away from X: Rebirth, it's garbage.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on April 02, 2017, 12:57:09 pm
But remember, it's soooo deeeeeeeeep

So? Ship sales are going well! That's all that matters, right?

Even the old Drake ship lineup without the mythical "LTI" managed to make them 150k in just one day yesterday. Oh and I just checked the funding stats, they are up to 145,838,771$ total now. 145,838,771$!  :eek:

And I have a feeling that number has long become a yardstick for the imagined awesomeness of the game over there at RSI. It really is kinda like a prosperity cult, as mentioned earlier.
(And the funny thing is, it would be the first "prosperity cult" that could, in theory, work as advertised, if it wasn't for their total incompetency.)

On the other hand, their funding in the first quarter of 2017 was worse than for 2014, 2015 and 2016, so the hype is kinda slowing down. Of course I'm sure another "totally in-game demo" will make it skyrocket again.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 02, 2017, 06:06:18 pm
P.P.P.S.: We still *need* a new space game for this generation ... and it sucks how this "dream" has been captured and is currently run into the ground by a certain Chris Roberts.

I guess Elite: Dangerous doesn't count because it's had a development in the reverse direction?

Oh, wait, it doesn't, despite being a functional game delivered as promised​ and drastically improved over the past almost-three years, clearly not a space game for our generation. :P

I've flat out given up on SC being anything that could be considered "fun." At least the ****ing combat in ED is consistent, while every update in a goddamn five year old alpha changes the combat so much that nobody is happy.

No Elite doesn't count for me, because I refuse to play games anymore that revolve mostly about grinding as the main motivation to play.
SC doesn't count for me either for that matter because: See trainwreck described in this post. And whether SC will end up as just another grinding game is still up in the air as well.
(I had my hopes on SQ42 from the start ... but that hope is several meters below ground level by now.)

Matter of fact, what I am really looking forward to is the next instalment of Blue Planet. No ifs, no buts, just adoration.  :)

But it would be nice to have a commercial Space Sim that finally tells a story worth telling again as well. 


is it just me or after 5 years of development is the basic gameplay still in shambles (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62wius/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_space_combat_terrible/)

If you want to go full cynic mode you have to admit that "obviously broken" combat that of course will be much much better "in the future" is pretty much perfect if you are in the business of selling "dreams" instead of actual "games". And it doesn't matter if they do it on purpose or out of genuine incompetency.

Nothing could hurt them more at this stage, than presenting gameplay in "finished" stage.



P.S. In related news: This video made me so sad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5kXCm2ct0 (Check the date after watching it.)
P.P.S.: It also made quite a few people at RSI sad: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/376405/wtf-is-this-vid-an-april-fools-joke
P.P.P.S.: We still *need* a new space game for this generation ... and it sucks how this "dream" has been captured and is currently run into the ground by a certain Chris Roberts.


If you want a new Privateer, have you tried X3:Albion Prelude? It's the best open world space sim you can get, and pretty good at its job if you can overlook the flaws and/or are willing to mod them out. Just stay away from X: Rebirth, it's garbage.

Yes I did. Played the heck out of it actually, despite past experience with the X Games. X - Games still always make me sad in the end because so much promise meets such bad mechanics. Basic space combat and space combat AI always sucked and X3 is no difference. Outfitting a full airwing for your new Carrier and then noticing that 50 fighters have a hard time hitting anything with guns is a bit of a downer. Those capital ships that deftly dodge their bulk out of the way of comically slowly incoming capital weapon shots is another matter, effectively meaning a player run ship can defeat dozens of enemy capitals while an AI controlled ship usually dies in the first headon charge ... because AI can't dodge DUH! Don't take me wrong ... the X - Games do a lot of things right and I guess what they do best is that elusive "immersion" that SC is always after as well. But the story has always been so bad in the X Games that it gives rise to unintended hilarious laughing fits and that coupled with gameplay that mostly revolves around getting "more so that you can get more so that you can get more ... " until you arrive at a point where gameplay kinda breaks down because the developers obviously never gave fleet management or large scale engagements or even basic AI vs AI combat any thought at all always kills it for me in the end. And don't take me wrong ... I get what sandbox games are and what they are trying to do ... but to do that successfully it's not a good idea to continually lure the player in with promises in the early game just to have every single promise come crashing down in the mid and late game due to badly working gameplay mechanics - if they work at all.

Funny thing ... when thinking about it now ... there are a lot of similarities to SC in some respects: I.e. the best times in X3 I had when playing the early game with a small ship as I was only "dreaming" about all the great things one could do in the game later ...  then as you finally arrived at your dreams it turned out the game sh*ts all over them.  :banghead:

What we are seeing now with SC and also Nomads Sky for example, appears to be a new kind of game: A game that is better than anything that came before at making you "dream those dreams", but doesn't wait until mid/late game to start sh*tting all over them, like X3, but rather sh*ts all over them the moment they get officially released and you start playing.  :hopping:


And no, I haven't seen any mods for X3 that address the basic flaws in mechanics, although the last time I checked was of course a couple of years ago. But to fix what is wrong with X3 would pretty much require a rewrite of the entire combat/flight engine and it's AI, just for starters, so I'd be surprised if anyone took that on.


P.S. Sorry for the rant ... you kinda struck a nerve there, as you can probably tell. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 02, 2017, 06:37:26 pm
Oh, did not wanna bring up bad memories. The bits about wasted potential are very true. I found a mod that kind of tried to fix the combat mechanics called X Rebalance mod. But it failed to address many of the fundamentals you mentioned.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on April 03, 2017, 01:09:28 am
The Litcube's Universe mod for X3 takes it's strategy game and runs with it. X: Rebirth got patched to event horizon and back and lots of people are now positive about it.

House of the Dying sun is a short game but it's still a really good space shooter. If you liked Diaspora I bet you will enjoy this one. I am quite certain that that music was designed by somebody who worked on certain BSG things before and the writing, albeit only short, high-density blurbs, does have the mark of another familiar writer in the FS2 community.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 03, 2017, 01:17:58 am
No Elite doesn't count for me, because I refuse to play games anymore that revolve mostly about grinding as the main motivation to play.
SC doesn't count for me either for that matter because: See trainwreck described in this post. And whether SC will end up as just another grinding game is still up in the air as well.

Don't ever play any MMO or RPG, because they're all sandbox grindfests one way or another. :P At least FDev has acknowledged the sparsity of their missions and are working to alleviate that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 03, 2017, 09:36:17 am
The Litcube's Universe mod for X3 takes it's strategy game and runs with it. X: Rebirth got patched to event horizon and back and lots of people are now positive about it.

House of the Dying sun is a short game but it's still a really good space shooter. If you liked Diaspora I bet you will enjoy this one. I am quite certain that that music was designed by somebody who worked on certain BSG things before and the writing, albeit only short, high-density blurbs, does have the mark of another familiar writer in the FS2 community.

I yeah, I played through House of the Dying Sun at least 4 times now. :-)
If i ever pull the trigger on a VR headset then that will be one of the first games to revisit as well.


House of the Dying Sun, being all around awesome, just has one major flaw ... it's too short and leaves you wanting more so badly.

No Elite doesn't count for me, because I refuse to play games anymore that revolve mostly about grinding as the main motivation to play.
SC doesn't count for me either for that matter because: See trainwreck described in this post. And whether SC will end up as just another grinding game is still up in the air as well.

Don't ever play any MMO or RPG, because they're all sandbox grindfests one way or another. :P At least FDev has acknowledged the sparsity of their missions and are working to alleviate that.

Oh I've played MMOs ... even back in the day as Everquest still was the number one. You could say MMOs are the entire reason I am nowadays so opposed to "gameplay" mechanics that amount to little else than repeating menial tasks over and over and over as an alternative to actually having to develop content with some depth. MMOs were always enjoyable, not because, but very much DESPITE the (horrible, simplistic, idiotic, offensive, - insert expletive here) gameplay mechanics and usually because of the people you played with. Some more than others, but that's mostly how it is in my eyes.

Now we have that fad where the worst of MMO mechanics is infecting single player games however. Dragon Age Inquisition is a good example for this. Take the worst of what MMOs have to offer in order to artificially increase "playtime" and call it "open world" bleigh.  :shaking: This video still kinda explains the issue best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c

There was actually one MMO that I adored and played the heck out of back in the day and that is the original Guild Wars. Low level cap. Leveling up being not a grind but rather the tutorial. Max level gear being easily available at every corner. Grinding being purely optional for only cosmetics. And gameplay revolving all around finding good skill decks with good synergies, team play and strategy and challenging missions. But that too was weakened in the sequel, which is still less grindy than most MMOs out there, but very much bleigh in comparison to it's brilliant predecessor - oh and it's much more "monetized" as well. 

Which brings us back to SC ... I still find it highly ironic that so many companies are/were fighting such an uphill battle/shooting themselves in the foot trying to "monetize" their games in all kinds of horrible and idiotic ways with microtransactions that has entire communities up in arms  ... and now Chris Roberts comes around and shows that people are perfectly fine with microtransactions, even "macrotransactions", or what do you call 1000$ space ships?, as long as you charge them not after, but before the game is released.  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 03, 2017, 10:15:49 am
Nothing could hurt them more at this stage, than presenting gameplay in "finished" stage.

This is such a brilliant point. To state the obvious - it is in CIG's best interest not to complete SC and it would seem they've built their business model around that philosophy. They make EA look like ****ing saints.

O/T - I recently started the Witcher 3 (after reading the 1st book) and it's sort of ruined every other sandbox/rpg game I own. The quantity and quality of lore, the sheer detail and uniqueness of the sidequests, particularly the monster-hunting ones...the game makes Bethesda look like ****ing dilettantes!

EDIT:

Quote
Matter of fact, what I am really looking forward to is the next instalment of Blue Planet. No ifs, no buts, just adoration.

Likewise. I lurk HLP boards for exactly that and Diaspora. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 03, 2017, 10:24:21 am
O/T - I recently started the Witcher 3 (after reading the 1st book) and it's sort of ruined every other sandbox/rpg game I own. The quantity and quality of lore, the sheer detail and uniqueness of the sidequests, particularly the monster-hunting ones...the game makes Bethesda look like ****ing dilettantes!

oh **** off, they're different games trying to do different things and there are plenty of places where skyrim makes TW3 look like a clumsy fisher-price tech demo

i don't even get why people like you compare tw3 to bethesda when it's so obviously a direct sibling to bioware RPGs
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 03, 2017, 10:39:46 am
Well excuse me for having an opinion then. I always found Skyrim's combat to be clunky and unenjoyable personally, whereas I love the combat in TW3. It is a newer game, I will concede.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 03, 2017, 10:42:47 am
TW3's combat is *decent* but it's painfully clear that it's totally divorced from the good parts of the game. Skyrim's combat is clunky as **** but it fits better with the simulationist, first person, ~immersive~ viewpoint that the game uses to present its world.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on April 03, 2017, 11:51:39 am
O/T - I recently started the Witcher 3 (after reading the 1st book) and it's sort of ruined every other sandbox/rpg game I own. The quantity and quality of lore, the sheer detail and uniqueness of the sidequests, particularly the monster-hunting ones...the game makes Bethesda look like ****ing dilettantes!

oh **** off, they're different games trying to do different things and there are plenty of places where skyrim makes TW3 look like a clumsy fisher-price tech demo

i don't even get why people like you compare tw3 to bethesda when it's so obviously a direct sibling to bioware RPGs

PH, could you please dial down the language to something more closely resembling that of reasonable adulthood?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 03, 2017, 11:59:14 am
Don't ever play any MMO or RPG, because they're all sandbox grindfests one way or another. :P

I wouldnt even call Elite a sandbox MMO, as it lacks such basic features as exchanging credits between players, years after release. Its like the devs go out of their way to make the gameplay as shallow as possible.

That said, it is still a better game at this stage than SC. My patience with waiting for 3.0 Jesus patch is slowly but surely wearing thin..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 03, 2017, 12:44:17 pm
I wouldnt even call Elite a sandbox MMO, as it lacks such basic features as exchanging credits between players, years after release. Its like the devs go out of their way to make the gameplay as shallow as possible.

Well, the problem with just giving each other credits manifests itself when you see literally every player running around in the "biggest, best ships" shortly afterwards. That's, you know, game-breaking. You're not supposed to be able to outright buy everything at once and that's precisely what credit exchanges would result in. Players would also find a way around any exchange caps they run into.

Furthermore, nearly every feature Star Citizen has (except for Call of Duty IN SPAAAAAACE- wait, ****, Call of Duty did that already, didn't they...?) E:D has or Frontier has planned it. Braben has said at some point he wants people to be walking around in social environments and whatnot. Be a freighter pilot? In the game. Space trucking, yo. Be a pirate? YARR HARR FIDDLE-TEE-DEE! I think the only real differences between SC and E:D at this point are the fact that you can't land on planets themselves, just their moons. E:D doesn't go for the whole supar real simulation space shooty game that SC goes for and E:D doesn't have SC's astronomical list of ships and JPEGs... it just has a measly thirty+ ships. :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 03, 2017, 02:10:12 pm
I'm glad the game is still coming along.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on April 03, 2017, 02:20:42 pm

Good Luck and Godspeed Ship.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/18ddzr.png)
not like I needed you to get home or anything...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 03, 2017, 02:23:38 pm

Good Luck and Godspeed Ship.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/18ddzr.png)
not like I needed you to get home or anything...

What a waste of a perfectly good opportunity to use this meme:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 03, 2017, 05:22:26 pm
Oh God damn I watched that ship go to its people and I ****ing lost it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 04, 2017, 10:10:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/v2o91fq.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on April 05, 2017, 12:56:41 am
During long fidelity sessions in your chariot it's important to have regular breaks for some Yoga exercises. Carry on commando.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 05, 2017, 01:33:36 am
That's uh... some ****in' hardcore yoga, yo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on April 05, 2017, 02:09:35 am
Overheard at CIG:

"So, Dave. You know how humans have hip joints."
"Yeah?"
"How do they, you know, rotate?"
"I dunno, four-dimensionally, I suppose."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on April 05, 2017, 04:48:07 am
The cyborg bodies of the future. ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 05, 2017, 06:52:57 am
Wow, the bugs are reliable enough to make a continuous gif!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 15, 2017, 02:54:12 am
3.0 production schedule has been released.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report

Lots of detailed info, but the bottom line is, Jesus patch is coming on June 29.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on April 15, 2017, 08:27:01 am
So it's going to ride in on a donkey to the waving of palms and cries of Hosanna only to anger the portion of its devotees who hoped it would dramatically uplift their station? :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 15, 2017, 01:22:13 pm
At this point, divine intervention is statistically more probable than CIG getting their fiscal policy under control. It's been officially confirmed that they are spending more than they are getting. They have to present something soon, or else.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 15, 2017, 04:50:23 pm
At this point, divine intervention is statistically more probable than CIG getting their fiscal policy under control. It's been officially confirmed that they are spending more than they are getting. They have to present something soon, or else.

Mhhh did I miss that? Not saying it isn't so, but would like to see a link/quote. Would make me even more happy that I got my refund by now lol.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 16, 2017, 01:33:23 am
At this point, divine intervention is statistically more probable than CIG getting their fiscal policy under control. It's been officially confirmed that they are spending more than they are getting. They have to present something soon, or else.

Depends on how much of the $150 million they have left, that is the big unknown. They could have enough cash reserves to continue for a year or two even when the funding dries up.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 16, 2017, 10:49:32 am
We don't know the exact number of how much they've left, but running the numbers says 'not much'. We know for example, how (http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/29/what-happened-to-star-marine-star-citizens-missing-module) many (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-01-as-star-citizen-hits-usd55m-chris-roberts-insists-all-money-goes-back-into-development) employees (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15603-Letter-From-The-Chairman) CIG had over the years. Cross-reference that with the average salary of employees and that's a hundred million gone at least, even if CRoberts has been underpaying his devs and keeps them going with the promises of prestige and something good for the resume, they're running low event without adding celebrity, animation and studio costs. To make matters worse, their initial backup plans (SQ42 ship sales), as (http://www.pcinvasion.com/squadron-42-fund-star-citizen-cash) confirmed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUc8pA6AUR8&t=1224s) by official sources, are failing, and there is still a lot of features (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/593nng/star_citizen_missing_features_and_broken_promises/) not yet implemented. And Chris Roberts is still being his overly ambitious self, unwilling to compromise on his vision to do everything. Calling this a critical overextension would be like calling the magazine explosion on the HMS Hood a minor malfunction.

Ostensibly, CIG is trying to appear more transparent now, reactions to this are divided between cynicism and Alpha Complex tier mandatory happiness. Personally, I think the attempt at transparency would be more credible if that rather optismistic progress log didn't look like it's full of people who had their faces stapled into a perma-smile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on April 18, 2017, 06:17:15 am
I was hopping through the "Star Citizen: Building a Schedule for a Universe" video and had to literally LOL.
This guys starts talking about all the practical questions that pop up when you want to actually implement cargo into your game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOjXfNnhxf0&feature=youtu.be&t=359 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOjXfNnhxf0&feature=youtu.be&t=359)

These are all excellent questions that should have been answered in a design doc somewhere at the beginning of the project. And people have been asking for specifics on how this will be handled ingame for years.
But they are now in the process of scheduling the tasks that they need to perform to get working cargo system. So I guess the ****izens were right all along, actual game development really just started last Thursday.

This trainwreck just never stops delivering.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on April 18, 2017, 10:34:23 am
When you see super specific deadlines like that all over the place, you can tell they don't plan on making any of them.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 18, 2017, 12:00:04 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/i0olEp7.png)
Think they'll hit the deadline on this?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on April 18, 2017, 12:21:46 pm
Just giving you a heads up on my plans to post in this thread:

April 18 - May 5: Witty and snarky post
April 18 - June 15: Link youtube video of hilarious star citizen bugs
April 18 - May 3: Chris Roberts Photoshop
April 19 - May 2: Chris Roberts Photoshop v2.0
April 18 - April 31: Post "Derek Smart was right"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 19, 2017, 03:40:09 am
Just giving you a heads up on my plans to post in this thread:

April 18 - May 5: Witty and snarky post
April 18 - June 15: Link youtube video of hilarious star citizen bugs
April 18 - May 3: Chris Roberts Photoshop
April 19 - May 2: Chris Roberts Photoshop v2.0
April 18 - April 31: Post "Derek Smart was right"

Ooohhhh I'm on the edge of my seat!!! No wait I'm getting popcorn first!

Also... why does April 18 come after April 19 again? Is time travel involved in your posting!? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Also, when will we get JAD 42: The Star Citizen Menace !? :nod:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on April 19, 2017, 05:52:58 pm
I guess you just don't understand schedule development.

(Then again, neither do I, so that doesn't bode well for anyone (or anything in progress))
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on April 19, 2017, 06:03:51 pm
CIG develops schedules for Star Citizen the same way PGI develops balance patches for MWO:  a dart board.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on April 20, 2017, 02:02:26 am
You just don't understand professional darts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4TkbBMjjA).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on April 20, 2017, 07:32:10 am
I'm fair certain they refer not to those try-hards but to the kind found at the watering hole:
(http://i.imgur.com/YzhjiFl.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on April 20, 2017, 10:20:00 am
I'm fair certain they refer not to those try-hards but to the kind found at the watering hole:

That's where the professional darters come from too: Turns out that throwing whilst drunk is a great way to practice for throwing whilst sober :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 22, 2017, 02:22:56 pm
The difference between drunken darters and CIG schedules is that the former occasionally hit their targets.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on April 22, 2017, 03:48:40 pm
baddummmmmmm   tsssssss
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 24, 2017, 04:46:21 pm
They recently posted a new referral drive:-

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/referral-contest

If you get so many points your character gets an ingame t-shirt or hover bike thing from their new line of obnoxious kitten-related "products", none of which exist ingame so far as I can tell, but of course that's simply SC's modus operandi.

At the end of their video they say - "We'll see you in the 'Verse."

O rly? This **** tickles my cynic organ so hard I have cyncicistitus.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on April 24, 2017, 05:12:03 pm
MFW I see CIG is trying a new marketing stunt (https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 24, 2017, 07:03:22 pm
That contest was such a disgustingly exploitative cashgrab that the top posts in /r/starcitizen for like 3 days straight were complaining about it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on April 24, 2017, 09:58:14 pm
[Kryten]Betray your family and friends. Fabulous prizes to be won[/Kryten]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 25, 2017, 12:50:08 am
[Kryten]Betray your family and friends. Fabulous prizes to be won[/Kryten]

 :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 29, 2017, 05:19:00 am

***start from 12:18***

I must say that watching these production videos is a guilty pleasure of mine. They know how to sell the atmosphere and make things look realistic, livable etc. It's basically why I play ARMA - I'm crap at the game but I really like the immersion aspect it provides. Sure, you also have sort of solid mechanics, which Star citizen won't have and immersion will not keep you interested for more than a few hours per session, but... yeah, if it's a ****show, but I can fly from a station and land on a carrier, explore the place and fly back without it glitching every 2 minutes then I'm still sold (although I won't pay more than 10 bucks for it...). I thought Squadron 42 would provide that with some mediocre pew-pew action, but it seems that it won't happen soon. So I guess I need to wait until they implement carriers and do another free week with it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on April 29, 2017, 06:56:35 am
Heh. I looked at your post, but start at 12:18 was at the bottom of my screen, I didn't see the rest, so I was expecting to see the hilarious bug or the ****show of disorganisation. But yes, it is quite nice. That (I think) moon in that position with those railings where they were reminded me of the XCOM hologlobe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 29, 2017, 07:25:51 am
Nah, I actually like the videos which show the new ships etc.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on April 29, 2017, 02:52:43 pm
Unlock the privilege to buy the Javelin for 2500$ by buying a 15,000$ pack.  Is CIG not generous?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on April 29, 2017, 04:46:20 pm
(http://www.alimartell.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Screen-Shot-2013-01-14-at-9.45.23-AM.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 29, 2017, 05:14:37 pm
Starcitizen is good
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 30, 2017, 02:16:33 am
The two ships had their running lights absolutely synchronised, copypasta is bad form with cgi.
Broke immersion for me.
*tears 35k cheque up*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 03, 2017, 05:00:17 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/68pgs9/that_insane_level_of_details_captured_with_ultra/dh1ihs2/

Star Citizen uses over 12,000 vertices and a shader that renders them 3 times over, for the player model's eye. And the effect still looks like ****!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on May 03, 2017, 05:58:34 am
Yet another entry in the ongoing series of really baffling engineering decisions.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on May 03, 2017, 05:00:47 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/68pgs9/that_insane_level_of_details_captured_with_ultra/dh1ihs2/

Star Citizen uses over 12,000 vertices and a shader that renders them 3 times over, for the player model's eye. And the effect still looks like ****!

Oh oh i know why they did it ... they wanted the eyes to look extra nice because - according to youtube videos - people are going to see the insides of those eyes all the time!  :nod: :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on May 05, 2017, 12:31:22 am
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-star-citizen-video-shows-mark-hamills-characte/1100-6449822/?utm_source=gamefaqs&utm_medium=partner&utm_content=news_module&utm_campaign=hub_platform#comments-block-33390055
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 05, 2017, 04:52:07 am
lol, they've still not made enough progress on integrating their mocap into the engine to do anything more than the talking heads they had a year ago
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on May 05, 2017, 06:13:10 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/i0olEp7.png)
Think they'll hit the deadline on this?

Nope.

(https://ibin.co/3LT9aK6rfV1P.png)

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on May 05, 2017, 07:04:23 pm
So is that May 24th of this year, or May 17th of the year 2024?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on May 06, 2017, 04:55:51 am
So is that May 24th of this year, or May 17th of the year 2024?

3017. I'm pretty sure they'll have AIs that can automatically program the Star Citizen version for you that you personally want on the fly. Then they use you for batteries ... or something.  :nod:

Just wait for the CIG announcement: "After realizing that a fully handcrafted universe is a sh** ton of work after all and after further realizing that procedural content generation only goes so far, we are now fully focusing on AI research to program the game for us because we ourselves are finally fed up with our own incompetency. Also: Watch out for the latest ship sales to fund our new AI overlords! $$$$  :)" And don't forget you heard it here first.  ;7
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 06, 2017, 06:42:09 am
Starcitizen is good
at being a hilarious trainwreck in slowmotion
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on May 06, 2017, 06:54:19 am
I don't know... everything seems to work according to Crobblers plans.

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B8E1oi6H-R3rUEVCOG5qVUItdDg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on May 06, 2017, 01:13:23 pm
HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on May 06, 2017, 01:46:20 pm
Behold the power of 64 bit math
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on May 06, 2017, 02:17:11 pm
GEDDAN
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on May 06, 2017, 03:08:54 pm
I think this is a step in the right direction. They clearly aim to recreate and expand on refined mechanics of baseball colossus.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on May 07, 2017, 02:25:06 pm
HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE

Ring's rotation gets slaved to a ship for some reason, I'm pretty sure they have supposedly fixed that bug once already.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 07, 2017, 03:16:34 pm
So they've now updated their production schedules: 3.0 release has been predictably pushed back until July, and more importantly ~bind culling~, the jesus tech that was going to fix the abysmal performance in the PU, has been pushed out of the release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on May 07, 2017, 03:28:06 pm
There was some CIG employee which has pointed out bind culling is not going to help as much as two other technologies, one included in 3.0, the other one in 3.2 or something, so at least half a year/year out. Still, it's pretty interesting that bind culling showed up in the first schedule report, which claims the work on it has started on the 10th of October 2016, perhaps even earlier. So, 8 and a half months of work on this and it's still not ready.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on May 07, 2017, 03:43:35 pm
I, for one, remain curious as to how far one's gullability can be stretched. From what I've heard, your average megawhale is not typically one easily dazzled - the ones most susceptible to getting pulled into these projects are cynics who disdain mainstream game development. Ironically enough, that makes them desperate for seeking out The One, that sacred cow that'll do everything better and make it right at last. That kind of personality has a remarkable tolerance for overlooking flaws in The One, but when they eventually snap, they snap hard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on May 09, 2017, 09:48:14 am
I, for one, remain curious as to how far one's gullability can be stretched. From what I've heard, your average megawhale is not typically one easily dazzled - the ones most susceptible to getting pulled into these projects are cynics who disdain mainstream game development. Ironically enough, that makes them desperate for seeking out The One, that sacred cow that'll do everything better and make it right at last. That kind of personality has a remarkable tolerance for overlooking flaws in The One, but when they eventually snap, they snap hard.

I'm sure quite a number have snapped already - and afaik gotten a refund. But when you have a whole herd of them reinforcing their commitment to each other then single whales snapping is hardly anything one would notice all that much.

The true question is when/if the number of "snapping whales" will reach critical mass. Probably around the time CIG realizes it can't afford refunds anymore. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on May 09, 2017, 07:09:36 pm
My favorite whales are the ones who react to criticism of the game by pledging more.

"You think I'm an idiot for doing this?  Well I'll prove I'm not an idiot by doing this thing again!  U mad goons?"

It's so insecure I love it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on May 09, 2017, 08:34:13 pm
One day Star Citizen will be held up as a perfect example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on May 09, 2017, 09:23:40 pm
One day Star Citizen will be held up as a perfect example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

Hopefully I'll be forgiven for agreeing with you there, karajorma. It's not claiming my money.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 15, 2017, 07:03:03 am
lol
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on May 15, 2017, 07:08:37 am
Perfect music choice. :D

Nobody does bugs better than Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on May 15, 2017, 11:32:01 am
Looking at these guys justify the hundreds to thousands of dollars they have spent on a game not even out yet makes me eh. Is it them showing off how rich they are, or is it to build SC cred?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on May 15, 2017, 01:37:02 pm
Looking at these guys justify the hundreds to thousands of dollars they have spent on a game not even out yet makes me eh. Is it them showing off how rich they are, or is it to build SC cred?

It's an enormous testament to sunk cost fallacy.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on May 16, 2017, 02:24:16 am
Looking at these guys justify the hundreds to thousands of dollars they have spent on a game not even out yet makes me eh. Is it them showing off how rich they are, or is it to build SC cred?

It's an enormous testament to sunk cost fallacy.

I must say I enjoy this thread much more after my refund. Anyone got that refund pic around still?

It's not too late. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 17, 2017, 02:07:19 pm
best post in worst subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6bhlnv/can_someone_explain_to_me_why_you_care_when_s42/dhmse95/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on May 17, 2017, 03:23:19 pm
Quote from: Gigantism
Now I'm just hungry.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on May 17, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Makes me think of the pizza video from The Onion that I posted in this thread. Fun post.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on May 17, 2017, 06:46:17 pm
Now I'm hungry and happy that I got my refund so I can order a bunch of less fancy but more lovingly made pizzas.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on May 18, 2017, 09:39:36 am
Very well written, but the sad part is this kind of **** just writes itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on May 18, 2017, 11:32:39 am
lol

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :)

(http://i.imgur.com/FyehFHs.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on May 18, 2017, 12:49:13 pm
That's a 100% fair comparison and in no way a wretched one.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on May 19, 2017, 08:31:03 pm
The newest jpeg, a concept for a stealth bomber, is now on sale for $250. $275 if you want LTI.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 20, 2017, 05:04:28 pm
What is LTI,  and why is a jpg the price of a graphics card?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on May 20, 2017, 05:18:15 pm
What is LTI,  and why is a jpg the price of a graphics card?



"Lifetime (ship) insurance" which is officially said to be not worth much ingame because supposedly regular insurance is supposed to be cheap but it is all the rage everyone wants anyways, because uh... i guess it's unique and you can only get it now and not later when the game ... uh releases, yeah right, when it ... releases LOL when SC releases HAHAHAHA /falls of chair.  :lol:

Afaik however, there is no price difference. Both ship versions have LTI. The difference is that the ship is 250$ if you pay with "new" real money and 275$ if you pay with store credit that you got by melting something you bought before.

In any case ... that they still sell these things and actually get buyers is hilarious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on May 21, 2017, 12:47:19 am
"Lifetime (ship) insurance" which is officially said to be not worth much ingame because supposedly regular insurance is supposed to be cheap but it is all the rage everyone wants anyways, because uh... i guess it's unique and you can only get it now and not later when the game ... uh releases, yeah right, when it ... releases LOL when SC releases HAHAHAHA /falls of chair.  :lol:

Afaik however, there is no price difference. Both ship versions have LTI. The difference is that the ship is 250$ if you pay with "new" real money and 275$ if you pay with store credit that you got by melting something you bought before.

In any case ... that they still sell these things and actually get buyers is hilarious.

At this point I agree with you. People believing that the pizza will eventually be delivered deserve what their stupidity brings. Years ago I'd have sympathy because I was one of those people, but I decided to defund the pizza place.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on May 22, 2017, 06:27:17 am
Pizza? Now that's what I call a Taco!


Star Citizen is like this except all the ingredients for the extra **** noone wants are either waiting to be prepped or were never the correct ingredients to begin with.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 25, 2017, 09:12:10 am
Get your money out of this project if you haven't already, for god's sake. (http://press-start.com.au/news/2017/06/25/star-citizen-now-belongs-bank/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 25, 2017, 12:05:04 pm
Not sure about the article and I'm genuinely shocked that I...... :shaking:........agreed with Derek smart......:snipe:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on June 25, 2017, 12:08:46 pm
Don't worry, Dekker.  Smart is the broken clock of people, and Star Citizen is one of the two things he's been right about.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on June 25, 2017, 12:15:29 pm
I like how the citizens are already in maximum damage control mode, reading through the documentation and somehow coming up with ridiculous conclusions because none of them understand what any of it means. Some are even claiming this is a good financial move because the interest rate is 0.25%(when it clearly isn't), or that blowing a $150M budget with nothing to show for it is reasonable because they have a ~450 man team now, as if that in any way justifies their failings.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 25, 2017, 02:41:08 pm
Guys it's ok for CIG to need a loan because Apple gets loans too!  You just don't understand game development design art plagiarism marketing Chris Roberts' brilliance finances.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on June 25, 2017, 03:24:38 pm
I am so glad I never bought this. Also, the fact that they are taking a loan blows my mind. With the income they have, I thought they would be fine for longer than that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on June 25, 2017, 03:45:56 pm
Guys, I'm beginning to think Star Citizen may not be coming out.

(http://i.imgur.com/Thxf2bc.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: headdie on June 25, 2017, 03:47:27 pm
with 150mil capital and the ship purchaces the company should have been set for life
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 25, 2017, 03:52:37 pm
Ortwin has now released a ~plausible statement that the loan is secured against the tax credit being paid to them by the UK government, so I'm not sure if this is actually as disastrously bad as it first appears.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 25, 2017, 04:56:44 pm
Ortwin has now released a ~plausible statement that the loan is secured against the tax credit being paid to them by the UK government, so I'm not sure if this is actually as disastrously bad as it first appears.

Ortwin's post for clarity. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/re-uk-tax-rebate-advance-for-foundry-42/277779)

I would tend to agree in this case, however the fact that they even need to take out a loan in and of itself speaks volumes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 25, 2017, 05:02:23 pm
I mean one thing that's kept me very sceptical of the alarmist point of view on this is that taking out a loan is often a smart move in finance even if you could afford not to do so.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on June 25, 2017, 08:39:09 pm
Ortwin's probably lying through his teeth. Derek's never been wrong before.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on July 03, 2017, 11:33:08 am
Mingles with Jingles gives his say on how Star Citizen is going recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5AoT6IMtGE

tl:dr he's not super pleased
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 08, 2017, 03:10:14 pm
Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Jesus patch 3.0 still MIA


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on July 10, 2017, 12:01:28 am
Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Wow, feels like it's been longer.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Jeff Vader on July 10, 2017, 03:10:32 am
(http://cdn3.meme.am/cache/images/folder666/600x600/14605666/its-been-84-years.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 10, 2017, 06:32:19 am
(http://cdn3.meme.am/cache/images/folder666/600x600/14605666/its-been-84-years.jpg)

Now's the time to lay aside some money so you can later get into a nursing home with good Wifi so you can play SC!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 10, 2017, 06:52:34 am
2 weeks!

Two
Weeks
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 10, 2017, 01:17:47 pm
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/s3vwh1LY1fUUU/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 10, 2017, 01:29:54 pm
Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Wow, feels like it's been longer.
Maybe you're thinking of this.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84931.0

A further two years back into the mists of time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on July 10, 2017, 02:09:53 pm
http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizens-procedural-planets-flaunted-in-new-video/

This talks about visuals in the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 11, 2017, 03:12:46 am
What wonderful memories.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 11, 2017, 05:17:02 am
Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Wow, feels like it's been longer.
Maybe you're thinking of this.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84931.0

A further two years back into the mists of time.

I don't have an RSI account any more, but I'm pretty sure the Organisation is still on there. Makes me somewhat sullen to think about how excited I was at the time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2017, 05:19:51 am
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.

It may realistically take 5 years to develop a big game like SC.

2012 + 5 = 2017

I'm so hyped for the upcoming release of this super duper game I can't even
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 11, 2017, 08:44:02 am
I'm so hyped for the upcoming release of this super duper game I can't even

They dont call 3.0 a Jesus patch for nothing. End of 2012 + 5 years = end of 2017. Released or not, if the game it is not getting *good* around that time, I shall become very skeptical.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 08:55:06 am
Spoiler:
The game is not going to become good, not with 3.0, or ever.
It will remain the same old janky mess of seperate tech demos.
You should have been skeptical a long time ago, right now its time for you to give up hope.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 08:55:43 am
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84931.0

A further two years back into the mists of time.
The wall of shame!  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 11, 2017, 09:42:27 am
Listen we've been told by CR himself that 3.0 will be out before the end of 2016.  Hopefully not on Dec. 19 like the last time, either.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2017, 09:53:53 am
Can't wait for dec 2016!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 11, 2017, 10:22:23 am
Can't wait for dec 2016!

When is the next dec 2016!!??!?! I wants to play! :( :sigh: :nono:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 12:06:21 pm
Answer the call
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 12:07:22 pm
Can someone please explain to me game development? I don't seem to understand it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 11, 2017, 12:30:10 pm
I'm so hyped for the upcoming release of this super duper game I can't even

They dont call 3.0 a Jesus patch for nothing.

Because when it also doesn't deliver what the devotees were hoping for they will crucify CR?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on July 11, 2017, 12:38:47 pm
I'm so hyped for the upcoming release of this super duper game I can't even

They dont call 3.0 a Jesus patch for nothing.

Because when it also doesn't deliver what the devotees were hoping for they will crucify CR?

I thought it was we wait over 2000 years for the end?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 11, 2017, 12:57:40 pm
I'm so hyped for the upcoming release of this super duper game I can't even

They dont call 3.0 a Jesus patch for nothing.

Because when it also doesn't deliver what the devotees were hoping for they will crucify CR?

Mhhh doubt it. The vibe I'm getting is similar to the one in that Prophecy/Rapture thread in the political subforum.

If it's not this year, it must surely be next year! Rinse ... repeat.  :nod:
People have too much money invested to admit to themselves they have been fools.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 12:59:13 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/U2MP9DD.png)

4.0 is when the game will really start to get good!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2017, 01:06:16 pm
Imagine having put tens of thousands of dollars into jpgs of spaceship concept art
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 11, 2017, 01:24:48 pm
Imagine having put tens of thousands of dollars into jpgs of spaceship concept art

Even if the game were released and as good as the ****izens dream it to be, putting that kind of money into a computer game is insane.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on July 11, 2017, 02:12:47 pm
If CR doesn't finish this in his lifetime, does he have kids to carry on the work?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 11, 2017, 04:12:29 pm
If CR doesn't finish this in his lifetime, does he have kids to carry on the work?

If he doesn't have any yet, then he'd better get on that quick.  $150 million can fuel one hell of a lethal cocaine habit.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 11, 2017, 04:55:00 pm
I would be willing to let him adopt me for 50 million.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 11, 2017, 06:00:43 pm
I would be willing to let him adopt me for 50 million.

If he'd adopt some people from HLP maybe the frigging game actually would get finished. Hah.

(After Engine switch to FSO  :nod: :lol: )
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 11, 2017, 06:32:01 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84931.0

A further two years back into the mists of time.
The wall of shame!  :p
He he he. :D

Speaking of people though...

http://imgur.com/a/0pEmV

Just look at how many are working on this game. The combined man hours must be staggering. I wonder how it would compare to the combined man hours put in throughout the entire history of the SCP, and by :v: before that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 11, 2017, 07:09:55 pm
I will never understand why they need 4 ****ing studios.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on July 11, 2017, 09:36:16 pm
To take advantage of the forex markets using tax credit leverages on the debt swap default market via junk bond derivatives by means of obtaining potential investments for digitally enhanced conceptual bitmap data through fiber/copper telecommunication protocols.

The company generates income just by existing. They no longer need their backers and can take however long they need to perfect this visionary game.

Yes, you could say its now a parpetual money making machine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 12, 2017, 11:25:48 am
Derek smart's twitter is glowing red hot, he's tweeting at a frantic pace.
Is the ELE here? Will it finally happen??

Spoiler:
Probably not, but its always fun to see him proclaim it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on July 12, 2017, 01:00:52 pm
Is there a site that approximates the money they should have right now? I fail to find any atm.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 12, 2017, 08:56:57 pm
Yes, you could say its now a parpetual money making machine.

(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-master.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on July 12, 2017, 10:08:55 pm
I don't know how much Star Citizen has brought in so far (with completion not in sight yet).

Part of the thread title got me thinking:  Would it be fair to assume that for a lesser amount Roberts could have created a quality Wing Commander 6?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 12, 2017, 10:25:24 pm
For a lesser amount CRoberts could have created a quality Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 13, 2017, 05:30:08 am
Well, anyone who isnt croberts could have done it for sure.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Turambar on July 13, 2017, 03:57:37 pm
Well, anyone who isnt croberts could have done it for sure.

gestures towards prominent SC critic derek smart as a counterexample
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 13, 2017, 05:17:49 pm
Well, anyone who isnt croberts could have done it for sure.

gestures towards prominent SC critic derek smart as a counterexample

Help me FSO Kenobi ... you are the space-sims only hope!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 13, 2017, 05:24:16 pm
Well, anyone who isnt croberts could have done it for sure.

gestures towards prominent SC critic derek smart as a counterexample
Yeah okay, fair point. Let me rephrase: Anyone who is a competent game designer/director could have done it. Which naturally rules out croberts (and dsmart)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 14, 2017, 08:18:19 am
I don't know how much Star Citizen has brought in so far (with completion not in sight yet).

Part of the thread title got me thinking:  Would it be fair to assume that for a lesser amount Roberts could have created a quality Wing Commander 6?

There is a game on Steam called Eterium that is essentially the first Wing Commander in 3D and ****ty anime style 2D portraits for the characters, it's sitting on my wishlist since forever, I've only tried the demo when I had the old HDD so I had to delete it to make space before giving it a proper try.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 14, 2017, 09:52:04 am
https://youtu.be/I_rSQGavuiI?t=212

CIG focusing on the important **** imo.

(http://i.imgur.com/2YJtmSZ.gif)

Core gameplay not finalized yet but by god are the drinks going to react to gravity properly.


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 14, 2017, 10:11:48 am
That has way too few polygons. 6/10 wouldn't drink. Also, where the **** are the caustics? Jesus F Christ, the lack of detail of this **** can you believe it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 14, 2017, 10:42:10 am
Yeah, why aren't they doing GPU-accelerated particle physics there
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 14, 2017, 10:52:57 am
All the poor souls at nvidia developing CUDA and the likes... only to be ignored by wine cup physic developers. SAD!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 14, 2017, 11:13:09 am
When you have 40,000 employees and your eye-stabilization routine is finished, what else are you supposed to work on besides zero-g liquid physics?  You just don't understand game development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 14, 2017, 11:14:30 am
I can envision a future  where Star Citizen has solved all sorts of small and big problems in gaming (and possibly physics simulation in general) except the bits that involve releasing a playable game.

eg half the programmers on SC are doing this:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/academia_vs_business.png)

The other half are busy with existential dread.

Those two halves may be overlapping, in which case I have no idea what the undefined bit is doing. They probably left and are still on the books because the project leads are too busy daydreaming to notice that half their staff is missing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 14, 2017, 11:24:34 am
...besides zero-g liquid physics?

omg I can't wait for zero g liquid physics and the absolute space bending gameplay of getting all wine droplets into my 30000 polygon-designed mouth.

i hope they use machine learning to cope with the viscosity problems associated with it, don't want to give wrong solutions to such a beautiful problem.

anything worse than this quality below is unadmissable u hear me cR?

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 14, 2017, 11:28:28 am
Star Citizen is not complete until it has achieved MAXIMUM IMMERSION. In LIQUIDS.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 14, 2017, 11:31:39 am
https://youtu.be/I_rSQGavuiI?t=212

CIG focusing on the important **** imo.

(http://i.imgur.com/2YJtmSZ.gif)

Core gameplay not finalized yet but by god are the drinks going to react to gravity properly.

The ability to accurately model the water to wine conversion is core functionality for "The Jesus Patch."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 14, 2017, 11:33:12 am
i haven't seen ships being able to swim in muh procedural planets wtf is that about come on what crap is this I can't believe this ****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 14, 2017, 11:38:52 am
i haven't seen ships being able to swim in muh procedural planets wtf is that about come on what crap is this I can't believe this ****.

Exactly, if you can't tell that a fleet crashlanded in the oceans on the other side of the planet by measuring the waves, *what is even the point*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 14, 2017, 12:07:27 pm
Slightly off topic aside: The water physics in Battlefield 4 being synced across all 64 players in multiplayer combined with the wavemaking caused by, say, the storms, the wakes of the ships of other players or a skyscraper coming down was great. Esp. since you could use them for cover if you were driving a jetski.

(So yeah DICE got there first).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 14, 2017, 02:24:39 pm
Impossible.  Nothing in Star Citizen has been done before.  Stop spreading FUD.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 14, 2017, 02:45:45 pm
Impossible.  Nothing in Star Citizen has been done before.  Stop spreading FUD.

SC put the water in a glass! I bet Battlefield didn't do that!!!! Hah! :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 14, 2017, 03:23:54 pm
They (battlefield) released a finished single player campaign.  :eek:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 14, 2017, 03:57:12 pm
They've released multiple ones, even :p

(although, aside from the opening mission of Battlefield 1, they aren't very good)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on July 14, 2017, 04:40:20 pm
Does Squadron 42 have a release date yet? A new trailer? Wasn't it supposed to be out in 2016?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 14, 2017, 04:57:25 pm
They (battlefield) released a finished single player campaign.  :eek:

SC doesn t do things that have been done before!

Releasing campaigns is so yesterday!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 14, 2017, 11:08:41 pm
Does Squadron 42 have a release date yet? A new trailer? Wasn't it supposed to be out in 2016?
Wow, more FUD.  How was SQ42 supposed to release in 2016 if the game didn't start development until they made Lumberyard in partnership with Amazon in December 2016?  Everything before that was just conceptual.  Development's only been going for 8 months and they about to have a huge Jesus Module release.

Thank you CIG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Hades on July 15, 2017, 01:24:09 am
What's also great about that modeled liquid is it doesn't even look good or right.  with some of the movement they show off a ****load of the liquid would have exited the glass and spilled everywhere. Still better than their flight model or their USB-liquefying updater though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 15, 2017, 06:40:12 am
I'm 100% sure about my theory on these cup liquids. Croberts saw the few mocking comments made by goons about the liquid in the glass not moving, in the gamescom demo from last year. So of course he has to prove everyone wrong and aim for maximum fidelity.
https://youtu.be/GucYhhLwIxg?t=22m47s


Because this is a top priority thing for a game that is janky as all hell and doesn't even have 10% of its core gameplay implented.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 15, 2017, 08:29:30 am
Does Squadron 42 have a release date yet? A new trailer? Wasn't it supposed to be out in 2016?
Wow, more FUD.  How was SQ42 supposed to release in 2016 if the game didn't start development until they made Lumberyard in partnership with Amazon in December 2016?  Everything before that was just conceptual.  Development's only been going for 8 months and they about to have a huge Jesus Module release.

Thank you CIG.


I'm 100% sure about my theory on these cup liquids. Croberts saw the few mocking comments made by goons about the liquid in the glass not moving, in the gamescom demo from last year. So of course he has to prove everyone wrong and aim for maximum fidelity.
https://youtu.be/GucYhhLwIxg?t=22m47s

Because this is a top priority thing for a game that is janky as all hell and doesn't even have 10% of its core gameplay implented.

It's encouraging to know that game development is driven by Goons' trolling. Finally I understand how it all works!

I've always wondered how they could possibly be building missions for SQ42 when the flight mechanics and core gameplay are constantly shifting. Either they haven't been working on the actual gameplay aspects of SQ42 or whatever they've built so far has to be reworked. Given CIG's past history, either of those scenarios is equally likely.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 15, 2017, 10:58:19 am
https://clips.twitch.tv/EndearingTallJayNomNom

They may not know how logging out is supposed to work, but it's still early days.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on July 15, 2017, 02:06:40 pm
Does Squadron 42 have a release date yet? A new trailer? Wasn't it supposed to be out in 2016?
Wow, more FUD.  How was SQ42 supposed to release in 2016 if the game didn't start development until they made Lumberyard in partnership with Amazon in December 2016?  Everything before that was just conceptual.  Development's only been going for 8 months and they about to have a huge Jesus Module release.

Because that's the year the original trailer announced, the one that had the guy giving a speech. From what you're saying, pretty dishonest trailer.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on July 15, 2017, 02:46:46 pm
So I made a small site for funs. I am lacking any reliable data for 2017 right now, but hey it may be useful somehow. https://kobrar.pythonanywhere.com/ (https://kobrar.pythonanywhere.com/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 15, 2017, 03:55:26 pm
Does Squadron 42 have a release date yet? A new trailer? Wasn't it supposed to be out in 2016?
Wow, more FUD.  How was SQ42 supposed to release in 2016 if the game didn't start development until they made Lumberyard in partnership with Amazon in December 2016?  Everything before that was just conceptual.  Development's only been going for 8 months and they about to have a huge Jesus Module release.

Because that's the year the original trailer announced, the one that had the guy giving a speech. From what you're saying, pretty dishonest trailer.

Aesaar is trolling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 15, 2017, 06:13:14 pm
So I made a small site for funs. I am lacking any reliable data for 2017 right now, but hey it may be useful somehow. https://kobrar.pythonanywhere.com/ (https://kobrar.pythonanywhere.com/)

I spitballed some figures into your site and got an estimate that they're between six and sixty-one million dollars in the hole already.

I'll bet the faulty assumption is that pledges are the only source of funding.  Star Citizen as a project has adopted the same business model as an Uwe Boll film:  Strategically choose your location so that your project is profitable off of tax incentives alone, and any income provided by suckers customers is icing on the cake.  Chris Roberts hasn't mastered the strategy yet, since CIG has so many offices with so many employees that the company is taking payday loans to make ends meet, while waiting for their tax returns, but inept implementation doesn't mean that's not the strategy.

Also, something something Nazi gold.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 16, 2017, 10:04:57 am
Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus does look really fun.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 17, 2017, 12:04:35 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3MbPEy1.png)

I want to hear 666maslo666's take on why this is a good thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on July 17, 2017, 12:21:50 pm
I actually tend to agree that 100 super-detailed star systems was ludicrous in the first place, and that the game will likely be better if it doesn't attempt to fulfill that.

Obviously it would have been better to not make such a promise in the first place. And yeah, massively shifting the vision/scope of a crowdfunded game definitely has some problems.

But from a purely pragmatic "given where the game is today" and how to make it a fun / viable / launched game... odds seem better with smaller scope.


Fans claiming that "each planet will be more than a AAA game" is adorably optimistic. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 17, 2017, 12:45:35 pm
If ED charged per system.......
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 17, 2017, 01:38:59 pm
Hey, you could sell JPGs of the jump node access codes needed to get to the systems that haven't been implemented yet!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 17, 2017, 01:57:45 pm
I want to hear 666maslo666's take on why this is a good thing.

Lower number of more detailed systems >> bigger number of less detailed systems.

100 star systems did seem like a very high number to me anyway, and probably pulled out of thin air. So this does not bother me much.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 17, 2017, 02:41:12 pm
It rather depended on what a "system" would actually be like. At first, I thought it would be a system spaceport with some good looking planets. You'd have to design some different space stations and some nice jpegs if the space ports were at the planets. In that kind of setup, 100 could be "manageable", with some clever modular designs.

With 100 fully formed procedural planets that have to look great, it's madness. Even for Croberts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 17, 2017, 03:19:21 pm
It rather depended on what a "system" would actually be like. At first, I thought it would be a system spaceport with some good looking planets. You'd have to design some different space stations and some nice jpegs if the space ports were at the planets. In that kind of setup, 100 could be "manageable", with some clever modular designs.

With 100 fully formed procedural planets that have to look great, it's madness. Even for Croberts.

To be fair ... as the goal of 100 planets/systems was announced, that's exactly how it was: A "planet" was supposed to be nothing more but a landing zone that you could only reach by "autopilot" i.e. a canned flightpath/animation and a limited "ground facility" with shops and bars to walk around in.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on July 17, 2017, 03:26:00 pm
Jep. The old one was nothing more then like Privateer 2. Just with "you can look around while the ship has Autopilot landing" with 3 landing zones.

Now one System had around 4 planets, 9 moons and 30 stations. And in that Speed they can create one they have to say at some Point - it is a release. Five or ten -wayne. But it have to release to get more People in. 2019 could be the date of SC 1.0
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 17, 2017, 03:55:02 pm
With 100 fully formed procedural planets that have to look great, it's madness. Even for Croberts.

In the dreamworld of the ****izens, each single one of those 100 systems consists of a complete star system with multiple planets/moons plus accompanying stations/cities. With each planet having more original content than a modern AAA game.
Sounds crazy, but reddit is full of people daydreaming about that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 17, 2017, 05:14:47 pm
So it sounds like what you're saying is that the feature creep got in the way of the feature creep.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on July 17, 2017, 10:53:41 pm
So it sounds like what you're saying is that the feature creep got in the way of the feature creep.

I think creep is no longer the correct adjective, its about as subtle as an Alfa-Class SSN at flank bell and active sonar on continuous active search.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2017, 12:52:31 am
I want to hear 666maslo666's take on why this is a good thing.

Lower number of more detailed systems >> bigger number of less detailed systems.

100 star systems did seem like a very high number to me anyway, and probably pulled out of thin air. So this does not bother me much.
So you're saying you don't mind that CIG lied to you and it's ok if they abandon stretch goals and break kickstarter promises (this isn't the first one, but still).

How the **** can you trust them if they're willing to bull**** you like that? Hell, they're still bull****ting, because that "100 systems at launch" thing is still on the website.  Where's the guarantee than any time CR says "yes that'll be in the game", it isn't a complete lie?

All these unrealistic promises CIG made, you realise any one of them could (and almost certainly will) get axed, yes?  "But they promised" doesn't mean ****.


The other question this begs is why is the community finding out about this now.  What happened to open development?


Also, it amuses me to think of all those Operation Pitchfork guys (the player invasion of Vanduul space) and what mental gymnastics they must be putting themselves through to cope with the fact that Vanduul space probably won't even be in the game.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on July 18, 2017, 01:17:48 am
The News is old with the 10 Systems.
Back in 2016 GamesCom Chris told that already to Jörg Langer, Founder of Gamestar and now Founder of Gamersglobal.de

http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/star-citizen-2016
I told that several times in the RSI Forum but no one believe it...

“Wir könnten also irgendwann nach Ende 2017 sagen: Wir haben jetzt genug Spiel drin, wir haben vielleicht zehn Sternensysteme fertig, und wir nennen das dann den Release von Star Citizen.” Die weiteren rund 90 Sonnensysteme würden dann nach und nach fertiggestellt, und natürlich auch weitere Inhalte und Features

"We can say sometime after 2017: We have enough game, we have maybe ten starsystems done and we call that Release of Star Citizen. The other about 90 Starsystems will be done after with of Course new Content.

That is a year ago...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 18, 2017, 02:05:55 am
So you're saying you don't mind that CIG lied to you and it's ok if they abandon stretch goals and break kickstarter promises (this isn't the first one, but still).

You call it a lie, I call it a sensible change of plans. And a change of plans that I like a lot. In fact Star Citizen not having procedural planets originally was one of my problems with the game. That is something that certainly should be in a supposed Best Damn Space Sim Ever. Now that it is remedied, I am certainly OK with a reduced number of systems to compensate.

What I dont share is your fixation on them keeping every promise and every date. It seems like a nitpicking. As long as I get a great game in the end, I dont give a damn if they deliver it 5 years late and with some stretchgoals missing. What they need to do now is to demonstrate overall development progress with a 3.0 release. If they do that, my hype levels shall restore. If not, I shall become buttfrustrated. Things like number of systems and detailed kickstarter promises dont matter much.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2017, 02:26:56 am
What I dont share is your fixation on them keeping every promise and every date. It seems like a nitpicking. As long as I get a great game in the end, I dont give a damn if they deliver it 5 years late and with some stretchgoals missing. What they need to do now is to demonstrate overall development progress with a 3.0 release. If they do that, my hype levels shall restore. If not, I shall become buttfrustrated. Things like number of systems and detailed kickstarter promises dont matter much.
I've said it before, but I know skipping over parts of posts you can't respond to is something you can't help doing.

Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?


And again, how do you know that CIG won't cut something that you actually care about in the future?  Their word isn't good enough.  I knew they'd have to make cuts while you were still arguing that the scope of the game was perfectly achievable.  If CIG didn't know this, they're incompetent.  If they did, they continued saying the game would have 100 systems when they knew it wouldn't (and they're still doing it).  Either they lied or they're idiots.  Pick one.

How do you deal with the fact that the game CIG promised is almost certainly not going to be the game they deliver (if they deliver an actual game at all)?  And how long are you willing to make excuses for them?


The News is old with the 10 Systems.
Back in 2016 GamesCom Chris told that already to Jörg Langer, Founder of Gamestar and now Founder of Gamersglobal.de

http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/star-citizen-2016
I told that several times in the RSI Forum but no one believe it...

“Wir könnten also irgendwann nach Ende 2017 sagen: Wir haben jetzt genug Spiel drin, wir haben vielleicht zehn Sternensysteme fertig, und wir nennen das dann den Release von Star Citizen.” Die weiteren rund 90 Sonnensysteme würden dann nach und nach fertiggestellt, und natürlich auch weitere Inhalte und Features

"We can say sometime after 2017: We have enough game, we have maybe ten starsystems done and we call that Release of Star Citizen. The other about 90 Starsystems will be done after with of Course new Content.

That is a year ago...
Ok, and where's CIG announcing it to the community?  Why is this coming from a 3rd party when SC supposedly has the most open development ever (it doesn't).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 18, 2017, 03:18:44 am
Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?

It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.

And again, how do you know that CIG won't cut something that you actually care about in the future?  Their word isn't good enough.


Their word isnt good enough because scope of the game changed during development? I totally reject such conclusions. You see changing requirements/scope as some kind of a bad thing and treason on backers. I see it as a completely normal part of development, and to be expected. They may or may not change something I care about. I will adjust my opinion of the game when they do. Not before.

I knew they'd have to make cuts while you were still arguing that the scope of the game was perfectly achievable.  If CIG didn't know this, they're incompetent.  If they did, they continued saying the game would have 100 systems when they knew it wouldn't (and they're still doing it).  Either they lied or they're idiots.  Pick one.

100 systems was possibly achievable when they were a mere collection of fixed areas with autopilot paths in between. 100 systems is not achievable now. So they are neither liars nor idiots. As for 100 systems remaining on the website, again, nitpicking. They probably made that page long ago, copied some list of features from the kickstarter, and then forgot about maintaining every detailed line as they have hopefully better things to do. You see it as some kind of a legal contract where every mistake or inaccuracy is fatal, instead of a webpage of a game under development.

How do you deal with the fact that the game CIG promised is almost certainly not going to be the game they deliver (if they deliver an actual game at all)?  And how long are you willing to make excuses for them?

As long as the game overall is good, I deal with it by not giving a damn. As long as it wont be, I will then deal with it by proclaiming Roberts to be an incompetent developer. It is still too soon for that IMHO.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2017, 03:39:06 am
Again, missing a date isn't the problem.  Missing every date is.  And they have missed every date they ever set.  Just with 3.0, CR said, last year, that 3.0 would be released before the end of 2016.  Then he said it'd be released in July.  Now it's been pushed back to August.  At what point does it look like he's a competent manager?

It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.
  Did you even read the first sentence?  For the millionth time, missing a date isn't a problem.  Missing every date is.  Missing every date most certainly is extremely unusual in the industry, which you'd know if you knew anything about how successful games are made.

Quote
100 systems was possibly achievable when they were a mere collection of fixed areas with autopilot paths in between. 100 systems is not achievable now. So they are neither liars nor idiots. As for 100 systems remaining on the website, again, nitpicking. They probably made that page long ago, copied some list of features from the kickstarter, and then forgot about maintaining every detailed line as they have hopefully better things to do. You see it as some kind of a legal contract where every mistake or inaccuracy is fatal, instead of a webpage of a game under development.
  How much did the scope of the game change since 2015?  (https://youtu.be/VGTj2iWkS-8?t=499)  I say again, if CR thought 100 systems was achievable to SC's level of ~fidelity~ when this was filmed, he's a moron.  If he knew it couldn't be done, he's lying through his teeth.  Which is it?

Quote
As long as the game overall is good, I deal with it by not giving a damn. As long as it wont be, I will then deal with it by proclaiming Roberts to be an incompetent developer. It is still too soon for that IMHO.
The game overall isn't good though.  Even fanboys on reddit admit it's in an alpha state and isn't good atm.  It's a buggy mess with nothing to do.  I suspect you'll still insist it's a good game, perhaps echo some other deluded backers in saying it's better than most AAA games, because that tends to be citizen logic.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2017, 04:24:18 am
Aesaar, you're just insufficiently smart to understand gamedevelopment. Star Citizen can fail all dates because it's unique, it's special. Some would call it retarded but that's ableist wording as **** and we won't take that **** anymore in 2017.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 18, 2017, 05:15:00 am
Did you even read the first sentence?  For the millionth time, missing a date isn't a problem.  Missing every date is.  Missing every date most certainly is extremely unusual in the industry, which you'd know if you knew anything about how successful games are made.

OK, I partially agree with you here. SC development is late and delayed all the time and it does reflect bad on Chris competency. It wont matter at all if the game turns out to be good sometime in the future but it is a cause for concern right now.

How much did the scope of the game change since 2015?  (https://youtu.be/VGTj2iWkS-8?t=499)  I say again, if CR thought 100 systems was achievable to SC's level of ~fidelity~ when this was filmed, he's a moron.  If he knew it couldn't be done, he's lying through his teeth.  Which is it?

Video is from 2015, when procedural planets were still in infancy. So the scope probably changed a lot since then. This changing scope is actually an issue, because in hindsight Star Citizen should have gone straight for 64-bit coordinates and procedural planets from the very beginning, and maybe a custom engine. Many delays could have been avoided if that was the case, IMHO.

  The game overall isn't good though.  Even fanboys on reddit admit it's in an alpha state and isn't good atm.  It's a buggy mess with nothing to do.  I suspect you'll still insist it's a good game, perhaps echo some other deluded backers in saying it's better than most AAA games, because that tends to be citizen logic.

I meant in the future. Right now it is indeed only good as a glorified tech demo, not a game. Still better flight model than Elite, though  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on July 18, 2017, 05:31:49 am
(https://dto9r5vaiz7bu.cloudfront.net/ffr4o2ocr0ise/tavern_upload_large.png)

just the question - what 10 Systems are in the first release 1.0?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2017, 06:03:21 am
I kinda like how BioWare and CGI both realised planetrandombuilding ala NoMansSKy isn't as easy as they first thought.

I'm also pretty sure that once CRoberts saw Limit Theory's and NMS's trailers, his employees were all like "Oooooh boy we're totally ****ed now we have to build that **** too".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 18, 2017, 06:08:14 am
"Oooooh boy we're totally ****ed now we have to build that **** too".

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually operate like that. New space game comes out with some new mechanic, CIG wants to join the cool club and have all those mechanics too.
Almost exactly like Duke Nukem Forever.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2017, 06:58:31 am
It does point to a certain incompetency. On the other hand, missing dates is nothing unusual in game industry, especially for such complex games, and as I said, it is the end result that counts and not delays. So it is a cause for concern, but not as fatal as you think it is.
Have you considered the possibility that you don't understand game development?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 18, 2017, 07:26:48 am
If a game misses one milestone, that's not too bad. Things can happen that'll delay other stages of production, not a big deal.
If a game misses every milestone, a publisher would be fully within their rights to cancel production (This is something Derek Smart can tell you about).

If a game misses every single milestone set by themselves in the absence of a publisher, it calls into question their basic ability to estimate the size of the project and the capabilities of the staff.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2017, 07:36:40 am
But it's not just missing every deadline ever, it's just being blatant liars about it. Deliberately deceitful.
There is no way that Croberts didn't know that 3.0 wasn't even close to being finished when he rambled about it on his last two conventions. There is no way that he wasn't aware that sq42 is no where close to being playable, yet he gives impossible date after date.
You're not going to convince me that it's just plain bumbling incompetence at this point anymore. They know they're hosed, and they're just employing every scumy tactic in the book, to avoid losing the hook they have in the mouth of the whales.
Because if it was honest, fair and open development, last gamescom/citizencon he would have come onto stage and told everyone the plain and simple truth, sq42 is still a far way off to seeing any kind of release. Instead croberts choose to tell bogus. Promising yet another december deadline, that they will then quietly pass by.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 18, 2017, 08:14:43 am
Yep. Them missing every deadline and being incompetent is the charitable interpretation of events. Let that sink in.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2017, 09:09:49 am
I actually believe in the charitable interpretation. CRoberts strikes me as a pretentious over-ambitious guy who really wants to create this hypermegagame that no one else could ever do, not the kind of guy who is really *just* scamming people out of their money so his wife can pretend to be a hollywood star or whatever. It could be like 70% of the former, a small 30% of the latter? Because hey, money is good. Money is nice.

I wish I had money.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 18, 2017, 09:16:02 am
I also think it's incompetence, due to the detailed stories that have come out from ex-employees. They are trying to build the house on sand.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2017, 09:40:32 am
Yes yes, croberts is very molyneux in his ambitions and lofty dreams&promises. I don't doubt he doesn't have malice intent, but come on guys. At what point does that stop being a valid defense? How many more years of broken promises, missed deadlines, and blatant lies have to follow before it stops being 'just' incompetence?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 18, 2017, 09:42:29 am
How does incompetence stop being incompetence and turn into something else? It just gets more incompetent.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2017, 10:28:12 am
Yes yes, croberts is very molyneux in his ambitions and lofty dreams&promises. I don't doubt he doesn't have malice intent, but come on guys. At what point does that stop being a valid defense? How many more years of broken promises, missed deadlines, and blatant lies have to follow before it stops being 'just' incompetence?

I'm sorry Spoon, did you really mistook my comment as a defence of Chris Roberts?

...


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2017, 10:48:37 am
Surely not  :p :lol:

I was just arguing against the charitable interpretation, which I feel at this point is becoming too charitable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2017, 11:07:46 am
I think the reason Croberts keeps going is that he's in way too deep for a clean break and doesn't know how to get off the tiger he's created.  And, well, these idiots keep giving him money and making excuses for him every time he ****s up.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 18, 2017, 11:18:03 am
Duke Nukem Forever took fifteen years to develop, and it came out just fine.  Getting stuck in development hell forever and ever is a good thing!  It's a good thing!  My twenty-zillion-dollar pledge is being well spent!  The Space Winnebago is the best investment I've ever made, and the children whose kidneys I sold to fund that investment would surely agree, if they weren't stuck at the dialysis clinic at the moment, for reasons entirely unrelated to Space Winnebagos.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2017, 11:37:24 am
I think the reason Croberts keeps going is that he's in way too deep for a clean break and doesn't know how to get off the tiger he's created.  And, well, these idiots keep giving him money and making excuses for him every time he ****s up.

There's another argument to make regarding the "charitable defense" (Let's officialize it, call it the CD). If the point was to "get off the tiger" with some extra money, wouldn't it have been easier to just try to ship the best game they could pull off with a lot less ambition? Instead, they keep burying their heads into this dream they're selling, making their own lives miserable and stressful, all trying to pull off what Roberts is trying to achieve.

If the point was to do a con, it seems like the worst con ever imaginable. There's only stress, a gargantuan effort to build teams and finantial management to go along with it, and no exit strategy at all. I mean, they have to pay their wages and actually deliver something in the end. They can't just wave this like "Next Summer it will be Awesome" as if they're not bleeding money every single year by the dozens of millions. At one point, the **** is going to eventually hit the fan. Then what? On what hole will they be hiding in their lives forever? If Sean Murray became such a four letter name by this point, and the guy actually shipped a ****ing game on time, imagine a game never being delivered despite people having spent tens of thousands of dollars on it!

This is why I fall back on utter incompetency coupled with unstoppable ambition, without no one being able to tell the man "This is too much man". The alternative is just incredibly worse in terms of stupidity and idiocy! There are so much smarter and less stressful ways to take people's money! (Hey, I remember one, just develop what the game was supposed to be about in the first place!!!!!! PROFIT!!!!)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 18, 2017, 12:51:51 pm
An interesting take on it, Luis.

Quote
If the point was to "get off the tiger" with some extra money, wouldn't it have been easier to just try to ship the best game they could pull off with a lot less ambition?

If they had wanted to get off the tiger then wouldn't it have been simpler and easier to release an MVP, however crappy, rather than "the best game they could"? I don't think that would be considered a con so much as simply admitting their own inability to deliver.

I think it's all too clear that Star Citizen is Too Big To Fail, in all likelihood they will find a way to release something eventually or at worst appeal to a publisher/investor to step in.

However, I'd be interested in knowing the legal consequences in the unlikely event they decided to call it quits. Other than the stigma, what's stopping CIG from simply calling their buggy Alpha "finished" at some arbitrary point and kicking their feet up? Kickstarter and Early Access are both in a somewhat legal grey area are they not?

On that point, what consumer rights, if any, can ****izens rely upon to ensure the game is released within some sort of reasonable (LOL) timeframe?

(Apologies if this has already been covered, I really cba going through 100+ pages to check.)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 18, 2017, 01:25:54 pm
On that point, what consumer rights, if any, can ****izens rely upon to ensure the game is released within some sort of reasonable (LOL) timeframe?

None whatsoever. Kickstarter doesn't guarantee that a project will be completed, and CIG's standard EULA contains boilerplate that basically absolves them of liability should their ambition exceed their grasp.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 18, 2017, 01:31:21 pm
I also disagree with the charitable interpretation that CIG is simply so incompetent that they keep setting and missing their own deadlines, nobody is that stupid, at this point it's just deception. I think they're setting those deadlines to please the fanbase and get more funding and missing them because they're incompetent. But the important part is that they're most likely fully aware that they'll miss almost every deadline they set.
Now I don't think their endgoal is just to make a quick buck, there are millions of better ways to do that, many of which have already been pointed out. I think Croberts is so far up his own ass that he delusionally believes it's okay to lie and deceive people for a chance to make his hypergame, he might genuinely believe that with more time and money SC might turn out fine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 18, 2017, 02:20:16 pm
"Oooooh boy we're totally ****ed now we have to build that **** too".

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually operate like that. New space game comes out with some new mechanic, CIG wants to join the cool club and have all those mechanics too.
Almost exactly like Duke Nukem Forever.

They released their procedural planets demo literally the day after Elite Dangerous: Horizons came out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 18, 2017, 04:41:25 pm
Quick, tell them about the Zed Prime :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2017, 09:33:24 pm
They released their procedural planets demo literally the day after Elite Dangerous: Horizons came out.
 
Which was quickly followed by cries of "Checkmate, ED", because in the world of Star Citizen, teasing planetary landings is way more of an achievement than releasing planetary landings.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 19, 2017, 07:42:33 am
I kinda like how BioWare and CGI both realised planetrandombuilding ala NoMansSKy isn't as easy as they first thought.

It is easy to make a playable procedural planet demo with realistic sized planets. I know because I coded one for fun and I am a ****ty coder indeed. What is hard is to make it look like Crysis and fill it with content. Originally, CIG was only supposed to "research procedural planets" for future implementation. The research team very quickly created the basic playable technology, Chris saw it and got all giddy and turned the entire direction of the game from walled areas into procedural seamless universe. Then it turned out that actually filling such vast universe with content is hard and thus they had to reduce number of systems.

At least that is my theory.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 19, 2017, 08:05:42 am
I kinda like how BioWare and CGI both realised planetrandombuilding ala NoMansSKy isn't as easy as they first thought.

It is easy to make a playable procedural planet demo with realistic sized planets. I know because I coded one for fun and I am a ****ty coder indeed. What is hard is to make it look like Crysis and fill it with content. Originally, CIG was only supposed to "research procedural planets" for future implementation. The research team very quickly created the basic playable technology, Chris saw it and got all giddy and turned the entire direction of the game from walled areas into procedural seamless universe. Then it turned out that actually filling such vast universe with content is hard and thus they had to reduce number of systems.

At least that is my theory.

They won't even fill 10 systems, probably not even one properly. So what we ll be stuck with - if the game releases at all - is randomized planets with handcrafted "hot spots" like in all other procedural games.

And that again goes directly against their promise of high quality hand crafted content from ..... uh well, long ago?


Nevermind, just one more promise they probably don't even remember anymore.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 19, 2017, 11:31:09 am
Yeah, the notion that CIG is going to be any more successful than Frontier at filling literally millions of square kilometers with interesting content is absolutely ludicrous.  And that's just one planet.

SC's planets are going to be as barren and empty as ED's.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 19, 2017, 11:40:17 am
Yeah, the notion that CIG is going to be any more successful than Frontier at filling literally millions of square kilometers with interesting content is absolutely ludicrous.  And that's just one planet.

SC's planets are going to be as barren and empty as ED's.
And at least ED's already come out in a playable form and the flight model and controls made some sort of sense from the beginning instead of going through countless ****ty iterations with real aircraft flightsim elements put in for *reasons*.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 19, 2017, 12:05:33 pm
Oh come on it's obvious that all these planets will have entire cities and villages and megacities, as their lore is supposed to tell us, filled with agrarian machinery, traffic jams and yatches circling around lush landscapes. I mean, it would be really stupid to give us full blown planets that are supposed to have billions of people and then not finding almost no one around, right? I mean, that would be really really stupid, so I'm pretty sure it won't happen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 19, 2017, 12:11:55 pm
Do you think they could have done both? Have nearly all the systems be as they originally were going to be and have a small number as like premium systems. I'm thinking along roughly the same lines as the premium cars in Gran Turismo. Make sure you have enough content to justify those planets being there. As time goes on after release, more systems become premium systems and you don't have to break your promise.

You could also have procedural planets in all systems like in ED prior to Horizons. And potentially do things like when you want to land on that planet you get taken to an area that's like one spaceport or settlement or whatever, that you can fly around freely but is only like a level from a typical videogame.

Of course, I'm sure there will be plenty of planets which are just barren or have just an outpost or two on the surface, like the ones in ED, and those you could fly around the whole surface as well.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 19, 2017, 12:55:35 pm
There's a damned good reason why ED chose to basically do this kind of tech with moons, rather than full blown populated planets.

But I guess Roberts really wants to do this ****.

(http://media.gamersnexus.net/images/media/2016/games/star-citizen/office/star-citizen-ppi-2.jpg)
(http://media.gamersnexus.net/images/media/2016/games/star-citizen/office/star-citizen-ppi-3.jpg)

Those are nice jpegs.

Wonder if you could, rather than sell ships, sell cities.... hmmmm.... I mean, they would have to be a lil more expensive, right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2017, 02:03:54 pm
Do you think they could have done both? Have nearly all the systems be as they originally were going to be and have a small number as like premium systems. I'm thinking along roughly the same lines as the premium cars in Gran Turismo. Make sure you have enough content to justify those planets being there. As time goes on after release, more systems become premium systems and you don't have to break your promise.

You could also have procedural planets in all systems like in ED prior to Horizons. And potentially do things like when you want to land on that planet you get taken to an area that's like one spaceport or settlement or whatever, that you can fly around freely but is only like a level from a typical videogame.

Of course, I'm sure there will be plenty of planets which are just barren or have just an outpost or two on the surface, like the ones in ED, and those you could fly around the whole surface as well.
Perhaps, possibly
If it was done by a different company, and it wasn't aiming for maximum fidelity.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 19, 2017, 03:18:29 pm
There's a damned good reason why ED chose to basically do this kind of tech with moons, rather than full blown populated planets.

But I guess Roberts really wants to do this ****.

(http://media.gamersnexus.net/images/media/2016/games/star-citizen/office/star-citizen-ppi-2.jpg)
(http://media.gamersnexus.net/images/media/2016/games/star-citizen/office/star-citizen-ppi-3.jpg)

Those are nice jpegs.

Wonder if you could, rather than sell ships, sell cities.... hmmmm.... I mean, they would have to be a lil more expensive, right?

That's four grand worth of jpeg right there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 19, 2017, 04:52:52 pm
People pay that much for a compressed image?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 20, 2017, 12:31:34 am
****izens do.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 20, 2017, 04:43:39 am
People pay that much for a compressed image?

Hey hey, let's not undersell the quality of the algorithm compression here. Top tier gamedevelopment algorithmic quality we're selling here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on July 20, 2017, 05:11:03 am
People pay that much for a compressed image?

They could make a limited uncompressed TIFF-Edition and double the price.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on July 20, 2017, 11:54:35 pm
240k yesterday for CIG - seeling the Buggy. And this was the Game changer - a AA Variant. Warbond Sale not for store credits yet.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16014-Behold-The-Cyclone
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/n6535dpiwv2pgr/source/Tumbril-Buggy-Piece-06-Lagoon-V011.jpg
Pic of the turret variant - right one and comparison to the Ursa
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/imager/EKQpqYsX4_nME65yIPAmYATfnak=/fit-in/1680x1050/http://i.imgur.com/3Y5JXf3.jpg
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 21, 2017, 12:28:41 am
I blame master chiefs warthog for all the car stuff.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 21, 2017, 02:23:17 am
I like how, in spite of apparently having all this planet generation tech developed, they still need to Archer a picture of Milford Sound for their promotional pictures of the badly-designed dune buggy. 

(http://i.imgur.com/jETeH3z.jpg)

It's like CR looked at the Warthog and said "make this except dumber".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on July 21, 2017, 06:24:02 am
It looks like a puma to me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 21, 2017, 07:33:11 am
I find it hilarious that with this sale (and the recent ones with space bikes) and the planetary outpost stuff, they are pushing towards combined arms warfare on planets.... without having the basic spaceship gameplay implemented.

FFS, they can't even keep the spacemans from clipping out of the space chariots when everything is static, and they want to do complex space/air/ground combat?!?

I pity the CIG code monkeys.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 21, 2017, 08:14:47 am
$48 for a glorified wheeled delivery vehicle. In a universe where you'll mostly be behind the flight stick of a spaceship. You wanna put some weapons on that delivery buggy? Well, you can, but you've got to pay $276 for the whole package.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Ghostavo on July 21, 2017, 08:55:44 am
I find it hilarious that with this sale (and the recent ones with space bikes) and the planetary outpost stuff, they are pushing towards combined arms warfare on planets.... without having the basic spaceship gameplay implemented.

FFS, they can't even keep the spacemans from clipping out of the space chariots when everything is static, and they want to do complex space/air/ground combat?!?

I pity the CIG code monkeys.

Imagine how their junior requirements engineers must be feeling, if there are any.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2017, 09:09:15 am
$48 for a glorified wheeled delivery vehicle. In a universe where you'll mostly be behind the flight stick of a spaceship. You wanna put some weapons on that delivery buggy? Well, you can, but you've got to pay $276 for the whole package.

I bought several AAA games for half that price.

Heck, I bought the entire ME trilogy for 15 bucks for a birthday present, that's less than a third.

But hey, I guess it has a non-trivial number of polygons.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 21, 2017, 12:09:15 pm
I bought several AAA games for half that price.

The most amusing threads on the SC forums were always the ones were people debated whether putting 2000-3000$ into a new rig now would be a wise move or whether buying 2000-3000$ jpg Space Ships first and waiting 1-2 years until SC releases (yes! :lol:) with final system requirements, before buying the new rig, would be better.  :lol: :banghead: :nod:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Bryan See on July 21, 2017, 12:29:06 pm
I'm sure in the near future they'll use 3D printing to print rigs, thereby reducing costs. But I still have doubt on whether they had the right money to purchase such equipment...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 24, 2017, 10:42:53 am
$48 for a glorified wheeled delivery vehicle. In a universe where you'll mostly be behind the flight stick of a spaceship. You wanna put some weapons on that delivery buggy? Well, you can, but you've got to pay $276 for the whole package.

I bought several AAA games for half that price.

Heck, I bought the entire ME trilogy for 15 bucks for a birthday present, that's less than a third.

But hey, I guess it has a non-trivial number of polygons.

Which also means a non-trivial number of emotions, I imagine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on July 24, 2017, 12:16:32 pm
We're only at a 5% efficiency rate of polygons to emotions. We need to physically model individual pores to finally reach the emotional depths needed to express the glory that is Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 24, 2017, 12:58:36 pm
We're only at a 5% efficiency rate of polygons to emotions. We need to physically model individual pores to finally reach the emotional depths needed to express the glory that is Star Citizen.

Is this fidelity, high end graphics and millions of polygons any good when there is no sense of smell at all?
That's an entire sense that has been totally neglected so far!

SC should team up with Creative immediately and develop a "Smell Blaster" PCI-Express card!!!

My immersion is ruined if they don't!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on July 24, 2017, 02:05:54 pm
We're only at a 5% efficiency rate of polygons to emotions. We need to physically model individual pores to finally reach the emotional depths needed to express the glory that is Star Citizen.

On the topic of emotions, does that mean if you pay enough to CR, you could marry a woman in SC? :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 24, 2017, 02:09:37 pm
We're only at a 5% efficiency rate of polygons to emotions. We need to physically model individual pores to finally reach the emotional depths needed to express the glory that is Star Citizen.

On the topic of emotions, does that mean if you pay enough to CR, you could marry a woman in SC? :p

He sells those JPGs on a different website.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 24, 2017, 03:32:01 pm
Only if you are into ~tickling~
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 24, 2017, 03:43:03 pm

We're only at a 5% efficiency rate of polygons to emotions. We need to physically model individual pores to finally reach the emotional depths needed to express the glory that is Star Citizen.

On the topic of emotions, does that mean if you pay enough to CR, you could marry a woman in SC? :p

He sells those JPGs on a different website.

You could make pictures with Sandy at Gamescom... yeah that happened. ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 26, 2017, 04:07:08 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/vgceH1v.png)

https://i.imgur.com/bDmVhp2.mp4
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 28, 2017, 08:59:55 am
(https://i.redd.it/qwevbis3r8cz.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 28, 2017, 09:01:24 am
the new dead space is coming along nicely
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 28, 2017, 09:41:11 am
Star Citizen really does have the best bugs.

the new dead space is coming along nicely
:D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 28, 2017, 09:45:04 am
the new dead space is coming along nicely

Nah, this is clearly one of the phantoms from Prey 2

(Prey is rad)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on July 30, 2017, 02:02:11 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/wFy2FVq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AJ6Qgkb.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/f86rb7n.jpg)

The Star citizen reddit is a fun place nowadays.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 31, 2017, 06:27:18 am
Even the twitch dudes are getting depressed, Twerk does not like the news that SC will have 5-10 star systems at launch:  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=20m15s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=20m15s)

e: Faith is crumbling: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=01h09m50s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=01h09m50s)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 31, 2017, 08:31:06 am
I'm amazed they even have any% of faith left, at this stage.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 01, 2017, 01:54:59 pm
the new dead space is coming along nicely

XD Quality mocapping right there!

=====================================================

I'm reminded of MWO and the drama that unfolded around that game, which led to the alienation of most of the community. The devs there did far less to antagonise the community than CIG have, yet they suffered a greater fallout. I think partly it was because MWO was already a working game, with features being added (coolshot) that would make it P2W, which the backers picked up on and created push-back.

Star Citizen on the otherhand, is such a buggy mess and the features for it are so ill-defined, that the backers can't grasp what it is or what it is going to be and do not know what to expect. I know this point has been done to death, but so much of the promise of Star Citizen is based on what backers hope it will be rather than what it is or what it realistically could be.

I still find it shocking that CIG have created a situation where it is in their best interests to be incredibly vague and to delay any kind of release for as long as possible. It makes business sense for them to continue on as the QVC for Video Games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 01, 2017, 02:18:31 pm
Even the twitch dudes are getting depressed, Twerk does not like the news that SC will have 5-10 star systems at launch:  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=20m15s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=20m15s)

e: Faith is crumbling: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=01h09m50s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160825392?t=01h09m50s)

Chat comment:
Quote
There is a strong possibility we could visit some of these planets in real life before in game
:D :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 01, 2017, 03:01:05 pm
Say what you will about MWO, at least the game exists and has some fun bits.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 01, 2017, 03:23:54 pm
I spent most of my time in MWO in the semi-open and open betas. I'd already had my fun by the time they failed to deliver on community warfare and started doing the P2W stuff. it had a lot of potential but the game was in beta for so long and the campaign had so many missed deadlines anything they did after a certain point was just generating more ire. Plus you have the table top fans breathing down your neck about how **** like LRMs and standard lasers are supposed to work.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 02, 2017, 08:40:01 am
This guy's analogy is utterly hilarious: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6bhlnv/can_someone_explain_to_me_why_you_care_when_s42/dhmse95/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 02, 2017, 09:45:48 am
This guy's analogy is utterly hilarious: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6bhlnv/can_someone_explain_to_me_why_you_care_when_s42/dhmse95/
Like, that is sooooooo nine pages ago! :)

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1848359#msg1848359
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 02, 2017, 02:03:16 pm
It's still amazing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 02, 2017, 04:37:22 pm
Great, now I am hungry ... again :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 02, 2017, 05:24:27 pm
That post should be put into the Library of Congress.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 02, 2017, 05:40:04 pm
That post should be put into the Library of Congress.

HLP, we have a mission:  Get Trump to tweet a link to this thread.  It will have to be archived as a public communication from the White House.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 03, 2017, 11:18:20 am
Say what you will about MWO, at least the game exists and has some fun bits.

Agreed and despite its' flaws I still enjoy it every now and then. The singleplayer derivative looks like it might be half-decent too.

That post should be put into the Library of Congress.

HLP, we have a mission:  Get Trump to tweet a link to this thread.  It will have to be archived as a public communication from the White House.

Bonus points for sneaking in Star Trek 6 reference!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 03, 2017, 06:14:56 pm
WTFO is questioning some of his recent life decisions (watch from 15:00 ) and starts getting emotional at 22:00

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 03, 2017, 06:34:31 pm
 :sigh:
It took him this long to realize it

I feel grief for him
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 03, 2017, 06:39:21 pm
He's all broken up about not being able to do a charity stream....  Maybe he should get a refund and donate it to charity, instead of being a sanctimonious asshat.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 03, 2017, 08:37:27 pm
WTFosaurus is a piece of ****.  Also a drunk grabber of women. (hope the paywall isn't back up) (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3773270&pagenumber=5#post467914548)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 04, 2017, 12:22:07 am
WTFO is questioning some of his recent life decisions (watch from 15:00 ) and starts getting emotional at 22:00


... honestly, this is hilarious
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 04, 2017, 12:37:23 am
I might have had my life inexorably altered by a game (thanks  :v-old:) but I can't imagine having thrown my lot in with a company this badly (okay maybe Google with trying the Youtube thing) and then saying that if that company doesn't deliver my life as I know it is over.

Also, the writing's been on the wall since they started blowing up the scope. I mean even as a freshman in college I understood game development enough to notice something was off. But hey, I got a refund who am I to judge someone who is putting blind faith in something that has barely moved in 4 years.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 04, 2017, 01:37:08 am
WTFO is questioning some of his recent life decisions (watch from 15:00 ) and starts getting emotional at 22:00


... honestly, this is hilarious

It's like the typical MMO enthusiasm to burnout phase distilled into a game that isn't even out yet. Except worse! When people are done with an MMO they usually just start to play another one theiy perceive as "better", one that "fixes all the issue" of  the one they quit ... but this ... by definition there isn't supposed to be anything better than SC ever ...  :nervous:

CR created a whole new stage of burnout.

Seriously  ... one might start to worry that if/when Star Citizen finally goes down ... or worse (?) releases and sucks as now expected, it may literally mean the end of some peoples lifes.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 04, 2017, 02:04:05 am
You do have to wonder what will happen to the most devoted of the fans. It is pretty soul-crushing to have spent so much time, effort and money on something only to see it fail through no fault of your own.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 04, 2017, 02:27:43 am
While Mass Effect 3 isn't a perfect comparison I think something akin to the retake Mass Effect campaign would be a real possibility if Star Citizen becomes a real failure. Either that or it's abandoned outright because of how painful the whole thing was.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 04, 2017, 07:52:32 am
WTFosaurus is a piece of ****.  Also a drunk grabber of women. (hope the paywall isn't back up) (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3773270&pagenumber=5#post467914548)
The wall is down.

(http://i.imgur.com/QQHRfGs.gif)

This gif looks like something out of some slapstick comedy or something...

You do have to wonder what will happen to the most devoted of the fans. It is pretty soul-crushing to have spent so much time, effort and money on something only to see it fail through no fault of your own.

It genuinely worries me. I don't understand this strange devotion they have, and I don't know what the fallout will be. People joke about it but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there are suicides. These people brought space games back. They showed the World that there's a market for them. They don't deserve this. Hopefully Star Citizen eventually succeeds or failing that that there's enough of them and enough strength in their community to support each other through it. And then ideally someone capable will come in and buy up CIG's assets and get the job done. Maybe it won't be THE BEST DAMN SPACE GAME EVER but hopefully it will be something well worth playing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 04, 2017, 10:45:28 am
"I can't play 8 hours a day of Star Citizen anymore"

Just nuke the planet. It ain't worth to save it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 04, 2017, 10:57:15 am
Btw, I thought it interesting that he said he had 2,000 Steam games (:eek2:), and he doesn't want to play any of them. What on Earth is so special about Star Citizen? Though he did specify he wants an MMO where he gets to start out from the beginning with all the other players and there aren't any others that interest him. So I suppose he wants to dedicate himself entirely to one single game, one MMO.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 04, 2017, 11:57:29 am
"I can't play 8 hours a day of Star Citizen anymore"

Just nuke the planet. It ain't worth to save it.

The Emoji Movie was proof enough alone of that, this is just corroboration.

Also, sorry for the re-post of the reddit pizza topic; I don't follow this thread all that closely so I missed it before.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 04, 2017, 12:03:40 pm
Aside from WTFOs meltdown, I'm genuinely surprised that CIG is delaying 3.0 past GamesCom.

I was pretty sure they would squeeze out something with the 3.0 label slapped on it, just to keep up the appearance of progress. Because I think in between coke sessions the Crobbler must realize that it will be embarrassing as **** for him... going up on that stage again, where he showed of the almost finished 3.0 one year ago, and it's still not released and he can only present flashy videos and fake demos again.

I'm looking forward to that train wreck of a presentation (according to the SA thread they will showcase some SQ42 things instead, new GIF material incoming, yay!)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 04, 2017, 12:51:25 pm
I think given how rabidly devoted people are they at least think they can get away with it. Considering the apathetic people like me either left or didn't invest much anyways, they seem to be betting that the whales will tow the line (and why wouldn't they make that bet?). If miss-management hasn't effected their bottom line much why bother fixing anything? Why bother even pretending if you can expend fewer resources and less energy and still have the same income and devotees?

I've never heard of WTFO but this might be an alarm bell for CIG. Who knows though, the last 4 years of development are what they are.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Ghostavo on August 06, 2017, 09:03:33 am
I wish I was able to do this at work. Anyone know if CIG is hiring? (https://twitter.com/commando_tom/status/894171261076680705)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 06, 2017, 09:20:23 am
You spin me right round
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 06, 2017, 10:47:25 am
I'm disappointed they didn't add the tune.

EDIT: Come to think of it, they probably just objected to having "All I know is that to me, you look like you're lots of fun." anywhere near Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 06, 2017, 12:29:49 pm
You spin me right round
Just another thing in a long, long list of things that they've put a spin on.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on August 06, 2017, 12:35:54 pm
I am still unreasonably proud of this thread title.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 06, 2017, 05:33:32 pm
I am still unreasonably proud of this thread title.

You fooled me with it too, it is a really good one.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 06, 2017, 06:56:50 pm
I am still unreasonably proud of this thread title.

This thread's title is the stuff of legends.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 07, 2017, 02:47:14 am
I am still unreasonably proud of this thread title.

This thread's title is the stuff of legends.

The gift that keeps on giving!  :lol: :nod:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 10, 2017, 06:43:04 pm
You spin me right round

Fly her apart then!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 19, 2017, 01:18:40 pm
Behold the next Gamescom JPG sale is announced for 400hundreds of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ !!! Buy quickly or you will never be able to get this ship with LTI again ... unless you use one of the countless official loopholes like ship upgrades that is! Get the JPG while it's hot! Who cares about playable games anyways!  :nod:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 19, 2017, 01:33:36 pm
I hope 3.0 will release soon, it will blow all these naysayers away!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 19, 2017, 01:45:49 pm
I hope 3.0 will release soon, it will blow all these naysayers away!

Who cares about 3.0! We'll get another concept JPG that will blow many of the previous concept JPGs out of the water and because it's for funding the game it's not even Pay to Win!

And to the naysayers! No it will never be pay to win ... how could it ever be pay to win if the game never releases and hence you can't "win"? Think about it. Also, they will never have to worry about bad reviews (paid for by the evil publishers) that way! Best Damn Space Sim forever!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 23, 2017, 06:59:17 am
The Gamescom streaming hast started: https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen (https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen)

Get ready for some hot pre-pre-3.0-alpha action. Including lots of things glitching out and the server resetting every 15minutes (if it doesn't crash before that)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 23, 2017, 07:32:49 am
Tuned in, first thing they're talking about are melee takedowns and melee weapons. Guess someone at CIG saw the new trailer for Mount and Blade Bannerlord.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 23, 2017, 08:38:32 am
 CR sees something cool in another game's gameplay (the **** is gameplay?) video
 CR immediately demands this **** be put in Star Citizen
 No it doesn't matter that there's no game yet, put this feature in
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 23, 2017, 12:51:34 pm
duruk smurt darak smart DEREK SMERT

http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=76.msg2957#msg2957
has links to clips of the starcitizen stream, showing the janky bugs we've come to expect from this slowmotion trainwreck
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 23, 2017, 01:01:09 pm
Tuned in, first thing they're talking about are melee takedowns and melee weapons. Guess someone at CIG saw the new trailer for Mount and Blade Bannerlord.

Battlefield 3 had those melee takedowns already mind you. BF4 expanded upon them, and then BF1 actually toned them down because it got a bit excessive :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 23, 2017, 01:03:41 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/D1gFnaQ.gif)

is good gif
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 23, 2017, 01:10:48 pm
That gif really represents starcitizen so well. a lot of flailing around, while going absolutely nowhere.
Also absolutely devoid of color, the only thing you see is grey and brown.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 23, 2017, 01:35:43 pm
I don't know what we're defining as melee takedowns but Halo Reach had assassinations back in 2010 and Titanfall used very similar animation system. There are probably even earlier examples but I'm lazy. Is CR that behind the times that he's only now discovering FPS melee takedowns?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 23, 2017, 01:44:33 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 24, 2017, 11:27:43 am
CR isn't a gamer and probably thinks his ideas are as fresh today as they were in 1995.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 24, 2017, 12:13:01 pm
If he wanted to come back to the industry you'd think he'd pay a little attention to what's been going on.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 24, 2017, 02:38:15 pm
If he wanted to come back to the industry you'd think he'd pay a little attention to what's been going on.
lol
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 24, 2017, 02:38:39 pm
You'd think a lot of things with chris roberts
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 24, 2017, 02:42:02 pm
parp
(http://i.imgur.com/zvBcstj.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUHUW_magpU&feature=youtu.be&t=11265
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUHUW_magpU&feature=youtu.be&t=11765

no sq42 this year either
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 24, 2017, 03:17:06 pm
I haven't played Infinite War but a goddamn FPS studio was able to get some semblance of a space combat game out in ~2 years and it looked good if nothing else. I don't know enough of House of the Dying Sun's development history other than its name change from a while ago but it was a handful of people and it got a release.

I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore but the depths of depravity on display here is absurd. ****ing Ninja Theory made a fantastic and gorgeous looking ~8 hour game loaded with cutscenes and requiring tons of research and care and they self published it and here CRoberts is unable to make a follow up to Wing Commander even.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 24, 2017, 03:19:10 pm
Hell with a team of 6 people and 2 voice actors I managed to release a game in 9 months as part of my senior year of college. The game has its fair share of design issues and looks like a student project but it's complete, working, and reasonably stable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 24, 2017, 03:34:16 pm
If you ate $150 million worth of food, how big a pile of **** would you produce?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 24, 2017, 03:58:14 pm
That made me laugh way too hard. I'd probably be dead if I ate $150 million in food even in the amount of time CRoberts has been in development. It's a miracle he's alive at this point and he's not decomposing on the **** pile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 24, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
Hell with a team of 6 people and 2 voice actors I managed to release a game in 9 months as part of my senior year of college. The game has its fair share of design issues and looks like a student project but it's complete, working, and reasonably stable.


Linky?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 24, 2017, 04:46:08 pm
I vaguely remember posting a link a year ago but here it is again:

https://inure.itch.io/inure (https://inure.itch.io/inure)

I'll warn you that we never ironed out all the performance issues because of how many projectiles the game uses. Also let me know if you get stuck with the tutorial. We didn't have enough time to do many revisions so actually getting into the rest of the game is really poorly explained. Hope it's not too unplayable!

Also I don't know what OS you're on but there's a mouse scaling bug with the Mac version and I don't know if the same bug is in the Linux version (thanks Unity).

One last thing, there are no loading screens (ie the game acts like Freespace when navigating the main menu). Once you get past the splash screen the game will take a while to load the menu. I can spin you quite the story about why that is if you want.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 25, 2017, 06:21:14 am
A gold nugget from the massive stream of posts that is the SA thread:

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 25, 2017, 04:04:28 pm
Gamescom live stream 3.0 presentation is a total disaster, what a meltdown
(http://i.imgur.com/HU51K9Y.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 25, 2017, 04:53:41 pm
My sides hurt from laughing. First the thing crashes in the middle of the presentation, and now their little buggy clipped through the ramp and all wheels fell off. It's a perfect analogy of the whole project.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 25, 2017, 05:29:43 pm
Quite.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on August 25, 2017, 08:39:11 pm
That, uh. Livestream (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334302925981745154/350797761408532481/mqLvnc1.gif), um, was a THING. But you, uh, know actually, that, er, livestreams. They don't always go, you know, the way that you might like, but uh, you could see they tried, and uh, that was, er...

*Twisty hands*

But its all pre-alpha, and uh you know, you just expect, er, those things to happens. I think that three-one will be a lot more, rock stable you might say, and really, uh, that's our ah, goal.

*Sits down in a chair*

*Chair crashes*

*Fires Paul*

~Rest In Peace~
Melissa
Crushed by a ramp
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 25, 2017, 11:03:29 pm
My sides hurt from laughing. First the thing crashes in the middle of the presentation, and now their little buggy clipped through the ramp and all wheels fell off. It's a perfect analogy of the whole project.

Got a link to the highlights? I don't want to sit through all the waffle.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 26, 2017, 01:57:00 am
My sides hurt from laughing. First the thing crashes in the middle of the presentation, and now their little buggy clipped through the ramp and all wheels fell off. It's a perfect analogy of the whole project.

Got a link to the highlights? I don't want to sit through all the waffle.

Copy/pasted from SA:


BYE MOON!: https://clips.twitch.tv/HorribleThankfulElkBrainSlug
STAR CITIZEN IS NOT RESPONDING: https://clips.twitch.tv/StormyObservantBeeM4xHeh
PUT HER DOWN: https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyRichOrangeBloodTrail

RAMP FAIL:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentDreamyEchidnaJonCarnage

As a bonus, here's Chris yelling not to show the loading screen: https://clips.twitch.tv/SoftDeterminedRaisinPupper

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 26, 2017, 02:37:33 am
Here's a summary from a brave SA commando who sat through the whole thing:


* Began with a 45min delay + 3 or 4 commercials for chariots
* New features (facial recognition, voice stuff) introduced then promptly revealed to be coming after 3.0, not with it
* After warping to the quest destination, the pilot's client crashed. The other two players were still in the ship but couldn't interact with it
* After 10 minutes of awkward troubleshooting they eventually had to restart. Cue another 15-20 minutes of mostly silence and long shots of a black room and an increasingly angry Chris as the demo is rebooted
* Because the demo was nearly 100% scripted, they had to do everything all over again leading up to the warp crash
* this included the world's worst RP of all time. yes, they still repeated the RP in the 2nd attempt
* They get to the planet. it's janky. a ton of pop-in and missing models. We all begin to notice that the lighting / colors for each player (they keep switching cameras) is completely different. It's suggested that even the time of day for players is different
* They find the quest object - a ship's black box which turned out to be a red cube that was just laying in a random spot on the floor
* Then they were ambushed, surprising nobody
* They shot the bad guy's ship out of the air from their moon rover, but they clearly weren't even aiming at the guy and it was a really embarrassing moment of scripting
* An Idris comes to save them, and jitter-janks its way to the surface. It extends a ramp for the rover to climb, and the entire thread knew at once it was going to end in disaster. It did. After many failed attempts the rover clipped through the ramp and exploded. The wheels literally fell off and rolled toward the camera, and I very nearly blacked out in laughter
* also the red black box was aboard the rover but nobody acknowledged the mission was a failure
* Sometime after this we cut to a commercial for an RSI-branded webcam. Lots of scare tactics to make you think your existing webcam lacks the horsepower to handle Star Citizen's new facial stuff
* Later, the Idris goes to space and is ambushed a 2nd time, surprising nobody for a 2nd time
* An epic space battle ensues as two goliaths fight through 6-7fps space and jitter-jank into one another. One explodes
* It's the end of the demo. Chris then has a sudden and definitely not scripted idea - let's let the goliaths fight again, but this time the bad guy could win!
* It's another 20 minutes waiting for the really obviously fake and scripted demo to spin up. It's awkward silence. Sandi wanders on stage in her weird clown outfit to give Chris a rum and coke
* The epic space battle begins anew. I cannot notice a single difference, other than a fighter bounces off the hull of the Idris like a Loony Toons cartoon, and the idris rams the bad guy who explodes in 6-7fps fashion. More jitter-jank

Then Chris ends the presentation prematurely before being reminded that the employees are coming out to say goodbye. He asks them to take a bow. They do so. that's it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 26, 2017, 02:56:02 am
There was a five minute windows when this whole thing began where I "might" have gone for the Billy basics minimum backer package.


That soon passed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 26, 2017, 03:00:18 am
>facial recognition

 :nono:

Are we shipping mocap studios with the game now?

Also the whole ramp thing reminds me of Bungie talking about how making the warthog go faster in Halo 3 would cause certain jumps to kill everyone in it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 26, 2017, 05:01:39 am
My sides hurt from laughing. First the thing crashes in the middle of the presentation, and now their little buggy clipped through the ramp and all wheels fell off. It's a perfect analogy of the whole project.

Well it said "Caution" on the ramp!!!!

But it should say "Caution" before it lets you back the project as well. :-P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on August 26, 2017, 05:53:40 am
Yeah, that is the typical CRoberts-Megalomania.

For me it is still a surprise that after CRoberts left they were able to produce a Freelancer back then, that was playable somehow ^^.
If you remember it's development history... yeah it kind looked like this before he left.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 26, 2017, 06:08:28 am
Disregarding all of the smoke and mirrors, all of the jankiness, wank, bugs and bull****. Just looking at the actual 'gameplay' that was put on display here.
Did anyone actually think this looked like fun?. I mean, this is the best they could display, a multiple timed rehearsed scripted experience. And it was full of tedium. Even when doing their WR attempt speedrun, it still took them a good 20 minutes to get to their destination, followed by 5 minutes of utterly unfun jittery combat.

Even if all of this worked exactly as they had hoped, and it wasnt all smoke and scripted mirrors. I feel like the game itself just wouldn't be any fun at all to play. I can imagine this being a blast for the farm simulator crowd though...

Also I think the game just looks, from a visual graphical point of view, utterly wank. There are absolutely no colors to be found anywhere in the world. The gun sound effects are still pew pew, they sound like ****. The gun weapon effects look awful, half the time I couldn't even see what and where they were shooting at. Most of the vehicle models have these really big goofy looking windows on the front, and still somehow manage to have kind of awful visibility from the inside. When they put up the big fleet fight, I couldn't tell what the **** was going on, part of that was the amazing slide show of a framerate, the other part was that the effects and everything just do such a terrible job of telling a visual story.
Freespace 2's retail capital shipcombat just looks better by leaps and bounds.
And it honestly made me feel proud of WoD's combat, I generally tend to be a bit more humble, about my own work but ****damn I feel like WoD looks like a damn masterpiece compared to starcitizen's excuse of space combat.

And since they still dont have working A.I., despite chris' claims that it'll be the most subsumption ai ever created, anyone with a miniscule amount of game development knowledge can tell that SQ42 isn't anywhere close to being done. Cause how the **** are you going to design and script missions when you have no working A.I.. Anyone who ever opened fred and tried to make a mission should be able to tell this. Set all the A.I. fighters in the mission to 'play dead', see how well you can time the mission flow, how easily you can test your sexps' working.
Protip, you can't.
This project is hosed in so many ways lol.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 26, 2017, 06:49:35 am
Disregarding all of the smoke and mirrors, all of the jankiness, wank, bugs and bull****. Just looking at the actual 'gameplay' that was put on display here.
Did anyone actually think this looked like fun?. I mean, this is the best they could display, a multiple timed rehearsed scripted experience. And it was full of tedium. Even when doing their WR attempt speedrun, it still took them a good 20 minutes to get to their destination, followed by 5 minutes of utterly unfun jittery combat.

For all the justified criticism a game like Mass Effect Andromeda got at launch, it seems like an infinitely more accomplished game than anything I've seen out of Mr "I'm doing crowdfunding so I don't have to deal with EA anymore" Roberts so-called development studio.

Quote
Even if all of this worked exactly as they had hoped, and it wasnt all smoke and scripted mirrors. I feel like the game itself just wouldn't be any fun at all to play. I can imagine this being a blast for the farm simulator crowd though...

Also I think the game just looks, from a visual graphical point of view, utterly wank. There are absolutely no colors to be found anywhere in the world. The gun sound effects are still pew pew, they sound like ****. The gun weapon effects look awful, half the time I couldn't even see what and where they were shooting at. Most of the vehicle models have these really big goofy looking windows on the front, and still somehow manage to have kind of awful visibility from the inside. When they put up the big fleet fight, I couldn't tell what the **** was going on, part of that was the amazing slide show of a framerate, the other part was that the effects and everything just do such a terrible job of telling a visual story.
Freespace 2's retail capital shipcombat just looks better by leaps and bounds.
And it honestly made me feel proud of WoD's combat, I generally tend to be a bit more humble, about my own work but ****damn I feel like WoD looks like a damn masterpiece compared to starcitizen's excuse of space combat.

You see, your mistake was to continually ask yourself "is this fun to do". If you hadn't done that, think of all the jpg money you could be swimming in!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 26, 2017, 07:30:49 am
****, is it too late to still change my ways? I wanna be rich too
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 26, 2017, 07:45:22 am
(https://i.imgur.com/CSLTA9i.png)
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-psyduck.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 26, 2017, 07:52:45 am
(https://i.imgur.com/zTpZNEJ.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 26, 2017, 08:18:11 am
* It's another 20 minutes waiting for the really obviously fake and scripted demo to spin up. It's awkward silence. Sandi wanders on stage in her weird clown outfit to give Chris a rum and coke

It was actually a vodka and soda. Who the **** drinks vodka and soda, the tasteless drink with the tasteless mixer?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on August 26, 2017, 08:35:37 am
I think that fits Chris Roberts, plain white middle-aged guy out of touch with any developments in his industry in the last 10 years and wears nothing but black long-sleeved shirts, to a T.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 26, 2017, 09:26:31 am
My sides hurt from laughing. First the thing crashes in the middle of the presentation, and now their little buggy clipped through the ramp and all wheels fell off. It's a perfect analogy of the whole project.

Got a link to the highlights? I don't want to sit through all the waffle.

Copy/pasted from SA:


BYE MOON!: https://clips.twitch.tv/HorribleThankfulElkBrainSlug
STAR CITIZEN IS NOT RESPONDING: https://clips.twitch.tv/StormyObservantBeeM4xHeh
PUT HER DOWN: https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyRichOrangeBloodTrail

RAMP FAIL:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentDreamyEchidnaJonCarnage

As a bonus, here's Chris yelling not to show the loading screen: https://clips.twitch.tv/SoftDeterminedRaisinPupper

THANKYOU!

SC has the best bugs, the greatest. It's gonna be huge.

The game didn't crash. We've always been at war with Elite Dangerous.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 26, 2017, 09:39:57 am
Actually, I drink vodka and soda all the time. It's a good thing to have as the last couple of drinks when you've been drinking heavily as it hydrates you more than pretty much any other combination.

Now why someone would be drinking it unless they are already drunk is more of a mystery. Unless he was drunk, which would explain a lot actually.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 26, 2017, 11:21:29 am
I find soda makes me feel kind of worse.  I miss our nights out !
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 27, 2017, 03:07:46 pm
Freespace 2's retail capital shipcombat just looks better by leaps and bounds.
And it honestly made me feel proud of WoD's combat, I generally tend to be a bit more humble, about my own work but ****damn I feel like WoD looks like a damn masterpiece compared to starcitizen's excuse of space combat.

WoD, Blue Planet, Retail Freespace 1/2, X-Wing/Tie Fighter, heck even f***** Wing Commander Saga all have shown us how it's done. Freaking hilarious that the "unofficial" Wing Commander remake has better gameplay leaps and bounds better than what Chris Roberts himself is offering.

And they show that Idris Battle off like it was something to be proud off and it makes me wonder how few backers even played a proper space sim before that they still cheering and not turning away in disgust.

Because you know what looked about as pathetic as this? Retail Wing Commander 3-4 capital ship combat. Don't take me wrong. I liked Wing Commander back in the day for the cinematic story and movie feel ... but combat was always pathetic in comparison to heavyweights like Freespace 2 and Tie Fighter. And now years later ... we have a game running on Geforce 1080 GTXs that still has graphic effects that look as pathetic as the original Wing Commander 3-4 games running on a 486er CPU.

I mean seriously, if you take out the ship models there would really  not be much of a discernable difference between Star Citizen with it's (barely visible/noticable) weapon effects and Wing Commander 4, a DOS Game running in software 3d on a 486. Kinda hilarious when you think about it.

Remember this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFnlnFG2ptE ? Yeah the actual shot models look worse up close... but look at those wide shots with ships firing at each other where you barely see a thing at all except the occasional miniscule flashes and the UI. Pretty much Star Citizen, eh? ;-) LOL.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 27, 2017, 03:49:46 pm
Mhmmmm, Deutsch...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 27, 2017, 04:27:16 pm
You seriously underestimate the power of self delusion. When you're desperate it's easy to make yourself believe in ideas and "concepts" rather than reality. So when you see a rather dull SC presentation your brain can just fill in the gaps with your dreams and suddenly it starts looking way better than it would if you looked at it with a clear mind.

Right now there are still enough people who believe in the Star Citizen dream for the project to keep going, but that won't last forever. DNF was considered a promising 'best game ever' before it became a joke. I think SC is right on that turning point at the moment. If(actually, when) 3.0 disappoints everyone we'll see another big wave of refunds.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 27, 2017, 06:15:45 pm
WoD, Blue Planet, Retail Freespace 1/2, X-Wing/Tie Fighter, heck even f***** Wing Commander Saga all have shown us how it's done. Freaking hilarious that the "unofficial" Wing Commander remake has better gameplay leaps and bounds better than what Chris Roberts himself is offering.

And they show that Idris Battle off like it was something to be proud off and it makes me wonder how few backers even played a proper space sim before that they still cheering and not turning away in disgust.

Because you know what looked about as pathetic as this? Retail Wing Commander 3-4 capital ship combat. Don't take me wrong. I liked Wing Commander back in the day for the cinematic story and movie feel ... but combat was always pathetic in comparison to heavyweights like Freespace 2 and Tie Fighter. And now years later ... we have a game running on Geforce 1080 GTXs that still has graphic effects that look as pathetic as the original Wing Commander 3-4 games running on a 486er CPU.

I mean seriously, if you take out the ship models there would really  not be much of a discernable difference between Star Citizen with it's (barely visible/noticable) weapon effects and Wing Commander 4, a DOS Game running in software 3d on a 486. Kinda hilarious when you think about it.

Remember this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFnlnFG2ptE ? Yeah the actual shot models look worse up close... but look at those wide shots with ships firing at each other where you barely see a thing at all except the occasional miniscule flashes and the UI. Pretty much Star Citizen, eh? ;-) LOL.
Hah, so true.

You seriously underestimate the power of self delusion. When you're desperate it's easy to make yourself believe in ideas and "concepts" rather than reality. So when you see a rather dull SC presentation your brain can just fill in the gaps with your dreams and suddenly it starts looking way better than it would if you looked at it with a clear mind.

Right now there are still enough people who believe in the Star Citizen dream for the project to keep going, but that won't last forever. DNF was considered a promising 'best game ever' before it became a joke. I think SC is right on that turning point at the moment. If(actually, when) 3.0 disappoints everyone we'll see another big wave of refunds.
It's especially easy to fill in the gaps with imagination, if you can't see what's actually suppose to go on in that demo presentation.

Additionally, the citizens still love deluding themselves with the "it's alpha" bull****. "It'll be good in 2020, AAA games all take 9 years to develop."


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 27, 2017, 08:37:17 pm
I finally watched the Idris thing. Wow does it make retail Clash of the Titans look like a ****ing fireworks display and it's just 2 bigass ships moving slowly at each other shooting blob turrets. Oh wait, there's bombers. With bombs. That have some kind of impact.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on August 28, 2017, 08:12:51 pm
I heard the next solar eclipse is 2019.  Maybe CR will set a new release date for then.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 30, 2017, 02:20:06 pm
You seriously underestimate the power of self delusion. When you're desperate it's easy to make yourself believe in ideas and "concepts" rather than reality. So when you see a rather dull SC presentation your brain can just fill in the gaps with your dreams and suddenly it starts looking way better than it would if you looked at it with a clear mind.

This goes both ways. A 100+ page thread circlejerking about how bad SC is with multiple of SA forums readers is inevitably self-deluded quite a lot. Actual reception of the demo outside of this echo chamber was neutral to positive.

http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-expressive-faces-space-fashion-and-boldly-going-beyond-30/#comment-jump

My impressions: game is slowly but surely getting there, overall the demo wasnt anything new, just more mature form of things we have already seen, I like that the demo was almost all actual gameplay instead of pointless videos, there were some bugs and crashes but that is not important and to be expected, facial animations tracking is long overdue in online games and it is great to see a serious attempt to implement them, combat looked good, flight model would probably benefit greatly from a slowed down landing mode, space battle had too dark lighting

Still waiting for that 3.0 release to really form an opinion about the future of this game, Gamescom demo didnt really change this for me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 30, 2017, 02:34:27 pm
It definitely wasn't all actual gameplay.  It was super scripted and yet was still buggy and clunky as ****.  Ship still move with zero inertia, it took them half an hour just to leave the station to go on a fetch quest, which was capped off by an extremely tedious "dogfight" and the most boring capship battle I've seen since the last WC game.  Even FS1 capship fights look more interesting than the one they showcased here. 

Like Spoon said, even ignoring the scripting, this game doesn't look fun.  Every aspect showcased in the presentation looks tedious and uninspired.  The RP was cringe-inducing, yet it's perfectly representative of this game as a whole.  It's creatively bankrupt, from backstory, to visual/sound design, to gameplay.  There is absolutely nothing they're doing that hasn't been done much better by other games.

Also, PC Gamer has been gushing about SC for years.  They're either getting paid (wouldn't be a first for CIG), or the person writing these articles is a Citizen.  They're definitely not unbiased.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on August 30, 2017, 02:56:36 pm
My impressions: game is slowly but surely getting there, overall the demo wasnt anything new, just more mature form of things we have already seen, I like that the demo was almost all actual gameplay instead of pointless videos, there were some bugs and crashes but that is not important and to be expected, facial animations tracking is long overdue in online games and it is great to see a serious attempt to implement them, combat looked good, flight model would probably benefit greatly from a slowed down landing mode, space battle had too dark lighting

I'm just gonna say right now, "matured" tech wouldn't be running at <10FPS for a goddamned presentation. Or let a client crash so catastrophically that the entire demo needs to be restarted. Oh, and ramps wouldn't be traps.

If what you're showing to the world as "progress" is so violently unstable and unplayable even on computers with the appropriate high-end hardware, you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 30, 2017, 03:12:55 pm
I fail to see why online games would benefit from "facial animations tracking" 666maslo 666.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 30, 2017, 03:13:50 pm
The only piece of writing that approaches neutrality on SC that I've seen was the Kotaku UK series months ago.

And yeah. CIG rolling out yet another shiny new tech that is completely ancillary to the actual game they're supposedly trying to make, them not showing off any of their single player content that, just a year ago, they couldn't shut up about because of the high profile actors they hired, them doing a stage demo that was as scripted as it possibly could be and it still didn't run smoothly? Those are not signs of a game undergoing healthy development.

And above all, we've been here before. We've already seen the barely functional demo and the painfully scripted play twice, when they demoed Star Marine (remember that?) or multicrew.

CIG is not well. SC isn't even close to being a minimally viable product yet, over half a decade and over 150 million dollars later.

As a comparison that has to hurt: Bioware is very definitely not well either. When they unveiled Anthem, they even did a painfully scripted demo thing. And yet? Despite all of that? I trust them to deliver a game that is at least competently made and fun to play some time close to their intended release date.

SC was supposed to be the grand epic of crowdfunding. The proof, above all, that big good games do not require EA or other publishers, just a strong vision at the helm and competent people below. For a time, CIG even managed to pull off the look of succeeding at this.
Instead, it has become a laughingstock. Instead, it took Ninja Theory, of all people, to show us what a modern game with a strong vision and without publishers interfering looks like.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 30, 2017, 03:24:25 pm
Oh, and about that face thing.

CIG can't even have more than a few people in the same space or have vehicles interacting cleanly. But hoo boy, it sure is a good thing that they want to let everyone see the face you're making when your character dies because the game couldn't resolve colliders correctly.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on August 30, 2017, 04:19:46 pm
Oh, and about that face thing.

CIG can't even have more than a few people in the same space or have vehicles interacting cleanly. But hoo boy, it sure is a good thing that they want to let everyone see the face you're making when your character dies because the game couldn't resolve colliders correctly.

But how will we lay claim to being the greatest PC game if we aren't accurately modeling human muscle structure and mapping it in real time to web cam footage?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 30, 2017, 05:09:02 pm
I've been thinking, "I only pledge 65 bucks, 5 years ago. I think it's worth it to keep just to see the game when it's out."

I have too many good games in my backlog and wishlist, and already not enough time to get to them all. I've finally started the refund process.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 03, 2017, 01:06:09 pm
I fail to see why online games would benefit from "facial animations tracking" 666maslo 666.

Interacting with other people is important in online games and obviously face is an important part of human interactions. So the benefit is obvious. I mean, it probably wont make or break an online game but it is a nice detail.

However as an owner of a VR headset I am also looking at it from a VR perspective, too. Face tracking is part of the whole package along with body tracking and finger tracking. Sooner or later all these complimentary tracking technologies will merge into a pretty realistic and immersive online avatars for VR games. These are just the first steps into that direction, and it is good to see CIG being pioneers in this area.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 03, 2017, 01:08:55 pm
However as an owner of a VR headset I am also looking at it from a VR perspective, too. Face tracking is part of the whole package along with body tracking and finger tracking. Sooner or later all these complimentary tracking technologies will merge into a pretty realistic and immersive online avatars for VR games. These are just the first steps into that direction, and it is good to see CIG being pioneers in this area.

You do know that a VR headset is very good at blocking the parts of your face this tech is accessing, right.

And while I agree that this is a tech that is sure to happen at some point in the future, I don't think that SC is the project to do it in.

After all, they haven't even been able to do what should be simple: Make a compelling single-player game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 03, 2017, 01:09:37 pm
I've been thinking, "I only pledge 65 bucks, 5 years ago. I think it's worth it to keep just to see the game when it's out."

I have too many good games in my backlog and wishlist, and already not enough time to get to them all. I've finally started the refund process.

That's the spirit, you can get a (mostly) finished brand new AAA game with that and still have 5 bucks left.

Also:

(http://dereksmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/croberts-get-a-refund.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 03, 2017, 01:11:49 pm

After all, they haven't even been able to do what should be simple: Make a compelling single-player game.

But they're actually making the first 100% interactive movie ever so cut them some slack. It's not like any other games have ever done ****loads of mocap or had film quality cutscenes. Plus they need perfect flight modeling before they can do any mission design prototyping, don't you know how game development works?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 03, 2017, 01:18:49 pm
But they're actually making the first 100% interactive movie ever so cut them some slack. It's not like any other games have ever done ****loads of mocap or had film quality cutscenes. Plus they need perfect flight modeling before they can do any mission design prototyping, don't you know how game development works?

I think cutting them 3 years and a couple dozen million dollars worth of slack should be enough. Like, I'm reasonably certain that if S42 ever comes out? It's not going to be nowhere near as good as Infinite Warfare.....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 03, 2017, 01:40:20 pm
You do know that a VR headset is very good at blocking the parts of your face this tech is accessing, right.

True for an external webcam, but future headsets will likely have face tracking cameras built it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qboqTI56tcw
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on September 03, 2017, 01:44:54 pm
But they're actually making the first 100% interactive movie ever so cut them some slack. It's not like any other games have ever done ****loads of mocap or had film quality cutscenes. Plus they need perfect flight modeling before they can do any mission design prototyping, don't you know how game development works?

I think cutting them 3 years and a couple dozen million dollars worth of slack should be enough. Like, I'm reasonably certain that if S42 ever comes out? It's not going to be nowhere near as good as Infinite Warfare.....

I think this is the most damning sentiment it's possible to have, with a AAA studio putting out a better game in literally 10% of the time for at best equivalent funding.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 03, 2017, 01:50:30 pm
Infinite Warfare was pretty amazing, it's true.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on September 03, 2017, 01:54:57 pm
I certainly enjoyed it, yes.  It could have stood to be longer, the pacing of the entire campaign was ludicrously cramped even if single-mission events felt good, and the flight model was simple.

But the simple flight model was also, importantly, actually fun, and the gunplay felt good.  Which is about 95% of a decent game when it comes right down to it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 03, 2017, 02:24:25 pm
A fun flight model? Bah, we need it to be realistic and tedious!

All joking aside Infinite Warfare certainly flies in the face of whatever in god's name is going on with SQ42. So does House of the Dying Sun though it may have taken 4-5 years for it to actually see a final release with a fraction of the resources.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 03, 2017, 03:12:36 pm
So does House of the Dying Sun though it may have taken 4-5 years for it to actually see a final release with a fraction of the resources.

Without any figures to go on, I'd guess that the budget for Dying Sun was less than the furniture budget for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 03, 2017, 09:31:21 pm
So does House of the Dying Sun though it may have taken 4-5 years for it to actually see a final release with a fraction of the resources.

Without any figures to go on, I'd guess that the budget for Dying Sun was less than the furniture budget for Star Citizen.
Yeah but HotDS didn't have facetracking, now did it?  Therefore, it's inferior to SC, because facetracking is what every previous space sim was missing.  Non-****ty flight models and fun combat are so last decade.  SC is so revolutionary.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 03, 2017, 09:34:11 pm
What gave you the idea that a game about flying spaceships needed to have well done spaceship flying? CRoberts is a visionary in making a space combat sim into a social game by convincing everyone to stay grounded because of the flight mechanics. We must instead hang out in sci-fi bars and pantomime drink. That's what the people really want. All hail CRoberts.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 04, 2017, 07:15:36 am
He's making a game engine to real time render the FMV privateer 2 cutscenes.

This is bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 04, 2017, 02:57:32 pm
I fail to see why online games would benefit from "facial animations tracking" 666maslo 666.

Interacting with other people is important in online games and obviously face is an important part of human interactions. So the benefit is obvious. I mean, it probably wont make or break an online game but it is a nice detail.

However as an owner of a VR headset I am also looking at it from a VR perspective, too. Face tracking is part of the whole package along with body tracking and finger tracking. Sooner or later all these complimentary tracking technologies will merge into a pretty realistic and immersive online avatars for VR games. These are just the first steps into that direction, and it is good to see CIG being pioneers in this area.

They aren't pioneering ****. The PS2 had the EyeToy which could track your arm and body movements - it shipped with a game where you could box against an ai opponent and considering the era it actually worked really well (speaking for myself here). Crucially of course, it was really fun to play, which is more than anyone can say for SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 04, 2017, 04:00:23 pm
They aren't pioneering ****. The PS2 had the EyeToy which could track your arm and body movements

we are talking face tracking here
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on September 04, 2017, 04:06:24 pm
maslo it's genuinely entertaining to witness how utterly deluded you are about anything SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 04, 2017, 04:25:00 pm
They aren't pioneering ****. The PS2 had the EyeToy which could track your arm and body movements

we are talking face tracking here

Face tracking has been a thing for years, just not in a video game. There's a program on Steam that does a really good job of it. And do you really expect players to actually sit down across from each other and talk like they would in real life?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on September 04, 2017, 04:49:00 pm
Can't wait to do this in Star Citizen with my immersion goggles.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on September 04, 2017, 09:57:36 pm
Can't wait to do this in Star Citizen with my immersion goggles.


I'm sold, CIG take my money.  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on September 04, 2017, 10:52:11 pm
All this makes me wonder what the BP team could have done with Star Citizen's level of money.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 04, 2017, 11:01:41 pm
All this makes me wonder what the BP BWO team could have done with Star Citizen's level of money.

More crippling feature creep.

[edit] I misread CT27's post.  Freudian slip. [/edit]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 05, 2017, 07:36:10 am
Actual cassandra system made?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 05, 2017, 07:43:33 am
They aren't pioneering ****. The PS2 had the EyeToy which could track your arm and body movements

we are talking face tracking here

Face tracking has been a thing for years, just not in a video game. There's a program on Steam that does a really good job of it. And do you really expect players to actually sit down across from each other and talk like they would in real life?

Heh, imagine them managing to pull this off and just having to look at everyone's face being one of bitter dissapointment  :blah:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 05, 2017, 07:45:35 am
Although I suppose it's very fitting that they're using the same engine for this as the one that is used for WARFACE
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 06, 2017, 02:17:03 am
Actual quote from Youtube Citizen:

Quote
who gives a ****, every other aaa game will have to lift their game after this is done. this is truly the next generation of games. NOTHING will beat this for a very very long time. and remember this is a kickstarted game that is doing a better job then 99.999% of the other aaa game companies who have years of other games to work off of. nothing will beat this game EVER all of them are held back by publishers and timelines who want the same **** everyone else does.

lel
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 06, 2017, 02:26:24 am
Chris Roberts is going to do for video games what he did for film.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 06, 2017, 05:23:22 am
Actual quote from Youtube Citizen:

Quote
who gives a ****, every other aaa game will have to lift their game after this is done. this is truly the next generation of games. NOTHING will beat this for a very very long time. and remember this is a kickstarted game that is doing a better job then 99.999% of the other aaa game companies who have years of other games to work off of. nothing will beat this game EVER all of them are held back by publishers and timelines who want the same **** everyone else does.

lel
I want to see through the eyes of a citizen for like 5 minutes (and no more than that), to see what they are seeing. They must have constructed an amazing reality for themselves.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 06, 2017, 10:25:28 am
Like Sucker Punch but with less boobs and more neckbeards.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 06, 2017, 12:20:48 pm
They aren't pioneering ****. The PS2 had the EyeToy which could track your arm and body movements

we are talking face tracking here

maslo has it ever crossed your mind that the reason no other game has done facetracking may be that it's a bad idea?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 06, 2017, 12:34:05 pm
Yeah, thinking about it, it makes very little sense when looking at the way people actually play MMOs. In a vacuum, this technology could be a game changer: but only if people were playing these games as they were envisioned in the heady days of Ultima Online, with everyone actually roleplaying all the time.

This isn't what we are doing though, once we are ingame: For most of the game, players will do things that do not involve staring at other people's avatars for any amount of time. If you are in a tense heist situation where you're trying to capture someone else's ship (because that terrible idea is apparently still in the game?), you are not looking at your victim's facial expressions as you shoot him with your spacegun. What you get, then, is a piece of tech that takes money and time to develop, takes up valuable CPU cycles and setup time, all to enhance one little corner of the game which is deeply irrelevant to whether or not the game is going to be good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 06, 2017, 02:26:16 pm
I can't think of any game where the experience would have been meaningfully improved by facetracking. However, Maslo's (and reddit citizens') attempts to make it seem like a big deal are amusing, so I suppose it has improved the Star Citizen experience.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on September 06, 2017, 03:28:34 pm
Wait what? They want to do facetracking in the game? Why? What happens when I look around my desk all the time? I'm not going to spend my time staring at a camera while I play a game right?

I mean is it supposed to be more immersive because people can see my expressions? It's just going to be a bunch of people making stupid faces to troll people anyways.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on September 06, 2017, 06:12:42 pm
Actual quote from Youtube Citizen:

Quote
who gives a ****, every other aaa game will have to lift their game after this is done. this is truly the next generation of games. NOTHING will beat this for a very very long time. and remember this is a kickstarted game that is doing a better job then 99.999% of the other aaa game companies who have years of other games to work off of. nothing will beat this game EVER all of them are held back by publishers and timelines who want the same **** everyone else does.

lel

What system of measurement is he using to say this is doing a better job than 99.999% of other games?  I don't get that at all.

He also says other companies have years of other games to work off of...doesn't CR have Wing Commander to his name to try and learn from the past as well?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on September 06, 2017, 10:11:38 pm
So has their been any delicious fallout from the Gamescom fiasco?  Crushed dream streams and the like?

I want to eat unhappiness and hate babies, and I'm all out of babies.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 06, 2017, 10:23:22 pm
So has their been any delicious fallout from the Gamescom fiasco?  Crushed dream streams and the like?

I want to eat unhappiness and hate babies, and I'm all out of babies.

I think that the remaining Citizen dreams are pretty uncrushable at this point.  Roberts could slap a Star Citizen sticker (or sticky (https://i.imgur.com/2VyJtsr.jpg) notes (https://i.imgur.com/mPzD6M7.jpg)) on unsold copies of Windows ME, and the whales funding the project would say that that boot-to-BSOD was the best feature ever added to a game, before throwing away more money to fund the Jesus patch that will reenable USB keyboard functionality, so that they can use CTRL-ALT-DEL to reboot-to-BSOD.

Then again, I've been wrong about the uncrushability of Citizen dreams before.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 07, 2017, 01:08:15 am
maslo has it ever crossed your mind that the reason no other game has done facetracking may be that it's a bad idea?

Star Citizen is not every other game, I want them to push technological and gameplay boundaries. Id rather have them fail than release an average game, a mere rehash of what has always been done. So even if face tracking turns out to be a bad idea, I dont mind such attempts. But I dont think it will be a bad idea at the very least for VR.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 07, 2017, 01:18:51 am
So you don't think face tracking, a technology that uses cameras to view your face is a bad idea with VR, a technology which uses big bulky goggles that cover up your face.

Hmmmmm....  :doubt:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 07, 2017, 03:05:45 am
So you don't think face tracking, a technology that uses cameras to view your face is a bad idea with VR, a technology which uses big bulky goggles that cover up your face.

Hmmmmm....  :doubt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qboqTI56tcw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCd1aRriIis

I think it is only a matter of time until face tracking is an integrated part of VR systems, just like hand and finger tracking is now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 07, 2017, 03:12:29 am
Okay, maslo. Question. And I know you won't answer this because you won't have an answer for it, but I'm putting it out there anyway. Heck, I think I've posed this question already and you apparently ignored it.

Do you really, really think that people will actually use the supreme almighty face tracking technology that has apparently never, ever been applied to anything commercial except Star Citizen (by the way, lol no) (http://store.steampowered.com/app/274920/FaceRig/) to interact? Do you really think the spastic nature of most players would even allow for it?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 07, 2017, 03:18:39 am
So you're saying Star Citizen is building tech now for hardware that might not even exist and possibly won't really be popular in a few years, and that's somehow a GOOD thing?
VR adoption is already extremely low because of the high price, face-tracking capable VR will be even rarer, if it doesn't just fail miserably because it can't really be applied to games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 07, 2017, 04:02:36 am
Do you really, really think that people will actually use the supreme almighty face tracking technology that has apparently never, ever been applied to anything commercial except Star Citizen (by the way, lol no) (http://store.steampowered.com/app/274920/FaceRig/) to interact? Do you really think the spastic nature of most players would even allow for it?

I think when it is integrated into the game so that it "just works" then a certain subset of playerbase will use it, and this subset will grow over the years until it is possibly a majority.

So you're saying Star Citizen is building tech now for hardware that might not even exist and possibly won't really be popular in a few years, and that's somehow a GOOD thing?


This is valid criticism. It really depends on whether this technology is just a side project of the face team that did not impede other development significantly or whether they are wasting resources and time on this cool but premature technology. Hard to say.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 07, 2017, 05:15:02 am
Pretty much nothing in SC "just works", so I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 07, 2017, 05:22:54 am
maslo has it ever crossed your mind that the reason no other game has done facetracking may be that it's a bad idea?

Star Citizen is not every other game, I want them to push technological and gameplay boundaries. Id rather have them fail than release an average game, a mere rehash of what has always been done. So even if face tracking turns out to be a bad idea, I dont mind such attempts. But I dont think it will be a bad idea at the very least for VR.
Then you'd rather have them fail, because there's nothing Star Citizen is doing that hasn't already been done better by other games.  In no way is Star Citizen pushing technological or gameplay boundaries.  It's all incredibly derivative.

The narrative that the things Star Citizen is doing have never been done before is pushed by Chris Roberts, who is completely out of touch with the industry and doesn't know better.  Citizens lap it up for the same reason they can't see how this project is ****ed.  The core assumption every citizen makes is that Chris Roberts and CIG are right, and if reality disagrees, it's a lie parpetuated by Derek Smart.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 07, 2017, 08:59:15 am
This is valid criticism.
Just like pretty much everything else said in this thread.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 07, 2017, 12:19:51 pm
maslo has it ever crossed your mind that the reason no other game has done facetracking may be that it's a bad idea?

Star Citizen is not every other game, I want them to push technological and gameplay boundaries. Id rather have them fail than release an average game, a mere rehash of what has always been done. So even if face tracking turns out to be a bad idea, I dont mind such attempts. But I dont think it will be a bad idea at the very least for VR.

so basically your standard for what CIG do with backer money is simply that it be new, even if it's incredibly dumb
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on September 07, 2017, 01:53:35 pm
I actually agree with Maslo, up to a point... there's value in "pie in the sky" projects and trying to push the boundaries of tech and game design.

Where I think Star Citizen has gone off the rails is that it's trying to do too many of them at once. That's been the case from the start. An integrated first-person space sim with full freedom of movement inside a ship is innovation (and challenge) enough without piling every kitchen sink you can find on top of it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 07, 2017, 02:52:48 pm
In other news I hear that No Man's Sky is actually a pretty good game now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 07, 2017, 03:06:04 pm
Also Kim Jong Un is a grounded reasonable individual.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 07, 2017, 03:13:04 pm
Where I think Star Citizen has gone off the rails is that it's trying to do too many of them at once. That's been the case from the start. An integrated first-person space sim with full freedom of movement inside a ship is innovation (and challenge) enough without piling every kitchen sink you can find on top of it.

Since I'm going back into academia, the realm of weird **** that most people will never hear about, there certainly is value in pushing the boundaries with what games are. That being said I wouldn't call Star Citizen innovative. We've had movement inside ships for a while (if someone can give me an example from before Mass Effect that would be great since I'm lazy) and yeah putting that with a tightly controlled space sim is ambitious, I wouldn't call it innovative just like how I wouldn't call Prey 2017 innovative even if it was a highly ambitious project that didn't quite reach everything it was shooting for.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on September 07, 2017, 03:35:24 pm
Where I think Star Citizen has gone off the rails is that it's trying to do too many of them at once. That's been the case from the start. An integrated first-person space sim with full freedom of movement inside a ship is innovation (and challenge) enough without piling every kitchen sink you can find on top of it.

We've had movement inside ships for a while (if someone can give me an example from before Mass Effect that would be great since I'm lazy)

Parkan: The Imperial Chronicles... from 1997 :) That is atleast the oldest title i remember right away. So this feature is even older than Freespace itself :).

As i am speaking of Parkan... Star Citizen reminds me of Parkan 2 in some points. That was also way too overambitious... with things like "MORE THAN EVER BEFORE - Explore 500 hand crafted star systems!"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 07, 2017, 03:52:41 pm
I actually agree with Maslo, up to a point... there's value in "pie in the sky" projects and trying to push the boundaries of tech and game design.

Where I think Star Citizen has gone off the rails is that it's trying to do too many of them at once. That's been the case from the start. An integrated first-person space sim with full freedom of movement inside a ship is innovation (and challenge) enough without piling every kitchen sink you can find on top of it.

The original pitch was what hooked me from the beginning - your starfighter/spaceship w/e would move relative to where the actual thrusters were pointing and if an enemy blew off one of those thrusters then you'd lose the ability to move in the corresponding direction. It was a cool idea I thought and if they'd actually stuck to that plan we could have had a half decent spacesim in our hands years ago.

EDIT:

maslo has it ever crossed your mind that the reason no other game has done facetracking may be that it's a bad idea?

Star Citizen is not every other game, I want them to push technological and gameplay boundaries. Id rather have them fail than release an average game, a mere rehash of what has always been done. So even if face tracking turns out to be a bad idea, I dont mind such attempts. But I dont think it will be a bad idea at the very least for VR.
Then you'd rather have them fail, because there's nothing Star Citizen is doing that hasn't already been done better by other games.  In no way is Star Citizen pushing technological or gameplay boundaries.  It's all incredibly derivative.

The narrative that the things Star Citizen is doing have never been done before is pushed by Chris Roberts, who is completely out of touch with the industry and doesn't know better.  Citizens lap it up for the same reason they can't see how this project is ****ed.  The core assumption every citizen makes is that Chris Roberts and CIG are right, and if reality disagrees, it's a lie parpetuated by Derek Smart.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 07, 2017, 04:01:25 pm
Plane sims have been doing those kinds of physics-based flight model for over a decade now. Hardcore flight simulators are also notoriously difficult to learn, having more of a learning cliff than a learning curve as even just staying in the air is difficult while landing is near-impossible for a new player.
But there's also a reason why less serious sims haven't picked up those mechanics, they simply don't belong. If you're not a super serious hardcore simulator then having physics based damage and flight models is just a massive waste of resources and unnecessary complexity that your more arcadey game doesn't benefit from at all.
SC's flight model was never all that complex but it had all that physics-based stuff jammed in there because it sounds cool on paper, practicality be damned!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 07, 2017, 04:08:03 pm
Physics-based ramps.
Physics-based doors.
Physics-based nipple jets.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 07, 2017, 04:13:04 pm
Physics-based corpses.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 07, 2017, 04:28:11 pm
Anybody else thinking that facial tracking is going to interact with the physics system to give us some proper eldritch horrors in the near future?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 07, 2017, 05:50:16 pm
5-6 years into the project:
https://twitter.com/SandiGardiner/status/905856718000840704
Still working on idle animations.

This is good for star citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 08, 2017, 02:57:41 am
We've had movement inside ships for a while (if someone can give me an example from before Mass Effect that would be great since I'm lazy)

I hope you are not implying Mass Effect had seamless movement inside ships like SC. In the words of Dr. Smart: its just a level. Similar thing applies to Parkan.

The closest example to SC walking in ships I can think of is Star Wars Galaxies.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on September 08, 2017, 03:07:07 am
We've had movement inside ships for a while (if someone can give me an example from before Mass Effect that would be great since I'm lazy)

I hope you are not implying Mass Effect had seamless movement inside ships like SC. In the words of Dr. Smart: its just a level. Similar thing applies to Parkan.

Parkan did not have even loading screens within a star system... so what is the condition to be a "Level"?
Yeah, if you take it that way.. Parkan consists of big levels, one star system per once... but in there you where able to shoot through several ships without any loading times. At least in P2.

Yes, of course the interior of the bigger Star Citizen ships can be much more complex and bigger and i hope much more individual. But to say every ship was a level that was loaded individually... i would not take it that way... because it was generated when you fly near a ship. But in SC the interior of ships will also only be loaded into your memory if you near a ship... you will not have the whole game in your RAM when you launch it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 08, 2017, 03:20:57 am
Parkan did not have even loading screens within a star system... so what is the condition to be a "Level"?

When you are walking on foot inside a ship, can you look out the window and see other nearby ships flying around, planets, effects of your own ship movement, etc?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 08, 2017, 10:33:15 pm
Games with seamless ship interior/exterior transits?

Rodina (https://elliptic-games.com/)

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 09, 2017, 02:01:34 am
We've had movement inside ships for a while (if someone can give me an example from before Mass Effect that would be great since I'm lazy)

I hope you are not implying Mass Effect had seamless movement inside ships like SC. In the words of Dr. Smart: its just a level. Similar thing applies to Parkan.

The closest example to SC walking in ships I can think of is Star Wars Galaxies.

Mass Effect 1 technically had seamless movement throughout the Normandy since that elevator was still in game. Hell the entire citadel didn't have loading screens if you didn't fast travel and that was a game built for the 360.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 09, 2017, 03:04:29 am
Lovers in a dangerous spacetime covers that aspect of SC completely.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 09, 2017, 04:51:48 am
Games with seamless ship interior/exterior transits?

Rodina (https://elliptic-games.com/)



My favourite bit is when the door didn't kill the player.


Also (granted it was slightly different)  Mace Griffin.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 09, 2017, 08:19:14 am
I had never seen that game before now. Downloaded the demo, bought it immediately after and have not regretted it. It's like No Man's Sky with focus and purpose and it's barrels of fun.

CR and CIG should play Rodina to see what a small, focused game can accomplish.

The narrator in the video sounds a lot like CRoberts, it's unnerving.  D:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 09, 2017, 01:55:53 pm
Games with seamless ship interior/exterior transits?

Rodina (https://elliptic-games.com/)

Doesn't count because it doesn't use 20k polygons on the pilot's seat.

Nice try Derek.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 09, 2017, 04:38:20 pm
Gah, it's too heavy for my laptop, I'll have to wait until my turn ends before trying it. :(
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on September 11, 2017, 02:22:51 pm
Another game announced which will deliver features promised by Croberts earlier than he will:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cyborg17 on September 11, 2017, 03:15:23 pm
Another game announced which will deliver features promised by Croberts earlier than he will:

Just hoping the UI will work out.  I tried pretty hard to get into X3...  I don't know if I really want to try again. 

Also, glad I never bought in to SC.  Had a bad feeling about it. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on September 11, 2017, 07:53:18 pm
Just hoping the UI will work out.  I tried pretty hard to get into X3...  I don't know if I really want to try again.
Which X3? I mean, Terran Conflict's UI still wasn't good, but it was at least usable, which is more than one could say for Reunion.

On the plus side, it looks like they're focusing on improving macromanagement of large empires, which is something the series has needed for a long time; on the other hand, after the travesty that was Rebirth, I'll be eyeing this with more than a little skepticism until it's actually out and we can see how well it lives up to Egosoft's claims.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 12, 2017, 12:51:22 am
Another game announced which will deliver features promised by Croberts earlier than he will:

Couldn't watch it all due to time constraints but the bit at 0:36 where a small ship launches vertically caught my eye as something neat.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on September 12, 2017, 01:25:48 pm
Another game announced which will deliver features promised by Croberts earlier than he will:

Just hoping the UI will work out.  I tried pretty hard to get into X3...  I don't know if I really want to try again. 

Also, glad I never bought in to SC.  Had a bad feeling about it.

Egosoft and UI Design always has been a difficult relationship. I still remember my confusion and bewilderment after I had started my first X2 game and had realized the UI was keyboard only, no mouse support.  :D

Though what Egosoft most of the time gets right is the economy and the supporting gameplay systems which manages to tickle that capitalist inside me. Just one more cargo run so that I have enough money to buy the silicon mine, so that I can earn more money faster in order to buy more factories/fancy capital ships etc....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 12, 2017, 02:15:34 pm
Games with seamless ship interior/exterior transits?

Rodina (https://elliptic-games.com/)


I tried it a bit, and it's rather interesting but not my cup of tea.
Controlling the ship with a mouse was rather awful, I kept spinning around and missing my target, most of my landings were rather... interesting. I was content just to land with the roof facing the sky, more or less.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 15, 2017, 12:07:40 am
Refund get!

It was surprisingly simple, too. I didn't have to do any arguing or threatening at all! I just followed the first part of that handy guide (http://gameranx.com/updates/id/65926/article/how-to-get-a-refund-in-star-citizen/) posted earlier, and the specialist was actually super helpful.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 15, 2017, 12:44:25 am
Yeah, it took way less time for me to get my refund back than I expected, too. I think I chronicled my journey on Reddit.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 15, 2017, 07:04:12 am
Good job commando
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on September 15, 2017, 10:33:05 am
Still about 100 million in refunds needed though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on September 15, 2017, 10:40:38 am
I really should do the refund dance too
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 15, 2017, 12:37:16 pm
I think CIG realized that being a huge pain in the ass when it came to refunds was hurting them more than the refunds themselves. I had myself braced for a fight but all they did was ask "are you really sure? You're account will be deactivated." and I said sign me the **** up and got my money back.

It's telling that they are happy to get rid of the disillusioned people so easily now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 15, 2017, 12:38:51 pm
I'm not sure if you people realize just how good starcitizen is though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 15, 2017, 12:41:56 pm
It's so good it can't be made.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on September 15, 2017, 01:06:21 pm
It's so good it can't be made.

Damn ... so it's better than every single game released so far in the entire history of gaming!!!!!!!!


Also news has it, this game will literally be the sh**: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/ok-we-are-all-thinking-it-so-let-s-talk-about-it-v
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on September 15, 2017, 01:40:13 pm
Also news has it, this game will literally be the sh**: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/ok-we-are-all-thinking-it-so-let-s-talk-about-it-v
Is this supposed to by ironic? I'm sure CRoberts will add it even if it's intended as a joke since that's what the people want.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 15, 2017, 02:52:03 pm
1)  Send copilot to the loo.
2)  Jettison feces into the windshield of pursuing vessel.
3)  Profit.

Space monkeys.  Star Citizen will be about poop-flining space monkeys in Winnebagos.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 16, 2017, 02:33:52 pm

Space monkeys.  Star Citizen will be about poop-flining space monkeys in thousand dollar JPEGs of Space Winnebagos.

FTFY
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 16, 2017, 08:15:37 pm
I look forward to citizens complaining that trolls pooping in public are ruining their immershun.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on September 16, 2017, 08:42:25 pm
"WHY DON'T WE HAVE WINDSHIELD WIPERS"

Cue CIG charging $50 for windshield wiper addons.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 17, 2017, 03:45:13 am
The flung poop is just going to clip through the ship anyway.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 17, 2017, 04:25:00 am
I can't say "ship clip ****" ten times fast without stumbling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 17, 2017, 06:41:35 am
The flung poop is just going to clip through the ship anyway.

Nah.  They'll fix the dynamic damage model by making all of the ship's exterior surfaces ramps.  There will be spurious and explosive collisions everywhere.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on September 17, 2017, 12:57:48 pm
I really should do the refund dance too
You should; I finally got around to it, and then immediately bought a much better game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 17, 2017, 03:39:14 pm
Plus, if you initially bought in using pounds - before Brexit mind - they refund you in dollars, so you make a wee bit of money if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on September 18, 2017, 08:32:24 am
I wonder how long a video would be if it was a mega compilation of every bug, every botched video and presentation from CIG, and throw in a bunch of pictures of every ship and such with associated price tag, Kickstarter stretch goals not being met, deadlines not being met, maybe some of the press about working conditions at the company, some memes, and anything else you can think of to throw in there. Maybe throw in a counter in the bottom corner that ticks up from start to finish, hitting the total money thrown behind the game at the end of the video.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 18, 2017, 09:29:39 am
I'd be in heaven if this channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYZtp0YIxYOipX15v_h_jnA) would make such a video
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 18, 2017, 10:58:41 am
unfortunately, that endeavour seems very likely to be in the same kind of scope of the game itself, so after kickstarting it, you'd have to wait a bit.... perhaps the game would even, gasp, release before then.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 23, 2017, 01:11:16 pm
Stumble across this video of eve someone made by recording actual players, and I thought.. "How many SC players is this foreshadowing?"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 23, 2017, 02:31:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3ymjRWQ.gif)
Reposting for the heck of it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 04, 2017, 02:41:19 pm
The Insurgency grows (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7474d8/where_is_the_promised_sq42_schedule_report/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 04, 2017, 03:34:54 pm
The schedule is as non-existent as the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 04, 2017, 03:39:55 pm
https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/damien-cox/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-might-launch-october-after-three-delays/

You guys misunderstood us. We didn't say September, we meant October.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 04, 2017, 03:43:15 pm
https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/damien-cox/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-might-launch-october-after-three-delays/

You guys misunderstood us. We didn't say September, we meant October.

Of which year though? ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 04, 2017, 03:52:46 pm
Of which year though? ;)

When the set of real numbers rolls over and we count back up to 1849.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 04, 2017, 04:18:14 pm
It wouldn't be the first time that a major update, after several delays and adjusted dates .... gets scrapped entirely - for months or forever. (Star Marine & Squadron 42 vertical slice for instance.)


But if they pull that again with 3.0 I'd say that would be the point where the majority of backers finally snap.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 04, 2017, 04:19:15 pm
https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/damien-cox/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-might-launch-october-after-three-delays/

You guys misunderstood us. We didn't say September, we meant October.
I love how the one 'critical' bug they show is some flikkering lights. Wow, critical! Unlike say, commando's clipping through their chariots on a whim. Doors being merely suggestions. Character models turning into horrible abominations.

Critical fixing of some light showing black dots. Now we're really getting the core gameplay ready!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on October 04, 2017, 04:29:36 pm
I have it on good authority that the actual official for-realsies launch date is Marchtember Oneteenth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWRKgEy6Okg).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 04, 2017, 04:52:36 pm
Is that the same date as december 19th 2015-2016?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 04, 2017, 05:44:38 pm
The citizens are commenting that saying the patch being delayed is misleading because it's still in alpha.

I think the main issue here is that it's taken five years to get to alpha version 3.0.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 04, 2017, 06:47:49 pm
Development only started last year though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 04, 2017, 08:01:31 pm
Development only started last year though.
I think you mean that development hasn't even really started yet. I mean, obviously you spend five years and who knows how much money just to prepare to start development, and if you think there's another way to make a game, you obviously don't understand game development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 04, 2017, 08:07:24 pm
Development only started last year though.
I think you mean that development hasn't even really started yet.

Hey, now!  They've got eye stabilization and jello physics and.....promotional images.....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 05, 2017, 10:59:59 am
Development only started last year though.
I think you mean that development hasn't even really started yet.

Hey, now!  They've got eye stabilization and jello physics and.....promotional images.....

And it works!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 09, 2017, 06:46:44 am
They've also got Mark Hamill and Gary Oldman! Member that awesome speech Gary Oldman gave as Admiral whothe****?!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 09, 2017, 07:51:53 am
(http://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2015/Phriday/Gary_Oldman_Blow/starter.jpg)

So apparantly 3.0 is in the hands of the avocado's, and they put a watermark in there. So cig can identify if someone is spreading leaks.
Because you know, open development, can't have leaks of a janky alpha build that backers have poured millions into or something. I dont even know anymore.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 09, 2017, 08:14:26 am
So apparantly 3.0 is in the hands of the avocado's, and they put a watermark in there. So cig can identify if someone is spreading leaks.
Because you know, open development, can't have leaks of a janky alpha build that backers have poured millions into or something. I dont even know anymore.

Anyone still wanna take bets if it's ever gonna be released to regular backers or if some serious "blockers" suddenly pop up that prevent a major release? ;-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 24, 2017, 01:25:31 pm
one of the avocados leaked (https://np.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/)

it's exactly as bad as you'd expect
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 24, 2017, 02:09:05 pm
Quote
Q: How's the network performance?

A: It differs between builds. We're at patch 3.0.0d and I've been getting an average of ~40 FPS in the US server, 20 FPS in the EU server and 15 FPS in the AUS server. I'm testing with a GTX980, Intel i7 and 32GB RAM. As always, the FPS drops down 10-15 FPS when the server is full.
Shocking.

Quote
Q: How's cargo?

A: We can interact with cargo strewn about in derelicts and mission sites, but shopping/selling cargo isn't fleshed out yet.
I mean, why would it be. It's only been over 5 years in the making. Why would anything be fleshed out at this point?

Quote
Q: How's the Nox and other bikes?

A: The Nox is very uncontrollable and tends to flip to its side. The DF can spawn upside down and is jerky at best. Both bikes can be placed inside the Cutlass and other multicrew ships, but getting them inside in one piece without dying is very challenging. The URSA I have not tested because there's a known issue with the ASOP terminals where some ships don't show up even though they're available in the patch.
Same good old janky starcitizen.

Quote
Q: How's the moons?

A: Tricky to get to atm. When first QTing to a moon, the ship stops about 500km away, so you have to go back to the star map app and select 1 of 6 bouys or "OMs" to get closer to them. Then you have to max out your ship's speed with AB to travel about 100km to reach an outpost or station. For example, from Port Olisar to Levski, you select Delamar as your destination on the star map app, then after arriving you select OM3 to get close to Levski, then after that you point your ship towards where Levski should be and you wait about 5 minutes in max speed to get to the vicinity of Levski where you can ping the ATC guy to give you a hangar to land on. The moons themselves only have 5-7 outposts marked on the star map, but there are roads, derelicts and un-marked buildings that you can explore just by flying around. Other than that, the moons are very sparse between marked outposts and bikes are too buggy to effectively roam around moons.
Ho boy, how fun and immersive this sounds to play!

Quote
Q: You mentioned there are NPCs in the build?

A: Yes, patch 3.0.0a had them roaming around doing their own business in Port Olisar and Levski, but they were buggy and get stuck in doors. In later patches, CIG decided to freeze them in a line in Port Olisar, so we'd make memes about them in ETF Spectrum. You can't interact with them yet, and Miles spits out the same greeting line at Levski.
I'd be more suprised if any of these things actually worked.

Quote
Q: How's oxygen and stamina?

A: Like I said, there's an o2 meter showing a blue bar that depletes over time and how fast your pace is. There's also an oxygen timer on the front page of the mobiglass showing how much oxygen you have like 1H:50M:26S. Stamina is dependent on your o2 levels and is influenced by how fast you walk/jog. You use the scroll wheel to change your pace from casual walk to power walking to lazy jog to normal jog. The sprint button is still the left shift key and it drains your stamina & oxygen the fastest among the paces. There's a heart rate graph on your helmet HUD that quickens depending on how fast and how long you sprint and what pieces of armor you wear. If you don't heed the heart rate graph and keep sprinting, your character slows to the casual walk, your vision goes blurry, and you have to wait for your heart rate to go down before you resume. This will be great for Star Marine.

Being able to pass out after a whole 5 seconds of sprinting. This will be great for star marine.  :lol:

Quote
Q: When do you think 3.0 will go to PTU?

A: Honestly, don't expect it in November. We're still only focusing tests on traversal features. Shopping and the mission system still needs a lot of work, NPCs are broken af, ships are buggy af, crashes and 30001 errors happen every day, and even traversal is buggy with some ships not having QT fuel nor not enough to get anywhere interesting.
But... this was suppose to be the great savior patch, the chosen one. Croberts promised us!

Star citizen: Honestly, don't expect it ever.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 24, 2017, 02:24:52 pm
Just so i'm sure, nobody here is still buying it?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 24, 2017, 02:26:04 pm

But... this was suppose to be the great savior patch, the chosen one. Croberts promised us!

Star citizen: Honestly, don't expect it ever.


The similarities of the ETA of Star Citizen's release and the ETA discussed in the "end of the world" threads that we also have on this board are priceless.

"This time it's gonna happen for sure! Really!!! This is the date, it has to be, all the signs say so!!!!"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on October 24, 2017, 02:29:39 pm
Apparently the FPS is significantly improved in the very most recent patch.

Just so i'm sure, nobody here is still buying it?

Well, I spent all of $20 on it, for the whole "PU + SQ42" package. (At the time, I figured I was willing to pay that to get access to Arena Commander... this was right before Elite was released and I was feeling real hungry for 6DOF combat). I'm not going to bother backing out of $20, and Arena Commander was decently fun for a few hours.

Besides, I haven't given up on the hope that some reasonably-fun game is going to emerge. Eventually.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 24, 2017, 02:36:19 pm
I was hoping we'd at least get SQ42 at some point.  It's been a while since a decent space sim was released (outside of the modding scene here of course)...I'd love to play a WC/FS2/X-Wing (heck even Starlancer) type of game again.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 24, 2017, 03:33:54 pm
I actually reeaaaally enjoyed starlancer aside from the lack of freedom between missions to roam the carrier WC3 style.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 09:26:43 am
Don't forget to tune into citizencon https://go.twitch.tv/starcitizen (its on, at the moment of posting)
and laugh at all the bull****
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2017, 09:43:52 am
have they got the whiskey glass rendering right, or are they still not rendering the caustics correctly is all I wanna know k
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 10:20:15 am
dear lord this is boring
they're presenting inverse kinematics as if its never been done before.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2017, 10:22:23 am
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 10:35:33 am
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. NO GAME HAS THIS EVER.
Have you even played a game in the recent 10 something years?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 27, 2017, 10:38:59 am
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
Cool.
Where's the rest of the game ?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 10:43:08 am
Footplacement on slopes is super important to this space sim game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2017, 10:47:47 am
NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. NO GAME HAS THIS EVER.

Have you even played a game in the recent 10 something years?

Actually most games dont bother with inverse kinematics and just play a simple animation and certainly very few games (if any) have such advanced inverse kinematics that things such as walking on stairs or walking over detailed physics objects is correctly modeled. Which was the point of the technology shown. Your video with enormous terrain polygons almost bigger than the character proves nothing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2017, 10:48:55 am
have they already previewed their boat mechanics or not, I mean they do have water planets right? Come on, sails' physics man.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 10:51:37 am
People bought tickets for this
It's amazing how much of nothing they have to show.

Actually most games dont bother with inverse kinematics and just play a simple animation and certainly very few games (if any) have such advanced inverse kinematics that things such as walking on stairs or walking over detailed physics objects is correctly modeled. Which was the point of the technology shown. Your video with enormous terrain polygons almost bigger than the character proves nothing.
My video demonstrates that this technology has existed for over 10 years, you numbnuts. Cig did nothing new, they just refined something that has existed for over a decade, and try to pass it off as something revolutionary, new and exciting.

And suckers like you fall for it, hook line and sinker.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2017, 10:54:37 am

My video demonstrates that this technology has existed for over 10 years, you numbnuts. Cig did nothing new, they just refined something that has existed for over a decade, and try to pass it off as something revolutionary, new and exciting.

And suckers like you fall for it, hook line and sinker.

The only one who thinks CIG claims to have invented inverse kinematics is you. They did not invent it, but they certainly pushed it to new heights, as shown when the character was walking over detailed physicalised objects.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2017, 11:05:46 am
And yet their animations still look like ****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 27, 2017, 12:33:44 pm
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
Answer in 10 words or less: what in the hell does hyper-realistic foot physics modeling add to how enjoyable the gameplay experience is?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 27, 2017, 12:43:18 pm
So besides the foot fetish stuff did this event present anything else worthy of animated gif fodder?

I need to slurp up some new SC memes

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4636868/cheese-slurp-o.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 27, 2017, 12:48:22 pm
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
Answer in 10 words or less: what in the hell does hyper-realistic foot physics modeling add to how enjoyable the gameplay experience is?

What it does is add a fig leaf of a justification for why everything takes longer and longer and longer ... and they are further from release now than they already said they were years ago.

You can't just come out and say "Uh sorry guys, we suck at this and we tried to make basic gameplay work and it still sucks. We're really trying, but we keep failing because we're not good enough."

Sounds much better if you say "Ah well it's gonna take a bit longer mmm yeah because you know those ultra realistic physics, takes time mm k, no other game has this, you know?".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 27, 2017, 01:30:50 pm
So inverse kinematics in Cry Engine is a performance-killer.  I know because MWO had to turn the feature off, and when PGI (a small, third-rate developer whose single, awful game stays afloat on the strength of nostalgia for MechWarrior and BattleTech) needs to drum up excitement for a future patch, they make an empty promise about being able to turn IK back on without tanking framerates.

Yeah, CIG has now sufficiently debased themselves to invite comparisons to PGI, despite having enough money and employees to buy and populate an island in the Pacific.  That's pretty sad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 27, 2017, 01:36:57 pm
I'd like to know how much time and assets they spent developing foot physics and other smoke screen projects in order to justify lack of progress on the main game, and how far along they would be if those resources were spent towards resolving main game-play issues.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 27, 2017, 02:05:25 pm
Very nice movement animation tech being shown. Finally a game where feet are not stomping around randomly but take physics into account.
Answer in 10 words or less: what in the hell does hyper-realistic foot physics modeling add to how enjoyable the gameplay experience is?

Don't think too much about non-important stuff like gameplay... instead buy this shiny new Intel Optane SSD and get that other shiny new spaceship!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 27, 2017, 02:24:47 pm
Source engine uses IK for foot palcement, HL2 and portal and TF2 etc etc.

Also Battlefield 3 and 4, both i may add use vehicles which don't kill their occupants.  (and previous games used much bigger mobile command craft)

Not sure if ARMA uses it too maybe?

How can CiG take something that works and make it less than the status quo for how it should operate?

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 27, 2017, 02:40:22 pm
ocarina of time had basic IK foot placement
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 27, 2017, 02:46:02 pm
ocarina of time had basic IK foot placement

What's the crowdfunding goal to get an N64 port of Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 03:14:09 pm
It's absolutely amazing how much of nothing they showed off.
You'd almost think that after 6 years of development, they don't have a game to show.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 27, 2017, 03:24:40 pm
The thumb is on stage now, get ready to cringe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2017, 03:51:14 pm
microsoft no wing commander's city sky planet simulator 2023.

ok that was cool. even if it never ships, it's a hell of a demo.

Oh lol jumps take 8 minutes, that is totally going to work like a charm roflmao
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 27, 2017, 04:26:23 pm
Aaaand it's over. Had some nice looking procgen cities and landscapes that will keep the whales happy for at least another year.

Number of seconds that any actual gameplay of SC or SQ42 was shown -> 0
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 04:28:03 pm
They do this ****, every, single, year.
Show a techdemo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2017, 04:35:05 pm
Nice procgen city tech, how do you interact with it  :confused:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 27, 2017, 04:41:01 pm
You don't
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on October 27, 2017, 05:29:32 pm
Hi guys. When does Citcon start?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kszyhu on October 27, 2017, 07:05:13 pm
Does this new ship remind anyone of anything? https://i.imgur.com/NsyQ8A7.jpg
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Ulala on October 27, 2017, 07:07:21 pm
Does this new ship remind anyone of anything? https://i.imgur.com/NsyQ8A7.jpg

Indeed. Is this new ship a stealth ship? Not that it really matters..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 28, 2017, 02:51:05 am
Does this new ship remind anyone of anything? https://i.imgur.com/NsyQ8A7.jpg

Indeed. Is this new ship a stealth ship? Not that it really matters..


Blatant ripoff.  He'll probably say homage.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 28, 2017, 03:30:58 am
https://www.pcinvasion.com/star-citizen-citizencon-2017-report

A cynical rundown of the event. Apparently feet kicking up dust is a "game changer."

Quote
What fans wanted to know was what is coming after Star Citizen 3.0 even though 3.0 is still in testing with the Evocati testing group. Beyond 3.0, CIG will be switching to a date driven model instead of a content-driven model. The plan is to push out quarterly releases and there will be a roadmap of features and content releases to show what they are working on. Of course, these schedules don’t mean very much because even Roberts says that content that doesn’t make it into a release will be shifted into the next. This means that CIG can keep a release date for anything completely open. What they appear to be trying to get away from is long periods where there are no updates at all.

OH, BOY! More excuses to push things back!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on October 30, 2017, 08:14:07 am
Didn't they already have a plan for roadmaps to show progress because people were mad at the lack of updates?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 30, 2017, 12:28:12 pm
microsoft no wing commander's city sky planet simulator 2023.

ok that was cool. even if it never ships, it's a hell of a demo.

Oh lol jumps take 8 minutes, that is totally going to work like a charm roflmao

There are actually masochists in the MMO crowd that dig this ... a lot.

It's just insane for anyone who evaluates a game based on gameplay. If you evaluate it in terms of"effort/reward" then it totally makes sense. How else can you put hours uppon hours into the game and prove the worth of your e-p*** and feel superior over all the peasants who do not game fulltime, but also do other things in their life ... like work, or love. Unworthy unwashed peasants. Besides, "you can play minigames or browse Mobiglass during travel or even alt tab out and do something else" while you (uh cough?) "play the game", so it's totally fine. (They are saying that in righteous defense of long travel times on the forums ... really. :banghead:)

That's basic Everquest mechanics still rearing their ugly head  ... in this day and age, LOL.
(And the Everquest mentality is strong on the forums. Woe to anyone who dares criticise tedious mechanics. Apparently they are what sets this game apart from all the other unworthy games.  :rolleyes:)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 30, 2017, 01:23:53 pm
I especially love when they claim there are no "loading screens", because ya know, everything is being calculated real time.

Just a minute afterwards, they're all like "and now going to that planet which is 20smth million kilometers will take 8 minutes, see, cause that's how the spaceengine works, and totally not the biggest hidden loading screen you'll ever see in a game. Nope. Not at all."

Who the **** eats this **** up? Come on people.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 30, 2017, 02:09:03 pm
I dunno, that doesn't seem too likely to me. Travel time is a ****ty cover for loading screens because it's pretty much fixed but loading is highly unpredictable (Elite just freezes you indefinitely on transitions because of this) — I think it's more likely that, given Star Citizen standards of technical quality, it was pretty easy to implement a smooth loading system which wasn't noticeably more broken than the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 30, 2017, 03:03:24 pm
Travel time is a ****ty cover for loading screens because it's pretty much fixed but loading is highly unpredictable
I dunno, I think I could reasonably assume any load time for a system would be <= 8 minutes
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 30, 2017, 03:19:06 pm
you could reasonably assume that the netcode wouldn't bottleneck graphical fps too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 30, 2017, 03:19:50 pm
(And the Everquest mentality is strong on the forums. Woe to anyone who dares criticise tedious mechanics. Apparently they are what sets this game apart from all the other unworthy games.  :rolleyes:)
They're not wrong.  Lack of fun would definitely set this game apart from fun ones.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 30, 2017, 03:36:36 pm
you could reasonably assume that the netcode wouldn't bottleneck graphical fps too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
touché
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 30, 2017, 03:47:44 pm
Travel time is a ****ty cover for loading screens because it's pretty much fixed but loading is highly unpredictable
I dunno, I think I could reasonably assume any load time for a system would be <= 8 minutes

I'm synchronized with this level of cynicism as well.

Also, how does inter system travel works in SC? They can't possibly use the same drive. Do they have jump nodes or whatever? How much time do they need to load every grap... I mean for their drives to get there?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 30, 2017, 05:05:25 pm
Travel time is a ****ty cover for loading screens because it's pretty much fixed but loading is highly unpredictable
I dunno, I think I could reasonably assume any load time for a system would be <= 8 minutes

I'm synchronized with this level of cynicism as well.

Also, how does inter system travel works in SC? They can't possibly use the same drive. Do they have jump nodes or whatever? How much time do they need to load every grap... I mean for their drives to get there?

Most importantly, is there a point in this equation where taking an actual - or theoretical - Starship at high sublight velocities to Alpha Centaury would beat the first SC Starship to reach Alpha Centaury at FTL speed + time until release?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 30, 2017, 06:49:46 pm
Quote from: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2603#post477808960
One of the nice things about Star Citizen at this point is that things have pretty much calcified into their existing properties. Nobody here is magically going to be impressed and decide that, indeed, Star Citizen is good and will impress the world. Similarly nobody on the other side is going to see that and magically go "wow, they didn't show any gameplay" and decide to get a refund. People will see what they want to see, especially given how good Chris is at providing just enough rope for people to hang themselves on their own dreams. What I saw was a lot of really impressive work for a game that nobody actually paid for. I see planets that would look fantastic as flyovers during a cutscene, art assets that would be really great in localized encounters, and plenty of generic (but still nice) content. If CIG had maintained the original concept of instances linked by cutscenes, or if it was for a single player Squadron 42, then I'd be pretty impressed. But since the content they revealed has minimal impact on the expected gameplay, they steadfastly failed to show any kind of multiplayer interaction (or any real gameplay to speak of), and since Star Citizen is supposed to be a MMO and not a single player game there isn't much to be excited about.

What I saw was basically yet another indication of the things that actually matter to Chris Roberts; grandeur, scale, and derivative content. Look at how many times he talked about things that sound impressive like all those NPCs, the size of various buildings, provided a reference to a superior work of fiction like Blade Runner or Star Wars. Look at how little he talked about gameplay loops, or introduced mechanics that players have been waiting years for, or addressed core issues like networking, performance, or the flight model. Look at how a game that was meant to be a space simulation barely even touched space; indeed the only relevant discussion regarding actual space travel was how Chris apparently thinks that waiting eight minutes to travel between planets is somehow good game design. Look at how he thinks that showing hundreds of "procedurally generated" city blocks will somehow enhance the player experience, or how having millions of square kilometers of empty territory will lead to a better experience than what you can already get with Elite.

Star Citizen is not a scam, it's an ego trip. It's hundreds of people working on something, and doing what looks to be some good work doing it, to stoke the narcissism of a failed developer who is more interested in maintaining the appearances of producing a AAA title than actually delivering it. What we saw today was absolutely an indication that they are burning millions and using up a lot of personnel, and they are delivering on things. The problem is that what they're delivering has no bearing on what people are paying for.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 30, 2017, 10:05:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/9XHl18c.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on October 30, 2017, 11:47:42 pm
Quote
Nobody here is magically going to be impressed and decide that, indeed, Star Citizen is good and will impress the world.

Magically impressed, no. But all it would take to impress us would be to actually produce something impressive that looks like it might one day be released.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 31, 2017, 06:40:45 am
Yeah that would require someone fire Crobertsinchief first.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 31, 2017, 02:13:21 pm
I really got a strong "croberts just watched Blade Runner 2049" vibe from the whole presentation.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 31, 2017, 02:31:21 pm
I would, quite genuinely, develop some interest in this game (despite its disastrous dev cycle and ridiculous features) if they just showed a single scripted, passably entertaining single player mission.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on October 31, 2017, 04:00:00 pm
I would, quite genuinely, develop some interest in this game (despite its disastrous dev cycle and ridiculous features) if they just showed a single scripted, passably entertaining single player mission.

That would require a passably entertaining basic combat system first, so don't hold your breath anytime soon - or ever.   :rolleyes:

They've been at it for literally years and have nothing that even comes close to solid core gameplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on October 31, 2017, 04:01:02 pm
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 31, 2017, 04:51:19 pm
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Wing_commander_post.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on October 31, 2017, 05:28:44 pm
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Wing_commander_post.jpg)

I have to admit that i actually like it  :rolleyes:
Even it is too much a submarine movie, of course.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 01, 2017, 04:35:13 am
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Wing_commander_post.jpg)

If that's the sign of things to come for SC, then ... https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/wing_commander/

And yeah there's always some people who like it Novachem and that's not a fault. Except for SC it might be ... if people try so hard to convince themselves they like it for no other reason than having sunk cra*tons of money into it and being unable to admit to themselves that they were fools for doing so.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on November 02, 2017, 04:40:23 am
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Wing_commander_post.jpg)

If that's the sign of things to come for SC, then ... https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/wing_commander/

And yeah there's always some people who like it Novachem and that's not a fault. Except for SC it might be ... if people try so hard to convince themselves they like it for no other reason than having sunk cra*tons of money into it and being unable to admit to themselves that they were fools for doing so.
Videogame movies always tend to suck, the real sign of things to come was Privateer 2: The Darkening.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 02, 2017, 04:32:32 pm
Videogame movies always tend to suck, the real sign of things to come was Privateer 2: The Darkening.

That one was released at least.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SamVision on November 02, 2017, 05:12:02 pm
your all so mean, satr ciitzen will be the best space game ever, when it comes out you will eat your words
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 02, 2017, 05:22:01 pm
My words are delicious and seasoned to perfection.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on November 02, 2017, 07:41:32 pm
Gameplay isn't important when you're making a movie.


If that's the sign of things to come for SC, then ... https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/wing_commander/

And yeah there's always some people who like it Novachem and that's not a fault. Except for SC it might be ... if people try so hard to convince themselves they like it for no other reason than having sunk cra*tons of money into it and being unable to admit to themselves that they were fools for doing so.

As they say limitations are important, or something like that. We're all still here and Freespace barely had character models.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 21, 2017, 02:47:47 am
I am FREE!

(https://i.imgur.com/9nvM28C.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 21, 2017, 02:55:11 am
I am FREE!
Congratulations!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 21, 2017, 02:58:59 am
Only took them over 50 days....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 21, 2017, 03:08:15 am
I am FREE!
Congratulations!
Congratulations !
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2017, 06:19:02 am
I am FREE!
Congratulations!
Congratulations !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on November 21, 2017, 08:58:32 am
lemme explain this joke now for all those who didn't get it the first the second the third and then the fourth time now
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2017, 09:35:28 am
lemme explain this joke now for all those who didn't get it the first the second the third and then the fourth time now
Go on.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on November 21, 2017, 09:44:10 am
so for instance imagine someone achieved something.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 21, 2017, 10:51:15 am
I am FREE!
Congratulations!
Congratulations !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM

Just be careful and always be wary of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU    :shaking:

Yeah I'm back in with a minimum pledge, because I wanted to check out 3.0 for myself.

Yes I regretted it shortly after, but I'm not gonna do the refund dance again over a trivial sum.


And yeah I'm ashamed ....

My name is Mike and last week I pledged again. Now clean for 8 days and counting!  :lol:

Who wants to speak up next?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 21, 2017, 11:05:10 am
WHY!!!????
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2017, 11:38:18 am
WHY!!!????
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 21, 2017, 12:03:32 pm
Well originally, I was looking at Battlefront 2, then I read the articles about that ...  and theeeeen I thought, ah well, before I am foolish and buy THAT i can as well double down on being foolish for nostalgia's sake.

P.S. I found Nostalgia is not all what it's cracked up to be, meh. :/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 21, 2017, 12:16:45 pm
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 21, 2017, 12:28:39 pm
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.

Mhhhhh, I'll keep that in mind!

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 21, 2017, 01:25:35 pm
WHY!!!????

https://youtu.be/oIscL-Bjsq4?t=3m49s

 :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 21, 2017, 01:52:33 pm
WHY!!!????

it's a pretty hilarious game tbf
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on November 21, 2017, 02:36:05 pm
I'm certainly not about to put any new money into the project, but at the same time I see no reason to refund the $20 I've spent. Not worth the trouble, and I'll be able to play whatever does ultimately emerge.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 25, 2017, 06:51:31 am
obligatory derek smart was right (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 25, 2017, 07:05:39 am
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.

Mhhhhh, I'll keep that in mind!

You could also buy wolfenstein2 it's pretty great
Or Heat Signature
Or jesus christ there's so many good games out there
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on November 25, 2017, 07:12:33 am
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.

Mhhhhh, I'll keep that in mind!

You could also buy wolfenstein2 it's pretty great
Or Heat Signature
Or jesus christ there's so many good games out there

Psstt... i heard about an older game called Freespace 2. It is a good christmas present for all your family and friends  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 25, 2017, 02:23:28 pm
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.

Mhhhhh, I'll keep that in mind!

You could also buy wolfenstein2 it's pretty great
Or Heat Signature
Or jesus christ there's so many good games out there

Psstt... i heard about an older game called Freespace 2. It is a good christmas present for all your family and friends  :D

I actually did buy more than one copy of FS2.  :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on November 26, 2017, 03:56:24 am
WHY!!!????
Well, I guess it still offers something other games don't - space legs, nice ship interiors and atmospheric planets. Sure, the current gameplay is super shallow and will probably get super boring after a while, but I would actually pay just to check out those three things (and the ability to grind all of the ships they currently have). It's just a question of whether they can make the frame rate bearable and eliminated critical bugs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 26, 2017, 04:04:02 am
Oh, I would also pay for that sort of experience -- But Roberts has burned whatever goodwill I had for him, and I'll now happily wait until this game reaches a full release (and gets good reviews) before I hand over any money for it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on November 26, 2017, 04:25:00 am
Oh, I would also pay for that sort of experience -- But Roberts has burned whatever goodwill I had for him, and I'll now happily wait until this game reaches a full release (and gets good reviews) before I hand over any money for it.
I don't think this game will ever get a full release, so it's a question of what we can salvage from this mess. For me it's being able to land on a few different planets without the game crashing and having some super basic money earning mechanics (e.g. trading) so I can grind all of the ships and check out their interiors (would be great if they added capital ships in).

I mean, the FPS elements they're developing won't beat Infinite warfare, the space simulation aspect won't beat Elite. So there's little else they can offer for me apart from the above.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on November 26, 2017, 06:12:56 am
I tend to agree with you. Despite all the sneers from the Citizens I suspect that this will basically be like No Man's Sky. A half finished game gets released which is quite interesting for the first few hours but quickly becomes a tedious grind.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 26, 2017, 06:39:21 am
I tend to agree with you. Despite all the sneers from the Citizens I suspect that this will basically be like No Man's Sky. A half finished game gets released which is quite interesting for the first few hours but quickly becomes a tedious grind.

My stance as well. I am kinda curious about what they are doing still. And did want to look at the planets ...

But with all the ship sales and megalomania going on it's pretty clear they are gonna set up the mother of all grinds. And that is not my cup of tea anymore.

Same deal with Elite for me. Very cool to look around for a while ... but the grind, ...  bleigh.

So all in all I am still quite happy with the decision to effectively downgrade my SC pledge from 4k$ to ~ 50 bucks and not spending a penny more!  :nod:


No game is gonna beat my best multicrew experience anytime soon anyways! (That was Air Buccaneers as we crewed one of the small single cannon balloons with over ~ 20 people, singing "Arrrrrgh we gonna die" over the voicechat while losing 1-2 people everytime we fired the cannon or someone misstepped because they was not enough room to stand anywhere else. Too bad no one's playing that anymore.  :lol: )
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 26, 2017, 11:11:09 am
So all in all I am still quite happy with the decision to effectively downgrade my SC pledge from 4k$ to ~ 50 bucks and not spending a penny more!  :nod:

I'd say you could be forgiven for repledging considering how much you got back.

I like to think I can understand SC's draw quite well because I was once snared by it. I used to imagine cruising around with the HLP Brigade, from our flagship, the GTVA Colossus. It's an enticing thought and I really wished it could be so, but I just don't think SC will live up to be a good singleplayer or mmo experience and that's something I find rather sad.

And that's what SC does, it plants hope and imagination in your mind until you realise the reality of where it's actually at.

If they can release something that approaches No Man's Sky levels of playability then that would be a massive leap forward for them, that's how poor SC is as a game, imho.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on November 26, 2017, 12:13:14 pm
In the future, if you have a pile of money that you just have to get rid of with another decision as foolish as "Battlefront 2 or Star Citizen," I can take that money off your hands.  It's really no trouble.

Mhhhhh, I'll keep that in mind!

You could also buy wolfenstein2 it's pretty great
Or Heat Signature
Or jesus christ there's so many good games out there

Psstt... i heard about an older game called Freespace 2. It is a good christmas present for all your family and friends  :D

I actually did buy more than one copy of FS2.  :)

Good boy :)

I actually have several retail versions of this game, because of different releases, languages and because of some different cover designs.
Looks good in a glass shelf :).
But i have also still countless versions of it in my GOG and Steam Inventory for gifts :D.

So to talk about SC. I did not spend a dollar so far, because i was always sceptical because the last chris roberts games were always to overambitious. Prophecy was the best Wing Commander IMO, i liked Starlancer a lot, but that was created by Erin and not by Chris. Wing4 was a good movie, but i never liked the game in it very much.

So my interest was more in SQ42... but actually i fear something like a Wing4 Remake... a good CGI-movie, but a not very good game.
But even the SQ42 interest is not very high at the moment, because i never understand why a very good fighter/bomber pilot should also be a very good soldier that can conquer enemy capital ship by itself to warrant FPS sections, especially in a military scenario.

SC is one of the games where i wished that this one has never reached some stretch goals. For example the linear single player SQ42 was the initial and only part of the project with a classic multiplayer mode. Stretch goals for example were a open-universe gameplay in the style of Privateer and Freelancer were you would be able to interrupt and continue the story as you like, like in the X and Evochron Series without to launch another game (at least it was communicated back then). The MMO component was only a stretch goal... and with it SQ42 went to a linear mission-based campaign standalone game again. This optional open-universe gameplay that should be accessable directly from SQ42 was never an issue again IIRC.

Actually i am not sure if we will see a SQ42 in the first place, because the focus seems to be more on SC... also the gameplay of the space combat section was not very convincing for me in the free weekends. There are much space combat simulators out there that seems to have a better gameplay as Star Citizen after all these years... and if the original gameplay is not very convincing... why should i have interest in all the other stuff? Or why is the gameplay not working after all this years? IMO this one should be the first things in a public released version that should work.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 26, 2017, 12:52:58 pm
WHY!!!????
Well, I guess it still offers something other games don't - space legs, nice ship interiors and atmospheric planets.

Actually, No Man's Sky has that too, and it has gotten quite a few updates since it's release (Atlas Rises has been well-recieved by people who loved the concept but hated the original game) which makes the game much, much better. And for that, you get an actual playable game! In some sense, you could say that that game launched a year too early.

Star Citizen as it stands doesn't have that in the way of reediming features. It's still in alpha.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on November 26, 2017, 01:29:09 pm
WHY!!!????
Well, I guess it still offers something other games don't - space legs, nice ship interiors and atmospheric planets.

Actually, No Man's Sky has that too, and it has gotten quite a few updates since it's release (Atlas Rises has been well-recieved by people who loved the concept but hated the original game) which makes the game much, much better. And for that, you get an actual playable game! In some sense, you could say that that game launched a year too early.

Star Citizen as it stands doesn't have that in the way of reediming features. It's still in alpha.
That's actually a fair point, I sort of forgot about it until karajorma brought it up again. I'd say No Man's Sky's transition from space to planet is less seamless, but then you have games like Infinity: Battlescape that seem to do that really well, so it wouldn't be unique to Star Citizen.

Ok, so I guess cool ship interiors is the last sort of unique thing here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 26, 2017, 02:26:38 pm
No Man's Sky has that too since they added freighters, and I'm quite sure that plenty of space games have let you walk around, with varying degrees of succes (hello Rebirth :P )
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 28, 2017, 12:42:15 pm
My favourite spaceship interiors were on DS9: The Fallen. It was an fps game on the unreal engine and was far better a game than it had any right to be. In the first level (if you pick Worf) you get to run about the Defiant and it's very faithfully portrayed. The rooms and corridors have a good compromise between being cramped yet still large enough to fight in.

Later on there's a bit where you have to find an orb from a derelict Miranda-class starship, the Ulysses. You have to fight your way in, get the lights back on, kill some cardies and jem'hadar, all while navigating twisting corridors and turboshafts. Also flying bat things and pig lizards.

By far my favourite Star Trek game.

Quote
IMO this one should be the first things in a public released version that should work.

It still amazes me that they still haven't got the flight model fully pinned down in a space flightsim.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 28, 2017, 03:29:53 pm
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16278-UEE-Land-Claim-Licenses
More amazing things for Mikes to buy  ;7
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 28, 2017, 03:44:39 pm
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16278-UEE-Land-Claim-Licenses
More amazing things for Mikes to buy  ;7

I'm waiting for the bridges still.  :lol:


....

Kidding aside, Land Claims now? Seriously? Egawd ... maybe I'll refund those 50$ again after all ...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on November 28, 2017, 05:36:12 pm
Looks weirdly familiar (https://www.moonestates.com/).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 29, 2017, 08:39:25 am
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16278-UEE-Land-Claim-Licenses
More amazing things for Mikes to buy  ;7

You could buy real land instead for roughly the same amount of money. (https://www.landwatch.com/default.aspx?ct=r&type=265,6584&=&r.PRIC=1%2c159)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 29, 2017, 08:46:21 am
You don't understand this new economy, man! Just like people aren't buying old, unstable valuables like gold because new, strong and stable alternatives like bitcoin are available, buying real land when you could be buying virtual land is just the smart choice to make.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 29, 2017, 01:00:00 pm
Real land is finite.
Virtual land is copypasta.
If you could buy virtual space, there's a lot more of that.

Chrisrobertsmademestupidwiththis****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on November 29, 2017, 01:02:47 pm
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16278-UEE-Land-Claim-Licenses
More amazing things for Mikes to buy  ;7

I'm waiting for the bridges still.  :lol:


....

Kidding aside, Land Claims now? Seriously? Egawd ... maybe I'll refund those 50$ again after all ...

DOO EEET
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 29, 2017, 02:17:08 pm
Let me know when they start selling solar systems :drevil:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 29, 2017, 04:29:28 pm
Let me know when they start selling solar systems :drevil:

The worrying thing is that people are still throwing money in ungodly amounts at the screen.

Those Frigates and Destroyers they sold for over a thousand bucks each were gone in about an hour.

Solar system? Yeah I'm sure someone would buy that. I also noticed someone asked on the official forums already how much land they would need to buy to own an entire planet ...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on November 30, 2017, 02:38:23 am
Why is that every news of this thing is even more disappointing?
This crap get even worse every time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on November 30, 2017, 06:26:05 am
Why sell a solar system when you can sell a patch of a hundred square meters on some randomized moon for the same ludicrous price?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 30, 2017, 09:26:37 am
I can't wait for the terrain generator to make someone's pre-sold plot of land without enough flat ground to land any of their ships on it.  Good thing you sold the real farm for a fake one!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on November 30, 2017, 09:55:42 am
Why sell a solar system when you can sell a patch of a hundred square meters on some randomized moon for the same ludicrous price?

When selling land no longer works ... you sell Solar Systems.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on November 30, 2017, 10:48:57 am
I can't wait for the terrain generator to make someone's pre-sold plot of land without enough flat ground to land any of their ships on it.  Good thing you sold the real farm for a fake one!

Apparently that's not how it works. You can buy the beacon but it appears you can then go and stake a claim to any unclaimed piece of real estate and then fly back to HQ and register it. That should limit the amount of land you can buy up and the speed at which it can be bought. If I had any faith in CIG I'd say that meant that they actually decided to put gameplay over profits. As it is I suspect there will be a much bigger area of land available to buy soon.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 30, 2017, 12:19:35 pm
they are probably going to change the terrain generator before you can build anything though
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 01, 2017, 03:07:33 pm
I can't wait for the terrain generator to make someone's pre-sold plot of land without enough flat ground to land any of their ships on it.  Good thing you sold the real farm for a fake one!

Apparently that's not how it works. You can buy the beacon but it appears you can then go and stake a claim to any unclaimed piece of real estate and then fly back to HQ and register it. That should limit the amount of land you can buy up and the speed at which it can be bought. If I had any faith in CIG I'd say that meant that they actually decided to put gameplay over profits. As it is I suspect there will be a much bigger area of land available to buy soon.

What you do is say there's limited amount of land. Hurry up and buy it. Run run run. Get the best spots. Oh no, we've run out of room. I guess we'll make more spots. Sorry guys who raced out to pick the worst spots of the first batch.

Now do they let people sell them?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 07, 2017, 01:55:52 pm
Looks like Star Citizen has some new things to add to their game to make sure they are the most cutting edge.

http://www.gamesradar.com/forget-no-mans-sky-and-star-citizen-is-this-the-most-ambitious-game-ever/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 07, 2017, 02:49:43 pm
Looks like Star Citizen has some new things to add to their game to make sure they are the most cutting edge.

http://www.gamesradar.com/forget-no-mans-sky-and-star-citizen-is-this-the-most-ambitious-game-ever/

Sounds interesting. The fully destructible part gives me pause however - I'm sure this would lead to griefing. Maybe this is something that could be policed or the hit to reputation would be enough of a deterrent? Assuming they can actually build the damn game it certainly looks like a social experiment in waiting.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 07, 2017, 04:38:19 pm
Needs more geomod....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2017, 04:50:10 pm
i really hope that croberts sees this and is like 'i want destructible terrain, i don't care how long it takes' because that will be the final nail in SC's coffin right there and then
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 07, 2017, 05:24:09 pm
I bet he couldn't manage it....even though :v: did it nearly 20 years ago in red faction 1.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 08, 2017, 09:46:55 am
i really hope that croberts sees this and is like 'i want destructible terrain, i don't care how long it takes' because that will be the final nail in SC's coffin right there and then

Quote
Forget No Man’s Sky and Star Citizen: Is this the most ambitious game ever?

Oh they are definitely trolling him.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on December 11, 2017, 04:13:09 pm
.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 11, 2017, 04:15:35 pm
Pffffft Operation Flashpoint Red River had internal guts modelling
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 11, 2017, 06:25:13 pm
Pffffft Operation Flashpoint Red River had internal guts modelling

Welp, now Star Citizen needs accurate colon function modeling and in-game laxatives to justify that system's inclusion.  Emptying the toilet onto the windshield of pursuing vessels is another step closer to reality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 12, 2017, 01:11:55 am
The ultimate reality is that life is finite.

Until Croberts develops an implant that kills you the first time you die in game, it will always be a cheap and imperfect simulation. #****izenbait
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 12, 2017, 06:15:47 am
The ultimate reality is that life is finite.

Until Croberts develops an implant that kills you the first time you die in game, it will always be a cheap and imperfect simulation. #****izenbait


Mhhhhhh finally an idea to get rid of all the griefer a******* once and for all? ;-)

Just tell them it's the "most hardcore game ever" and any game without "true death" is for carebears and they will flock to it right?  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 13, 2017, 12:12:09 pm
In other news: Crytek is sueing CIG

https://www.scribd.com/document/367101474/Crytek-v-CIG (https://www.scribd.com/document/367101474/Crytek-v-CIG)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2017, 12:27:18 pm
Hahahahahaha holy ****. 

SPACE COURT!

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 13, 2017, 01:08:47 pm
SPACE COURT indeed.

It will be interesting if their construct of a dozen interconnected shell companies will help them out in this case.
But if the original licence agreement between Crytek and CIG really contains the things that Crytek is now citing, then it's time to get the popcorn out.

And obviously the original warlord is twittering his fingers off.

Quote
19. Section 2.1.2 of the GLA contained a promise by Defendants to use CryEngine for the development of only one video game. During the negotiation of the terms of the GLA, Crytek made it clear that the game license would not cover anything more.

20. Section 2.1.2 of the GLA expressly states that CIG has a license only to "embed CryEngine in the Game and develop the Game." The GLA limits the use of the CryEngine computer program to a single video game called Star Citizen.

21. Exhibit 2 of the GLA states that "the Game does not include any content  being sold and marketed separately," such as content "sold and marketed as a separate, standalone PC game."

22. On December 16, 2015, Defendants announced that "Squadron 42," a single-player video game involving space combat, would be sold separately from Star Citizen.

23. On January 29, 2016, Defendants made a further public announcement about Squadron 42, stating that it would be made available for purchase as a stand-alone video game.

24. On February 5, 2016, Crytek notified Defendants that their plan to distribute Squadron 42 as a standalone game was not covered by the GLA's license,  because the GLA did not grant Defendants a license to embed CryEngine in any game other than Star Citizen.

25. On February 14, 2016, Defendants moved forward with their plan for Squadron 42 notwithstanding their failure to obtain a license and began offering the video game for separate purchase. As a result, Defendants are intentionally and willfully using CryEngine without a license and in violation of copyright laws.
 
26. On December 23, 2016, in reference to Star Citizen and Squadron 42, Defendants announced that "oth games are currently in development and are  backed by a record-breaking $139 million crowd funded effort."

27. Crytek has not been compensated for Defendants' unlicensed use of Crytek technology in the Squadron 42 game, and has been substantially harmed by  being deprived of that compensation, which would ordinarily include a substantial up-front payment as well as a substantial royalty on game sales.

The list goes on, but these are already some juicy bits
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2017, 01:12:31 pm
Quote
entering a permanent injunction enjoining and restraining Defendants from continuing to possess or use the Copyrighted Work and a  preliminary and permanent injunction requiring Defendants, and all those acting in concert or participation with Defendants, from infringing or encouraging, aiding or abetting others to infringe the Copyrighted Work;

In short: "You can't use any of our technology or anything built upon it."  Which would include **** like the local physics grid and the 64-bit conversion.  On its own, this kills the project.  They'd have to restart their engine development with Lumberyard.  Hell, even Lumberyard might not be an option if Amazon doesn't want to risk being seen as affiliated with CIG over this.

Also, since CIG's agreement with Coutts put up SQ42 as collateral, and SQ42 might not even have a right to exist, Coutts could immediately call in their loan to CIG.  Banks don't usually like it when it turns out a client doesn't own the collateral they put up.


Or maybe I'm misreading this completely because I'm not a lawyer.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on December 13, 2017, 01:27:43 pm
Did they not switched to Lumberyard?

Technically they do not use the license-based CryEngine anymore.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 13, 2017, 01:30:50 pm
Did they not switched to Lumberyard? They do not use CryEngine anymore.

Yeah about that:

Quote
Defendants Broke Its Promise to Exclusively Use CryEngine for the Game
36. Section 2.1.2 of the GLA contained a critical promise from Defendants that they would not develop the Star Citizen video game using any other video game engines.

37. Section 2.1.2 of the GLA states that Defendants have a license only to "exclusively embed CryEngine in the Game."

38. On December 23, 2016, Defendants announced that they were using the Amazon Lumberyard video game engine for Star Citizen. The GLA did not permit Defendants to use any other video game engine in Star Citizen except for CryEngine.

39. Crytek has been damaged by Defendants' breach of Section 2.1.2 of the GLA, including for the reason that Crytek has failed to receive the benefit of the favorable attention that it otherwise would have derived from Defendants' use of CryEngine in Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 13, 2017, 01:41:34 pm
Quote
entering a permanent injunction enjoining and restraining Defendants from continuing to possess or use the Copyrighted Work and a  preliminary and permanent injunction requiring Defendants, and all those acting in concert or participation with Defendants, from infringing or encouraging, aiding or abetting others to infringe the Copyrighted Work;

In short: "You can't use any of our technology or anything built upon it."  Which would include **** like the local physics grid and the 64-bit conversion.  On its own, this kills the project.  They'd have to restart their engine development with Lumberyard.  Hell, even Lumberyard might not be an option if Amazon doesn't want to risk being seen as affiliated with CIG over this.

I think they'd have to go all the way through court before they had to actually stop using stuff based on CryEngine, and they'd probably settle well before that point if it was going that badly. So I wouldn't be too hopeful for a hilarious dramatic collapse here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 13, 2017, 01:54:51 pm

Quote
entering a permanent injunction enjoining and restraining Defendants from continuing to possess or use the Copyrighted Work and a  preliminary and permanent injunction requiring Defendants, and all those acting in concert or participation with Defendants, from infringing or encouraging, aiding or abetting others to infringe the Copyrighted Work;

In short: "You can't use any of our technology or anything built upon it."  Which would include **** like the local physics grid and the 64-bit conversion.  On its own, this kills the project.  They'd have to restart their engine development with Lumberyard.  Hell, even Lumberyard might not be an option if Amazon doesn't want to risk being seen as affiliated with CIG over this.

Also, since CIG's agreement with Coutts put up SQ42 as collateral, and SQ42 might not even have a right to exist, Coutts could immediately call in their loan to CIG.  Banks don't usually like it when it turns out a client doesn't own the collateral they put up.


Or maybe I'm misreading this completely because I'm not a lawyer.
I really hope this is exactly how it is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kobrar44 on December 13, 2017, 01:55:42 pm
So they want compensation for both:
- using CryEngine for more than 1 game
- not using CryEngine
?
What the **** am I reading? Is Crytek just desperate at this point?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 13, 2017, 02:04:44 pm
So they want compensation for both:
- using CryEngine for more than 1 game
- not using CryEngine
?
What the **** am I reading? Is Crytek just desperate at this point?

No, Crytek does have a point here. They signed an agreement with CIG that had a few very specific terms (like only making one game, providing patches, prominently displaying the cryengine logo, keeping the CE source confidential and in-house), and then CIG went and switched to lumberyard, spun off S42, shared their source code with third party studios.... Crytek makes a good point about how CIG is in breach of contract here.
Like all lawsuits like this, this is probably a cash grab heading for a settlement; Crytek is under new ownership, and said owners would really like a return on investment, and getting really particular about licensing agreements is a good way to get there. But that doesn't mean it's meritless in and of itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on December 13, 2017, 02:52:34 pm
There are so many nails and so few coffins....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2017, 04:41:44 pm
I'll break it down as I understand it.

Crytek issues CIG a license to use CryEngine to develop one game: Star Citizen.  They also agree to provide assistance in developing a game with that engine.

In exchange, CIG agree to pay royalties on game sales.  They agree to publicize their use of CryEngine for the game.  They agree to provide Crytek with any bugfixes and other technical improvements they make to the engine.  They also agree not to share proprietary engine source code with third parties.

First few years, no real issues.  CIG develops the game on CryEngine, there's a CryEngine splash screen, yadda yadda yadda.  All the technology CIG builds, they build on CryEngine.

Until CIG spilt SC and SQ42 into separate packages.  Now CIG aren't making one game, they're making two.  But they only paid to make one.  Contract breached.

Then, they switch to Lumberyard.  Now they're not publicizing how they're using CryEngine, obviously because they're not.  They've moved to Lumberyard.  But all the tech they moved over, like the ship-specific local physics grid and the 64-bit precision, that was all built on CryEngine's back, with Crytek assistance, under terms CIG are no longer honoring because they're no longer using CryEngine for the game.  Contract breached.

Bugsmashers.  In videos, CIG show engine data they are not authorized to share.  Contract breached.


Sure, it's probably a cash grab by Crytek, but you can't say they don't have a leg to stand on here.  If this ****'s true, CIG ****ed up hard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 13, 2017, 04:43:51 pm
There are so many nails and so few coffins....

Would JPEGs of coffins be suffecient?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 13, 2017, 04:44:54 pm
Sure, it's probably a cash grab by Crytek, but you can't say they don't have a leg to stand on here.  If this ****'s true, CIG ****ed up hard.

I'd like to think of it as Crytek getting a refund.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 13, 2017, 04:55:07 pm
I'd like to think of it as Crytek getting a refund.

You win the thread.  I actually fell out of my chair laughing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on December 13, 2017, 10:26:31 pm
Sure, it's probably a cash grab by Crytek, but you can't say they don't have a leg to stand on here.  If this ****'s true, CIG ****ed up hard.

I'd like to think of it as Crytek getting a refund.

Closing thread because nothing can top this.

Good run everyone.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 14, 2017, 06:55:09 am

It hasn't happened yet but Leonard French is going to do a show on it I guess and I would trust him mostly in terms of things like this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 14, 2017, 07:04:40 am

It hasn't happened yet but Leonard French is going to do a show on it I guess and I would trust him mostly in terms of things like this.

You gotta remove the whole website part of the link and leave just the youtube video ID if you want to use the yt tags.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 14, 2017, 07:52:29 am
Well I did not know that. Seemed to work fine on my end. Now I know
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 18, 2017, 03:17:58 pm
Please don't go live!

This may be getting good

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 18, 2017, 03:22:30 pm
Quote
Tell him to wait until squadron 42 or 4.0. I love watching and testing what we have now, but SC PU will be rough for a very long time. That doesn't mean we won't get worthwhile updates, it just means that we currently have ~5-10% of Chris Roberts' complete vision. I personally think 80% pays the bills, and since last year, a lot of tech, ships, and systems needed to be reworked.

Of course there will always be the need to innovate on past designs. But in 2018 we should see a lot of growth with the tech tools they have been working on to give to their designers.

This is just sad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 18, 2017, 04:17:05 pm
2015 2016 2017 2018 will be the year that all the work on the pipelines will pay off and development will really pick up and a lot of content will be released.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 18, 2017, 04:39:31 pm
Get a refund and put it in a mutual fund.  On dividends alone, you'll be able to buy a real Space Winnebago, before Chris Roberts delivers the virtual ones he's promised.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2017, 05:15:15 pm
Quote
Tell him to wait until squadron 42 or 4.0. I love watching and testing what we have now, but SC PU will be rough for a very long time. That doesn't mean we won't get worthwhile updates, it just means that we currently have ~5-10% of Chris Roberts' complete vision. I personally think 80% pays the bills, and since last year, a lot of tech, ships, and systems needed to be reworked.

Of course there will always be the need to innovate on past designs. But in 2018 we should see a lot of growth with the tech tools they have been working on to give to their designers.

This is just sad.
It's normal in game development for a game to be under construction for the past 6 years, not have any of the basic core gameplay loops defined, while needing to have most of its assets and systems be reworked. This is good for starcitizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 19, 2017, 06:21:21 am
Don't know what you are all on about. Looks like we'll get everything CR has promised and it won't be long either.  :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuIeKMYaIAk
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 19, 2017, 07:53:05 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/
The reality of things seem to be slowly starting to catch up with the citizens
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 19, 2017, 08:03:53 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/
The reality of things seem to be slowly starting to catch up with the citizens

That guy is indulging in a lot of cognitive dissonance.  It's good, but it's unplayable!  It's the best space sim ever to run at 10fps and crash all the time!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 19, 2017, 10:37:59 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/
The reality of things seem to be slowly starting to catch up with the citizens

Someone missed my post :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 19, 2017, 08:34:21 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/
The reality of things seem to be slowly starting to catch up with the citizens

Someone missed my post :p
Let's just pretend that I totally did, and was merely quoting your post, without actually quoting it..!
 :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on December 20, 2017, 01:21:32 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQTcf2bnRhY
Teaser for SQ42.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 20, 2017, 01:34:49 pm
They've been teasing for the last 6 years now. And again, not an single bit of actual gameplay substance is shown. (because there isn't anything to show)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 20, 2017, 02:09:36 pm
Yeah. That looks like a solidly VA'ed cutscene.... but that's the sort of thing that would have been cool to see 3 years ago? 4 years ago?

Also, why does Hamill's character look like a slackjawed idiot in this scene?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2017, 06:53:10 pm
So Mark Hamill's character is an asshole who only speaks in cliches?

In other news, CIG are not content with the engineering debt they currently have, and clearly the logical thing to do when none of your space sim's core gameplay is in any way complete is to add something you can focus an entire game around: tanks.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/362664170254106624/393111737517342721/Tumbril_Goes_Nova_-_Roberts_Space_Industries.jpg)

Of course, this being CIG, the tank must look extremely boring while also being really dumb design-wise.

But it looks like a dumber PL-01, which is the tank equivalent of SC, so I guess it's appropriate.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on December 20, 2017, 06:58:20 pm
That looks like someone took a really low poly model of an Abrams, moved the vertices of the top-back up, and called it a day.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on December 20, 2017, 07:01:30 pm
Also Mark Hamill sounds unbelievably board. He didn't like what Rian Johnson decided to do with TLJ but he at least appeared to give a ****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2017, 07:23:10 pm
Oh i found a higher resolution screenshot:

(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/0df24fxoeeqsrr/source/TMBL_HeavyTank_ShotE_PJ02-Squashed.jpg)

Shot traps galore.  Also I get that this is ****ty concept art but judging by the two guys in the lower left these tanks are something like 10m+ tall.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 20, 2017, 10:04:56 pm
In other news, CIG are not content with the engineering debt they currently have, and clearly the logical thing to do when none of your space sim's core gameplay is in any way complete is to add something you can focus an entire game around: tanks.

I mean the whole thing has been funded on feature creep from the off, so why not make another $20mil on another promise (and no plan)?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 21, 2017, 01:41:18 am
Oh hi mark.

I mean, it's great for showing off the production capabilities of the CryEngine, but we knew that already. (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/10/pump-up-the-volumetrics-cryengine-3-tech-demo/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 21, 2017, 01:30:06 pm
I like that two discussions somewhat at the top of chats were "What ship are they going to make us get to haul these around?" and "Do we just expect to have guys sitting around in tanks all day defending our outposts while we fly around in space?"

I also enjoy that no one seems to understand how the PU will work

But seriously, tanks?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 21, 2017, 01:36:13 pm
I like that two discussions somewhat at the top of chats were "What ship are they going to make us get to haul these around?" and "Do we just expect to have guys sitting around in tanks all day defending our outposts while we fly around in space?"

I also enjoy that no one seems to understand how the PU will work

But seriously, tanks?

Frankly ... after the "landgrab" earlier ... why even get worked up over "tanks" anymore? I mean how much outrange can anyone still even muster over tanks, when they are pretty much literally selling patches of dirt already?  :p


The next big thing will be BRIDGES, to build on your land, so you can drive your tanks over. Don't forget, I called it first.  :nod:


P.S.: After that: Bridge laying tanks and bridge building ships! They'll make millions more I'm telling ya!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2017, 02:12:36 pm
Quote from: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3189#post479546408
I know where he got this idea. Crobber watched Star Trek 4 and demanded tanks for the whales.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 21, 2017, 02:51:13 pm
Makes sense :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2017, 06:51:11 pm
Fits with them doing all that work on fluid dynamics.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on December 22, 2017, 12:42:10 am
I like that two discussions somewhat at the top of chats were "What ship are they going to make us get to haul these around?" and "Do we just expect to have guys sitting around in tanks all day defending our outposts while we fly around in space?"

I also enjoy that no one seems to understand how the PU will work

But seriously, tanks?

Frankly ... after the "landgrab" earlier ... why even get worked up over "tanks" anymore? I mean how much outrange can anyone still even muster over tanks, when they are pretty much literally selling patches of dirt already?  :p


The next big thing will be BRIDGES, to build on your land, so you can drive your tanks over. Don't forget, I called it first.  :nod:



No, I can tell you because one Youtuber see it already - Artillery ;)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/ILÜ_2012_-_Pzh_2000.jpg
in Space ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2017, 12:57:33 am
Roadside breakdown cover only a grand.   Ammo packs another two hundred.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 22, 2017, 07:15:41 am
Wait til you have to fix your tank or ship and need to actually learn how do it and fix it in game. For realism!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 22, 2017, 07:34:55 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302244418986180608/393550579193872384/Gq4yzc4.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: An4ximandros on December 22, 2017, 08:16:32 am
Please tell me this is a ****ing bad joke. Because it is in real bad taste...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2017, 08:18:31 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302244418986180608/393550579193872384/Gq4yzc4.png)
Concept design jpg of the livestream. Expected release date somewhere in 2019

('live stream' in this case being a prerecorded show streamed 'live' on twitch)

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 22, 2017, 10:25:19 am
Please tell me this is a ****ing bad joke. Because it is in real bad taste...

What's funny is it COULD be true.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on December 22, 2017, 11:14:17 am
(https://i.imgur.com/LYKu0X1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7hHX5n2.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 22, 2017, 02:32:18 pm
Wait, again?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 22, 2017, 02:35:52 pm
This stream they're showing looks like nothing special. It's an fps...... horray?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2017, 04:14:41 pm
Tonks.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2017, 04:39:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/j9eZO9b.png)

Look at all this fidelity.



Also: (https://i.imgur.com/F9rTl2t.jpg)

They made the tank huge just so you could walk around in it. Rather than just make it realistically sized and you just get in through a hatch like non-retarded tanks. Also apparently tanks don't need ground clearance or room for the suspension to move.  Or, you know, an engine.

I've seen Warhammer 40k tanks with more thought put into them than this thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on December 22, 2017, 04:57:02 pm
Tonks.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 22, 2017, 06:17:10 pm
They made the tank huge just so you could walk around in it.

I don't mind that so much as the fact that they managed to make the thing really ugly. If they had the turret be flatter then it could've worked better, like the tanks in Tron.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2017, 08:06:47 pm
I mind it because all that wasted interior space means there's nowhere to put an engine, transmission, suspension, and turret ring.

The turret isn't the problem.  The turret's the best part of it, although if they showed us the insides it would probably be just as dumb as the hull.  The offset gun is the dumbest thing about it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on December 22, 2017, 09:02:14 pm
https://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/cig-announces-star-citizen-squadron-42-system-requirements/1/

They say you'll need at least 16GB of RAM and probably an SSD to play SQ42.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 23, 2017, 06:40:36 am
And judging by the amazing framerate in that stream yesterday, I'm guessing you're going to have an absolutely lovely time with those minimum system requirements.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 23, 2017, 09:10:14 am
An SSD for minimum or recommended requirements just doesn't seem right. It doesn't really do anything for performance, it only shortens load times. An open world game that doesn't even have loading screens should be fine with a 7200 RPM mechanical drive. You'd have to be loading around 50 gigabytes per minute of gameplay for mechanical HDD speeds to become a significant bottleneck. Unless they really ****ed up their background "seamless" loading systems you shouldn't ever have to think about your hard drive speeds.

People don't usually game on SSDs due to how expensive they are per terabyte and how ****ing huge games are nowadays. Most people just have an SSD for their OS and maybe a bit of space left for their most played games.


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 23, 2017, 09:25:24 am
An SSD would speed up the game's performance if it was juggling a lot of crap through virtual memory, despite having 16GB or more of system RAM to work with.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 23, 2017, 09:55:57 am
...and if that's an actual reason CIG had to do this, they are even more incompetent buffoons than I thought they were.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 23, 2017, 11:29:53 am
I've seen a few games recommend SSDs at this point, such as Tacoma (which is a good game!), and Arma 3 definitely works a lot better on an SSD then it does on a hard drive because of all the streaming going on there. It's not that outlandish.

Has anyone seen the SQ42 footage they put up on the livestream?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 23, 2017, 02:32:30 pm
Has anyone seen the SQ42 footage they put up on the livestream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6bWD9ZVgo
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 23, 2017, 06:50:44 pm
As much as i dislike star citizen, i'd like a world where Squadron 42 worked out nicely for us normal people.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on December 23, 2017, 06:54:56 pm
As much as i dislike star citizen, i'd like a world where Squadron 42 worked out nicely for us normal people.

Dito. The combat shown in the video is still pretty crap frankly and the dialogue is incredibly corny ... but that didn't stop Wing Commander 3/4 from being an overall quite enjoyable game either.

The wonkiest part though, I'd say is that the FPS combat looks more solid than the space combat at this point ...   :eek2: :nervous:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 23, 2017, 07:09:48 pm
I dislike the fact there's a Pilot involved in CQM when they have "star marines" visbile.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 23, 2017, 07:10:35 pm
Well it looks nice.  But that was like what, 75% transitting?  Sure it was patrolling but they could at least have had some regular comm chater to break it up.  The atmo portion seemed especially sluggish to me.

The space combat, what little thier was, appeared very simple and uncompelling.   The manuvering was pretty dull, coupled with a lot of spraying lasers and **** at stuff I could barely make out.  (I dunno I prefer dynamic fights with short bursts so maybe its just me)

The FPS component was okay but not anything to write home about.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 23, 2017, 08:35:34 pm
The wonkiest part though, I'd say is that the FPS combat looks more solid than the space combat at this point ...   :eek2: :nervous:

I mean, they're using CryEngine, which was built from the ground up for FPS's.  Where CRoberts (and his money laundering network of companies) has the least technology and fewest gameplay mechanics to build from scratch, there is the least room for crippling ****-ups.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2017, 10:03:49 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/rJwu9t3.png)

I love citizens so much.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 24, 2017, 06:21:31 am
Has anyone seen the SQ42 footage they put up on the livestream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6bWD9ZVgo

Hallway walking simulator 3.0
What I get from this 1 hour snorefest, is that they are going for the Starlancer vibe. All those prerendered clips in Starlancer where you look around in your quarters, click on little popup texts, walk to the briefing room, sit down in the briefing room, listen to cringey dialogue, etc.... it's all there, but now rendered in real time. It was fun to do exactly once in Starlancer and got boring/tedious very fast, I don't see it getting any better here.

Also the space combat looks like nothing I would like to play, at all.

But hey, according to reddit PC gaming is truly saved, so merry Xmas to you all.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 24, 2017, 10:08:33 am
My thoughts on their 'live'stream.

The voice acting ranges from good to bad. Can't dislike Mark Hamill even though his character is written like a jerk. Player character's voice on the other hand is...
Music seemed to be getting a lot of praise from reddit and twitch chat, I personally wanted to turn it off after 10 minutes, it was incredibly bland and generic. ~Opinions~
Actual sound effects, again, ranging from good to bad. A lot of the supporting sound seemed good, but then the gun sounds are just still. so. bad.

Graphics wise, they showed some really nice setpieces. I love that big asteroid that they flew inbetween with the storm effect and all that. It's just a shame its wasted in such a ****ty game.
The interior of the ship looked alright (not in terms of layout, but that aside), I don't like how poorly lit it all is, but the hallways looked alright.
It's just that everything looks so, incredibly, bland. Nothing jumps out to me, the art direction is just so uninspired and generic. A total lack of color in everything. It's like croberts is trying to revive the brown and bloom first person shooter era. Everything was brown. Lack of color does not immersion make!

Gameplay though. What a ****ing snorefest. It looks offensively unfun to play. Endless walking through hallways, long stretches of flying in a straight line. The first person shooting part was just... done better by so many games.
And the space combat. Oh ye gods, the space combat. Why yes, I love to shoot at a far away spec inside orange targetting brackets. Boy, it sure is fun to not see what is being shot at. Spray and pray at the orange bracket! Golly. Pew pew!

Narratively, the constant push for 'muh immersion and fidelity' is actually causing me to be seriously unimmersed by what they show. It's the little things I would normally accept as "its just a game", like grabbing items off a table, just point the crosshair and zip, its in my inventory now. But with starcitizen they try so hard to emulate real life, it becomes jarring when they fail at it. Like when the pistol just teleports into the commando's hand when he reaches out to grab it from the table. In addition to that, its the 'story' that is being presented being full of dumb ****. Why would slavers go out of their way to engage a military fighter, disable it, just to grab the pilot from it. All that, for a single slave? Why leave the ship there? You'd think military grade hardware would sell for more than a singular slave.
Why do two pilots just disregard the mission they were send out for, and **** off to some planet to go save their fellow pilot single-handedly? Can't they just radio home and get a squad of space commandos to raid the slaver compound that they located? If lieutenant lieutenant lieutenant lieutenant lieutenant fails, gets captured or dies. That little frigate with the hangarbay that has space for like, 3 fighters, is going to be short one fighter and one pilot.

Also that Tonk design is so dumb. As Aesaar already pointed out, with all that empty space, where is engine, suspension, shield generator etc etc? With that angled front armor, shells would just bounce straight into the underside of the turret. Nice shottrap design. Making a tank **** yuuuge like that, just to have it be empty space so a commando can walk inside with a straight back is just. so. dumb.

(https://i.imgur.com/rJwu9t3.png)

I love citizens so much.
The goalposts started in the stadium at some point, the citizens have moved them off planet. And each patch they're moving them a few hundred lightyears more.

As much as i dislike star citizen, i'd like a world where Squadron 42 worked out nicely for us normal people.
Same, that what I originally backed for.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on December 24, 2017, 03:17:58 pm
Has anyone seen the SQ42 footage they put up on the livestream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6bWD9ZVgo

Hallway walking simulator 3.0
What I get from this 1 hour snorefest, is that they are going for the Starlancer vibe. All those prerendered clips in Starlancer where you look around in your quarters, click on little popup texts, walk to the briefing room, sit down in the briefing room, listen to cringey dialogue

Awww, but the gratuitously accented dialogue was the best part about Starlancer.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 24, 2017, 05:20:08 pm
Has anyone seen the SQ42 footage they put up on the livestream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6bWD9ZVgo

Thanks for link.

Just shy of 26 minutes before the player can actually engage in gameplay.

This exemplifies a wider problem in the AAA industry of games that want to be movies. Why should anyone sit through 10 minute cutscenes and qte instead of playing the bloody game?! Reminds me of Battlefront too. It looks right, but it doesn't play right.

Merry Christmas/Festivus/Yule.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 25, 2017, 02:36:29 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rJwu9t3.png)

I love citizens so much.

Someone obviously doesn't understand how software development version numbering works.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on December 30, 2017, 06:46:01 pm
So I watched the Squadron 42 video, but not from seeing it here, Youtube put it in my recommended videos, from the official Star Citizen Youtube. It looks to be a better quality video than the one linked earlier.


I actually enjoyed it and watched it all in one sitting. I wondered what you'd have to say about it, but you've already talked about it, and I'm not surprised to see Spoon stripping it apart. From a gameplay standpoint there wasn't much, but it's fine for this level, as it's clearly the first or a very early level, and giving you a taste of all the gameplay mechanics. They can't have too many things trying to kill you right out of the gate. And it's still not over, it's either unfinished or they just chose to stop there, because you were about to get dragged along with the girl who is hopped up on meds, euphoria and bloodlust on a death rampage through the base. I wonder if you take the option not to give her meds if she won't feel up to going on a killing rampage and will just leave the base with you. It might just be though that she can't move so you'll be stuck there with her until you give her the meds rather than it being a meaningful choice. Or she's just like well **** you then and goes to get her gun and start killing. I'm certainly curious if there will be meaningful choices to be made. I really liked the facial work they did with her, she really looks very eager to go off and massacre everyone in that base and enjoy every second of it immensely. She's got the crazy eyes, you can see her fantasising about what she's going to do...

I'm also sure if you were just trying to get through the mission ASAP, it wouldn't take you 26 minutes to get to the first gameplay, you could skip through a ton of that stuff. However, if that's not the case, I wouldn't buy. All such concerns go away if they just add in the ability to open up a menu and choose to start the mission and you're in the cockpit. Not that I'll be buying anyway if you need a ridiculous monster machine just to be able to. If they actually release at all. Pre-alpha footage just before 2018. Maybe it's called Squadron 42 because '42 is the year it gets released. But I did genuinely enjoy watching it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on December 30, 2017, 09:45:58 pm
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/29/16827542/star-citizen-3-0-bugs-crash

"Bugs will get you killed"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mr_Blastman on January 01, 2018, 09:12:14 am
As much as i dislike star citizen, i'd like a world where Squadron 42 worked out nicely for us normal people.

Dito. The combat shown in the video is still pretty crap frankly and the dialogue is incredibly corny ... but that didn't stop Wing Commander 3/4 from being an overall quite enjoyable game either.

The wonkiest part though, I'd say is that the FPS combat looks more solid than the space combat at this point ...   :eek2: :nervous:

This is because for some strange reason Chris Roberts is clinging to Interactive Mode, where mouse players have an extreme advantage by having direct zero order control over their gimbal weapons.  Allowing this turns space combat into a snooze fest.  Strangely... Chris refuses to accept that doing so creates more negatives than positives for the overall game, and forgets his original pledge which meant supporting joystick users.  If the input schemes were balanced properly, the quality of the space combat experience would likely increase.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on January 03, 2018, 07:54:13 am
As much as i dislike star citizen, i'd like a world where Squadron 42 worked out nicely for us normal people.

Dito. The combat shown in the video is still pretty crap frankly and the dialogue is incredibly corny ... but that didn't stop Wing Commander 3/4 from being an overall quite enjoyable game either.

The wonkiest part though, I'd say is that the FPS combat looks more solid than the space combat at this point ...   :eek2: :nervous:

This is because for some strange reason Chris Roberts is clinging to Interactive Mode, where mouse players have an extreme advantage by having direct zero order control over their gimbal weapons.  Allowing this turns space combat into a snooze fest.  Strangely... Chris refuses to accept that doing so creates more negatives than positives for the overall game, and forgets his original pledge which meant supporting joystick users.  If the input schemes were balanced properly, the quality of the space combat experience would likely increase.

Nonsense. Balance? There has never been balance. If anything we shall remove all balance!
-Ulyaoth, CIG game design consultant

In all seriousness, this is just a continuation of a pay-to-win scheme that started the moment buyable ships became a thing. The hardcore fans want this sort of thing - to be on the top floor of the next big thing, among the chosen to be rewarded for their devotion. To be among those who get all the cool toys like starting out with superheavy fighers or access to capital ships that can only be reasonably countered by torpedoes - which, of ocurse, are also a premium user privilege. It is, of course, unfair if you consider it from an angle of "Who would win - one highly skilled but poor user vs. one mediocore pay-to-win whale", but in the minds of those who believe they deserve good things for sticking to their subculture when its future is uncertain, it is only just that they get to lord over the Johnny-Come-Lately peasants and bandwagoners.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on January 03, 2018, 09:05:03 am
This is because for some strange reason Chris Roberts is clinging to Interactive Mode, where mouse players have an extreme advantage by having direct zero order control over their gimbal weapons. 

I believe this is supposed to be balanced by gimbal weapons being weaker than fixed weapons. Not sure what else would you want to do. Remove gimbal weapons completely?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 03, 2018, 09:14:50 am
Nonsense. Balance? There has never been balance. If anything we shall remove all balance!
-Ulyaoth, CIG game design consultant

In all seriousness, this is just a continuation of a pay-to-win scheme that started the moment buyable ships became a thing. The hardcore fans want this sort of thing - to be on the top floor of the next big thing, among the chosen to be rewarded for their devotion. To be among those who get all the cool toys like starting out with superheavy fighers or access to capital ships that can only be reasonably countered by torpedoes - which, of ocurse, are also a premium user privilege. It is, of course, unfair if you consider it from an angle of "Who would win - one highly skilled but poor user vs. one mediocore pay-to-win whale", but in the minds of those who believe they deserve good things for sticking to their subculture when its future is uncertain, it is only just that they get to lord over the Johnny-Come-Lately peasants and bandwagoners.
If this game ever comes out, this is going to be hilarious.  Either ships will take so long to earn you'll have to buy credits with real money to pay for them, or they'll take a sensible amount of time to earn and the people who paid 600$ for their ship will be pissed that the people who didn't back (or, god forbid, refunded) can earn it without paying real money.  Those tears will be delicious.

I believe this is supposed to be balanced by gimbal weapons being weaker than fixed weapons. Not sure what else would you want to do. Remove gimbal weapons completely?
Like everythingelse  SC tries to do, there are games that have done gimballed weapons before and done them better.

Either, yeah, remove them completely because they don't fit the game's style of dogfight (which they definitely don't), or do like Elite Dangerous: make it so they're weaker than fixed weapons, they track automatically, but they're also trivial to spoof with standard countermeasures.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on January 05, 2018, 02:54:49 pm
Nonsense. Balance? There has never been balance. If anything we shall remove all balance!
-Ulyaoth, CIG game design consultant

In all seriousness, this is just a continuation of a pay-to-win scheme that started the moment buyable ships became a thing. The hardcore fans want this sort of thing - to be on the top floor of the next big thing, among the chosen to be rewarded for their devotion. To be among those who get all the cool toys like starting out with superheavy fighers or access to capital ships that can only be reasonably countered by torpedoes - which, of ocurse, are also a premium user privilege. It is, of course, unfair if you consider it from an angle of "Who would win - one highly skilled but poor user vs. one mediocore pay-to-win whale", but in the minds of those who believe they deserve good things for sticking to their subculture when its future is uncertain, it is only just that they get to lord over the Johnny-Come-Lately peasants and bandwagoners.
If this game ever comes out, this is going to be hilarious.  Either ships will take so long to earn you'll have to buy credits with real money to pay for them, or they'll take a sensible amount of time to earn and the people who paid 600$ for their ship will be pissed that the people who didn't back (or, god forbid, refunded) can earn it without paying real money.  Those tears will be delicious.
Do you really think there will be tears if people can earn what others have paid for in a reasonable timeframe? I would have thought the default assumption for a ship buyer would be that it wouldn't be too long before other people who didn't pay for it would be flying something in your weight class.

If such a thing would bother someone, it doesn't make sense for them to buy if they don't know.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 06, 2018, 05:08:10 am
Nonsense. Balance? There has never been balance. If anything we shall remove all balance!
-Ulyaoth, CIG game design consultant

In all seriousness, this is just a continuation of a pay-to-win scheme that started the moment buyable ships became a thing. The hardcore fans want this sort of thing - to be on the top floor of the next big thing, among the chosen to be rewarded for their devotion. To be among those who get all the cool toys like starting out with superheavy fighers or access to capital ships that can only be reasonably countered by torpedoes - which, of ocurse, are also a premium user privilege. It is, of course, unfair if you consider it from an angle of "Who would win - one highly skilled but poor user vs. one mediocore pay-to-win whale", but in the minds of those who believe they deserve good things for sticking to their subculture when its future is uncertain, it is only just that they get to lord over the Johnny-Come-Lately peasants and bandwagoners.
If this game ever comes out, this is going to be hilarious.  Either ships will take so long to earn you'll have to buy credits with real money to pay for them, or they'll take a sensible amount of time to earn and the people who paid 600$ for their ship will be pissed that the people who didn't back (or, god forbid, refunded) can earn it without paying real money.  Those tears will be delicious.
Do you really think there will be tears if people can earn what others have paid for in a reasonable timeframe? I would have thought the default assumption for a ship buyer would be that it wouldn't be too long before other people who didn't pay for it would be flying something in your weight class.

If such a thing would bother someone, it doesn't make sense for them to buy if they don't know.

60 gameplay hours to earn a Constellation has been thrown around ages ago. No idea how accurate that still is or ever was. (Probably like everything else: "Pffffffffft did we really say that a year ago? Who cares, here's another ship sale!")
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 06, 2018, 05:18:12 am
If such a thing would bother someone, it doesn't make sense for them to buy if they don't know.

Right, but then you are assuming that common sense enters the equation of people buying into hundreds (or even thousands) of dollars of pre-order bonuses for a game that is still very far away from release. If so-called whales were rational there wouldn't be entire business models banking on exploiting them, yet here we are.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 08, 2018, 12:42:53 pm
Exactly. Why expect a reasonable reaction from someone who spends thousands on jpegs, for a game that doesn't exist? The whales will become pissed off no matter what the progression system is. It'll be glorious to watch. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 08, 2018, 01:47:15 pm
Leonard French seems to think this lawsuit is over and Crytek really doesn't have a leg to stand on but Derek Smart things this is a slam dunk for Crytek. I guess we will see but French is (copyright) lawyer and well, Derek Smart.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on January 09, 2018, 07:34:12 am
I think the main issue at play here is how to interpret that exclusivity deal. It makes no sense to me that anyone reasonable would interpret the exclusivity agreement to be binding on Crytek.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on January 09, 2018, 08:02:19 am
Probably why Crytek/Skadden requested a jury trial.  Easier to argue the spirit of a clause to a jury.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on January 09, 2018, 02:44:52 pm
But it's equally easy to argue that Crytek is trying to use copyright to squeeze money out of CIG. This could go either way.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 09, 2018, 03:07:22 pm
Exactly. Why expect a reasonable reaction from someone who spends thousands on jpegs, for a game that doesn't exist? The whales will become pissed off no matter what the progression system is. It'll be glorious to watch. :)

I doubt that it will be glorious though. If anything, I feel like you're getting overhyped about the implosion of the hype.
I've seen to much sad overentitled men yelling about immaterial things on the internet to know it tends to be devoid of any entertainment value.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on January 09, 2018, 04:36:48 pm
Exactly. Why expect a reasonable reaction from someone who spends thousands on jpegs, for a game that doesn't exist? The whales will become pissed off no matter what the progression system is. It'll be glorious to watch. :)
I suppose I'm thinking the whales must be doing something right to have that money in the first place. There are way too many for it to be just people who had the silver spoon in their mouths.

Also, they know Star Citizen has been having tons of trouble and they're not getting emotional about it.

But I will freely admit I don't understand how their minds work. It's one thing if you're just loaded and it's next to nothing to you, but the people who've spent a big chunk of their total worldly possessions on it...

It can't really be just because they want to bully people who start with a basic package. Surely. There are far cheaper ways to do that, that can be done right now instead of maybe, sometime in the future.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on January 09, 2018, 04:46:26 pm
It can't really be just because they want to bully people who start with a basic package. Surely.
Oh sweet summer child...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on January 09, 2018, 05:30:18 pm
Exactly. Why expect a reasonable reaction from someone who spends thousands on jpegs, for a game that doesn't exist? The whales will become pissed off no matter what the progression system is. It'll be glorious to watch. :)
I suppose I'm thinking the whales must be doing something right to have that money in the first place. There are way too many for it to be just people who had the silver spoon in their mouths.

Going by the estimate of one million offered by the BBC, the 1 percent of Star Citizens still number 10,000. There's definitely people among them for whom this is going to be small change (http://www.pcgamer.com/meet-a-fan-who-has-spent-30000-on-star-citizen-ships/), there is people for whom this is a significant amount of money.

But I can safely say that none of those 10,000 have been in a position where they had to count every penny.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 14, 2018, 11:26:55 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7q9zvs/pay_to_win/

Just gonna leave this here
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 14, 2018, 03:16:41 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7q9zvs/pay_to_win/

Just gonna leave this here

[deleted]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on January 15, 2018, 02:31:59 pm
It still boggles my mind to see people using the future tense to talk about this project.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 10, 2018, 03:25:06 pm
Has it been mentioned yet that, according to reddit and mmorpg.com they are refusing refunds now?

Looks like the end is coming finally.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on February 10, 2018, 04:17:07 pm
Has it been mentioned yet that, according to reddit and mmorpg.com they are refusing refunds now?

Looks like the end is coming finally.

Start of the Star Citizen-pocolypse. It's really turned into a meta game at this point. Ie everyone invests then its a race to see who can figure out it won't succeed that fastest.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 11, 2018, 01:18:13 am
I need a list of people still supporting this so I can sell them-
Oxygen
Empire state building
Etc
Etc
Etx
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 11, 2018, 05:54:53 am
Open bets. What is going to die first:

 - Star Citizen

 - Bitcoin
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on February 11, 2018, 11:29:19 am
(https://i.imgur.com/fTNyEPH.jpg)

The Falcon Heavy is nothing compared to Star Citizen.  You're hearing this straight from CIG's public Twitter feed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on February 11, 2018, 12:02:32 pm
And I thought the PR bar couldn't get any more desperate.... And I think they meant to say "design a universe of JPGs."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 11, 2018, 01:13:20 pm
Design a universe???

They've not even got a complete system yet.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on February 11, 2018, 02:39:19 pm
I mean its not like its rocket science... oh wait.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 11, 2018, 03:08:09 pm
Design a universe???

They've not even got a complete system yet.
Or basic gamemechanics. Like say, an economy.
Or working doors.

Reminder that we've been following this garbage fire, burn for 7 years now. (we're all getting progressively really old)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on February 11, 2018, 08:40:19 pm
https://www.pcgamer.com/if-you-steal-a-ship-in-star-citizen-it-will-disappear-when-you-log-out-of-the-game/

After logging out you won't be able to keep ships you've stolen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on February 12, 2018, 01:00:30 am
Reminder that we've been following this garbage fire, burn for 7 years now. (we're all getting progressively really old)

I backed the thing originally as a wide eyed high schooler and now here I am a grandpa of a grad student and they're at about the same point as when I was actually sort of invested in the thing and had given them money.

Now I have my money back and still nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on February 12, 2018, 04:58:34 am
https://www.pcgamer.com/if-you-steal-a-ship-in-star-citizen-it-will-disappear-when-you-log-out-of-the-game/

After logging out you won't be able to keep ships you've stolen.

Very immersive.

The saddest thing is that the article even points out something better they could have done. But obviously modelling fluid dynamics for a glass of whiskey is more important to immersion than having stuff suddenly vanish. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 12, 2018, 10:46:43 am
For some of the money they could have shipped games with a good bottle of single malt instead of wasting time on something silly.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 12, 2018, 02:19:06 pm
Yeah the failure of this game to me was proof positive when I saw that Squadron 42 gameplay trailer.  It literally had like an hour of game play and in all that time you fought like two fighters, and that fight looked pretty lame.  The rest of it was basically a glorified tech-demo/walking simulator.  Very little gameplay to speak of. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on February 20, 2018, 01:23:33 am
https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/12/16997396/star-citizen-better-business-bureau-terms-of-service-changes

SC has met with the BBB.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 20, 2018, 01:40:31 am
Quote
CIG is not currently a member of the BBB, nor do they plan to join.

Ass covering PR.   I'm more curious about the aeigis sabre you get with new Intel SSD's referenced in the article.


Curious as a marketing / previously unknown to me revenue stream?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on February 24, 2018, 01:21:59 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7zrndp/so_bind_culling_pushed_to_32_dammit/

Also:

(https://i.imgur.com/tejtnFi.png)

Good times over there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on February 24, 2018, 01:39:38 pm
So translated that means "we have to invent cold fusion" then this game will be on its way to being complete. 

Honestly for the same amount of manpower and money it probably would be easier to make a cold fusion reactor to power they serves they will need  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 24, 2018, 11:03:05 pm
Nothing in that is new. It's exactly how Elite Dangerous operates, something croberts and the Citizens were openly derisive about not that long ago.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on February 25, 2018, 12:57:19 am
Nuh uh, Starcitizen did it first. Frontier Developments will be begging CIG to get a license to this new technology.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on February 25, 2018, 04:42:49 am
Nothing in that is new. It's exactly how Elite Dangerous operates, something croberts and the Citizens were openly derisive about not that long ago.
Actually, reading that quote again it looks like the implementation is very close to what EVE does- a server per region or busy system.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on February 27, 2018, 02:08:56 am
Nothing in that is new. It's exactly how Elite Dangerous operates, something croberts and the Citizens were openly derisive about not that long ago.
How can any architecture that involves a dedicated server be "exactly what E:D does" when E:D uses P2P rather than dedicated servers? There are definitely servers for the background sim stuff, but any time you drop out of SC to go pew pew, that's P2P.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on February 27, 2018, 04:42:52 am
Nothing in that is new. It's exactly how Elite Dangerous operates, something croberts and the Citizens were openly derisive about not that long ago.
How can any architecture that involves a dedicated server be "exactly what E:D does" when E:D uses P2P rather than dedicated servers? There are definitely servers for the background sim stuff, but any time you drop out of SC to go pew pew, that's P2P.

What I was referring to was not the specific implementation of instancing, but the fact that there's instancing at all. Wasn't one of the promises they made that that wouldn't be happening?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on February 27, 2018, 04:55:56 am
Nothing in that is new. It's exactly how Elite Dangerous operates, something croberts and the Citizens were openly derisive about not that long ago.
How can any architecture that involves a dedicated server be "exactly what E:D does" when E:D uses P2P rather than dedicated servers? There are definitely servers for the background sim stuff, but any time you drop out of SC to go pew pew, that's P2P.

What I was referring to was not the specific implementation of instancing, but the fact that there's instancing at all. Wasn't one of the promises they made that that wouldn't be happening?

That was the moment where anyone with a little MMO experience knew for certain they were talking out of their a...    err i mean "behind". :-)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 01, 2018, 02:28:48 pm
At first I thought this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzjCJqF3Urw loop of procedural food making was an april fool's. A bit of self-aware humor.
But then again... is it? How can you even tell anymore?


(https://ibin.co/w800/3wussKUJfmxR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8Sg90Jq.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 02, 2018, 07:57:44 am
A two hour wait for a fried egg is star citizen in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on April 02, 2018, 08:27:49 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8Sg90Jq.gif)
I see you baby... Shakin' that ass... Shakin' that ass... Shakin' that ass...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on April 02, 2018, 09:27:05 am
What's impressive is that they appear to have discovered twerk-based propulsion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 02, 2018, 09:28:20 am
Bexley girls mastered that decades ago ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on April 02, 2018, 01:55:16 pm
Dead or Alive jiggle physics got nothing on this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on April 02, 2018, 05:01:10 pm
Dial 1-900-MIX-A-LOT
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on April 02, 2018, 05:11:29 pm
https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-squadron-42-video-capital-ships/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on April 03, 2018, 03:17:22 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/1QuMpFS.png)

https://youtu.be/4-xa9j7xvws?t=1651
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 09, 2018, 08:10:52 am
A two hour wait for a fried egg is star citizen in a nutshell.

Mhh ... you mean a two hour wait for a fried egg, after which you get the broken eggshell instead of the egg.  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on April 10, 2018, 07:00:07 am
In other lulz today, Dr. Smart got himself perma-banned from SA due to repeated doxxing. The last straw was the doxxing of a certain Kazan... yes the very same one. Apparently Kazan spends his days now in slapfights on reddit, explaining to plebs how they don't understand game development. Somehow this is not surprising.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on April 10, 2018, 07:12:40 am
I saw that and laughed. I knew instantly it was the same Kazan.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 10, 2018, 09:21:17 am
For what its worth, linking to someone's twitter and other publicly available social media profiles isn't really doxxing. That's stuff you can find with a single google search.
But hey, they told him repeatedly not to do it regardless so.

Lol either way, Doctor smart getting himself banned again and butting heads with Kazan is funny in any context.
And man, Kazan's twitter is just one long stream of insults and calling people names. Talk about an abrasive personality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on April 10, 2018, 01:17:38 pm
Makes me wonder if they butted heads when he came here wondering about buying the rights to FreeSpace.

The answer is yes, yes they did. I doubt Derek even remembers him. It's kind of fun to go see that thread in the classics. It was almost 14 years ago.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on April 10, 2018, 05:27:36 pm
It's very important to Kazan that everyone knows he has a very important (and relevant to game development) job at a fortune 100 company, that he takes super cool vacations, and that he has super hot girlfriends.  His credentials were verified by a mod on r/starcitizen, you see. 

Also, he bids me tell you that this thread is very sad and that HLP should know better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on April 10, 2018, 06:14:19 pm
Now if only Spoon would stop doxxing those poor defenseless bugs.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 10, 2018, 07:28:36 pm
Now if only Spoon would stop doxxing those poor defenseless bugs.
I won't stop unless I get banned!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 13, 2018, 03:30:00 pm
So in the latest sale they are asking for cash if you want the new jpg with "lifetime insurance". Store credit only 6 month insurance, which is a first for a new jpg. Forum uproar naturally ensues with the usual clash of the outraged and the staunch CIG defenders. /popcorn

Simply tightening the screws yet again or getting truly desperate now?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 13, 2018, 03:46:47 pm
When is this supposed insurance suppose to take effect anyway? When the game is 'released'? Does the game in its current tech demo buggy ****ty state have any point for this 'insurance'?

What is store credit even good for lol
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on April 13, 2018, 05:10:05 pm
(https://johnsimonds.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/money-down-toilet.jpg)

If that was a Star Citizen jpg, I bet some people would still buy it. Just slap the logo on the toilet.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 13, 2018, 05:24:39 pm
(https://ibin.co/3yHwo4rRjP1f.jpg)
Only $599, special limited sale.
Store credit not usable for this particular jpg.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on April 13, 2018, 05:27:21 pm
(https://ibin.co/3yHwo4rRjP1f.jpg)
Only $599, special limited sale.
Store credit not usable for this particular jpg.
Oh you. :lol: :yes:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on April 19, 2018, 11:14:09 pm
Maybe the launch of NASA's TESS satellite (the mission is to look for new planets) will inspire CR to make more in SC or get what he has out quicker... :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on April 20, 2018, 01:39:50 pm
It will inspire Croberts to build an actual satellite and sell jpegs of the planets it finds
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on April 20, 2018, 02:52:14 pm
It will inspire Croberts to build an actual satellite and sell jpegs of the planets it finds

tbf I would love to see another take on the space telescope.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on April 20, 2018, 03:09:22 pm
It will inspire Croberts to build an actual satellite and sell jpegs of the planets it finds

tbf I would love to see another take on the space telescope.

:grin: They (the government in this case) actually sold deeds to real star system in Liu Cixin's excellent Rememberance of Earth's past trilogy to fund the fledgling space industry.

This is gonna be a thing in real life as well. Ya bet it will be at some point. After all who's gonna say no to paying off all national debt and let some billionaire's have some claim to some distant star no one's ever gonna reach in the next couple hundred years, if at all anyways. But hey, you can say you own a Star. And just imagine THAT as a gift.... what girl would say no?  :nod: ;7 :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on April 25, 2018, 11:35:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcPsIwC-pU

"Down The Rabbit Hole" looks at Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on May 06, 2018, 11:03:29 am
Nothing particularly special, but I saw this on reddit today and had a chuckle - https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8hdij5/just_for_fun_here_are_the_sc_release_plans_from/

There's a surprisingly healthy amount of scepticism to be found in the comments along with the usual cultist fare.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on May 09, 2018, 09:43:51 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8i1ush/i_wasnt_going_to_buy_anymore_ships_but_the_level/

Our dear Kazan, seeing how pissed people were getting at CIG's moneygrubbing, decided to spite the haters by giving CIG 300$.

He's not insecure at all.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on May 09, 2018, 11:54:15 pm
Who says you can't go home?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 10, 2018, 05:41:09 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8i1ush/i_wasnt_going_to_buy_anymore_ships_but_the_level/

Our dear Kazan, seeing how pissed people were getting at CIG's moneygrubbing, decided to spite the haters by giving CIG 300$.

He's not insecure at all.
Haha this guy is something.

Quote from: Kazan
Guys like me who have money to throw at the game help subsidize all the people who aren't so fortunate in employment but want to enjoy the game. What else am i going to do with the money? pass it on to my kids? OH WAIT I HAD A VASECTOMY!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on May 10, 2018, 05:50:11 am
Date Registered: 17 January 2009, 19:23:53

Yeah, you wouldn't remember Kazan then (unless you lurked before joining). Check the whole Classics forum for the Derek Smart/FS3 thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0) if you want to know why he's so happy to stick it to DS.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 10, 2018, 05:57:26 am
I remember the first time I got to HLP (it was actually the first time I ever went to a forum) and read "Derek Smart" I thought it's a meme for being horribly dump. Turns out his name just happens to be an oxymoron.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on May 10, 2018, 07:28:58 am
Well, Unholy Alliance was atleast bugged and sometimes hard to understand like many Battlecruiser titles :).

Even i think that Universal Combat 2.0 and games like All aspect warfare and Angle of attack are not soo[...] bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on May 10, 2018, 07:58:22 am
I remember the first time I got to HLP (it was actually the first time I ever went to a forum) and read "Derek Smart" I thought it's a meme for being horribly dump. Turns out his name just happens to be an oxymoron.

It's not nearly as good as that Indycar driver "Will Power".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on May 10, 2018, 12:49:33 pm
The stock car driver Dick Trickle has him beaten.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on May 10, 2018, 12:54:45 pm
The stock car driver Dick Trickle has him beaten.

Yeah, fair enough.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 10, 2018, 01:10:57 pm
Date Registered: 17 January 2009, 19:23:53

Yeah, you wouldn't remember Kazan then (unless you lurked before joining). Check the whole Classics forum for the Derek Smart/FS3 thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0) if you want to know why he's so happy to stick it to DS.
I know of Kazan's reputation and that thread. I'm just going "so the legends about him are true" right now. Because evidently he hasn't changed (for the better) over the years.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 10, 2018, 04:52:29 pm
Yeah he's a proper spunk bubble......  One that won't pop.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 10, 2018, 07:25:05 pm
300 bucks for a JPEG. More money than brains
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on May 10, 2018, 08:41:12 pm
At least he's made it really clear in the comments that he exited the gene pool.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Torchwood on May 18, 2018, 12:56:40 pm
He might not have financial acumen, but at least he can claim a Darwin award.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on May 31, 2018, 10:49:04 am
Just in case any of you have an extra $27,000 sitting around....

https://kotaku.com/star-citizen-now-has-a-27-000-ship-pack-1826404455

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 31, 2018, 11:04:13 am
(https://ibin.co/3yHwo4rRjP1f.jpg)
Only $599, special limited sale.
Store credit not usable for this particular jpg.

Only $27.000, special limited sale.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on May 31, 2018, 11:08:13 am
$28,000 really. Because it's only open to people who have already wasted spent $1000 on Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on May 31, 2018, 11:15:29 am
(https://ibin.co/3yHwo4rRjP1f.jpg)
Only $599, special limited sale.
Store credit not usable for this particular jpg.

Only $27.000, special limited sale.
The bucket full of cash isn't enough for this one... :nono:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 31, 2018, 11:35:43 am
The bucket full of cash isn't enough for this one... :nono:

If you take 500$, it works, and you don't have to call a plumber afterwards. :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on June 04, 2018, 02:23:50 pm
So have they made any development progress since the last demo where buggies wheels blow up and players turn inside out?  Or are they still leveraging feature creep to avoid deliverable?  :drevil:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 04, 2018, 02:32:03 pm
So have they made any development progress since the last demo where buggies wheels blow up and players turn inside out?  Or are they still leveraging feature creep to avoid deliverable?  :drevil:
Search your heart... What does it tell you?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: JGZinv on June 04, 2018, 02:35:14 pm
Hell I'm trying to sell some old limited ships just for living expenses, the grey market isn't great either.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 04, 2018, 09:45:08 pm
I will sell pencil sketches of an interpretation of Croberts sense of self worth for a limited time one-off low low price of £5k
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 05, 2018, 07:13:44 pm
It used to be that you could sell non-LTI ships at pledge store cost on the grey market, and LTI ships at significantly higher than pledge store cost.  I sold a 180$ LTI Super Hornet + game package for 320$ in 2014.  I doubt I'd get half that now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: JGZinv on June 07, 2018, 03:36:25 pm
It's because they've changed how selling works, you can only gift once and buybacks are different.
Plus they flooded the market with variants of formally number limited ships that they promised would not be offered again.

Like I have a Connie Phoenix CCU, well for St. Patrick's Day they came out with a green variant with some extra doodads. Guess who's resale value got flushed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 07, 2018, 07:35:44 pm
Old news but its nice seeing sensible youtubers calling starcitizen for what it really is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 07, 2018, 07:39:56 pm
I've no interest in watching anything other than glitch vids,  I do however reckon this will be free to play on playstation 8 in the year 2035.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on June 07, 2018, 07:48:02 pm
And then only "Almost Every Ship". :nono: For that you should be able to import every ship into the game you want.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on June 07, 2018, 09:48:03 pm
How glad i am that this game is not pay to win and i can unlock all these ships in a matter of a few hours.

My biggest concern always was, that i hope, there will be not too much "Ship unlocked" popups at the same time. I mean.. if you unlock hundreds of ships during a handful of hours it can easily happen, that you lose track about all these messages.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on June 08, 2018, 05:27:36 am
Will Final Fantasy 7:  Remake get released before this?  That's another anticipated game I've heard is having troubles.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 08, 2018, 06:52:10 am
I truly believe it will.   :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on June 08, 2018, 09:56:57 am
Of course it will. In comparsion to the holy Star Citizen Final Fantasy is nothing more than a Mini game. I am sure, Star Citizen will get game rooms on the planets and space stations, maybe a whole planet that is themed around Game Rooms, where you can play games that are even bigger than Final Fantasy.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on June 08, 2018, 10:04:24 am
Final Fantasy: released several parts already...
Star Citizen: well...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 08, 2018, 10:03:57 pm
But what's been released of SC is already one of the best games ever made.  Better than many AAA titles out there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 08, 2018, 10:56:09 pm
For only many many many many many many many times the cost.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on June 10, 2018, 04:35:55 am
Final Fantasy: released several parts already...
Star Citizen: well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jj3aWrgbbo

Speculation on if FF7R will be at E3.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 10, 2018, 08:12:36 am
I'm baffled why anyone gives two ****s about a remake of an RPG. I get that it's one of the most famous FF games, and its one of the defining games of the early PS platform but it's a story- and stories are only experienced for the first time once so unless they drastically alter what happens, existing fans will already know the outcome and story beats.  And if they do heavily alter the story, is it still FF7? 

It might be interesting to see what this game doesn't differently from the old one but that's an exercise, not an experience. People looking for a hit of nostalgia and recapturing of youth would be better served by booting up the old game for the memories it will invoke.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 10, 2018, 10:47:54 am
Same reason people watched the original trilogy remastered I guess.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on June 10, 2018, 02:28:32 pm
I'm baffled why anyone gives two ****s about a remake of an RPG. I get that it's one of the most famous FF games, and its one of the defining games of the early PS platform but it's a story- and stories are only experienced for the first time once so unless they drastically alter what happens, existing fans will already know the outcome and story beats.  And if they do heavily alter the story, is it still FF7? 

It might be interesting to see what this game doesn't differently from the old one but that's an exercise, not an experience. People looking for a hit of nostalgia and recapturing of youth would be better served by booting up the old game for the memories it will invoke.
Becauuuuse being an early PS1 title, the game looks like complete ass now?  And most people love re-experiencing their favorite stories.  You might as well ask why anyone would bother replaying FS1/2 with the MediaVPs enabled.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 10, 2018, 03:49:09 pm
And some people might not have played the original version when it was new, and can't now because of the ass-lookingness of it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 10, 2018, 04:18:09 pm
I'm baffled why anyone gives two ****s about a remake of an RPG. I get that it's one of the most famous FF games, and its one of the defining games of the early PS platform but it's a story- and stories are only experienced for the first time once so unless they drastically alter what happens, existing fans will already know the outcome and story beats.  And if they do heavily alter the story, is it still FF7? 

It might be interesting to see what this game doesn't differently from the old one but that's an exercise, not an experience. People looking for a hit of nostalgia and recapturing of youth would be better served by booting up the old game for the memories it will invoke.
Becauuuuse being an early PS1 title, the game looks like complete ass now?  And most people love re-experiencing their favorite stories.  You might as well ask why anyone would bother replaying FS1/2 with the MediaVPs enabled.

Yeah but its a REMAKE not an Enhanced Edition. They wont be re-experiencing the same story, they are being retold an altered version of the story with different mechanics, cutscenes and so on.  For example the battle system is real time action with character swapping instead of turn-based.

And some people might not have played the original version when it was new, and can't now because of the ass-lookingness of it.

Unless those people are Final Fantasy fans I'm not sure why they would care.  Like everyone says Planescape torment is amazing, I've only played a few minutes of it, but if someone re-made it to be a Witcher/Dragons Dogma style 3rd person RPG would there be a big buzz around it?

What's odder is that remaking a story-based game seems akin to remaking a movie, and I don't get the impression that most people are thrilled to see their favourite old movies re-made.  People love their favourite movies cleaned up and re-released on bluray/HD digital but, re-made?

For games there's not really a comparative example I can think of since most re-made games are either action games or re-imaginings, or just lack the popularity (Bionic Commando, Master Blaster, Boy & his Blob) but if for example X Com: Enemy Unknown was the same as it is except it used Xcom: The Bureau's combat system would it have had the same reception?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 10, 2018, 05:04:10 pm
I think you're forgetting that starcitizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 10, 2018, 05:15:02 pm
I preferred the war of the worlds remake to the original
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on June 10, 2018, 05:46:37 pm
I think that remakes for video games are useful. A movie from the 1930s can be restored to be look perfect on a BluRay. Because there are old movie roles, you can use as a Master.

But you do not have this for a video game. Video games can look and play very dated. Video games can be getting much older than movies.

So yes, a remake is actually useful. You can get an older game and to make it feel like a complete new one. A remake is actually much more desireable than a remaster in an interactive media like video games. Because video games are simply played differently today than twenty years ago, also as i said, they simply look old and plays old, too. A movie is still a movie you can watch and the most problem of older movies are actually computer generated special effects, because they were created from the same limitations as video games. But otherwise, in Movies you do not have technical reasons to create a remake. Old movies can still look like new ones. Sure there are movies, where a remake would also be better, but mostly because the original is a bad movie due to a bad script.

But video games get bad, because they look old and does not offer gameplay mechanics current game in the genre has.

Age of Empire: DE is a good example for a game, where a remake would be much better than a Remaster... because in its core they kept the same game, but made the graphics better... this contrast is simply destroying the Zeitgeist this game has. Because it looks new, but it still has the old gameplay which does not feel right to such graphics. In comparsion to Starcraft 2, Grey Goo or Ashes of Singularity... ouch. And these are the titles a newly released RTS has to compete with. It is not 1998 anymore.


Yes, you are right, for the few people that still love a game from 20 years ago, they do not need a Remake or even Remaster. But it is a complete new game with an old story for a new generation of players. I do not see the problem in this. It would be much worse if they would release the same old game with a few new graphics only and make the impression, that they are simple ignoring all the developments the genre has in the last two decades.

If there were no SCP and FreeSpace 2 with the graphics of FSO 3.8 and MVP2014 would be released as an official remaster by Interplay, i actually would dislike this kind of release, because the gameplay is simply still the same from two decades ago with all the very confusing control options for new players (i do not know a person who need more than 1/4 of all the individual keys the game has to offer), lacking a good controller support (joysticks are nothing more than a gimmick today, that's just how it is) or that you have to create a good controller config for yourself, the extreme long loading times by today standards and some convenience options especially on the lower difficult settings. And even there were not much gameplay developments in this genre since the original, at least there were some and they should be considered and not be ignored. Some of these developments are even part of some SCP campaigns during the last couple of years.

So a remake is not for the people from back then, it is for the people from today.

And i think that some of you have children already? Would it not be good, that your child can comprehend your feelings you had as you experienced the story of FF7 for the first time? If you give show your child the PSX original it would maybe say "What? You played this ugly and unintuitive ****?" instead.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on June 10, 2018, 08:50:17 pm
I think that remakes for video games are useful. A movie from the 1930s can be restored to be look perfect on a BluRay. Because there are old movie roles, you can use as a Master.

But you do not have this for a video game. Video games can look and play very dated. Video games can be getting much older than movies.
Keep all in mind that when talkies and colour came out studios remade many of their best hits with sound and colour.
Ben Hur is a famous example in that regard, we have a silent b&w version in 35mm and a colour sound version in wide format film.

Of course sometimes a remake can use the same premise but do something different with it even if it's the same author like Hitchcock when he remade his own movie The Man That Knew Too Much, and this FF7 remake seem to be largely the same deal which means that unless the remake is an unmitigated disaster there will be both people that prefer the original and the new one.

Another thing we have to keep in mind is that a limit of videogames is that they are tied to their platform, getting an old game on a new PC or console to work is not as straightforward as scanning the original negative of a film using a UHD sensor. Sometimes a "copypaste" remaster of a videogame is necessary just for the sake of compatibility, think of all the people that have troubles with retail Freespace 2 because it refuses to recognize their keyboard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on June 10, 2018, 10:13:52 pm
Maybe in the future CIG will remake Star Citizen. Before they've finished making it. :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on June 11, 2018, 03:09:26 am
Maybe in the future CIG will remake Star Citizen. Before they've finished making it. :P

I think that's what is pretty much going on continuously at CIG.  I like to imagine SC is a self cannibalizing Shivan nightmare fuel furnace as depicted in BP.   Only instead of randomly gestating a super predator fit to conquer the current sapient species that needs stomping nothing makes it past Alpha before it gets nommed by new features.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 11, 2018, 10:33:41 am
Yes, you are right, for the few people that still love a game from 20 years ago, they do not need a Remake or even Remaster. But it is a complete new game with an old story for a new generation of players. I do not see the problem in this. It would be much worse if they would release the same old game with a few new graphics only and make the impression, that they are simple ignoring all the developments the genre has in the last two decades.

Yeah but it's the players who played 20 years ago who are losing their **** for the remake, or at least that's my perception.

If you give show your child the PSX original it would maybe say "What? You played this ugly and unintuitive ****?" instead.

Kids play minecraft, roblox, garry's mod etcetera, I think they care far less about graphics than the rest of us.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 11, 2018, 11:01:07 am
FF7 is pretty ugly these days though. The NTSC-resolution field graphics look ugly no matter how many deblocking filters you apply to them, there's an inexplicable art shift happening every time we go from field to combat (i.e. character models in the field are chibi-style, in combat, things get more realistic), the UI is clunky and unintuitive in places.

Minecraft looks the same no matter the resolution you play it at. FF7 looks bad on anything except a PAL/NTSC TV.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 11, 2018, 11:54:09 am
there's an inexplicable art shift happening every time we go from field to combat (i.e. character models in the field are chibi-style, in combat, things get more realistic)
That has been a thing with final fantasy in pretty much every FF title before 7 too, though. With your characters still being chibi pixel style, while facing these much more detailed and realistic monsters.
inexplicable art shift as it might be, at least it was holding up a tradition of sorts there.

It's been too long since we mentioned that starcitizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 11, 2018, 04:02:02 pm
It's been too long since we mentioned that starcitizen is good.

So is Star Citizen going to be in the PC Gaming show at e3 that starts in 6 1/2 hours?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 12, 2018, 04:07:00 am
(https://i.imgur.com/wRIx72F.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on June 12, 2018, 04:13:51 am
^Will CR live that long though?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 12, 2018, 05:38:21 am
The SC subreddit is starting to see a lot of discontent lately.

It's been too long since we mentioned that starcitizen is good.

(https://i.imgur.com/WWDwvav.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on June 12, 2018, 09:28:07 am
Beyond Good and Evil 2 will release before Star Citizen and I'll laugh endlessly at the fallout of that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 12, 2018, 10:00:50 am
I don't have high hopes for BG&E2.

But it's definitely going to be a game I can choose to play at some point in the future, and that's more than can be said about SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on June 12, 2018, 10:16:29 am
oh neither do I, I have little hopes for *any* game coming out these following years tbh. I'm even skeptical that 2077 will only be a mashup of GTA meets Witcher meets Deus Ex, instead of awesome (I know, most of you would love that mashup, I don't).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 12, 2018, 10:24:12 am
"The Molyneux" is always an option to either team ;)

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 12, 2018, 12:20:13 pm
The SC subreddit is starting to see a lot of discontent lately.

It's been too long since we mentioned that starcitizen is good.

(https://i.imgur.com/WWDwvav.gif)
(https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/3/2/five.001.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on June 12, 2018, 12:58:08 pm
I wonder how Star Citizen would be looked upon if they'd never at any point set a release date. Would they be regarded as making steady progress (however slow and beset by problems) and expected to eventually release?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 12, 2018, 02:02:17 pm
I wonder how Star Citizen would be looked upon if they'd never at any point set a release date. Would they be regarded as making steady progress (however slow and beset by problems) and expected to eventually release?

That's a good question. Personally, I think that even without their habitual deadline missing, CIG would still be seen as sort of bumbling and inept; There's just so much in this project that has gone wrong beyond the deadline issue that it's hard to overlook. The game, as advertised now, is very different from the initial pitch; while there is a certain tolerance towards the end product not necessarily matching the pitch 100%, the way this has been communicated is just bad. CIG has consistently prioritized making promises to new backers over fulfilling commitments to existing ones, and that's just an epic management fail no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 12, 2018, 05:54:39 pm
I wonder how Star Citizen would be looked upon if they'd never at any point set a release date. Would they be regarded as making steady progress (however slow and beset by problems) and expected to eventually release?

The question doesn't make sense.  Star Citizen wouldn't exist without kickstarter, kickstarter requires an estimated release date, therefore star citizen would always have a release date.

If it wasn't crowd-funded, its development would not be the subject of public scrutiny it would be secreted away behind closed doors, backed by publisher money which would have been exhausted by now. And when those funds were exhausted, the game would be subsequently cancelled, or Roberts would've been replaced earlier with someone who could get the job done. OR Roberts would have a producer would set constraints on the scope of the game, and it would've been released in that form probably with a ton of bugs and other problems.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on June 12, 2018, 06:35:48 pm
The question doesn't make sense.  Star Citizen wouldn't exist without kickstarter, kickstarter requires an estimated release date, therefore star citizen would always have a release date.

Star Citizen would certainly exist without Kickstarter. Only $2 million was pledged through Kickstarter, the rest went through RSI site itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 12, 2018, 07:04:14 pm
Which came first? (I genuinely don't know)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 12, 2018, 07:09:16 pm
The question doesn't make sense.  Star Citizen wouldn't exist without kickstarter, kickstarter requires an estimated release date, therefore star citizen would always have a release date.

Star Citizen would certainly exist without Kickstarter. Only $2 million was pledged through Kickstarter, the rest went through RSI site itself.

And how many people who pledged on RSI would know about the project if not through its exposure during the kickstarter?  How many games media websites would direct people to a developer's website that was asking for money with zero accountability?

Which came first? (I genuinely don't know)

Kickstarter.
The RSI website was just a countdown clock before the KS launched.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on June 13, 2018, 05:23:57 am
And how many people who pledged on RSI would know about the project if not through its exposure during the kickstarter? 

At the end of the initial crowdfunding campaign, around $6.2 million was raised, only $2 million through kickstarter. It was a minor factor.

Kickstarter.
The RSI website was just a countdown clock before the KS launched.

Wrong. Crowdfunding started on RSI site after the countdown and Kickstarter only came later. I know this because I actually had credit card issues backing the game through official site and only backed after Kickstarter option launched, so I remember this specifically. Little googling backs me up:

https://gamerant.com/star-citizen-wing-commander-kickstarter/

Kickstarter was simply not very significant in RSI crowdfunding campaign. RSI site itself was the main source of pledges.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 13, 2018, 06:22:16 am
And how many people who pledged on RSI would know about the project if not through its exposure during the kickstarter? 

At the end of the initial crowdfunding campaign, around $6.2 million was raised, only $2 million through kickstarter. It was a minor factor.

Kickstarter.
The RSI website was just a countdown clock before the KS launched.

Wrong. Crowdfunding started on RSI site after the countdown and Kickstarter only came later. I know this because I actually had credit card issues backing the game through official site and only backed after Kickstarter option launched, so I remember this specifically. Little googling backs me up:

https://gamerant.com/star-citizen-wing-commander-kickstarter/

Kickstarter was simply not very significant in RSI crowdfunding campaign. RSI site itself was the main source of pledges.

If Kickstarter was not significant, why does funding slow to a crawl after the KS ended? It took a month to make the first 6.2 million dollars, and 7 months to make the next 6.2 million. 

In the last two days of the KS, the campaign raised 2.2 million dollars - it would take four months to make that same amount (Nov 19 - Mar 18)

Kickstarter's impact on the crowdfunding campaign is abundantly clear.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 13, 2018, 06:35:20 am
Also, calling a third of the funding received "not significant" must surely rank somewhere near "development only started last year" on the list of hilariously flimsy bull**** SC supporters have spouted.

Sure, the majority of the funding came from their homegrown platform. The majority of the publicity surrounded the kickstarter however; without it, they would've lost more than just the 2 million in pledges raised on kickstarter itself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 13, 2018, 07:07:04 am
I also find it amusing that maslo said the KS page was not significant while admitting that it was the only way he was able to pledge to the campaign.

In fact Kickstarter was SO insignificant, that Roberts launched his campaign there even after he specifically said that he would not.  In a little bit of irony, the kickstarter campaign links to multiple interviews where he says he wont use kickstarter.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on June 13, 2018, 07:35:29 am
Star Citizen would certainly exist without Kickstarter. Only $2 million was pledged through Kickstarter, the rest went through RSI site itself.

I don't know about that. A lot of the initial buzz around Star Citizen was due to the massive kickstarter. If they were just some other game that wasn't crowdfunded I don't think they'd have been able to get away with their whole "I'm supporting the development of the game" cash flow model. That's pretty much dependant on their whole "We don't have a publisher. So no one can force us to reduce quality" shtick. Without the kickstarter and everything that followed, they'd have had to get a publisher to make money, which puts us right back at having a release date.

EDITED to make it clear who I was replying to.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on June 13, 2018, 08:30:21 am
If Kickstarter was not significant, why does funding slow to a crawl after the KS ended? It took a month to make the first 6.2 million dollars, and 7 months to make the next 6.2 million. 

Because that is when the initial crowdfunding campaign ended.

Quote
Sure, the majority of the funding came from their homegrown platform. The majority of the publicity surrounded the kickstarter however;

Nope, there was little publicity specifically connected to Kickstarter, publicity was due to Star Citizen *crowdfunding* in general.

Quote
I also find it amusing that maslo said the KS page was not significant while admitting that it was the only way he was able to pledge to the campaign.

Nothing amusing about it, numbers dont lie. Kickstarter backers like me were in the minority even during the initial campaign, and completely dwarfed since.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 13, 2018, 08:41:36 am
Quote
I also find it amusing that maslo said the KS page was not significant while admitting that it was the only way he was able to pledge to the campaign.

Nothing amusing about it, numbers dont lie. Kickstarter backers like me were in the minority even during the initial campaign, and completely dwarfed since.

Yes numbers do not lie, such as the number that Project Eternity held the crowd funding record at 4.16 million dollars, more than the 4.1 million raised by RSI which means all of the post-campaign press celebrating Star Citizen breaking the records would NOT HAVE HAPPENED without the kickstarter campaign.  And without that press, where would Star Citizen be? Far less funded than it is now I am sure.

Or do you believe that being able to make the claim that they made the most money in history is not significant?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on June 13, 2018, 03:32:48 pm
They would have certainly passed 4.16 million or whatever even without Kickstarter, it would take them only slightly longer. They would also get similar press coverage. I do believe that in an alternate history without Kickstarter, we would still be looking at ~$180 million pledged right now, maybe minus a handful of $ million. Vast majority of this money was pledged long after the Kickstarter thing was done and forgotten. I just dont see what is so significant about Kickstarter and as far as I remember, it was just a way to enable pledging for the minority of those who could not or did not want to use the official site and was always of secondary importance even during the initial crowdfunding campaign, much less later. Of course all this alternate history stuff is pure speculation and if you want to believe otherwise, be my guest, I can correct some factual errors here and there but cant really positively prove you wrong, lol
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 13, 2018, 04:17:58 pm
Fact: Both the KS campaign and the RSI site campaign used the same pitch and the same "sometime 2014" release date promises. No matter where you backed, backers of the original campaign are less valued by CIG than new backers they might convince to throw money their way; if you buy into the game now, you're buying into something very different from the original pitch.

There was a time when there was some genuine anxiety over CIG's failure bringing down the entire idea of crowdfunding huge games. Luckily, CIG has been so inept that any failure to deliver on their part will not call the general mechanism of crowdfunding into question anymore (Now CIG is just a poster boy for bad monetization practices; It's kinda curious to me that they haven't yet started to offer lootcrates)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 13, 2018, 07:10:27 pm
They would have certainly passed 4.16 million or whatever even without Kickstarter, it would take them only slightly longer. They would also get similar press coverage. I do believe that in an alternate history without Kickstarter, we would still be looking at ~$180 million pledged right now, maybe minus a handful of $ million. Vast majority of this money was pledged long after the Kickstarter thing was done and forgotten. I just dont see what is so significant about Kickstarter and as far as I remember, it was just a way to enable pledging for the minority of those who could not or did not want to use the official site and was always of secondary importance even during the initial crowdfunding campaign, much less later. Of course all this alternate history stuff is pure speculation and if you want to believe otherwise, be my guest, I can correct some factual errors here and there but cant really positively prove you wrong, lol

I think Kickstarter is significant in another way too, it's significant in that it represents a shift in Chris Robert's thinking.
The original pitch was about raising money to secure additional money from interested investors.  When Roberts started making a ton of money, he forgot about investors (presumably) and just thought about all the money he wasn't getting.  He went on kickstarter despite saying previously that he wouldn't.  And then they opened up funding even after the campaign finished.

So Kickstarter is also significant in that it was at the forefront of a shift in Robert's apparent thinking where, the campaign wasn't raising money to impress investors, but instead just raising all the money from everyone that it could.  And then instead of having 2 million + investors and a limited scope, the scope was suddenly unlimited and years later- still no finished game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 15, 2018, 01:29:54 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/TY8bW2v.gif)

https://twitter.com/EveOnline/status/1007352147426594816
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 15, 2018, 01:37:27 pm
This is obviously good for Star Citizen. Using publically available concept art instead of having artists in-house is just good sense.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on June 15, 2018, 02:08:20 pm
Turns out, you can actually try out your Star Citizen JPGs in a video game!  Amazing!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on June 15, 2018, 08:25:41 pm
This is obviously good for Star Citizen. Using publically available concept art instead of having artists in-house is just good sense.

Quite frankly the first ship they offered out of the box looked like a fugly Vulture to me.
(https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99590108078_VultureGunship01.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 15, 2018, 08:36:27 pm
This isn't even the first time CIG has stolen art from other things.  For a while they employed a concept artist whose career was based on it.

Hopefully the paywall is down. (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3773270&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post459087941)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on June 15, 2018, 08:37:50 pm
The wall is down.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 15, 2018, 11:59:44 pm
This isn't even the first time CIG has stolen art from other things.  For a while they employed a concept artist whose career was based on it.

Hopefully the paywall is down. (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3773270&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post459087941)

You can't really hold the company responsible for the actions of one of their artists unless the company fails to rectify the problem after it has been brought to light.

It's also worth noting that professional matt painters basically create landscapes through the cutting together and blending of actual photographs.  Now whether popping a head on a photograph is as transformative, is debateable.  This ship above- it's certainly similar but it is also quite different. If I'm not mistaken one of the Vasudan transports even has the same overall design of a body and two extending arms to hold containers.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 16, 2018, 12:51:09 am
I'm not terribly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when they also did this. (https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5rm45a/watermarked_stock_image_found_in_the_game/)

That wasn't even the first time (that post links to other instances).  Sure, professional matte painters do use a lot of photographs, but they pay for those photographs or use public domain ones.  They don't just steal them.  That ****'s unacceptable for a multi-million dollar company.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on June 16, 2018, 01:11:31 am
Probably doxxing Derek Smart is the only solution, as well as to threaten him with lawyers that will close his company.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on June 16, 2018, 01:52:42 am
Well, apparently Derek Smart has been planting artists in the company to deliberately sabotage the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on June 16, 2018, 01:54:43 am
Many built it up, few tear it down.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on June 16, 2018, 08:50:25 am
You do realize the EVE tweet is a joke, the ship is merely similar shape, not identical, and there is no evidence of any stealing here, right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 16, 2018, 10:32:45 am
Jokes are good for starcitizen.

Starcitizen is a joke, therefore good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 16, 2018, 10:54:11 am
It uses Matthew mcaaigjannenney to sell space racers.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 20, 2018, 06:15:10 am
Some interesting ideas here:

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 20, 2018, 02:05:21 pm
The whale fracking part is golden (the rest of the video rings true too)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on June 20, 2018, 05:46:38 pm
The whale fracking part is golden (the rest of the video rings true too)

Has a few other videos, one on JPEG starships as well:


Though overall needs some more videos to flesh out his ideas.
Apparently this guy was one of the super backers and then got out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 20, 2018, 05:50:27 pm
He wasn't just a superbacker, he's some sort of super-rich Texas oil baron who outright invested tens of thousands into CIG very early on. He pulled out a few years ago after doing some digging at CIG and concluding it was being run by incompetent assholes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 20, 2018, 10:12:50 pm
IIRC it was something to the tune of $350k.  Like Phantom said, Bootcha wasn't a backer, he was an actual investor who expect a financial return.  He helped organise and appeared on a few of the earlier streams too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on June 21, 2018, 12:28:09 pm
That whole (as yet unfinished) series is definitely worth a watch.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 21, 2018, 06:48:41 pm
That whole (as yet unfinished) series is definitely worth a watch.
Watched it all yesterday, can confirm.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: OneOneThree on June 21, 2018, 09:14:27 pm
Learning that Crobbers became a used rental car salesman to suck up to Hollywood execs really puts those puzzle pieces together. It's almost as if he's only in it for the money.

I assume CiG's customer support did not approve this guy's $350,000 refund request.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on June 21, 2018, 11:55:16 pm
That whole (as yet unfinished) series is definitely worth a watch.

Especially for the Freespace and HLP shoutouts. It's not completely surprising that you can't have any discussion of space sims without mentioning the one that is critically acclaimed as the best of the genre but it's still nice to see we weren't forgotten.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on June 22, 2018, 02:51:51 am

I assume CiG's customer support did not approve this guy's $350,000 refund request.
He got it back.  Because it wasn't a refund request but rather a termination of the contract he had with CIG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on June 22, 2018, 05:51:51 am
That whole (as yet unfinished) series is definitely worth a watch.

Especially for the Freespace and HLP shoutouts. It's not completely surprising that you can't have any discussion of space sims without mentioning the one that is critically acclaimed as the best of the genre but it's still nice to see we weren't forgotten.

Out of context I thought that was about me (there goes my ego)  :lol:

I guess I need to watch that since I'm pretty sure I read the guy's original posts about it and his guide to getting a refund from CiG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on June 25, 2018, 03:07:03 pm
Learning that Crobbers became a used rental car salesman to suck up to Hollywood execs really puts those puzzle pieces together.
This place loves to mock people who believe without evidence Star Citizen will ever come out, but says nothing about people that believe things like this without evidence. Sad.

I suppose you guys think he's an art forger too (https://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/06/chris_roberts_art.html)?

If you're going off this link publicized by Derek Smart (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/723511495749980161), then I should point out that a Redditor was able to add and edit the information without any verification whatsoever (https://old.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/4fymp6/derek_is_convinced_that_chris_was_a_used_car/d2danqk/). Totally inconceivable that a Goon would create that entry, right?

Seems incredibly unlikely to me that the sole record of Chris Roberts's automotive empire is a site called 'freecarsonline.com' which doesn't even seem to exist anymore, and looks like one of those clickbait content-scraping sites in archives.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 25, 2018, 03:38:08 pm
Learning that Crobbers became a used rental car salesman to suck up to Hollywood execs really puts those puzzle pieces together.
This place loves to mock people who believe without evidence Star Citizen will ever come out, but says nothing about people that believe things like this without evidence. Sad.
The 'evidence' was in one of those sunk cost galaxy vids. And it was said to take it with a grain of salt.
I personally just like to believe it's true because it's funnier that way.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 08, 2018, 01:59:09 pm
Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Jesus patch 3.0 still MIA

Quoting myself here as we celebrate the 3rd year since the great July blogTM. (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=16KpIRt_z6nSSP3gbYyylZm3-kpBynwYj)

Great things that happened since last year:

- Jesus patch 3.0 was released, performance is still **** -> But fret not, the new Jesus patch 3.1 3.2 3.3 will make everything great again
- The mythical SQ42 vertical slice was finally shown -> PC gaming is truly saved, Goons/detractors thoroughly owned
- Ben Lesnick, Developer, Master of Ships; moved upstate to work from home
- New powerwords: Bind Culling, Object Container Streaming, Tier 0 implementation
- Funding sits currently at 189M$, yet all deliverables are massively delayed -> It's ok, Chris absolves himself of that issue https://youtu.be/AMPTD3Dr4gE?t=3375 (https://youtu.be/AMPTD3Dr4gE?t=3375)

Overall score: Star Citizen is good -> buy an Idris!

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1_fQkjkYRvsnNUa0v0vBreuE5JZ_G2QVq)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 08, 2018, 02:05:07 pm
Not to forget: Digital Extremes announced a new addition to Warframe: A large ship that players can pilot, with player-manned turrets and crew positions, ship-to-ship actions including boarding parties.....

So now we have not only ED being more complete than SC will ever be, now Warframe is invading its space while SC still hasn't figured out how their ingame economy is supposed to work.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 08, 2018, 03:30:28 pm


Today our little SC thread here on HLP turns 2 years old.*partyhat*

For a chuckle, go re-read the first page and marvel at the fact that basically nothing has changed since back then. Both Derek and Crobbers are still masters of overpromising and underdelivering, one regarding the ELE and the other the BDSSE (or even anything resembling a game).

Jesus patch 3.0 still MIA

Quoting myself here as we celebrate the 3rd year since the great July blogTM. (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=16KpIRt_z6nSSP3gbYyylZm3-kpBynwYj)
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=16KpIRt_z6nSSP3gbYyylZm3-kpBynwYj)

Not to forget: Digital Extremes announced a new addition to Warframe: A large ship that players can pilot, with player-manned turrets and crew positions, ship-to-ship actions including boarding parties.....

So now we have not only ED being more complete than SC will ever be, now Warframe is invading its space while SC still hasn't figured out how their ingame economy is supposed to work.
I bought the call of dooty infinite warfare on sale a while back, and everything about that game is just literally what croberts would like SQ42 to be. (I'm personally not super enjoying the game myself, but I find it a fasinating dive into crobert's dreams)
I'd imagine seeing ED and WF making Croberts' dreams a reality before he himself can, makes everyone at RSI/CGI sweat a bit more.

Great things that happened since last year:

- Jesus patch 3.0 was released, performance is still **** -> But fret not, the new Jesus patch 3.1 3.2 3.3 will make everything great again
- The mythical SQ42 vertical slice was finally shown -> PC gaming is truly saved, Goons/detractors thoroughly owned
- Ben Lesnick, Developer, Master of Ships; moved upstate to work from home
- New powerwords: Bind Culling, Object Container Streaming, Tier 0 implementation
- Funding sits currently at 189M$, yet all deliverables are massively delayed -> It's ok, Chris absolves himself of that issue https://youtu.be/AMPTD3Dr4gE?t=3375 (https://youtu.be/AMPTD3Dr4gE?t=3375)

Overall score: Star Citizen is good -> buy an Idris!
This is all good for Star Citizen, and Star Citizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 08, 2018, 03:37:15 pm
I bought the call of dooty infinite warfare on sale a while back, and everything about that game is just literally what croberts would like SQ42 to be. (I'm personally not super enjoying the game myself, but I find it a fasinating dive into crobert's dreams)
I'd imagine seeing ED and WF making Croberts' dreams a reality before he himself can, makes everyone at RSI/CGI sweat a bit more.

Same, started today. It really is a somewhat complete representation of what Squadron 42 could be (including somewhat random actor cameos; While it's perhaps not exactly surprising to see/hear Claudia Black in a game these days, when Tigris Actual came on the comms and was actually Claudia Christian, I was very surprised). Of course, it's still a callodoody, so manshooting is what the game is all about with the flying sequences being the little gameplay departures sprinkled in for variety, but overall? Roberts wishes he could write something as effortlessly competent as this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 03:41:16 pm
- Jesus patch 3.0 was released, performance is still **** -> But fret not, the new Jesus patch 3.1 3.2 3.3 will make everything great again

Obviously you havent played SC recently, as performance is now at consistent 40 fps (assuming you have an SSD and 16 gigs of RAM). Patch 3.2 is out and was quite well received by the community. Also patches 3.1 and 3.2 were released without any delays, however at the cost of some features not making it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 03:43:23 pm
So now we have not only ED being more complete than SC will ever be

Not until those space legs are released.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 08, 2018, 03:47:20 pm
Not until those space legs are released.

Did any of the patches introduce even a prototype version of the in-game economy system yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 03:51:42 pm
Did any of the patches introduce even a prototype version of the in-game economy system yet?

You can mine, buy and sell commodities, so yes. Still a lot of work to do, tough.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 08, 2018, 04:00:38 pm
How much are you in for, commando?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 08, 2018, 04:22:13 pm
You can mine, buy and sell commodities, so yes. Still a lot of work to do, tough.

How much mining do you have to do to buy an Idris
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 04:32:53 pm
How much are you in for, commando?

$101

Quote
Not to forget: Digital Extremes announced a new addition to Warframe: A large ship that players can pilot, with player-manned turrets and crew positions, ship-to-ship actions including boarding parties.....

Still missing like 90% of other SC features.

There is no direct competition to SC on the horizon. Closest thing to SC gameplay model are arguably some indie games such as Rodina, Pulsar or Evochron. But while being good games, they are very much indie-tier B titles, not AAA, so it is not the same at all. Hellion also deserves a honorary mention here, even tough it has no planets. However, the gaping hole in the market that SC attempts to fill remains very much unfilled even years after its announcement. So SC players aint going to leave for any other games anytime soon.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 04:37:16 pm
How much mining do you have to do to buy an Idris

You cannot buy ships in-game yet. I think it should be in the next patch..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 08, 2018, 04:44:40 pm
Seems like a key feature.......

"Downloads warframe on PS4 to experience boarding party mechanics"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2018, 05:32:47 pm
How much mining do you have to do to buy an Idris

You cannot buy ships in-game yet. I think it should be in the next patch..
Yes, I'm sure CIG are definitely going to compromise the thing that makes them money.

Also, the only thing SC has over ED is its barely functional FPS system (which is a core feature of CryEngine to begin with).  ED has everything else and much more besides.  I don't much enjoy the game, but it's miles ahead of SC.  This isn't opinion.  ED objectively has more functional gameplay systems and more content than SC does.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on July 08, 2018, 05:37:59 pm
How much mining do you have to do to buy an Idris

You cannot buy ships in-game yet. I think it should be in the next patch..
Yes, I'm sure CIG are definitely going to compromise the thing that makes them money.

Also, the only thing SC has over ED is its barely functional FPS system (which is a core feature of CryEngine to begin with).  ED has everything else and much more besides.  I don't much enjoy the game, but it's miles ahead of SC.  This isn't opinion.  ED objectively has more functional gameplay systems and more content than SC does.

But does it have the power of anticipation and projection of dreams?  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2018, 05:44:43 pm
No, which is why citizens dismiss it so readily.  They compare the imperfect game ED is to the perfect game they imagine SC will be.  All of SC's problems get dismissed with excuses like 'it's alpha/tier 0 implementation'.  Nevermind that the dogfighting has been **** since Arena Commander released and hasn't improved in those 4 years.

ED's at a disadvantage because ED is a finished game.  As long as Star Citisn't makes no meaningful progress, its fans will excuse every single ****ty aspect of it.  CIG has a vested interest in making as little progress as possible.  Once they release something, citizens will have to come to terms with the fact that the reality doesn't match their dreams.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on July 08, 2018, 05:48:56 pm
Yes I agree. It's human nature to love anticipation and to 'imprint' on things (I am guilty of this myself). SC is this in a masterclass. In this and other cases it leads to folks feeling like an attack on something you really like is an attack on yourself, and to create logic blind-spots. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 08, 2018, 07:06:34 pm
- Jesus patch 3.0 was released, performance is still **** -> But fret not, the new Jesus patch 3.1 3.2 3.3 will make everything great again

Obviously you havent played SC recently, as performance is now at consistent 40 fps (assuming you have an SSD and 16 gigs of RAM). Patch 3.2 is out and was quite well received by the community. Also patches 3.1 and 3.2 were released without any delays, however at the cost of some features not making it.

Can I just take a moment to revisit how hilarious it is that maslo thinks 40 FPS is performance worth mentioning in a good light, and further listed two things that have very little to do with frame rates to back it up?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on July 08, 2018, 07:10:05 pm
Well, sometimes FSO do not give me more than 40 FPS in some missions too, even with a Titan X in SLI.


So you have to see it from this perspective. Star Citizen has finally closed the gap to FSO  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 08, 2018, 07:51:59 pm
Can I just take a moment to revisit how hilarious it is that maslo thinks 40 FPS is performance worth mentioning in a good light, and further listed two things that have very little to do with frame rates to back it up?

40 FPS is not ideal but very much playable and you need to put it in contrast with 20 FPS that we used to get when 3.0 landed. That is why I mentioned this important figure. Also, a lot of SC performance issues have to do with heavy stuttering any time the game touches anything out of RAM, hence why the need for SSD and lots of RAM. Processor is also kind of a bottleneck. GPU less so.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on July 08, 2018, 08:04:04 pm
Can I just take a moment to revisit how hilarious it is that maslo thinks 40 FPS is performance worth mentioning in a good light, and further listed two things that have very little to do with frame rates to back it up?

40 FPS is not ideal but very much playable and you need to put it in contrast with 20 FPS that we used to get when 3.0 landed. That is why I mentioned this important figure. Also, a lot of SC performance issues have to do with heavy stuttering any time the game touches anything out of RAM, hence why the need for SSD and lots of RAM. Processor is also kind of a bottleneck. GPU less so.

Interesting. Objectively a gain is 20+ fps is indeed an improvement (even if it took a while). If you, as a paying backer, are happy with the progress and logical about the road-map then I don't want to hamper something you enjoy. For me it's not my cup of tea, but to each their own  :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on July 08, 2018, 08:09:25 pm
40 FPS after four years of a playable demo is horse****, hth.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 08, 2018, 08:19:12 pm
40 FPS after four years of a playable demo is horse****, hth.

40 FPS is 33% more cinematic than any 30 FPS console peasant game, don't you know.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 08, 2018, 08:21:43 pm
40 FPS after four years of a playable demo is horse****, hth.

40 FPS is 33% more cinematic than any 30 FPS console peasant game, don't you know.

I think SC will run fine on any common Quantum PC once it's released.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 08, 2018, 08:50:26 pm
40 FPS after four years of a playable demo is horse****, hth.

It's a feature of the CryEngine.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on July 08, 2018, 09:05:32 pm
$189M now eh? Another huge, mind blowing jump since the last time I saw the number, I think it was about $140M then.

It has to end sometime, right? There's only so much the cash cows can be milked, right? Right? :nervous:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 08, 2018, 09:07:44 pm
Probably they should start mining crypto currencies to get that thing financed.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on July 08, 2018, 09:58:53 pm
Can I just take a moment to revisit how hilarious it is that maslo thinks 40 FPS is performance worth mentioning in a good light, and further listed two things that have very little to do with frame rates to back it up?

40 FPS is not ideal but very much playable and you need to put it in contrast with 20 FPS that we used to get when 3.0 landed. That is why I mentioned this important figure. Also, a lot of SC performance issues have to do with heavy stuttering any time the game touches anything out of RAM, hence why the need for SSD and lots of RAM. Processor is also kind of a bottleneck. GPU less so.

Word on the street is that they disabled a lot of NPCs for 3.2 so that the server doesn't **** the bed and you get a decent framerate.
But I'm sure subsumption AI/server meshing/ bind culling will fix these issues, once Crobbers get's around to implement them in one of his late night coding sessions.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 08, 2018, 10:18:22 pm
Probably they should start mining crypto currencies to get that thing financed.

They're looking for a way to get backers to pay for the privilege of mining cryptocurrency for CIG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on July 11, 2018, 04:35:22 am
40 FPS after four years of a playable demo is horse****, hth.

40 FPS is 33% more cinematic than any 30 FPS console peasant game, don't you know.

I think SC will run fine on any common Quantum PC once it's released.

Chris Roberts games always ran like a turd on current generation hardware.

It's a feature! It's traditional! It wouldn't be a real spiritual Wing Commander successor otherwise! :-)

(Although, back in the day, the next gen CPU was always leaps and bounds faster than the last one, which definitely is no more the case. going from 286 to 386 was a different world back then. Same when the 486er finally released)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 11, 2018, 09:03:30 am
Yeah but I used to run frontier elite 2 on a 286.   Wing commander 3 ran on a 486 and I think frontier had better ganeplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2018, 10:55:48 pm
funny thing, when my parents substituted the 386 for the 486, there was a noticeable performance drop. Never understood why at the time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2018, 11:19:37 pm
We went from a 386 to a P1 166mhz
Now that's a performance jump.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 11, 2018, 11:24:53 pm
Starcitizen is good though.

40 FPS is good
You only need a SSD, GTX 1080 and 16GB for such stellar framerates.

$101
Get a refund imo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 12, 2018, 12:18:58 am
Those who threw their money at it will be unable to play the game in the end one way or another for they have nothing left to pay the hardware to run it with.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on July 16, 2018, 03:21:39 pm
https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/star-citizen-backers-no-longer-able-to-get-refunds/

Lots of he-said, she-said, little to no proof, but apparently SC successfully argued that they don't have to give refunds in small claims court. If this particular development isn't the pivotal buyer beware moment of crowdfunding, I don't know what is, or will be.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 16, 2018, 04:32:53 pm
You only need a SSD, GTX 1080 and 16GB for such stellar framerates.

Might be a good reasonable hardware minimum specs when it's released tbh.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 16, 2018, 06:56:56 pm
https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/star-citizen-backers-no-longer-able-to-get-refunds/

Lots of he-said, she-said, little to no proof, but apparently SC successfully argued that they don't have to give refunds in small claims court. If this particular development isn't the pivotal buyer beware moment of crowdfunding, I don't know what is, or will be.

This is huge and ****ed up. Firefly212 backed in 2013 and should have been entitled to a refund afaik. For CIG to argue that the new ToS applies retroactively is both false and an extremely aggressive move against consumers.

Putting the ToS aside, as a consumer who bought a product that was then left undelivered, the guy should be entitled to a refund. I can't help but feel that had this happened in Europe he would've gotten his money back.

Star Citizen's reputation, such that it was, has once again taken a huge knock. I really really hope that this occupies the top spot for anyone who googles "Star Citizen", hopefully it will deter new backers.

(https://i.imgur.com/rtJPZMu.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on July 16, 2018, 07:53:28 pm
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how truthful the reporting is, but if the small claims court actually ruled that the new ToS applies retroactively, that's an...unfortunate ruling, to say the least. Yet another reason to completely avoid "crowdfunding" or pre-ordering anything.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 16, 2018, 07:56:13 pm
I wonder how that applies internationally.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 16, 2018, 08:11:13 pm
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how truthful the reporting is, but if the small claims court actually ruled that the new ToS applies retroactively, that's an...unfortunate ruling, to say the least. Yet another reason to completely avoid "crowdfunding" or pre-ordering anything.

Which is fair and sensible. We'll know the truth once the court transcripts are released.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cyborg17 on July 16, 2018, 09:29:27 pm
As stupid as Star Citizen is, without crowdfunding, I would not have Overload, and a lot of other worthwhile projects would not be invested in.  This is really just how investment works.  Some things work out, some do not.  Maybe the better lesson is to have some healthy skepticism when the promises are so grandiose.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: starlord on July 16, 2018, 11:33:51 pm
That's precisely what I'm afraid of. How many promising projects might go belly up in the future because of the desastrous choices of a few like star citizen or no man sky?

Should star citizen not deliver (which I see as more and more unavoidable), the negative impact on crowdfunding projects in general will be enormous.

On the other hand it's funny to see how in a sense, history repeats itself through terrible management decisions. Anyone familiar with the cinematic industry remember "food fight"? Funny how I'm sensing déjà vu.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 16, 2018, 11:45:00 pm
They should take the money they get from crowdfounding to lotterys all over the world. With all the money they received they'll surely be able to win some nice jackpot, and to lever the sum thereby.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 16, 2018, 11:45:43 pm
That's precisely what I'm afraid of. How many promising projects might go belly up in the future because of the desastrous choices of a few like star citizen or no man sky?

Wait, No Man's Sky wasn't crowdfunded right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on July 17, 2018, 02:18:15 am
Should star citizen not deliver (which I see as more and more unavoidable), the negative impact on crowdfunding projects in general will be enormous.

I don't think it will have any impact at all.  Star Citizen is years old, it's long from the public eye except for those involved in it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: starlord on July 17, 2018, 07:55:15 am
I disagree. It made enough of an impact to appear on the Guinness books due to the sums involved. It was even mentioned several times in Forbes articles. At this point, it is an oddball case of marketing people are studying.

At this point I simply feel disconcerted about the whole thing. I mean, sure I'd love to play a wing commander spiritual sequel, and there was a time I was genuinely excited for squadron 42, which I was waiting to buy.
But now I look at the sums involved... Sheesh! An I think people are really losing perspective on priorities. I mean... Imagine that kind of money funding a biotech research lab...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 17, 2018, 09:31:06 am
No, Akalabeth is right. SC was and will likely be the largest crowd funded game for the foreseeable future, but at this point, its failure will not be seen as an indictment of crowdfunding as a concept.

If anything, SC has already had all the impact on the crowdfunding scene it was going to have; I think campaigns these days are very careful to stay in scope or to have developers  with proven track records on board.

Like, while I wouldn't give Chris Roberts any more money, I will definitely consider backing whatever Harebrained Schemes are doing next; similarly, I've backed Project Wingman purely on the strength of their existing demos and their commitment to not expanding the scope of their project despite taking in a lot more money than what they were asking for.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 17, 2018, 12:29:12 pm
That's precisely what I'm afraid of. How many promising projects might go belly up in the future because of the desastrous choices of a few like star citizen or no man sky?

Wait, No Man's Sky wasn't crowdfunded right?

And it was actually shipped. And it's still being worked on, to this day (big release coming this month btw).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 17, 2018, 05:38:16 pm
No man's sky's problem was that people believed that the release was the final version and it sucked compared with what was promised. That was entirely Hello Games fault, but it really should be thought of as being in early access.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 17, 2018, 05:59:48 pm
oh yeah, they were terrible at communicating what they really had vs what they hoped to eventually have. I really think this was Murray's lack of media savvyness, given the kinds of noises he has made since - "I've learned we're not good at talking, we're better at coding, so we'll stick to do the latter and talk as less as possible" - which leads me to think they've learned their lesson.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 17, 2018, 07:29:20 pm
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 17, 2018, 07:47:40 pm

Croberts has had a lot more time to make bold claims and promises.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on July 17, 2018, 07:48:05 pm
The trailers also featured elements that were not indicative of the released game.  I don't think that has to do with "bad at talking", it has to do with misrepresenting the facts
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on July 17, 2018, 08:05:03 pm
Did anyone else like Starlancer years ago?  It wasn't as popular as X-Wing/Wing Commander/FS2/etc., but as a space-sim combat game I actually found it enjoyable.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 17, 2018, 08:09:33 pm
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer

The update coming out next week will have multiplayer
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 17, 2018, 09:56:23 pm
Did anyone else like Starlancer years ago?  It wasn't as popular as X-Wing/Wing Commander/FS2/etc., but as a space-sim combat game I actually found it enjoyable.


I liked the carrier  launches and ship designs.  Wish it had a mission editor back then sooooooooo bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 17, 2018, 11:42:24 pm
Did anyone else like Starlancer years ago?  It wasn't as popular as X-Wing/Wing Commander/FS2/etc., but as a space-sim combat game I actually found it enjoyable.

The demo is nice but I'm too lazy to hunt down a copy on eBay, why there isn't a digital release on Steam or GOG.com I don't know.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 17, 2018, 11:48:26 pm
Did anyone else like Starlancer years ago?  It wasn't as popular as X-Wing/Wing Commander/FS2/etc., but as a space-sim combat game I actually found it enjoyable.


I liked the carrier  launches and ship designs.  Wish it had a mission editor back then sooooooooo bad.

Krevett converted the SL models to FS, so you can say it has one now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 18, 2018, 07:21:34 am
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer

The update coming out next week will have multiplayer

I'm willing to cut HelloGames a lot of slack because they definitely sat down and started plugging away at the game to make it into what they promised it to be. For a time after launch, they looked like the next Peter Molyneuxs, always overpromising and always underdelivering, but unlike Molyneux, they actually started delivering.

That doesn't excuse their overpromising to sell the game, of course. But there's a vast difference here between No Man's Sky and SC: NMS was, at launch, a playable game that people could enjoy and has since become more of a game. SC, to this day, isn't even that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2018, 02:04:06 pm
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer

I remember putting you on my ignore list for this very subject, so thread lightly here.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 18, 2018, 07:28:49 pm
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer

I remember putting you on my ignore list for this very subject, so thread lightly here.

Hey now, if you put it that way, I don't think anybody cares about your ignore list.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2018, 07:50:28 pm
It sounds very menacing, though.

"T(h)read lightly... or youll face the wrath of my ignore list."

*Gasp!*
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2018, 08:18:15 pm
You don't know the power of my ignore list. Underestimate it at your peril.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 18, 2018, 08:39:11 pm
come off it luis, he lied through his teeth about multiplayer

The update coming out next week will have multiplayer
That doesn't excuse their overpromising to sell the game, of course. But there's a vast difference here between No Man's Sky and SC: NMS was, at launch, a playable game that people could enjoy and has since become more of a game. SC, to this day, isn't even that.

Hello Games definitely should have explained that things like multiplayer weren't going to be in the initial release. It was a massive PR disaster not to.

But a lot of the stick they got was over things like the Collbert interview where he said players would be able to see and grief each other a bit. And it does seem like they will add that in the next release. So if they always planned that, it wasn't a lie to say that you could do that in the final game.  They just needed to make it much more clear that large changes were coming after initial release.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 18, 2018, 10:04:41 pm
You don't know the power of my ignore list. Underestimate it at your peril.

It's one 16,317th of a ban.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 18, 2018, 10:41:39 pm
what i want to know is why he was ever foolish enough to take me off it
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2018, 11:59:22 pm
Tbf, i never did, but there's this button i can press to see what you post, and I pressed it.

Don't worry, I learn from my mistakes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on July 19, 2018, 12:43:32 am
Tbf, i never did, but there's this button i can press to see what you post, and I pressed it.

Don't worry, I learn from my mistakes.

As evidenced by the fact you pressed the button to see his post again.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2018, 01:28:37 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rtJPZMu.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathspeed on July 19, 2018, 01:38:37 am
Did anyone else like Starlancer years ago?  It wasn't as popular as X-Wing/Wing Commander/FS2/etc., but as a space-sim combat game I actually found it enjoyable.

I had a blast with that game, but on the last mission the game would crash so I never finished it.  I have it running on Windows 10 now, but honestly I forgot I had it until I saw this post! 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on July 19, 2018, 10:40:59 am
Tbf, i never did, but there's this button i can press to see what you post, and I pressed it.

Don't worry, I learn from my mistakes.

As evidenced by the fact you pressed the button to see his post again.

a new challenger approaches
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 19, 2018, 03:36:37 pm
As riveting as the continued saga of updates to your ignorelist is, please keep it out of this thread.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on July 20, 2018, 12:43:11 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rtJPZMu.gif)
this is it, the only reaction image we'll ever need ever again
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 23, 2018, 07:45:33 am
https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/star-citizen-backers-no-longer-able-to-get-refunds/

Lots of he-said, she-said, little to no proof, but apparently SC successfully argued that they don't have to give refunds in small claims court. If this particular development isn't the pivotal buyer beware moment of crowdfunding, I don't know what is, or will be.

One thing not mentioned in that report is that the guy sued them because he has MS and literally can't play the game they are developing now.


Around the 7:40 mark.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 23, 2018, 04:48:52 pm
https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/star-citizen-backers-no-longer-able-to-get-refunds/

Lots of he-said, she-said, little to no proof, but apparently SC successfully argued that they don't have to give refunds in small claims court. If this particular development isn't the pivotal buyer beware moment of crowdfunding, I don't know what is, or will be.

One thing not mentioned in that report is that the guy sued them because he has MS and literally can't play the game they are developing now.

OK, this is a dick move, reminds me of when they removed certain non combat classes and jobs from Star Wars Galaxies making it impossible for some disabled people to play.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 29, 2018, 02:31:56 pm
Star citizen lore is good and well thought out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on July 29, 2018, 06:41:22 pm
It's fine
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 30, 2018, 04:08:47 pm
Star citizen lore is good and well thought out.

Futurama got around that problem by simply wiping out civilisation a few times as the centuries passed by.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 30, 2018, 05:33:59 pm
Seems like a fair analysis of the problems. I loved the comment about the big problem being that the creative director and the CEO being the same person.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SamVision on July 31, 2018, 06:29:23 am
Seems like a fair analysis of the problems. I loved the comment about the big problem being that the creative director and the CEO being the same person.
Sounds like Duke Nukem Forever.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 31, 2018, 07:05:39 pm
CIG have gone ahead and removed the maximum cap on purchased UEC, while retaining the daily cap.

Now the whales can enjoy greater immersion by sinking the economy through inflation.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 01, 2018, 09:28:11 am
Starcitizen has an economy? Are they finally implementing basic gameplay mechanics? :V
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 06, 2018, 04:44:17 pm
https://www.pcgamer.com/chris-roberts-responds-to-star-citizen-pay-to-win-concerns-after-removal-of-in-game-currency-cap/
https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/damien-cox/star-citizen-prompts-pay-to-win-concerns-after-removing-in-game-currency-cap/
https://www.criticalhit.net/gaming/chris-roberts-addresses-star-citizen-pay-win-concerns/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 06, 2018, 04:49:15 pm
It's always been pay-to-win.  Rubes pay for nothing, and Chris Roberts wins.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on August 06, 2018, 06:00:24 pm
"It is a game with no goal and so no win"... this argumentation is... well..  :banghead:

Well.. take "The journey is the reward."...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 06, 2018, 11:56:08 pm
Quote
A player that has lots of time but only backed for the basic game helps out by playing the game, giving feedback, and assisting new players. On the flip side, if a player has a family and a demanding job and only has four hours to game a week but wants to spend some money to shortcut the time investment they would need to purchase a new ship, what’s wrong with that?

This is the same argument that's been used by the evil publishers to justify loot boxes. I'm sure EA used this same logic to justify the loot boxes of BF2 for instance.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 07, 2018, 06:37:40 am
Quote
He added that it was a "puzzle" that critics of the system don’t have a problem with the stockpiling of expensive ships or items but think that a "player having more than 150,000 UEC is game-breaking".

To be fair, that is rather puzzling. I have no idea why they didn't see that the game was already pay to win earlier. This just makes it pay even more to win.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on August 07, 2018, 08:40:29 am
Yeah, it's been rather blatantly pay to win since they started selling ships, which was like the very beginning of the project.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 13, 2018, 02:27:23 am
(https://i.imgur.com/JzVz610.png)

"SC isn't pay to win because if you buy the best equipment, no one can pay more to beat you (in that ship class)."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on August 13, 2018, 03:41:57 am
(https://www.dpegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/riker-no-go-on.gif)

Your logic is intriguing, do go on.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 13, 2018, 05:35:59 am
One reason why I am not bothered by so-called "pay-to-win", as done in SC, is that it is in fact realistic and immersive. In the real world, wealthy people can buy better equipment, and there is no reason to expect new SC characters should be uniformly poor. You certainly have more money than brains characters in the real world, so why not in SC? They cannot buy better skill, tough. As long as this "pay-to-win" is restricted to merely buying equipment and not directly affecting gameplay, I dont see how it diminishes my own enjoyment of the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 13, 2018, 06:01:44 am
I'm sure I remember seeing "pay real money to buy" higher quality torps.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on August 13, 2018, 06:44:56 am
I feel like "buying a better ship" is something that would have an effect on gameplay.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 13, 2018, 01:25:24 pm
It all depends on how difficult / grindy it is if the game ever gets made to go from the no money start point to the top ship. Like I see the Elite Dangerous videos that are like "Sidewinder to Anaconda in 4 hours". That would certainly render the "pay to win" aspect almost meaninglessness.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on August 13, 2018, 03:34:46 pm
I'm sure all the folks who sank thousands of dollars would be thrilled if all the content they bought could be unlocked in four hours.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 13, 2018, 03:45:40 pm
I'm sure all the folks who sank thousands of dollars would be thrilled if all the content they bought could be unlocked in four hours.
Well, that's one ship. Ideally it would take a lot longer, necessitating the buying of many better ships along the way. I wouldn't think it unreasonable for a capital ship to require about 60 hours per player required to crew it. Though 60 hours of normal gameplay by a competent player not 60 hours of optimal grinding.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 13, 2018, 05:24:13 pm
60 hours free to play anything would be nice :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 14, 2018, 12:08:18 am
(https://i.imgur.com/JzVz610.png)

"SC isn't pay to win because if you buy the best equipment, no one can pay more to beat you (in that ship class)."

How the **** can he make a determination about the combat metagame when neither combat or flight mechanics are anywhere near done? It's like commenting on the handling characteristics of a car that's barely more than a chassis and wheels.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 14, 2018, 01:35:34 am
One reason why I am not bothered by so-called "pay-to-win", as done in SC, is that it is in fact realistic and immersive. In the real world, wealthy people can buy better equipment, and there is no reason to expect new SC characters should be uniformly poor. You certainly have more money than brains characters in the real world, so why not in SC? They cannot buy better skill, tough. As long as this "pay-to-win" is restricted to merely buying equipment and not directly affecting gameplay, I dont see how it diminishes my own enjoyment of the game.
If I wanted all the ****ty parts of real life I wouldn't be playing videogames.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 14, 2018, 02:36:31 am
One reason why I am not bothered by so-called "pay-to-win", as done in SC, is that it is in fact realistic and immersive. In the real world, wealthy people can buy better equipment, and there is no reason to expect new SC characters should be uniformly poor. You certainly have more money than brains characters in the real world, so why not in SC? They cannot buy better skill, tough. As long as this "pay-to-win" is restricted to merely buying equipment and not directly affecting gameplay, I dont see how it diminishes my own enjoyment of the game.
The real world is a really, really ****ty game.  That Star Citizen is trying to mimic it by also being ****ty is not a point in its favor.

Also, your ship being better than the other guy's because you put money into it and he didn't definitely does directly affect gameplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 14, 2018, 07:57:53 am
Hang on a sec. If a big, powerful, expensive ship doesn't afford me any advantage, what's the ****ing point in playing the game? I'm supposed to grind for hours to level up my money and ships only for that to give me no advantage over someone who just started in a crappy fighter? Why the **** would I bother? Chris Roberts has just admitted that there is no point in actually playing his game. There's no progression.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 14, 2018, 06:36:34 pm
 :yes:
I'm glad he's catching up with my point of view.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 14, 2018, 09:23:49 pm
To be fair, it will teach all the people who have just been claiming that the ships are just a donation to help with developing the game not to bull****. "You spent $27,000 on ships and then got owned by someone in the starting fighter?"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 14, 2018, 10:19:38 pm
There's a guy called archon fury on elite who's worked through every ship using just a sidewinder.  Inspirational.  Except the same levelnof achievement won't apply to SC as you, I mean croberts just said. ;)

Hooe life's treating you good bud.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on August 16, 2018, 05:00:13 pm
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/08/crytek-lawsuit-against-cloud-imperium-games-moves-forward/66604/

Something something this is good for SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: JGZinv on August 16, 2018, 05:07:14 pm
Blah I need to offload a couple of packages, and even then I'll be stuck with a chunk of store credit. I'm just wholly disinterested with the project now, and that's coming from an early backer that used to have
nearly 1K tied up in it. Now I'm down to about $400 in two packs with about $200 in credits.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 16, 2018, 06:40:27 pm
The real world is a really, really ****ty game.  That Star Citizen is trying to mimic it by also being ****ty is not a point in its favor.

Also, your ship being better than the other guy's because you put money into it and he didn't definitely does directly affect gameplay.

Only indirectly affects gameplay. Whether you pay for the ship or not, it still plays the same.

Star Citizen is not supposed to be some ultra-competitve e-sport where the point is to win over the other guy assuming equal starting conditions. It is a space universe sim with no set victory conditions.

So as I said:
1. Someone paying for a better ship does not diminish my own enjoyment of the game
2. Every new player inevitably beginning with a starter ship is kind of unrealistic, reality should be more diverse

I can see how this could impact the game negatively if taken too far, but at this point I dont think this is the case.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 16, 2018, 07:29:46 pm
If there's no competition it's not a game.  It's a boredom simulator.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 16, 2018, 10:32:01 pm
Blah I need to offload a couple of packages, and even then I'll be stuck with a chunk of store credit. I'm just wholly disinterested with the project now, and that's coming from an early backer that used to have
nearly 1K tied up in it. Now I'm down to about $400 in two packs with about $200 in credits.
Get a refu- oh wait you can't anymore.

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/08/crytek-lawsuit-against-cloud-imperium-games-moves-forward/66604/

Something something this is good for SC.
Don't worry about a thing, otwin got this.

If there's no competition it's not a game.  It's a boredom simulator.
Star citizen is a really good boredom simulator.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2018, 06:00:56 am
Inorite,  you can tell because it costs so much.   A sure sign of quality!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 17, 2018, 11:36:45 pm
Answer the call some year
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on August 17, 2018, 11:56:34 pm
Answer the call some year

I already hang up, because the telephone costs were too high because i was placed on hold for too long  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 20, 2018, 12:03:22 am

I'm really enjoying the citizen response:

(https://i.imgur.com/k1QLnWY.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/0U1BHNN.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/tOjhXi4.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/aguEqWP.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/XpawiE5.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/mRzqGdH.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/3KG7Mhl.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/J9Zl0fa.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/mvETxDt.png)


You just don't understand game development, your honor!


The tears if CIG lose are going to be incredible.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 20, 2018, 06:54:38 am
I like the older judges.  They don't get mired in irrelevant details.    Key facts.

-They promised something by a certain date.

-Failed to deliver.

-Changed terms.

-Continued to fail.

-Changed terms again.


Guess what the judge will hopefully focus on.....hopefully.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on August 20, 2018, 02:56:26 pm
Meme-while EvE just had its largest battle earlier this month at X47L-Q.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on August 20, 2018, 08:58:07 pm
I rocked faces in that battle. Over here Eve-ing it up while other people wait for a game maybe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on August 21, 2018, 04:04:47 pm
Funny fact. Star Citizen as promised was never gonna be anything like Eve.

And Star Citizen as it is is not gonna be anything (much). :P

Just wondering what all the Eve-ers ever saw in the game in the first place or why it keeps being compared or even mentioned in the same sentence.

Is it because "space"? But if it's all about "space" could as well play Freespace instead of Eve, because Freespace has, you know, "gameplay".  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 22, 2018, 02:08:54 am
I think SC became attractive to the Eve crowd when it started to become DCS world in space. Eve players prefer monotony and minutiae over actual fun. :)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 22, 2018, 11:02:27 am
I think SC became attractive to the Eve crowd when it started to become DCS world in space. Eve players prefer monotony and minutiae over actual fun. :)
I don't think so, Eve players like minutiae that can be put on a spreadsheet, DCS is another kind of beast in that regard.

Jokes, aside: isn't Eve one of those games that is controlled a bit like a RTS/4x (that is, mouse and a lot of menus)? Because it doesn't seem you have direct control of the ships there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 23, 2018, 12:05:19 am
Having played the demo years ago, it is yes. Nothing wrong with that if you enjoy it of course.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on August 23, 2018, 02:23:28 pm
I think SC became attractive to the Eve crowd when it started to become DCS world in space. Eve players prefer monotony and minutiae over actual fun. :)
I don't think so, Eve players like minutiae that can be put on a spreadsheet, DCS is another kind of beast in that regard.

Jokes, aside: isn't Eve one of those games that is controlled a bit like a RTS/4x (that is, mouse and a lot of menus)? Because it doesn't seem you have direct control of the ships there.

You can manually pilot with WASD now, and have been able to double-click a point in space to head in that direction for some time.

Since most of the massive battles are in the cancer that is capital ships, it doesn't get a whole lot of mileage, but your interceptor and hictor pilots better know to manually change orbits that way.

Just so this isn't completely off-topic, I am absolutely amazed by the number of sudden armchair lawyers in the legions of ****izens.

And when I say "amazed" what I really mean is "**** it, let the nukes fly, we have failed."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Woolie Wool on August 24, 2018, 04:43:52 pm
To be fair, it will teach all the people who have just been claiming that the ships are just a donation to help with developing the game not to bull****. "You spent $27,000 on ships and then got owned by someone in the starting fighter?"
Or consider it another, even worse way: what if this means that as the fighter pilot who doesn't have $27,000 to spend on imaginary spaceships, you have to take orders from the guy who did, because he's got the command ship? You give your life away working a thankless job for a rich jerk in real life, why not video games too?

If there's no competition it's not a game.  It's a boredom simulator.

This is not necessarily true, though a military spaceship mumorpeger is probably not a good place to find a relaxing, non-competitive good time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 24, 2018, 05:20:43 pm
As much as I love free space and wing commander.  I do worry about those that live in virtuality.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 24, 2018, 06:09:41 pm
Afaik, Eve slows down to a very slow crawl in these mega battles. I wonder if players of a game like Star Citizen / Elite Dangerous would be able to enjoy playing under similar conditions? The dogfighting would become pinpoint precise in the super slo-mo, but it would be physically taxing on your hands maintaining that precision for hours on end. The battles would be epic if they could be later replayed and viewed in real time with everyone flying like an ace in colossal battles.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on August 24, 2018, 10:43:26 pm
Afaik, Eve slows down to a very slow crawl in these mega battles. I wonder if players of a game like Star Citizen / Elite Dangerous would be able to enjoy playing under similar conditions? The dogfighting would become pinpoint precise in the super slo-mo, but it would be physically taxing on your hands maintaining that precision for hours on end. The battles would be epic if they could be later replayed and viewed in real time with everyone flying like an ace in colossal battles.

The problem is that the EVE solution of time dilation would be utterly unacceptable to Lord Croberts, given what we've seen of his mentality in the past. I do not expect him to allow a solution like that unless his coders slip him some roofies and get him to agree to it.  :drevil:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on August 25, 2018, 02:33:43 am
It's fun to take the piss out of Star Citizen, but are there any new actual space sim action light simulations in the pipeline currently?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 25, 2018, 03:41:17 am
Afaik, Eve slows down to a very slow crawl in these mega battles. I wonder if players of a game like Star Citizen / Elite Dangerous would be able to enjoy playing under similar conditions? The dogfighting would become pinpoint precise in the super slo-mo, but it would be physically taxing on your hands maintaining that precision for hours on end. The battles would be epic if they could be later replayed and viewed in real time with everyone flying like an ace in colossal battles.

I can't see the generation who demand 60fps being willing to accept 2 fps.

Eve can get away with slowing things down because of the kind of game it is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 25, 2018, 09:52:38 am
It's fun to take the piss out of Star Citizen, but are there any new actual space sim action light simulations in the pipeline currently?

There is nothing. I would be much more critical towards Star Citizen if there were at least some examples of a similar concept but better executed. As things stand currently, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 25, 2018, 02:58:02 pm
There is nothing. I would be much more critical towards Star Citizen if there were at least some examples of a similar concept but better executed. As things stand currently, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Bull****.  You'd just move the goalposts to make sure Star Citizen is the only game you consider to be in contention.

Because "similar concept but better executed" is exactly what Elite Dangerous is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 25, 2018, 03:19:05 pm
In the land of the blind, Maslo plucked out both of his eyeballs.  He wasn't really using them for anything, so traded them in for more space Winnebagos.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 25, 2018, 04:01:36 pm
Because "similar concept but better executed" is exactly what Elite Dangerous is.

Yeah, ED and Infinite Warfare taken together pretty much cover the entirety of what SC wants to be.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 25, 2018, 05:12:29 pm
ED has no space legs, so it simply does not cover what SC wants to be. Now I realize this is a Freespace forum, where the player is firmly glued to the pilot seat, so many of you may not see this as important. But the reality is, as long as there is no other AAA MMO spacesim where you can go on a walk, SC will have quite a large niche for itself, and the money will likely continue to flow, too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 25, 2018, 05:29:56 pm
ED has no space legs, so it simply does not cover what SC wants to be. Now I realize this is a Freespace forum, where the player is firmly glued to the pilot seat, so many of you may not see this as important. But the reality is, as long as there is no other AAA MMO spacesim where you can go on a walk, SC will have quite a large niche for itself, and the money will likely continue to flow, too.

Bull****.  You'd just move the goalposts to make sure Star Citizen is the only game you consider to be in contention.

You make it way too easy.  ED may have nearly everything SC has and considerably more besides, but it's the space legs that count!

If Star Citizen can be judged by what it wants to have but does not have (nearly everything), then surely Frontier's future plans for giving ED space legs count as well, no?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wistler on August 25, 2018, 05:36:41 pm
ED has no space legs, so it simply does not cover what SC wants to be. Now I realize this is a Freespace forum, where the player is firmly glued to the pilot seat, so many of you may not see this as important. But the reality is, as long as there is no other AAA MMO spacesim where you can go on a walk, SC will have quite a large niche for itself, and the money will likely continue to flow, too.

Bull****.  You'd just move the goalposts to make sure Star Citizen is the only game you consider to be in contention.

You make it way too easy.  ED may have nearly everything SC has and considerably more besides, but it's the space legs that count!

If Star Citizen can be judged by what it wants to have but does not have (nearly everything), then surely Frontier's future plans for giving ED space legs count as well, no?

 But you can drive around on planet surfaces in ED, or do you have to be walking with legs to count?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 25, 2018, 05:55:32 pm
ED has no space legs, so it simply does not cover what SC wants to be.

Yeah, see, that's why I included Infinite Warfare in there too. Think before you post.

Also, given how long Frontier has been working on their own space legs and given how Frontier designs their game (as in, they actually design their game, with mechanics and content and all of that as opposed to the CIG approach of promising everything and the kitchen sink and selling jpgs), I'm pretty sure that what's holding them back from rolling out something along those lines has a lot to do with them not having figured out how to hook space legs into the gameplay loop in a fun way yet.

Quote
Now I realize this is a Freespace forum, where the player is firmly glued to the pilot seat, so many of you may not see this as important. But the reality is, as long as there is no other AAA MMO spacesim where you can go on a walk, SC will have quite a large niche for itself, and the money will likely continue to flow, too.

Several assumptions in there, a lot of them wrong.
1) You are assuming that there will be a true 1.0 release of Star Citizen (as in, a release in which all core gameplay elements are locked off, a core game loop exists, and there is enough content to fill a reasonable amount of time with an eye towards infinite gameplay).
2) You are assuming that there is a large-ish crowd waiting for SC to release before putting money into the game. By now, most of the people interested in this sort of game have either bought in or bought in and then requested a refund because CIG can't develop for ****, or have forgotten about the game because it hasn't actually released anything that people could agree as being great to date.
3) You are assuming that the crowd waiting for SC's release is not just relatively large in terms of the spacegame crowd, but absolutely large in terms of gaming as a whole. The problem there is that SC is the niche-iest of niche games. It wants to be a mechanically complex, multi-game-mode MMO based around a specific vision as codified by Freelancer/Wing Commander. There just isn't a huge market for games like that as the games that implement parts of the SC vision prove (Speaking of ED, No Man's Sky, X, Infinite Warfare). SC, even if released, will never be as huge as it needs to be in order to function for long.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 25, 2018, 06:17:41 pm
Yeah, see, that's why I included Infinite Warfare in there too. Think before you post.

Obviously its gotta be in one game, or it does not count. There are plenty of FPS games and quite a few space sims. The niche is a game that combines both mechanics seamlessly. In fact I believe this

Quote
No Man's Sky

is another example of the same syndrome I am talking about. I think No Man's Sky is quite an average game, to put it mildly, and in a different world it would be quite a flop. Yet the huge and disproportionate amount of hype it generated (in some ways more than Star Citizen), and the high amount of sells and players it has, can be traced to the same thing as SC - it is attempting to fill the MMO FPS spacesim gaping hole in the market, a hole that remained unfilled ever since Star Wars Galaxies ended.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 25, 2018, 07:05:15 pm
Way to ignore The_E's point.  No such gaping hole exists.  That's what Infinite Warfare's lackluster sales compared to other CoD games prove.  It's what the middling sales of E:D and No Man's Sky prove.  SC is not as big a deal as you and other citizens like to think it is.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 25, 2018, 08:41:02 pm
SC is not a big deal when compared to the likes of WoW or CoD (what is tough?). But both SC and also No Man's Sky are huge deals in spacesim market segment. Now is it a coincidence that two of the biggest games in spacesim segment are currently of questionable qualities but include space legs? I dont think so. It is a combination that attracts lots of players and they are willing to tolerate a lot of BS because they have nowhere else to go. And I dont see that changing in foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on August 25, 2018, 09:21:58 pm
How about those of us who don't give a **** about "space legs" (what an awful term) bit just want a tight, well-plotted linear space sim? Because Squadron 42 is a punch line at this point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2018, 09:31:54 pm
When you realize that space legs feature creep is the reason your crowdfounded MMO messiah became a disaster of technical debt and overpromised 'features', but you can't consciously admit it

Imagine the mediocre yet pretty Freelancer-like we could've had by now if this game hadn't desperately stapled its mouth to the crowdfunding cash hose while growing blisters and wattles of cancerously unrealistic stretch goals out of its distended asshole.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 25, 2018, 09:45:42 pm
I dont think so. It is a combination that attracts lots of players and they are willing to tolerate a lot of BS because they have nowhere else to go. And I dont see that changing in foreseeable future.

The people that had "nowhere else to go" are playing No Man's Sky and Elite right now, as we speak. Star Citizen may become a huge deal at some unspecified point in the future when they finally manage to implement a minimum viable product with even half of the functionality that No Man's Sky has right now, but SC is not there yet and is unlikely to ever get there.

And then comes the kicker:
Even if SC becomes a game worth playing, by the time it does, it will have spent so much time in early access-equivalent that anyone who ever wanted that game will have bought in already. The expected long tail of users waiting to get in that CIG is banking on (or rather, that they would be banking on if they were a more normal company) isn't going to appear. There will be no giant bump in cash influx because people decide to hop in en masse when the game launches.
Over the past few months, we've seen that exact scenario play out with PUBG: The game is still hugely popular right now, but its popularity is nowhere near where it was earlier in the year. As much revenue as it brought in (and make no mistake, it is a fantastically profitable game), it has already peaked in terms of usercount, and its post-launch monetization strategy is just the stupidest, most pointless lootbox bull**** possible.

That, on a much smaller but much more pathetic scale, is the fate waiting for Star Citizen. To continue at the envisioned scale, SC needs a lot of longterm revenue, the sort of revenue WoW generates via subscriptions for example, and outside of switching to an F2P-like monetization scheme, I do not see that happen.
Because here's the other kicker: As far as I can tell, SC is currently buoyed by a handful of people willing and able to pump thousands into jpgs. These are the sort of whales that F2P games bank on having, but because SC isn't designed as an F2P game, they have little incentive to keep spending once the game is properly out. Paradoxically, CIG have backed themselves into a corner where releasing the game is actively harmful to their business model, something that I think has never happened in the history of games.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 25, 2018, 09:48:44 pm
Imagine the mediocre yet pretty Freelancer-like we could've had by now if this game hadn't desperately stapled its mouth to the crowdfunding cash hose while growing blisters and wattles of cancerously unrealistic stretch goals out of its distended asshole.

And that's the other bit that is impossible to avoid: No matter what state SC is in on release, if it had been developed in a sane way (i.e. with the original scope as envisioned by the kickstarter with any post-kickstarter features being pushed back to post-release), we could be playing the game and be having actual opinions about the game (as opposed to opinions about the developer and their practices) right now. We could do all the comparisons to ED and NMS in earnest, without bull**** (and yeah, maslo, what you've been doing is bull****: You keep comparing your headcanon version of SC, which does not exist right now and may never exist in the form you imagine it, to actual released games that people can experience in their entirety).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on August 25, 2018, 10:14:24 pm
And furthermore, Starcitizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: redsniper on August 26, 2018, 12:08:01 am
Lol, there are actually people on HLP who are true star cit believers still. I mean I shouldn't be surprised and yet.......
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on August 26, 2018, 12:08:42 am
Imagine the mediocre yet pretty Freelancer-like we could've had by now if this game hadn't desperately stapled its mouth to the crowdfunding cash hose while growing blisters and wattles of cancerously unrealistic stretch goals out of its distended asshole.
Quoting because poetry.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on August 26, 2018, 01:02:39 am
Lol, there are actually people on HLP who are true star cit believers still. I mean I shouldn't be surprised and yet.......

There are even people who bought themselves SC passports. And the black hole still isn't satisfied yet.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 26, 2018, 08:50:20 am
Imagine the mediocre yet pretty Freelancer-like we could've had by now if this game hadn't desperately stapled its mouth to the crowdfunding cash hose while growing blisters and wattles of cancerously unrealistic stretch goals out of its distended asshole.

I can imagine it all right. And I am sure it would be an acceptable game, but I already play multiple similar games and it does not scratch that Star Wars Galaxies itch. So Id rather have them fail than release that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 26, 2018, 08:59:23 am
The expected long tail of users waiting to get in that CIG is banking on (or rather, that they would be banking on if they were a more normal company) isn't going to appear.

Not sure why you think they expect some great cash influx, they already got almost $200 million. The entire spacesim market, no matter what features you offer, is not much larger. But as long as SC is filling this space legs hole in the market, they can comfortably get $ few tens of millions per year of revenue indefinitely. That is what "filling a hole in the market" means.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wistler on August 26, 2018, 09:55:41 am
Meanwhile I’ve put 500 hours into Fractured Space and absolutely love it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 26, 2018, 11:22:47 am
Not sure why you think they expect some great cash influx, they already got almost $200 million. The entire spacesim market, no matter what features you offer, is not much larger. But as long as SC is filling this space legs hole in the market, they can comfortably get $ few tens of millions per year of revenue indefinitely. That is what "filling a hole in the market" means.

*Sigh*

That's not what *I'm* expecting. It's what you were predicting.

ED has no space legs, so it simply does not cover what SC wants to be. Now I realize this is a Freespace forum, where the player is firmly glued to the pilot seat, so many of you may not see this as important. But the reality is, as long as there is no other AAA MMO spacesim where you can go on a walk, SC will have quite a large niche for itself, and the money will likely continue to flow, too.

That's your post, wasn't it?

Anyway, let's talk game economics and how you have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote
But as long as SC is filling this space legs hole in the market, they can comfortably get $ few tens of millions per year of revenue indefinitely. That is what "filling a hole in the market" means.

You keep talking about a hole in the market with no actual evidence that a) that hole is big enough to fit a production the size of SC into it and b) that CIG can actually fill it adequately.
Now, a few tens of millions of revenue sounds like a lot, and it is. It is a LOT more than what the market can provide. As an example, FDEV, with three games in flight, manages to earn just 37 million pounds gross revenue in the last year (you see, the nice thing about FDEV being a normal company and not a scam dressed up like one is that they have to provide hard numbers for this stuff). The financial statements aren't broken down by game, but from the text of their statements, the release of Planet Coaster and its derivatives brought in a lot more money than ED does right now, since pretty much everyone who wanted to play ED is or has been playing it.

You probably missed it when I said it earlier, but CIGs big problem is that actually releasing the game represents an enormous risk for the company. Right now, all of the revenue they get (at least, the revenue they admit to getting) comes from people thoroughly convinced that there is a game at the end of the tunnel that they may get to play and who for some reason think that imagining how much fun you could be having in this game is equivalent to actually having fun in the game. When SC releases and isn't what you and others imagine it to be, the money SC will have made up to that point is it. No long-term revenue, no way to keep the dev team on board at the size it's at currently, no money to run the infrastructure SC depends on, nothing.
As long as CIG manages to keep the illusion alive that SC will be the greatest game ever made (in its particular niches), they can survive. As soon as they have to make that illusion a reality though, they will die.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 26, 2018, 03:08:32 pm
Exactly.  As long as CIG can keep selling the dream, devoted citizens will happily excuse the reality.  The more Star Citizen becomes reality, the harder it becomes to reconcile it with the dream.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on August 26, 2018, 05:21:35 pm
That's not what *I'm* expecting. It's what you were predicting.

I predict the funding will go on as usual, neither increasing nor decreasing significantly.

As an example, FDEV, with three games in flight, manages to earn just 37 million pounds gross revenue in the last year (you see, the nice thing about FDEV being a normal company and not a scam dressed up like one is that they have to provide hard numbers for this stuff). The financial statements aren't broken down by game, but from the text of their statements, the release of Planet Coaster and its derivatives brought in a lot more money than ED does right now, since pretty much everyone who wanted to play ED is or has been playing it.

FDEV earning $47 million dollars last year, and that is without even having space legs to offer, seems like it supports my point rather than the opposite. Also, there is no fixed amount of consumers that make up the spacesim market, new ones are entering the pool every year.

But there is certainly merit in discussing whether subscription is required for an online game to survive long term, instead of a one time sale. It may be a good idea and I am not opposed at all to SC going the EVE online route if it isnt financially sustainable otherwise. This seems like a separate discussion from whether there is a hole in the market SC fills or not, tough.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 26, 2018, 06:32:27 pm
All I know is that I expected a new Wing Commander with another title and some modern stuff added in but what we've seen so far is 90% a crappy niche MMO that is gonna be unplayable the moment they shut down the servers.

As an example, FDEV, with three games in flight, manages to earn just 37 million pounds gross revenue in the last year (you see, the nice thing about FDEV being a normal company and not a scam dressed up like one is that they have to provide hard numbers for this stuff). The financial statements aren't broken down by game, but from the text of their statements, the release of Planet Coaster and its derivatives brought in a lot more money than ED does right now, since pretty much everyone who wanted to play ED is or has been playing it.

FDEV earning $47 million dollars last year, and that is without even having space legs to offer, seems like it supports my point rather than the opposite. Also, there is no fixed amount of consumers that make up the spacesim market, new ones are entering the pool every year.


You missed the part where the profits were largely from Planet Coaster and related spin off titles.
The only possibility for a spacesim to be a major moneymaker is being tied with a major franchise and being developed at mid to low budget levels, but these licenses are usually handed to publishers like EA that don't do mid to low budget anymore unless it's on mobile.

PS: also **** space legs, and I leave it at that because I explained multiple times why already.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on August 26, 2018, 07:31:38 pm
Also, there is no fixed amount of consumers that make up the spacesim market, new ones are entering the pool every year.

It may surprise you to learn that the people who want to play spaceship games prefer to fly spaceships, while the ones who want to play an FPS go play an FPS.  And I feel pretty safe in saying that most people who like both space sims and FPS would rather play two separate games that are each good at one thing than a single game that is mediocre at both.

Also that the people who want to play an FPS and fly spaceships are probably more likely to enjoy something like Battlefront II than Second Life in space.  Battlefront II also happens to be less of a money-grubbing project than SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on August 26, 2018, 08:16:06 pm
Also, there is no fixed amount of consumers that make up the spacesim market, new ones are entering the pool every year.

It may surprise you to learn that the people who want to play spaceship games prefer to fly spaceships, while the ones who want to play an FPS go play an FPS.  And I feel pretty safe in saying that most people who like both space sims and FPS would rather play two separate games that are each good at one thing than a single game that is mediocre at both.

Also that the people who want to play an FPS and fly spaceships are probably more likely to enjoy something like Battlefront II than Second Life in space.  Battlefront II also happens to be less of a money-grubbing project than SC.

On point, Battlefront II with all its lootboxes shenanigans (which seems like child's play compared to the infamous JPEG sales) is still a nice game where you do both space marine and space top gun like Squadron 42 was supposed to, but for some reason with all the money in the world Roberts and his team haven't been capable of delivering.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on August 26, 2018, 08:23:18 pm
On point, Battlefront II with all its lootboxes shenanigans (which seems like child's pplay compared to the infamous JPEG sales) is still a nice game where you do both space marine and space top gun like Squadron 42 was supposed to, but for some reason with all the money in the world Roberts and his team haven't been capable of delivering.

Not to mention the Original Battlefront 2, from 2005 allowed players to run up to a fighter, hop, fly to the enemy ship, land, destroy it, and then steal another ship. Modders have since added their own ground to space combat and maps. There is also a free game that is a spiritual successor to BF2, and that game also has a very nice space to ground mechanic, and it is built by one person using the Unity engine (https://www.moddb.com/games/galactic-civil-war). There is also the game, Angels Fall First, which also uses FPS and ship combat together. That game is a good example of a small team doing early access the right way. Overall, FPS with dog-fighting is nothing new...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 26, 2018, 09:16:47 pm
It may surprise you to learn that the people who want to play spaceship games prefer to fly spaceships, while the ones who want to play an FPS go play an FPS.  And I feel pretty safe in saying that most people who like both space sims and FPS would rather play two separate games that are each good at one thing than a single game that is mediocre at both.

Also that the people who want to play an FPS and fly spaceships are probably more likely to enjoy something like Battlefront II than Second Life in space.  Battlefront II also happens to be less of a money-grubbing project than SC.

And that's something you gotta let sink in for a moment. When your monetization practices are more scummy than EA's, you done ****ed up, son.

And, yeah. SC wanting to be everything to everybody will ensure that it will be nothing for anyone.
I mean, just imagine it. You want to play SC to get some sweet spaceship action, but between each trip in your shiny spaceship, you have to go do chores in first person, because ~immersion~. Where Elite optimizes the **** out of all interactions that aren't done with a vehicle and abstracts away cargo handling and other such trifling matters, SC promises us that no such shortcuts will exist. No, if you want to do a mission or ten, you better get your ass down into some bar to talk to some NPC.

I do not see how that's an improvement.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on August 27, 2018, 12:27:54 am
Its funny Galaxies gets thrown around.  It was shut down in 2011?  Star Trek Online hovers around two thousand population maybe?  Both those have the biggest space IP franchises to draw from too boot, as opposed to pseudo-WingCommander?  That seems to indicate to me the "space legs" community is not some vast untapped sea of users.

I'd also note a lot of big "skids up" MMOs typically compromise on graphics and gameplay in order to be sustainable long term.  SC on the other hand fell into being a giant MMO as well as trying to be AAA in just about every gaming vertical possible.  The amount of money they will need post release to just keep the thing patched, let alone generate new content is going to be very difficult to sustain.  Especially since much of the playerbase has already contributed so much.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on August 28, 2018, 03:25:26 am
But how does it compare to Universal Combat
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 29, 2018, 06:39:35 pm
Refundians on Star Citizen's Gamescom presence:-

(https://i.imgur.com/R79yqEy.jpg)

And furthermore, Star Citizen is good!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on August 30, 2018, 09:10:31 pm
https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/CitizenCon-Digital-Ticket

Quote
Digital Ticket for CitizenCon 2948. Includes live streaming access to all presentations, exclusive digital items given away at CitizenCon, including an in-game wearable duster jacket, CitizenCon 2948 trophy, CitizenCon 2948 Weapon, access to purchase exclusive CitizenCon merchandise, plus an Imperator subscription for the month of October. (Subscription included with this item will begin on Oct 9th and end on Nov 9th)

(https://i.imgur.com/aTvYtZt.jpg)

Now how are we going to get all the best Star Citizen memes. :(

Reactions seem good though, this can only be good for Star Citizen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9box4p/confirmation_citizencon_stream_is_a_concierge/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9bovrm/looks_like_you_have_to_pay_to_watch_citizencon/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9bovd7/i_support_you_cig_but_i_will_not_be_buying_a/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on August 30, 2018, 09:53:30 pm
What if this is like 2016, only two years ago, when they decided at the last minute that the demo they planned to show simply wasn't ready? Can you imagine if people had paid $20 to watch a stream of that?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on August 30, 2018, 09:59:28 pm
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/334462614421897217.png?v=10)

One can only dream.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on August 31, 2018, 02:57:34 am
Hang on a sec. They want you to pay $20 to watch their adverts for a game that isn't even finished yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 31, 2018, 03:33:34 am
I think last year's fiasco (game crash during the live stream, deadly ramps, etc.) has traumatized Crobblets so much that they now try control what footage goes out.
Whatever happens during the live stream, they can later release a sanitized version to youtube.

Obviously this is good for the most open game dev project ever.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 31, 2018, 07:53:46 am
Shame on you CIG. $20. Just think about what you can get access to regarding streaming services for $20.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on August 31, 2018, 08:00:48 am
You guys have got to stop getting under Chris's skin. Some of us actually want to see this project complete, if not succeed.

Quote
I don't post often but this is a case where I will break that rule.

Why?

Because there seems to be a lot of vitriol and outrage that is unfairly directed towards Community and Marketing .

If you're upset, you should be upset at me.

Because this was my idea.

Let me give you some context.

This year's CitizenCon is much bigger than last years, with two separate stages and tracks. We did this because we felt the format we tested last year was a success and because of this we wanted to expand it to allow more people to attend and provide more opportunities to hear from and interact with the devs.

With a venue and planned attendance three times the CitizenCon in Frankfurt, with more panels (so more devs needing to travel) , more food and drink options for everyone the proposed budget for this year's CitizenCon was almost double last years. And this was without any video coverage, let alone streaming of the second stage, and a plan to just stream the opening keynote from the main stage.

Yes, you read that right, the original plan didn't have any plan for streaming anything beyond the opening keynote. There was not even video archiving of the second stage due the additional costs of getting a second video crew for that stage. Even then there was some debate as to whether it was truly worth it to spend a chunk of change to stream the opening keynote for 90 minutes when we're always in a foot race to compress it as a high-quality video and post to YouTube as quickly as possible after the demo so people can enjoy a HD Video as opposed to a crappy re-post of a Twitch Stream.

While we get a nice viewership from streaming by far the most views is always through YouTube as the resulting press coverage links to it, whether its via our official channel or in the case we aren't quick enough someone else's re-posting of our stream. In terms of showing off Star Citizen, getting a high quality video up on YouTube is always our top priority. While everyone else is having a celebratory drink or mingling after the show the video team is locked away cleaning up a cut to post online, often staying up to 2am and past to do this. Which is why there was an argument to just let the attendees see it live and everyone else an hour or so later as a nice high-quality video.

Of course, me being me, wanted more.

I felt if we were bothering to put these panels on with all our top developers we should record all of it for the community to see. And if we were recording all of it then couldn't we also stream it all for the community members that were interested? And since we constantly get criticized for our home-brew approach to videography and streaming, let's bring in a specialist company that can handle multiple simultaneous stages, cameras and streams.

Now of course this doesn't help with the budget because what I just asked about adds a low six figure amount to the cost of the event. We really try to spend the money we raise on game development not community content or events. For that we use our subscriptions and try to defray the costs with sponsors like Intel last year.

Since we originally announced CitizenCon for this year in Austin there's been multiple threads about digital passes for those that can't make it to Austin midweek, I thought let's take a leaf out of Blizzard's book and have a digital pass to allow people to virtually be there for all the presentations and the money for these passes would help offset the not inconsiderable increase in costs that I was asking for because I wanted to do it better for all of you. It was a gamble because we're committing to the increased costs without knowing how many people would take us up on it but I decided we would take the gamble this year and if it doesn't pan out we'll write it up to experience and not be as ambitious in our video and live stream goals next year.

Because we do use subscription revenue for Community Content and Events we felt that subscribers should get the streaming perk for free as it is their contribution that pays for our video shows as well as other forms of community content and engagement. Also, because concierge level backers have contributed far more than anyone could expect to help us build the crazy dream that is Star Citizen I felt they should also be included (not unlike we early PTU access as a perk)

The plan is to record all presentations at a high quality, edit and post them to YouTube as we go, with the Keynote being up as soon as possible after it finished, and the other panels going out over the following days (you got to give the video team some time; we're talking 10 hours of finished content!)

Nothing was ever planned to be pay-walled or withheld form the community, and honestly I like the idea of most people seeing the presentations in their own time as a high quality video rather than a stream of potentially questionable quality. The live-stream aspect was always intended for the most ardent community members that want to see it live as it unfolds but can't make it to the event to be there in person.

We're not likely to cover the costs of the additional coverage and live-streaming but I felt we should be fiscally responsible and try to defray at least some of additional costs, which is how the current plan came to be.

We debated back and forth about whether we want to stream the keynote and closing for everyone, and have the rest require a streaming pass or require a streaming pass for all. We ended up coming down on the side of the pass for all, mostly for our ability to deliver a high quality video to everyone in short order and control the message and coordinate any press from the opening or closing. If we can give game sites a link to a video and guarantee that they will all get it at the same time we don't have to worry about different sites all trying to preempt each other, some linking to our stream, some linking to someone's YouTube re-post.

What we didn't anticipate is how dearly some of you value watching the main CitizenCon presentation live.

I get that some of you may not be considering these nuances when you're whipping out your pitchforks, which is why I thought it would help to detail our thought process and decision process. We're always trying to give you more, at a better quality, sometimes that requires us to charge for things that we haven't in the past.

But I get that some of you could feel that you've lost something that you've had previously, and you are not a true Star Citizen fan unless you've sat through an awkward live-stream with crashes and technical glitches, so we will have the opening keynote and my closing available for everyone that has a Star Citizen account, no digital pass required, with the other sessions requiring a digital pass to see live (and remember you'll be able to see these at your leisure, no restrictions a few days later)

I just don't want to see threads about how we shouldn't live-stream and just post a polished video afterwards (because that has never happened! /s)

Peace,

-Chris
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/citizencon-streaming
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on August 31, 2018, 08:06:33 am
I can't wrap my head around just how amazingly this game project is going. Nothing can top it. It's like going to heights of gamedevelopment never before reached.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 31, 2018, 08:12:35 am
Quote
Of course, me being me, wanted more.
That's the problem, Chris!!! :hopping: :banghead: :mad: :hopping: :banghead:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on August 31, 2018, 09:49:59 am
Some of us actually want to see this project complete, if not succeed.

That ship has long since sailed.  That ship sailed when the Kickstarter started adding ludicrous stretch goals.  That ship sailed when some numpty thought that CryEngine was going to be the fastest, easiest path to making a finished game.  All that's left at the dock are the citizens with their $48,000 boarding passes for a ship that's left them behind and is never returning.  But hey, for $20 more, you can watch Chris Roberts tell you that the seagull **** is rain.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on August 31, 2018, 12:17:45 pm
Some of us actually want to see this project complete, if not succeed.

That ship has long since sailed.  That ship sailed when the Kickstarter started adding ludicrous stretch goals.  That ship sailed when some numpty thought that CryEngine was going to be the fastest, easiest path to making a finished game.  All that's left at the dock are the citizens with their $48,000 boarding passes for a ship that's left them behind and is never returning.  But hey, for $20 more, you can watch Chris Roberts tell you that the seagull **** is rain.

That ship only ever existed as a .jpg.

I know some enterprising Goon with $20 burning a hole in their pocket will pay just to record the ****show, so we'll no doubt get to bask in the glory of the highlights.

I don't know if they'll be able to top the perfect microcosm of Star Citizen that was the wheels falling off of that rover before it exploded with the shills attempting to play it making pitiful noises, though.  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 31, 2018, 12:19:46 pm

Footage from the most recent free flight weekend.

Yeah, maslo, I totally see your point now re: Space legs. A game in which you have to spend minutes glitching into your spaceship is so much better than one in which you simply fly a spaceship.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on August 31, 2018, 12:55:47 pm
That video was far more entertaining then anything that the $20 stream extravaganza could show. I had it all wrong, SC is really a comedy simulator!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on August 31, 2018, 01:01:48 pm
That video was far more entertaining then anything that the $20 stream extravaganza could show. I had it all wrong, SC is really a comedy simulator!

...that will make a lot of people cry...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on August 31, 2018, 02:07:03 pm
Some of us actually want to see this project complete, if not succeed.

That ship has long since sailed.  That ship sailed when the Kickstarter started adding ludicrous stretch goals.  That ship sailed when some numpty thought that CryEngine was going to be the fastest, easiest path to making a finished game.  All that's left at the dock are the citizens with their $48,000 boarding passes for a ship that's left them behind and is never returning.  But hey, for $20 more, you can watch Chris Roberts tell you that the seagull **** is rain.

That ship only ever existed as a .jpg.

I know some enterprising Goon with $20 burning a hole in their pocket will pay just to record the ****show, so we'll no doubt get to bask in the glory of the highlights.

I don't know if they'll be able to top the perfect microcosm of Star Citizen that was the wheels falling off of that rover before it exploded with the shills attempting to play it making pitiful noises, though.  :lol:
It won't be necessary to pay for the livestream if you just want to see the content. MikeRoz's post about what Chris said says the content will be released to all a few days later. Though I suppose it's possible if there are any gaffes they'll be edited out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on August 31, 2018, 05:13:33 pm
Good news, the memes are saved.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dl9TOe7XoAAlBTT.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 31, 2018, 05:31:48 pm
I'm glad you didn't forget to put in the appropriate amount of JPEG.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 01, 2018, 09:32:35 am
Now if the stream is ****, it's all the backers' fault.  You see, Chris wanted to have a great stream, but people didn't want to pay to watch it, and CIG just don't have the money to do it now.

You could buy Elite Dangerous for less than Chris wanted to charge to watch another ****ty SC stream.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 01, 2018, 10:57:38 am

The gameplay parts have been posted on twitter (it's basically a remake of Privateer which will probably mean day one buy for me), but this video is relevant to the topic.  ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 06, 2018, 02:23:43 am
A goon posted this in the SA thread.  CR interview in December 1994 issue of Gamestar.

https://i.imgur.com/n6GcY5i.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/51iYJOE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/daTN6VB.jpg


The interesting bit:

(https://i.imgur.com/hJfPmqh.png)

Chris Roberts wasn't involved in the coding and gameplay design of the best game he ever stuck his name on.  He just made a movie.  Not terribly surprising, but how the **** do people trust him to ~revolutionize gaming~?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on September 06, 2018, 02:52:50 am

Chris Roberts wasn't involved in the coding and gameplay design of the best game he ever stuck his name on.  He just made a movie.  Not terribly surprising, but how the **** do people trust him ~revolutionize gaming~?

Most people seem to like WC4 better.  I'm glad to meet someone else who thinks WC3 is the best WC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 06, 2018, 06:42:51 am
I like both but 4 has Lt Sosa.   Fffnnnnnnnnn
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on September 06, 2018, 08:44:01 am
Don't forget Dekker, Colonol Dekker.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 06, 2018, 09:05:58 am
"Gash" Dekker.   Literally means p**sy puncher.

Anyone else picked up on that in the last 20 years or just me?  ;)


Also he didn't get to Colonel til prophecy.   
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 06, 2018, 03:28:45 pm
Can't wait for the stream
Though I fear that we hit peak lol with the ramp crushing the car

Chris Roberts wasn't involved in the coding and gameplay design of the best game he ever stuck his name on.  He just made a movie.  Not terribly surprising, but how the **** do people trust him to ~revolutionize gaming~?
Just more confirmation that the guy really just wants to make movies and not video games

"Gash" Dekker.   Literally means p**sy puncher.

Anyone else picked up on that in the last 20 years or just me?  ;)


Also he didn't get to Colonel til prophecy.
I must not be british enough to have picked up on that  :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on September 06, 2018, 06:04:14 pm
In a way, it's a shame he isn't just interested in making movies. Because then he could devote himself to that side of things and leave his private army of game designers alone to design the game to go with it, and Star Citizen would probably have been released in full by now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on September 06, 2018, 07:40:09 pm
He did.  Made a few mediocre movies, then got driven out of Hollywood after Kevin Costner sued his production company for breach of contract (sounds familiar).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 06, 2018, 08:23:53 pm
Gawd bless Kevin Costner.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on September 06, 2018, 10:44:04 pm
Lord of War is Nick Cage's best movie, but crobbers was "only" a producer for that.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on September 06, 2018, 10:50:25 pm
Footage from the most recent free flight weekend.

Yeah, maslo, I totally see your point now re: Space legs. A game in which you have to spend minutes glitching into your spaceship is so much better than one in which you simply fly a spaceship.

This game is never getting finished.  It's just a buggy tech demo designed to part fools with their money at this point.  Just wow.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on September 07, 2018, 12:22:47 am
At this point? It's been a buggy tech demo since 2014. At least back then the Arena Commander was playable albeit janky as ****. From what I've seen of it since - the flying and fighting are worse now than what I personally experienced for myself, it's like they've somehow gone backwards.

I really hope that SC gets the documentary treatment it so desperately deserves, the post-release insights are going to be fascinating. Until then I'll wait with eager anticipation for the next episode of Sunk Cost Galaxy.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 23, 2018, 11:25:55 pm
Okay but, Starcitizen is good, right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on September 24, 2018, 06:02:30 pm
Okay but, Starcitizen is good, right?
Quote
My mother****ing computer could skull**** your dead grandmother.

Quote
I've got a ****cluster of ram!

Oh, I can tell I'm in for a nuanced analysis here.

Quote
"Oh, I just- the ships are gonna be great!" Yeah, the $20,000 ships? That's a ****ing BMW, mother****er! That's a BMW right there!"

Looks to me like BMWs start at $35,000, boss.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/yJu2jIQZgPubm/giphy.gif)

Quote
You know what's changing the world? Mother****ing Cyberpunk 2077! Damn, son! Okay, wow!
World peace and infinite kittens, too!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on September 24, 2018, 07:31:21 pm
He specified a down payment on a BMW.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on September 24, 2018, 08:07:21 pm
No wait, he's right, I'm way more relieved to know it's not worth a full BMW, just barely a third or something. I mean, that's the correct take here to have, right.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on September 24, 2018, 08:21:50 pm
No wait, he's right, I'm way more relieved to know it's not worth a full BMW, just barely a third or something. I mean, that's the correct take here to have, right.
Well ask yourself this: would you rather have 60% of a luxury car, or 100% of a starship jpg?
I thought so.
Checkermate, derek smart's goon. (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on September 24, 2018, 08:25:55 pm
For that money you can buy a Porsche; although probably only a used one but still.

It's like having... or not having.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on September 24, 2018, 08:30:02 pm
Well ask yourself this: would you rather have 60% of a luxury car, or 100% of a starship jpg?
I thought so.

I mean, a Reliant Robin is 60% of a car, and it will get you where you're going....most of the time.  Just don't turn in too hard.

What were we talking about again?  I have actually lost the plot.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on September 24, 2018, 08:40:18 pm
Everyone knows that the BMW M3 E30 is the only BMW you need though.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 24, 2018, 10:55:05 pm
As I don't deal drugs, I don't need a BMW ;)

Srsly though.   I will sell people JPGs of a BMW from Google for..........200 quid?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on September 24, 2018, 11:01:54 pm
As I don't deal drugs, I don't need a BMW ;)

Srsly though.   I will sell people JPGs of a BMW from Google for..........200 quid?

I heard once of people who bought pictures of a photoshopped diamond as background on iTunes for 800$ or so. It's been only a handful IIRC (assuming the story is true :nervous:  ), but still.

If you can't imagine this, you might simply have the wrong job. ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on September 24, 2018, 11:08:36 pm
As I don't deal drugs, I don't need a BMW ;)

Srsly though.   I will sell people JPGs of a BMW from Google for..........200 quid?

I heard once of people who bought pictures of a photoshopped diamond as background on iTunes for 800$ or so. It's been only a handful IIRC (assuming the story is true :nervous:  ), but still.

If you can't imagine this, you might simply have the wrong job. ;)
There have been apps that cost a lot of money and don't do anything except prove that you paid that money, presumably just so you can rub other people's faces in it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on September 24, 2018, 11:12:57 pm
OK I think Mr Dekker will soon have a new job. :D

Or I better seize the idea for myself...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on September 25, 2018, 12:53:58 am
Okay but, Starcitizen is good, right?
Quote
My mother****ing computer could skull**** your dead grandmother.

Quote
I've got a ****cluster of ram!

Oh, I can tell I'm in for a nuanced analysis here.


There isn't nuance in the issue itself, that guy's way of telling things is not exactly polite (and downright despicable to me) but when he says that the thing goes super slow even with a computer that has a 1080, an overpowered CPU and a lot of ram he has a point. Hell, the game doesn't even look particularly pretty, it is more or less at the same level of Elite: Dangerous but the alpah build of that game had acceptable FPS even on my old Radeon HD 7770 with 1gb of VRAM, if a game plays slow on a fricking 1080 all us common mortals have no chance of playing it, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 25, 2018, 03:56:51 am
Everyone knows that the BMW M3 E30 is the only BMW you need though.

A true connoisseur.

I laughed a bit at the Youtube guy's rant. As I've been known to do a bit (okay, a LOT) of barely focused but hilarious ranting myself...that is the rant of a believer who has been broken over the knee of disappointment.

I've been feeling the same way about DCS myself lately, but that's for another topic. Which I'll probably forget to post in.  :confused:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 01, 2018, 08:46:01 am

'sup.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 01, 2018, 10:11:28 am
As long as SC is not released it is still better than any published content.  A bird in the hand is paltry compared to two in the JPEG.  Plus  I didn't see actual physical space legs.

Am I doing it right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on October 01, 2018, 12:52:28 pm
Star Citizen is the ultimate gacha game but since it doesn't have waifus it's doomed to fail at this point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 01, 2018, 01:08:53 pm
waifus
Inb4 that's the next type of JPEG. Space waifus advertised to be put on your ship and help you with all that mundane real life crap they've put into the game they want to put into the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on October 01, 2018, 01:35:51 pm
You aren't thinking big enough, sure they can start to sell JPEGs of space waifus, but the real money will be in JPEGs of JPEGs of space waifus.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 01, 2018, 03:50:11 pm
You aren't thinking big enough, sure they can start to sell JPEGs of space waifus, but the real money will be in JPEGs of JPEGs of space waifus.
Or maybe they can sell parts of waifus. Let people design their own waifu. Start with a special $500 starter kit, and further packs of accessories at $250 a pop.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Ghostavo on October 01, 2018, 04:15:12 pm
I want MP3s of Chris Roberts describing promised JPEGs of parts of space waifus.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2018, 05:56:04 pm
Promised concept art JPEGs of JPEGs of parts of space waifus.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 01, 2018, 06:21:56 pm
This wasn't the direction I expected the thread to go after posting a science-fiction economy simulator made by Germans.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 01, 2018, 06:50:36 pm
Promised concept art JPEGs of JPEGs of parts of space waifus.

Think some people would pay money for the rights to this new Bowsette?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 01, 2018, 06:51:36 pm
This wasn't the direction I expected the thread to go...
hlp internet.jpg
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2018, 07:43:46 pm
Promised concept art JPEGs of JPEGs of parts of space waifus.

Think some people would pay money for the rights to this new Bowsette?
Don't tell Nintendo, they're not all that savvy with this internet stuff. Better not to give them any ideas.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 01, 2018, 08:03:43 pm
An interview with Chris Roberts, 2040.

Q. Mr Roberts, the world loves you for the creation of one of the longest and best eroAnime movies in history. How did the work on StarWaifu begin?

A. Back then I was working on a computer game. We had no real idea what to do with it except "let's make it awesome!", so it didn't went anywhere, but we had a lot of people willing to pay insane amounts of money for it.

Q. So it had grown out of this game project?

A. Well, one of the things we got money for was selling pictures of waifus on spaceships. We made all of them individually, and despite each costing 30k$, the demand was so huge that we decided to switch the platform and make an Anime from the JPEGs we sold.

Q. Is this the reason why the movie ended up being the by far most expensive in history, with a cost of over 450 trillion US dollars?

A. Yeah, in retrospective I sometimes wondered whether it wasn't that a good idea after all. I mean, our company went bankrupt, our country had to go through starvation, and the global financial system and the entire economy along with it had a meltdown unlike any other before, but I'm still happy how this movie turned out, so I'd say it was a huge success all things considered.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 01, 2018, 09:46:39 pm
(Snip)
Bold to assume Croberts would ever actually deliver.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 01, 2018, 09:56:24 pm
An interview with Chris Roberts, 2040.

Q. Mr Roberts, the world loves you for the creation of one of the longest and best eroAnime movies in history. How did the work on StarWaifu begin?

A. Back then I was working on a computer game. We had no real idea what to do with it except "let's make it awesome!", so it didn't went anywhere, but we had a lot of people willing to pay insane amounts of money for it.

Q. So it had grown out of this game project?

A. Well, one of the things we got money for was selling pictures of waifus on spaceships. We made all of them individually, and despite each costing 30k$, the demand was so huge that we decided to switch the platform and make an Anime from the JPEGs we sold.

Q. Is this the reason why the movie ended up being the by far most expensive in history, with a cost of over 450 trillion US dollars?

A. Yeah, in retrospective I sometimes wondered whether it wasn't that a good idea after all. I mean, our company went bankrupt, our country had to go through starvation, and the global financial system and the entire economy along with it had a meltdown unlike any other before, but I'm still happy how this movie turned out, so I'd say it was a huge success all things considered.


Q:  Mr. Roberts, now that it's 2040...whatever became of your old rival Derek Smart?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 02, 2018, 12:21:43 pm
A. Oh, that's a name I haven't heard for a long time. After having fought him in court for 14 years, I decided the best way to get rid of him was to give him the project lead for this Star Citizen thing. At first, he was excited, and told everyone how he would make everything better. Luckily, we managed to dump all our open bills on him as well. Due to this twist of fate he was the one being blamed for the terrible things that happened and the catastrophic shape the world is currently in. By the way, if you've seen Mr Smart, tell him that I'm sorry for nothing... and call the police, or somebody else to finish that job...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 10, 2018, 01:30:18 pm
So FailureToReport is streaming the CitizenCon. They took 5 mins to load the game, showed off a coffee maker and it crashed the game. Cut to commercial.

It's everything I hoped it would be and furthermore Star Citizen is good!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2018, 03:21:37 pm
I like trains
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 10, 2018, 03:26:39 pm
I am looking forward to fresh SC memes.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 10, 2018, 03:45:48 pm
I am looking forward to fresh SC memes.
ditto
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2018, 04:34:13 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/A852Raq.gif)
face over ip
good
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 10, 2018, 07:09:10 pm
The coffee maker crashed the game because you need your space waifu to make you coffee. :p
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2018, 08:16:20 pm
Elite dangerous may not have space legs, but that also means you can't break them during a live demo and die.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 11, 2018, 03:50:56 am
Elite dangerous may not have space legs, but that also means you can't break them during a live demo and die.

I'd like to point out that Prey also has space legs and lets you break them. The survival mode they added is rather ace.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2018, 09:00:24 am
But if there is one thing citizencon proved once again, it's that cig is producing a tedium/boredom simulator above all else.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 11, 2018, 09:02:34 am
But will they realistically render the sound of bones cracking as you walk around (https://youtu.be/p-ZmXVZpdPM?t=9)?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 11, 2018, 09:48:27 am
(https://i.imgur.com/A852Raq.gif)
face over ip
good

is there an actual video or just a moving jpeg?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2018, 11:26:38 am
That SQ42 trailer looked cool, but also really bad.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2018, 11:30:58 am
It's also an object (and abject) lesson in why editing is important, because that **** was edited like a long diarrhea pour.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 11, 2018, 01:34:22 pm
The SA lowlights cut for those who don't want to sit through the whole thing.


There were not that many funny moments this time... I think we really hit peak citizen with last year's hot-ramp action
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on October 11, 2018, 01:44:12 pm
"We will win! ... because we have to."

Well, I'm inspired.




Still, I'd watch that movie.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 11, 2018, 04:35:24 pm
Out of curiosity is this a Dev build they haven't bothered to QA or a Demo branch that they have been turd polishing for a couple months and is still janky as ****?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2018, 04:55:12 pm
What does your heart tell you?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 11, 2018, 05:51:30 pm
That the Code Grunts probably wanted to freeze the Demo branch six months ago.  Instead a week ago and were told they needed to add high fidelity Space Folgers to the demo. 

They screamed silently.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2018, 07:11:07 pm
The problem with pushing your game closer and closer to an actual space movie is it goes from a cool game to a bad space movie.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2018, 07:37:38 pm
That the Code Grunts probably wanted to freeze the Demo branch six months ago.  Instead a week ago and were told they needed to add high fidelity Space Folgers to the demo. 

They screamed silently.
Your heart is wise and perceptive.

The problem with pushing your game closer and closer to an actual space movie is it goes from a cool game to a bad space movie.
And that's just one of uncountable problems that Starcitizen is pushing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 11, 2018, 08:04:32 pm
Btw, Star Citizen is closing in on the $200M mark. They're at 195.2. Last year they raised more money than every other Kickstarter game combined twice over. :blah:

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/2e6aec2907ac2642aad0efc5e678ed38/tenor.gif?itemid=9168081)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 11, 2018, 09:58:13 pm
It's honestly like Roberts and the others leading this thing thought: "You know what would be a fun game?  One where you deal with all the bull**** and drudgery of real life before you actually get to do anything fun or interesting."

How can anyone look at this and think its anything other than ****ing awful?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 11, 2018, 10:29:47 pm
Oh, there's going to be 14,000 different survival meters to force you to interact with some of this stupid **** too.

You want to fly a cool space ship?  Too bad!  It's the morning, and you're groggy, and if you drink one more cup of coffee, then your character is going to have to deal with the worst kind of colonic rebellion.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 11, 2018, 10:45:27 pm
How can anyone look at this and think its anything other than ****ing awful?

Never underestimate the power of IMMERSION! Then again when I got hooked on it the current level of monotony hadn't reached what it's at yet. The station system was pretty neat, except when it kept telling me there were no pads available because of the half-dozen dudes on station.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2018, 05:55:33 am
How can anyone look at this and think its anything other than ****ing awful?

Because it is not? I love games that go out of their way to simulate not only the usual shooty stuff but also the game world itself. Yeah, muh IMMERSION.

Also, FOIP is unironically good and backer money very well spent. Response on reddit from testers is very much positive. Some glitches dont change this fact.

https://clips.twitch.tv/HyperObeseClipsmomBibleThump

Due to lack of time I have only seen the gameplay demo and nothing else, but I like what I see so far (even tough we should have been at this stage 2 years ago but oh well).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 12, 2018, 06:12:55 am
Well if reddit says its good then it must be. (https://i.imgur.com/YMHySIj.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 12, 2018, 08:03:33 am
How can anyone look at this and think its anything other than ****ing awful?
Due to lack of time I have only seen the gameplay demo and nothing else, but I like what I see so far (even tough we should have been at this stage 2 years ago but oh well).

lol so you realize they are super ****ing far behind on everything but you don't care because LULZ REALISM

Even though 3 years into the actual world development NPCs still look and act like ****.

SIX YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT. SIX. And it's still this ****ing buggy?! And I can hear "but muh Alpha", but NO, you're wrong and you should feel bad for being willfully blind.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 12, 2018, 08:35:03 am
SIX YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT. SIX. And it's still this ****ing buggy?! And I can hear "but muh Alpha", but NO, you're wrong and you should feel bad for being willfully blind.
Seven years.
I mean, development only started last year. Early days!

7 years into development and they still haven't made a decent looking first person shooter in an engine designed to create first person shooters.
7 years in development and only just now have the most rudimentary a.i. working. I'm sure squadron 42 is well underway with all this advanced a.i. they could work with these past years.
7 years, still don't have basics like the economy figured out.
7 years, every demo has devs stressing how it's still 'the early days' and doing vague promises about what you will definitely be able to do in the future.

The whole gameplay loop they showed in this demo is just unworkable. It takes forever to get to the objective, some random griefer comes along and demolishes your ship while you're out in the boonies.
Then what? Is the commando supposed to walk all the way back to his wankpod?
What if you run out of money and you don't get to spawn a new ship for whatever reason, are you forced to ride trains forever until you fork over more real life cash to get ingame credits? Become someone's turret *****? Mop the floors on the kraken?
This immersion and realism bull**** they're gunning for, appeals to a miniscule amount of people, masochists like maslo. Maslochists if you will.
They're creating a massive sandbox that's tailor made for griefers. Most normal players are going to tune out of the game fast if they're forced through two hours of tedium for 10 minutes of 'fun gameplay'. Assuming they don't clip through the planet in this janky game or get killed by some random goon while they're in transit to the boring fetch quest objective.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 12, 2018, 08:54:29 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rtJPZMu.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2018, 09:23:32 am
lol so you realize they are super ****ing far behind on everything but you don't care because LULZ REALISM

I dont care too much about the delays. One reason is that a delayed game can be eventually good, but a ****ty game is ****ty forever. Another reason is that there is no other game that tries to accomplish the same level of complexity as SC, so there is no objective standard established for how long it should take. Delayed compared to what? Maybe you indeed need a decade of building the engine for such game to be realized.

But it is true that delays are somewhat of a valid complaint, IMHO.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 12, 2018, 09:52:04 am
The whole gameplay loop they showed in this demo is just unworkable. It takes forever to get to the objective, some random griefer comes along and demolishes your ship while you're out in the boonies.
Then what? Is the commando supposed to walk all the way back to his wankpod?
What if you run out of money and you don't get to spawn a new ship for whatever reason, are you forced to ride trains forever until you fork over more real life cash to get ingame credits? Become someone's turret *****? Mop the floors on the kraken?
This immersion and realism bull**** they're gunning for, appeals to a miniscule amount of people, masochists like maslo. Maslochists if you will.
They're creating a massive sandbox that's tailor made for griefers. Most normal players are going to tune out of the game fast if they're forced through two hours of tedium for 10 minutes of 'fun gameplay'. Assuming they don't clip through the planet in this janky game or get killed by some random goon while they're in transit to the boring fetch quest objective.
This is low-key the most damning indictment of SC I've seen so far. And make no mistake, I've seen a lot of indictments.

People gasp and ooh at pretty pictures and videos (just look at r/EliteDangerous), but you're not going to retain a lot of players if the loop is boring. Again because it's the nearest competitor, people have *****ed endlessly about the grind in E:D, but at least you can fly a spaceship and pretend to be a space commander while doing it. If you have to play space-stweardess or space-janitor because you're too broke to afford even a new junker, you're going to lose players FAST. And they'll be pissed.

Quote from: cultizens (paraphrased)
But the realism! MUH REALISM! real-real-real-real.... REALISM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--hsVknT1c0)

"Realism" is a term trotted out by normie grognards who constantly claim it's something they want in games when in reality it's usually inimical to fun gameplay loops.

People sometimes know what they want, but they're often really bad at expressing it, and when asked what they want they'll often say what sounds good. (https://www.enablemarketing.ie/can-business-learn-spaghetti-sauce/)

>What do you want in your pasta sauce?
"Authentic style!"
("Authentic" Italian-style pasta sauce is runny and thin, and tends to sell poorly, regardless of what consumers say)

>What sort of coffee do you like?
"Rich, dark roast!"
(Flavored roasts and sweetened drinks fly off the shelves, while only 35% of coffee drinkers take it black. (http://www.e-importz.com/coffee-statistics.php))

>What do you like in your video games?
"REALISM!"
(ummmmmmmm........ (https://www.polygon.com/2017/2/27/14755644/minecraft-sales-122m-copies))

-------------

tl;dr Scam Citizen boosters are either bamboozled normies or cultizens who are too deep in the sunk-cost fallacy hole to acknowledge they wasted their money.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 12, 2018, 10:40:11 am
Seven years.
I mean, development only started last year. Early days!

7 years into development and they still haven't made a decent looking first person shooter in an engine designed to create first person shooters.
7 years in development and only just now have the most rudimentary a.i. working. I'm sure squadron 42 is well underway with all this advanced a.i. they could work with these past years.
7 years, still don't have basics like the economy figured out.
7 years, every demo has devs stressing how it's still 'the early days' and doing vague promises about what you will definitely be able to do in the future.

Look, when Duke Nukem Forever actually released, the industry needed a new high-profile piece of vaporware to market, especially since crowdfunding has made perpetually marketing high-profile vaporware into a viable business model.

Speaking of, what's the over-under on when the first big engine swap (and scrapping of all existing assets) will be?  CryEngine 3/4/Lumberyard is already a little long in the tooth.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on October 12, 2018, 11:26:02 am
So, with Squadron 42 they've been reworking the cutscenes.
I always think of that "I met Ellen Page" joke in that Jimquisition about David Cage when I see those.

>What do you want in your pasta sauce?
"Authentic style!"
("Authentic" Italian-style pasta sauce is runny and thin, and tends to sell poorly, regardless of what consumers say)


?
Thin as compared to what?
Being Italian I have a sort of morbid fascination with the ways foreigners butcher our food.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Bryan See on October 12, 2018, 12:51:15 pm
So, with Squadron 42 they've been reworking the cutscenes.
I always think of that "I met Ellen Page" joke in that Jimquisition about David Cage when I see those.

>What do you want in your pasta sauce?
"Authentic style!"
("Authentic" Italian-style pasta sauce is runny and thin, and tends to sell poorly, regardless of what consumers say)


?
Thin as compared to what?
Being Italian I have a sort of morbid fascination with the ways foreigners butcher our food.

Compared to spaghetti, or bihun.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on October 12, 2018, 02:05:57 pm
So, with Squadron 42 they've been reworking the cutscenes.
I always think of that "I met Ellen Page" joke in that Jimquisition about David Cage when I see those.

>What do you want in your pasta sauce?
"Authentic style!"
("Authentic" Italian-style pasta sauce is runny and thin, and tends to sell poorly, regardless of what consumers say)


?
Thin as compared to what?
Being Italian I have a sort of morbid fascination with the ways foreigners butcher our food.

Compared to spaghetti, or bihun.
Now I'm even more confused.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 12, 2018, 02:31:05 pm
As an addendum to Spoon's point, I'd relate my experience with Naval Action.

I am a big fan of the Age of Sail, being an avid reader of Alexander Kent, Patrick O'Brien, etc. so the setting was perfect.  The graphics were great bordering on beautiful and the ship models were well researched and detailed.  The combat gameplay, in my opinion, was very solid.  The need to manage position, wind and sail plan coupled with the a mangeably complex control scheme made for a lot of fun. 

Now your ships had limited durability, based on quality, so a base ship only had a single "life" but a gold could suffer three or four losses before it was gone.  In port the AI typically offered a few classes in base quality but if you were interested in a particular ship or a better quality one you had to build it yourself or buy one from another player.  During the early grind this was not a problem since the basic schooner rigs were cheap and plentiful and you spent your time tooling around getting into scraps, but around the time you ground out to square rigged Sixth and Fifth rates you wanted to start sailing a better quality ship.  Now you are stuck with the availability of what folks are selling and at what prices, so you look into building your own.  Enter a new grind separate from your combat XP/Rank.  Now you are building mines, shipyards and boats you don't need so you can unlock the ones you do want to build.  But you need building materials that are strewn across the map on different islands.  Okay so now I need to go take a merchant ship and sail up and down the Caribbean to buy and sell resources (Let me regularly check the supply and demand at each port so I get the best market prices) so I can build the warships I want to play.  But wait, there is no fast travel or navigational aids and age of sail means tacking up wind takes forever because REALISM.  But you know, I love the setting, the combat gameplay is good and I really want to sail a Constitution so I will bear with it, night after night.  However, even when you actually get the ship you wanted, you just spent so much time getting a ship that might be lost completely in three battles?.

Wait a minute...  I picked this up so I could skipper a Fifth Rate like I was Jack Aubrey or Richard Bolitho.  Why the **** am I spending most of my nights being a One Man British East India Company?  Why am I even playing this?

I stuck it out for a few months because of the setting and the core combat mechanics but eventually succumbed to the need to have fun, not a second job.

So, with Squadron 42 they've been reworking the cutscenes.
I always think of that "I met Ellen Page" joke in that Jimquisition about David Cage when I see those.

>What do you want in your pasta sauce?
"Authentic style!"
("Authentic" Italian-style pasta sauce is runny and thin, and tends to sell poorly, regardless of what consumers say)


?
Thin as compared to what?
Being Italian I have a sort of morbid fascination with the ways foreigners butcher our food.

Compared to spaghetti, or bihun.
Now I'm even more confused.
Chances are he is as well.  Best you just disregard his comment.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 12, 2018, 03:06:23 pm
It was wiki admittedly, but it said the budgets for WC3 and WC4 were four and 12 million dollars respectively. 

This project gets 200 million...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2018, 03:06:46 pm
This topic has brought to mind a line from some wingman in some Freespace mission that is something like "I hate escort duty. 4 hours of boredom for 5 minutes of action. If you're lucky." And I always took the purpose of that line to be saying to you the player aren't you lucky that you get to skip such tedium and get straight to the action?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SamVision on October 12, 2018, 03:55:23 pm
words
That's actually kind of funny to me. The reason I got into Freespace many years back is because I was trying to play Freelancer and noticed that there was always a lot of time spent out of the action and I got bored. I liked the combat but everything else was too tedious, so I looked up what was considered top of the line for space combat games and found Freespace.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 13, 2018, 12:19:59 pm
As an addendum to Spoon's point, I'd relate my experience with Naval Action.

I am a big fan of the Age of Sail, being an avid reader of Alexander Kent, Patrick O'Brien, etc. so the setting was perfect.  The graphics were great bordering on beautiful and the ship models were well researched and detailed.  The combat gameplay, in my opinion, was very solid.  The need to manage position, wind and sail plan coupled with the a mangeably complex control scheme made for a lot of fun. 

Just wanted to say I absolutely adore the Aubrey-Maturin series, it was the first set of books that introduced me to the era (outside of Total War games) and wider historical fiction.

FreeSpace always had a nice way of making you feel like just another pilot while also thrusting you right into the action. The only action you'll get in Star Citizen is from your space waifu.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 13, 2018, 12:30:41 pm
FreeSpace always had a nice way of making you feel like just another pilot while also thrusting you right into the action. The only action you'll get in Star Citizen is from your space waifu.
Not that the demo they showed on citizencon had female models of any kind in it anywhere.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 13, 2018, 02:17:26 pm
Your space husbando, then?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on October 15, 2018, 07:51:57 am
FreeSpace always had a nice way of making you feel like just another pilot while also thrusting you right into the action. The only action you'll get in Star Citizen is from your space waifu.
Not that the demo they showed on citizencon had female models of any kind in it anywhere.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 15, 2018, 08:02:19 am
(https://i.imgur.com/OIZdtHb.gif) vid applies perfectly to cig, gazillion promises for immersion, 7 years in development, still no female character models.

I wanna play a Farmerlock.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on October 15, 2018, 09:07:15 am
Pincers are hard to animate, come on
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 15, 2018, 09:18:34 am
Does SC support pets and agriculture yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 15, 2018, 10:48:40 am
Does SC support pets and agriculture yet?
Of course not, it's been promised, though.

https://imgur.com/r/starcitizen/BhUxp
(https://i.imgur.com/2pC1CTv.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 15, 2018, 11:30:30 am
Does SC support pets and agriculture yet?
Of course not, it's been promised, though
Do you mean with that it is incomplete like everything else or that things like that are, well, unnecessary for a space sim? :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 15, 2018, 11:55:06 am
Does SC support pets and agriculture yet?
Of course not, it's been promised, though
Do you mean with that it is incomplete like everything else or that things like that are, well, unnecessary for a space sim? :D
Both.

Furthermore, Star citizen is good.

https://clips.twitch.tv/BlatantCarelessWallabyFUNgineer
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 15, 2018, 12:51:30 pm
That's horrifyingly amusing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on October 15, 2018, 12:56:41 pm
Does SC support pets and agriculture yet?
Of course not, it's been promised, though.

https://imgur.com/r/starcitizen/BhUxp

Have they sold pictures of Space Crop Dusters yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Firesteel on October 15, 2018, 02:58:16 pm
(https://fsmedia.imgix.net/94/10/a0/f1/c004/4739/b2af/b147783f5282/traveling-through-hyperspace-aint-like-dusting-crops-boy.jpeg?auto=format%2Ccompress&w=500)

"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops boy"

Maybe they'll get the space crop dusters done before the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 15, 2018, 03:25:51 pm
Maybe they'll get the space crop dusters done before the rest of the game.

I hope so! Elseway all players have to starve!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 15, 2018, 07:26:43 pm
I hope so! Elseway all players have to starve!
I'd consider that a win.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on October 15, 2018, 07:27:33 pm
How do people keep FALLING FOR THIS ****.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 15, 2018, 07:39:35 pm
How do people keep FALLING FOR THIS ****.

For my part, I'm watching trash movies quite regular. Makes me laugh and enjoy the good stuff more.

Besides that, it's quite entertaining to read. :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 15, 2018, 08:17:22 pm
How do people keep FALLING FOR THIS ****.

For my part, I'm watching trash movies quite regular. Makes me laugh and enjoy the good stuff more.

Besides that, it's quite entertaining to read. :D

MST3K:  Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 15, 2018, 08:44:42 pm
Kinda, the German version of that is called SchleFaZ (worst movies of all time). :D But the difference is that even though the cinematic guys know nothing about making good movies, they atleast managed to release something.

Given my own history of not managing to get stuff finished, I'm somehow happy to see that the professionals can screw up as well... :drevil:
Unless they're doing that on purpose and put the 200mio$ (or a part of it) into their own pockets somehow, what would make constantly defining new goal probably more profitable than to actually release the game. Dream marketing so to say.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 15, 2018, 09:32:46 pm
A. Oh, that's a name I haven't heard for a long time. After having fought him in court for 14 years, I decided the best way to get rid of him was to give him the project lead for this Star Citizen thing. At first, he was excited, and told everyone how he would make everything better. Luckily, we managed to dump all our open bills on him as well. Due to this twist of fate he was the one being blamed for the terrible things that happened and the catastrophic shape the world is currently in. By the way, if you've seen Mr Smart, tell him that I'm sorry for nothing... and call the police, or somebody else to finish that job...

Q.  Mr. Roberts, one more question if I may...with the world in the state that it is and with your personal wealth that you have acquired over the years...have you considered expanding your businesses beyond Earth?  Could we see Roberts Industries on the Moon or Mars someday?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 16, 2018, 05:27:45 am
How many of star citizens boxes has this ticked?

Asking for a friend....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 16, 2018, 07:04:08 am
Q.  Mr. Roberts, one more question if I may...with the world in the state that it is and with your personal wealth that you have acquired over the years...have you considered expanding your businesses beyond Earth?  Could we see Roberts Industries on the Moon or Mars someday?

A. Hahahahaha, no. Not really, that would be really expensive to do actually. But it's interesting that you ask - it's just that as a master of illusion, I really have better ways to do this.

Q. And those would be...?

A. I wanted to make use of what the original Star Citizen project left behind and create a true space simulator. The player will feel like a real astronaut, with the same duties - several hours of advanced research and workout everyday - and a realistic display of relativistic time dilation and travel time. The journey to the moon will take only 3 days, and the one to Mars is estimated to take only 5 months for one way - it's a bit shorter than I thought but I think it still counts as realistic. That way the player can feel almost exactly like a real astronaut landing on the Red Planet! I can very well imagine that many players would be willing to pilot a regular shuttle after a couple rounds to distract themselves from reality.

Q. Wow. Something releasable coming out of Star Citizen...! Does that... does that mean you want to resurrect Star Citizen!?

A. I'm playing with the idea to do so. It's nagging me that I left it unfinished. Sure, I could say "It made me rich, the rest didn't work out" but that's not me. Also, as much as I hate Mr Smart, some of the ideas he had for the project were simply too good to be wasted; in particular that he added these alien species he named... ehm... something like Zods and Shivs, not sure anymore. And he wanted to have a supernova! In-game!

Q. Oh my God! But with the experience from the initial take on it, wouldn't it be more likely that you rather finish the world than Star Citizen?! The costs-

A. I understand your fears. But the economy will be alright soon. During the initial project, we started to implement an economic simulation model into SC that was able to predict the consequences of every buisness action better than any other before. But since we ran into a tough bug that caused the game to crash at the worst possible point - right after the morning coffee - we were never had the time to finish it; hence the bankrupt of our company... While I'm a huge fan of realism, maybe in retrospective our failure was that we tried to put the reality into a game, instead of simply adapting reality to the game. One way or another, remember my words - once the economy has recovered, there'll be a second take on Star Citizen!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on October 17, 2018, 09:34:13 pm
There should be a new stretch goal that will add in gaming into the SC Universe. That way when I get bored with the monotony of playing the immersion I have an escape in game...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on October 17, 2018, 11:42:55 pm
So what you're suggesting is that for another $280 million, they might make a video game?  Sign me up!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 18, 2018, 05:51:43 pm
Beautiful
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 18, 2018, 06:14:11 pm
Zombieblonde is best girl.

Zombie x Drunk'n'Drugs x Mentally disturbed. How many games have such a complex characterdesign. Awesome.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 20, 2018, 12:41:37 pm
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1053666019816980480.html
limited supply of digitial jpgs
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 23, 2018, 04:24:43 pm
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1053666019816980480.html
limited supply of digitial jpgs

It consistently amazes me that Derek Smart, of all people, is a voice of reason on this thing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on October 23, 2018, 04:43:25 pm
We're living in the weirdest timeline.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 23, 2018, 04:52:10 pm
Maybe that's it.  WE are the ones in the Mirror Universe.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 24, 2018, 05:57:12 am
In the Prime timeline Star Citizen was released 4 years ago to universal acclaim, President Clinton upheld the Paris agreement and the UK begrudgingly remains in the EU.

And Interplay sold the FreeSpace rights back to THQ Nordic. V is developing FS3 right now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on October 24, 2018, 06:28:53 am
And Interplay sold the FreeSpace rights back to THQ Nordic. V is developing FS3 right now.

Well, your post was good until this line of horror.  ;)

So i actually still prefer this timeline.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on October 24, 2018, 06:36:54 am
In the prime universe Interplay advertised Freespace 2 meaning that it sold enough to keep them afloat. Volition went on to develop 4 other space shooter IPs and plan to finally return to the Freespace universe after a 5 year break early next year.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on October 24, 2018, 06:44:35 am
In the prime universe Interplay advertised Freespace 2 meaning that it sold enough to keep them afloat. Volition went on to develop 4 other space shooter IPs and plan to finally return to the Freespace universe after a 5 year break early next year.

Hopefully in that timeline it went the original plan, that the knowledge of FreeSpace, Red Faction and Saints Row was used for Descent 4 finally. :D

Maybe in this prime universe Chris Roberts was even able to finish his own vision of Freelancer and Freelancer 2 and his studio was able to release the whole Starlancer trilogy. So there would not be even the need for Star Citizen  :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 24, 2018, 06:58:49 am
At first, :v-old: created the FS2 expansion pack, then FS3, FS4, FS5... I think we're at 9 now...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 24, 2018, 07:05:54 am
FreeSpace: The Ninth Dimension
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 24, 2018, 07:41:47 am
And Interplay sold the FreeSpace rights back to THQ Nordic. V is developing FS3 right now.

Well, your post was good until this line of horror.  ;)

So i actually still prefer this timeline.

Well at least it isn't the timeline where it was developed by Derek Smart and published by Chris Roberts. :P

In other news, apparently there's an actual spaceship shop in the SC pre-alpha (it's pre-alpha now because that's what CR is referring to it as). Minus the ships and purchasing of ships of course:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzTecIeunqc
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on October 24, 2018, 08:20:55 am
Wait, so SC's been downgraded? :wtf:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 24, 2018, 02:01:25 pm
Not exactly, misleading wording on my part, sorry. CIG and the player base are still referring to it as the "Alpha", but CR referred to it as pre-alpha multiple times during the last citcon, so who knows at this point.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on October 30, 2018, 04:01:32 pm
Here's some tl;dr on the current star citizen experience that you can expect from this 200 million dollar masterpiece.

(https://i.imgur.com/ertUIkP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Nv0EKFL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/otF8Blk.jpg)

Still good it seems
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 17, 2018, 01:40:32 pm
$200 million reached!

Thank you all for your generous contributions :D

Next stop is patch 3.3.5 with planet Hurston, should be out in a week or so with lots of new content. Framerate is greatly improved since last patch, however nothing changed on the crashes and bugs front..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 17, 2018, 02:47:19 pm
$200 million, you say?  With that amount of money, some video game developers could have made a video game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on November 17, 2018, 03:04:35 pm
$200 million, you say?  With that amount of money, some video game developers could have made a video game.

No kidding.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on November 17, 2018, 04:51:52 pm
$200 million reached!

Thank you all for your generous contributions :D

Next stop is patch 3.3.5 with planet Hurston, should be out in a week or so with lots of new content. Framerate is greatly improved since last patch, however nothing changed on the crashes and bugs front..
So are we actually at the point where we can start discussing gameplay concepts, like the optimal equipment for particular ship hulls, time-efficient ways to make money, or the best dogfighting tactics?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 17, 2018, 05:34:04 pm
Going from 5fps to 10fps is indeed a massive improvement. Double the framerate, ladies and gentlemen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 17, 2018, 07:04:34 pm
So are we actually at the point where we can start discussing gameplay concepts, like the optimal equipment for particular ship hulls, time-efficient ways to make money, or the best dogfighting tactics?

Nope. Come back in two years.

Going from 5fps to 10fps is indeed a massive improvement. Double the framerate, ladies and gentlemen.

40-60 fps on my Radeon 390X at 1080p very high. It is no 144Hz but this is the first patch when I feel framerate is no longer significantly impacting the gameplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 17, 2018, 07:51:21 pm
Nope. Come back in two years.
This seems like an incredibly optimistic estimate.

40-60 fps on my Radeon 390X at 1080p very high. It is no 144Hz but this is the first patch when I feel framerate is no longer significantly impacting the gameplay.
Nah lol, the game completely buckles under any kind of actual action. 40-60fps during peaceful moments with only a handful of commandos on screen says nothing.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on November 18, 2018, 01:44:46 am
Nah lol, the game completely buckles under any kind of actual action. 40-60fps during peaceful moments with only a handful of commandos on screen says nothing.
You've just got to think positive - 40-60fps during peaceful moments with only a handful of commandos on screen- it's not crashing!! IT'S ALIVE!!!! IT'S ALIVE!!!!! THE GAME MADE FROM BODYPARTS OF A SPACE SIMULATOR, SIMS, AN EGO SHOOTER AND TRADE SIMULATOR IS ALIVE!!!!!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2018, 01:30:21 pm
So are we actually at the point where we can start discussing gameplay concepts, like the optimal equipment for particular ship hulls, time-efficient ways to make money, or the best dogfighting tactics?

Nope. Come back in two years.

You've been saying crap like this since this thread was started.  You set yourself a deadline for when you'll start being skeptical, that deadline comes and goes, and you find a way to rationalize your continued belief in SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 18, 2018, 02:05:23 pm
Going from 5fps to 10fps is indeed a massive improvement. Double the framerate, ladies and gentlemen.

40-60 fps on my Radeon 390X at 1080p very high. It is no 144Hz but this is the first patch when I feel framerate is no longer significantly impacting the gameplay.

At the cost of the game ignoring things outside of a certain range, like the sniper example spoon posted.

They're having a free fly week starting on the 23rd for you masochists out there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 18, 2018, 08:47:05 pm
You've been saying crap like this since this thread was started.  You set yourself a deadline for when you'll start being skeptical, that deadline comes and goes, and you find a way to rationalize your continued belief in SC.

I will not become truly skeptical if I see significant progress being made. Last year was pretty good in that regard, so my hype levels recovered somewhat. There is no hard deadline.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 18, 2018, 08:49:35 pm
That's kind of the big issue.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on November 18, 2018, 08:54:28 pm
I will not become truly skeptical if I see significant progress being made. Last year was pretty good in that regard, so my hype levels recovered somewhat. There is no hard deadline.
You have a really funny definition of "significant progress."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SamVision on November 21, 2018, 04:46:56 pm
Thy should focus on getting SQ42 finished so they at least have something to show.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2018, 10:23:33 pm
https://clips.twitch.tv/AmorphousArborealKoalaBigBrother
fps so smooth, you could butter your toast with it.

26 fps with a single vehicle on a completely empty landscape, devoid of all flora, fauna or action. Truly the masterpiece of our time.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Deathsnake on November 25, 2018, 10:05:48 am
We go Freespace 2
(https://i.redd.it/o1omgh4o6c021.png)

Idris-P owner can upgrade to the Idris-K with missileturret and Size 10 Beamguns. The Railgun of the Idris-M still better.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 25, 2018, 10:29:25 am
We go Freespace 2
(https://i.redd.it/o1omgh4o6c021.png)

Idris-P owner can upgrade to the Idris-K with missileturret and Size 10 Beamguns. The Railgun of the Idris-M still better.

What's the most efficient way to get this thing through gameplay though
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 25, 2018, 11:05:50 am
That goes against the croberts business model surely?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on November 25, 2018, 11:21:31 am
I just love pointing out that the question above is still a rhetorical one.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on November 25, 2018, 01:14:22 pm
There would need to be a savior patch that adds gameplay first.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on November 25, 2018, 03:32:07 pm
We go Freespace 2
(https://i.redd.it/o1omgh4o6c021.png)

Idris-P owner can upgrade to the Idris-K with missileturret and Size 10 Beamguns. The Railgun of the Idris-M still better.

What did I say? Croberts wants D.Smart as a companion to aid him on his game-creation oddyssey.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on November 28, 2018, 12:13:32 am
What did I say? Croberts wants D.Smart as a companion to aid him on his game-creation oddyssey.
Real talk, they deserve each other.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on December 19, 2018, 12:08:04 am
Has there been any word lately on Squadron 42?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 19, 2018, 09:15:36 am
Has there been any word lately on Squadron 42?

There should be an update on SQ42 this week I think.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 19, 2018, 12:52:59 pm
Join the fight 2018.

I'm sure the update will be full of truth and totally not full of bull****, lies and more empty promises.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 20, 2018, 02:52:03 am
I'm willing to bet we as a community could model "similar" craft (but not similar enough to infringe IP) and release a Squadron 41 campaign set in the same universe as <insert film name here> before Sq42 is halfway done.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 20, 2018, 04:45:02 am
I'm willing to bet we as a community could model "similar" craft (but not similar enough to infringe IP) and release a Squadron 41 campaign set in the same universe as <insert film name here> before Sq42 is halfway done.

Somebody already did a standalone base mod for a Star Citizen TC y' know.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2018, 09:56:28 am
And it has better gameplay too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 20, 2018, 10:40:56 am
Looks mostly like Diaspora according to the files... but atleast you could fly the Merlin.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 20, 2018, 03:12:43 pm
SQ42 beta scheduled for Q2 2020

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42)

This is obviously great news for Store Citizen!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 20, 2018, 03:19:32 pm
 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 20, 2018, 04:14:34 pm
Quote
Future Work Estimates Are Just That: Estimates

I don't understand how people can criticize them. I mean, the Star Citizen Devs all have their Real Lives that consumes a lot of time (golfing, party etc). It's not like they're paid for their work on SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 20, 2018, 04:15:26 pm
Quote
This helps to help the team focus and scope their tasks, especially in the case of tech development. Every team needs target dates, so you may see dates adjust when we get more accurate information and understanding of what’s needed to be completed.

You'd be forgiven for thinking they had just started development on SQ42 instead of being at it for the past 7 years.

Come to think of it, with a 1.5 year deadline, they probably are just starting on it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 20, 2018, 04:17:32 pm
But how can this be? Didn't Croberts promise SQ42 several years ago?! Surely he couldn't be a lying con artist who scams dumb backers who have more money than brains?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on December 20, 2018, 04:54:31 pm
Q2 2020? Really?!

Until then they need a new game engine, because Star Citizen begins to look outdated already.

Not to speak of, that you will be able to play SC on Smartphones then... and that has nothing to do with Roberts' vision that want to show, that a PC is still the Masterrace.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2018, 05:51:20 pm
Ben said in 2015 that he played through every mission of SQ42 and it was amazing then.  Imagine how much better it is now!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 20, 2018, 08:03:38 pm
Ben said in 2015 that he played through every mission of SQ42 and it was amazing then.  Imagine how much better it is now!

Am I reading a little cynism there?!? When the game will be out it be retro gold! :cool:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 20, 2018, 09:18:44 pm
I can't help but notice that nobody is talking about how CIG released their financials for everyone to see. Surely the top minds of HLP/SomethingAwful/Gooncitizen_Refunds will be able to point out the line item for CR's nose candy?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 20, 2018, 10:16:49 pm
SQ42 beta scheduled for Q2 2020

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42)

This is obviously great news for Store Citizen!

By that time we'll likely have Rebel Galaxy Outlaw on Steam.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on December 20, 2018, 10:20:14 pm
I am incredibly happy that this thread title is still so amazingly relevant X years later.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 20, 2018, 10:41:32 pm
That's making me curious somehow. Let's do a little thought experiment and skip a couple years: imagine yourself on the 1.1.2025. What would the status of Star Citizen be like?

a) Still unreleased with people still funding for some reason.
b) Canceled entirely.
c) Released and one of the most popular games ever made (maybe leadership change?).
d) Released but only mediocre (more or less like a normal game).
e) Released but epic fail.
f) Something different.

I'm somewhere between D and F.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 01:40:38 am
B, D, E, F.

Elon Musk will have us fighting daleks by the time SC releases.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 02:21:12 am
8 years development time for a very complex game, while also establishing a new studio and under significantly changing scope and funding. 2020 is kinda disappointing not unreasonable.

CIG now seems to be valued at ~500 million, so even if pledges stop tomorrow (and they will not), they will have enough funding to continue for a few years by inviting investors.

Alpha 3.4 is released today. Good progress on PU this year.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 02:33:59 am
8 years development time for a very complex game, while also establishing a new studio and under significantly changing scope and funding.

Squadron 42 isn't that complex a project, CIG's corporate structure is needlessly byzantine, and changing scope is ... well. That's really a management competence thing, isn't it? As in, competent management would've been able to reign in the Robertsian impulse to make a game that is everything to everyone (but, most importantly, Roberts' last chance to work with real Hollywood actors).

8 years dev time is completely insane. Very few projects with a dev cycle that protracted have ever come out good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 03:02:20 am
Squadron 42 depends on LOTS of Persistent Universe technology and that is what makes it so complex. In many ways it will be more like Skyrim or RDR rather than an ordinary linear campaign.

changing scope is ... well. That's really a management competence thing, isn't it?

You are implying changing scope is a bad thing, but it is not. Change of the scope is the correct decision because funding greatly changed, too. Expanding the game when more funds are available is a good thing. Even if it takes longer to release. As long as they ultimately deliver a bigger game, of course. With at least several years of operation remaining, I am quite confident they will.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 03:05:02 am
Funding shouldn't change the original design.   Invest the extra in servers or stop taking money. 
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 03:07:03 am
Funding shouldn't change the original design.   Invest the extra in servers or stop taking money. 

That makes zero sense.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 03:15:37 am
You are implying changing scope is a bad thing, but it is not. Change of the scope is the correct decision because funding greatly changed, too. Expanding the game when more funds are available is a good thing. Even if it takes longer to release. As long as they ultimately deliver a bigger game, of course. With at least several years of operation remaining, I am quite confident they will.

Dude.

I write software for a living. Changing scope is such a bad thing that the industry has developed a bunch of ways to deal with it in an orderly manner that still allows developers to produce something usable, no matter how many times the customer changes their minds in the process.
Changing scope is always a bad thing. It's always disruptive and always causes issues and delays above and beyond what even the most conservative estimate showed. For a project to change scope as much as Star Citizen has is almost certainly going to be fatal (see also: Duke Nukem Forever, Daikatana). It is certainly not a recipe for success; There is no game in video game history that had its scope changed as much as Star Citizen did, and no game in history with such a shaky foundation in terms of its business model.

Tell us, maslo, what's the easiest way to earn Idris money in game? Until you can answer that question (i.e. until such time as CIG has figured out how to build an ingame economy [or, for that matter, a game stable enough to allow development of an economy]), I'd be a bit more wary about any "good news" coming out of CIG.

Funding shouldn't change the original design.   Invest the extra in servers or stop taking money. 

That makes zero sense.

Au contraire, mon frere, it makes all kinds of sense. We've seen this again and again in crowdfunded projects: The likelihood of a project succeeding depends a lot on how well the project is budgeted and planned out before the campaign even starts. That includes budgeting and scheduling any and all stretch goals. CIG never did that, they just threw out tons of commitments with no real idea of what the scope actually was.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 03:25:15 am
Funding shouldn't change the original design.   Invest the extra in servers or stop taking money. 

That makes zero sense.


That makes zero sense.   See above.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 03:25:53 am
You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million. Developing a $20 million game when you can do a $200 million one would be utter stupidity, and you know it. "Changing scope is bad" may be a good heuristic but it completely fails for projects such as Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 03:30:12 am
If someone was selling a product, but needed 500 quid to fund and produce it, once they have that total, they should produce and release it.   If they get extra,  they should not change that design because greed.   They should say we've got enough,  no more needed.   "A kettle doesn't need afterburners or bluetooth. -  SC is a leaky kettle with 7 power cords and a lid with a 4 tumbler combinarion lock because its fancier than standard"colonel decker 2018
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 03:38:03 am
I fundamentally disagree with that kind of thinking. You should scope your product to the funding. Someone offers you more money to release a better kettle, you should go for it. Not because of greed (greedy people dont spend the money funding developer salaries), but because it would likely make the kettle better.

Also, Star Citizen is not just a kettle. A high-end MMO game can meaningfully eat $ hundreds of millions for development and then ask for more. We are still in early days of online gaming and there is so much technology and content to develop.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 03:46:58 am
Online gaming is over 20 years old. 
Just because you disagree doesn't mean we're wrong.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 03:50:28 am
You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million. Developing a $20 million game when you can do a $200 million one would be utter stupidity, and you know it. "Changing scope is bad" may be a good heuristic but it completely fails for projects such as Star Citizen.

Again, no, wrong. I don't know what you do for a living, but this runs counter to everything you learn about project management in the software industry.

Not only is it possible to avoid changing your project's scope, it is imperative that you do so. Because once you start adding things that haven't been planned for in your original estimates, those estimates are now worth ****. Adding more of what you already planned to have, more varied ships or more planets or more voice acting or whatever, that's easy. You can throw money at more artists for all your budget's worth. Adding something that wasn't really on the table in the first place (like, say, best-in-class FPS gameplay), that's going to be a problem, as Star Citizen has so beautifully demonstrated.

Star Citizen, as originally pitched, could have been done by now (by a competent developer, like Frontier for example). Star Citizen with everything promised after the Kickstarter ran its course could have been done by now.
But instead, you're cheering for yet another minor update to an "alpha" that really does not deserve the term "alpha" (as a reminder: Traditionally, an alpha is supposed to be mostly feature-complete!).

I'm gonna say this again and again, and I dare you to disprove it: We could have had a version of Squadron 42 several years ago, if that had been the focus of development at any point. We could have had a version of the persistant universe several years ago, assuming that that had the exclusive focus. But we have neither, because CIG's management is fundamentally incompetent and has no real oversight from the people financing things (and thus no real pressure to ever actually release anything).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 21, 2018, 04:16:15 am
8 years development time for a very complex game, while also establishing a new studio and under significantly changing scope and funding. 2020 is kinda disappointing not unreasonable.

Just as a reminder: Back in 2015 people got banned on the old RSI forums for suggesting that at the current pace of development the game might be delayed into 2018.
 The reason for the ban was "spreading FUD"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 04:21:54 am
I'm gonna say this again and again, and I dare you to disprove it: We could have had a version of Squadron 42 several years ago, if that had been the focus of development at any point. We could have had a version of the persistant universe several years ago, assuming that that had the exclusive focus.

We could, but would that really be better? I doubt it. A more complex but delayed game >> simplistic game released on time. Why would you polish and release something you dont consider complete? Just to tick a "release date met" box? It is the end result that counts, not the box.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 04:44:37 am
Because one is a guaranteed product meeting the original terms of money being effectively begged for at the start, not to mention the convolution which comes from continuous goalpost moves.


What would you do think your bank would do if you changed the terms of a loan after you pissed your business loan money up the wall?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 04:54:31 am
We could, but would that really be better? I doubt it. A more complex but delayed game >> simplistic game released on time. Why would you polish and release something you dont consider complete? Just to tick a "release date met" box? It is the end result that counts, not the box.

I like playing games I paid money for, yes.

Secondly, you say that Star Citizen is or will be more complex. Name a single in-game mechanic that is more complex than anything Frontier have done in Elite so far.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 04:56:10 am
What would you do think your bank would do if you changed the terms of a loan after you pissed your business loan money up the wall?

If my company is worth $500 million? They would offer me a bigger loan.

You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

But it is this end result that counts, nothing else.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 05:01:39 am
Your company holds 500 million of the banks money.   They don't lend on outstanding debts. 

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 21, 2018, 05:43:16 am
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 21, 2018, 05:48:21 am
how many years ago was it that they did all the mocap?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 05:49:13 am
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.

I mean, GTA V exists and has (by some estimates) cost around 260 million USD....
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 21, 2018, 06:08:43 am
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.

I mean, GTA V exists and has (by some estimates) cost around 260 million USD....

Forgot to say I was referring to SC, as there are few (if any) games with that budget that spark my interest.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2018, 07:17:48 am
https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/20/star-citizen-interview-why-chris-roberts-raised-another-46-million-to-finish-sci-fi-universe/3/

Apparently just raising 211 million through whales just wasn't quite enough to actually make and finish a game.

You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million. Developing a $20 million game when you can do a $200 million one would be utter stupidity, and you know it. "Changing scope is bad" may be a good heuristic but it completely fails for projects such as Star Citizen.
Star Citizen fails as a project.

You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

But it is this end result that counts, nothing else.
This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Good lord man, lay off the kool-aid. Literally the only reason you come to HLP for is to defend Starcitizen, you're a cultist through and through.

I don't know what you do for a living
Shilling.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2018, 09:28:28 am
You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million.

You absolutely can. You make the $20 million game, release it, see how well received it is and then use the rest of the money to make Star Citizen II for everyone who contributed to either project. You also gain lots of good press when the first one comes out instead of persuading the game buying public that this is a cult/scam/train wreck.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 09:57:15 am
This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Goon math at its finest. The hangar module, the first thing backers had the opportunity to play and Goons had the opportunity make snarky videos of, was released in August of 2013.

I know everyone here is skeptical of CIG's release timelines, as am I. So, let's say that something called Squadron 42 releases in 2021 for the sake of arguments. This means that all your snarky little gifs were of bugs in a game 3-4 years before its release. Does pointing out that a crowdfunded pre-alpha has bugs make you feel special? Do you think that every AAA release was devoid of memetastic bugs 4 years before release?

If CIG put out a $20m game after raising $200m in microtransaction-pledges, you people would still be screaming bloody murder accusing him of putting $180m up his nose. If CIG had refused to release anything to backers until Alpha, so that there weren't memetastic bugs for you people to farm, then you and the backers and your Pope (Derek Smart) would be claiming that every preview was faked and that the money was all going straight up CR's nose.

I don't agree with all the decisions that CIG has made, and I'm not at all convinced that the final product will be a fun game even if CIG delivers something functional. I was raising a stink in another venue all the way back when CIG started doing their first post-campaign concept ship sales. But, this level of hysteria is completely disproportionate for the actual missteps being made. If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 10:12:35 am
I know everyone here is skeptical of CIG's release timelines, as am I. So, let's say that something called Squadron 42 releases in 2021 for the sake of arguments. This means that all your snarky little gifs were of bugs in a game 3-4 years before its release. Does pointing out that a crowdfunded pre-alpha has bugs make you feel special? Do you think that every AAA release was devoid of memetastic bugs 4 years before release?

Since most AAA releases take considerably less time to develop, yes. Many AAA games were absolutely devoid of bugs of any nature 3 to 4 years before release.

Quote
If CIG put out a $20m game after raising $200m in microtransaction-pledges, you people would still be screaming bloody murder accusing him of putting $180m up his nose. If CIG had refused to release anything to backers until Alpha, so that there weren't memetastic bugs for you people to farm, then you and the backers and your Pope (Derek Smart) would be claiming that every preview was faked and that the money was all going straight up CR's nose.

No, see, that's where a developer does something called "communication". If CIG had released anything resembling a finished game (or, more importantly, a finishable game that one could play for some time and have a meaningful experience in) 3 or 4 years ago, we would have a very different discussion.

For example, if that had been the case, we could definitely argue which game was best: Elite? Star Citizen? House of the Dying Sun? COD: Infinite Warfare? Rebel Galaxy Outlaws?
But, alas, that's not the reality we live in, so no matter how you rank these games against each other, Star Citizen will come last by default on account of not being anywhere near release.

Quote
I don't agree with all the decisions that CIG has made, and I'm not at all convinced that the final product will be a fun game even if CIG delivers something functional. I was raising a stink in another venue all the way back when CIG started doing their first post-campaign concept ship sales. But, this level of hysteria is completely disproportionate for the actual missteps being made. If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

There's no whole forum of people following CIG around either.

Quote
CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.

That's because Microsoft is a company that expects returns on investments and doesn't care who they have to fire in order to get it. Unlike, for example, Star Citizen backers.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2018, 10:22:53 am
Squadron 42 depends on LOTS of Persistent Universe technology and that is what makes it so complex. In many ways it will be more like Skyrim or RDR rather than an ordinary linear campaign.

"Squadron 42 is taking a long time because CIG decided to give it a bunch of open-world MMO features that a mission-based single player game doesn't need."

Yeah, that really makes CIG look competent.


CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.
Freelancer managed to be an ok game because Microsoft bought Digital Anvil and got rid of Chris Roberts after he ran Digital Anvil into the ground trying to make the 'perfect space sim'.

This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Yeah but if CIG never release a game, then people like maslo never have to deal with the fact that the released game is ****, and can just keep moving to goalposts to ensure they never have to come to terms with the fact that the game's never coming out.

Maslo's said time and again that he'd start holding CIG accountable on X date, and when X date comes and goes, he figures out a new way to justify his faith in CIG.  This could persist for another 8 years if CIG want.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 21, 2018, 12:04:44 pm
You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

Sounds like you're saying we're already vindicated, and you just don't realize it yet.

The Duke Nukem Forever comparison always feels apt for Star Citizen.  It was a project led by an incompetent auteur who couldn't stop himself penciling more stuff into the design document.  DNF didn't get released until he was kicked off the team, and when it was released, every aspect of it showed its age, from the tech to the writing to the design and mechanics.  If Star Citizen ever has a 1.0 release, I expect that the collective response will at best be a, "Meh," because by the time it happens, half a dozen other games will have done everything (reasonable) that SC seeks to do and will have done it better.

CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.

Hey, speaking of kicking an auteur off of a project in order to get that project's scope locked down, Freelancer!  Microsoft bought Digital Anvil and reduced Roberts to a consultant on Freelancer's development, so that they could release a game instead of more press releases explaining delay after delay.

It's almost like CR has been incapable of finishing and releasing a game since the 1990's.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 12:12:02 pm
Call of Duty already made a really good Squadron 42 and shipped it (several years ago). Game was good, I recommend.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 12:36:50 pm
If it was so good, why aren't you modding it instead of FS2?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 12:45:47 pm
If Star Citizen is so good, where are all its mods?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 21, 2018, 12:49:37 pm
If Star Citizen is so good, where are all its mods?

The devs are only waiting that somebody here at HLP does a TC from their stuff so they can provide a link and say "DL here, there's your game".

If it was so good, why aren't you modding it instead of FS2?

Don't give Battuta bad ideas.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 12:54:17 pm
All battutamods have been very good so far.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 21, 2018, 01:13:26 pm
All battutamods have been very good so far.

Well that's why people here prefer them on a certain game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2018, 01:25:45 pm
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-argh.gif) Goooons!
(https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/0/b/wtchris.001.png) Derek smaaaart! (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-argh.gif)
How much are you in for, commando?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2018, 01:35:52 pm
Oh and since MikeRoz seems to hate funny gifs and videos about starcitizen:

Edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CZrmCtqdk&feature=youtu.be&t=1064
Good to hear SQ42 was all set and ready back in 2016.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2018, 02:55:29 pm
You absolutely can. You make the $20 million game, release it, see how well received it is and then use the rest of the money to make Star Citizen II for everyone who contributed to either project. You also gain lots of good press when the first one comes out instead of persuading the game buying public that this is a cult/scam/train wreck.

Is that as efficient as just making a $200 million game in the first place? I dont think so. Just a weird roundabout way of arriving in the same destination.

There is no reason to take those who think SC is a scam seriously because they are an irrelevant small minority that will disappear completely once the game is out and remotely good. They are not a factor.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2018, 02:59:43 pm
Don't be daft.  We'll all be long dead.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2018, 03:05:06 pm
Quote
once the game is out and remotely good

But... but I thought Starcitizen was already good!?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 21, 2018, 03:05:59 pm
Is that as efficient as just making a $200 million game in the first place? I dont think so. Just a weird roundabout way of arriving in the same destination.

It's how you build a game that is sustainable over the long term. It's how you build a project (and a company) that can tackle a 200+ million dollar project.

Tell us, maslo, how much ~engaging and deep gameplay~ does SC's jpg store offer?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 21, 2018, 03:15:51 pm
Quote
once the game is out and remotely good

But... but I thought Starcitizen was already good!?

Its greatness can barely be comprehended, and so it must be toned down to merely good, prior to release.  Hence all the delays.  Of course.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 21, 2018, 03:17:57 pm
Wait is someone seriously making an argument that a bird in the hand is worse than two in the bush...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 21, 2018, 03:25:40 pm
There is no reason to take those who think SC is a scam seriously because they are an irrelevant small minority that will disappear completely once the game is out and remotely good. They are not a factor.
Thank you, I needed a good hearty laugh today.

Seriously though, look at the S42 roadmap Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/a80j7a/squadron_42_roadmap/).  Some "small minority."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 04:56:40 pm
There is no reason to take those who think SC is a scam seriously because they are an irrelevant small minority that will disappear completely once the game is out and remotely good. They are not a factor.
Thank you, I needed a good hearty laugh today.

Seriously though, look at the S42 roadmap Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/a80j7a/squadron_42_roadmap/).  Some "small minority."
(https://i.imgur.com/p1PNquT.jpg)
 :rolleyes:
If Star Citizen is so good, where are all its mods?
Where did I say it was good? Where did I say it is good? Where did I say it will be good?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 05:58:18 pm
If it was so good, why aren't you modding it instead of FS2?

You're not very bright, are you.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 06:24:55 pm
Well I certainly don't have an IQ of more than 23,301. Why don't you explain how I've goofed this time very slowly with very small words so that I can understand?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2018, 06:49:58 pm
A game being good and a game being heavily moddable are not necessarily related.

You'd think this was obvious, but I guess not.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on December 21, 2018, 06:56:28 pm
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2018, 07:19:49 pm
Remember how they said modding starcitizen would totally be a thing? Which turned out to be yet another lie unfulfilled promise?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 08:08:11 pm
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on December 21, 2018, 08:29:47 pm
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.

Squadron 42 was pitched as a game of strictly limited scope, and the Kickstarter was formatted with that explicit promise.  Moddability was not, incidentally, a part of that explicit promise, it is yet another unnecessary feature in a buggy alpha infamous for unnecessary features.  If you've been reading the past three pages, the assertion here is that if Chris Roberts had bothered following the initial format and kept the game of strictly limited scope, we might be playing Squadron 42 and describing it as a good game. 

We are not, because Squadron 42 doesn't exist, is unlikely to ever exist as a playable game, and is less likely to exist as a good game.

Before continuing down this line of discussion, you should probably go back and take a look at what Squadron 42 was supposed to be!  Based on your post, what you think it was supposed to be bears little resemblance to the initial premise.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on December 21, 2018, 08:38:27 pm
'kay now let's not get testy with each other.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 09:00:50 pm
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.

Squadron 42 was pitched as a game of strictly limited scope, and the Kickstarter was formatted with that explicit promise.  Moddability was not, incidentally, a part of that explicit promise, it is yet another unnecessary feature in a buggy alpha infamous for unnecessary features.  If you've been reading the past three pages, the assertion here is that if Chris Roberts had bothered following the initial format and kept the game of strictly limited scope, we might be playing Squadron 42 and describing it as a good game. 

We are not, because Squadron 42 doesn't exist, is unlikely to ever exist as a playable game, and is less likely to exist as a good game.

Before continuing down this line of discussion, you should probably go back and take a look at what Squadron 42 was supposed to be!  Based on your post, what you think it was supposed to be bears little resemblance to the initial premise.
Do you think I didn't double-check that before I made my post? I may be a bit of a dullard in comparison with our esteemed Batutta, but I did do my homework.

(https://i.imgur.com/tYrmMuN.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/VRv0JIm.png)

I admit that it's possible that, in the alternate world where SC was made exactly as described in this pitch and without a single additional feature, that there'd be something blocking the mod tools from working on the single player portion and restricting it to just the multiplayer portion - but this seems unlikely to me. Certainly not a barrier the community would have trouble surmounting if it did exist, given what they've already accomplished with things like machinima.

I'm also amused that we've now had a couple members claim that mod tools constitute a superfluous feature. This community would not exist had :v: felt the same way. Or, if they are unimportant - why is this community not moving on to CoD:IW, again?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 09:04:02 pm
“I want to go on the internet and be aggressively disingenuous rather than just stating my opinion” is certainly a choice
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 09:05:26 pm
Like I don’t know how many words and how much passive-aggressive smarm you just expended to say “Does Infinite Warfare have mod support?”
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 09:16:34 pm
Like I don’t know how many words and how much passive-aggressive smarm you just expended to say “Does Infinite Warfare have mod support?”
I must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2? Even if SC's mod support is the one bullet point missing from CoD:IW's feature set (which must otherwise be a superset of SQ42's), surely the effort involved in making mod tools would be worth it to move to a modern space sim platform that brings all those features with it?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 21, 2018, 09:19:28 pm
:rolleyes:
Searching for one whole word oh boy you sure showed me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 09:21:55 pm
i must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

Why are you trying to be unpleasant to talk to? I’d happily discuss this but this doesn’t read like an attempt at good faith conversation.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 21, 2018, 09:26:13 pm
Seriously Mike, either quit the ridiculous passive-aggressiveness or don't bother continuing to post in this topic.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 09:29:44 pm
There is no reason to take those who think SC is a scam seriously because they are an irrelevant small minority that will disappear completely once the game is out and remotely good. They are not a factor.
Thank you, I needed a good hearty laugh today.

Seriously though, look at the S42 roadmap Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/a80j7a/squadron_42_roadmap/).  Some "small minority."

:rolleyes:
Searching for one whole word oh boy you sure showed me.
You implied I'd find a majority of people in that thread discussing how SC is a scam. The word scam doesn't appear once in the thread, at least at the default comment display depth. I saw some people reacting with skepticism on their ability to deliver the promised feature set or meet promised deadlines, but nobody discussing whether the entire project was a scam. Would you be so kind as to point these comments out? Or are you implying that you believe or that you believe Maslo believes that missing a deadline or allowing a feature to slip off the list means that "SC is a scam"?

If it was so good, why aren't you modding it instead of FS2?

You're not very bright, are you.


i must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

Why are you trying to be unpleasant to talk to? I’d happily discuss this but this doesn’t read like an attempt at good faith conversation.
I'm merely reminding the you and the audience that you're smarter than me so that you don't ever feel the need to remind me again yourself.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2018, 09:30:45 pm
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scotty on December 21, 2018, 09:38:40 pm
Mike you seem to be confusing "post-release longevity" with "quality".  I still fire up and play Infinite Warfare from time to time; the fact that there aren't mods hasn't changed the quality of the game itself.

Which is why this:
If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2?

Gets you responses like this:
You're not very bright, are you.

It's like saying "if diamonds are so valuable, why aren't we using those as currency instead of coins?", being smug about it, and then getting mad when people say that's dumb.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2018, 09:50:10 pm
He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

Drop-in/drop-out coop was also one of the promised features of SQ42.  It was also far more talked about than modding was.  You know, before it got unceremoniously canned.  CIG have been blatantly lying about SC and SQ42 for years.


Quote
In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.
Right, because "this game is good, play it" totally means "this is one of the best games ever".
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 09:52:06 pm
Yeah, I don't see the point in asking why I'm not modding some other game, or all the dings on Blue Planet. I know how to mod FreeSpace, and it has twenty years of open-source developer tools. Plus it's a universe I really care about and a story I want to continue.

CoD IW is a AAA packaged product I really enjoyed, with full "space legs" and seamless transitions between spaceflight, ground battle, and your home ship while playing through a linear, mission-based campaign with excellent gameplay and a solid story (Kit Harrington aside). It doesn't have any mod tools, but on the other hand, it came out two years ago and you can play it right now.

If that doesn't interest you, cool! But it does everything I would've wanted from a notional Squadron 42. It is also in a lot of ways better-designed than BP (because it benefits from a huge budget and really tight, intuitive controls).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 09:53:41 pm
And of course the snappy quip comeback is, if Squadron 42's so good, why aren't you playing it?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 10:03:17 pm
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
That's a good point. Allow me to clarify what I meant by attempting to defund them.

I find the efforts of certain people to get backers to request refunds for pledges from 5-6 years ago incredibly distasteful. I think this is bad from a moral standpoint, as your pledge is neither a purchase nor an investment, but more like a donation. If there was evidence of malfeasance, like that guy who used a Kickstarter for a board game to cover his moving expenses, then that's a case where a refund is entirely appropriate. But it seems like, in SC's case, the majority of funds are going to internal and external developers to make a game. Some projects fail, despite the best efforts of everyone involved, and most people accept this.

I also find it bad from a practical standpoint, because the money from Kickstarter pledges from 2012 has long since been spent, and by requesting a refund now you would essentially be diverting funds from new pledges - likely whales - into your own pocket. In a perfect world, they're not donating to cover your refund, they're donating because they want the game made.

To speak to your analogy, this would be like someone going into a GA meeting, declaring that casinos are a scam, handing out pitchforks, and marching them to casinos to demand their already-gambled money back. The casinos are rightly going to laugh them out the door.

However, if you're instead talking about discouraging further funding until they have a game released, I can't say I disagree with that at all, and I've been personally practicing that myself for years. I do think that the project would have been better off without the constant stream of funds derived from a continuous stream of ship concepts being developed for sale.

Mike you seem to be confusing "post-release longevity" with "quality".  I still fire up and play Infinite Warfare from time to time; the fact that there aren't mods hasn't changed the quality of the game itself.

Which is why this:
If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2?

Gets you responses like this:
You're not very bright, are you.

It's like saying "if diamonds are so valuable, why aren't we using those as currency instead of coins?", being smug about it, and then getting mad when people say that's dumb.
I'm not hung up on whether CoD:IW supports mods or not. I even gave away having to develop mod tools ourselves as a freebie. I'm asking why we wouldn't be willing to shoulder our burden ourselves, if CoD:IW really is the modern FS2 or Wing Commander. That's what SQ42 was pitched as. If CoD:IW really delivers on that promise, why isn't modding CoD:IW a road any of us have ever considered travelling?

Yeah, I don't see the point in asking why I'm not modding some other game, or all the dings on Blue Planet. I know how to mod FreeSpace, and it has twenty years of open-source developer tools. Plus it's a universe I really care about and a story I want to continue.

CoD IW is a AAA packaged product I really enjoyed, with full "space legs" and seamless transitions between spaceflight, ground battle, and your home ship while playing through a linear, mission-based campaign with excellent gameplay and a solid story (Kit Harrington aside). It doesn't have any mod tools, but on the other hand, it came out two years ago and you can play it right now.

If that doesn't interest you, cool! But it does everything I would've wanted from a notional Squadron 42. It is also in a lot of ways better-designed than BP (because it benefits from a huge budget and really tight, intuitive controls).
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

And of course the snappy quip comeback is, if Squadron 42's so good, why aren't you playing it?
Please, please, please point out where I've said SQ42 is good.

You are the one who asserted that CoD:IW has delivered on everything SQ42 promised. That's the assertion I'm challenging. I have not asserted anywhere (at least in the past year or two) that SC/SQ42 is/will be fun to play in either its current or eventual final form. People on this board seem to assume that there are only two positions one can have on SC: blind believer forking over $1000s annually, or incredibly toxic meme-slinger and catchphrase-repeater. If you're assuming that I'm one of the former because I'm not one of the latter, that's on you, not me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2018, 10:28:26 pm
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

It's got better turret/subsystem interaction than core FS2, and the ability to swap between 'plane' and 'VTOL' flight modes gets rid of the worst part of FS2's fighter/capship dynamic - the long, boring resets where you get distance to make your next run. And capships defend themselves much more actively than in (say) FS1. The fighter-on-fighter dynamic is pretty weak, the missions are fairly narrow in scope, and it's short on challenge and content, but as a AAA for-the-masses space shooter goes it's really good.

I don't care about weird nuances of who believes what about which product, I just wanna say IW is a good-ass game and you can play it right now if you're looking for an expensive, cinematic, space-legs story.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2018, 10:43:10 pm
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
That's a good point. Allow me to clarify what I meant by attempting to defund them.

I find the efforts of certain people to get backers to request refunds for pledges from 5-6 years ago incredibly distasteful. I think this is bad from a moral standpoint, as your pledge is neither a purchase nor an investment, but more like a donation.

Let me stop you right there. This is a lie. I can totally see why CIG would like to spin that lie that way but donations to the Kickstarter were the exchange of money for goods.

Quote
Pledge US$ 30 or more

A digital copy of the finished game for your PC

Estimated delivery Nov 2014

This is a feature of every donation above $30 and therefore means that anyone who donated above $30 is entitled to their money back as CIG has not delivered the goods they were paid for four years after the delivery date they set on the kickstarter. People can claim the scope of the project changed all they like but this was not the deal that people made when they paid money.

Quote
But it seems like, in SC's case, the majority of funds are going to internal and external developers to make a game. Some projects fail, despite the best efforts of everyone involved, and most people accept this.

CIG have never attempted to make the game they promised. Almost immediately after the kickstarter CIG started making a different game, completely different in scope from what was pitched. Therefore it's not a valid argument that some projects fail. This is not a case of CIG attempting to make the game they pitched and failing, they were making a completely different game. So sorry, but it's perfectly acceptable for people who kickstarted the project to ask for their money back. If there is a moral failure here, it is on the part of CIG. They pitched one game and then started making a different one with the money.

Quote
I also find it bad from a practical standpoint, because the money from Kickstarter pledges from 2012 has long since been spent, and by requesting a refund now you would essentially be diverting funds from new pledges - likely whales - into your own pocket. In a perfect world, they're not donating to cover your refund, they're donating because they want the game made.

I can use that same logic to deny every single refund for every single product. And I'm sorry but it's morally bankrupt. If you ask someone for money in return for goods or services, you must provide those goods or services. If you can't, you must return the money. You can't simply say "but it means that other people have to pay you back!"

Quote
To speak to your analogy, this would be like someone going into a GA meeting, declaring that casinos are a scam, handing out pitchforks, and marching them to casinos to demand their already-gambled money back. The casinos are rightly going to laugh them out the door.

No it isn't. Those people spent money and received a service in return. They had a chance to win. Now suppose instead that the casino had rigged those machines to pay out much less than they said they did. Wouldn't the gamblers be entitled to some money back? Hell, let's take malfeasance out of the equation. Suppose those machines had a design flaw which meant they paid out less, wouldn't the people who gambled on them be entitled to some or all of their money back?

CIG took money claiming that they'd have a product released four years ago. Whether that wasn't true because of poor management or deliberate deception is irrelevant. They have failed to deliver the product they promised four years ago. It is completely anti-consumer to claim that they should be allowed to get away with it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2018, 11:11:10 pm
You are the one who asserted that CoD:IW has delivered on everything SQ42 promised. That's the assertion I'm challenging. I have not asserted anywhere (at least in the past year or two) that SC/SQ42 is/will be fun to play in either its current or eventual final form.
Even if it gets released, SQ42 isn't going to deliver on everything SQ42 promised.  This isn't just me having no faith in CIG.  Features have already, officially been cut from what the Kickstarter promised.  The most prominent is how drop-in/drop-out coop got completely canned years ago.  Private servers (which means mods) have been moved to an after release thing, which probably means never, given CIG's track record making the base game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2018, 11:32:27 pm
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
That's a good point. Allow me to clarify what I meant by attempting to defund them.

I find the efforts of certain people to get backers to request refunds for pledges from 5-6 years ago incredibly distasteful. I think this is bad from a moral standpoint, as your pledge is neither a purchase nor an investment, but more like a donation.

Let me stop you right there. This is a lie. I can totally see why CIG would like to spin that lie that way but donations to the Kickstarter were the exchange of money for goods.

Quote
Pledge US$ 30 or more

A digital copy of the finished game for your PC

Estimated delivery Nov 2014

This is a feature of every donation above $30 and therefore means that anyone who donated above $30 is entitled to their money back as CIG has not delivered the goods they were paid for four years after the delivery date they set on the kickstarter. People can claim the scope of the project changed all they like but this was not the deal that people made when they paid money.

Actually, they're not. Kickstarter is not a store, and backers are not consumers.

Here are the Terms of Service that were in place on Kickstarter when the project was launched and funded:

Quote
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
  • they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
  • they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
  • they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
  • they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
  • they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

In the best case monetary scenario for a backer, they get a proportion of their funds back. If the funds are all gone, then a proportion of zero is zero.

But it seems like, in SC's case, the majority of funds are going to internal and external developers to make a game. Some projects fail, despite the best efforts of everyone involved, and most people accept this.

CIG have never attempted to make the game they promised. Almost immediately after the kickstarter CIG started making a different game, completely different in scope from what was pitched. Therefore it's not a valid argument that some projects fail. This is not a case of CIG attempting to make the game they pitched and failing, they were making a completely different game. So sorry, but it's perfectly acceptable for people who kickstarted the project to ask for their money back. If there is a moral failure here, it is on the part of CIG. They pitched one game and then started making a different one with the money.

This might have a bit more merit, but I still think that, even if you trigger that project-not-delivered procedure from Kickstarter's ToS above, they would be able to point out that the funds are being used to complete the project in an alternate form.

I also find it bad from a practical standpoint, because the money from Kickstarter pledges from 2012 has long since been spent, and by requesting a refund now you would essentially be diverting funds from new pledges - likely whales - into your own pocket. In a perfect world, they're not donating to cover your refund, they're donating because they want the game made.

I can use that same logic to deny every single refund for every single product. And I'm sorry but it's morally bankrupt. If you ask someone for money in return for goods or services, you must provide those goods or services. If you can't, you must return the money. You can't simply say "but it means that other people have to pay you back!"

Again, Kickstarter is not a store, and pledges are not pre-orders. If you're unwilling to take on the financial risk of backing a project and getting nothing out of it, then restrict yourself to pre-orders from actual stores that have actual return policies.

Even if the store does hold your money, they're not going to turn it over to the publisher or distributor of your product until they have it in hand. And if they did, they'd have every legal right to go after the publisher to recoup the cost of refunding you your money.

To speak to your analogy, this would be like someone going into a GA meeting, declaring that casinos are a scam, handing out pitchforks, and marching them to casinos to demand their already-gambled money back. The casinos are rightly going to laugh them out the door.

No it isn't. Those people spent money and received a service in return. They had a chance to win. Now suppose instead that the casino had rigged those machines to pay out much less than they said they did. Wouldn't the gamblers be entitled to some money back? Hell, let's take malfeasance out of the equation. Suppose those machines had a design flaw which meant they paid out less, wouldn't the people who gambled on them be entitled to some or all of their money back?

CIG took money claiming that they'd have a product released four years ago. Whether that wasn't true because of poor management or deliberate deception is irrelevant. They have failed to deliver the product they promised four years ago. It is completely anti-consumer to claim that they should be allowed to get away with it.

The service they paid for was a chance that the campaign creator's project might be realized. If risk wasn't involved, there'd be no need for Kickstarter to be involved.

You are the one who asserted that CoD:IW has delivered on everything SQ42 promised. That's the assertion I'm challenging. I have not asserted anywhere (at least in the past year or two) that SC/SQ42 is/will be fun to play in either its current or eventual final form.
Even if it gets released, SQ42 isn't going to deliver on everything SQ42 promised.  This isn't just me having no faith in CIG.  Features have already, officially been cut from what the Kickstarter promised.  The most prominent is how drop-in/drop-out coop got completely canned years ago.  Private servers (which means mods) have been moved to an after release thing, which probably means never, given CIG's attempts to make the base game.

Okay.

I'm not judging CoD:IW against the actual SQ42. I'm judging CoD:IW against the promised SQ42, since that's what it's being compared to, and that's the comparison I take issue with. It feels a lot less like a modern Wing Commander or FS2 - which is the SQ42 pitch - and more like that one UT2K4 level where you fly the space fighters. Battuta picked up on a few features that IW might have done better than FS2, and I'll defer to an experienced designer's eye on those, but as a whole I found the space combat incredibly underwhelming.

You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

It's got better turret/subsystem interaction than core FS2, and the ability to swap between 'plane' and 'VTOL' flight modes gets rid of the worst part of FS2's fighter/capship dynamic - the long, boring resets where you get distance to make your next run. And capships defend themselves much more actively than in (say) FS1. The fighter-on-fighter dynamic is pretty weak, the missions are fairly narrow in scope, and it's short on challenge and content, but as a AAA for-the-masses space shooter goes it's really good.

I don't care about weird nuances of who believes what about which product, I just wanna say IW is a good-ass game and you can play it right now if you're looking for an expensive, cinematic, space-legs story.

Okay. I'll concede that your earlier comparison probably wasn't intentionally mocking and disingenuous.

I still don't think CoD:IW fits the comparison you made. It may do what it set out to do quite well, but the second you start trying to hold it up against a spiritual successor to WC or FS2, even an unmade one, I'll take issue. I'd want something with much deeper space combat to fill those shoes. I guess that's a matter of personal preference.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on December 22, 2018, 12:11:57 am
Terms of use/service are null and void when they contradict the law, and the last few years have certainly seen some promising development in cases where current consumer protection laws are being applied to digital goods and storefronts.

Crowdfunding pledges are certainly not donations. You can call them that, but the spirit of the pledge is wholly transparent. A prostitute can call themselves an "Instagram model" and go on an overseas vacation and cruise with a client instead of simply accepting cash for sex, but the prostitute is still a prostitute and the client is still a client.

I've also heard pledges called investments, which is equally, if not more, insane. Actual investors have legal protections and recourse. If CiG were to fold, the backers wouldn't get a cent from the fire sale of CiG's assets. If CiG actually manages to make the game, the backers don't get a share of the profits, either. All of the nonsense about being something "more" than simply a consumer that wants a product is exactly that: nonsense. And quite frankly, some of the **** that I've heard the Citizens spew about being a part of something revolutionary is so cult-like that it creeps me straight the **** out.

Crowdfunding and lootboxes are attracting the attention of regulatory bodies. The industry needs to dial back the blatant greed or they're going to get Icarus'd.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on December 22, 2018, 12:29:33 am
Terms of use/service are null and void when they contradict the law, and the last few years have certainly seen some promising development in cases where current consumer protection laws are being applied to digital goods and storefronts.

Crowdfunding pledges are certainly not donations. You can call them that, but the spirit of the pledge is wholly transparent. A prostitute can call themselves an "Instagram model" and go on an overseas vacation and cruise with a client instead of simply accepting cash for sex, but the prostitute is still a prostitute and the client is still a client.

I'm not a lawyer. It's certainly possible that AGs or legislatures might apply consumer protections to crowdfunding sites so that they or project creators are treated like stores. I'd feel we'd have lost something, then. We already have stores. I think that crowdfunding - even if it's incredibly risky, even if it comes with none of the protections of investment or a traditional store transaction - can fill a niche in the market, and help get products made we might not otherwise see. It's possible the good from these products is vastly outweighed by the greed and scammers that would give this funding model a bad name.

I've also heard pledges called investments, which is equally, if not more, insane. Actual investors have legal protections and recourse. If CiG were to fold, the backers wouldn't get a cent from the fire sale of CiG's assets. If CiG actually manages to make the game, the backers don't get a share of the profits, either. All of the nonsense about being something "more" than simply a consumer that wants a product is exactly that: nonsense. And quite frankly, some of the **** that I've heard the Citizens spew about being a part of something revolutionary is so cult-like that it creeps me straight the **** out.

Crowdfunding and lootboxes are attracting the attention of regulatory bodies. The industry needs to dial back the blatant greed or they're going to get Icarus'd.

Mostly in agreement about all of this.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2018, 02:42:06 am
If I sponsor or pledge someone 20 quid to run a marathon.   Then they stop halfway and get a bus to go shopping and buy a scooter because it's better than running, I want my money back.


Edited for context
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2018, 02:45:26 am
Seriously though, look at the S42 roadmap Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/a80j7a/squadron_42_roadmap/).  Some "small minority."

That thread proves my point. There are reasonable complaints about development taking too long here and there, but that is about it. People who think SC is a scam or a trainwreck are a small irrelevant minority. They are not a factor in CIG decisions, or in general.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Asteroth on December 22, 2018, 04:06:36 am
That thread proves my point. There are reasonable complaints about development taking too long here and there, but that is about it. People who think SC is a scam or a trainwreck are a small irrelevant minority. They are not a factor in CIG decisions, or in general.
Well, that certainly begs the obvious question then: Why is it clearly the majority opinion here, on this forum? Are we all just bitter and jealous of a possibly superior competitor to Freespace?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on December 22, 2018, 05:25:27 am
I'd feel we'd have lost something, then. We already have stores. I think that crowdfunding - even if it's incredibly risky, even if it comes with none of the protections of investment or a traditional store transaction - can fill a niche in the market, and help get products made we might not otherwise see. It's possible the good from these products is vastly outweighed by the greed and scammers that would give this funding model a bad name.

I don't have a problem with companies doing donations via kickstarter. But don't promise people the game and don't promise people increased rewards depending on how much they spend. That's not donations.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2018, 07:09:03 am
Do the incredibly distasteful and bad from a moral standpoint thing and
(https://i.imgur.com/xPDHDO9.gif)

Imagine defending a company that has a years long track record of constant blatant deliberate lies and using incredibly scummy business practices. Imagine doing that, and then claiming the moral highground.
Comedy. Gold.

But honestly quite sad, really.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2018, 07:18:03 am
That thread proves my point. There are reasonable complaints about development taking too long here and there, but that is about it. People who think SC is a scam or a trainwreck are a small irrelevant minority. They are not a factor in CIG decisions, or in general.
Well, that certainly begs the obvious question then: Why is it clearly the majority opinion here, on this forum? Are we all just bitter and jealous of a possibly superior competitor to Freespace?
Because maslo thinks the totally not biased and heavily moderated starcitizen reddit of all places is a good benchmark on what people think of starcitizen. The place where the heavily invested sunk cost people gather.

Have you ever like, read the comments sections of other websites about star citizen?
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-01-09-star-citizen-alpha-3-impressions

https://www.polygon.com/2018/5/30/17411226/star-citizen-legatus-pack-bundle

They can't all be goons or HLP members.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 22, 2018, 07:52:38 am
Quote
I still don't think CoD:IW fits the comparison you made. It may do what it set out to do quite well, but the second you start trying to hold it up against a spiritual successor to WC or FS2, even an unmade one, I'll take issue. I'd want something with much deeper space combat to fill those shoes. I guess that's a matter of personal preference.

Wing Commander never had any particularely deep combat though, certainly not on the standards of X-Wing or FreeSpace. I've pretty much played them all*, and they never deviate from the "Here's a patrol between a few waypoints, shoot everything at those waypoints" formula. Most of the effort and the wonder is in the FMV cutscenes and the pure spectacle. Wing Commander very much is the CoD of its time.

* Except that expansion to Prophecy, Secret Operations
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2018, 07:57:20 am
Prophecy was a bag of arse.


Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 22, 2018, 08:01:08 am
I kinda liked it for atleast mixing up the gameplay a little bit. Which reminds me, I kinda wanna try Standoff.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2018, 08:05:35 am
It felt less diverse than WC3.   
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 22, 2018, 08:18:08 am
I didn't feel like that. Prophecy at last didn't have the "Two pilots against the galaxy" thing that was a staple of the series since its inception.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2018, 08:34:12 am
Yeah it was casey, stiletto and the "joker" of the group, and one carrier against the entire nephilim fleet.  Biggest no no for me was no fmv blanching.   
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on December 22, 2018, 08:38:11 am
Have to say, that Prophecy was the most diverse game in the series.

Yes, i think the characters from the previous games were much better elaborated than in Prophecy and Secret Ops. But in terms of missions, Prophecy was much more varied than the other games in my opinion. Secret Ops also has some new more mission ideas, but that did not work very well there, because Origin did a huge mistake... they took too much enemies into every mission.

And what Prophecy did also better, all bigger battles have countless allied pilots with an individual name you can find on the killboard and all of them had own exclusive voice acting and so some kind of personality.
In Secret Ops it was the "only the player and his wingmen" idea from previous games unforunately :(

And what i dislike was the "how to destroy a capship" in Prophecy with the invurnerable ships except if you are able to destroy the Bridge and Engine. I think Wing Commander 1 & 3 were much better in this area.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 22, 2018, 09:08:08 am
Would've been quicker with SC £125.000 one shot tactical nuke.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on December 22, 2018, 10:32:35 am
What's all this chatter about released games?  This is the vaporware Star Citizen thread!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2018, 11:37:00 am
Have you ever like, read the comments sections of other websites about star citizen?
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-01-09-star-citizen-alpha-3-impressions

https://www.polygon.com/2018/5/30/17411226/star-citizen-legatus-pack-bundle

They can't all be goons or HLP members.

Most of those strongly negative comments on articles about Star Citizen are indeed by goons or other trolls obsessed with trashing the game wherever it is mentioned. Opposite is also true, if you see a very positive comment, it is likely by a "SC cultist" coming from SC subreddit or Spectrum. People who choose to comment on the internet about SC are the 1%, doubly so if they hold a strong opinion about it.

98% of backers, and 99% of general gaming public, does not care to comment and/or are mostly neutral. And the only way this could possibly change is if the project actually fails spectacularly. That could indeed be big news. Other than that, nobody gives a **** about years of delay or changing/expanding scope. Business as usual in game development. End result is what will count, the rest will disappear like last year snow.

EDIT: also, good job posting negatively toned articles from over half a year ago, that will inevitably attract negative comments, too. A positively toned article on the same site has rather different comments.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/11/18085084/star-citizen-3-3-alpha-update-improvements
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 22, 2018, 11:58:35 am
Prove your assertions, maslo.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2018, 12:18:26 pm
Prove your assertions, maslo.

Number of SC backers: 2.2 million (some duplicate accounts but still)
Size of the gaming community: ~some hundreds of millions

Number of negative comments about SC in your usual article comment section: 10-100 (and this is while they do get linked heavily to SC active discussions on the internet, both pro and anti ones)

Heck, SC subreddit visitors (not even talking about commenters) are like less than 1% of backers.

From a general point of view, things we are discussing in this thread are a mere storm in a teapot. The only way this could change is if SC releases and turns out to be either a great success, or fails development completely. Until then, most people dont give a damn.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on December 22, 2018, 01:34:58 pm
Quote
I think Wing Commander 1 & 3 were much better in this area.

Hey! I liked WC2's torpedo runs!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 22, 2018, 01:39:42 pm
98% of backers, and 99% of general gaming public, does not care to comment and/or are mostly neutral. And the only way this could possibly change is if the project actually fails spectacularly. That could indeed be big news. Other than that, nobody gives a **** about years of delay or changing/expanding scope. Business as usual in game development. End result is what will count, the rest will disappear like last year snow.

Yeah, see, what you're doing here is making a "The silent majority backs me!" argument. Which never, ever works; Sure, the majority of the gaming community does not care about SC. Similarly, most of SCs backers are silent.

But to extrapolate from that that anyone voicing criticism of the game is "a goon or other troll" is .... wrong. Statistically wrong, because you can't prove whether or not someone commenting semi-anonymously on the reddits or other comment sections is a SA member, and rhetorically wrong, because there are many, many criticisms that can be levelled against SC, CIG, SC evangelists and Chris Roberts specifically, ranging from their litany of broken promises (Remember the whole "we'll never take outside investors!"? How does that look, now that they got 48 million USD in external funding? Or any release date they've ever set? Or their assertions that S42 was pretty much complete, several years ago?) to their constant desire to rewrite history (Remember yourself saying that "real development only started $CURRENT_YEAR-2"?).

And, finally: CIG currently has a cash burn rate of about 4 million USD/month according to their public financials. They also have 17m in remaining assets. You can figure out for yourself what they have to do to get to the 2020 date that is currently their deadline.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2018, 01:54:06 pm
Judging by the reception SC gets anywhere except on Spectrum, r/starcitizen, and dedicated fansites, I'd say most people aren't ambivalent, they're distrustful at best.

Whenever Star Citizen gets posted to r/games or r/pcgaming, disparaging and skeptical comments are invariably the most common and most upvoted.  Because after 7 years, SC's become a bit of a joke.  It's the new DNF.

Number of SC backers: 2.2 million (some duplicate accounts but still)
Nope.  That's only the number of registered accounts on robertspaceindustries.  The actual number of backers is only about half that. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4sifhi/interview_with_turbulent_and_some_backers_figures/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on December 22, 2018, 03:53:39 pm
I guess I have to spell it out for one or two people who take things completely literally, but the point of posting that Reddit thread was to show that, even in what should be the heart of SC fanboy territory, there were a sizeable minority (if not a 50-50 split) of commenters joking or expressing frustration about the ridiculous delays, and numerous people bemoaning the fact that feature creep had wreaked havoc on the original scope and timeline of the project.  A couple of years ago all of that absolutely would have been downvoted to oblivion, but it certainly isn't now.  So what does that say, then?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 23, 2018, 09:55:02 am
Yeah, see, what you're doing here is making a "The silent majority backs me!" argument. Which never, ever works; Sure, the majority of the gaming community does not care about SC. Similarly, most of SCs backers are silent.

And, finally: CIG currently has a cash burn rate of about 4 million USD/month according to their public financials. They also have 17m in remaining assets. You can figure out for yourself what they have to do to get to the 2020 date that is currently their deadline.

Silent majority is split between being cautiously optimistic, neutral, and cautiously pessimistic. I dont really have an issue with such opinions as all are valid at this time and open to changing their minds if the game turns out to be good. It is the extremists, those who think SC is a scam or a trainwreck about to go bankrupt in 90 days tops, that are a very small and irrelevant minority. Most of them are Goons or otherwise directly tied to anti-SC internet hubs on SA or reddit. They are not relevant in the big picture at all.

All they have to do to get to 2021 is to keep their income from backers at a level similar to what it was during last few years. Their burn rate roughly equals their income rate. And if not, there seems to be enough outside capital available to help bridge the gap.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 23, 2018, 10:21:36 am
Silent majority is split between being cautiously optimistic, neutral, and cautiously pessimistic.

You can't know that. That's what "silent majority" means.

Quote
I dont really have an issue with such opinions as all are valid at this time and open to changing their minds if the game turns out to be good. It is the extremists, those who think SC is a scam or a trainwreck about to go bankrupt in 90 days tops, that are a very small and irrelevant minority. Most of them are Goons or otherwise directly tied to anti-SC internet hubs on SA or reddit.

You can't know that either.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 23, 2018, 10:32:55 am
Goons don’t care about SC, it’s a big-ass forum. Same way EVE ‘goons’ barely register to most of SA.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 23, 2018, 11:23:22 am
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

It's got better turret/subsystem interaction than core FS2, and the ability to swap between 'plane' and 'VTOL' flight modes gets rid of the worst part of FS2's fighter/capship dynamic - the long, boring resets where you get distance to make your next run. And capships defend themselves much more actively than in (say) FS1. The fighter-on-fighter dynamic is pretty weak, the missions are fairly narrow in scope, and it's short on challenge and content, but as a AAA for-the-masses space shooter goes it's really good.

I don't care about weird nuances of who believes what about which product, I just wanna say IW is a good-ass game and you can play it right now if you're looking for an expensive, cinematic, space-legs story.

One last thing: are you confined to either M+K or a Xinput pad or can you use a Directinput joystick with rebindable buttons too? I'm still mildly traumatized by the nightmare Battlefront 2 was on that front.

Quote
I think Wing Commander 1 & 3 were much better in this area.

Hey! I liked WC2's torpedo runs!

I did too, the only problem was that with that stupid sprite-based engine it was too damn easy to get too close when doing those.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on December 23, 2018, 11:25:30 am
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

It's got better turret/subsystem interaction than core FS2, and the ability to swap between 'plane' and 'VTOL' flight modes gets rid of the worst part of FS2's fighter/capship dynamic - the long, boring resets where you get distance to make your next run. And capships defend themselves much more actively than in (say) FS1. The fighter-on-fighter dynamic is pretty weak, the missions are fairly narrow in scope, and it's short on challenge and content, but as a AAA for-the-masses space shooter goes it's really good.

I don't care about weird nuances of who believes what about which product, I just wanna say IW is a good-ass game and you can play it right now if you're looking for an expensive, cinematic, space-legs story.

One last thing: are you confined to either M+K or a Xinput pad or can you use a Directinput joystick with rebindable buttons too? I'm still mildly traumatized by the nightmare Battlefront 2 was on that front.

I don't know! I've only ever flown with m/kb since I was a kid.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 23, 2018, 07:13:38 pm
Flying with mouse in Battlefront 2 is an exercise in frustration and misery imho. The old BF2 oth, had great flight controls for m+kb, in fact I still play it on my ****ty laptop from time to time.

And furthermore, Star Citizen is good.

josephstalin.jpeg

It has always been good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 24, 2018, 02:54:03 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VGD5wFnAQQ#t=282s



https://wccftech.com/roberts-squadron-42-above-god-of-war/
This man just can't stop running his loving dumb mouth.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on December 24, 2018, 03:00:19 pm
I read again that Wing Commander 3 and 4 cost four and 12 million to make respectively.

SC has got over 200 million last I checked.  This is more in regard to SQ42 than SC, but surely for a small multiple of the amount in my opening sentence CR could have made a high quality space sim game and could have had it out by now right?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on December 24, 2018, 03:16:46 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VGD5wFnAQQ#t=282s



https://wccftech.com/roberts-squadron-42-above-god-of-war/
This man just can't stop running his loving dumb mouth.

Quote
We’ve crafted it in such a way that you’re making the choices. The difference compared to — in some of our past games, some of the actual choices you make, in terms of character interaction, are made for you, not by you as the player. But in our case, we’ve very carefully crafted it so you choose who you befriend, who you hang out with, who you talk to, how you find out what their life stories are.

It's almost as if several decades of experiments in in-game storytelling are completely new to Roberts, isn't it.

Also, holy **** the hubris of that man. "A better story than God of War or The Last Of Us", sure, Mr "Vanduul", I totally believe you can actually make that happen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 24, 2018, 03:58:07 pm
I read again that Wing Commander 3 and 4 cost four and 12 million to make respectively.

SC has got over 200 million last I checked.  This is more in regard to SQ42 than SC, but surely for a small multiple of the amount in my opening sentence CR could have made a high quality space sim game and could have had it out by now right?

Sure, in theory you can create a good game with that budget... if you have some management skills.

But in reality SC is simply going to be over 50 times better than than WC3.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on December 24, 2018, 06:44:23 pm
Prophecy was a bag of arse.

I really was.

wait wut

 :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on December 24, 2018, 06:53:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VGD5wFnAQQ#t=282s

If i watch something like that, i am asking if you are kidding me?

I mean... the Turrets are shooting at an enemy the whole time and no one of the AI cares about that, for example, shut down the Elevator? Close all doors?
Seems that all of them are deaf and so are even surprised that there is an intruder?

Yes, i know it is not a Star Citizien exclusive phenomenon, situations like that happened in Mass Effect and Parkan 2, in some occasions that also happened in my absolute favorite Space Sim/First Person Shooter combo The Precursors, too. But well... if you are talking about a realistic game world... i mean, at least a locked down elevator and closed doors should already implemented  :D

Next to the CryEngine they had should take over the cheating AI (at least on the higher difficulties) from the CrySis games back then, too  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 24, 2018, 08:20:46 pm
I mean... the Turrets are shooting at an enemy the whole time and no one of the AI cares about that, for example, shut down the Elevator? Close all doors?
Seems that all of them are deaf and so are even surprised that there is an intruder?

artificial stupidity

Looking at the life indicators, can I die in SC from a heart attack in the midst of a firefight if SC detects that I have an unhealthy lifestyle ingame?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 24, 2018, 11:52:39 pm
Prophecy was a bag of arse.
I'm seeing this only now.
I wouldn't be *that* harsh but having waves after waves of enemies that are too fast for you in a game that still uses limited afterburner fuel is not a good idea, also that energy system is just useless.

It felt less diverse than WC3.

Which is saying something, the best remains 4 but it's still not quite up to Tie Fighter or Freespace standard.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on December 25, 2018, 05:31:38 am
It felt less diverse than WC3.

Which is saying something, the best remains 4 but it's still not quite up to Tie Fighter or Freespace standard.

I actually never liked 4 much, because it was a boring gameplay between all the cutscenes... have to say that this one would had worked much better as a pure Interactive Movie like Star Trek: Borg.
Wing Commander 3 was much better in this prospect, because there the developer at least tried to create some unique missions :nod:.

So i am sceptical for SQ42 in general, because CR is again trying too much of this "interactive movie" stuff...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 25, 2018, 11:17:58 am
That's because he's not really interested in making games.  He wants to make movies.  Like I posted back in September (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1873161#msg1873161), he wasn't involved in designing the gameplay/coding side of WC3.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 25, 2018, 11:51:13 am
It felt less diverse than WC3.

Which is saying something, the best remains 4 but it's still not quite up to Tie Fighter or Freespace standard.

I actually never liked 4 much, because it was a boring gameplay between all the cutscenes... have to say that this one would had worked much better as a pure Interactive Movie like Star Trek: Borg.
Wing Commander 3 was much better in this prospect, because there the developer at least tried to create some unique missions :nod:.

So i am sceptical for SQ42 in general, because CR is again trying too much of this "interactive movie" stuff...
I've played them rather recently one after another and WC3 has much less variety than 4, perhaps because there is much more FMV stuff in 4 so people forget the gameplay is actually better but WC3 was a string of endless search and destroy missions. Hell, some of the few variations were a bit half-assed like the one mission where you have to disable ships and instead of giving you a special loadout to disable ships there is a frigging script that considers ships as "disabled" once you have shot them enough times with normal weapons.
4 already had some more variations and more story stuff during missions (still not much mind you).

That's because he's not really interested in making games.  He wants to make movies.  Like I posted back in September (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1873161#msg1873161), he wasn't involved in designing the gameplay/coding side of WC3.

Nor 4 or Prophecy IIRC but for some reason he kept some of the worst aspects of Prophecy for Starlancer's gameplay.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on December 28, 2018, 10:19:21 am
I didn't feel like that. Prophecy at last didn't have the "Two pilots against the galaxy" thing that was a staple of the series since its inception.

I had a very different read as well, especially in Special Ops where the Federation really starts throwing its weight into the Nephilem war. At the time, that mission where you're sent to rescue two Murphy destroyers and a Plunkett cruiser was THE largest space battle I had ever seen simulated to that point. There were legitimately great missions, and your wingmen weren't useless. You were simply fighting overwhelming numbers. 

In Prophecy, the point was that Midway was the first major Confederation response to a new genocidal alien race. The race was to shutdown the wormhole so a proper response could be prepared.

On a lore note, the Wing Commander Armada manual, the last bit of actual canon WC lore, stated the Confederacy/Kilrathi alliance eventually won the war against the bugs, but it was a grinding slaughter fest for most of it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on December 29, 2018, 04:55:59 pm
Casual reminder this thread alone was started in July 2015 and we were already making jokes about how long it was taking. But they'll totally be in beta for one part of it by 2020.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on December 29, 2018, 05:10:19 pm
Casual reminder that I released Wings of Dawn 1 April 2015 and released Episode 2 today. On a zero dollar budget.

Waiting on that SQ42 release, Mister croberts :V
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 29, 2018, 05:58:45 pm
Ain't SQ42 the secret abbreviation for Second Quarter '42? I thought they had coded in their release date somehow.

Casual reminder that I released Wings of Dawn 1 April 2015 and released Episode 2 today. On a zero dollar budget.

Not all game developers are as skilled as you. :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2018, 01:30:26 am
Casual reminder that I released Wings of Dawn 1 April 2015 and released Episode 2 today. On a zero dollar budget.

Waiting on that SQ42 release, Mister croberts :V

Look if Wings of Dawn doesn't simulate the weight of the main character's breakfast and how it affects the ship flight model, how can you possibly call it a real space sim?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on January 01, 2019, 09:23:16 pm
Casual reminder that I released Wings of Dawn 1 April 2015 and released Episode 2 today. On a zero dollar budget.

Waiting on that SQ42 release, Mister croberts :V

That's not fair, you are an actually competent developer that doesn't need someone to kick them in the ass to stop adding features and focus on what matters, not some dweeb that really wants to be a movie director but is stuck with making videogames so he can't even focus on what the game is going to be because he is too worried about badly directing mo-capped hollywood stars.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on January 02, 2019, 02:49:19 pm
Casual reminder that I released Wings of Dawn 1 April 2015 and released Episode 2 today. On a zero dollar budget.

Waiting on that SQ42 release, Mister croberts :V

What would you do though if you had the around 200 million $ budget CR has?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on January 02, 2019, 05:02:54 pm
Not all game developers are as skilled as you. :D
Not all game devs are blessed to be working with Axem.

Look if Wings of Dawn doesn't simulate the weight of the main character's breakfast and how it affects the ship flight model, how can you possibly call it a real space sim?
(https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/c/4/shuckyes.001.gif) True, true.

That's not fair, you are a actually a competent developer that doesn't need someone to kick them in the ass to stop adding features and focus on what matters, not some dweeb that really wants to be a movie director but is stuck with making videogames so he can't even focus on what the game is going to be because he is too worried about badly directing mo-capped hollywood stars.
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-allears.gif)

What would you do though if you had the around 200 million $ budget CR has?
Completely crumple under the pressure of having to work with that much money, having to employ a lot of people and be responsible for their livelihood.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 02, 2019, 05:14:05 pm
Not all game devs are blessed to be working with Axem.

Perhabs they should've used the entire money to find a way to clone Axem for their game development and make the world a better place as a side effect.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on January 02, 2019, 06:35:42 pm
Given that they have a bunch of money and probably won't have released anything useable in 20 years time, cloning Axem is actually a viable business model.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 02, 2019, 06:37:43 pm
What would you do though if you had the around 200 million $ budget CR has?

Completely crumple under the pressure of having to work with that much money, having to employ a lot of people and be responsible for their livelihood.

I suspect you could find something else to do with that budget (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjvTEUG6KU&t=145) besides getting crushed beneath its moral and/or literal weight.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Axem on January 02, 2019, 06:44:48 pm
* checks in on the thread

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/334491883264933889.png?v=1)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SamVision on January 03, 2019, 02:00:48 am
Is Star Citizen finished yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on January 03, 2019, 04:51:36 am
No, unfortunately.

(For both senses of the term "finished")
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 04, 2019, 04:14:31 pm
* checks in on the thread

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/334491883264933889.png?v=1)
Hello good sir, would you mind giving us a DNA sample & submit to a high definition brain scan ?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 04, 2019, 04:39:58 pm
* checks in on the thread

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/334491883264933889.png?v=1)
Hello good sir, would you mind giving us a DNA sample & submit to a high definition brain scan ?

Dear Mr. Axem,

my name is Chris Roberts and I am a movie director who was born inside the wrong body. That of a game developer. My company is built upon innovative snowball marketing and currently successfully pretends to work on a space sim game. Everything was going fine, however, suddenly multiple persons demanded that I not only feed their imagination, but deliver actual content, what is a serious threat to my business model. I was told that you are actually able to release "quality content", that's why I am asking you for your cooperation in the above mentioned subject. My pool, the luxurious life of my employees and the mental integrity of my victims, er, backers, depends on it. Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,

Croberts

PS. I've heard you've got interesting information regarding a certain "Derek Smart" who wants to destroy my Cloud Imperium. How much do you want for that?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 13, 2019, 10:03:46 am
So did this "game" just kind of peter out? I know Derek Smart stopped talking about it because he said it was a dead game walking but you'd expect some other news, right? Is it coming out soon?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 13, 2019, 10:24:25 am
So did this "game" just kind of peter out? I know Derek Smart stopped talking about it because he said it was a dead game walking but you'd expect some other news, right? Is it coming out soon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on March 13, 2019, 10:28:57 am
Yes. Very Soon.

On a more serious note, they're releasing 3.5 this month. And looking at their roadmap, they seem to be developing at a snail's pace.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on March 13, 2019, 10:29:57 am
Two weeks.

(https://i.imgur.com/yTx5wMK.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 13, 2019, 11:33:58 am
Beautiful. That really looks like something I want to play.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on March 13, 2019, 11:53:19 am
Beautiful. That really looks like something I want to play.

Maybe as a physics educational program in schools.

"Who can say me, what is wrong in this clip?"

Because today i think that there are children who would guess it wrong  :)

Interesting that this thread has over two months without any reply.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 13, 2019, 11:58:41 am
Interesting that this thread has over two months without any reply.

The Shattered Stars Citizens thread also isn't as active as before, I mean everything that can be said has been said.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on March 13, 2019, 12:06:29 pm
Two weeks.

(https://i.imgur.com/yTx5wMK.gif)

The new Dead Space is still coming along nicely, I see
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on March 13, 2019, 03:51:45 pm
Business as usual in the verse:

(https://i.imgur.com/axEyOgg.png)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 13, 2019, 05:48:22 pm
Is this photoshopped or truly in-game?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on March 13, 2019, 05:59:57 pm
This is the still unannouced partnership with Star Trek.

These are Gorns from Star Trek: Enterprise, definitely.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on March 13, 2019, 06:03:16 pm
https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/b0n6aw/normies_but_aliens_arent_in_the_game_yet_me/Ingame (https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/b0n6aw/normies_but_aliens_arent_in_the_game_yet_me/Ingame)

To be fair, this kind of body horror bugs have been in SC since forever, since CryEngine itself does this kind of thing if the animations get borked.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 13, 2019, 07:29:55 pm
So this wasn't an intentional decision of Croberts to extend SCs into the horror genre? Good to know, the feature creep would probably have become too extreme. :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on March 14, 2019, 06:25:21 pm
So this wasn't an intentional decision of Croberts to extend SCs into the horror genre? Good to know, the feature creep would probably have become too extreme. :D

I do remember old dev posts  that boarding abandoned relics with hostile aliens on board was definitely a cool idea that they would absolutely implement. :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on March 14, 2019, 06:30:09 pm
So this wasn't an intentional decision of Croberts to extend SCs into the horror genre? Good to know, the feature creep would probably have become too extreme. :D

Dead Space is, technically, a space game. So really he has no choice but to try to include it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on March 24, 2019, 12:26:20 pm
https://streamable.com/c22v6 female commandos are in, the game is saved

(https://i.imgur.com/NRrnNXZ.gif)

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 24, 2019, 12:34:00 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/NRrnNXZ.gif)

Karaoke and dance x Spacesim. :eek2: You're a mad genius, Mr. Croberts. Even Derek Smart couldn't have come up with this.

Or did he steal that Disco from JAD?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 24, 2019, 01:36:24 pm
<generic joke about female with deep throat>
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on March 24, 2019, 01:44:19 pm
https://streamable.com/c22v6 female commandos are in, the game is saved

(https://i.imgur.com/NRrnNXZ.gif)



also

(https://i.imgur.com/Moi8Rpr.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on March 24, 2019, 05:07:09 pm

Karaoke and dance x Spacesim. :eek2: You're a mad genius, Mr. Croberts. Even Derek Smart couldn't have come up with this.

Chris Roberts was also the name of a now-dead german schlager singer... i feel a Chris Roberts conspiracy that have to do with Martians.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on March 24, 2019, 05:44:35 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Moi8Rpr.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 0rph3u5 on March 24, 2019, 06:54:14 pm
I think there is a joke in there somewhere... I am just not seeing it, I suppose.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on March 26, 2019, 05:30:04 pm
https://i.imgur.com/OyqezwW.gifv (https://i.imgur.com/OyqezwW.gifv)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on March 26, 2019, 09:58:24 pm
https://i.imgur.com/OyqezwW.gifv (https://i.imgur.com/OyqezwW.gifv)
Still going for that dead space look I see.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 26, 2019, 10:21:08 pm
Maybe we should contact Mr. Croberts to give him suggestions for all the genres SC is missing so far. Though I'm not following this closely (I mean it's not like something will be released in the end) I haven't seen a proper crime story in it yet (aside the one where a company makes money by ripping of investors). As if crime wouldn't exist anymore... it's plain unrealistic.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 27, 2019, 01:38:24 am
It'll have a kawaii dating sim module now there are females.......
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Novachen on March 27, 2019, 07:21:59 am
Hopefully with some porn.

Sexy Star Beach
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 27, 2019, 08:17:35 am
It'll have a kawaii dating sim module now there are females.......

:yes: Now SC needs only some proper shaders to make them look like a CGI anime. :nod:

Hopefully with some porn.

Sexy Star Beach

+1 for realism. ~10% of the internet are made of porn, so why not have a game with 10% porn? ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on March 27, 2019, 09:11:43 am
Someone really needs to put that gif to some heavy metal.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on March 27, 2019, 10:45:27 am
Star Citizen is really really great ...

... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRgNOyCnbqg

(Blast from the past.  :))
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on March 27, 2019, 11:05:55 am
Screw it, I was feeling a little bored.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 27, 2019, 11:59:43 am
SC rocks!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on March 27, 2019, 12:43:10 pm
Kara that's too perfect.  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 25, 2019, 05:05:09 am
So... anyone still backing this game and trying out the new city planet?

I pretty much just want them to optimise the game so it runs those 30fps smoothly without a killer rig and doesn't crash so often. Then I can buy the game and do trading missions (which I understand are implemented) until I grind enough to get some of the other ships. I'll be quite happy with this being a space Euro Truck Simulator
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on April 25, 2019, 06:56:45 am
I pretty much just want them to optimise the game so it runs those 30fps smoothly without a killer rig and doesn't crash so often. Then I can buy the game and do trading missions (which I understand are implemented) until I grind enough to get some of the other ships. I'll be quite happy with this being a space Euro Truck Simulator

or you could buy Elite Dangerous, which unlike Star Citizen is an actual game
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 25, 2019, 07:59:21 am
So... anyone still backing this game and trying out the new city planet?

I pretty much just want them to optimise the game so it runs those 30fps smoothly without a killer rig and doesn't crash so often. Then I can buy the game and do trading missions (which I understand are implemented) until I grind enough to get some of the other ships. I'll be quite happy with this being a space Euro Truck Simulator
Elite works better at being Euro Truck Simulator in space, it still looks pretty but is much more optimized and runs well even on lower end PCs, I played it smoothly enough with a Radeon HD 7770 for years before upgrading to a RX 580 (while last free weekend I tried Star Citizen still had performance issues). For all its problems is still in better shape than Star Citizen in basically every way.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 25, 2019, 08:12:54 am
I am aware of that :) I've spent almost 400h playing Elite though, so another space sim would be nice. I'm aware of Star Citizen's limitations, however I'll be happy with just flying around with limited actual gameplay and content. They just need to make it stable. Aand drop the price a bit which probably won't happen. Aand make the in game economy make sense you don't have to grind for 10 years to be able to buy a larger starship for in game money. So yeah, I'll need to wait a bit longer ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on April 25, 2019, 08:22:35 am
I am aware of that :) I've spent almost 400h playing Elite though, so another space sim would be nice. I'm aware of Star Citizen's limitations, however I'll be happy with just flying around with limited actual gameplay and content. They just need to make it stable. Aand drop the price a bit which probably won't happen. Aand make the in game economy make sense you don't have to grind for 10 years to be able to buy a larger starship for in game money. So yeah, I'll need to wait a bit longer ;)

Might I also recommend Rebel Galaxy Outlaw, which is supposed to come out later this year for just 30 USD.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 25, 2019, 08:44:45 am
The latest X game is More Star citizen than Star Citizen is too.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on April 25, 2019, 10:05:10 am
https://www.newsweek.com/star-citizen-director-chris-roberts-reveal-how-fix-anthem-1401588

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5NfbpLmMHI this also seems relevant to star citizen
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: wookieejedi on April 25, 2019, 10:55:56 am
I'm surprised his 'advice' didn't consist of telling Anthem to just release jpegs  :lol:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 25, 2019, 11:16:53 am
The latest X game is More Star citizen than Star Citizen is too.
Actually forgot about it! It will be worth a try, I just hope they have ship interiors somewhat modeled, as that's what I'm really missing so far.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on April 25, 2019, 01:08:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5NfbpLmMHI this also seems relevant to star citizen

Replace "technical debt" with C.Roberts and you've got a (un)making-of of SC.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 25, 2019, 04:06:53 pm
The latest X game is More Star citizen than Star Citizen is too.
Actually forgot about it! It will be worth a try, I just hope they have ship interiors somewhat modeled, as that's what I'm really missing so far.

Hope this is good enough of an example bud...


Edit, they leave the bridge 4 minutes in...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 26, 2019, 03:34:26 am
I'm sold.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 26, 2019, 04:06:38 am
****, that game is ugly as sin. And the UI is just so... bare.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 26, 2019, 07:28:59 am
Did you want real time rendered whisky? ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on April 26, 2019, 09:24:31 am
Did you want real time rendered whisky? ;)

No, but effort into something that didn't assault my eyes would have been nice. :P
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on April 26, 2019, 11:41:46 am
Did you want real time rendered whisky? ;)

Only if it's optimized for a silky-smooth 12fps.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SkycladGuardian on April 27, 2019, 06:35:58 pm
****, that game is ugly as sin. And the UI is just so... bare.
It's a german economy simulator. Mechanics always beat visuals  ;)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on April 28, 2019, 05:53:01 am
****, that game is ugly as sin. And the UI is just so... bare.
Well I hope it's better than X3's UI :shaking:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 03, 2019, 01:39:42 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#11c25895ac96 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/#11c25895ac96)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: 0rph3u5 on May 03, 2019, 01:54:24 pm
Quote
If you don’t play video games, you probably have never heard of Roberts. But in the world of consoles and controllers, he is Keith Richards

That's just rude to Keith Richards.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on May 03, 2019, 02:08:52 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Sbukj3T.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/oWrjVDU.gif)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 03, 2019, 02:34:32 pm
Impressive, impressive these Vacuum planets and breakdance ships.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on May 03, 2019, 03:33:51 pm
It's just realism, who can forget the Shuttles bouncing around the VAB. Everyone has seen those. I bet that if you were to go into your garage right now, your car too will ricochet off the walls.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 03, 2019, 05:22:59 pm
I think it is a different sort of realism: they're simply showing us how the new little ships are made. Most video games just use the euphemism of "docks" (from docking), but it is once again SC that shows us how the reality looks like.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: IronBeer on May 05, 2019, 04:11:55 pm
(gif1)
Magnificent. The door closing after is icing on the cake.

(gif2)
And now without snark- what an awful physics model. Those ships don't even look/feel like toys, they're so light. Nevermind a multi-ton high-tech spacefaring war machine.

Seven years and four hundred million dollars, people.

Get a refund.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on May 06, 2019, 09:03:22 am
I wonder when Croberts will write his 5000-word rebuttal to the Forbes article, highlighting their undeniable connection to Derek Smart and proving that they're nothing but his mouthpiece.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on May 06, 2019, 11:03:19 am
That Forbes article sure did a good job of kicking the hornet's nest of ****izens. They're in full Defcon 1 panic.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on May 06, 2019, 12:57:00 pm
It appalls me that anyone can read a history like that outlined on the Forbes article and think SC is anything but a perpetual-money-raising machine at this point.  Maybe one day a mediocre game will be released, but in the meantime the only thing making that *possibly* happen is the continued exploitation of people too easily parted from their money.  It's appalling.  At this point, Roberts could release the greatest game of all time and I'd flatly refuse to buy it on principle.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on May 06, 2019, 01:04:37 pm
Ignore that negativity. He’s obviously a goon and doesn’t understand that this game is a revolution in development. No publishers, no money grubbing investors, just a man with a dream and fans who trust him to take as long as he needs to get it right.

:shepicide:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on May 06, 2019, 01:08:25 pm
Man remember when that original trailer came out and some of us said “it’s funny that none of the ships ever get hit or interact, guess they have a ways to go on gameplay systems.”

Has anything ever been so accidentally, hilariously, completely correct
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on May 06, 2019, 01:55:29 pm
Ignore that negativity. He’s obviously a goon and doesn’t understand that this game is a revolution in development. No publishers, no money grubbing investors, just a man with a dream and fans who trust him to take as long as he needs to get it right.

Oversight is overrated.  If it weren't for all that damned accountability, CRoberts would have made Freelancer a goddamn masterpiece.

Who needs a product, when you can sell a dream?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 06, 2019, 05:00:53 pm
That's the basis of kickstarter as a whole surely?  ;7
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MP-Ryan on May 06, 2019, 05:06:47 pm
That's the basis of kickstarter as a whole surely?  ;7

What a delightfully devastatingly-accurate comment.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on May 07, 2019, 07:38:16 am
So I gave the game a try during the free week. And BlueFlames is correct, it's a dream. Buggy, won't be finished etc. but surprisingly not that terrible.

Not sure if anyone remembers when an early version of Doom 3 got leaked years ago.  It ran 15 fps on my system, had a few unfinished levels, but I still spent hours just shooting at boxes, watching them fall from shelves and being awed by the physics of the game. I was awed by the graphics and the ability to interact with computers in game. It turned out to be a mediocre game, but the concept was really cool.

Same situation here. I really like some of the elements the game has like the planets, detailed locations, great ship interiors. Generally, space legs. I know other games have already done these and also have competent game loops (x rebirth, x4, no man's sky etc...), but there is something great about the general feel Star Citizen has when it comes to space legs. I think it has something to do with the unnecessary stuff like gimmicky and awkward ship panels you have to use to manage ship energy, shields, etc. I'm waiting 3 in game minutes for a space tram to take me to my next destination and I'm somehow blown away by the experience while at the same time thinking what a chore it will be to use this transportation system after a while. These things will kill the game in the long run, but somehow make it really interesting at first glance.

I don't understand why I am being attracted to this empty immersive shell of a game and praising space legs, while at the same time I'm rolling my eyes when hearing Elite is going to get them and thinking Elite should get more gameplay loops first. Star Citizen is really frickin attractive despite all of it's obvious flaws and controversies and I'm not sure why, I think I need someone more competent to analyze this for me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 07, 2019, 07:59:49 am
While they wasted tons of money, it's not like they just laid back and did nothing. The concept is attractive (that's why they're still having people willing to pay for it), but extremely difficult to realize, as other developers found out before, and C.Roberts has not the management skills required for this. Perhaps they should've used a more modular system, like 'if we raise that much money, you'll get this', but since the vision was changed so often a good chunk of the money was burned at the stake. What is a shame because they had more than enough chances to stop making bad decisions and rescue the project while still having enough bucks to make it an awesome game.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kiloku on May 08, 2019, 01:14:47 pm
[...]

So that's what a space elevator is like!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on May 11, 2019, 11:24:03 am
(https://i.imgur.com/FPsQhHh.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 11, 2019, 12:19:56 pm
I knew it, SCs broken reality gameplay is driving people into suicide.

Speaking of it, is suicide already implemented properly or would I have to wait for minutes if the space train is late and no gun is available?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on May 11, 2019, 11:17:13 pm
Pretty sure there is a key or key combination for it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mpez on May 12, 2019, 03:15:13 am
Speaking of it, is suicide already implemented properly or would I have to wait for minutes if the space train is late and no gun is available?
It's under backspace. I've learned that during my first 30 min with the game :D
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on May 12, 2019, 06:01:36 am
So once I relieved myself from the burdens of gameplay, is there already an afterlife awaiting me with a picture of The Creator, or did Mr.Roberts not think of this way to honor His work yet?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 07, 2019, 11:55:54 am
Back into Mount and Blade again, because I need a good hacking slashing pointy things game. Only 976 hours into it, so still fairly new to the series.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Spoon on June 07, 2019, 12:39:05 pm
Back into Mount and Blade again, because I need a good hacking slashing pointy things game. Only 976 hours into it, so still fairly new to the series.
Bannerlord when?

Also, starcitizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on June 11, 2019, 01:53:17 pm
A while back in the thread, we talked about Star Citizen and the Final Fantasy 7 remake as games that were being continually pushed back and we were wondering if there would be a release.


For what it's worth, it was recently announced that pt.1 of FFVIIR will see a release in March 2020.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 14, 2019, 07:47:14 pm
I actually mean to post in the "what are you playing" thread, so woopsies.

And furthermore, Star Citizen is good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on June 14, 2019, 07:57:19 pm
Any actual "SC playing" related stuff should be put into a seperate "What are you trying to play" thread for safety reasons.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on June 15, 2019, 07:01:49 am
Any actual "SC playing" related stuff should be put into a seperate "What are you trying to play" thread for safety reasons.

https://github.com/rdoeffinger/xwa_ddraw_d3d11/releases
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on July 13, 2019, 03:41:59 pm
I would like to take this time to point out that basically Warframe is turning into Star Citizen in a good way, which is EXACTLY how Star Citizen should have done its development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHu4vaLkms

You make and RELEASE your game, and slowly expand its scope from there if you like.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 14, 2019, 02:39:04 pm
OK, I only noticed now that I posted a link to the DX11 wrapper for Tie Fighter 98 in the wrong topic, for a while I thought the post had been cancelled for whatever reason.  :banghead:

I would like to take this time to point out that basically Warframe is turning into Star Citizen in a good way, which is EXACTLY how Star Citizen should have done its development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHu4vaLkms

You make and RELEASE your game, and slowly expand its scope from there if you like.

OK, it's quite telling of the overpromising and lack of focus of the project that people can reliably use online shooters as a reference for what originally was supposed to be a single player space shooter called Squadron 42 (does it even still exist?).
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: MikeRoz on July 14, 2019, 06:00:43 pm
Yes, S42 exists. Backers are treated to an awkwardly in-universe update every month. Looks like the current claim is Q2 2020. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42)

PCGAMER: The secret to Warframe's ship-to-ship space combat is that the ship doesn't actually move (https://www.pcgamer.com/the-secret-to-warframes-ship-to-ship-space-combat-is-that-the-ship-doesnt-actually-move/)

Quote
Instead, Digital Extremes is using an ancient rendering technique called 'portal rendering' which works almost exactly like it does in the puzzle game Portal. Essentially, you create a portal or a window that is attached to somewhere else in 3D space, and when you look through it you see from a different perspective. The cockpit of Warframe's spaceship is actually one big portal into an entirely separate map.

"You just connect the player controls to where that portal is," Sinclair said in our interview. "For Empyrean, there's a big 32 kilometer-squared space where all the space combat is happening and you're pitching around and it feels like you might vomit, but [off to the side] there's a little level and that's your actual spaceship. You have a solid, reliable physics system driving what appears to be this six degrees of freedom experience over here [in an entirely separate area]."

I wonder if anyone at CIG feels a bit silly now, or if this was considered and ruled out because it didn't deliver the desired level of "fidelity".

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Det. Bullock on July 14, 2019, 08:23:16 pm
Wasn't this how old school spacesims were usually programmed?
I remember something like this being mentioned relative to the engine Totally Games used for X-wing and the other Star Wars spacesims they made. I even remember that the Unity fan-remake of X-wing is using the same trick or something similar.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on July 15, 2019, 02:28:47 am
Quote
Instead, Digital Extremes is using an ancient rendering technique called 'portal rendering' which works almost exactly like it does in the puzzle game Portal. Essentially, you create a portal or a window that is attached to somewhere else in 3D space, and when you look through it you see from a different perspective. The cockpit of Warframe's spaceship is actually one big portal into an entirely separate map.

"You just connect the player controls to where that portal is," Sinclair said in our interview. "For Empyrean, there's a big 32 kilometer-squared space where all the space combat is happening and you're pitching around and it feels like you might vomit, but [off to the side] there's a little level and that's your actual spaceship. You have a solid, reliable physics system driving what appears to be this six degrees of freedom experience over here [in an entirely separate area]."

I wonder if anyone at CIG feels a bit silly now, or if this was considered and ruled out because it didn't deliver the desired level of "fidelity".

I am reasonably sure that every programmer involved in that part of the Star Citizen mess knows that this solution exists, knows that it is relatively easy to implement and highly performant, and has been told by Christ Roberts to not do it that way because "no cheating the physics" was an early mandate.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 15, 2019, 11:55:56 am
That’s effectively what they did with the ~local physics grids~. A lot of us were saying at the time that it’s a bog standard game physics technique; except as I recall for Kazan, who was telling everyone within earshot that it was an amazing genius breakthrough in programming, and anyone who said differently wasn’t a programmer being paid lots of money and banging lots of women like him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2019, 06:53:27 pm
See, what you call 2.0 I would rather call 0.2. It is a product that is not complete yet. A preview, not a release. What do I mean by complete? And what do I call a release?
I support and love to death a in-the-making game called Factorio [if you by any chance enjoy creating systems that work on their own, with a little bit of survival and exploration, totally check this out]. It is not a finished product right not. It is currenty in version 0.12. I am following it since 0.9. For this entire period of time, with every release, it has been a complete project.

It is called Star Citizen Alpha 2.0. That is below Star Citizen 1.0. It is not complete yet, nor does it aspire to be.

And I fail to see this need to release something complete when the development is still ongoing. Why do you complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only less than 3 years of development?

Vast majority of games do not release anything to the public until the game is more or less done.

And entitled gamers like this (no offense) are the reason why.

Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it. Star Citizen does release playable content, but at the same time SC makes it clear that it is heavily WIP, incomplete and buggy. Thats how you do it, the best of both worlds. Too much stability too early is an enemy of effective development.


Do you think SC is not being developed well? Fine, only higher ups ultimately know the truth about that, and we will see sooner or later what the end result is. But complaining that they have not released the game yet just makes you look like you are being impatient and ignorant of game development. They can take their time. There is no need to rush at all.

I just clicked on the link to this post in Matth's sig and it's from four actual linear years ago
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2019, 06:54:30 pm
Why do we complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only 7 years of development?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on November 24, 2019, 07:59:43 pm
Because... (https://imgur.com/gtkV923)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 29, 2019, 03:59:13 pm
Citizencon came and went. There's a video here starting with the demo:-


To summarise - the ship at the start there, the Carrack, will not be in the next release and is delayed because of course it is. I don't know how long they've been building it, but I definitely recognise it from last year. CR flakes out about buggy screens. There's an empty planet with an empty city.

There's really very little to set it apart from last year's con except this time the coffee maker didn't crash the game. I guess that's sort of progress? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on November 29, 2019, 06:40:49 pm
around 9:12:00 really cool gameplay mechanic stuff there.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on November 29, 2019, 08:35:04 pm
Someone remind me:  Was "Fix the coffee maker" one of the stretch goals of the Kickstarter campaign, or was it a core feature?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: ShivanSpS on December 14, 2019, 09:54:54 am
(https://media.robertsspaceindustries.com/27a45m9q5iinb/source.jpg)

Ultra high poly, 4K resolution GTB Ursa.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on December 14, 2019, 12:01:01 pm
They only needed a couple years to find the most effective configuration..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on January 13, 2020, 03:38:50 pm
What do you think will happen with SC in 2020?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 13, 2020, 03:44:09 pm
Squadron 42 is supposedly due to release this year, but that's all. Star Citizen is still a few years off. I don't see it releasing until at least late 2021.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 13, 2020, 04:39:08 pm
"supposedly"
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 14, 2020, 12:32:13 am
Are they even still working on the game ?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 14, 2020, 01:55:15 am
 :lol: :lol:

Gotta bait those whales so I guess yeeeaaaaaas.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 14, 2020, 08:20:45 am
Are they even still working on the game ?

I'd guess that most of the CI staff is just too busy with their RLs right now; I mean traveling takes time, sports cars need a driver, luxury restaurants don't wait forever serving meals...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: gevatter Lars on January 14, 2020, 08:56:15 am
Well there is progress but its slow, very slow, it seams. Best part is from one of the devs "if it wasn't for the ongoing alpha we could work faster. Doing a quarterly release takes so much time".
So the biggest feature, the"live" development now comes around to bite them?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 14, 2020, 09:03:25 am
If you decide that at one point in development, all (or a number of) known bugs have to be fixed to make a release it's taking more time as it somewhat interrupts the working process.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: gevatter Lars on January 14, 2020, 11:25:15 am
Well the releases are buggy as hell anyway and I thought that even during normal development you would have to make a "release" internaly to see if you are going in the right direction, see if the basic things of the game actualy work and play your own game.
So I never thought it would make that much of a differance.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on January 14, 2020, 11:35:49 am
It's just my personal guess actually with what I've seen here on HLP. Of course you fix things while doing normal development and work continues but if you constantly tell people "OK, drop what you're working on, we need to do these things first so we can throw out another release" it's slowing down everything. O'course you can say it's lightyears difference but CI doesn't seem to be that "professional" when it comes to development either.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SypheDMar on February 21, 2020, 08:46:54 am
How (un)likely is this still to happen? Decided to read six pages of this thread to do some light reading.

[attachment eaten by a Shivan]
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 21, 2020, 09:31:18 am
Regardless of everything else, I have to say I'm impressed by their planet technology. It's far beyond anything else I've seen so far, but of course that is all almost entirely meaningless if it doesn't ship. I hope such tech just doesn't get buried under this mess.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 21, 2020, 10:25:34 am
It's all a jumble wumble.

 :o
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on February 21, 2020, 12:15:53 pm
Regardless of everything else, I have to say I'm impressed by their planet technology. It's far beyond anything else I've seen so far, but of course that is all almost entirely meaningless if it doesn't ship. I hope such tech just doesn't get buried under this mess.

Outer Wilds' planet technology is far better change my mind
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 22, 2020, 07:26:58 am
How (un)likely is this still to happen? Decided to read six pages of this thread to do some light reading.

That's a very good question. CIG have been very quiet about SQ42 during most of 2019 and haven't officially acknowledged any further delays yet. At the end of the year they showed this visual teaser (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aCE7gxQOVY), which was basically panning shots of assets without any gameplay, so nobody was very impressed.
People who track the Squadron 42 roadmap (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42) noted that progress basically stalled in mid-2019. Now some of the still faithful attributed this to the ongoing lawsuit between CIG and Crytek (as in CIG is deliberately withholding the actual progress of SQ42 for legal reasons), but in latest space court news CIG and Crytek agreed to settle out of court, so that excuse is disappearing.
So it will soon be time for the Crobear to either fess up and admit even more delays, or some wet fart is released in Q2 for all the world to see.

All in all, the entertainment value of the SC drama is winding down. CIG have cut down massively on the amount of weekly youtube shows they put out, so the self-owns are getting rarer. Even the thread on SA is getting slower, since CIG is producing less lulz-material and most people simply moved on.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on February 22, 2020, 04:44:41 pm
Regardless of everything else, I have to say I'm impressed by their planet technology. It's far beyond anything else I've seen so far, but of course that is all almost entirely meaningless if it doesn't ship. I hope such tech just doesn't get buried under this mess.

Outer Wilds' planet technology is far better change my mind

lol, I actually stan for those dudes, their game is indeed impressive! I haven't played it yet, but I did watch a couple of very good reporting videos on them. I *will* eventually play it, which is a thousand times more of what I'll say for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: GhylTarvoke on February 22, 2020, 05:05:08 pm
Outer Wilds is awesome - possibly my favorite game of all time. (Controversy!)

It's also a game that would be completely ruined by spoilers, so beware!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SypheDMar on February 25, 2020, 02:21:45 pm
How (un)likely is this still to happen? Decided to read six pages of this thread to do some light reading.
All in all, the entertainment value of the SC drama is winding down. CIG have cut down massively on the amount of weekly youtube shows they put out, so the self-owns are getting rarer. Even the thread on SA is getting slower, since CIG is producing less lulz-material and most people simply moved on.
That's a shame, but I suppose there was no way hope was going to go on indefinitely.
The facepalms and lols I get from reading the folks defending SC throughout the years were fantastic.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 26, 2020, 06:39:57 am
So it will soon be time for the Crobear to either fess up and admit even more delays, or some wet fart is released in Q2 for all the world to see.

It was actually delayed last year to Q3 2020 - https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/cxjx3s/squadron_42_beta_has_been_delayed_by_3_months/

What I find more interesting are the feelings of resentment and defeatism amongst the Citizens. There are still plenty of cultists, but the impression I get is that there's a dawning realisation that they've been duped.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on February 26, 2020, 07:42:37 am
The awakening has begun :eek:
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: SypheDMar on March 06, 2020, 01:25:01 pm
I won't be completely satisfied until I know what 666maslo666 thinks.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 06, 2020, 01:42:24 pm
The awakening has begun :eek:

Questionable, I just checked in on the subreddit and they're still huddled around warm cozy walls of text (https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/fd5su2/what_alpha_means_and_what_beta_means/) saying that they Just Don't Understand Game Development and in a year or two development will suddenly speed up by an order of magnitude and a finished game will arrive in weeks.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: spart_n on March 06, 2020, 01:47:41 pm
idc how experienced a dev is, "Alpha" and "Beta" are marketing terms used for demos that the consumers pay for instead of being free in another game. and if by semantics they're not demos they're just a cheaper way to get playtesters, except now they pay you instead you pay them.

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 06, 2020, 05:28:54 pm
The awakening has begun :eek:

Questionable, I just checked in on the subreddit and they're still huddled around warm cozy walls of text (https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/fd5su2/what_alpha_means_and_what_beta_means/) saying that they Just Don't Understand Game Development and in a year or two development will suddenly speed up by an order of magnitude and a finished game will arrive in weeks.

Still it's a new decade, and now that the 2010s are over some people will leave the cult, at least those who put "stop getting fooled easily" as goals for the 2020s.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 07, 2020, 01:05:23 am
How long has it been since this whole thing started 🤣🤣
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 07, 2020, 05:52:09 am
Just 5 years since the thread started, 7 since the first Alpha release... good things take a while..
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 07, 2020, 06:03:58 am
Not quickies.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 07, 2020, 06:30:48 am
There's no reason for being hasty. Only the greater goal counts. If the faith of his followers in the Citizens Temple is waning, Chris Roberts will  gather the most faithful of them and move to a remote place in the Amazonian forest, where he will found a village by the name of Crobertstown with the promise to make a RL version of the game for the members of his cult, but in the end, they realize that they have made a terrible mistake by trusting that man...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on March 07, 2020, 10:42:37 am
Pretty sure he tried that already, and the village burned down, along with half the rainforest.

I'm sure it's fine.  I just don't understand the nuances of village building.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 08, 2020, 08:12:58 am
im looking forward to the part where CIG murders a senator who goes to investigate citizencon 2024: guatemala
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on March 08, 2020, 08:26:56 am
There's no reason for being hasty. Only the greater goal counts. If the faith of his followers in the Citizens Temple is waning, Chris Roberts will  gather the most faithful of them and move to a remote place in the Amazonian forest, where he will found a village by the name of Crobertstown with the promise to make a RL version of the game for the members of his cult, but in the end, they realize that they have made a terrible mistake by trusting that man...

I like where this is going, but I think you're missing the true goal. The true goal would be to use the gathered funds, and any other donations Citizens are willing to give, to buy one of the many WW2 museum ships and restore it to seagoing capability so that development can take greater inspiration from that one time in history that crobears actually know.

This will be represented in-game as an org citizens can pay to join virtually, a Sea-Org, if you will.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on March 08, 2020, 03:24:05 pm
im looking forward to the part where CIG murders a senator who goes to investigate citizencon 2024: guatemala

"We already suspected that something was wrong due to naming of their meeting place, most things ending with -con are bad like Lolicon, Siscon and then Citizencon... but we ingored the warning signs..."
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Kiloku on April 20, 2020, 08:30:02 am
Apparently there was a new delay, and from what I can gather from the disappointed comments in the SC subreddit, the delayed stuff were rather important features/content.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on April 20, 2020, 12:21:52 pm
Croberts must be relieved that he can come up with a Corona excuse... his only problem is that there'll be still backers left that just won't die...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on July 31, 2020, 07:15:42 am
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/07/star-citizen-dev-offers-roadmap-for-development-of-new-development-roadmap/

This is far too ****ing funny.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: starlord on July 31, 2020, 08:33:25 am
Is it just me or does anyone here also ponder about what could have happened if a virology lab had that kind of money directed towards them?

This project is inherently disgusting to me.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 31, 2020, 08:39:49 am
Well most of the money was burnt years ago before Corona is a thing. Dunno how good they're at making people stay at their cult now with the economy going downhill.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: starlord on July 31, 2020, 08:56:29 am
Of course it was, but to have money held in reserve for literally life saving investments might actually a relevant thing. Who would have thought?

I consider myself to be just as much of a space sim crazed junkie as anyone else in that forum, but even I will tend to say that a multi hundred million dollar investment on a video game is a surefire sign that social priorities are going straight to hell.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on July 31, 2020, 10:35:06 am
Capitalism ensures the most efficient distribution of resources within a society.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on July 31, 2020, 02:25:02 pm
Well if Africa was part of our society, no/few games would exist
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Grizzly on July 31, 2020, 04:00:01 pm
Africa is as much a part of our society as anyone else. Where do you think the materials that your CPU is made out of come from? Why do you think you can afford it? To quote Intel themselves: "Tantalum, tin, tungsten, and gold are referred to as conflict minerals.1 They are integral to the technology and other things we rely on every day: from laptops, phones, and tablets to cars, airplanes, lighting, and jewelry. Militias and rebel groups in eastern Congo, funded by the sale of these minerals, have killed over 5 million people since 1998." (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/corporate-responsibility/responsible-minerals.html).

Global supply chains don't happen in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on August 02, 2020, 12:57:36 pm
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/07/star-citizen-dev-offers-roadmap-for-development-of-new-development-roadmap/

This is far too ****ing funny.

Why settle for an uninspiring cookie-cutter roadmap like all the other games? It'll be much better to wait a few months for a roadmap that'll be so damn informative it'll cure corona and **** out prophecies.

And furthermore, Star Citizen is good. Really, really good.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 05, 2020, 10:35:37 am
****, I missed posting here for the 5th anniversary of the July blog.

Still hyped to answer the call 2016.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on August 05, 2020, 12:46:24 pm
(https://i.imgflip.com/4a6ic6.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on August 06, 2020, 06:12:38 am
^Cursed images be like
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on January 12, 2021, 05:58:09 am
So it's been months and I've been tied up with election news but hey look, Squadron 42 beta pushed back to "I dunno"

https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/28/22203055/star-citizen-squadron-42-release-date-beta-delayed-alpha-testing-funding
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 12, 2021, 06:12:12 am
That is shambolic.
I'm got nothing but sympathy for the guys who backed it for Sq42, but nothing but relief for me not backing it when I was on the fence.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mongoose on January 12, 2021, 09:38:23 am
So it's been months and I've been tied up with election news but hey look, Squadron 42 beta pushed back to "I dunno"

https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/28/22203055/star-citizen-squadron-42-release-date-beta-delayed-alpha-testing-funding
It's genuinely comforting that some things remain constant in such a crazy world.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Lorric on January 12, 2021, 10:11:29 am
Will they make a roadmap for the roadmap for the roadmap?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 12, 2021, 10:39:20 am
They already did but you need to be a 5k platinum backer to know about it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 12, 2021, 01:30:45 pm
What's this? Star Citizen news in MY 2021? An announced DELAY?? Delicious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 12, 2021, 04:18:56 pm
Delicious.
Delaycious.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on January 12, 2021, 09:52:53 pm
Will they make a roadmap for the roadmap for the roadmap?

More importantly, did they actually follow the roadmap for the roadmap last time and release a roadmap? Cause it looks like they didn't.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Cobra on January 12, 2021, 10:26:57 pm
What a ****ing joke.

Quote
He also said RSI would not show any of Squadron 42's "gameplay, locations, or assets" in lieu of a beta, because the game is too far from a full launch to begin a marketing campaign. "If we show the non-spoiler gameplay now, that's prime footage and gameplay that could have been used closer to release," Roberts said.
"Because of this I have decided that it is best to not show Squadron 42 gameplay publicly, nor discuss any release date until we are closer to the home stretch and have high confidence in the remaining time needed to finish the game to the quality we want," Roberts added.

"We're not showing any developments of SQ42 because I want to show gameplay footage before we release it."

:rolleyes:

Missed the deadline and removed the deadline from the roadmap to act like it was never there in the ****ing first place. Roberts really should not be left to his own devices. Seriously, what the ****'s even the point of a roadmap if you're not going to ****ing follow the god damn thing?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 13, 2021, 01:24:26 am
He's the trump of video game development.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Luis Dias on January 13, 2021, 08:03:07 am
idk, they could spin all this incompetence and delays as being a "developer friendly workplace" without crunches and all, capitalizing in all the bull**** we've been seeing all over the place.

But somehow, just somehow, I kind of doubt they'd be able to make that claim.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 17, 2021, 12:17:30 pm
Quote
because the game is too far from a full launch to begin a marketing campaign

Since when has that stopped them?

A reminder too - the original kickstarter demo took a year to make and was shown to the public in 2012.

Star Citizen is 10 years old now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 17, 2021, 12:30:11 pm
Remember how at the time, the graphics were Crysis-level beyond what most systems could run? It's taken so long, they look old now.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: BlueFlames on January 17, 2021, 02:30:23 pm
Remember how at the time, the graphics were Crysis-level beyond what most systems could run? It's taken so long, they look old now.

Sounds like it's time to start the engine-swapping phase of development hell.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on January 17, 2021, 02:45:18 pm
CHRIS ROBERTS FOREVER
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Mikes on January 18, 2021, 01:22:04 am
CHRIS ROBERTS FOREVER

Chris Roberts computer game development forever ... literally.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on March 12, 2021, 05:45:14 am
**** the natural disaster! Keep making jpgs or the wheels come off!

https://kotaku.com/star-citizen-developers-fed-up-after-being-expected-to-1846443110
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: The E on March 12, 2021, 06:25:46 am
Quote
Communication, all six sources agreed, was the biggest problem. The week began with an interaction that set the tone: On Monday, sources said, an Austin office manager told employees, many of whom had already lost power, to figure out how to make up for lost work time in the near future—specifically “this week/weekend as a first option,” according to one source. That source said the office manager continued: “Assuming roads are clear we also can manage a few people in the studio. If all else fails then enter PTO for whatever time you cannot make up.”

There are a lot of conversations about working conditions in the games industry, but this is just.... In a normal studio, with deadlines, this would still be assholeish and stupid; getting people to take PTO for times where they physically cannot work is (or rather, should be) a case of wage theft.
For CIG, a company that thinks a deadline is something that chris roberts can snort off a table, it gets an extra dimension of sheer awfulness on top.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 23, 2021, 01:29:43 pm
I just saw Star Citizen mentioned in two separate discords. Is it released or something?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: General Battuta on April 23, 2021, 01:48:25 pm
I just saw Star Citizen mentioned in two separate discords. Is it released or something?

A hearty belly laugh
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 23, 2021, 06:19:02 pm
Indeed!
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Blue Lion on July 12, 2021, 10:21:46 am
Roberts has moved his family and he is going to finish this game. Promise. Super swear. Soon.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/chris-r-move-to-manchester-means-sq42-at-least-two
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 12, 2021, 11:45:25 am
I couldn't read that for more than 5 minutes..... Everyone's so picky/snipey.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on February 05, 2022, 07:41:29 pm
Star Citizen solves problems with its roadmap. Remove the ability to see anything more than 1 junction ahead of you (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/02/star-citizen-devs-scale-back-roadmap-to-avoid-timeline-distractions/)
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on February 05, 2022, 07:59:19 pm
Oh it's still not dead?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on June 21, 2023, 06:33:10 pm
Has there been any news lately on SC/SQ42?

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 21, 2023, 08:10:30 pm
I watched a video about "doomed kickstarter mmos" today that namedropped Star Citizen and mentioned it has been in production for 11 years and was originally due for release in 2014. Other than that, nope.

EDIT: To be fair (and balanced), I've heard from people who play it that it's in a condition to be considered "a game" and is apparently "fun to play", even though it's still in early access.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 24, 2023, 05:19:40 am
I've never backed it l, was only ever interested in the single player story component, and  am glad I never paid into it.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathspeed on June 24, 2023, 10:12:35 am
I've never backed it l, was only ever interested in the single player story component, and  am glad I never paid into it.
This, so much. 

While I would eventually like to see this project succeed (and I don't think it will as long as Chris Roberts is the director), the feature creep has made this sound like even Squadron 42 would not be fun for me.  I play games to be entertained, and have no interest in hyper-realistic simulators.  I''m more Ace Combat than DCS (thank you, Falcon 4.0, for teaching me that lesson).   
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 24, 2023, 05:07:26 pm
Ace Combat is best combat.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Vidmaster on July 16, 2023, 01:50:36 pm
He got 35$ from me. And while his team has not delivered that product, I do feel I have learned very much through watching the making of this game for over ten years...         ...about project management, communication, expectation management and so much more.
I got something worthwhile from my money, although not what I expected. And I had fun with Arena Commander...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: karajorma on October 23, 2023, 05:58:10 am

So they're claiming Squadron 42 is feature complete now. So no idea what excuse they'll use if it's not out in a couple of years.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 24, 2023, 01:44:02 pm
Hearing "Arch-Angel" makes my ears bleed.   

But if my cougar of choice Gillian Anderson is in it, I'll still try it out at some point.


Calling her Sir when she's a ma'am is also cringe.   That's what got me about nuBSG .
Rude of her to not return the salute.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: deathspeed on October 24, 2023, 11:05:52 pm
Obviously I am skeptical that Chris Roberts can keep his hands off this long enough for it to see a release - there will be some feature to be added or wheel to be reinvented or game engine to switch to - but I really would like it to happen.  I have no interest in multiplayer or a persistent universe, so a single player game has my interest. 

Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: ryanchealth on October 27, 2023, 11:15:30 am
 I am a REALLY early backer as my wife paid the $100 back in 2012/2012 for a birthday present.  The requirements listed back then are ancient and clearly would not work for a modern game.  The graphics blow Starfield away and by 3080 ti can barely get 40 FPS at 4K (Pretty high settings). The requirements they have listed are for a 4 GB video card and 16 gb of ram.  What is it going to take to run the game at HIGH settings?
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 27, 2023, 02:54:16 pm
Good point well made.  People buying in good faith that it could run on their planned kit....


Kinda my quandary with HW3.   I'm unsure what specs it needs.   I knew I had the oomph for it's proposed ballpark when I backed.  Goalpost drift may be real :/
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: CT27 on October 27, 2023, 06:00:33 pm
Like others have said here and elsewhere, I'm not crazy about Star Citizen itself and how 'big' it's trying to be.  On the other hand, I care about single player stuff; so if Squadron 42 ever gets officially released I would totally be interested in playing a high quality SP space sim spiritual sequel to Wing Commander.
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Nightmare on October 28, 2023, 05:36:52 pm
Good point well made.  People buying in good faith that it could run on their planned kit....

Oh I wouldn't worry about that. By the time this gets released, everyones gonna have their own quantum computer at home and performance issues will be a thing of the past anyway...
Title: Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 29, 2023, 08:24:54 am
Holodecks