Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Lucika on February 20, 2009, 02:57:10 pm
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The Ruse: Aken Bosch as an allied operative
I theoritize that Aken Bosch was no more (or less) than an allied operative working for finding rebellious people inside the GTVA and resurrecting Shivan technology. The ultimate plan is to create a Terran-Shivan Alliance (by no less than the whole commanding officer staff) against the Vasudans. Proofs later to come.
Shivan tech
It is theoritized that the GTA (and not the GTVA!) decided to resurrect the Shivan tech to get the necessary edge against the Vasudans in the upcoming second T-V war.
But – because of the GTI rebellion – they were unable to do this, since they’d have to face a giant roar from the public. This was one of the purposes of the deployment of Bosch.
Inside enemies
In my opinion, the other purpose of Bosch’s deployment (and giving a good lot of operatives under his command) is to find the rebellious beings (yeah, those who’d oppose the GTA and would’ve decided to try to overthrow the present government using up the public anger of the Shivan allies) and forge a fake rebellion. Since Bosch’s connected with the GTVA, they were able to communicate and Command aided Bosch more than once – examples:
Aiding Bosch
1) The Romans Blunder. No comment.
2) Stopping the SOC from destroying the Iceni (and Bosch) – I don’t thinh that Terran Command would’ve been so seriously interested in a superweapon (silly excuse) to botch such an opportunity. I’d say that GTA knew that Bosch tried to create a device to communicate with the Shivans and the operation was fake.
3) Return to Babel. Remember that Command orders not to engage the Iceni? The ubertonnage question is: WHY? They – officially – still have no idea about ETAK.
4) Into the Lions Den. My opinion is that high people in SOC decided to make a last bold bid to recover their operative – Aken Bosch. This is the reason behind the deployment of our squad. If we look the official statement that this is a recon mission – I disagree. Come on! Everyone is running away as fast as possible, every pilot is needed, they know it very well that they’re outnumbered as hell… why? Why? Why???
5) This is my bonus track and treat it as a joke: Bosch was unable to get out from the asteroid installation and needed help to get out :) – the serious question is, tho, that why didn’t the Alliance agreed upon the proposal of withdrawing from Deneb? It was highly probable that Bosch has some kind of a backup plan.
Earlier occasions
Volition, our old friend already done this, more than once – remember McCarthy with his always-rotating head? He wanted to ally with the Vasudans against the unknowns. He was gunned to pieces (okay, carried away…). Later, GTA and PVN allied against the Shivans…
Check out the rest of the rebellions (and don’t forget that FS2 was made in a fashion that it’ll have a continuation!): GTI – kill Vasudans, ally (at least implement their technology) Shivans. Hol? Same. NTF? SAME!!!!!
Volition already used this trick: the GTA does what the rebels wanted to do earlier.
Bosch monologues
Snail mentioned that Bosch’s monologues contradicts these ideas. Let’s see!
Monologue 1: Nothing.
No. 2: He has enemies, that's all. Isn’t stated that they’re the GTVA. Calls his own rebellion an "army of stupid cattle". He states that "...my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans" - THUS he tries to help the Terran-Shivan alliance (thus, humanity – this is what the whole GTA wants) against the Vasudans.
No. 3: Nothing again. He mentions that whether this ruse was useful or not (Fool's Crusade).
No. 4: He is happy that he achieved his goals. Tho he didn't expect that he'll be carried away by the Shivans.
Note that this is just a scratch, but I decided to post it anyway. It might not be the truth, but… who knows?
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It's true that Bosch's motives were to ally with the Shivans and exterminate the Vasudans, and it's true that allied operatives let Bosch proceed with his research in certain cases so they could capture the completed ETAK device. But the idea that the entire NTF rebellion was a conspiracy willed into existence by the GTVA is absurd.
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Wonderful! Another wonderful person I can argue -- I mean debate with. ;)
I theoritize that Aken Bosch was no more (or less) than an allied operative working for finding rebellious people inside the GTVA and resurrecting Shivan technology. The ultimate plan is to create a Terran-Shivan Alliance (by no less than the whole commanding officer staff) against the Vasudans. Proofs later to come.
I disagree. Let's go.
Shivan tech
It is theoritized that the GTA (and not the GTVA!) decided to resurrect the Shivan tech to get the necessary edge against the Vasudans in the upcoming second T-V war.
But – because of the GTI rebellion – they were unable to do this, since they’d have to face a giant roar from the public. This was one of the purposes of the deployment of Bosch.
Hold on a moment. You say here that the GTA's goal was to restart the Terran-Vasudan War through the use of Shivan tech. However, if this is true, then why was there evena need for a GTI rebellion? If the GTA's goals meshed with the GTI's research, then why would the GTI need to rebel in the first place?
Inside enemies
In my opinion, the other purpose of Bosch’s deployment (and giving a good lot of operatives under his command) is to find the rebellious beings (yeah, those who’d oppose the GTA and would’ve decided to try to overthrow the present government using up the public anger of the Shivan allies) and forge a fake rebellion. Since Bosch’s connected with the GTVA, they were able to communicate and Command aided Bosch more than once – examples:
Whoa wait a second there! So the plan is to find all those dissidents and rebels and get rid of them by giving them a rallying point. That seems to be absolutely freaking idiotic on the part of GTVA command were this true. Instead of revealing the dissidents and rebels, you've made them far, far, far stronger by uniting them. It seems daft to try reveal rebellious people by turning them from isolated dissidents into a fully-armed, organized military force. Then you have the snowball effect. At first you just have a few hundred rebels. Some more moderate people might think it's a good idea and become extremists. The NTF was converting more people to their cause. In an attempt to eradicate the rebels you are instead making more of them. I doubt the GTVA would be stupid enough to attempt to get rid of rebels by making them stronger.
You don't get rid of rebels by inciting them to unite together against you.
I wholeheartedly agree the GTVA were trying to get information out of Bosch regarding Shivan technology. What I don't agree with is this whole rebels conspiracy thing. :no:
Aiding Bosch
1) The Romans Blunder. No comment.
I agree something was up there, yeah. But I don't agree with the general theory.
2) Stopping the SOC from destroying the Iceni (and Bosch) – I don’t thinh that Terran Command would’ve been so seriously interested in a superweapon (silly excuse) to botch such an opportunity. I’d say that GTA knew that Bosch tried to create a device to communicate with the Shivans and the operation was fake.
Yep, I agree with you there. :yes:
3) Return to Babel. Remember that Command orders not to engage the Iceni? The ubertonnage question is: WHY? They – officially – still have no idea about ETAK.
Terran Command did know about ETAK, just didn't want other people to know that they knew. :yes:
4) Into the Lions Den. My opinion is that high people in SOC decided to make a last bold bid to recover their operative – Aken Bosch. This is the reason behind the deployment of our squad. If we look the official statement that this is a recon mission – I disagree. Come on! Everyone is running away as fast as possible, every pilot is needed, they know it very well that they’re outnumbered as hell… why? Why? Why???
Yeah. Agree. But, not so much "operative" as their pawn. :yes:
5) This is my bonus track and treat it as a joke: Bosch was unable to get out from the asteroid installation and needed help to get out :) – the serious question is, tho, that why didn’t the Alliance agreed upon the proposal of withdrawing from Deneb? It was highly probable that Bosch has some kind of a backup plan.
Not sure here.
Earlier occasions
Volition, our old friend already done this, more than once – remember McCarthy with his always-rotating head? He wanted to ally with the Vasudans against the unknowns. He was gunned to pieces (okay, carried away…). Later, GTA and PVN allied against the Shivans…
McCarthy was captured. Following the Shivan invasion of the Great War, he was trialled accordingly. The McCarthy Trials went down in history. It is likely (but by no means certain canonically of course) that McCarthy was pardoned for his foresight. He knew about the Shivans and he knew that to withstand their invasion the Terrans and Vasudans had to work together.
Check out the rest of the rebellions (and don’t forget that FS2 was made in a fashion that it’ll have a continuation!): GTI – kill Vasudans, ally (at least implement their technology) Shivans.
Kill Vasudans? Where? Oh right, in non-canon material. Bzzt wrong there.
The GTI never wanted to kill the Vasudans canonically.
Hol? Same.
The Hammer of Light worshiped the Shivans as Gods. They saw the Destroyers' arrival as the culmination of thousands of years of corruption and evil that the Vasudan race had gathered. There is no instance of the HoL trying to integrate Shivan technology.
NTF? SAME!!!!!
The GTVA does not want to kill Vasudans. By no means.
Volition already used this trick: the GTA does what the rebels wanted to do earlier.
Does it? See above.
Bosch monologues
Snail mentioned that Bosch’s monologues contradicts these ideas. Let’s see!
Monologue 1: Nothing.
No. 2: He has enemies, that's all. Isn’t stated that they’re the GTVA. Calls his own rebellion an "army of stupid cattle". He states that "...my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans" - THUS he tries to help the Terran-Shivan alliance (thus, humanity – this is what the whole GTA wants) against the Vasudans.
No. 3: Nothing again. He mentions that whether this ruse was useful or not (Fool's Crusade).
No. 4: He is happy that he achieved his goals. Tho he didn't expect that he'll be carried away by the Shivans.
My point was not what he did say. It was what he didn't say. If he was a GTVA operative, how come he never mentions it once in his Monologues?
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This is actually a good theory, but it's believed that Bosch is Alpha 1 from Silent Threat. I'm still in favor of the Capella BBQ theory, myself. But the "unifying the rebels" actually makes sense to me. What better way to stop rebellion than to gather them all, then slaughter them?
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This is actually a good theory, but it's believed that Bosch is Alpha 1 from Silent Threat. I'm still in favor of the Capella BBQ theory, myself. But the "unifying the rebels" actually makes sense to me. What better way to stop rebellion than to gather them all, then slaughter them?
You can stop it by gathering small groups and making examples out of them. The NTF wasn't a small group.
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I'm still in favor of the Capella BBQ theory, myself.
Ooh, where can I find that?
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This is actually a good theory, but it's believed that Bosch is Alpha 1 from Silent Threat.
Bosch claimed that he fought the GTI, but there are no references pointing him out as ST's player character. It doesn't make the difference because eyewitnesses and first person actions are nearly to the same level.
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I'm still in favor of the Capella BBQ theory, myself.
Ooh, where can I find that?
Here you go
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory
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What better way to stop rebellion than to gather them all, then slaughter them?
How about not letting them get enough military influence to take control of half your core systems? :rolleyes:
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Sorry, wasn't here to answer.
For this whole rebellion, I can only quote Aken Bosch himself:
"...I am merely a fool who created a monster I am now powerless to stop, and so I will play my role to the bloody end."
Even if you agree with me or not, you cannot circumvent the fact that Command aided Bosch more than once.
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Command aided Bosch because they wanted him to finish ETAK, just in case they ever wanted to talk to the Shivans. (and that it would be a tremendous waste if they just blew something potentially use up).
As far as I'm concerned, the GTVA didn't want the NTF to happen, but since it did, they decided to make the best of it (though doing so prolonged the conflict).
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I'm still in favor of the Capella BBQ theory, myself.
Ooh, where can I find that?
Here you go
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory
I want that to be true. :lol:
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I don't agree with this at all. So the GTVA would willingly, lay down the lives of their own pilots to get to to the Shivans in short? I don't think so. No offence intended here though Lucika.
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This is actually a good theory, but it's believed that Bosch is Alpha 1 from Silent Threat.
Bosch claimed that he fought the GTI, but there are no references pointing him out as ST's player character. It doesn't make the difference because eyewitnesses and first person actions are nearly to the same level.
Maybe so but it is a plausible theory, as the ST character is surely not an ensign (even though you may be in rank if you make a new character), simply because of his extended service under Admiral Po(unless SOC decides to appoint junior officers as operatives). My guess is that the ST character is minimum a Lt. Cmdr. If 30 years passed between those times, this Lt. Cmdr would surely have increased in rank to have his own command and eventually a fleet.
Mostly though, the Bosch as the ST Alpha 1 is simply plausible because it would make a good continuation. Remember that the GTI rebellion was localized. Not many except the Krios' crew (and the other ship you get stationned on after it gets shot to sh1t forgot its name) actually fought in the GTI rebellion. No major combat theaters developped. This rebellion was mostly nipped in the bud by pure luck, the Hades being near that station in the final mission of the canon ST (havent finished ST:R, PLEASE DO NOT SPOIL IT!!).
So the statistical probability that Bosch is ST's Alpha 1 is acceptably high. Remember nearly everyone died in the Krios' destruction except those escape pods (if you actually manage to save them :) )
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Why is this here??
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Why is this here??
What?
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Wait, this isn't FS modding... :wtf: God i'm not with it tonight.
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Sorry, Snail, no quotestacking, I'll just answer here:
1) Why was there a need for the GTI rebellion?
If we say that the Terrans decided to act as I said (resurrecting Shivan tech & attacking Vasudans), than they've immediately deployed Bosch for these purposes. The GTI was waaaaay earlier.
2) Okay, here's the deal: The GTVA was unaware of the snowball effect, and - of course - didn't want to create a total rebellion (Or... who knows? It might have been useful to start the armament. But anyway, let's move on), just tried to set up a cult or such, but it turned into an open rebellion. Note Bosch's monologue: "I am merely a fool who created a monster I am now powerless to stop, and so I will play my role to the bloody end."
3/3) This isn't proven.
3/4) Come on! We assume that the recon mission is just a cover. And, as I stated, Bosch is an agent, thus not just a pawn (but we don't have to debate on that, the main thing is that they went for Bosch).
3/5) Yup. Another "Why?" on the official events.
4) The GTI rebellion attacking Vasudans. As I stated in the other topic: "Do you think that after the GTI overthrown the GTA, then they'll live peacefully next to the Vasudans? Bah.
McCarthy: Anyway. The broken rebellion done exactly what later the GTA done. I say that in FS3 the Terrans would've tried to ally with the Shivans, as the NTF and/or the Hol wanted to (Hol: "aid them" - ignore the reasons, only care what they do - aiding the Shivans!).
No instance of Hol integrating Shivan tech? What about those shields, my dear?
The GTA doesn't want to kill Vasudans? We cannot be sure. No evidence on the contrary, and note the cutted FS1 cutscenes about the racial conflicts. What if this happened in FS2, too?
"If he was a GTVA (note: I'd say GTA) operative, how come he never mentions it once in his Monologues?" Mere storyline reasons. :v: didn't want to botch the storyline. Plus, I won't risk babling such stuff in a totally hostile environment if I'd be him.
That's all for now.
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If you think about it, war would be pretty profitable for war machines like the GTVA. During peacetime, the need for military funding drops. (Colossus being an exception, because it's more of a cautionary act.)
Sure a lot of people die in wars, but with 20+ systems you're not running out of people anytime soon. =/
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Thing is, even if military spending would be reduced in peacetime, you have to remember that during the 32 years between the two shivan encounters, the GTVA did MASSIVE R&D to fight the shivans should they ever come back.
The GTVA itself told its pilots that the shutting off of both the Epsilon Pegasi and Vega nodes leading to Capella was "only a temporary measure", so even after the 2nd conflict they would keep researching technologies to help them fight the Shivans.
Honestly, there ARE unanswered questions regarding the NTF, but the theory that Bosch was an agent is absurd.
Simply, Allied Command (as the General Assembly is more related to civilian matters, it would not be them, and somehow I doubt the Vasudan Imperium would have planned this), once they found out about ETAK, wanted to know more and thus let Bosch carry on with his business. Also I'm pretty sure that the GTVA did not know ETAK was designed as Shivan Comm Tech until the first loop mission when you scan the Iceni and the Hinton.
This explains the Sunder escort mission following it, and it explains why the GTVA chastises Admiral Ahmose for violating orders by sending that Mentu and Sobek to destroy the Iceni. It is highly possible that Ahmose was on standby, that if it was found ETAK was a WMD, Ahmose's ships would be sent in, but when they realised there was no weapon on board, they got curious and wanted to know more. Remember that at that point in time, the NTF rebellion was already extremely strained, the Repulse having been destroyed, along with the NTF 2nd in command, Rear Admiral Koth. (was it established that he was 2nd in command in canon?)
This means the GTVA could buy time and find out all it could about ETAK. My guess is they never expected the "rush to the Knossos" when Alpha 1 got luckily transfered to the 64th Raptors to wipe out the NTF fleet.
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Thing is, even if military spending would be reduced in peacetime, you have to remember that during the 32 years between the two shivan encounters, the GTVA did MASSIVE R&D to fight the shivans should they ever come back.
The GTVA itself told its pilots that the shutting off of both the Epsilon Pegasi and Vega nodes leading to Capella was "only a temporary measure", so even after the 2nd conflict they would keep researching technologies to help them fight the Shivans.
Honestly, there ARE unanswered questions regarding the NTF, but the theory that Bosch was an agent is absurd.
Simply, Allied Command (as the General Assembly is more related to civilian matters, it would not be them, and somehow I doubt the Vasudan Imperium would have planned this), once they found out about ETAK, wanted to know more and thus let Bosch carry on with his business. Also I'm pretty sure that the GTVA did not know ETAK was designed as Shivan Comm Tech until the first loop mission when you scan the Iceni and the Hinton.
This explains the Sunder escort mission following it, and it explains why the GTVA chastises Admiral Ahmose for violating orders by sending that Mentu and Sobek to destroy the Iceni. It is highly possible that Ahmose was on standby, that if it was found ETAK was a WMD, Ahmose's ships would be sent in, but when they realised there was no weapon on board, they got curious and wanted to know more. Remember that at that point in time, the NTF rebellion was already extremely strained, the Repulse having been destroyed, along with the NTF 2nd in command, Rear Admiral Koth. (was it established that he was 2nd in command in canon?)
This means the GTVA could buy time and find out all it could about ETAK. My guess is they never expected the "rush to the node" when Alpha 1 got luckily transfered to the 64th Raptors to wipe out the NTF fleet.
I don't answer for "this is absurd". There is a lot of evidence what I have listed above, no matter what you say.
About the knowledge of ETAK:
"All right, pilot. I've got some good news and some bad news. Good news is we got the Iceni and the Hinton to Regulus. The scan data you collected has been transmitted to the GTVI, and our operation to uncover the secret of ETAK continues as planned. " (Debriefing from Rebels & Renegades (Loop 1 - mission 1)
"Thanks to our heist, the Sunder is now in allied custody. With our scan of the Iceni and the capture of the rebel transport, the GTVI can begin to unravel the secret of Bosch's ETAK project. " (Loop 1 - mission 2)
The latter makes it sure that the GTVA didn't know about what ETAK is at this point of the campaign. Thus we must say that they still think that ETAK is a weapon (if they know what it is, then the obvious question is: who gave the info? /I'd say Bosch/). If so, GTVA would surely decide that destroying the Iceni - thus slashing the dragon's head - is more useful than searching for a superweapon.
The question is: why didn't they do that? Because Bosch was their agent.
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The latter makes it sure that the GTVA didn't know about what ETAK is at this point of the campaign. Thus we must say that they still think that ETAK is a weapon (if they know what it is, then the obvious question is: who gave the info? /I'd say Bosch/). If so, GTVA would surely decide that destroying the Iceni - thus slashing the dragon's head - is more useful than searching for a superweapon.
The question is: why didn't they do that? Because Bosch was their agent.
Uh no. What about SOC's undercover agents hearing rumours here and there and ETAK, perhaps NTF pilots re-defecting to the GTVA? There are more possibilities than Bosch informing the GTVA about ETAK.
And as for not destroying the Iceni - on that frigate holds the full research and information about ETAK. The GTVA wants the information so if they destroy the Iceni they would lose the only source of true information about ETAK.
Finally the question is - if Bosch really was a GTVA agent, with such power over the NTF, why didn't he just beam over the specifications of ETAK? Why didn't he just stop when the Colossus blockaded the Knossos portal?
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The latter makes it sure that the GTVA didn't know about what ETAK is at this point of the campaign. Thus we must say that they still think that ETAK is a weapon (if they know what it is, then the obvious question is: who gave the info? /I'd say Bosch/). If so, GTVA would surely decide that destroying the Iceni - thus slashing the dragon's head - is more useful than searching for a superweapon.
The question is: why didn't they do that? Because Bosch was their agent.
Uh no. What about SOC's undercover agents hearing rumours here and there and ETAK, perhaps NTF pilots re-defecting to the GTVA? There are more possibilities than Bosch informing the GTVA about ETAK.
And as for not destroying the Iceni - on that frigate holds the full research and information about ETAK. The GTVA wants the information so if they destroy the Iceni they would lose the only source of true information about ETAK.
Finally the question is - if Bosch really was a GTVA agent, with such power over the NTF, why didn't he just beam over the specifications of ETAK? Why didn't he just stop when the Colossus blockaded the Knossos portal?
It would be nice if you'd at least TRY to think that this is true, thus you'd be able to answer these questions on your own.
1) If there are re-defecting pilots, then it's sure that they're coming from the lower ranks, thus they don't know what ETAK exactly is.
2) As I said it earlier: why is the GTVA so interested in a superweapon? Considering the rebellion, it would've been much more useful to deal with Bosch - thus slaying the dragon's head. And, as I proved it earlier, GTVA doesn't know what ETAK is at that point.
3) The SOC mission was a ruse. A RUSE. And nothing more, OK? I'd say that it was forced by people who didn't know about Bosch's real belonging. Trust me, if the GTVA would've wanted this info that much, they would've just captured the Iceni outright. And if they know that this "weapon" isn't done yet, we can ask again: What is the source of that (nonexistent) information?
4) Why didn't Bosch stop? For the Holy God's sake! He had to test the device!
By the way, this point of yours made me think and I took a look on that "NTF saboteurs" on the Colly.
30,000 chosen crew members. Including NTF loyalists? Come on! It is sure that there was a strong security protocol on the Colly and it is highly improbable that they were able to get over there. If they were NTF loyalists (note that the Colly wasn't done before the rebellion started), then why didn't they defect earlier? Did they decided that "Oh my God, there might be a big bad GTVA ship, we should wait that if it exists, we should get up and sabotage it if attacks the good old Iceni?"
I'd say that this is another occasion of the GTA helping Bosch: letting him through the Knossos.
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I think you're wrong. But at least now we have the Freespace equivalent of tinfoil-hat conspiracy nuts.
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I think you're wrong. But at least now we have the Freespace equivalent of tinfoil-hat conspiracy nuts.
Nice proof. Sorrry for the wording, but check the evidences... And try to condradict them.
Seriously, anyone'd make an article of that in the same fashion as the Shivan Manifesto or other theories? I am not good in Wiki editing.
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You even sound like one. :P
Theories are fun, but don't get too rabid about it.
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You even sound like one. :P
Theories are fun, but don't get too rabid about it.
:)
You see, everyone says that this is crazy. And no one was able to tell a reasonable why :)
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It just defies reason.
Everyone's so used to seeing Bosch as the bad guy. :lol:
It's definitely plausible, but if true it'd probably turn a few heads.
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It just defies reason.
Everyone's so used to seeing Bosch as the bad guy. :lol:
It's definitely plausible, but if true it'd probably turn a few heads.
For exactly the same reason 'plausible' conspiracy theories aren't true: it requires a lot of justifications, obscenely complicated explanations of simple facts, and spinning the obvious truth into layers of deception and deceit.
It also defies all reason that the GTVA would create a massive and thoroughly damaging rebellion, consuming most of its own resources and power, simply for a hare-brained intelligence gambit.
Lastly, Bosch's monologues make it clear that this is his own personal crusade.
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It just defies reason.
Everyone's so used to seeing Bosch as the bad guy. :lol:
It's definitely plausible, but if true it'd probably turn a few heads.
For exactly the same reason 'plausible' conspiracy theories aren't true: it requires a lot of justifications, obscenely complicated explanations of simple facts, and spinning the obvious truth into layers of deception and deceit.
It also defies all reason that the GTVA would create a massive and thoroughly damaging rebellion, consuming most of its own resources and power, simply for a hare-brained intelligence gambit.
Lastly, Bosch's monologues make it clear that this is his own personal crusade.
They doesn't make it clear. He HAS a crusade.
And it seems to me that everyone fails to understand that Bosch boy wasn't ordered to create a rebellion, just to grop the rebellious persons together. And it is very hard to circumvent the GTVA's continous aid of Bosch.
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It would be nice if you'd at least TRY to think that this is true, thus you'd be able to answer these questions on your own.
1) If there are re-defecting pilots, then it's sure that they're coming from the lower ranks, thus they don't know what ETAK exactly is.
2) As I said it earlier: why is the GTVA so interested in a superweapon? Considering the rebellion, it would've been much more useful to deal with Bosch - thus slaying the dragon's head. And, as I proved it earlier, GTVA doesn't know what ETAK is at that point.
3) The SOC mission was a ruse. A RUSE. And nothing more, OK? I'd say that it was forced by people who didn't know about Bosch's real belonging. Trust me, if the GTVA would've wanted this info that much, they would've just captured the Iceni outright. And if they know that this "weapon" isn't done yet, we can ask again: What is the source of that (nonexistent) information?
4) Why didn't Bosch stop? For the Holy God's sake! He had to test the device!
By the way, this point of yours made me think and I took a look on that "NTF saboteurs" on the Colly.
30,000 chosen crew members. Including NTF loyalists? Come on! It is sure that there was a strong security protocol on the Colly and it is highly improbable that they were able to get over there. If they were NTF loyalists (note that the Colly wasn't done before the rebellion started), then why didn't they defect earlier? Did they decided that "Oh my God, there might be a big bad GTVA ship, we should wait that if it exists, we should get up and sabotage it if attacks the good old Iceni?"
I'd say that this is another occasion of the GTA helping Bosch: letting him through the Knossos.
1) What's to say that? You ask for proof, and then spew stuff like this.
2) Why wouldn't they be? There's a suspected superweapon out there and you want to take out someone who can be easily (if not effectively) replaced with a subordinate? Better check your priorities there.
3) How do they know the 'weapon' isn't done? If the GTVI SOC command doesn't know Bosch is an agent, no one does.
4) In any battle, a ship takes damage. With almost any damage, a ship loses personnel. The Collosus was rammed by the Repulse, which would have caused casualties. Those casualties must have been replaced, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. That, and there is such a thing as a 'sleeper agent.'
4b) Okay then, you disable the engines before he jumps out again.I think you're wrong. But at least now we have the Freespace equivalent of tinfoil-hat conspiracy nuts.
Nice proof. Sorrry for the wording, but check the evidences... And try to condradict them.
Seriously, anyone'd make an article of that in the same fashion as the Shivan Manifesto or other theories? I am not good in Wiki editing.
Checked, and contradicted.
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It just defies reason.
Everyone's so used to seeing Bosch as the bad guy. :lol:
It's definitely plausible, but if true it'd probably turn a few heads.
For exactly the same reason 'plausible' conspiracy theories aren't true: it requires a lot of justifications, obscenely complicated explanations of simple facts, and spinning the obvious truth into layers of deception and deceit.
It also defies all reason that the GTVA would create a massive and thoroughly damaging rebellion, consuming most of its own resources and power, simply for a hare-brained intelligence gambit.
Lastly, Bosch's monologues make it clear that this is his own personal crusade.
They doesn't make it clear. He HAS a crusade.
And it seems to me that everyone fails to understand that Bosch boy wasn't ordered to create a rebellion, just to grop the rebellious persons together. And it is very hard to circumvent the GTVA's continous aid of Bosch.
As Snail has widely maintained for years, the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.
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It just defies reason.
Everyone's so used to seeing Bosch as the bad guy. :lol:
It's definitely plausible, but if true it'd probably turn a few heads.
For exactly the same reason 'plausible' conspiracy theories aren't true: it requires a lot of justifications, obscenely complicated explanations of simple facts, and spinning the obvious truth into layers of deception and deceit.
It also defies all reason that the GTVA would create a massive and thoroughly damaging rebellion, consuming most of its own resources and power, simply for a hare-brained intelligence gambit.
Lastly, Bosch's monologues make it clear that this is his own personal crusade.
They doesn't make it clear. He HAS a crusade.
And it seems to me that everyone fails to understand that Bosch boy wasn't ordered to create a rebellion, just to grop the rebellious persons together. And it is very hard to circumvent the GTVA's continous aid of Bosch.
As Snail has widely maintained for years, the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.
I should stop quotestacking...
GTVA DOESN'T KNOW WHAT ETAK IS WHEN THE FIRST LOOP OF THE CAMPAIGN BEGINS!!!!! IF THEY DO, WHAT'S THE SOURSE AND WHY DO THEY STATE THAT IT IS A SUPERWEAPON?
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GTVA DOESN'T KNOW WHAT ETAK IS WHEN THE FIRST LOOP OF THE CAMPAIGN BEGINS!!!!! IF THEY DO, WHAT'S THE SOURSE AND WHY DO THEY STATE THAT IT IS A SUPERWEAPON?
Dude. Now you're contradicting yourself. If Bosch was an allied operative, wouldn't the GTVA know everything about what he was doing? Sheesh. No need for allcaps man.
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Classified Info possibly?
Ever read Sun Tzu's Art of War (or however you spell it). The tactic is feed your own people false info so even if they do get captured etc they wont say anything meaningful. Anyway I don't have anythign against you, I just don't see light in it.
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During Petrach's command briefing near the begining of the main campaign game (or was it in the Debriefing for "Place of Chariots"?). It is stated by your superior that ETAK is believed to be a WOMD.
This indicates one of two things to me
1) The GTVA has no idea what ETAK is supposed to be (all they've heard is the Project Name and that Bosch is personally overseeing it so it must be Very important).
or
2) The Upper Eschelons of the GTVA High Command know what ETAK is but haven't told their pawns...erm Subordinates. Thus Petrach or Lieutenant Loukakis depending who it was who first mentioned ETAK doesn't know it is. (This seems highly likely considering later events of the Campaign).
Besides if bosch were an operative then only the Security Council would know...Basically if he was, then his entire opperation would be classified beyond level Omega. Hey what's the point of being a Secret Agent or a member of a secret conspiracy if you tell everyone about it :cool:
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GTVA DOESN'T KNOW WHAT ETAK IS WHEN THE FIRST LOOP OF THE CAMPAIGN BEGINS!!!!! IF THEY DO, WHAT'S THE SOURSE AND WHY DO THEY STATE THAT IT IS A SUPERWEAPON?
Dude. Now you're contradicting yourself. If Bosch was an allied operative, wouldn't the GTVA know everything about what he was doing? Sheesh. No need for allcaps man.
I meant officially. Look, two versions:
1) Bosch isn't an operative -> the GTVA thinks that ETAK is a weapon. Now, instead of using the possibility to slay the dragon's head, they search fro an unknown weapon. This is stupid.
2) Bosch is an operative -> the highest members of the GTVA know what ETAK is -> they create a fake mission OR someone who doesn't know what ETAK is orders some SOC guys to get info about the ETAK.
No contradiction.
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The thing that doesn't add up for me is. If Bosch is an allied operative, why is the GTVA standing by and willfully sending their own pilots and marines into combat with a force they created themselves, unnecessary waste of money and life IMO.
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GTVA has some imperialistic views, not to mention an actual empire is part of the alliance. I wouldn't see it as impossible that the top brass might think it necessary if only for the greater good. Soldiers do seem to be bred to die a lot in Freespace. XD
I actually understand this theory. Most of it adds up pretty well the way it's put
But it's still just a theory, not that I'm saying the others are certainly true.
It's just a little out there that's all, but definitely possible.
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I meant officially. Look, two versions:
1) Bosch isn't an operative -> the GTVA thinks that ETAK is a weapon. Now, instead of using the possibility to slay the dragon's head, they search fro an unknown weapon. This is stupid.
2) Bosch is an operative -> the highest members of the GTVA know what ETAK is -> they create a fake mission OR someone who doesn't know what ETAK is orders some SOC guys to get info about the ETAK.
Well yeah, officially. ;)
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The thing that doesn't add up for me is. If Bosch is an allied operative, why is the GTVA standing by and willfully sending their own pilots and marines into combat with a force they created themselves, unnecessary waste of money and life IMO.
A good commander knows what pieces to sacrifice. If in the Long run ETAK saves the Terran and Vasudan Races (Likely numbering in the Trillions and being British I'll Put that in Long Scale where One Trillion = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1018), then the leaders have no trouble sending countless millions of marines, officers and pilots to their deaths. Basically is a numbers game. Cold unsympathetic numbers. Sacrifice Millions (106) to save LS Trillions (1018)
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Although during the course of the entire war the casualties total up to a massive number anyway.
And depending on what the Capella incident was exactly like (Whether or not planets were inhabited and couldn't evacuate) the entire thing might not even be worth it.
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Although during the course of the entire war the casualties total up to a massive number anyway.
And depending on what the Capella incident was exactly like (Whether or not planets were inhabited and couldn't evacuate) the entire thing might not even be worth it.
Yes, but the GTVA weren't planning on that whole series of events. My guess, is that they had deep-cover high-ranking operatives aboard the Iceni, and they would signal when the device was complete/proven and the GTVA would come in and nab the Iceni. But we all know that plan would've been cut short anyway with everyone being slaughtered etc.
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Uhm...
1) Why would the GTVA start something that is likely to compromise its own integrity? Are you aware of what the NTF did to the Alliance?
2) What about "The GTVA let the Iceni escape because they were unaware of its firepower?". What's the point in facing a warship whose capabilities might overwhelm yours? Also, be advised that, at the beginning, the GTVA considered ETAK a weapon of mass destruction and not actually a way to communicate with the Shivans.
3) Who said that an eventual capture of Bosch would have been crucial? There surely was someone powerful enough to replace him...say whatever you want on the effect his capture would have had, but still... :rolleyes:
4) More importantly, what was the point in dividing the fleet when the Shivans appeared? It wasn't another rebellion, guys...there were Shivans threatening GTVA space, do you really believe that keeping the rebellion up would have helped? With all due respect, I doubt it;
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Uhm...
1) Why would the GTVA start something that is likely to compromise its own integrity? Are you aware of what the NTF did to the Alliance?
2) What about "The GTVA let the Iceni escape because they were unaware of its firepower?". What's the point in facing a warship whose capabilities might overwhelm yours? Also, be advised that, at the beginning, the GTVA considered ETAK a weapon of mass destruction and not actually a way to communicate with the Shivans.
3) Who said that an eventual capture of Bosch would have been crucial? There surely was someone powerful enough to replace him...say whatever you want on the effect his capture would have had, but still... :rolleyes:
4) More importantly, what was the point in dividing the fleet when the Shivans appeared? It wasn't another rebellion, guys...there were Shivans threatening GTVA space, do you really believe that keeping the rebellion up would have helped? With all due respect, I doubt it;
I have to repeat it again...
1) The GTVA didn't want to create a rebellion. Theur plan was no more than getting he rebellious persons together. Unfortunately, the good old snowball effect came and a full-scale rebellion began.
2) What? Don't understand. Read my posts again, even I say that the GTVA didn't know what ETAK is. Only the highest ranking officers who created this ruse, but they had to allow a fake SOC mission while the involved personnel didn't know yet what ETAK is.
3) Koth killed, Bosch killed... the "superweapon" is gone... you cannot say that this wouldn't have had an effect on the NTF.
4) Same as no. 1.
And I really offer you to take a look on my idea about the Colly.
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Eh?
1) So it's plausible for you to muster the bad guys? As far as I know whole governments defected to the NTF...how many thousand bad guys did the GTVA thow in? Also, why would the inhabitants of Sirius, Regulus and Polaris follow those bad guys arrived from nowhere instead of their well deserved politicians?
The NTF's first struggle was finding supporters. Bosch himself claimed that he didn't really hate the Vasudans, but the anti-Vasudan aspect of Neo Terran ideals was pivotal;
2) Dude, even the 53rd Hammerheads knew what ETAK was probably like...and as far as I'm concerned, they weren't SOC units or such - ergo nearly everyone in the GTVA fleet knew that the NTF was developing something called "ETAK" and the chances that it was a weapon of mass destruction were surely high;
3) This is to be split into two:
a) Rear Admiral Koth didn't die in Deneb, when the Iceni escaped. Useless to say that he was a Rear Admiral, not a Vice or "full" Admiral, so even if his attack on Epsilon Pegasi was successful and well placed you have no reason to point Koth out as the "second in command" of the NTF.
Other capship commanders, like the CO of the Cyrene (flagship of the Sirius fleet), probably had a lot more importance and would have replaced Bosch if the leader was killed or captured;
b) You're giving for sure that everything about ETAK was stored on the Iceni. I don't quite believe it's plausible, especially by following the "weapon of mass destruction" theory/suspect;
4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition...if we mention the Shivans, your theory loses even more plausibility... :p
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Eh?
1) So it's plausible for you to muster the bad guys? As far as I know whole governments defected to the NTF...how many thousand bad guys did the GTVA thow in? Also, why would the inhabitants of Sirius, Regulus and Polaris follow those bad guys arrived from nowhere instead of their well deserved politicians?
The NTF's first struggle was finding supporters. Bosch himself claimed that he didn't really hate the Vasudans, but the anti-Vasudan aspect of Neo Terran ideals was pivotal;
2) Dude, even the 53rd Hammerheads knew what ETAK was probably like...and as far as I'm concerned, they weren't SOC units or such - ergo nearly everyone in the GTVA fleet knew that the NTF was developing something called "ETAK" and the chances that it was a weapon of mass destruction were surely high;
3) This is to be split into two:
a) Rear Admiral Koth didn't die in Deneb, when the Iceni escaped. Useless to say that he was a Rear Admiral, not a Vice or "full" Admiral, so even if his attack on Epsilon Pegasi was successful and well placed you have no reason to point Koth out as the "second in command" of the NTF.
Other capship commanders, like the CO of the Cyrene (flagship of the Sirius fleet), probably had a lot more importance and would have replaced Bosch if the leader was killed or captured;
b) You're giving for sure that everything about ETAK was stored on the Iceni. I don't quite believe it's plausible, especially by following the "weapon of mass destruction" theory/suspect;
4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition...if we mention the Shivans, your theory loses even more plausibility... :p
1) Imagine that you are the leader of the GTVA. You want to find the bad guys. How would you do it?
"Struggle?" You contradict yourself. Whole goverments and such!
2) As I stated, the low-ranking officers thought that ETAK is a weapon and the high guys knew that it is a comm device - and the source of the info was Bosch.
3/1) It WOULD have helped a lot, you must admit that. If the GTVA would ignore the possibility of killing Bosch, then they would've agreed with him at the depot. But since he was their agent, this couldn't happen.
3/2) I just quote:"All right, pilot. I've got some good news and some bad news. Good news is the Iceni has been destroyed along with Admiral Bosch and the ETAK project, whatever that was. "
4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition: the GTVA didn't want to create a rebellion!!!! It was the snowball effect.
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1) Do you think that everyone would join the NTF without a valid reason to do it? The GTVA had certain technological superiority also also overwhelmed the NTF by the numbers. If you don't have anything to believe, like the ideals of Neo-Terra and the anger towards the Vasudans, then you would never fight for the guys who're surely going to lose.
Please clarify your opinions so that it'd be easier for me and the others to understand it;
2) That is hard of believe. Until "Rebels&Renegades" there was no chance of finding out what the ETAK project really was about, ergo everyone suspected that it was a weapon of mass destruction. The GTVA might have let the Iceni go probably because of this fearsome evenience;
3)
a) It would have helped, no doubt about it, but facing a ship whose capabilities (even without ETAK) are unknown is not a good move. You need to get your facts right;
b) It's possible to give for sure that everything about ETAK was on the Iceni. That quote clearly proves that ETAK was housed on the Iceni, but it surely doesn't claim that with the destruction of the Iceni everything about ETAK is gone... :p
4) It might be a snowball effect but dude, the GTVA isn't made of stupid people! Those bad guys would have decided to stop their rebellion if needed...
At least, if the GTVA really had to muster all bad guys, they should also have had a way to keep them under control even in case of rebellion. Anything like "We've replaced a tooth of yours with a remotely activable device that'd kill you instantly if you don't behave well" would work. As I said, the GTVA head authorities aren''t made of stupid people;
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A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.
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A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.
1) Okay. Note that if Bosch IS an allied operative, then he could've helped them dealing with the rebs (he probably did by telling the rallyin point's whereabouts and with the run to the nebula itself - the whole reb fleet has been cramped)
2) The high officers knew everything about ETAK from Bosch,
3/a) A modified cruiser, no more. And, note the debriefing in R&R, Command isn't pleased when the Iceni is destroyed...
3/b) If Bosch didn't help the GTVA, then with the Iceni's destruction everything is gone of ETAK for the GTVA! If he did: they can be sad because they've lost their agent: Bosch.
4) Getting the bad guys together doesn't necessary mean that they'll revolt against you. It was U-N-E-X-P-E-C-T-E-D.
Please! Read my posts again! The ones at the 1st and 2nd pages!
(would anyone create a wiki article about that? :))
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Look, it's a fine theory. Go make a campaign about it or something. Then you can have a Wiki article.
Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.
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Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.
It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)
Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.
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I agree about the GTVA helping Bosch but not about a few other things in your theory.
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Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.
It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)
Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.
The simplest explanation for those events is what Snail has maintained for years: that the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.
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Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.
It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)
Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.
The simplest explanation for those events is what Snail has maintained for years: that the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.
It doesn't anwer, for instance, the depot case. If the GTVA wanted the ETAK (what they've thought to be a weapon), they would've agreed with Bosch.
And I still say that slaying the dragon's head is much more valuable than trying to get a possible weapon.
Note: "You might be wise to question the wisdom of your leaders" - they were foolish enough to create a rebellion...
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Go make a campaign about it.
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Go make a campaign about it.
FS2 main campaign in a diferent interpretation? I might think about it...
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A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.
True, but this is not the point. "Weapon of mass destruction" doesn't sound like a communications device (although the Shivans always bring mass destruction :p).
A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.
1) Okay. Note that if Bosch IS an allied operative, then he could've helped them dealing with the rebs (he probably did by telling the rallyin point's whereabouts and with the run to the nebula itself - the whole reb fleet has been cramped)
2) The high officers knew everything about ETAK from Bosch,
3/a) A modified cruiser, no more. And, note the debriefing in R&R, Command isn't pleased when the Iceni is destroyed...
3/b) If Bosch didn't help the GTVA, then with the Iceni's destruction everything is gone of ETAK for the GTVA! If he did: they can be sad because they've lost their agent: Bosch.
4) Getting the bad guys together doesn't necessary mean that they'll revolt against you. It was U-N-E-X-P-E-C-T-E-D.
Please! Read my posts again! The ones at the 1st and 2nd pages!
(would anyone create a wiki article about that? :))
Why did you qute Zane to reply to my post? :eek:
1) In order to find the rebel rallying positions you need nothing but scout wings and advanced arrays;
2) Who are you talking about? I'm refering to GTVA pilots and commanders, since they were the ones who let the Iceni escape. Bosch's subordinates have nothing to do with it;
3)
a) First of all, the Iceni is not a cruiser. It's been classified as a frigate, and please keep in mind that the frigate was hidden behind what appeared to be an asteroid base. This clearly means that an advanced weapon could have been housed there. We know for sure that the Iceni has 3 powerful anti-warship beam cannons which would have easily destroyed a medium-to-short blockade force. There was no point in risking a blockade force;
b) With the destruction of the Iceni the ETAK project is gone. It doesn't mean that all knowledge regarding it is gone as well, can you please take note of it? Bosch didn't spread the info, ok, but the GTVA did not know it;
4) I don't think it was unexpected. Also, you're pointing all NTF head members as criminals, which isn't good to hear. They reflected the lost ideals of the Lost Generation plus what, let's say it, every person who lost a beloved relative in the T-V War would think;
It doesn't anwer, for instance, the depot case. If the GTVA wanted the ETAK (what they've thought to be a weapon), they would've agreed with Bosch.
And I still say that slaying the dragon's head is much more valuable than trying to get a possible weapon.
Note: "You might be wise to question the wisdom of your leaders" - they were foolish enough to create a rebellion...
I think you didn't get the point of the depot case. As I said before, the GTVA didn't know wheter or not everything about ETAK (and not actually ETAK itself, I'm refering to its specs!) was housed on the Iceni. It was better to let Bosch keep control of the project instead of sacrificing ships attacking the Iceni (with a debatable outcome).
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I'll create a timeline today. From mission to mission.
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The fact that so many of you categorically dismiss the time-honored "right hand vs. left hand" method of operation going on in the GTVA is slightly disturbing.
Sidenote: This ties in nicely with my theory that Bosch lied to the Shivans, resulting in the Capella supernova.
Bosch has, in the end, always been in this for the good of humanity, according to what he's said. Assuming he discovers that Shivans cannot be dissuaded from genocide, he instead lies to them regarding the GTVA's size, force structure, and capablities, painting what has come so far as mere border skirmish. The Shivans have never demonstrated much interest or capablity in the gathering of intelligence, so there are none to say him nay.
The end result is that the Shivans create the Capella supernova to give themselves breathing room against a non-existent superpower.
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Operative? Igniting a civil war, with a high cost of life, ships, and beer? BLASPHEMY!
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Operative? Igniting a civil war, with a high cost of life, ships, and beer? BLASPHEMY!
More blunt way of what I've been saying.
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Actually, id have though the war would have made bosch beer more popular
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Operative? Igniting a civil war, with a high cost of life, ships, and beer? BLASPHEMY!
More blunt way of what I've been saying.
I've stated at least 10 times that the ppurpose WASN'T to create a rebellion but to collect those who would've been in one. And the theory turned into reality.
(we can even state that the civil war was good for a training, since the GTVA didn't expect a shivan incursion (note that they're sure of their technological superiority)
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"I am merely a fool who created a monster that I am powerless to stop."
Second monologue, sounds a lot like Bosh MADE THE REBELLION HIMSELF.
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"I am merely a fool who created a monster that I am powerless to stop."
Second monologue, sounds a lot like Bosh MADE THE REBELLION HIMSELF.
Can't you see that this is the sentence what undermines the official theory and supports mine? If Bosch is unable to stop the rebellion (thus he is thinking about STOPPING the rebellion) and names his band and all of his own achievement a "monster", then he is probably not happy about the breakout of the WHOLE rebellion. Thus: it wasn't his own idea at all...
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Why gather rebels when you don't want a rebellion?
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Thus: it wasn't his own idea at all...
I don't make things unless I think about doing it first.
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"I am merely a fool who created a monster that I am powerless to stop."
Second monologue, sounds a lot like Bosh MADE THE REBELLION HIMSELF.
Can't you see that this is the sentence what undermines the official theory and supports mine? If Bosch is unable to stop the rebellion (thus he is thinking about STOPPING the rebellion) and names his band and all of his own achievement a "monster", then he is probably not happy about the breakout of the WHOLE rebellion. Thus: it wasn't his own idea at all...
Not really, if his ultimate goal truly was to forge an alliance between the Terrans and the Shivans. He didn't hate the Vasudans yet he ended up forging a rebellion of xenophobic malcontents. Thats the monster he didn't wish to create, the byproduct of his ultimate goal. Instead of being a visionary attempting to secure the future of his race he was viewed as a pariah leading an army of bigots.
It was clear that the NTF was merely a means to an end as far as Bosch was concerned, one that he regretted certainly but still just a pawn in his scheme. Therefore feretting out the rebellious elements of the GTVA certainly wasn't his directive. As far as developing ETAK and establishing relations with the Shivans, the GTA certainly could have done that in a much more simpler and subtle method. It would have been much easier to make it a secret R&D project funded by a few budgetary rounding errors carried out by SOC then a full scale rebellion. Aken Bosch had a dream, one not shared by GTVA command, therefore he needed to go off the reservation to carry it out. He required funding and protection while he developed his translator, therefore he founded the NTF and gathered up all the xenophobes and other dissatisfied elements behind a banner of disenfranchisement. Throughout his monologues it was always his dream and his project, "we" didn't lead his people into the abyss beyond the nebula he did, and "we" weren't fulfilled when the project bore fruit, he was.
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Enough of you!
For the final time: someting went wrong!!!! It always does in FS!
And, what do you think - remeber the GTI rebellion - that the public roar won't come if they'd try to extract Shivan tech? But using what has already been made? An entirely different thing.
The funny thing is, that I am fighting against shadows. Mostly no serious ideas against my idea, BUT stating "OMG-this-is-absurd-and-surely-inst-like-that-and-why-would-they-create-a-rebellion-anyway?". Try to imagine that the idea is true and you'll find the answers for that!
Thanks for the discussion, Mobius and Snail and any of you who actually had resourceful posts. I decided to stop proving this. You might understand - might TRY to understand - this theory once.
You may continue to discuss, I'd love to hear proven opinions. I decided not to participate anymore.
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StarSlayer does have some valid points though.
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Why gather rebels when you don't want a rebellion?
Exactly. Findingout who would be in one was..pointless. Took lives anyways and things never go to plan.
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Reference: Star Wars tFU. Granted, just a game, but same principle.
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Lucika, I believe you need to clarify something about your theory.
Theories can be divided in groups: there are theories that merge canon and non-canon stuff(1) and theories that simply propose a new way to interpret canon(2), with no references other than the ones coming straight from FS1, ST and FS2.
Although I bet you believe your theory belongs to group (2), some of its parts are very (1)-ish. Claiming that all "bad guys" were moved in a single place is pure non-canon assumption with no proofs mixed with canon episodes. Your theories about the missed interceptions of the Iceni also have to deal with logic, since it is clear that the GTVA might have seriously feared ETAK and/or the Iceni's firepower.
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Personally I say that there is no such thing as a waterproof theory (i should know - my raincoat leaks) every theory has holes in it. And even the most bizarre theory has a chance of being right. For example saying that the moon is made of cheese...I'm sure that somewhere in the universe there is a race whose word for rock is "cheese"... or that the Smallest asteroid in the universe is made of blackcurrent jam and speaks kansai-ban japanese
Me i don't buy into the theory that Bosch was really an uber-deek cover operative. I do believe that something fishy was going on. I mean for all we know Bosch may have had supporters in high-level positions within the GTVA - supporters who believed in his dream of allying with the shivans...For all we know there was some "X-files type" conspiricy going on in the GTVA
Given that we know almost nothing about the shivans and that so many questions were left unanswered, just about any theory we could come up with is correct. We know NOTHING about :v: 's plans for what would be resolved in that-game-which-i-dare-not-mention, other than vague comments from them. So just about any theory we could come up with stands a chance of being correct. Of course some stand more chance than others...
I myself have several theories
1) The shivans serve the same purpose in the universe as Gort from The Day the Earth Stood Still
2) The Shivans are heralds of Galactus of some even more advanced race or alliance who make contact with younger races based on how they deal with the shivans - ie they make contact with races capable of defeating or negotiating with the shivans.
3) The Shivan's Enemy Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61273.0.html)
4) The Shivans Insulted Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61127.0.html)
Out of those 4 theories, i personally find 1) and 3) the most likely.
2) is possible. Of course i have to define what i mean by "Contact" ( i vame up with 2) as i was typing)
4) is not very likely but still within the realms of possibility.
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Lucika, I believe you need to clarify something about your theory.
Theories can be divided in groups: there are theories that merge canon and non-canon stuff(1) and theories that simply propose a new way to interpret canon(2), with no references other than the ones coming straight from FS1, ST and FS2.
Although I bet you believe your theory belongs to group (2), some of its parts are very (1)-ish. Claiming that all "bad guys" were moved in a single place is pure non-canon assumption with no proofs mixed with canon episodes. Your theories about the missed interceptions of the Iceni also have to deal with logic, since it is clear that the GTVA might have seriously feared ETAK and/or the Iceni's firepower.
Soon to post it... not having free time now
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Lucika, I believe you need to clarify something about your theory.
Theories can be divided in groups: there are theories that merge canon and non-canon stuff(1) and theories that simply propose a new way to interpret canon(2), with no references other than the ones coming straight from FS1, ST and FS2.
Although I bet you believe your theory belongs to group (2), some of its parts are very (1)-ish. Claiming that all "bad guys" were moved in a single place is pure non-canon assumption with no proofs mixed with canon episodes. Your theories about the missed interceptions of the Iceni also have to deal with logic, since it is clear that the GTVA might have seriously feared ETAK and/or the Iceni's firepower.
You've got to remember that whether a theory is Type 1 or Type 2, they're still not canon.
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You've got to remember that whether a theory is Type 1 or Type 2, they're still not canon.
That is still debatable. A lot of things can be deduced from canon evidences and they're surely far from being non canon. The point is that even the smallest addition, no matter of its significance, would turn a Type 2-like theory into a Type 1-like one.
Derelict and Inferno, for example, are not canon but you can't deny that a Post-Capella GTVA would a) Find a new home for Capellan refugees and b) Reopen the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis. Derelict and Inferno described those facts and even if they're not canon they still focused the attention of two serious issues of the Post-Capella GTVA.
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You've got to remember that whether a theory is Type 1 or Type 2, they're still not canon.
That is still debatable. A lot of things can be deduced from canon evidences and they're surely far from being non canon. The point is that even the smallest addition, no matter of its significance, would turn a Type 2-like theory into a Type 1-like one.
Derelict and Inferno, for example, are not canon but you can't deny that a Post-Capella GTVA would a) Find a new home for Capellan refugees and b) Reopen the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis. Derelict and Inferno described those facts and even if they're not canon they still focused the attention of two serious issues of the Post-Capella GTVA.
Well, yes, you can deny that, because it's not canon, it's just a theory.
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*facepalm*
The whole Tau Sigma issue is not canon because it's fanmade but the Capellan refugees issue is a canon one, easily deduced. It's likely to be one of the major issues of the early Post-Capella period.
Same for the Sol Gate. The GTI Melia is not canon, nor is Inferno, but the fact that the GTVA has the knowledge to reopen the jump node after the Second Shivan Incursion is canon. It's even mentioned by Petrach at the end. Reopening the node would be an important Post-Capella issue, possibly much more important than the Capellan refugees.
I'd like to know if you can deny those facts. :rolleyes:
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I can't.
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You can't say that any fan-made theories are canon, period. End of story.
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Who said that they're canon? All I said is that what they're based on is canon. :rolleyes:
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Shockingly, I completely agree with Mobius on this point. One obviously can't say that any specific campaign, or even idea, taking place after the end of FS2 is canon, but the two issues he mentioned are established by the canon material of FS2 and would obviously be concerns in the period afterwards. We know there are now 250 million Capellan refugees that the GTVA will have to deal with somehow, and we can at least surmise that further research into studies of the Knossos gate will eventually lead the GTVA to a point where they're able to construct one of their own, or at least leave them far closer to being able to re-establish contact with Sol than they were before FS2. None of this is coming from outside of the game.
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*facepalm*
The whole Tau Sigma issue is not canon because it's fanmade but the Capellan refugees issue is a canon one, easily deduced. It's likely to be one of the major issues of the early Post-Capella period.
Same for the Sol Gate. The GTI Melia is not canon, nor is Inferno, but the fact that the GTVA has the knowledge to reopen the jump node after the Second Shivan Incursion is canon. It's even mentioned by Petrach at the end. Reopening the node would be an important Post-Capella issue, possibly much more important than the Capellan refugees.
I'd like to know if you can deny those facts. :rolleyes:
Sure, sure, we can suppose that these logical issues will be handled logically. But that doesn't mean we 'can't deny' that this will happen. We can deny it and instead suppose that in FS3 the GTVA would've become a whimpering, huddling wreck.
And if FS3 did that, instead of dealing with the refugee issue or the return to Earth, that would be canon. So yes, until it's canon, we can deny it all we want.
Shockingly, I completely agree with Mobius on this point. One obviously can't say that any specific campaign, or even idea, taking place after the end of FS2 is canon, but the two issues he mentioned are established by the canon material of FS2 and would obviously be concerns in the period afterwards. We know there are now 250 million Capellan refugees that the GTVA will have to deal with somehow, and we can at least surmise that further research into studies of the Knossos gate will eventually lead the GTVA to a point where they're able to construct one of their own, or at least leave them far closer to being able to re-establish contact with Sol than they were before FS2. None of this is coming from outside of the game.
See above -- it's very logical, I agree that this is what would happen next, it's all firmly based on canon, but we don't know it would happen until it happens, which it never will.
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See above -- it's very logical, I agree that this is what would happen next, it's all firmly based on canon, but we don't know it would happen until it happens, which it never will.
And neither of us said that either of those two events will certainly happen, just that they are definitely issues that will be present in the post-Capella period due to what unfolded during FS2. Whether they would have wound up being resolved or not is up to the nonexistent sequel. :p
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As long as you don't say random stuff is certainly canon I'm fine with it.
What really pisses me off is when people come out and say "My theory is canon!!"
IMO, if it's not specifically said by :v:, it's not canon. Otherwise it's fanon.
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Otherwise it's fanon.
It's not fanon. Do you even know what does fanon stand for?
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If I know well, fanon is the part of the canon what the community accepts as canon... am I correct?
(By the way, I still owe a post of my theory. I WILL do it, I promise :))
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If I know well, fanon is the part of the canon what the community accepts as canon... am I correct?
More like "widely accepted", which means that it's intended to fill the gaps in canon, but still in an unofficial way.
Non-canon and fanon are not the same thing.
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If I know well, fanon is the part of the canon what the community accepts as canon... am I correct?
More like "widely accepted", which means that it's intended to fill the gaps in canon, but still in an unofficial way.
Non-canon and fanon are not the same thing.
So, for instance, ST:R is fanon?
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So, for instance, ST:R is fanon?
I don't think so. Although it's a very cool campaign many of its plot choices aren't accepted by everyone. Snail, for example, didn't like the fact that the GTI was "reduced" to a bunch of Vasudan haters in ST:R.
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More like "widely accepted", which means that it's intended to fill the gaps in canon, but still in an unofficial way.
Which is what I meant.
If it's just a theory that isn't canon, but is still accepted, it's still non-canon. It's fanon.
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"Widely accepted" is a bit ambiguous, IMO, because it's very hard to create something the whole community is likely to accept.
Derelict is very good and popular, but not everyone would like it to be considered fanon.
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Ok, how about this.
Everything which is not in the game or otherwise confirmed by :v:, is non-canon.
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Looks like the American continent has been discovered a second time. Thank you, Snail, for telling us humans something we would have never thought of. :p
Fanon is to fill gaps in canon, like the GTVA fleet assignments made by a fellow member...uhm...I don't remember his name.
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What's going on, Mobius? You seem really tense.
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Ok, how about this.
Everything which is not in the game or otherwise confirmed by :v:, is non-canon.
By the way, the only thing I want is to convince everyone that my theory is possible and plausible.
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*facepalm*
The whole Tau Sigma issue is not canon because it's fanmade but the Capellan refugees issue is a canon one, easily deduced. It's likely to be one of the major issues of the early Post-Capella period.
Same for the Sol Gate. The GTI Melia is not canon, nor is Inferno, but the fact that the GTVA has the knowledge to reopen the jump node after the Second Shivan Incursion is canon. It's even mentioned by Petrach at the end. Reopening the node would be an important Post-Capella issue, possibly much more important than the Capellan refugees.
I'd like to know if you can deny those facts. :rolleyes:
Cant deny it!
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Fanon doesn't actually exist, its just bollocks thought up by fans who want to make their perceptions seem more important.
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Fanon doesn't actually exist, its just bollocks thought up by fans who want to make their perceptions seem more important.
I don't think so unless there are extremely arrogant fans behind certain fanon stuff.
Overall, well-planned fanon helps filling the gaps left by canon so that campaign creators can rely on additional concepts when designing their missions.
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Overall, well-planned fanon helps filling the gaps left by canon so that campaign creators can rely on additional concepts when designing their missions.
Yeah, for example Su-tehp's fleet assignments (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Terran_Fleet_Organization).
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Yeah - I wanted to mention those earlier in this thread, but I didn't remember the creator's nickname. :)