[Solatar]

FRED now...
...name later.

[ShadowGorrath]

First I need to fully finish the mod pack. Then comes the FREDing. If I started making missions without the mod pack finished first, it'd result in something strange and crappy.

[Mobius]

Where do you get that the Ancients had been colonizing for thousands of years?

I really think that their superior knowledge of subspace, and the fact that they weren't involved in any major wars (as Lobo said) is what allowed the Ancients' empire to grow so big.  We don't know how quickly it grew, however.  The fact that CANON states that the Ancients weren't too far ahead of us technology indicates that they haven't been in space for too much longer than us.

"For thousands of years our Empire expanded..."

Quoted from Ancients 1 Cutscene: For Thousands of years our Empire expanded
But my objection to Mobius' use of that is that they never said they were colonizing other systems for thousands of years.
That statment could very well be saying that some national empire on the Ancient's Homworld, like the Ancient Egyptians, expanded taking over their entire planet then eventually colonized their entire star system. I really dont think we'd be quite as far Mobius Says if the Ancient Egyptian empire still existed.

For so long, never did we encounter advanced life
Hey mankind has been expanding for over 10,000 years and we've yet to [officially] encounter aliens
In fact the ancients didnt start conquering other races till after they discovered subspace

My opinion of the Shivan ancient war is that it was a cross between the Earth-Minbari war and Various Shadow battles (Shadows vs narms, Shadows vs LONAW) from babylon 5.

Basically, the Ancients got r***ed.
No weapons capable of penetrating shields...so for the Ancients, nothing short of ramming them could stop shivan fighters and bombers.
No shields and Shivans undetectable

Which is a bit forced. We're talking about the "Ancient Empire", a reference to the level of colonization an entire race reached. Conquering a planet alone is not a big deal, you know.

Where's the problem with the others? They discover subspace after a certain period of time and rely on conventional engines until that moment. I don't know B5 so I can't get the reference to the wars you mentioned.

Anyways, they encountered MANY species, which means that the Empire and therefore its economical capabilities were immense.

Power? I thought it was technological level. And it can't really prevent a civilization from constructing something build, especially a very old one. Terrans in FS1 did have the capacity of building superdestroyer sized ships and maybe something bigger. Put together a fraction of all Terran destroyers and you have a juggernaut. Try to imagine an immense empire and you have MANY juggernaut. Think about the fact that the Ancients could even go further and you have one or more superjuggernauts(maybe not Inferno-like...something Nukemod-like).

Yes, it was technological level. But what you're saying is if you have enough time and patience, we could build something big, really big, just like that, even if we didn't have a lot of technology. This is untrue. How would you get enough energy to power a superjuggernaut, or enough weaponry to arm it. And even if you did, it would probably be an unfeasible warship. You can't build something so big with basic technology and expect it to be able to fight properly. It would be like putting the Colossus into FS1 and giving it 100% Terran Turrets. The Lucifer would still be able to beat it easily enough. But it may be possible they created superjuggernauts simply for fun, and not for actual fighting (like the ****ing French and their ****ing castles and statues).

Pointless as you don't know what Ancients anti capital weapons were about. We can only speculate about them and I don't exaggerate if I cite canon sources suggesting that the Ancients were able to level planets(entire races were crushed). In any case a big ship could have been used as giant carrier and/or as mobile docking points for other vessels and/or planet destroyers/levellers. Your knowledge can't prove me wrong and vice versa, but you can't exclude things that may be true and plausible.

They expanded for thousands of years before discovering subspace. I think the discovery of subspace is a major change of direction. The Ancients developed very fast in the area of subspace, but slower in the other areas (only a few decades ahead of the PVN and GTA, to paraphrase that quote).

The Ancients may have had a lot of time to expand, but they never needed to fight anything prior to finding subspace. If the Ancients had fought a civil war or a war against an equally advanced species (prior to the Shivans obviously) they would probably have been able to create something big.

You've got to understand that the Ancients never needed to fight anything really evil, so they had absolutely no need for a large capital ship.

The Ancients faced MANY races so the time they spent colonizing space was incredibly impressive. 1) You don't know how many years the Ancient Empire lasted and 2) Without considering the fact that your assumption about what they fought even inside their own Empire I mentioned many reasons behind the possible construction of a very big ship.

Several galaxies possibly ("When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom") but resources aren't the problem in the slightest. We have enough resources on Earth to build a 20km thing, I can assure you that.

An economy? To sell to who? I have to say that the Ancients most likely had a different governmental structure to us umies.

I refer to the number of industries and overall to the amount of resources. If the main Ancient system asked for resources to build a massive ship it would have easily received them from the rest of the Empire. The amount of resources would have been enough to build MANY Superjugs and please don't try to claim the contrary because such an assumption would be illogical.

Pride yes. Assimilation? No. They encountered tiny lifeforms "Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" Lifeforms not capable of giving too much resistance. They fought them for a few months, not even a few years.

Besides, "Pride" completely contradicts "Assimilation." The point of the Ancients were that they thought they were the greatest, and nothing was above them. They didn't want to assimilate, their technology was the top dog. That's why they couldn't adapt when the Shivans came. And they were blown back to kingdom come (which evidently, was also blown up).

You have a point about their incapacity to adapt to the Shivans but you can't exclude the fact that "they took the best" from defeated civilizations. Pride and Prize work fine together.

Primitive, exactly. They were primitive. How could the Ancients have learned things from primitive civilizations that they killed in mere months? The Ancients were easily able to kill species.

And what do you mean, "I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients" isn't valid at all? You've just said they were primitive, and now you're saying that your entire point is valid? What are you on about?

Please note that the Great War didn't last years and the TV war was initially supposed to be that long. There are things you can't be sure of. Did you expect such a fierce resistance from the Finnish in the Winter War? This aspect of wars asks for long discussions which require more data(we don't have it).

A species can be RELETIVELY primitive. War machines can be good but industrial capacity can be primitive. Pilots can be excellent but their spacecraft aren't able to match their opponents. The Ancients had the numbers and the power and, like the Shivans in FS1, that's enough to make the difference.

What's the point in discussing the modpack if there isn't a definitive background? "Ship X with name Y"...that's pointless! Definitive plans should come first, it's easy to adapt a modpack!

[Snail]

What's the point in discussing the modpack if there isn't a definitive background? "Ship X with name Y"...that's pointless! Definitive plans should come first, it's easy to adapt a modpack!

To be honest, Mobius, the reason I couldn't continue the argument was because I couldn't quote your huge post properly.

Anyway, Ancients = Big Fleet but no Superjugs

[Mobius]

Ok, let's forget the big ship thing for a moment...there are plenties of things to discuss.

ShadowGorrath's basically taking a canon species whose canon info are very poor to create a mod. It requires a lot of work under a storyline point of view. I personally think he's focusing on the modpack without caring about other important things. I don't want this mod to be a new combat experience, only.

[ShadowGorrath]

I already decided on how's the fleet like. The biggest Ancient ship is a juggernaut, and there's only 1.

[Mobius]

See?

What about the Ancient government? What kind of tactics did the Ancients use? When does the campaign start, exactly?

If this mod has to be done it must be good. Something about the Ancients can't be poor under a plot/background/ organization point of view.

[ShadowGorrath]

The Ancients are considered to work in something like castes - government, civilians, workers, military, etc.

Tactics - you'll see for yourself.

It starts during the arrival of the Lucifers - the part where the tide of the war is shifted to the bad side.

And currently, I'm working almost alone. So unless I get hosted somewhere ( which I won't for a while ) I won't get anyone to help me, as I'd need to have to share some files internally ( non-public ).

P.S. The Shivan motives and etc. are considered canon to Flaming_Sword's Shivan mod.

[Mobius]

Interesting, so the war is already going. Well, the campaign would be too long otherwise.

[Snail]

Interesting, so the war is already going. Well, the campaign would be too long otherwise.

Chapters...

[ShadowGorrath]

That would be like Inferno pre-SCP.

[Mobius]

?

[ShadowGorrath]

If I would work on this mod and release it by chapters, then you'd have 'Ancient-Shivan War Mod Release1', which wouldn't make much sense, and then 10 years of wait for a reworked mod.

[Mobius]

Depends on you. If you're willing to improve the modpack AND the story it will end up like INF SCP.

[Snail]

That would be like Inferno pre-SCP.

It was only a suggestion, I think this mod will rock cock as it is.

[Getter Robo G]

I ran into a snag, all the available tools won't convert a model I re textured to test out how they'd look in the engine for an "ancients" theme. Can you guys help me out? If successful I might do a few more conversions along this theme.

I only got one message from my efforts, MV says too many polys which is BS. Pcs1 and 2 lock up. It only has like 3600 and I've done bigger models successfully.



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Mobius]

That reminds old Claymore...

It doesn't fit with the other ships unless you add proper textures. It would work as an advanced fighter, IMO.

[Droid803]

...
It starts during the arrival of the Lucifers - the part where the tide of the war is shifted to the bad side.

...

Lucifers (plural)? 

[Mobius]

So? Where's the problem?

[Getter Robo G]

Well I was deciding if I should scrap the old fleet I altered as "ancients" and go with this line instead (New Hydrans by Kreeargh). I wanted to see how they look in game as compared to the old for ideas. It was slated to be a standard cap ship.

Sorry for the bother. - end of posting