Author Topic: I hate BP  (Read 9757 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Qent

  • 29
Maybe humanity will break out of that plan and pwn Vishnans and Shivans alike.

IIRC it's Sathanes, but on this board you should always use Sathanasen. :D

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
The obvious problem with Volition alledged plans to have GTVA surpass Shivans in their migth is a really deep and boring sense of dejá vu. FS2 was already about the GTVA apparently getting the better hand over the Shivans only to get their royal backsides hammered pretty heavily. If FS3 went to the path of "we pwn shivans already", two scenarios would eventually unfold: either they would actually pwn the shivans, and that's kinda anticlimatic (so this huge vertigo we had in FS2 was meaningless?), or they would have the Twist again to teach us manners... and that would be even worse.

Of course, there's nothing that good writing cannot overcome.

 
The obvious problem with Volition alledged plans to have GTVA surpass Shivans in their migth is a really deep and boring sense of dejá vu. FS2 was already about the GTVA apparently getting the better hand over the Shivans only to get their royal backsides hammered pretty heavily. If FS3 went to the path of "we pwn shivans already", two scenarios would eventually unfold: either they would actually pwn the shivans, and that's kinda anticlimatic (so this huge vertigo we had in FS2 was meaningless?), or they would have the Twist again to teach us manners... and that would be even worse.

Of course, there's nothing that good writing cannot overcome.

I have to agree with the sentiment. Rehashing FS2's core dynamic with FS3 seems about as viable as how Godfather 3 managed to ruin the second. If that is how they planned it, I probably would have bought the game, but only from the discount bin.

I have wondered from time to time why many in the mod community seem so tied to Volition's narrative, at least as applied to be an official "Freespace Mod". The plot, such as it was, was merely an excuse to put the player into various game scenarios the developer thought up. Every piece with the exception of the player was expendable. Entire squadrons were brought in and removed seemingly at whim. One moment you're a hotshot Interceptor pilot. 6 missions later you're suddenly lumbering around in a clunky bomber doing a completely different tactical job with minimal training. Entire (essentially cardboard) major force "capital" ships are blown up, but as long as that all important mission list doesn't turn red, the player feels great for potentially flying a perfect mission. It was a game that seemed to cater to an excuse plot. That doesn't take away from the overall universe that Volition created, I just don't get why it's considered so important what Volition wanted as far as the ending of the series goes. What they wanted was a great big space battle, with flashy beams of death, and probably a sudden twist ending told in low res cutscenes.

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
Interesting to see that BP had a negative effect on some people's FREDding motivation. For me, WiH was just another representative of a "3rd generation*" of FREDding FS campaigns that fully and completely integrate with FSOpen and really stretch the engine - campaigns like Vassago's Dirge, Wings of Dawn (by all accounts), the BtRL demo, recent JaDs and one or two others. These campaigns are all similar in that the old ways of making missions (Aping volition, basically) aren't really up to standard any more - we have the tools to make a much more interesting, complex and diverse pool of missions

 I think it's been successful because it's probably the best-polished example of the current generation, and very tightly integrates a large number of new assets with the new gameplay capabilities of the SCP. It looks unique, plays unique, and has enough of a storyline to keep people interested whether they particularly like it or not. I'm personally not a fan of several of the decisions they made (character based gameplay being a big one), but I can still enjoy it as a technical tour-de-force.



*For anyone who cares, I'd define the generations of FS campaigns basically as follows:

First generation campaigns were everything released prior to and in the immediate aftermath of the Source code release. The aim was largely to ape Volition - a good campaign had lots of not-too-complex, bug free missions with fun gameplay. They (generally) had few mods and were basically the equivalent of FS2 expansion packs. Examples would be the Cold Element campaigns (Derelict, Warzone etc.), Homesick etc.

Second generation campaigns were the ones released post SCP, but without the full integration of the various new features that we have now. These might have larger modpacks (representing the larger mod-base available at the time they were created and increasing skillset of the community) and use some SCP features. These often also represented a significant step up in the quality and complexity of the FREDding. Examples here would be Unification War, PI, Transcend and ST:R.

Third generation are campaigns that fully integrate with the SCP, and could never have been realized in anything like their current forms with the original engine. These often have big modpacks, and feature unique and often very complex FREDding tricks that allow for significant diversity of mission design (most likely due to the fact that the community has reached a sort of "critical mass" of FRED experience, as well as the ability to add new features to the engine as required). I'd say this generation probably started with Windmills, which was far and away the most complex and advanced campaign of its day, and continues with the sort of campaigns I mentioned before.

Obviously, it's not a perfect system, but I think it's interesting to have charted the development of the FS modding scene. Every few years, the standard of quality that people expect goes up. If, for example, Derelict was released today, even in it's post-FSCRP, voice acted form, it would no doubt be praised for its coherent storyline and largely bug free missions and VA, but I think it's very unlikely that it'd be considered the classic that it currently is. It's simply not ambitious enough for modern standards. But for me personally, I don't see this as a demotivator that prevents me FREDding - more a motivator to increase the quality of the work I am doing. There are a couple of features in TI missions that would probably have been put into the "too hard" basket a few years ago, but which are in the missions today because campaigns like VD and WiH proved that very complex and interesting things could be done, and the net result is, IMO, a significant improvement.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 
I certainly think it's hard to show, introduce, let alone release any campaign when people use the same bar that AoA and WiH has set. Perhaps it also has to do with people's desire to make the best work and for their hard work be admired. Maybe it's best to let that be and just try to make something really great that you personally like and want to make, not to surpass other people's work.

I personally try to take ideas from any source I come in contact with, be it a FPS game, be it a space game, a mod, or otherwise. By introducing and writing ideas down into a document for yourself, then re-read the entire document every few days adding more ideas and text, does a lot to start off your campaign in a better light than only emulating (which is also a source for information and improvement).
I'm all about getting the most out of games, so whenever I discover something very strange or push the limits, I upload them here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JCDentonCZ

-----------------

"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress to more pain."
- George Orwell

 

Offline BritishShivans

  • Jolly good supernova
  • 29
I hate the Vishnans too. It ruined the Shivans and turned them into cardboard boxes. Perhaps literally.

I liked it when there were just Shivans.

Anyway, asides from the stupid Vishnan dynamic, I actually kinda like BP.  On the thought of the GTVA winning against the Shivans, I never understood why it should be "lol we pwn shivnas". I always thought if they "did" win, it should be hard fought and virtually decimate the GTVA military. I mean seriously, 75 SATHANASES.  And that's not counting how many destroyers they might have. Or the potentially millions of fighters and bombers.

(75 because the first sathanas got killed while four juggs got left behind (ran out of fuel?) when they blew up Capella.)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Every few years, the standard of quality that people expect goes up. If, for example, Derelict was released today, even in it's post-FSCRP, voice acted form, it would no doubt be praised for its coherent storyline and largely bug free missions and VA, but I think it's very unlikely that it'd be considered the classic that it currently is. It's simply not ambitious enough for modern standards.
You're kidding. If Derelict was released today, it would be bashed to oblivion for not actually being anywhere close to bug-free (both the current FSCRP and the original have multiple game-stopping bugs), and being actually too ambitious (look at how many missions there are in there ! We keep suggesting newbies to make short campaigns for a reason). Not to mention the way of handling PIRATES à la Volitionesque waves after wave.

I certainly think it's hard to show, introduce, let alone release any campaign when people use the same bar that AoA and WiH has set.
It's probably much harder to actually get people to play it. Look at the number of 1st and 2nd generation campaigns we have. Who has played them all ? I probably played most of them, but that's most likely not the case of half the people around here. If you were to release yet another campaign like that, it would be exactly this, "yet another campaign". We already have more than enough of those. Players want innovative stuff.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
This is a good thread! I think Betrayal, BlackWolf and Rampage have all made really good points. BP is one stylistic direction, not the only stylistic direction. It overplays where Volition liked to underplay. It gives you more words, more ships, louder music, more information -- and this can be good, it can be bad, it's certainly a departure that's just not always going to click. It works for some, doesn't work for others. It's important that there be no one right direction to take FreeSpace modding -- we're all stronger for diversity.

We on the team have a lot of the same concerns about the Vishnans and it's something our outline going forward will engage with.

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28

We on the team have a lot of the same concerns about the Vishnans and it's something our outline going forward will engage with.

Hoping for a promise of all out Tev victory is a little unrealistic I suppose, so that statement of yours just made my day
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Of course... the BP team has been saying for years now that there's more to the Vishnans than we've seen so far and that they aren't necessarily the benevolent benefactors Sam was led to believe they are. They fight their own war in heaven......
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline -Sara-

  • 29
Heck, all these divine machinations could just be the delusions of a very sick girl called Noemi, fighting a one-(wo)man war against the friendly GTVA with all her imaginary friends. :P Can't wait to see the real reason though! If I ever get enough sparetime to play BP-II 2/2.
Currently playing: real life.

"Paying bills, working, this game called real life is so much fun!" - Said nobody ever.

 

Offline Kreit

  • 22
Bp is just marvelous. it brings serious military background to an otherwise amateur feeling game (original FS2, I mean).
I just have  a small problem with the recent updates, the way they throw all this screaming metal at you in the missions of WiH... even on very easy, I cannot pass through deals in the shadow and delenda est, the first because I can't command the IA around to preemptive interception on one of the two wings coming at the Reshadiye, and both of them are enough to hulk the transport, the second because  there's no way to dispatch the enemy out of his maxim range to the Indus without switching ship, and you can't do that anymore at the briefing. A kent would really be nicer than a sluggish uriel there, same goes for the other wings.
I also have a rather big problem with the quality of the friendly AI, witch is more getting in the way than helping when confronted to the enemy. In both of these mission, if I F4 before failure and debrief, I see I scored about 80-90% of the kills. and this ratio doesn't change with the difficulty level, always stay the same.
So my question is : are there custom AIs floating around that might be compatible with BP : WiH and raise the efficiency of the wingmen?

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Wait, what? You can't select your ship in Delenda Est any more? It sounds like something has definitely gotten screwed up in more recent versions of SCP or the mod.

As for the AI: BP2 already uses the Fury AI, the first real custom AI the community ever produced and one which is now standard across most mods. Usually the problem is the AI wingmen being too good. It sounds like something strange is going on.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
I think he meant that he'd just like to switch from an Uriel to a Kent in-mission because Uriel too slow. But of course, you can't change ship in-mission.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I think he meant that he'd just like to switch from an Uriel to a Kent in-mission because Uriel too slow. But of course, you can't change ship in-mission.

With checkpoints you can!

 

Offline Fury

  • The Curmudgeon
  • 213
It sounds like something has definitely gotten screwed up in more recent versions of SCP or the mod.
bp2-15.fs2 itself has been edited only three times since 2010 and none of these edits except the very latest one should have any impact on mission balance. The latest one is only a week old, so it's not in public release. Meaning that if balance really has changed, the problem is elsewhere. The funny thing is, that if something else causes difference in mission balance, why it has only been noticed in Delenda Est?

 

Offline niffiwan

  • 211
  • Eluder Class
I've run across with FSO crashing in various missions (not just in blueplanet2) when I try change to the ship selection or loadout screens.  The briefing screen is fine though.  It only occurs after I'd played & failed a given mission at least once and when it occurs, it keeps crashing at these screens until I complete the mission (i.e. advance the campaign).  This was with antipodes8 though, Kreit - are you running antipodes8?  Or 3.6.14RC5?
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline Kreit

  • 22
I'm currently using fs2_open_3_6_14_RC5, and it says loading BP caused 87 errors, might be the reason I can't change ship during the briefing, in any mission.
Secondly, and I'm not bragging, I got top score on almost all mission, be it BP with fury or FS1 and 2 without, that's why I'm asking if there are other AI around.
The problem is, I can't possibly do all the work by myself, and there are loads of fighters coming around with one purpose only... wrecking capships.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I'm currently using fs2_open_3_6_14_RC5, and it says loading BP caused 87 errors, might be the reason I can't change ship during the briefing, in any mission.
Secondly, and I'm not bragging, I got top score on almost all mission, be it BP with fury or FS1 and 2 without, that's why I'm asking if there are other AI around.
The problem is, I can't possibly do all the work by myself, and there are loads of fighters coming around with one purpose only... wrecking capships.

I'm worried that something's changed in the gameplay between 3.6.12 and 3.6.14.