Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: quadrox on September 30, 2012, 03:41:26 pm
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When I use my (cheap Saitek Evo) joystick to play diaspora, I find the control to be very annoying. For example: I point the stick forward and the nose goes down - this is fine. But when I release the joystick so that it returns to center, the nose keeps going down for a while before actually stopping. I have to actively move the joystick backward to actually make the ship stop immediately, which is very difficult to do accurately. This always leads to overshooting the target, because the ships nose does not actually follow the movement of the joystick, but keeps going on inertia.
When using mouse controls I don't have those problems, the nose always goes exactly where I point. This leads me to my question - is joystick control implemented to be this difficult on purpose, or is it a problem with my joystick? (I don't see how, but I would be happy to learn more)
If it is done intentionally, can we please get a way to disable this "feature"? I prefer to play with my joystick, but as long as the ship handles better with the mouse I will use the mouse!
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It sounds like your stick isn't set up correctly.
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It's not your problem....is the rotdamp factor in the ships that is too high...so you have this gap using the joystick:
Whit the mouse, you don't feel this ''floating'' effect since the movements you do are more accurate and small.
I have an high end X65-f stick and the issue is the same.
I think you'll need a bit of practice and the gap will be less noticeable :) ...anyway the issue will remains.
Maybe decreasing the rotdamp factor (say 50%) will solve this problems for joy users.
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This would be the reason that I don't use my Saitek X45 any more..
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really a pity not using an Hotas system in this kind of game...maybe you have less precision than whit a mouse, but you lose a great immersion factor IMHO.
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Eh, can't hit the broad side of a barn, and takes me about 5-10x longer to shoot down anything. (Unless it's doing a nice smooth loop with no evasives.)
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If some people that uses joysticks have this kind of issues, would be good posting here their concerns about it.
Maybe Diaspora staff will do something about it. :)
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I would like to know which sticks they tested with. I'm thinking of getting one.
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I'm having no problems pegging them with my Extreme 3D Pro. Ship continues to "slide" when you mke heavy turns, but it interfers more with landing then with aiming.
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Saitek X65-f here.
As i said before, it needs more practice using sticks instead mouses, but i think you'll learn to fly a Viper pretty well after a while. :)
I'd like to point that i'm ok whit the current settings, but if for some people using sticks is a frustraction factor because the rotdamp,and players gave up to use them, maybe a little tweak would be done IMO.
I think we should try to make ''balanced'' joy users and mouse users.
Your feedback is very important regarding that.
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Watch my videos via YouTube, I use a CH HOTAS w/ zero issues, although it is a highly customized configuration. Increase your dead-zone.
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I have the setting just the opposite as you :
try to play at insane whit autoaim off...the rest are just words :D
A multiplaier match would be good to test your config,and i think some skilled mouse user can kill you every 10 seconds...no offense but that's the thrut.
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I have the setting just the opposite as you :
try to play at insane whit autoaim off...the rest are just words :D
A multiplaier match would be good to test your config,and i think some skilled mouse user can kill you every 10 seconds...no offense but that's the thrut.
And those who have been dogfighting for years against others? Where do we stand in all this? :D
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i mean that i'm afraid mouse users will have aiming advantages, i don't wanna to discuss your skills.
You're a good player, and i have a completely different stick that i had to heavily configure for make it work properly in Diaspora, and it works great...mine was just a more ''balancing discussions''
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Tested with the logitch Extreme, Extreme 3d, and Saitek X45 set. All three work. The Extreme 3d is the only one you're likely to find on an actual shelf somewhere. Else you have to order online for the X52 (the X45's replacement).
There is a dead zone with the joystick. The can be slightly overcome with adjusting settings using the joystick's software plus game settings, but I can fly fairly well even with about a decade's worth of rust in this style of game. The mouse is probably better for fine control movements, but I can hit targets just fine with the joystick. I just takes practice. Granted I grew up in the 1990's and space combat sims were all the rage with the Wing Commander and Xwing Series. FreeSpace 2 was the culmination of that genre sadly. (Well done game and the SCP folks have carried on nicely, but the fact we don't get AAA space combat titles anymore. Just look at the fact that Joysticks are pretty much a niche product these days for online retailers)
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That's true....i had to buy a joystick for a friend and i had a lot of problem find one of them in stores here in italy.... i had to buy it on ebay. :(
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i mean that i'm afraid mouse users will have aiming advantages.
*shrug* Mouse users will always have the aiming advantage, that's just how the controls work in FSO, this over shoot stuff or not.
Each controler type has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Someone made a huge post about it somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it.
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If you want to get rid of the mouse's advantage just to test how good mouse vs joystick is in a dogfight, then get weapons with a very limited range and dogfight with them (maybe 100 or 150 m?? not sure, would have to experiment)... and ofc no missiles.
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I think a joystick user will have an innate advantage when dodging and maneuvering because a joystick just naturally lends itself to broad, sweeping motions and quick, evasive ones. I'd guess that that could sort of cancel out the fine aiming controls of the mouse.
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I think it's joystick user evading mouse user in a close-range, turning dogfight is at advantage, until he increases range to where the accuracy of a mouse comes into play.
Mouse user evading joystick user in a close-range, turning dogfight is at a disadvantage, until he increases range to where the joystick's lack of accuracy comes into play (as long as he doesn't just fly in a straight line, lol).
Summary:
Long range = mouse has advantage, unless joystick has some easily accessible fine-tuned aiming controls.
Short range = joystick has advantage, unless mouse/joy script or similar is used.
...IMHO
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More to the point, when you get in close, you force a mouse user to have to move their arm in sweeping motions to keep up, and lift the mouse off the table to do it. A mouse user can't really keep up in <250m distances without extremely high dpi and a large surface to work on (or just typical "predict where they're going to go" experience, but all 3 get this). The fact joystick users can also roll to make even tighter turns and have better throttle control helps too.
At a distance of >500m, the mouse user should have no problems at all pegging them before they get close unless the joystick user is good enough to evade. Going head-on with a mouse user is typically suicide. You need to get to their sides somehow, force them to turn hard for long periods of time.
Keyboard takes turning to an extreme. You should be able to out turn anyone more or less your skill level on the other controller types. Problem is you lose almost all your ability to aim until you get good.
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Glad that almost all players fing the different hardware pretty much balanced :)
As i said before, i'm fine whit the current settings...seems that some people needs more aiming practice and all will be fine.
Myself too in some MP session had great results, but after having a lot of practice and set my stick as best i can for my flight style :)
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Mouse will always be limited by real estate where a joystick user can eventually learn to fight at range as well as have the mechanical advantage of infighting. Like previous stick drivers said, keep tweaking until you find the sweetspot settings. I have a friend with a mousepad that takes up half his desk to make those huge sweeping moves and flies like a demon in another game, so u are not disadvantaged, anymore than a stick is to at range fighting. Just keep tweaking and practicing to eliminate that frustration.
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I thought the drift on the joystick was a good go at semi-realism. since these ships are rcs controled, when you push the stick it activates a thruster on the nose, pushing it down, and when you let go of the stick either you or the flight computer must fire a thruster on the bottom of the nose to zero out your rotational velocity. I like it personaly, and got used to it after years of playing orbiter
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Mouse will always be limited by real estate where a joystick user can eventually learn to fight at range as well as have the mechanical advantage of infighting. Like previous stick drivers said, keep tweaking until you find the sweetspot settings. I have a friend with a mousepad that takes up half his desk to make those huge sweeping moves and flies like a demon in another game, so u are not disadvantaged, anymore than a stick is to at range fighting. Just keep tweaking and practicing to eliminate that frustration.
Also, some of us use trackballs. Moving your thumb isn't nearly as inconvenient as having to lift the mouse off of the desk. Also, just because of their nature, they can be set up to have excellent sensitivity and accuracy of motion within a small area while making small corrections, while still being able to make the cursor fly around at ludicrous speed. I always liked playing FS with a trackball, although I've been using one for over 15 years now.