[headdie]

Well, I like the GTVA, but the confused nature of why they declared war  and all these "justifications" make no sense to me. I'm hoping BP3 explains this and finally gives an answer that makes sense, rather than "durr unbuntu can make people agree dispite hating eachother without mindcontrol!!!111"

You know, I'm hoping this is the reason why. The Elders use Nagari technology to force people who hate/disagree/want to murder the other into agreeing with their viewpoints when there is conflict, but continuous abuse of the device/devices is making them corrupt, and that the GTVA Security Council has come not to destroy Ubuntu or whatever that noise is called, but they see the Elders as ineligible leaders, and have given the fleets in Sol their permission to remove the UEF's leaders from power by whatever means are the most effective.

If it makes you feel better, I only want the Elders and the GTVA military wiped out by the Shivans

If you read through the Intel section of the Techroom most of this is explained but...

The issue is that Ubuntu preaches the use of peaceful and fair methods to conflict resolution.  Obviously this extremely unlikely to work in the next shivan encounter given previous form, as such the GTVA government sees this philosophy escaping into the general population as a threat to the GTVA's ability to be prepared for the next time the shivans show up.

Some in the HLP community see/have seen the existence of a UEF military as Ubuntu not being so much of a problem but 1) the military is there more as a function of government and 2) is limited in doctrine to using minimum force, which is reflected in ship design and deployment patterns, tbh pre invasion I get the sense that the military acted more as a tactical response for the civilian security in system. 

When you also consider that the GTVA has approaching equal numeric force in warships and probably a numeric inferiority in fighters/bombers (not to mention design inferiority) in system at the start of the war, even considering GTVA reinforcements, the UEF military is doing poorly overall and has no real answer to the GTVA's fire power as deployed in system.  Also considering the UEF occupy a system which in BP lore has the potential industrial output of several of the GTVA's most developed systems and has the business end of the Lucifer drifting about somewhere including 2 examples of it's beam cannon tech and they are still getting pummeled, you can see why the GTVA continue to hold the opinion that Ubuntu is a credible threat to GTVA military preparation.

[^Graff]

One thing that I've never seen mentioned on the boards is the fact that since the Shivans only went after the Ancients, Terrans and Vasudans when they were being aggressive/jigonistic, Ubuntu might actually be a better choice for humanity.  Jigonistic societies cross the "Trigger Threshold."  Pacifistic, cooperative societies do not.

[headdie]

but without concrete evidence can the GTVA risk it?

[^Graff]

I'm not saying that the GTVA should know better, there's no way that they would.  But I'm really not sure why so many players favor the GTVA when the UEF is less likely to cause an incursion.  (Or *was* less likely, until the Wargods threw ethics out the window in their drive to win at all costs.)

[Ryuseiken]

That's really the big question, and it's not like anyone has any definite proof either way. It may be that by trying so hard to prepare for the Shivans the GTVA is inviting it's own destruction. On the other hand, the Shivans in AoA disagree with the Vishnans on whether or not to let the humans live, so they might attack the GTVA anyways since they are already 'banished' by the Vishnans.

[QuakeIV]

Well the shivans are banished in an entirely different reality.

Also basically everything in AoA could easily be alien propaganda for the purpose of weakening humanity.

[Aesaar]

To what end?  Neither the Vishnans nor the Shivans need to weaken humanity.  They can already wipe everyone off the map.

[QuakeIV]

As true as that is, its rather wasteful thinking.  Your kindof assuming the Vishnans are complete retards like the Shivans.

They could lose some ships while taking out humanity or they could not.  Its a pretty brutally simple choice.  If they can convince humanity to demilitarize with a little bit of effort then thats better than smashing them to pieces as they are, easy though that may be.

e: grammar applied

[Ryuseiken]

I don't know, just by exposing themselves the Vishnans gave humans first hand experience with their ships, including showing them the glaring flaw that blowing up a Sacred Keeper essentially takes out the battlegroup.

It could be a ruse, but that seems kind of unnecessarily complicated when the complete surprise of a new hostile species attacking would probably of served them just as well if they wanted to crush us.

[QuakeIV]

Hm that is a good point, I'll concur that events were at least partially true.  All considered it would be fairly believable that the Vishnans were taken by surprise when the Sathanas attacked.

Its worth noting though that the whole situation was narrated by the Vishnans, allowing them to alter perception of the situation however they like.  Its not like the Shivans got a word in edgewise.  ("translations" don't count methinks)  Also the fact that it resulted in the mutiny of a large chunk of one of the GTVA's best battlegroups seems suspicious.  (i actually rather disliked how i was railroaded into defecting to earth, i thought it was ridiculously awesome when i learned what Commands plan was, would have been perfectly happy to carry along with it but i digress)

The image they painted just seemed a little too silly to me.  "We must maintain the balance of the universe!  Destroy to Preserve!(lol)  The Shivans kill off species systematically to ensure everyone gets their turn!"

Are we seriously supposed to expect a species that thinks that way to get past being eaten by wild animals regularly?  (or crushed like insects by other species early on)

edited for clarity

[Ryuseiken]

Well that was the explanation implied at the end of freespace 1, so it's works well within the established story.

I'll admit the preserve balance thing is a bit cliche, but we still don't know very much about this balance, the Vishnan's place in it, if they evolved or were created or really anything about them except for what we saw in AoA and possibly parts of WiH. I'm interested in seeing where they go with it, since imo the premise is less important than the execution, and so far the execution has been stellar (edit: pun not intended, happy accident!).

[SaltyWaffles]

One thing that I've never seen mentioned on the boards is the fact that since the Shivans only went after the Ancients, Terrans and Vasudans when they were being aggressive/jigonistic, Ubuntu might actually be a better choice for humanity.  Jigonistic societies cross the "Trigger Threshold."  Pacifistic, cooperative societies do not.

Circular logic, on the Shivans' part, if that is the case. It's a LOT harder for a society to become more peaceful and docile when the Shivans repeatedly demonstrate their terrifying and incredible power, astounding numbers, total desire for xenocide, rejection of all attempts at communication and negotiation, and mystifying nature. Why is the GTVA attacking the UEF? Because they're afraid that the UEF's pacifiscm/tolerance/friendliness/lack of super-strong military will make all of them very vulnerable to a Shivan invasion. So...the bad cultural force is attacking the good cultural force because the good cultural force is, by nature, not nearly as good as fighting against an overwhelming and mysterious threat that takes the most powerful traits of the bad cultural force up to 20. And does not negotiate or talk to you. Ever.

So, for the Shivans, if they had any concept of logic, would have to know how mind-numbingly stupid they would be to brutally enforce a viscous cycle that they are themselves a major cause of. In some cases, THE ONLY cause of. Though, I admit, it would still be ten orders of magnitude better than the Reapers (shudders at impossibly bad writing/storytelling/everything ME3).

I just get a feeling that, at some point in the war, the GTVA could actually get satisfactory terms out of a UEF surrender if they focused more on removing the Elders as a legal/governmental power and focusing more on defense against the undeniable and large Shivan threat.

[An4ximandros]

Actually not that circular, imho.

I see it like this, Vasudans, Humans, Ancients crossed into subspace and went waging wars around, Shivans decided to kill them, they did so with the Ancients (as far as we know ), failed at the Humans and Vasudans because of an unexpected alliance, they then decided to cause a civil war to weaken them and moved a Juggernaut fleet into Capella to use it as a time, dimensional or whatever jump to keep them in reserve for the inevitable strike, Vishnans however, were intrigued by the development of Ubuntu in Sol and the philosophical transformation of the Vasudans without the corruption from the Parliament, and thought that, maybe, they could be worth keeping around, but the Terran half of the GTVA had to be converted or eliminated, now that the UEF is starting to fall to the dark side and the Vasudans allowed themselves to be dragged into the war, they might have changed their minds about the whole thing, and might let the Shivans wipe their slates clean, since it's clear that the Terran GTVA is as a corrosive force as the Ancients were.

The words "the creators blundered once and in doing so unleashed the the deepness that now stalks the cold roads" seem to imply that the Brhamas hesitated and bought ruin as a result, "they burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth" possibly a reference to the ancients, which forced the Brahmas to create the Shivans and Vishnans as guardians for those who could not fight back and prevent a new multi-galactic empire from being even dreamed of. "Never again will that price be paid" they are not willing to take any more chances, as they took enough under the Vishnans' insistence.

So the Shivans are simply being cautious, they won't risk another wildfire across the universe.

[Luis Dias]

I think Loki said it well in the plot.

"An Ant has no quarrel with a boot".

Ant, meet the boot. Oh, wait that wasn't fre

[Ryuseiken]

I was under the impression that Bosch's motives were his own, his own fascination with the power of the Shivans made him obsessed with creating an alliance with them because he thought (perhaps rightly) that we could never beat them if they got serious. He activated the Knossos and the Shivans moved in, but I didn't think the Shivans were responsible for the NTF (at least not directly). The NTF seemed to have just let the big scary dog off his leash because they thought they could reason with it.

[-Norbert-]

Most of the NTF never knew about ETAC. They were just in for Neo-Terra or for their hate against the Vasudans.
For Bosch they were just a tool to gain unobserved access to the ancient artifacts and digsites and later to clear a patch to the portal.

[Phantom Hoover]

If the UEF decides to lie back and ignore the Shivans they'd be making an incredibly stupid gamble with the future of humanity. The theory that the Shivans only attack warmongers is based on three coincidences and a lot of metanarrative speculation on our part as players. Looking at this rationally and sceptically, without the knowledge that they're in a story, you'd be a complete fool to bank on the Shivans leaving you be if you lived quietly in peace. The Vishnans don't really change any of this -- there's every reason to suspect that they have an agenda beyond saving humanity from the Shivans, and the induced hallucination of a single pilot aren't the kind of foundation you want to build a future for humanity on.

[Luis Dias]

If the UEF decides to lie back and ignore the Shivans they'd be making an incredibly stupid gamble with the future of humanity.

There's a difference between "lie back" and "ignore" the Shivans. It may well be the case that someone has concluded that it matter diddly squat if one civilization invested 1% or 60% in an arms race, if the outcome of a probable war was the same: the annihilation of humankind. In this respect, to waste fifty, a hundred years on a futile endeavour wrecking your own humanity, material progress, economy, standard of living in the process could have been deemed outrageous.

It may well also be the case that that same someone has decided that there was a difference between investing 0% and 1%, that contingencies, research and development, planning, organizing and hard thinking was still important investments to ensure more probability to the survival of humankind.

We can tribalize the issue here, but I do not regard the UEF as blatantly stupid nor the GTVA as blatantly whatever-else. They are realistically portrayed as flawed humans.

[-Norbert-]

If the UEF decides to lie back and ignore the Shivans they'd be making an incredibly stupid gamble with the future of humanity. The theory that the Shivans only attack warmongers is based on three coincidences and a lot of metanarrative speculation on our part as players. Looking at this rationally and sceptically, without the knowledge that they're in a story, you'd be a complete fool to bank on the Shivans leaving you be if you lived quietly in peace. The Vishnans don't really change any of this -- there's every reason to suspect that they have an agenda beyond saving humanity from the Shivans, and the induced hallucination of a single pilot aren't the kind of foundation you want to build a future for humanity on.

But it isn't just "induced hallicinations of a single pilot". Induced hallucinations maybe, but certainly not just a singel pilot. At least some of the Elders and the two Beis all had some communications with the Vishnans, otherwise they couldn't complain about "the silence" in sunglare.

And the UEF doesn't ignore the Shivan's existance. Why else would they ever have build the Solaris' and their heavy bombers? Surely not to combat the Gef.

Apart from that, the problem with the GTVA isn't that they prepare for the next incursion, but that they do so at the cost of their population. The economy of the Terran part of the GTVA is on the brink of collapse and the population close to rioting. On top of that they went to war with the UEF. Those things could have been avoided, while still being prepared for a Shivan invasion.

[Aesaar]

And the UEF doesn't ignore the Shivan's existance. Why else would they ever have build the Solaris' and their heavy bombers? Surely not to combat the Gef.

Perhaps the UEF isn't as peaceful as suggested.

No reason to expect UEF torpedoes would even work against Lucifer shields.  Antimatter-based Tsunamis were useless, and kinetic weapons aren't known to be effective against shields either.  The UEF had no reason to expect another Shivan incursion wouldn't have a Lucifer leading it, so if they were preparing for another Shivan attack, wouldn't it make more sense to invest in new technologies to pierce shields, rather than building more weapons that have been demonstrated to be ineffective?  Like, say, beams?

Even the FS2 GTVA was better adapted to fighting Shivans than the current UEF is.