[Dragon]

I heard that Elite:Dangerous is actually pretty grindy. I hate grinding, it was exactly the reason I never got into the X series. Not to mention it's multiplayer-only. Much like Hellion, actually. My main issue with multiplayer games is that they always seem to involve at least some grinding before they start being fun. A properly designed SP game is fun from start to finish.

I don't want epic scale multiplayer with trading, shooting and walking around stations. I want the next Wing Commander. Besides SC, there isn't much coming on that front (I'd settle for the next TIE fighter, but they're not making anything like that, either). If Roberts scrapped the entire multiplayer component and only made Squadron 42, I'd actually applaud him. Star Marine optional (he's never gonna top ArmA on the FPS front, anyway), Bengal carrier definitely not.

[Aesaar]

It is pretty grindy.  Engineers is a very poorly designed mechanic.  I love the game, but I'll never pretend it's perfect.  What it does have is a good base onto which content can be (and is being) added.  The combat in particular is incredibly fun.

Star Citizen doesn't even have that.  None of its mechanics are fun, and none are developed enough for content to be added onto them.  As much as "it isn't a game" sounds like it's just making fun, it's true.  Their entire design process is ****ed because preparing for the next jpeg sale is more important than getting the core mechanics ironed out, because base game mechanics aren't something you can sell for 200$.  Star Citizen is a screenshot generator.

I don't know how much of this is malice and how much is incompetence.  CR has made this much money because he's selling a dream, not a game.  The dream makes more money that the game ever could.  The more the game becomes real, the less citizens are able to project their perfect dream onto it.  As long as it's formless enough that backers can rationalise away the discrepancy between their dream and what they're getting with "it's an alpha", backers will continue to believe it'll be perfect. 

You can see this in this thread, even.  Maslo calls out Elite for having no content as though he knows Star Citizen won't be 'a mile wide but an inch deep', despite the fact that SC has exactly the same problems to solve as Elite content-wise, but with a demonstrably less competent developer.  Because he's judging SC as a dream, and Elite as a game.  He's just too deluded to see the double standard.

[666maslo666]

I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

[Phantom Hoover]

maslo, we've had this conversation before, but have you ever actually seen an aeroplane fly? Because I have, and they spend much less time moving backwards than E:D ships in a dogfight.

[Aesaar]

I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all.

As someone who play realistic WW2 flight sims (which have flight models that are far, far more complex than either ED or SC), no, ED does not have an airplane flight model.  Not even close.  This isn't opinion.  Airplanes can't even physically maneuver the way ED ships do in routine combat.

Though it amuses me that you decry airplane flight models so much, since CR has himself stated on numerous occasions that the main inspiration for fighter combat in his games was meant to be Star Wars, which is directly modeled on airplane dogfights.  SC fails miserably at being anything like that, but I don't think CR even knows what he wants to achieve with dogfights, which is why SC combat is such a giant cluster****.

Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

Not only is it more polished, it's got far more content and is closer to the SC dream than SC is.  Hell, ED, the game originally designed to be 'playing a spaceship', is going to have character customisation before the game pitched as 'playing a pilot'.

[Spoon]

https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne

[Kszyhu]

I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

[Det. Bullock]

I wouldnt say combat in Elite is incredibly fun. It is merely passable. This is a pretty subjective thing, but combat in Elite suffers from their awful aeroplane flight model, which just doesnt appeal to me at all. Star Citizen combat is less polished than Elite, but also more fun and has better potential.

I am judging both of those games equally. SC development is way too slow and I am quite disappointed with SC lately. Yet its not like Elite is much better overall, it is just different and much more polished.

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

If it wasn't for all the dampness interfering with my wi-fi this video would make me do a few rounds in CQC, last time I played there were quite a few "star wars" moments with me blazing through tunnels either chasing or being chased by other players.

[The E]

https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne

In a recent email to backers, Star Citizen's lead Designer Chris Roberts had unexpected news: "Yeah, we got together with a few EA guys, and we decided that what Star Citizen really should be, at this point, is a Dead Space sequel. Makes sense, if you think about it."
The Star Citizen community is reportedly excited about these news. Commenters on reddit's Star Citizen subreddit have started an impromptu celebration consisting of sending money orders to CIG.

[Phantom Hoover]

The crazy thing is that given the current state of /r/starcitizen there'd be a good chance of actual criticism getting posted.

[BlueFlames]

https://gfycat.com/UnselfishNearHalicore
https://gfycat.com/ClumsyBlindErne

You know what?  Those eyes are stable.

Also....

I am judging both of those games equally.

Best line of the thread.  Top keks.  That vaporware is totally comparable to this released product.

[Dragon]

Well, you can compare flight physics already. I can see why some people can have preference for one style or the other. Though calling Elite's flight model "airplane" is a bit nonspecific, since almost all spacesims follow the "airplanes in space" paradigm to some degree (they're not remotely close to actual airplanes, but since Diaspora was described like that, it doesn't seem to matter much). "Realistic" newtonian flight model is so different from the usual experience that games using it are few and far between (I-War 1 and 2, Evochron Mercenary and B5: I've Found Her are the only examples I can think of).

I don't know how much of this is malice and how much is incompetence.

One look will tell you that it's incompetence all the way through. I see Star Citizen as an awesome game being developed by a team which is not up to the task of making games. I could see a large studio like Bohemia Interactive pulling something like that off (they have lots of experience with both multiplayer and large-scale worlds, though they don't make MMOs) or Egosoft, but not Roberts' motley crew. Even at the start I was concerned that they promised a much better game than they're capable of actually making. With that kind of money you can do everything... just remember that there are far more ways to fail than to succeed.

[AdmiralRalwood]

or Egosoft

Egosoft have been trying and failing to make this game for decades, so I don't know why you'd trust them to get it right.

And I say that as a fan of the X series.

[Dragon]

They'd still be more likely to get it right than CIG. After all, they've been trying for a decade, and the games that came out of it were pretty fun (though too slow paced for my liking). It's not like there's anyone else with a lot of experience in this kind of games. Perhaps with a "continuous development" style model an an extended early access phase (and actually listening to the player feedback), they'd eventually be able to make something approaching Roberts' vision.

Then again, my only contact with X:Rebirth was a few times I've seen my father playing it, so my opinion of them is mostly based on X3:TC.

[Mikes]

They'd still be more likely to get it right than CIG. After all, they've been trying for a decade, and the games that came out of it were pretty fun (though too slow paced for my liking). It's not like there's anyone else with a lot of experience in this kind of games. Perhaps with a "continuous development" style model an an extended early access phase (and actually listening to the player feedback), they'd eventually be able to make something approaching Roberts' vision.

Then again, my only contact with X:Rebirth was a few times I've seen my father playing it, so my opinion of them is mostly based on X3:TC.

Egosoft has the right general idea, but they convinced me thoroughly that they lack the skills to make any kind of game that would actually excel in it's "gameplay".

There's little doubt that the next game won't again be a hodge podge of interesting systems that all don't really work all that well by themselves and don't mesh well either.

It's sad sort of ... but just how it is. Egosoft would need a complete change in development direction and possible a huge influx of talent to turn things around and none of that is happening ... instead they keep making pretty much "more of the same" with prettier graphics. Occasionally further showcasing their utter lack of ignorance by not even understanding the few things that actually are fun in their games (like X2/X3) by cutting most of them out in a sequel. (Rebirth.)

So no, if Egosoft is our last hope now then I'll rather say goodbye to spacesims again and play something else. Or rather, I'll play FSO and it's new campaigns again which still makes for a better Spacesim than anything commcercially released in the decade. - And frankly ... I don't expect that to change when SC is released either ... Roberts stands for ultra flashy graphics and yes, cinematic, but always pretty shallow story.

From the impression the writing snips on their page make:
Best case SQ42 will come with ultra flashy graphics, ok gameplay and meh story. Worst case ... well you know. ;-)

[Dragon]

I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

[Sushi]

I'd love to see an airplane flying like that: https://youtu.be/pmmfFSIGcnc?t=580

Hah! That's my vid!

I think an important fact that both Elite and SC (and presumable Hellion or whatever else) need to confront is that the mechanics it takes to make an interesting first-person game set on a spaceship (where you can move around, EVA, etc) are wildly different from what it takes to make an interesting spaceship combat game. Especially if you're trying to do so in an open-world / multiplayer environment... if you're doing single-player, you can basically have two games at once with carefully controlled interactions between them.

[Det. Bullock]

I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

For what I know at least 2 had very few contrbutions from him, in fact in 3 he decided to dump in some of the most interesting parts of that story.

IV too had less contributions from him I hear.

[Torchwood]

I don't know what to expect from SQ42 or its story, but I hope that at least the characters will be memorable. Wing Commander was always best remembered for its colorful cast. Roberts can write a good, deep story (WC2, WC4, Freelancer could have been one if it wasn't cut so short), but he's not consistent with that. As long as the game is playable and sufficiently Wing Commander-y, I'll go for it.

As for Egosoft, well, I say that they'd have a better chance of pulling something like SC off, not that they'd certainly do so. Yeah, if they haven't learned anything from Rebirth fiasco, X is unlikely to have another X3-like success anytime soon.

For what I know at least 2 had very few contrbutions from him, in fact in 3 he decided to dump in some of the most interesting parts of that story.

IV too had less contributions from him I hear.

!!!Spoilers ahead, you have been warned!!!



Wing Commander 1 is an assortment of caricatures of people. If you look back at the dialogue, half the characters are a bunch of national stereotypes blended into a person. If tumblr could see them, the controversy would surely be enough to revive the old game for a while.
2 is better, they've gotten writers on board who managed to make some compelling personal stories. Can't recall who exactly, but His Loafiness once said this is a woman's touch at work. 2 is where Wing Commander got a trend towards humanizing friend and foe alike, away from Black vs. White. This is where we are introduced* to some blurred fronts (i.e. alien defectors, human traitors), a deicison Chris Roberts did not agree with.
The main reason the betrayal scene exists in 3 is because Chris Roberts wanted it to be there. He did not want you to buddy-buddy with an alien, so he shoehorned in the sleeper agent angle.
The novel writers largely support the black-and-white angle. Forstchen leans conservative, to a degree that he sincerely thinks Tolwyn is a sympathetic character, even when he want off the rocker in the WCIV story, the one that can be summed up as "Luke Skywalker vs. the Space Nazi Cabal".

*A few Kilrathi defectors existed in Wing Commander 1 brought to you by the hardest Kurosawa mission in the game, but their role is marginal compared to the Wing Commander 2 story, where one expansion pack revolves entirely around the human traitors. In the black-and-white view, the only good alien is either dead or thorouhgly subjugated, the way it is in IV and the Prophecy story.

[Buckshee Rounds]

So no, if Egosoft is our last hope now then I'll rather say goodbye to spacesims again and play something else. Or rather, I'll play FSO and it's new campaigns again which still makes for a better Spacesim than anything commcercially released in the decade. - And frankly ... I don't expect that to change when SC is released either ... Roberts stands for ultra flashy graphics and yes, cinematic, but always pretty shallow story.

QFT. I'd like to get into E:D, but the grindiness puts me off. I find myself going back to Diaspora every now and then for want of anything that's anywhere near as fun.

In all honesty I find Freespace' story far more compelling than WC or anything similar and that series almost completely lacks for named characters. I tried to play WC back in 2004 but I found it to be a bit cheesy and dated. I've played more WC:Saga than WC itself.