Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 589018 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.
I always enjoy it when citizens constantly move up the 'real' date that SC started development because the actual one doesn't match their internal narrative.  This time next year, development won't have 'really' started until Fall 2014.

I really don't see why you people are always so eager to change that date.  If development only really started in Fall 2013, then that means that CIG spent one whole year spending crowdfunded money on **** that doesn't matter, and you think this makes them look better?

And if you really think they're separating subscriber and pledge money, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.  CIG have shown on repeated occasions that they'll take any opportunity they see to milk their backers for more cash.  I'm not even convinced their pledge counter is trustworthy.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 03:01:44 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he

It's out actually ... ;)

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
i bet you 500 space dollars that it's still a buggy heap of ****

cig have hit on a winning strategy here
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.
Because it doesn't matter.  I'm not trying to figure out how much money they have left because, even with current $2M routine operating costs, I don't know how much all their other crap cost.  I don't know how many 800$ tables they bought for their studios (except that it was at least 6), I don't know how much they paid their celebrities, and I don't know how much their new office and three mocap studios cost.  It's a fruitless exercise.

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
I thought they released 2.0 three weeks ago? 

But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

Shame his $100M can't make ships not fly like ****.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 01:36:23 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Rhys

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
There's enough salt in this thread to cool a fission reactor.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.

Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available

« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 02:09:58 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Even if the game never crashed it would still be unplayable because the core flight mechanics are just bad. Luckily, it crashes very often to save you from having to actually play it.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.
That wasn't at CitCon.  They released nothing at CitCon.  They actually managed to disappoint even me.

And now they're rereleasing something they released three weeks ago and are getting praised for it.  Mkay.  Whatever.

Quote
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.
Assuming it ever gets finished.  So far, they're taking the Duke Nukem Forever approach to development.

  

Offline newman

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.

Mh ... I'd say there is quite a lot of exaggeration on both sides of the argument (i.e. bestest game ever vs. totally unplayable) and your post is a quite good example.

Turn your HOTAS in a mouse? LOL ;) Lay of the vitriol for a while please :P


My take? So yes it may be buggy and the flight model needs work, but on the other hand I did have seriously awesome expieriences in it already, even back in AC, pushing the flight model to see what you can actually do, maneuvering around those large structures weaving in and out of the nooks and crannys and circling those large spines with my ships nose pointed directly towards it - you couldn't do any of that with the traditional "planes in space" flight model of old SpaceSims. Also Vanduul Swarm, while silly at times, was fracking intense at other times.

So... less exaggeration please. It's reached a point where it's just become silly.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 04:42:35 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

I'm not even sure at this point if half the stuff he promised is possible even with 10x their current budget. He has actually managed to out-molyneux Peter freaking Molyneux!
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.

I cannot comment on joystick sensitivity curve issues because I play with mouse, tough.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 08:21:31 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Kszyhu

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole.

That's the matter of opinion. I absolutely loved newtonian flight model from second I-War, and I couldn't stand more than 10 minutes of flight in AC 1.3. I didn't play SC in 2.0, so I can't comment what changed, and I can agree that E:D's flight model is average at best in the main game,  but really enjoyable in CQC.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 11:09:19 am by Kszyhu »

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.



No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:



They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.  How they manage to make animations this bad despite building 3 mocap studios and hiring two others in incomprehensible.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 10:17:28 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:



They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is just a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.

However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15031-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20

G-forces and G-LOC dont affect people in ships because physical impulses across different physics grids (global to local etc.) are not yet implemented. The same reason why weapon impacts do not affect physics inside ships yet. This will be corrected in the future.

Regarding your quote from 2012, lol indeed. If there is one totally valid criticism of SC, it is that it will be considerably delayed from original plan. This is due to a combination of expanding the scope of the game and overly optimistic original schedule. But, I dont give a damn if the game takes 2 years or 6 years to develop, as long as the end result is good. And I believe SC will be a great game indeed, despite not everything being ideal..
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 10:29:20 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels.

Quote
However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.
Small fighters IRL weigh 20 tonnes.  Ships in SC feel like they don't even weigh 1.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 10:38:01 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels.

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.

Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 11:39:04 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels.

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.  It happens all the time with ships of all types on the landing pads.  But I do think it's amusing that you think typical ship behavior is a physics bug.  Speaks very highly of the game, doesn't it?


Quote
Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed.  They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models.  To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.

Er, ships in Elite 'fly like spaceships should'.  It's not a perfectly Newtonian flight model, but neither is SC.  Actually, it feels a lot more like a well-represented physical environment than SC does because inertia is actually a thing you need to deal with, unlike SC.  Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D  is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is.  You haven't played it, have you?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 11:50:21 am by Aesaar »

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
The difference is that Diaspora didn't tie spaceship behaviour to the physics engine and had a much easier time tweaking the mechanics to make it more fun. The fighters also had a real feeling of weight to them, something the FSO engine does very well.

SC on the other hand feels like Descent but without the small indoor levels that actually made Descent exciting.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded