[Lorric]

I've watched a few of her other videos. She occasionally hits on something but mostly it's dogma at best and poison at worst. Trying to brainwash people, tell them what to think and how to think, and clearly it's succeeding unfortunately. I bet if she opened up the like/dislike function on her videos many of them would be thumbed down into oblivion where they belong, so of course she doesn't.

Men shouldn't be taken in or guilted by it and women need to find a better role model who isn't so one dimensional in her thinking to fight in their corner. Her rhetoric is very damaging for both sexes.

[AdmiralRalwood]

And it is important that normal feminist is in the spotlight for a change, not only the man-hating ones that sadly attract the most attention.

I'm sorry, can you provide a definition for "man-hating feminist" that isn't self-contradictory?

[Zacam]

... Should I move this over to General Discussion as a disinfection move for this board?

Cause it really seems like it belongs there now.

[General Battuta]

Barring Lorric posts it hasn't been that bad, and it is about a series of videos re: gaming.

[MatthTheGeek]

... Should I move this over to General Discussion as a disinfection move for this board?

Cause it really seems like it belongs there now.

Thank you.

I've been saying this from the beginning, but always been told "lol no it's about gaming".

It's not what it's about, it's about how people behave in it.

[666maslo666]

And it is important that normal feminist is in the spotlight for a change, not only the man-hating ones that sadly attract the most attention.

I'm sorry, can you provide a definition for "man-hating feminist" that isn't self-contradictory?

I probably cannot, they are walking contradictions. But you know the type. As far as I remember, last time (self-proclaimed) feminism was in mainstream media, they were trying to ban porn. My point is that this series can help to show the sane side of feminism to non-feminists, and that is important. Particularly after all the controversy, if someone actually looks at the video, then he will realize its not that bad at all.

[Luis Dias]

I don't think the "internet" will behave remotely near your wishes... just watch thunderf00t's reaction to it, for example. Or many others, whom I regarded as having an inch of brain and so on.

My own reaction to the videos is more on the order of "Damn, how I wished they wrote better women in games". The great thing about Mass Effect was how people reacted to Shepard in the *exact* same manner, be Shepard a woman or a man. Yes, I know, that's the byproduct of a limitation, but I cherish that, only because I have that nagging feeling that had Shepard been designed as a "woman" from the get-go, it would be astronomically bad. As it is, everyone else just assumes that Shepard is a bad ass, and treats the Specter as a specter, irrespectively of whether it's a man or a woman.

It was a novel experience to me, and I'm sure many people played Mass Effect as "Jane" precisely because of this.

But that's just not good enough. I wish for an actually well written *woman*, not a well written character that had the *possibility* of being a woman, etc.

[Lorric]

I don't think the "internet" will behave remotely near your wishes... just watch thunderf00t's reaction to it, for example. Or many others, whom I regarded as having an inch of brain and so on.

My own reaction to the videos is more on the order of "Damn, how I wished they wrote better women in games". The great thing about Mass Effect was how people reacted to Shepard in the *exact* same manner, be Shepard a woman or a man. Yes, I know, that's the byproduct of a limitation, but I cherish that, only because I have that nagging feeling that had Shepard been designed as a "woman" from the get-go, it would be astronomically bad. As it is, everyone else just assumes that Shepard is a bad ass, and treats the Specter as a specter, irrespectively of whether it's a man or a woman.

It was a novel experience to me, and I'm sure many people played Mass Effect as "Jane" precisely because of this.

But that's just not good enough. I wish for an actually well written *woman*, not a well written character that had the *possibility* of being a woman, etc.

I thought I'd get a look at that. I liked most of it. Here it is if anyone else wants to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I

EDIT: There's a part 2. I haven't seen this one yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_461680&feature=iv&src_vid=QJeX6F-Q63I&v=aGAvjwQPCHE

[NGTM-1R]

It's not what it's about, it's about how people behave in it.

As you should probably have learned from numerous ugly derails about Sword of the Stars, this is 100% false.

But you know the type.

No, I don't. Social-commentary wise I genuinely do not. Maybe if you were talking about bad fantasy authors.

[Luis Dias]

I thought I'd get a look at that. I liked most of it.

The fundamental problem with thunderf00t's analysis is that he argues there are no "issues" here because games are made "to make a profit".

What thunderf00t misrepresents here is that he thinks it's all a big paranoia about a conspiracy theory where the giant "patriarchy" cartel tries to subjugate women, when in fact it's just capitalism trying to turn a profit (and what's wrong in that?).

But this wasn't discussed anywhere. It's a strawman. What she tries to argue is that there are tropes which are the most common in many, if not most, AAA games, without majorly discussing the reasons why. IOW, she's pointing out that there are problems here, as shown by sheer number of cases depicted. Elsewhere she makes it blatantly obvious she thinks the problem runs deep in our culture, that, IOW, it's ideology working without us being aware or conscious about it. There is no conspiracy ideation here.

Yes, there are counter examples (what a relief). But they function mostly as exceptions to the rules, not as evidence that the case is bollocks. It isn't bollocks, and seeing men mansplaining to women that there's nothing wrong in our culture from a feminist point of view, that it's all bollocks and so on is really, really sad.

[MatthTheGeek]

As you should probably have learned from numerous ugly derails about Sword of the Stars, this is 100% false.

What, because there has been derails before makes it ok to have derails now ? Bull****.

[Luis Dias]

Stop derailing, Matth.

[NGTM-1R]

What, because there has been derails before makes it ok to have derails now ? Bull****.

You do realize I was quoting a post there? (A post you wrote!) One arguing that behavior determines if something goes to gendisc?

Are you blatantly changing out your argument here from "bad behavior means it moves" to "derails mean it moves" or are you failing to realize I provided an example of bad behavior about games  doesn't mean things move?

I liked most of it.

Given that it blatantly misses the point of these videos, and we've explained the point of these several times to you and you have claimed to understand, why?

[AdmiralRalwood]

But you know the type.

No, I don't. Social-commentary wise I genuinely do not. Maybe if you were talking about bad fantasy authors.

Yeah, I really don't "know the type" either; I was hoping you would elaborate, 666maslo666.

[General Battuta]

People like to call feminists like Andrea Dworkin man-hating.

[karajorma]

I think when people talk about man-hating feminists, they are talking more about this sort of thing.

Yes it's proof of the fact that there is no cause so right that you won't find an idiot following it rather than proof of "What feminism is really about" like some people claim, but there are people dragging down the cause they profess to have with this kind of drivel and it's silly to deny they exist.

[blowfish]

I'm pretty sure that the actual significance of those types of people in feminism is very much exaggerated.  They aren't common and their views aren't really accepted by anyone but themselves.

[karajorma]

I can't say I disagree with that. But there is a very vocal lunatic fringe to feminism who make stupid pronouncements such as "All men are rapists!", etc.

It's similar to the way that there is a very vocal lunatic fringe to Christianity. Claiming Westborough Baptist is representative of mainstream Christianity is stupid, but claiming they don't exist at all is the same kind of stupid as claiming that there is no such thing as the man-hating feminist.

[Flipside]

She managed to squeeze eight pages of discussion from this board alone

The thing is, she's right in what she says, but then, in stories, everything is a caricature, not all scientists wear white coats and talk like Brains from Thunderbirds, not all soldiers have an IQ that seems to alternate from 'Hur-Hur he said "penetrate"' to 'I'm relabrating the Nanotech fibres now.. with my teeth!', often in the same soldier.

She's also right that it is the trope that is the problem, the 'maiden in distress' is one of the oldest, most deeply ingrained tropes out there, that'll take a lot to shift.

Thing is, if you take feminism in isolation it is dangerous, much as if you take masculinism in isolation, it suggests that we are not two sides of the same coin, it's easy and accurate to say that women don't want to feel like victims, but all it feels to me is that she's sitting in front of a camera saying 'This is wrong, that is wrong', and making no real attempt to identify the cause beyond the assumption that it is because men are doing it.

[Polpolion]

Thing is, if you take feminism in isolation it is dangerous, much as if you take masculinism in isolation, it suggests that we are not two sides of the same coin, it's easy and accurate to say that women don't want to feel like victims, but all it feels to me is that she's sitting in front of a camera saying 'This is wrong, that is wrong', and making no real attempt to identify the cause beyond the assumption that it is because men are doing it.

This, I feel, is part of why so many people reacted so poorly to the videos. How do you expect people to react when you do nothing but criticize some of their favorite things? Pointing out problems is good and all, and obviously I don't think this justifies any of the abuse she received, but if she wants to do any convincing of people that wouldn't agree anyway she'll need to rethink how she approaches the issue.