[Phantom Hoover]

Can't they? And why would they need a human weapon to be able to think?

They can't; Shivan 'thought' is all handled by animas which are come into being on an ad-hoc basis and basically blindly probe at a problem until they find something that works. They are very thoroughly built to avoid analysing and comprehending the world around them; which is, I think, why they need to bother incorporating a human when necessary.

[General Battuta]

There are the basal state totipotent response heuristics too, which while not locally efficient are globally quite powerful.

[leoben]

Phantom - you're scratching the surface of a contradiction. By saying the Shivans can't think themselves and need something external, you're implying they are already capable of independent thought as they're aware of their 'deficiency'. How do you get around that?

[Phantom Hoover]

The thing you're talking about is the basal state totipotent response heuristics Battuta just mentioned. But they can't plan and coordinate in the same way or on the same scale as a human, or a gestalt of humans, can.

[Husker]

What if Shambala is a shivan plan to unite the humans in sol into a gestalt consciousness in order to use them as an intelligence to coordinate on a multiversal scale? 

[Phantom Hoover]

That would rather defeat the point of being organised the way they are in the first place.

[leoben]

I agree with Phantom - Shambala has to be based on something that was intended to be a potential solution for the 'Shivan problem'. And according to Ken, it is now something more than that.

[Tegumiril]

I freely admit that I read through the first page or two of the discussion, then jumped in at the end in order to say some things that someone else has said at least 7 times.

A: Shambala seems to be a metaphor for utopia, enlightenment, or transcendence. Expect any use or purpose to revolve around this theme. So some groovy new superweapon would not be in keeping with that use of metaphor, or its Ubuntu creators.

B: The Shamwow project would likely be a nagari link to bring humanity into some state of "summed psyche." This seems to be something the Vishnans were intent on doing any how. At least before we pissed them off.

C: The arrival of the GTVA and 14th Battlegroup being a catalyst for the development of this project is explained fairly easily: The 14th BG, and the people in it brought knowledge relating to ETAK and quantum pulse/nagari communications. They also brought along Sam Bei. This would allow several things; non nagari sensitives to communicate with Vishnans/Shivans/Other Nagari sensitives, and some mechanism to bring non-sensitive people into into such a linkage, as well as the vishnan provided expertise to make it happen.

D: If you instantaneously linked the whole of humanity (across the multiverse?) in some form into a melded group consciousness, that'd end your war then and there. An example of such a group consciousness is our good Fedayeen friend Al. Though comprised of many individuals, he is the gestalt of the Fedayeen, and those group consciousnesses end up being melded into a single discreet personality or entity.

C: If the Fedayeen have a gestalt which represents the "Summed Psyche" of the Fedayeen, and at its essence IS the Fedayeen, what would the Gestalt consciousness of humanity look like? That's probably what has given the Shivans cause for concern. Raw human nature is not someone I'd like to meet at night down a dark alley. Such an entity would likely be incredibly powerful in its own right, and upset the balance of power between the Shivans and Vishnans. Which likely strikes directly at the Vishnan's ulterior motives.

E: For my part I hope the Shivans win. Melded consciousness, particularly if forced in some fashion, is an incredibly creepy thought. (We are Ubuntu, resistance is futile!)

Still, BP has till now been a particularly intriguing and thought provoking story. I'm enjoying it.

PS: Feel free to tell me which parts of the wheel I was busy re-inventing.

[BritishShivans]

That sounds interesting, but the idea of a relatively young species becoming a gestalt consciousness and then suddenly being able to threaten the balance of power for a billions of year old multi-universal entity is laughable.

[Luis Dias]

Feel free to tell me which parts of the wheel I was busy re-inventing.

No problem .

A. Yes, this is the main line of analysis.
B. Yes.
C. This might be a novel variation I am not entirely sure. Still I am not looking too much into that variation. The idea that an admiral or the Sanctuary has enough engineering intel about the ETAK project is something that seems stretching to me. It might play a role, however the main catalyst for me is the urgency of the matter (given how the FEDs defeat is inevitable, a matter of time) and the silence of the Vishnans.
D. Of course, this and the consequences of this (for it is unclear for the parties what will happen in this moment to humanity) is a very big motivator for Steele and the morpheus contingency. A kind of "Childhood's End" scenario that could be either the creation of paradise or hell.
E (C?). This is somewhat speculative. Vishnans and Shivans span in multiple universes, while terrans are just some tens of billions of souls in ten or twenty systems. It seems a bit jarring and pretentious the idea that these "ants" would be a threat to any of these species, although the cliché is widely used out there. It is just "something about us humans", etc. What pretentious shenanigan, I have no desire to watch any of that garbage, and I think I can safely say the devs are also very watchful of that blunder.
F (E?). Consider that Ken is such a melded consciousness, consider that Al Dawa is such a consciousness. Clearly the Shivans also indulge in this consciousness melding technology, albeit seemingly to different ends. A minor (though interesting) variation of the possibilities hints at the Vishnans being a very very old Shivan anima themselves that were created either for uplifting a previous living species (like the Brahmans, say), which could have had happened in the so-called "apocalypse" some billions of years ago, or alternatively they were "uplifted" into a summed psyche by the Shivans to solve the Great Darkness problem (again, possibly related to that apocalypse). Because that particular problem is so big, so became the Vishnans. Many possibilities here. The vishnans might have reached independence from the shivans (or were always so), they might be harvesting lower species to get more numbers for their SP, etc.,etc..

Last, welcome to HLPBB!

[Tegumiril]

Thanks for the welcome!

For my E(C?): I didn't posit that with the idea of "Ameri- err Humanity, **** yeah!" there was some reasoning behind it.

Consider the Vishnans and Shivans as two ancient, multidimensional, and essentially balanced forces that balance each other out.

Also consider the multi-dimensional nature of those entities, and the possibility that nagari links can also span dimensions.

Consider that this would mean a link that encompasses more than a few billion humans in our "Home Layer" but humanity across multiple dimensions.

If humanity was linked across the multiverse (multiple dimensions) any resulting entity would be minor in absolute terms relative to the power of the Vishnans or Shivans

And now to the point:

If the balance of power between Vishnans and Shivans is that fine, then any new disruptive element, even a relatively minor one, could disrupt the balance of power. In essence the straw that broke the camel's back. If the Vishnans have a sneaky ulterior motive, or the Shivans suspect them of one, then this might provide some insight into the activities and motivations of the Shivans.

[leoben]

Tegumiril - welcome!

Several dialogues in AoA and WiH point to a relationship a lot more complex, than simply two multidimensional super-races upholding a balance of power. In fact, the Vishnans seemed to be in a position to de facto overrule Shivans in the Summed Psyche at some point. Furthermore, another dialogue hints at the Shivans being eternal, something that was 'calculated', rather than born, or created. Vishnans (to me at least), seem to be a bit more analogous to a transcended super-race, or even a collection of 'uplifted' races.

Imagine these two 'entities' having existed for millions of years. Now even if humanity ascends to a multiversal consciousness, across dimensions, universes, they're still babies, infants being thrown into the big league where the other players may have grown by orders of magnitudes more powerful over millions of years. Don't kid yourself - even so, humanity will still be considered by the Vishnans or the Shivans little more than tiny, harmless insects, in a realm of giants. Maybe just smart enough to avoid annihilation, extinction.

"...Don't kid yourself, we're the ones being hunted, pilot!..."

[Luis Dias]

If the balance of power between Vishnans and Shivans is that fine, then any new disruptive element, even a relatively minor one, could disrupt the balance of power. In essence the straw that broke the camel's back.

Yeah, General Battuta has already hinted at this. It's because the Shivans and the Vishnans are so worried with each other we will be able to have a shot at escaping their claws.

[perihelion]

The creation of a Nagari-inhabiting human gestalt consciousness does not necessarily imply that the humans creating it have to die, if the technology works right.  But humanity would be creating a new free-agent of similar threat level to the Vishnans and Shivans.

Even if it is initially well disposed towards the human "remnant," it might not stay that way.  Odds are its development would not proceed at the same pace as base humanity.

Just some thoughts to stir the pot.

[Tegumiril]

Hrrm, I concede the point. At any rate, looking forward to part 4.

[General Battuta]

Bumping A Good Thread

[rance]

(I'm going to pour oil onto this ember to get it burning)

Shambala is Alpaha !s and theyz gonna ues him to blewd up all teh GTAV pew pew!

But seriously I think to balance both Victory and Ubuntu it has to be some way to stop the war without bloodshed. Now initially I thought this may come in the form of destroying what the GTVA seek, Earth, by threatening to destroy it somehow; however this theory is shattered when given some thought and also when combined with what we currently now about Shambala. Another way to end the war with a UEF victory is for the GTVA being forced to surrender, I believe that if the Vasudans could be turned to the UEF side then the GTVA would have to immediately surrender or face annihilation, however I believe that at this current stage this won't happen for thematic reasons. Here's my current theory. The GTVA started the war to stop Ubuntu influence from 'infecting' their populous, as this would ultimately lead to their downfall. What if Shambala is someway of forcing their populous into an Ubuntu mindset via some kind of Nagari influencing? That would cause the GTVA to collapse and thus end the war. I realize that this theory doesn't match some of our knowledge on Shambala, for example how would this prevent a Shivan attack? But non the less I think this can add to this discussion which is one I'd like to see more of. 

(Please forgive me for any spelling or grammar errors)

[redsniper]

It's a way to unleash the Great Darkness and one-shot all Nagari sensitives in Sol. Have to kill ALL of them for it to work. It's the only way to be sure.

Fake edit: I mean that's what MORPHEUS is. Idk wtf Shambala is, nm.

[Doko]

I've been staring at this question for a long time and this is my theory.

Shambala is an artifact / artificial node capable of permanently isolating earth from the rest of subspace, masking its presense or diverting trafic that atempted to emerge somewhere else. How I have no ****ing idea (lucifer tech / vishnans?) But everything else I come up with is either cheesy or involves inter dimensional/galactic travel and that seems too far fetched for the level of technology and maybe power available to terrans at this point.
From what the elder says this would fit the ubuntu ideals, any gtva forces in sol would be stuck there and have no choice but to join. It might keep the shivans away from earth which the vishnans should be happy about considering their previous argument with shiva during UT1 and the shivans couldn't interefere with ubuntu development.

It's not pretty but the information on shambala is so scarse I would feel more confident in making theories about GD at this point, but best not to dwell too much on that. Either way the whole war seems to be about who inherits the right to interpret the text of the terminal protocol and If I had to guess Laporte is "the payload" Capella is expecting as a way to kill the vishnan psyche, if the UEF dies so does laporte due to morpheus, this drops any interest the shivans(ken) might have to keep humanity around after having given the cull order by the vishnans.

I've been thinking about this too much and forgot to try out my new human skin suit, wouldn't want it to get dry... it's gonna itch later.

[Leeko]

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of the "humanity's summed psyche" theory about Shambhala. Definitely could be considered a "reprehensible gamble", and it would definitely end the war.