[Akalabeth Angel]

Even after the Disney take over there are no less than five tiers of canon. The Clone Wars and Rebels series are canon, but they're not as canon as the movies are.

Big nope here. Clone Wars and Rebels are fully canon. The tiers of canon occurred before Disney, not after. The whole point of killing the EU was to simplify what is and isn't canon.

Oh yeah I see now that after presenting all the information on the wiki there's a sentence which basically says 'none of this matters anymore'.

Maybe if you had Kylo Ren waiving his hand around saying "you will tell the information that I want" and Po repeating his words you could assume it was the related, but that's not what happens.

But there you exactly tell the difference between light side and dark side methods of influencing somebody's mind (and that's the similarity between the two things: using the Force to influence a weak mind)
Light side: Kindly asking you to do something. A bit of handwaving, telling you what I want you to do/say.
Dark side: Simply forcing you to do it. Ripping the information from your mind without even caring about if you get hurt in any way.

Planting ideas in someone's conscious mind and forcing them to recall information from memory is not the same thing.
And again the problem is that Vader was never seen using these methods of interrogation, not in Episode IV and not in Episode II when the assassin was dying. "Tell us now" was all he had to say. Neither he nor Obi Wan showed any sort of interrogation method light or dark


Furthermore, both Jabba and Watto refer to the act as a "mind trick".  It's heavily implied that it's effect is not lessened versus strong-willed individuals, it simply does not work. Both these facts suggest that it is not a jedi forcing his will on someone else but simply as its stated, a jedi tricking someone into doing what they want. This is not what Kylo Ren was doing. At all.

[Erkhyan]

A QUICK REMINDER ABOUT WHAT IS CURRENTLY CANON AND WHAT IS NOT
since apparently some haven’t been paying attention

CANON

• The numbered episodes. Yes, all of them, even the ones you pretend never happened.
• The anthology movies, once they’re finally released.
• The Clone Wars. The CGI series, not the 2D one.
• The Clone Wars Legacy. Meaning, material that was supposed to be in the CGI series but didn’t, due to the series’ cancellation. That includes the comic series Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, eight TV story reels, and the novel Dark Disciple.
• Star Wars Rebels. Including all of the tie-in novels, short novels, and comic series.
• Every video game released after the Disney acquisition.
• Besides that, basically all new material (novels, comics, reference books, etc.) released since the Blade Squadron short stories that were published on April 22, 2014.

There are no “levels” of canon. Every publishing support has to be consistent with every other publishing support. Meaning that movies aren’t allowed to contradict canon novels, novels are not allowed to contradict comic series, etc., and all information that appears in a canon work is valid in the context of every other canon work.

NOT CANON
Basically everything not in the above list. Information and concepts from non-canon works only become canon if repeated in a canon work (for example, Tarkin’s first name, the concept of a Light Side, the New Republic, or the existence of the Interdictor Cruiser).

“IN CANON LIMBO”

• The MMO game The Old Republic uses a lot of non-canon information and concepts. Even though there is a current effort to make it more compatible with the canon timeline, bringing the entire game into canon would require retconning a lot of stuff. As a result, the MMO doesn’t officially count as canon yet.
• The Holiday Special. Might be canon, might not be. No one really dares say anything serious about it because it would require digging up some painful memories.

[Akalabeth Angel]

“IN CANON LIMBO”

• The MMO game The Old Republic uses a lot of non-canon information and concepts. Even though there is a current effort to make it more compatible with the canon timeline, bringing the entire game into canon would require retconning a lot of stuff. As a result, the MMO doesn’t officially count as canon yet.
• The Holiday Special. Might be canon, might not be. No one really dares say anything serious about it because it would require digging up some painful memories.

No love for the Ewok movies.

[MatthTheGeek]

or the existence of the Interdictor Cruiser

The prototype at least appears in Rebels. Second reading of your post reveals that's exactly what you meant. My bad.

[Erkhyan]

The Interdictor prototype’s first (catastrophic) use in canon was actually in the Tarkin novel. Which leads to the interesting conclusion that they spent roughly ten years refining the thing before they dared use it again. Ladies and gentlemen: Imperial efficiency.

[SypheDMar]

Maybe if you had Kylo Ren waiving his hand around saying "you will tell the information that I want" and Po repeating his words you could assume it was the related, but that's not what happens.

But there you exactly tell the difference between light side and dark side methods of influencing somebody's mind (and that's the similarity between the two things: using the Force to influence a weak mind)
Light side: Kindly asking you to do something. A bit of handwaving, telling you what I want you to do/say.
Dark side: Simply forcing you to do it. Ripping the information from your mind without even caring about if you get hurt in any way.

Since all the other things have been dealt with before my ****ty internet decided to work again I've got nothing to add there.

Sorry for not mentioning this sooner, but seeing this bulleted reminds me that the Jedi aren't all that great at being good guys when the Sith are involved:

ie The Jedi are not beyond torture and forcing their enemies to do things, even if it threatens the victim's mind.

Also notable since this is canon: You don't have to be force-sensitive to resist Jedi mind-tricks. Cad Bane is a talented Bounty Hunter, second to Jango Fett in fame, but not Force-sensitive. Ordinary people with strong enough WILL, it stands to reason, can prevent themselves from being forced to give any information to Kylo Ren.

[SypheDMar]

“IN CANON LIMBO”

• The MMO game The Old Republic uses a lot of non-canon information and concepts. Even though there is a current effort to make it more compatible with the canon timeline, bringing the entire game into canon would require retconning a lot of stuff. As a result, the MMO doesn’t officially count as canon yet.
• The Holiday Special. Might be canon, might not be. No one really dares say anything serious about it because it would require digging up some painful memories.

No love for the Ewok movies.

In a recent interview, I believe the developers of TOR states that it is part of the Legends continuity and not new canon so that it can do whatever it wants.

Ewoks are not canon as of this moment. Like the rest of EU, elements (parts or wholesale) may eventually be considered canon in the future, but we can safely pretend that they didn't happen.

Rule of thumb: If Lucasfilm Story Group hasn't declared something canon, it's not canon.

[Trivial Psychic]

Also notable since this is canon: You don't have to be force-sensitive to resist Jedi mind-tricks. Cad Bane is a talented Bounty Hunter, second to Jango Fett in fame, but not Force-sensitive. Ordinary people with strong enough WILL, it stands to reason, can prevent themselves from being forced to give any information to Kylo Ren.

I'm not sure if anyone here still wants to include the midi-chlorians in their explanations, but I would surmise that there are a far greater number of people in the galaxy that, while not having enough midi-chlorian concentration to be classified as force-sensitive and marked for later Jedi training (at least during the Republic days), they probably have a moderate concentration, enough to perhaps be considered "force latent".  Even with proper training, the best someone like this might expect to be able to do with the force would be some precognition to enhance their reflexes, mild telekinesis (like a pitcher being able to give the ball a bit of extra oomph), and possibly mind-trick resistance.  Aside from certain species that are mind-trick-immune, perhaps those that are not "weak-minded" also are force-latent.  Just something to consider.

[Dragon]

Remember that a degree of Force sensitivity is present in every living being (or almost every one, though Ysalamiri and the Vong are non-canon now). Everyone is "force lantent" to a degree. With enough willpower, whatever Force capability one has can presumably be put to use, such as resisting mind tricks and "having a (bad) feeling" about certain things.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Remember that a degree of Force sensitivity is present in every living being (or almost every one, though Ysalamiri and the Vong are non-canon now). Everyone is "force lantent" to a degree. With enough willpower, whatever Force capability one has can presumably be put to use, such as resisting mind tricks and "having a (bad) feeling" about certain things.

Citation needed.

[Crashdown117]

Remember that a degree of Force sensitivity is present in every living being (or almost every one, though Ysalamiri and the Vong are non-canon now). Everyone is "force lantent" to a degree. With enough willpower, whatever Force capability one has can presumably be put to use, such as resisting mind tricks and "having a (bad) feeling" about certain things.

Citation needed.

How about Qui-Gon saying this:

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force."

In the same scene he says something about midi-chlorians being present in every cell of every living being (couldn't find the exact dialogue lines for that) and that would lead to the conclusion that - since midi-chlorians are the key element for someone being Force sensitive - a small degree of Force sensitivity - not enough for somebody to become a Jedi  or Sith of course - is also present in every living being.

You're welcome.

[Aesaar]

I still can't believe that midichlorians are canon but Thrawn isn't.

[StarSlayer]

To be fair in ANH when Ben uses the Force to "not the droids your looking for" past the checkpoint he states:  "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." not the low on parasites.

[Dragon]

Further, saying that all people are low-level force users diminishes the relevance of Jedi and their opposites.
And saying that one's ability to resist is not based on willpower but latent force use diminishes individual importance as well because they succeed because of factors outside of themselves.

And ironically this statement is coming from the same guy (Dragon) who said he appreciates the "mystique" of the force.

You keep mistaking "Force user" for "person with Force potential". Force users use the Force. People can have a low-level sensitivity (which would manifest, for example, in "hunches" people have from time to time) without actually being able to consciously use the Force. They can still interact with it, however. "Will of the Force" isn't something that only the select few are involved in. Indeed, this is presumably why Force powers work on people in first place. You couldn't "mind trick" an inanimate object, or a droid (though there probably are alternate techniques for dealing with those), simply because they're not alive and thus don't have this connection to the Force.

It's been stated multiple times that all life has a connection to the Force. IIRC, Obi Wan said it in ANH (when explaining it to Luke), Qui-gon in TPM (that one was quoted a few posts back) and it might have been mentioned in TFH as well.

Actual Force users are special in that their connection to the Force is much stronger, thus enabling them to actually ask (or demand, in case of darksiders) something from the Force, as opposed to taking what it gives them. This is what "using the Force" is. Resisting mental probing is probably as far as using the Force goes for normal people, and even that probably doesn't go any further than blocking out the intrusion, even for the strongest-willed individual. It also seems like a very instinctive thing (boiling down to "not wanting to tell anything, very strongly"), see how Rey was able to turn the tables on Kylo during the interrogation and get into his mind not only without even the slightest bit of training, but by a complete accident. Some species are even completely immune, presumably by their instinctive "mind trick defense" being much stronger.

Indeed, it seems not to work more often than it does. Notably, both cases when it does are stormtroopers. Military training puts a lot of emphasis on obeying orders first and thinking later (ideally during carrying the order out and not long after that... ). It probably makes the troopers prone to falling for the mind trick. Making a weak mind is easier than making a strong but obedient one.

To be fair in ANH when Ben uses the Force to "not the droids your looking for" past the checkpoint he states:  "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." not the low on parasites.

It would make sense that you need strong will to call upon your Force connection in first place, however small. A weak minded person wouldn't even think about resisting. Also, any "regular" use of the Force seems to be based on strength of one's mind as well. See the scene in which Luke is trying to pull the X-Wing out of the swamp.

[Phantom Hoover]

I still can't believe that midichlorians are canon but Thrawn isn't.

Obviously Thrawn isn't canon, did you expect them to make a series of Thrawn films? That was never going to happen.

[Phantom Hoover]

The more important part here is that midiclorians might be 'canon' according to the implications of some press release by Disney, but I'll bet good money that they will never be mentioned in the new film series.

[zookeeper]

Which reminds me that one thing I really appreciate is that they never mention the word "sith". It's always just "the dark side"... as it should be.

[Dragon]

Nothing you say makes any sense.
Interacting with something is literally acting upon it, you cannot unconsciously act upon something.

You're just plain wrong on that count. First of all "interaction" doesn't mean you have a say in it, or that you know about it. The Force influences (and manipulates) you, so it must be aware of you. Therefore, your presence influences the Force (it wouldn't be doing what it's doing if you weren't here), while it influences you. In SW universe, this happens all the time, yet only the select few are aware of it.

You certainly can act upon things unconsciously. In fact, you're doing this all the time. Your body is doing a whole lot of things unconsciously. You're digesting foods and pumping blood through your veins without thinking about it, you're not even aware of this until someone tells you. You can't control this directly without special training. Your body unconsciously acts upon things all the time (ever had your mouth water when you smell something tasty?). Why would interacting with the Force be any different? What I say does make sense it you bothered to think about it for a while. Probably should've stated it like that earlier, but I think that resisting mind probing/manipulation is a reflexive reaction, much like the aforementioned mouth watering. If conditions are right (being mind-probed, not wanting to be, or smelling something, wanting to eat it, respectively) it triggers with appropriate intensity, but a normal person can't induce it directly.

Inanimate objects do have a connection with the force. Yoda explicitly says that force is within trees and rocks, the land, the X-wing in Empire Strikes back.
The fact you cannot mind trick a rock isn't because it's not connected with the force, it's because it's a rock.

I always took the line as stating that Dagobah itself is "saturated" with the Force (BTW, trees are alive and the land on Dagobah might very well be, too. You can presumably interact with what passes for tree's "mind" using the Force. It's not as ridiculous a statement as you probably think it is). Remember, it is not only in the living beings, some places also seem to have an "aura" of sorts. Does that mean they're "alive"? It's never stated, but it might. It does seem that it's the living beings who need the Force, not the other way around (a nice bonus of that reasoning would be that it'd imply that the Force is far more than just Midichlorians being somewhere or not).

[CountBuggula]

Ok guys.  I had some busy days so there was an awful lot added to this thread that I had to catch up on.  And I have to say I'm disappointed.  Let me start by saying this:

I HATE censorship.  It drives me nuts.  But in a public forum like this we need to have rules to keep things civil, and after my last warning, things got significantly worse.  Consequently, there are a number of posts that have been deleted due to ad hominem attacks and profanity.  I was serious about being respectful, and that sort of behavior will not be tolerated here.

I'm stopping short of completely locking this thread, but will do so if things get out of hand again.  I will say however that the Vader vs Kylo Ren argument is finished.  If you want to continue arguing about it, go start a thread elsewhere.  So with that out of the way, moving on:

I still can't believe that midichlorians are canon but Thrawn isn't.

I can't agree more.  I weep a bit every time midichlorians are mentioned.

The more important part here is that midiclorians might be 'canon' according to the implications of some press release by Disney, but I'll bet good money that they will never be mentioned in the new film series.

This is my best hope as well.  Goes along with what Zookeeper said about "Sith" vs "Dark Side".  Good stuff.

And in conclusion, I'm just going to leave this here.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Which reminds me that one thing I really appreciate is that they never mention the word "sith". It's always just "the dark side"... as it should be.

I'm pretty sure they mention the Sith in Force Awakens do they not? I though evil hologram#2 says that at some point or, someone lists off a bunch of force-users.

I always took the line as stating that Dagobah itself is "saturated" with the Force (BTW, trees are alive and the land on Dagobah might very well be, too. You can presumably interact with what passes for tree's "mind" using the Force. It's not as ridiculous a statement as you probably think it is). Remember, it is not only in the living beings, some places also seem to have an "aura" of sorts. Does that mean they're "alive"? It's never stated, but it might. It does seem that it's the living beings who need the Force, not the other way around (a nice bonus of that reasoning would be that it'd imply that the Force is far more than just Midichlorians being somewhere or not).

The main point is that not everything is explained by "the force".
If everything is dependent on the force then people cease to matter.

How did Leia resist interrogation? The force
Why did Han come back to save Luke? The force
Why did the Droids find Luke? The force
Why did Porkins have to die? The force

Nothing matters.

Attributing the force to everyone person's success, action or failure is the most dehumanizing philosophy you can have.
Basically the force becomes God's Plan and people cease to have free will.  But people forget that even in the Christian philosophy, people have free will. They're free to choose or reject God. Without that choice, life is meaningless, and similarly without choice in Star Wars, with everything attributed to the force, everything is meaningless there as well.

Also it's explicitly stated multiple times that living beings create the force, not the other way around so it's not even a god-like entity it's more like a  connection between people and each-other and the environment.