[The E]

For those of you living under a rock, about a year ago, journalist Anita Sarkeesian made a kickstarter to fund a series of videos to examine examples of casual and pervasive misogynism in games.

The internet promptly exploded, with gamers rising up to claim that no such problem exists, and if it existed (which it doesn't, don'tchaknow?), it's not that bad, and even if it were that bad (which it isn't, because IT'S NOT EXISTING, DIDN'T YOU LISTEN?), it's not like it would do much damage, cos it's just games, right? Right?

Hatemail was written, sites were DDOSed, games about punching Ms Sarkeesian in the face were made, and then the internet kinda forgot about it all. Ms Sarkeesian gave a TEDtalk about her experiences as being on the receiving end of the Internet hate machine.

Now, the series has started to be broadcast on youtube, starting off with an examination of the various ways in which the old "Damsel in Distress" plot device is used, and what kind of (in most cases hopefully unintended) message it sends.

Now, while I personally would have liked her to go more in depth in specific games, or on the topic in general, these videos are still very nice primer material to get one started on these topics.

They've also once again drawn out the very worst comments ever seen on the internet, with the second video having been flagged as hate speech on youtube (which was then subject to an automated takedown, but has since been restored), Ms Sarkeesian drawing fire for disallowing comments on the yt page, and various pieces of metacommentary about how bvad these things are, how wrong Ms Sarkeesian is, and HOW THAT WOMAN SHOULD LEARN HER PLACE AND GET BACK TO THE KITCHEN!

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[Dragon]

Strangely, if anything, I actually noticed less misogynism in games than in other genres. In many cases, you can play as a woman just as well as a man (funnily enough, I do so frequently in games like TES and it's ilk, because I like their stat bonuses better ). In many cases, the protagonist is completely faceless and genderless, and you can't really blame military shooters for featuring a male protagonist (though now that women are allowed into combat in the US military, I'd really like to see a subversion of that trend). This might be the kind of games I play, but "Damsel in Distress" seems to be rarely used completely straight. Then there's the subject of fanservice, which still is primarily aimed at males, but this is prevalent across every genres, save those specifically aimed at women.

Regarding the reactions on the internet, I think that this proves there's no problem with misogynism in games, but there might be such problem with (some of the) people who play those games.

[NGTM-1R]

This is the best primer available, but I hesitate to call it good.

I don't doubt the problems exist, I've seen them, but I have reservations about both the presentation (shallow level of analysis, sometimes incorrect details, odd selection methodology or lack thereof)  and the presenter (I've seen some lucid commentary on donations that worries me) here.

As not everyone has a wife who'll offer unsolicited commentary on how bad the TOR romances are from a feminist viewpoint _{and yet hilarious} then this is probably a decent place to start.

[BritishShivans]

Did you have to post this godawful video video? But whatever, I'll be serious now. The thing is, Anita Sarkeesian is a ****wit. Instead of trying to actually go and do something about sexism in video games, Anita chooses to parrot the same ****ing thing people have been saying for years.

But the funny thing is, you see,  is that the developers of video games aren't sexist; (usually aren't, some are unfortunately are) They're just incapable of making a decent female character, because most of them are ignorant of what women are really like, due to many development studios being primarily male-dominated. The sexism, in the sense of discrimination, however comes from the annoying horde of often both racist and sexist dudebros (of whom by the way should be involuntarily sterilized so that they may never reproduce) who unfortunately play these video games.

While I would like to elaborate on this further, there's not really much more I can say other than that this problem has been incredibly ****ing obvious for years, and that rather than blabbering on about it like Anita apparently loves to do, people who want this to go should actually do something about this, instead of again, blabbering on about it.

In short, I shall state my point in bold letters:

STOP ****ING COMPLAINING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES BEING SEXIST AND ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, YOU ****WITS. IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY JUST BECAUSE YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT IT A LOT. YOU ARE AS MUCH TO BLAME AS FOR THE SEXISM AS THE OTHER SIDE IS, DUE TO YOUR INACTION.

There. I'm not going to bother responding to replies to my post until later, as I have had a enough of a stressful ****ing day as it is.

[The E]

Did you have to post this godawful video video?

Going by yours and Dragon's response, yes, I did.

EDIT:

I probably should elaborate.

Strangely, if anything, I actually noticed less misogynism in games than in other genres. In many cases, you can play as a woman just as well as a man (funnily enough, I do so frequently in games like TES and it's ilk, because I like their stat bonuses better ). In many cases, the protagonist is completely faceless and genderless, and you can't really blame military shooters for featuring a male protagonist (though now that women are allowed into combat in the US military, I'd really like to see a subversion of that trend). This might be the kind of games I play, but "Damsel in Distress" seems to be rarely used completely straight. Then there's the subject of fanservice, which still is primarily aimed at males, but this is prevalent across every genres, save those specifically aimed at women.

Regarding the reactions on the internet, I think that this proves there's no problem with misogynism in games, but there might be such problem with (some of the) people who play those games.

Okay, so because you're not seeing implementations of the trope in your chosen genres, the trope does not matter? Tell me again how that is relevant to the point being made in the video, cos I don't see it.
I mean, if you'd actually listened to what was being said, you might have even understood why the unreflected use of this is a problem.

BritishShivans:

Thank you for providing a prime example of the kind of hilariously bad comments these videos get. Do note that using all caps and large fonts and swearwords does not actually improve your arguments. You talk about how "people should do something about this", and how they're supposed to stop whining and start doing, but I submit to you that examining these issues is a necessary first step. Ms Sarkeesian is not a game designer or game writer; as such, her ability to influence these things directly is limited to making people aware of these things and offering alternate solutions (as she does, in her capacity as a speaker at gaming conferences and as a consultant for game developers).

[Herra Tohtori]

Sexism is sexism whether it's by ignorance or by choice. That's exactly why it's a good thing at least someone is trying to analyze this stuff. I haven't familiarized myself with Sarkeesian's work sufficiently to have an educated opinion on the quality of the work (much less her motivations or cognitive abilities like some in this thread) but I for one applaud the effort.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that game developers are predominantly male and predominantly not sexist by choice. Don't you think it would improve their creative process to be aware of some of the tropes they've been using, whether consciously or unconsciously?


Lastly, saying that games being sexist is partly due to inaction by Sarkeesian personally (rather than female gender in general) is like saying a historian is responsible for the actions of historical figures.

And even saying that female gender is complicit to sexism in video game industry because of their inaction or lack of participation in game development or game industry in general is... dubious. Male-dominated vocations are not often appealing or even easily accessible to females... because of either open or underlying sexist attitudes.

Which is sort of why this thread exists in the first place.

[zookeeper]

Sexism is sexism whether it's by ignorance or by choice. That's exactly why it's a good thing at least someone is trying to analyze this stuff. I haven't familiarized myself with Sarkeesian's work sufficiently to have an educated opinion on the quality of the work (much less her motivations or cognitive abilities like some in this thread) but I for one applaud the effort.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that game developers are predominantly male and predominantly not sexist by choice. Don't you think it would improve their creative process to be aware of some of the tropes they've been using, whether consciously or unconsciously?

This seems to be exactly what a lot of people seem to be overlooking. There's a lot of things (in games and otherwise) that I might not otherwise recognize as having a sexist vibe, so even shallow analysis and examples is interesting enough to me. I wouldn't want to write/design/make something sexist, but that's not because I want to be politically correct or because I want to avoid offending someone, but simply because 1) I'd rather make something that holds an appeal to both sexes and genders and 2) because good female characters and games which appeal to women are much more rare so I find them to be a much more interesting goal.

To me it's pretty irrelevant whether or not misogynism in games or other media is conscious or unconscious; it still narrows the audience and excludes people for no good reason, so I want to be aware of it so I can try to avoid it.

[Dragon]

Okay, so because you're not seeing implementations of the trope in your chosen genres, the trope does not matter? Tell me again how that is relevant to the point being made in the video, cos I don't see it.
I mean, if you'd actually listened to what was being said, you might have even understood why the unreflected use of this is a problem.

TBH, I wasn't really addressing the video at all, but rather the problem of misogynism in games. It's not that this trope doesn't matter, it's that I haven't seen it. By "this might be the kind of games I play", I meant that I don't usually play those small, casual games nor overpriced "big titles" like Halo, CoD or BF. Also, I have no experience with consoles, so I'm only speaking for PC titles. Yes, my point is not really related to this video, save for the fact my point addresses the same issue she's been researching (TBH, I added the last line partly because I realized that I'm not saying anything actually on-topic ).

[Gray113]

No matter what you do, no matter what you say someone is going to get offended somewhere. Personally I think that these days games are a reflection of the market and the demographics that risk averse publishers are selling to.

This is where I have hopes for kickstarter as a platform for allowing for new ideas and concepts to spring up. Hopefully Female games developers will be able to tap into the obvious discontent that some people have towards sexism in gaming to raise funds for their own ideas and developments, maybe making publishers more likely to notice the alternative opportunities that exist. Some Female developers are already doing this - a case in point being Redshirt http://www.redshirtgame.com/. A game developed by a woman that has all the sci-fi elements to attract the geek in me but is also designed as a social interaction game that appeals to some of the girls I know.

I think things not only can change but are changing as platforms become more accessable and gaming moves away from the "creepy guy in a corner staring at a screen image" that has stuck for so long with gamers. As much as I dislike smartphones and Tablet devices these are allowing people who did not see themselves as gamers before a chance to get in to the fun aspects of this hobby and with this will come a demand for different types of games.

[Dragon]

Yeah, market forces are probably the best explanation. While there are big name titles marketed for women (The Sims) and MMOs attract quite a few women thanks to the social aspect, most games are still centered around action of some kind and mostly targeted at men. This is more subtle than outright sexism, but the bias is still there.
Also, I noticed that she all but named 4Chan as the "homebase" of this hate campaign. This wouldn't be the first time they did something like that, I don't think this is really a group representing internet as a whole.

Interestingly enough, I noticed that on ArmA series forums (a military simulator, with women only appearing as civilians), not only there's very little misogyny, but there's a large group of people advocating introducing female units to the game, with equal functionality to males. Sure, it's just a single community, but I believe that an average gamer has no problem with women, it's just those who do are a very, very loud minority. Well, that, and that 4Chan crowd is a bunch of sheepish trolls willing to go with anything, the more offensive the better. This is hardly the first time 30 year olds acted like 10 year olds just because they're anonymous.

[MatthTheGeek]

This whole subject falls in the "humanity is unsalvageably stupid, Will Not Fix" category as far as I'm concerned.

I think there are more critical matters to fight for.

[ssmit132]

I've never watched Anita Sarkeesian's video in question myself, but I did watch ThatOneVideoGamer's video which concerned them and the controversy they got.  I'm listening through it again now, but I'm not sure which points from it I should bring up.

One of the things I do think is relevant is the mention of Japanese values being different to those in Western cultures in regards to women, and that causing problems in things like Metroid: Other M (which I haven't played but I've certainly heard about the controversy with that one). But, coming off that, I think a valid point is that any misogyny in games would hardly be constricted to that medium. Sure, maybe it's a case of video games playing catch up, but there's still problems that need to be solved in society at large in terms of gender equality, and that would be reflected in video games, certainly, but also in any other form of media. Honestly, though, while I've played games a lot, I don't have a huge library of games, and a lot of those have been games that don't really have characters as such, like the older Need For Speed games, tycoon games, and that sort of thing, so I don't have a lot of experience with female characterisation in games, at least until the last couple of years.

Also, in regards to the "Damsel in Distress" thing, there's something at the tail end of ThatOneVideoGamer's video (about 45 minutes) that I think is a decent point too - is it bad that there's some games where a female character has to be saved by a male one? That would certainly be a problem if it was exclusively "the helpless woman needs to be saved by the badass guy" or something, but that doesn't mean that no video game plot at all should involve a woman that needs to be rescued for whatever reason. I mean, it's certainly good that there are plenty of badass, or otherwise strong, women in video games, but that doesn't mean that every woman in a video game has to be able to beat everyone up, or not cry, or not wear a fancy dress, etc.

But I do agree with Herra and zookeeper here, that it doesn't mean that there aren't issues that need to be raised, and it's easy to be sexist (or any type of prejudiced, in fact) without meaning to even if you aren't consciously sexist. I'd also like to agree with zookeeper's point that I to would like to know how to write/design/make something while avoiding being sexist (and I am currently seriously toying around with story ideas of my own), just to ensure that I can make something that doesn't alienate any of the potential audience.

Maybe I should watch Anita Sarkeesian's video in the future, but hopefully I've said something relevant here.

EDIT: Also, since I was deliberating on posting this and Dragon's new post came up:

but I believe that an average gamer has no problem with women

The reaction that Other M (which I mentioned before) got lends credence to the fact that a lot of males who play games aren't (deliberately) sexist as there was a lot of vitrol regarding Samus' characterisation.

[Phantom Hoover]

This whole subject falls in the "humanity is unsalvageably stupid, Will Not Fix" category as far as I'm concerned.

I think there are more critical matters to fight for.

hey matth someone mentioned you in a song

[Dilmah G]

This whole subject falls in the "humanity is unsalvageably stupid, Will Not Fix" category as far as I'm concerned.

I think there are more critical matters to fight for.

hey matth someone mentioned you in a song

Brilliant execution, sir.

[Wobble73]

Sexism in computer games, I can think of 2 straight of the bat, Duke Nukem and GTA!

[Dilmah G]

Not to derail the thread, but at least in GTA it was satirical.

[Phantom Hoover]

and in duke nukem it was initially satirical, but then that got lost somewhere in the cluster**** that was DNF's development

[Spoon]

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had

That doesn't mean Nilin's sex wasn't on other people's minds, though. By the time Remember Me was shown to prospective publishers, it was too late to change Nilin from a woman to a man, and this was enough to cause potential backers to abstain from publishing the game. “We had some that said, 'Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that,'” Moris told the Report.

Even if Moris had changed Nilin to be male, that solution produced its own drama. “We wanted to be able to tease on Nilin's private life, and that means for instance, at one point, we wanted a scene where she was kissing a guy,” Moris said. “We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.'”

Publishers are the worse part of the game industry.

[Killer Whale]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBG2Dtpmk

[Rodo]

idk, games are mainly targeted at male figures as I see it, which naturally seem far more attracted to those stereotypes than to any other kind of stereotype for woman. so... good luck changing that.
As for the harassment, well the internet is filled with bastards and allows them to move freely so this is kinda expected for anyone trying to make a point or change something so widespread.