[Phantom Hoover]

At this stage we have an attention-whoring wingnut troll (Nakura) and an eternally-oblivious idiot boy (Lorric) making it functionally impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion on GD without a massive, all-consuming derail, and there has been no visible response from the mods, at all. What the hell were those 'sweeping changes' for, then? Wasn't the overwhelming consensus from the community to weed out problem users proactively, rather than letting them trash the boards first?

[Black Wolf]

No. That was what some people wanted. It wasn't what was decided. Both Lorric and Nakura have been spoken to and are being monitored. Further action will be taken as appropriate.

I'd also suggest that people who live in fragile houses should be careful about their choice of throwing implements. Your name has come up more than once on reports - if we were "weeding out problem users proactively" based purely on "consensus from the community", there's a fair chance you yourself would have been on the receiving end of a lot more admin/mod attention.

[NGTM-1R]

For that matter, we had at least a strong consensus among users and including a number of the global mods that the "Changes to the way HLP is moderated" were counterproductive, did not address the problems of the forum, and were likely to be exactly what everyone who was saying "we can't ban more" (when it was never actually an outcome desired or offered) in the ensuing thread was apparently worried about driving users away.

Also, none of the changes to public moderation it describes ever took place.

It's still stickied as though it matters.

We're still running business as if that post and the resulting thread that built a consensus Phantom's talking about never happened. I am admittedly not surprised, as I expressed my belief that would happen in the thread Phantom refers to, but I am nonetheless disheartened that not only was the community and much of the moderation structure openly ignored by keeping the Changes up, but the Changes weren't even applied.

EDIT: Also classy Black Wolf, threaten people.

[Black Wolf]

EDIT: Also classy Black Wolf, threaten people.

It's not a threat, it's just an expression of my perspective, which is that Phantom Hoover is agitating for greater moderation despite the fact that he himself would be a valid target for such moderation in many cases. He may not realize that because of the tolerant way we treat a lot of minor (but reported) infractions, but the comment stands.

Anyway, the statement from above that also stands. Nakura has been spoken to. The newest thread came about after that, and we'll take it into account in deciding what (if anything) we should do. But I don't think it's appropriate to drag anyone's potential future moderation through the mud in a public space.

[NGTM-1R]

It's not a threat, it's just an expression of my perspective, which is that Phantom Hoover is agitating for greater moderation despite the fact that he himself would be a valid target for such moderation in many cases.

"Don't ask for more moderation or you'll probably get moderated too."

You're an intelligent man. You know how that will read to an observer. Your rephrasing it doesn't read any better. (And that hardly absolves the administration from the Second Grand Lorric Fiasco About Understanding Government.)

[Mongoose]

Did you guys ever stop and think that, hey, if some dude's posting stuff that I find really annoying, maybe I should just ignore it, and not actively contribute to any sort of huge derail mess?  Yes, there are certain users who have certain ongoing issues, and there is activity going on with each of them, but there are also certain regulars who seem determined to make every situation that those users create about five times worse.  If you see a crappy thread or a troublesome post, report it and move on.  Don't start some pointless back-and-forth with the user that you absolutely know will devolve into some level of bull****.  I don't think this is a difficult concept to understand.

[NGTM-1R]

...you're basically arguing we should allow GenDisc to become a cesspool of ignorance and trolling without making even a token attempt to rebut any kind of falsehood or ignorance, and thus remove a major source of people coming to the forum still and the possibility of intelligent discussion, as well as possibly causing the GenDisc forum to get nuked in the next periodic effort at reform (since that's been suggested in almost every single one of them) and thus removing the possibility of the situation getting better.

I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't think that should happen.

I'm appalled you think it's reasonable course of action.

[Mongoose]

If nothing else, it's nice to know that the art of the hyperbole is still alive and well.

Let me rephrase this in terms that you'll perhaps find more agreeable: if you choose to engage a certain type of poster with the full knowledge that doing so will lead to a lengthy derail, you don't then get to complain when said derail occurs.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  Either engage with them and accept the inevitable consequences, or else make a report and let action be taken.  There's something extremely disingenuous when I see reports coming in from people who were instrumental in getting a thread to that point in the first place.

[haloboy100]

...you're basically arguing we should allow GenDisc to become a cesspool of ignorance and trolling without making even a token attempt to rebut any kind of falsehood or ignorance, and thus remove a major source of people coming to the forum still and the possibility of intelligent discussion, as well as possibly causing the GenDisc forum to get nuked in the next periodic effort at reform (since that's been suggested in almost every single one of them) and thus removing the possibility of the situation getting better.

No matter what you think the consensus opinion is, that is not necessarily what GenDisc has become. I, for one, do not find that to be anywhere near the case. There are disruptive users and posts happening, but the threads still contain discussion that is intelligible, if at times ignorant and bigoted.

The grand majority of this alleged ignorance and trolling is from a handful of users. I don't think it's come to the point that they need to be banned or something yet. They are still making contributions to threads that are rational - no matter how ignorant or loaded their statements may be.

[NGTM-1R]

Either engage with them and accept the inevitable consequences

They're not inevitable. These people can and should be changed because discussion with with them inevitably becomes disruptive, and that is a problem with them, not with the people who discuss with them, not with the discussion. (I can't believe I'm explaining this again, after having to do so about Trashman.) You have the power to do something, to make GenDisc less of a mess. You have been strongly urged to do something. The last thread was all about a consensus to do something.

We've done all we can by reporting and trying to educate the people in question. There is more to be done, but you have to do it. If you don't want to do something about it, just say so. (You will lose your right to complain, of course, when threads go off-course because other people do something when you do not wish to.)

And don't complain we're trying to do what we are able to do by talking to these people and trying to convince them why they're causing trouble, which is a cycle we've gone through with Lorric three times at minimum. Okay, maybe you don't want to do anything, it'd be nice if you'd say that already, but don't ***** at us for trying all the methods of recourse we have from explanation to the offender to reporting the posts when it seems like nobody on the moderation side gives a damn and takes no public action while the problem just goes on and on. Nobody is acting to fix it that MP-Ryan or redsniper or Starslayer can tell (to take the latest Nakura thread as an example), so you expect the average user, with years invested here and quite liking the place, not to take some action on their own to try and explain what's going on and why it's bad when they see something bad happen and nobody does something about it.

If you want threads to stop derailing, stop leaving them to derail. If you want users to stop taking action themselves because the moderation doesn't seem to be doing so, take action and do so visibly. We are here because the moderation is not taking action or not doing so in a way the average user can detect. This is a problem of your making.

Don't talk to me about hypocrisy.

[Beskargam]

Actually I think there has been a lot of proactive moderation in terms of what was discussed in the original reform thread. I remember seeing Mongoose in particular wading into threads and saying "cool it" frequently soon after the reform thread came to its conclusion.

The purpose of the proposed proactive moderation was not to "weed out" obnoxious users. The purpose was to correct their behavior and explain why their conduct is unacceptable. If and only If that approach produces no result then they would be banned. That was the idea. You say that Lorric and Nakura are problem-individuals. Lorric is somehwat irritating, but has improved. And according to Black Wolf, action is being decided on in regards to Nakura for ignoring what he was told by mods. This sounds exactly like the proactive moderation that was asked for in the reform thread. It might not be as quick as you like, being the whole idea was that moderation was done in several steps, rather than insta-ban or permanent chaos.

Okay, maybe you don't want to do anything, it'd be nice if you'd say that already, but don't ***** at us for trying all the methods of recourse we have from explanation to the offender to reporting the posts when it seems like nobody on the moderation side gives a damn and takes no public action while the problem just goes on and on without modification.

Seriously? Now this is just insulting.  Do you honestly think that the mod team doesn't care about doing it's job? Give them the respect they deserve and let them go about doing their jobs.


Finally 2 things. First I can't stand to read what Nakura posts, so I ignore them and choose not to read them. If few people respond to the threads that are similar to that nature, then they will sink to the bottom of the page, be ignored, everyone will move on and go out for beer and ice cream.

Lastly, this might just be me, but Gen Disc does not need to be a place where every topic needs to be an argument and that statements need to be taken apart bit by bit to gain an advantage over the other person and so produce a "win". What's the point? I see Gen Disc as a conversation like you would have in person except separated by distance and time. This is not an apt analogy, but less derision and more dialogue of any kind period would be a boon.

[mjn.mixael]

Either engage with them and accept the inevitable consequences

They're not inevitable. These people can and should be changed because discussion with with them inevitably becomes disruptive, and that is a problem with them, not with the people who discuss with them, not with the discussion. (I can't believe I'm explaining this again, after having to do so about Trashman.) You have the power to do something, to make GenDisc less of a mess. You have been strongly urged to do something. The last thread was all about a consensus to do something.

We've done all we can by reporting and trying to educate the people in question. There is more to be done, but you have to do it. If you don't want to do something about it, just say so. (You will lose your right to complain, of course, when threads go off-course because other people do something when you do not wish to.)

And don't complain we're trying to do what we are able to do by talking to these people and trying to convince them why they're causing trouble, which is a cycle we've gone through with Lorric three times at minimum. Okay, maybe you don't want to do anything, it'd be nice if you'd say that already, but don't ***** at us for trying all the methods of recourse we have from explanation to the offender to reporting the posts when it seems like nobody on the moderation side gives a damn and takes no public action while the problem just goes on and on. Nobody is acting to fix it that MP-Ryan or redsniper or Starslayer can tell (to take the latest Nakura thread as an example), so you expect the average user, with years invested here and quite liking the place, not to take some action on their own to try and explain what's going on and why it's bad when they see something bad happen and nobody does something about it.

If you want threads to stop derailing, stop leaving them to derail. If you want users to stop taking action themselves because the moderation doesn't seem to be doing so, take action and do so visibly. We are here because the moderation is not taking action or not doing so in a way the average user can detect. This is a problem of your making.

Don't talk to me about hypocrisy.

I'm sorry, but no. Moderation does not need to be visible to the average user. What, should the Admins copy you on all warning PMs just so you can know it happened?

And did you seriously just try to give a rational explanation for why you keep doing GD's version of feeding the trolls?

This sounds more like complaining because it's not going your way... Either the moderation, discussions or both.

[haloboy100]

Lastly, this might just be me, but Gen Disc does not need to be a place where every topic needs to be an argument and that statements need to be taken apart bit by bit to gain an advantage over the other person and so produce a "win". What's the point? I see Gen Disc as a conversation like you would have in person except separated by distance and time. This is not an apt analogy, but less derision and more dialogue of any kind period would be a boon.

I think that's more of a systemic issue with our user demographic. Many posters here are intelligent and academic individuals who make arguments in such a precise manner and are very passionate about their stances. There's nothing wrong with arguments in GenDisc that are like this, even if there does happen to be an over-abundance of them.

[MatthTheGeek]

At this stage we have an attention-whoring wingnut troll (Nakura) and an eternally-oblivious idiot boy (Lorric) making it functionally impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion on GD without a massive, all-consuming derail

If you can't handle GenDisc, why do you still go there ? Sounds like masochism to me.

Did you guys ever stop and think that, hey, if some dude's posting stuff that I find really annoying, maybe I should just ignore it, and not actively contribute to any sort of huge derail mess?

Exactly.

...you're basically arguing we should allow GenDisc to become a cesspool of ignorance and trolling without making even a token attempt to rebut any kind of falsehood or ignorance

Was it ever different from that ?

and thus remove a major source of people coming to the forum still

If people come to the forum only for trolling in GD, why should we want them to come ?

as well as possibly causing the GenDisc forum to get nuked in the next periodic effort at reform (since that's been suggested in almost every single one of them)

Maybe it's been suggested so often because it's always been the wisest course of action to take ?

[Black Wolf]

I think that one way we can be proactive here is to lock this thread before it gets even further out of hand. To balance it out, the Swiss thread is also locked.

To finally address the original points:

Nakura's latest thread came after he was warned about just this sort of behaviour. That will likely warrant a response from the staff, but we are still deciding on an appropriate course of action. The discussions have (re)started, and not everyone is online all the time so it takes some time. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean we're not talking with people behind the scenes. Things are happening as a result of previous discussions, whether you realize it or not.

If people have a problem with the moderation, I fully expect threads like this to start. But, in a comment I should have made in my first reply, Phantom Hoover - consider this your public warning, in addition t the private one that has been logged with the system. Just because you don't like an individual, or even if you think that the majority of the people on the board don't like them, doesn't give you the right to insult them.

[Mongoose]

Beskargam said most of what I would have much better than I could have, so I'll just give a big to that.  In particular, what he says in the second paragraph is absolutely correct.  Action has been taken with the individuals in question, action is being taken, and if necessary, further action will be taken in the future.  Just because you may not see the visible results that you yourself desire does not mean that the moderators are sitting around twiddling our thumbs.  We're not going to issue bans to people simply because a certain portion of the users finds them irritating to deal with, and that's historically never been the case here for as long as I can remember.  (The enduring presence of a select few individuals should be testament enough to that.)  One of the main goals of the revised moderation style was to create a system where the moderators can come to a consensus on potential issues and take progressive measures if necessary, and that policy has been employed on almost every incident that's come up since that thread was first posted.  I can assure you that it's happening here, too.

mjn.mixael makes a great point, too: just because there's no visible evidence of moderation against a certain user does not mean that steps aren't being taken.  Regardless of the expressed desire to (eventually) create a public listing of currently warned/banned members, an individual user doesn't have a particular right to know how some other user is or isn't being moderated.  You are not privy to any private communications that are occurring with certain users, nor should you be.  Our goal here is not to create a system that produces big visible snap-judgment actions...in fact, it's almost the exact opposite.  In the absence of a clear-cut case or an imminent threat to the boards' integrity, moderation actions may take some time to play out, but they certainly will.  I daresay that neither Lorric nor Nakura represents any such level of threat.

NGTM-1R, you said that discussion with certain individuals "inevitably becomes disruptive."  Once again, the solution is right there: don't enter into discussions with them.  Allow us to do our jobs.

(Gah, I didn't intend to get the last word in here; Black Wolf snuck a post in before I could.)

[Goober5000]

I think Black Wolf and Mongoose did a fine job of handling this thread so I'm not going to add anything to what they said.  But I'll address the two points that weren't covered:

1) The "new policy" is in limbo for the time being.  Based on the feedback in the discussion thread, the consensus was that Zacam would draft a fresh policy to be presented to the staff and possibly to the Grognards.  We're currently waiting on Zacam to do that.  The main aspect of the recent policy announcement that is in effect is the deliberative approach to moderation, which is actively being followed and seems to be working as designed.

2) The fact that the policy announcement remained stickied was an oversight.  I've unstickied it.

[karajorma]

It wasn't an oversight. I left it stickied so that Zacam would remember to write the new one.

[Zacam]

I know a new one is needed and we don't need the "current" one sticking around and causing a problem.

It's been hectic for me to get back on track with several things, but fortunately (in large part due to the Panels I attended at PAX Prime this year) I have a fairly decent grasp of what sort of outline I'm planning for. I just need the sideways breathing space of free time to actually do it.