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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: The E on September 18, 2017, 11:25:06 am

Title: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on September 18, 2017, 11:25:06 am
https://boingboing.net/2017/09/18/ccleaner-popular-computer-cle.html

You know, I always harboured a bit of distrust against registry cleaners, driver optimizers and other such applications.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Herra Tohtori on September 18, 2017, 12:48:53 pm
To clarify, CCleaner itself was compromised by hackers and then being used as a platform to deliver other payloads.

That said, this does work as a reminder that installing tools like registry cleaners, driver optimizers, driver cleaners, or anything that requires administrative access to your computer, is only ever as reliable as the people making it. If their security is compromised, your security will be as well.

With that in mind I think it's best to have as little programs of this type on your computer as possible. There's no real need for them anyway, Win7 and Win10 are nothing like older Windows operating systems in terms of registry bloat, and most drivers uninstall cleanly enough to not require any driver cleaning - and "optimization" of the drivers isn't actually a thing as far as I know.

The second reason why automated "optimization" tools should be discouraged is that they are something of a black box. They rarely tell you what exactly they do to "optimize" your computer, which can lead to problems developing at some point. If you really need to clean up things from registry, it's better to use a manual registry cleaner such as RegCleaner. And if some driver isn't working right, you're better off updating it manually than entrusting driver management to third party software. Actually, even entrusting driver management to Windows Updates is something I personally wouldn't do.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 18, 2017, 01:34:30 pm
apparently the malware only worked on 32-bit systems which means that what we have here, gentlemen, is lols within lols
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: CT27 on September 18, 2017, 03:26:20 pm
I've heard that since I use 64bit Windows and 64bit CCleaner, I should be safe (I also did a MSE and Malwarebytes scan and they came up clean).

I think that makes me okay in this instance.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Grizzly on September 18, 2017, 07:27:51 pm
Since the creators update, Windows 10 has it's own "automatically delete temporary files, automatically delete files in the bin if they have been around for a month". It's hidden under system>storage.

It's had this before but it wasn't automated then.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 19, 2017, 02:17:01 am
I wonder if this affects the mobile app too.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: jr2 on September 19, 2017, 08:58:42 am
I wonder if this affects the mobile app too.

IIRC, wasn't it just one of their servers that was compromised?  So no, their app would use Google servers.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on September 21, 2017, 06:12:07 am
It gets better (https://www.wired.com/story/ccleaner-malware-targeted-tech-firms)
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: jr2 on September 22, 2017, 07:13:51 am
Darned space-pirates, it was.

(http://images.movieplayer.it/images/2008/06/23/un-immagine-tratta-dal-film-wall-e-il-nuovo-lavoro-degli-studi-pixar-80360.jpg)

Spoiler:
Cisco and security firm Kaspersky have both pointed out that the malware element in the tainted version of CCleaner shares some code with a sophisticated hacking group known as Group 72, or Axiom, which security firm Novetta named a Chinese government operation in 2015.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Charismatic on September 26, 2017, 02:11:31 am
I own CCleaner Pro and i trust it. Been using it for years.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: jr2 on September 26, 2017, 03:41:12 pm
I own CCleaner Pro and i trust it. Been using it for years.

The point wasn't that CCleaner is malware by the authors, but that the authors website that distributed it got hacked and infected the files being distributed.  However, the malware only worked on x86 (32-bit) Windows, so most people are probably safe. 

The reason so many companies got hit is that they're notorious cheapskates and were still running old 32-bit OSes because "why not, it still works".  I mean, the company I work for makes millions in profits per quarter at this plant, has locations worldwide, and is still running old Windows XP machines with P4 3.2GHz HT and 1GB RAM, with Windows XP, for some of their workstations (not talking mission-critical offline stuff, I mean data entry workstations).  Running full admin rights, logged on to a domain, at least they have Kaspersky AV.  All except like 3 workstations (out of maybe a dozen) are now Windows 7 at least, but I dunno if it's x64 or x86.  These are the knuckle heads that won't replace something ahead of time, either because "the line's too busy to shut down", or if it's not "it's not busy enough to justify the cost", and then pay a buttload of overtime to disgruntled employees who wanted their time off when the line breaks in the middle of a huge order and they have to make up for the down time.  And rather than cutting 2-500K for a replacement line, they'll but multiple 10K checks all year long to keep it limping along at half of normal production speed (when it's actually running).

There's running lean, and then there's sheer stupidity.  All they care about is next quarter's profits, which is what happens when you're owned by an investment firm that only cares about milking the place for a few years and then selling it on to the next investment firm.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 26, 2017, 04:11:56 pm
You think the hackers can't compromise the downloads for the pro version? As far as we know they didn't, this time, but that's luck, not a basis for trust.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Charismatic on September 29, 2017, 04:19:07 pm
Not saying that. I just was saying I own and use CCleaner. Tho they got hacked twice sofar it is not a reoccurring problem. And as the articles said, only specific versions/builds were affected.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 06, 2017, 07:12:39 am
The title is wrong then, it's not actually malware, it was hijacked and made to also work as malware for a month recently only. I'm always suspicious of things I can't control but CCleaner as many other Registry cleaners have a backup option I recommend to use always and automatically every time a cleaning is executed to always roll back any action that resulted detrimental to the system. I think this is like anything in life, it should be used if it's convenient enough, and always evaluating its reach and consequences; from the backups and system performance you could see if it really useful, therefore necessary if want maximum performance, depends what you need/want; a radical yes or no, generally is not recommended for anything I think, except in situations proven adverse, like bloatware or malware piggybacked or damaging software like RegCure, that in Windows XP and previous Windows will eventually, sometimes at first run, damage your Registry permanently even after restoring a backup.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 06, 2017, 07:21:58 am
I disagree. CCleaner and other "make PC faster" programs are malware. In this particular instance, CCleaner was an actual malware vector; Even without that though, using them means trusting the manufacturers to know what they are doing (which, in the past, they've been shown to be fallible on). I am not going to do that, given that the benefits of these programs are almost certainly placebo-like.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 06, 2017, 07:42:26 am
Of course you disagree, you're not exactly open minded to other people's perspectives I have seen in the past, and your definition of malware (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=definition+of+malware&t=seamonkey&ia=definition) is wrong according to most people defining it to begin with, fallible are all humans, therefore the need to improve Windows Registry structure, and of course would have bug and sometimes damaging code, but that's common to any software, what sets it apart is the intention and the general behavior and consequences, which are not coherent with malware definition. And it's not really placebo, it's a Registry level optimization, so it's not a general constant improvement, like overclocking, it depends on Registry dependency and usage, and it makes sense: less information in the Registry will cause less information to be searched or filter, therefore accelerating Registry usage performance, and so it shows
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 06, 2017, 08:08:42 am
The only people I trust to know what they are doing with regards to optimizing the registry are Microsoft -- Who, in their official guidelines for Windows app development, make it very clear that the registry is an outdated and bad mechanism for storing program configuration data that should not be used.

Sure, we define malware usually as programs designed to inflict harm, which CCleaner isn't. But what CCleaner actually is is an attempt to exploit the cargo-cult level of understanding people who have used Windows have developed. It promises to make a PC faster by "cleaning up the registry", when the registry is never searched for information during regular usage (because you do not need to search the registry for anything: Every bit of information the programmer wants to look up is at a known location within the registry). So yes, it is a placebo: It does not make your PC faster during everyday usage. You're not going to free up appreciable amounts of processing power if your registry is less full.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 06, 2017, 08:40:56 am
Maybe today as computers become multi-thread/-core aware, not much processing power is perceivable by the average user, but on Windows XP times where CPUs had only 1 core and at best 2 threads, it was, you could and I have measured the boot time in seconds and the saving was a few of them, also general loading of programs, where they access the most the registry, and general usage of them and the PC in general, I was a PC tech on those times and still are and make at random times extensive use and measurements of some workloads on a user's PC before and after and there is a measurable difference maybe at technical level but there it is, also Windows uses the Registry to boot and access important system-related functioning, I recommend you activate a background Registry monitoring software so you realize how much it's really used, and yeah it's an archaic way to store application info but that's how Windows is structured, also you can deny access to  the registry to an application at install time and probably won't work well if at all, Winnows without the Registry or when it's damaged enough won't boot. Also the Registry is a string based access database, so an app searches in a hierarchical tree for the path it tries to access, so the number of strings a tree branch has affects CPU performance proportionally, until it's cached in RAM, at which point it'll be read and written on RAM for a later deferred disk write, you can observe this phenomenon in the cleaning software after a second scan to the Registry, this is the reason Disk Optimization software and even System Optimization software will defragment the Registry files so the slow HDD access be as little as possible. Denying this reality is simply intellectually dishonest, you will probably persist in your idea but that doesn't make it real.

How significant it is, you can test it with a cleaning app whore Registry Back up or with a Windows Restore Registry back up and then making the cleaning and see how much it improved, you can restore the Registry to its original state from the backup. The improvement is marginal mostly, unless is an old and poorly maintained Windows installation, but that's a subjective decision for the user to make. I personally would like the Registry would be used for Windows only, and all apps including all Microsoft apps have their own configuration files, but ironically Windows Registry is improved over time, so why Microsoft improves it so Windows and apps have a bigger functional dependency of it, make it more complex with longer strings with more sub-strings instead of less? is beyond my comprehension, specially when the Microsoft statement intention that you gave indicates eventually getting rid of it. Currently the Registry in recent Windows versions have gone passed the 100 MB mark (https://s19.postimg.org/yekbbueub/Untitled.gif) and beyond, that's  also the RAM used to cache it and would be a lot less if apps and many Windows backward compatibility wasn't so faithfully carried on, I wonder if they check which parts need to be carried on for the next Windows version, anyway I have checked at random times app dependency on the Registry and it's vastly used, Registry monitoring software I have used reports thousands of accesses after windows and the apps I use are loaded, the Registry com from Windows 1.0 which was originally a Windows-only configuration system, then expanded to Windows apps and then to certain apps and then to all apps, so Microsoft recommendation come like FEMA aid: too little too late, but unlike hurricane disasters, Microsoft could still plot a course to limit the Registry  only to Windows, and keep it highly optimized, and apps can have some other mechanism to share configuration options if at all, and the need for registry cleaner is gone, as it is a small performance bottleneck
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 06, 2017, 09:07:53 am
Maybe today as computers become multi-thread/-core aware, not much processing power is perceivable by the average user, but on Windows XP times where CPUs had only 1 core and at best 2 threads, it was, you could and I have measured the boot time in seconds and the saving was a few of them,

So? As you point out yourself, this was on XP. We do not use XP anymore, for the most part. That's what I meant by cargo-cult behaviour; just because something was a good idea 17 years ago doesn't mean that it's still a good idea today.

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also general loading of programs, where they access the most the registry, and general usage of them and the PC in general, I was a PC tech on those times and still are and make at random times extensive use and measurements of some workloads on a user's PC before and after and there is a measurable difference maybe at technical level but there it is, also Windows uses the Registry to boot and access important system-related functioning, I recommend you activate a background Registry monitoring software so you realize how much it's really used, and yeah it's an archaic way to store application info but that's how Windows is structured, also you can deny access to  the registry to an application at install time and probably won't work well if at all, Winnows without the Registry or when it's damaged enough won't boot.

Which is why the registry is a deprecated way to store things. Sure, the registry is accessed a lot, but can you point to an actual statistic that shows improvements in access times? You see, the registry is self-optimizing to an extent; values that are often accessed are kept cached for quick access, and while it isn't as fast as straight RAM access (the only source I could find was Raymond Chen's article here (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20060222-11/?p=32193)) a simple read access shouldn't take that long. Even a full open-read-write-close cycle takes at most 100k cycles (presumably when updating a non-cached value), and more commonly only 15k to 20k. This isn't something that is worth optimizing when the tools that are doing the optimization have as large question marks for safety attached as CCleaner et al have.

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Also the Registry is a string based access database, so an app searches in a hierarchical tree for the path it tries to access, so the number of strings a tree branch has affects CPU performance proportionally, until it's cached in RAM, at which point it'll be read and written on RAM for a later deferred disk write, you can observe this phenomenon in the cleaning software after a second scan to the Registry, this is the reason Disk Optimization software and even System Optimization software will defragment the Registry files so the slow HDD access be as little as possible. Denying this reality is simply intellectually dishonest, you will probably persist in your idea but that doesn't make it real

I am not denying that reality. I am saying that it doesn't matter. The vast majority of registry accesses you encounter will be made to values cached in RAM, and for the few that aren't, the registry isn't a performance consideration. In normal operation, it stores hundreds of thousands of values; removing a few hundred will not impact performance at all.

And as for defragmentation: It is bull****. Windows is better at managing disk fragmentation than any external program could ever hope to be, because it actually knows where and how files need to be stored on disk for best performance (and, of course, on modern systems with SSDs, fragmentation just isn't a thing anymore).

Further reading: https://www.howtogeek.com/162683/pc-cleaning-apps-are-a-scam-heres-why-and-how-to-speed-up-your-pc/
https://www.howtogeek.com/171633/why-using-a-registry-cleaner-wont-speed-up-your-pc-or-fix-crashes/
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 06, 2017, 10:33:18 am
As I wrote on my second paragraph on my previous post, it's a marginal improvement, and left instructions how to do the testing. Don't have any stats as I the information I collected from my testing was only for me, nobody cared for it anyway. Probably you never took time to make any measurements or to make maintenance to hundreds of PCs over years for a living, well for you it doesn't matter, probably you're the average user/gamer and you're fine with your zero Registry maintenance  and mediocre Windows Defragmentation, and yeah you haven't measure the Registry usage and it's access, and you really don't care about it and yeah the gain is minimum but you shouldn't say at all since you haven't even made the testing, and is there, little but it does exist, so affirming it's not at all impacting performance is incorrect, and BTW performance on a PC is build like this, a piece at the time at some point. Yes I have read those articles, they have truths, half-truths and jumping to conclusions too, just like you're doing it here. Just do that 1 testing, install a Backgroound Registry Monitoring access app,just to count the accesses and the amount of data modified

As for the desfragmentation, Windows file defragmentation measured by PerfectDisk and other defrasggers analysis after the fact show file is mostly good, but the way it moves the files is inefficient and a few files are not defragmented properly or at all, like folders, and system files are never optimized, Perfect Disk solves all these problems with a normal defragmentation, except the system files, moves all folders to a single location, that are defragged on offline boot mode, for a privileged disk access, and prevent a lot of Windows simple and inefficient disk write, and has a background defragmentation, but if you want to accumulate small inefficiencies and say it doesn't matter OK, it's your time
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 06, 2017, 12:05:59 pm
As I wrote on my second paragraph on my previous post, it's a marginal improvement, and left instructions how to do the testing. Don't have any stats as I the information I collected from my testing was only for me, nobody cared for it anyway. Probably you never took time to make any measurements or to make maintenance to hundreds of PCs over years for a living, well for you it doesn't matter, probably you're the average user/gamer and you're fine with your zero Registry maintenance  and mediocre Windows Defragmentation, and yeah you haven't measure the Registry usage and it's access, and you really don't care about it and yeah the gain is minimum but you shouldn't say at all since you haven't even made the testing, and is there, little but it does exist, so affirming it's not at all impacting performance is incorrect, and BTW performance on a PC is build like this, a piece at the time at some point. Yes I have read those articles, they have truths, half-truths and jumping to conclusions too, just like you're doing it here. Just do that 1 testing, install a Backgroound Registry Monitoring access app,just to count the accesses and the amount of data modified

dude, I'm a developer of Windows applications. It is, quite literally, my job to know these things and to read the documentation MS produces for Windows to understand what the best practices are and why they are that way.

I actually did run the numbers. In a ~30 minute trace, ProcMon captured something like 6.7 million registry events, using up 38.2 seconds of processing time in total. An average registry event, therefore, takes about 5 microseconds to resolve. If I apply CCleaner, how does that number change, and how far does it have to change in order to register as a noticeable improvement to the user? I would posit that even cutting that time in half wouldn't be noticeable.

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As for the desfragmentation, Windows file defragmentation measured by PerfectDisk and other defrasggers analysis after the fact show file is mostly good, but the way it moves the files is inefficient and a few files are not defragmented properly or at all, like folders, and system files are never optimized, Perfect Disk solves all these problems with a normal defragmentation, except the system files, moves all folders to a single location, that are defragged on offline boot mode, for a privileged disk access, and prevent a lot of Windows simple and inefficient disk write, and has a background defragmentation, but if you want to accumulate small inefficiencies and say it doesn't matter OK, it's your time

You do know that the Windows defragger has information about file usage that other defraggers do not have, and is optimized to put frequently accessed files on the fastest part of the disk, not to replicate the logical layout of files into the physical layout as those other defraggers do?
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 06, 2017, 08:18:12 pm
Yes E, I suspected you were a professional developer as you're part of the SCP and I know very little of programming and realize that the original FS game was very complex and the improvements are as such or more, so you need professionals IMO to manage that development level. Anyway stats and needs/wants are the way to go as I wrote before depending on what you're OK with: according to your stats: 38.2s is 2.12%of 30 mins, and the 5.7 μs average, was that from boot time? or you just activated ProcMon at a time after boot? anyway I want -1% of time usage if I can help it, you don't, it's everyone choosing of their  time and performance limits, as wrote before, I run Rosetta@Home and play Planetside 2 and my hardware is far from the latest my components are at least 7 years old and I want to extract the maximum performance and has always been my goal to do so with any PC I make maintenance.

Also the Registry carry errors even on a new Windows installations, that shouldn't happen IMO, not in digital computing environments, they can be avoided and they can cause malfunctioning, but there they are, so that's another reason to clean the Registry. The way a Registry path is searched in by branch hierarchy, so why have to search on useless/unnecessary data when can be cleaned off? For me that's not OK, it's a principle for me, therefore not acceptable if I can help it.

Security: As you might know from the articles you pointed out Piriform is owned by Avast!, Avast! being 1 of the top PC security software worldwide, really high detection and definition update updates, offers full PC security for free, asking you pay for it to support them and if you need assistance from them, pretty sure they won't make this mistake again, and I suspect they were tracking the computer physical location and making counter stealth hacking so they needed to leave the infection for a month or so I think. CCleaner is the least invasiv and more secure cleaner I have tried, I tried like 7 of them, I currently use 3 of them, AVG Performance and IObit Advance System Care, and they overlap mostly but CCleaner tends to be subset of the cleaning set the other 2 use, so it's the safest option of all, you'll hardly lose any, if at all, functionality with CClaner, so not really a risk and you can roll back everything,not really a security risk.

Defrag: you mean this info? NTFS file system journaling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Journaling) yeah yet it fails, to do an excellent job, for files Windows defragments really good and yet PerfectDisk does it the same, and goes beyond that with access to USN Journal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USN_Journal) and Prefetcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefetcher) and maybe even the NTFS file system journaling because PerfectDisk runs on a MSC (Microsoft System Console) Window and Wikipedia  mentions an API, so maybe that's why does it better, and I know it is so, I have tested both of them, at least twice, I have no complaints from Perfect disk specially because Windows Defrag doesn't do this (https://s19.postimg.org/4bfhi9wmr/Untitled2.gif) on the background.

That you're a professional developer doesn't invalidate any of what I have posted about the Registry and defragmentation dude, my data and experience confirms it. To be fair, I have to admit I have screwed my Registry a couple of times making Windows unbootable, by using those 3 Registry cleaners twice or thrice in different occasions, that's why I only install CCleaner and AVG Performance, IObit is Chinese, nothing is made without  oppressive CHinese Gov. permission, and apparently China was behind that attack, and IOBit cleaning is the most intrusive of all, an no problems since then, so I might be right
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 07, 2017, 03:55:31 am
Yes E, I suspected you were a professional developer as you're part of the SCP and I know very little of programming and realize that the original FS game was very complex and the improvements are as such or more, so you need professionals IMO to manage that development level. Anyway stats and needs/wants are the way to go as I wrote before depending on what you're OK with: according to your stats: 38.2s is 2.12%of 30 mins, and the 5.7 μs average, was that from boot time? or you just activated ProcMon at a time after boot? anyway I want -1% of time usage if I can help it, you don't, it's everyone choosing of their  time and performance limits, as wrote before, I run Rosetta@Home and play Planetside 2 and my hardware is far from the latest my components are at least 7 years old and I want to extract the maximum performance and has always been my goal to do so with any PC I make maintenance.

Then move Windows to an SSD. You can get much, much more of a performance upgrade by doing that than by doing literally anything else. You think the 2% of time the PC spent in doing registry things worth optimizing? Then optimizing the much, much higher portion of time it spends doing disc IO is even more important.

Yes, I do not care for those 2%. Why? Because I have an SSD. My motherboard takes longer to POST than Windows does to boot.

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Also the Registry carry errors even on a new Windows installations, that shouldn't happen IMO, not in digital computing environments, they can be avoided and they can cause malfunctioning, but there they are, so that's another reason to clean the Registry. The way a Registry path is searched in by branch hierarchy, so why have to search on useless/unnecessary data when can be cleaned off? For me that's not OK, it's a principle for me, therefore not acceptable if I can help it.

And the fact that a registry cleaner finds "issues" on a fresh install doesn't make you curious as to why that is? Do you seriously think that the people making CCleaner et al know more about the registry than MS does? When they've proven in the past that they really, really don't?

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Security: As you might know from the articles you pointed out Piriform is owned by Avast!, Avast! being 1 of the top PC security software worldwide, really high detection and definition update updates, offers full PC security for free, asking you pay for it to support them and if you need assistance from them, pretty sure they won't make this mistake again, and I suspect they were tracking the computer physical location and making counter stealth hacking so they needed to leave the infection for a month or so I think. CCleaner is the least invasiv and more secure cleaner I have tried, I tried like 7 of them, I currently use 3 of them, AVG Performance and IObit Advance System Care, and they overlap mostly but CCleaner tends to be subset of the cleaning set the other 2 use, so it's the safest option of all, you'll hardly lose any, if at all, functionality with CClaner, so not really a risk and you can roll back everything,not really a security risk.

So you're losing more performance by doing superfluous AV checking than you do by not optimizing the registry. Good to know.
Also, if Avast is so good at security, how did Piriform's software release channels get compromised so hard?

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That you're a professional developer doesn't invalidate any of what I have posted about the Registry and defragmentation dude, my data and experience confirms it. To be fair, I have to admit I have screwed my Registry a couple of times making Windows unbootable, by using those 3 Registry cleaners twice or thrice in different occasions, that's why I only install CCleaner and AVG Performance, IObit is Chinese, nothing is made without  oppressive CHinese Gov. permission, and apparently China was behind that attack, and IOBit cleaning is the most intrusive of all, an no problems since then, so I might be right

I also once screwed up my system by using a registry cleaner. So I stopped using registry cleaners. Haven't had a registry corruption issue since.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 06:08:40 am
Regardless of the mass storage type, the Registry has errors, things connected to nothing, wrong configurations and so on, things that shouldn't be there, you assume those errors are still good because Microsoft did it and let them there, argument from authority, an error is an error, junk is junk, no matter who put it there, it shouldn't be for stability and functionality reasons, they slow the system? the more reason for them not to be there, IMO, they're classified as error for a reason, have you ever thought Microsoft maybe doesn't care to fix those errors for a reason? because there are registry cleaners? I have spoken to Microsoft support and they rely on external software for example to retrieve deleted Outlook messages when they have been purged from the Trash bin.

They wouldn't be doing the Registry cleaning if they didn't know about it, of course they do, you're jumping to conclusions, some know more than others

What superfluous AV checking are you talking about? and why is that relevant? you mean the AV real-time scanner? Oh I have it disabled of course, I don't use them if I'm not checking anything unknown, so you'd be wrong assuming that out of ignorance, don't go there dude, it's always bad. About the hacking, well that's something you'd have to ask to Avast! <- BTW that's how the product is named, with the exclamation mark, I'm not angry hahaha, at least it was originally, maybe I shouldn't use it that way, hmm...

Which cleaner you used to screw your Registry? was it CCleaner? I have using Registry cleaners for 2 decades, and only managed to screw my Registry twice, they're pretty safe, and the bad ones are identified already, like RegCure, guaranteed will screw up your Registry specially in WinXP where you can delete even system keys, since Win 7/Vista have protected sections. Also never made more than 1 pass on a client's PC, but users manage to screw their own Windows installation on their own, and the experiments always done on my PC first and used extensively. BTW here is what I CCleaned recently on my clean Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit installation, I have checked it out and everything seems valid, why don't you check it out and tell me if something shouldn't be deleted proving Piriform and me wrong?

Registry backup 1 (https://pastebin.com/Xu56U4WC)
Rebooted and then re-scanned
Registry backup 2 (https://pastebin.com/Ly2SH9BA)
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 07, 2017, 06:53:51 am
Registry cleaning is dubious at best but is not even the main purpose of CCleaner. CCleaner is mainly used to delete temporary files, histories, logs and so on. With CCEnhancer addon it supports cleaning junk from over 1000 programs, not just to speed up the computer but mainly for privacy reasons and to recover space.

https://singularlabs.com/software/ccenhancer/

I use it regularly for many years and never had an issue. Benefits are debatable but it is not "actual malware".
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 07, 2017, 07:29:22 am
Regardless of the mass storage type, the Registry has errors, things connected to nothing, wrong configurations and so on, things that shouldn't be there, you assume those errors are still good because Microsoft did it and let them there, argument from authority, an error is an error, junk is junk, no mother who put it there, it shouldn't be for stability and functionality reasons, they slow the system? the more reason for them not to be there, IMO, they're classified as error for a reason, have you ever thought Microsoft maybe doesn't care to fix those errors for a reason? because there are registry cleaners? I have spoken to Microsoft support and they rely on external software for example to retrieve deleted Outlook messages when they have been purged from the Trash bin.

They're classified as errors for a reason, yes. The reason is that CCleaner needs to show you that it's doing something, that there is a benefit to what it does. Even if there isn't.

Anyway, I'm done talking to you about this. You want to prove me wrong? Then show me the benchmarks. Show me the difference these things make using hard numbers.

Here's a benchmark I found (https://www.pcworld.com/article/2029460/panacea-or-pariah-five-pc-cleanup-utilities-put-to-the-test.html):
(https://images.techhive.com/images/article/2013/02/benchmarks-100027086-orig.png)
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 08:05:29 am
Well I never wanted to prove you wrong, as I wrote it's up to each person and their preferences. Well I gave you the evidence for you to prove Priiform and me wrong, you wrote you read a lot of Microsoft technical things, so the .reg files I posted shouldn't be a problem for you and yet you won't said if they're right or wrong, and again you're assuming out of ignorance CCleaner did nothing and simulated the cleaning, when I have presented you with the backups of the 2 pass CCleaning.

Well that's a  "Feb 28, 2013 3:01 AM PT" review, 4 years 8 months old, and as you can see yourself, registry cleaners make performance improvements, why should I make another? wasn't that proving you wrong? it's not clear to me. You're done talking to me about this? well I guess is good-bye for now then
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 08:35:00 am
Registry cleaning is dubious at best but is not even the main purpose of CCleaner. CCleaner is mainly used to delete temporary files, histories, logs and so on. With CCEnhancer addon it supports cleaning junk from over 1000 programs, not just to speed up the computer but mainly for privacy reasons and to recover space.

https://singularlabs.com/software/ccenhancer/

I use it regularly for many years and never had an issue. Benefits are debatable but it is not "actual malware".

So you use dubious at best software regularly? I wouldn't, I trust what they do because they work consistently over time, that's why I trusted and don't think they're dubious,because for that matter everything outside Windows is dubious, and in general we can't control the algorithms and functioning of apps so everything is partially dubious, depends on the scope you refer to
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Grizzly on October 07, 2017, 11:38:46 am

Well that's a  "Feb 28, 2013 3:01 AM PT" review, 4 years 8 months old, and as you can see yourself, registry cleaners make performance improvements,

Take a look at that table again, with the exception of Ashampoo, the registery cleaners used actually *lower* performance, albeit at such an insignificant rate that it can be chalked up to statistical variance. The only program that makes a noticable difference (And that's in boot times only), Ashampoo, does so by, err, shutting down the touchscreen. To take The E's article's text:

Quote
[The] utilities worked well enough, but they didn’t have a meaningful impact on performance. In fact, according to PCMark 7 system performance went down ever so slightly after running SlimCleaner, CCleaner, and PC Booster, though boot time was improved somewhat with Ashampoo WinOptimizer. Presumably, that's because in addition to cleaning up junk files it shut down a few services running in the background. In terms of recovered disk space, CCleaner was able to purge slightly more junk data from the system, but the differences between the apps were negligible. I compiled the results below so you can see for yourself.

Two of the tools, namely PC Booster and Ashampoo WinOptimizer, had a couple of unwanted consequences as well. Ashampoo WinOptimizer disabled the Touch Keyboard and Handwriting Panel Service, which really should have remained enabled on a multitouch-capable test system. And PC Booster set up a scheduled task that caused the application to pop-up onscreen asking users to register and buy the full version. That’s just gross, and unforgivable in my book.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 02:16:52 pm
That's the thing is not a Register cleaning comparison only and it can't be said what boosted what exactly,
Other considerations:
- It's a Sony VAIO, a nightmare to maintain, and if you try to reinstall Windows from a standard Windows installer you're in deep trouble, for me it's the worst mobile PC ever made, it has special requirements that had to be done exactly, and maybe things will work, a huge list of inconveniences other brands don't even have, anyway first mistake, like a bad girlfriend, beautiful outside and a ****ing ***** inside.
- It's a never maintained PC and amobile one: everything on C:, fragmented the crap out, and lot of bloatware and unnecessary apps.
- I create partitions for Temp, PageFile, on a second HDD and User Docs and Any other data, on the primary HDD, if only 1 HDD, like in this case, the second data partition  can't be created, but with this distinction, like Free BSD does at install time, much of the fragmentation by temp files is lowered on C: significantly, having the PageFile.sys on a single partition prevents its fragmentation and inducing fragmentation on C:, this optimization by partition wasn't made here.
- Uninstalling of apps would have helped and at least a Windows Defrag.
- This was almost 5 years ago, Windows 8.1 is a highly optimized version of Windows 8, and has a Metro Start Menu, but hey at least it has one.
- I have used my current PC extensively for about 6 years with Windows 7 Pro 64-bit and then Switched to Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit, with the same hardware, 8.1 was easily 2x the speed of 7, no contest needed, consistent with what a ex Microsoft engineers said so, he was in charge of apps and driver performance and stability testing, he designed the tests, on YouTube, Bernacles Nerdgasm or similar, he now monetize on YouTube for a living, so depends on which PC you test it, yeah, sometimes is imperceptible and in a hurry I would skip the Registry cleaners and even the defragmentation, but if I can do my work properly I will include them for sure

So of course any PC cleaning would be hindered a lot by the extremely crappy VAIO environment, in a environment, as I would create by optimizong that or any PC would be more clear the Registry cleaning environment, but right now I can't do it, I have lots of things to do, I come here to chillax not to get even more work and testing. Maybe someday.

I have discarded some of them because they stopped working or being developed on any Windows after Windows XP, and some where crappy apps  not worth using them, it's kinds of risky yes, but I tend to test them and use them and offer review in forums if I have the time. Anyway, yes I know it's controversial and sometimes adverse but if you look at the reasons besides performance I think they're valid to risk it, at least IMO.

PS: E mentioned that Windows made a copy of often used Registry parts in the Registry itself for faster access, begs the question: why, if it's so efficient?
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 07, 2017, 02:17:34 pm
So you use dubious at best software regularly? I wouldn't, I trust what they do because they work consistently over time, that's why I trusted and don't think they're dubious,because for that matter everything outside Windows is dubious, and in general we can't control the algorithms and functioning of apps so everything is partially dubious, depends on the scope you refer to

I use it to delete junk files, histories, and it works really well for that, especially enhanced with CCEnhancer. I dont regularly use the clean registry function, which is what I called dubious. But I used it occasionally and it never screwed anything up either..
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 02:37:48 pm
So you think 1 part of the app would be well coded and the other would be crappy coded? Tends to not be the case
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: The E on October 07, 2017, 03:21:46 pm
Well, you think the same is true of Windows...
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 07, 2017, 07:50:10 pm
Really? How so?why you play mysterious? if you have something to say, say it
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: jr2 on October 08, 2017, 12:49:13 am
You know, this might all boil down to choice of software running on a system.  If you're always cleaning up after someone installing junk (or you're always testing things out, realizing they're not that great or just not right for you) and uninstalling them, you're probably going to end up with a lot of stuff that needs cleaning, vs someone like The E probably has a set of tools he always uses, knows they're solid, and won't let anything else touch his system outside of, say, SandboxIE or a VM, until he's certain they're not a bunch of script kiddies trying their hand at programming for the first time.

This also explains the benchmarks.  If you're not cleaning up junk, you won't notice the benefits. 

Speaking from personal experience, I noticed a great deal of a difference on people's computers.  Might have something to do with literally thousands of orphaned entries I usually found.  Use case makes the difference.  We're talking tech-illiterate folks who hand you their machine to clean up and literally the first half hour to an hour is spent uninstalling junk that has no business being there (toolbars, 6 different video chat programs that they have no idea what they are or what they do, etc etc, basically, people who never "uncheck" anything, but are just 'smart' enough to search, and download and install stuff all day long - can you say 13 different variants of "Driver Booster XD 3.8++ ProPremium Free Ultra HD Edition"??).
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 08, 2017, 01:56:49 am
Your eloquence has put in perspective what I couldn't do with so many words. Well I ever find a severe case like that, I prefer to format and reinstall Windows after saving user's data, in my experience downloaders and other unwanted software remains being annoying or installing stuff, I learned the hard wasting hours dealing with the uninstall and then searching for virus and then cleaning and optimizing is in the end worthless
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: jr2 on October 08, 2017, 11:20:55 pm
Your eloquence has put in perspective what I couldn't do with so many words. Well I ever find a severe case like that, I prefer to format and reinstall Windows after saving user's data, in my experience downloaders and other unwanted software remains being annoying or installing stuff, I learned the hard wasting hours dealing with the uninstall and then searching for virus and then cleaning and optimizing is in the end worthless

That would be great if anyone ever kept their reinstall disks.   Also, realizing the factory restore partition has a bug (a bug, not a bad sector, chkdsk came back clean) halfway through restoring is... painful.  Mind you these things (back in 2007-2011 ish) are sporting 256-512MB RAM and the XP SP1 included needed to be updated to XP SP2/3 + all current updates and current drivers, so this all took eons.  E-O-N-S -- If I could convince them to upgrade to 2GB of RAM for $100, I'd do that first, which made it like 3x faster (or more!).

Also, I wouldn't rely solely on CCLeaner and the like, I'd run an offline (LiveCD) virus scan, then an online virus scan with an up-to-date virus scanner, then run Malwarebytes, then let CCleaner pick up the rest.  You're right though, the safest way is to factory reinstall, it just used to be a major pain in the arse.  After completion, manual defrag.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: technopredator on October 09, 2017, 12:27:21 am
Yeah, oh those times, slow PCs, HDDs and long hours. I mostly put the user HDD on my PC and made an offline virus scan, I don't like to use optical drives, they should be something reliable but they're like tapes, get screwed by usage the moment your think they're solid, they have potential, but in order to make the media cheap they go to an extreme, or they'll do it reliable and then charge a **** load of money for them, corporations, committed to be assholes to the user.And yes, Win Xp won't be happy unless you put 768 MB RAM. Yeah I'd do the online virus check too and then the rest, it was a PIA, it¡s a long process and the user never seem to realize is a PIA, they always ask how long like they'd do it themselves.
Title: Re: CCleaner is actual malware
Post by: Mito [PL] on October 15, 2017, 08:49:26 am
I'd say that most you can "optimise" is just removing all the unneeded crap running in the background, and usually Task Manager and msconfig.exe are quite fine to do that. And quite some trusted software these days comes with some background processes that shouldn't be there, I suppose.

And I need to clean that up too, it's annoying when you install Office to use it one goddamn time and it leaves you with OfficeClickToRun.exe running all the time that you can't kill with task manager. Boo.