Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Aesaar on January 22, 2014, 08:53:00 pm
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Now showing only the Herc II.
Hades and I have been working on this for a day or so now. Based on this concept (http://oi53.tinypic.com/28akrw2.jpg) by StarSlayer. Still WiP.
Our plan is to also do the Ares, Perseus, and Erinyes, all mostly based on StarSlayer's concept art.
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You've been doing wat?
Oh boy.
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The design looks like a concept that was a competitor to the Herc.II that didn't get chosen, kinda like the way the YF-23 lost to the YF-22. Since the original Herc was constructed by Han-Roland Corp. and the Herc.II was by RNI Systems, perhaps this was the Han-Roland Corp's entry into the fighter design competition, as it has generally the same layout and and apparent firepower as the Herc.II, but it retains the more angular lines of the original Herc.
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I quite like it, but the middle body seems *much* too spindly/thin now that I've seen the model.
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The MediaVP Herc 2, with all due respect to the original creator, was always somewhat odd looking, especially the texture, so I'm really keen to see another take on it. Will be watching with interest.
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I quite like it, but the middle body seems *much* too spindly/thin now that I've seen the model.
yeah, we'll be working on this (by we, I mean Aesaar though we both agreed with you)
The MediaVP Herc 2, with all due respect to the original creator, was always somewhat odd looking, especially the texture, so I'm really keen to see another take on it. Will be watching with interest.
It's a granite potato. The retail model isn't amazing, either.
The design looks like a concept that was a competitor to the Herc.II that didn't get chosen, kinda like the way the YF-23 lost to the YF-22. Since the original Herc was constructed by Han-Roland Corp. and the Herc.II was by RNI Systems, perhaps this was the Han-Roland Corp's entry into the fighter design competition, as it has generally the same layout and and apparent firepower as the Herc.II, but it retains the more angular lines of the original Herc.
That's interesting, though the reason we went this route is because we thought the Herc 2 was actually a bit too curvy and formless as a result.
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I like it so far, I always felt that Herc 2 was a bit too rounded to be a true successor and this version gets back some of the blocky feel of it's predecessor nicely while still having some more modern like curves.
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That's interesting, though the reason we went this route is because we thought the Herc 2 was actually a bit too curvy and formless as a result.
:confused: Can you say that for the rest of the FS2 fighters?
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I can not tell you how dumb I look with the smile on my face right now.
It feels like it brings back the classic Herc feel. Keep going in this direction.
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I like your polygons
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I also like this redesign.
It looks more an evolution of the Herc than the old model.
it has the Herc (1) form, but very modernized.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Hunter :cool:
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Looks great, excited to see this one get an upgrade. [edit] nvm, lrnd 2 red
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So yeah I've made it clear on IRC that I think this design discards a perfectly good Herc 2 concept for dumb reasons like being "too round", but apparently I'm the only one who thinks FS2 ships should be sleek to distinguish them from FS1 designs. So it goes.
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I second that notion.
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Having had another look, I definitely see where Trivial Psychic is coming from in that it's a Herc 2 alternative design rather than an actual herc 2 - in profile especially, it looks almost like a Herc 1.5, in some ways. Apologies for the imagebin link, tinypic wouldn't work for some reason:
http://imagebin.org/288277
I think, when you look at the retail model side on, [V] were definitely going for a curvy look for the Herc 2 - probably trying to represent a sort of blending of Terran and Vasudan design ethos. I think the overall design is really good, and a big improvement over the current MediaVP herc, but I think a slight softening of the engines' forward corner (or maybe corners if the one above the forwardmost point changed too) into a forward curve would go a long, long way towards bringing in the retail profile (and therefore the overall look) while maintaining the uniqueness of the current direction.
Also, is the "chest" above the spike meant to stick out so far forward? It kind of looks like it's toting about an underslung gun or something?
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Holy crap! Are people getting upset by Hades designs for being. . . not curvy enough! :lol:
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Buck Teeth.
That is all. You can thank me later with Cannot Unsee posts.
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Holy crap! Are people getting upset by Hades designs for being. . . not curvy enough! :lol:
I was about to say, I hope the irony is not lost on everyone. :p
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Where's this starslayer concept art at?
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It's, uhh, linked to in the first post.
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The rest of his FS2 concepts are here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=46790.msg1473795#msg1473795), too.
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It's too blocky. Herc II was always rather curvy and smooth. This looks like an alternate version. I suppose it would be nice to have regardless, but as a different ship, not as a normal Herc II.
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Black Wolf had it exactly right when he called it a Herc 1.5: Starslayer even explicitly said he was trying to reimagine FS2 fighters in the style of FS1. I don't really think that's a good direction for FSU to go.
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Okay, I can see this thread going straight into bad feedback territory.
A few things you should consider before posting stuff like "It's too blocky!" "It's not like the Herc 2!":
1. This model is not intended to be a replacement for the Herc 2 as it is in the MediaVPs. While it would be nice to have a replacement for that model and its textures, this probably won't be it.
2. It is based on concept art that explicitly deviated from the original :V: designs
As such, evaluate this model on the basis of how well it translates the concept art, and other general modelling stuff. Don't get your panties in a twist over how well this does as a 1:1 replacement for the old Herc 2.
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Ah. If that's the case, it's great. Much better than the :v: design, in fact. :) It actually looks like it could have something in common with the original Herc.
Oh, and shouldn't this thread be in modding? If it's not intended to go into Mediavps, I don't see why it'd be in FSUP board. Moving this to modding would probably make it easier to avoid confusion and the following negative feedback.
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Ah. If that's the case, it's great. Much better than the :v: design, in fact. :) It actually looks like it could have something in common with the original Herc.
Oh, and shouldn't this thread be in modding? If it's not intended to go into Mediavps, I don't see why it'd be in FSUP board. Moving this to modding would probably make it easier to avoid confusion and the following negative feedback.
Well, we put it here because we'll both personally be using it as the Herc 2 model and we are putting it out there for potential FSU use. I mean, it deviates about as much as some of the current models in the MVPs at the moment (Cain comes to mind).
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Aye, what dragon said. I originally thought this was an awesome remake/reimagination of the Herc II, then I saw that this was in FSU so came to the same conclusion as most everyone else here.
If it does not have to meet FSU requirements then yeah, it's a beautiful idea of how the Herc II could look. It's angular, it's mean, it's detailed, it actually has an interesting shape, and I look forward to seeing where this, and the other promised models, end(s) up.
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Well, we put it here because we'll both personally be using it as the Herc 2 model and we are putting it out there for potential FSU use. I mean, it deviates about as much as some of the current models in the MVPs at the moment (Cain comes to mind).
An FSU representative stated he's not interested in using it and nobody cares what you do to your own FSO installs. If it stays here, criticism will resume once this thread gets to 3rd page. It's a neat model, but doesn't really have much to do with FSU.
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An FSU representative stated he's not interested in using it and nobody cares what you do to your own FSO installs. If it stays here, criticism will resume once this thread gets to 3rd page. It's a neat model, but doesn't really have much to do with FSU.
For one, the FSU isn't decided by the word of one, single member and he didn't say that, he either said it might not go in or that it wouldn't be a replacement for the Herc 2 as we know it (basically, awknowledging that it's not the exact same as the Herc 2's design but it's still a strong enough model to go in).
However, with that in mind, complaining about it not being as curvy as the original design when that's a fundamental design choice we went into this with isn't going to do any good and it's not constructive, which I think was the main point of The_E's post.
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Just out of curiosity, why base these ships on Starslayer's concept art? Don't misunderstand, this isn't a complaint or a challenge. I'm curious because most models done here rely heavily on retail, whereas this seems to rely more on non-volition concept art. For the record, I'm quite open to more dramatic changes in design than some folks here. For example, during the debate over a hex vs round opening on the new arcadia, I would have been completely fine with completely round with no hex at all. So what is it about Starslayer's concept art that persuaded you to take this direction instead of relying more heavily on retail or even a redesign of the current htl model?
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Ah, okay, I understand now. In this case, disregard everything I said in my previous post. As a piece of concept art translation, it's a fine WiP and obviously going good places.
That said, I think it probably should have been put in FS Modding, if only to prevent misunderstandings like that - at the very least a little disclaimer in the first page to emphasize that it's not meant to be a direct Herc 2 replacement, and maybe to put into context Starslayer's designs as deliberately FS1esque evolutionary designs. As it stands, in this sub-forum, I t think it's entirely reasonable for people to assume it's meant to be a direct Herc 2 replacement, and so to question the degree of curviness is legitimate in that context.
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That is fair. I've moved the thread accordingly.
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Just out of curiosity, why base these ships on Starslayer's concept art? Don't misunderstand, this isn't a complaint or a challenge. I'm curious because most models done here rely heavily on retail, whereas this seems to rely more on non-volition concept art. For the record, I'm quite open to more dramatic changes in design than some folks here. For example, during the debate over a hex vs round opening on the new arcadia, I would have been completely fine with completely round with no hex at all. So what is it about Starslayer's concept art that persuaded you to take this direction instead of relying more heavily on retail or even a redesign of the current htl model?
The fact that both of us absolutely loathe the retail Herc2's appearance, and so have no interest whatsoever in making a faithful HTL of it.
This isn't true of the Perseus and Erinyes, but we think StarSlayer's work is interesting enough to model. There are plenty of other people who would be willing to make faithful HTLs of those.
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I was never fan of retail Herc 2, as it was as Hades said "a potato" with a fin, engines and cockpit. Alrough this one does not follow original lines, I really like this redesign as it resembles first Hercules much more than retail Herc II. I will find the Trinity again in the cockpit of this beauty with great pleasure :yes:
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Oh hey look at that! Pretty snazzy :D
I'm lucky I randomly opened this thread.
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I'm totally up for a mini-mod that swaps the model(s?) for yours. I like this rendition more than :v:'s. :yes:
PS: Nice Hyperion too ;)
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Don't listen to the haters. Can I have this in my FSU?
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Critique isn't hate.
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Me want the reimagined Deimos class NOW !! :)
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I'll make a few suggestions, as mentioned thickening up the central fuselage while trimming down the width of the engine pods might be worth checking out. I might also make the fronts of the pods a slightly more rounded rather than come to a flat face. I think that will help with the center fuselage to bulky pods issue and bring it more in line with the original Herc II. The only other thing that I'll mention is the guns and access panels on the original design were meant to be pretty low profile/stealthy. Having visible muzzles and extruded panels makes it look a little robust and aggressive but I liked the idea of having them all integral like a modern aircraft. That said the last item is more a stylistic choice for you folks to figure out.
Anyway just a few ideas to kick around, so far its a great start and I look forward to seeing things develop. :yes:
I'll be glad to provide any further input if you wish.
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I'll make a few suggestions, as mentioned thickening up the central fuselage while trimming down the width of the engine pods might be worth checking out. I might also make the fronts of the pods a slightly more rounded rather than come to a flat face. I think that will help with the center fuselage to bulky pods issue and bring it more in line with the original Herc II. The only other thing that I'll mention is the guns and access panels on the original design were meant to be pretty low profile/stealthy. Having visible muzzles and extruded panels makes it look a little robust and aggressive but I liked the idea of having them all integral like a modern aircraft. That said the last item is more a stylistic choice for you folks to figure out.
Anyway just a few ideas to kick around, so far its a great start and I look forward to seeing things develop. :yes:
I'll be glad to provide any further input if you wish.
Aesaar has the mesh currently but fixing the proportions was the main thing he said he'll be working on today. Aye, currently, the front sidepod 'edges' are things we're looking at, they're as Caiaphas put it "in limbo", we're either going to tighten them or loosen them, though I am curious to know if you think them being more edge-like or rounded would look better? (In fact, do you think making them rounded instead of having a flat face looks better or is that mainly to make it resemble the original more?)
I think that aggressive might be the look to go with the Herc 2 and Ares, personally. Visually, it helps hint at their purpose better, though I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this bit.
Thank you for the ideas! They're incredibly helpful and please, don't hesitate to provide any input as you see fit. If it weren't for you, I don't think we'd actually be doing this.
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I opted for a low pro weapons load out for two main reasons, one was I wanted a clean modern fighter look similar to a F22 or PAK and second was that nearly all the FS2 Gen strike craft save the Boanerges came loaded as such. I felt the integral systems displayed technical progression over the earlier great War counterparts that all had exposed muzzles. Though the obvious barrels are rough and ready looking so I leave it as a style choice for you folks to decide.
As for the pods I might try a more type wedge front, I think it makes it a little sleeker looking and eliminates forward facing radar reflective surfaces. I roughed out two variants that might be worth trying:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2gtzrj8.png)
Anyway you can make whatever tweaks to the design you think work best.
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My opinion of what goes on with FSU doesn't matter, of course, but for the record, I think this is a hell of a lot more "Hercules" than the original Herc II. I never understood why :v: took a badass block of armor and guns and turned it into an absurd space balloon. The Herc II is a decent craft to fly, but it just never really fit in with the Terran aesthetic.
Regardless of what happens officially with this model, I'll be using it. It's an excellent homage to the original Herc and doesn't look so out of place in the FS2 Terran fleet.
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Great model! I always wondered how the Terran FS2 ships would have looked without Vasudan influence.
Tho I idly wonder how this Herc-II would look with Perseus wings added... (In fact it could wind up looking kinda modular if that route were chosen.)
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Critique isn't hate.
I'm not saying critique is hate. However:
"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."
Well, I happen to think it is worth considering using, but that's just me. [edit] Hell, maybe the creators thought it might be nice to update the Herc II again and this model would good enough for FSU, but the purists immediately jumped on their **** for it not being round enough. No one bothered to even ask them before pulling out the pitchforks over the model not being "true enough" to the original. But whatever.[/edit]
I don't mind installing it as a separate mod to keep the masses happy though.
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There's constant tension between creative freedom and fidelity to the original models in the FSU. I think it's always worth talking about that dialogue, and I suspect the FSU appreciates the feedback as long as it's civil.
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"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."
Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than :v: idea of Herc II.
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Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than :v: idea of Herc II.
Many models have been re-imagined already. But it's fine, everyone, it's fine. I'll happily use the work these folks are putting into these models in my own special modded version. That's the beauty of mods.
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"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."
Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than :v: idea of Herc II.
Our Herc 2 is no different to the original as the Cain is to the original. Would you really prefer throwing out a fantastic model and texture and instead have a horrible mess simply because of this?
(http://i.imgur.com/pniNqXT.png)
(Lilith is used, but other than a couple strips of polygons and not being too chrome to see)
I opted for a low pro weapons load out for two main reasons, one was I wanted a clean modern fighter look similar to a F22 or PAK and second was that nearly all the FS2 Gen strike craft save the Boanerges came loaded as such. I felt the integral systems displayed technical progression over the earlier great War counterparts that all had exposed muzzles. Though the obvious barrels are rough and ready looking so I leave it as a style choice for you folks to decide.
As for the pods I might try a more type wedge front, I think it makes it a little sleeker looking and eliminates forward facing radar reflective surfaces. I roughed out two variants that might be worth trying:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2gtzrj8.png)
Anyway you can make whatever tweaks to the design you think work best.
e: didn't see this, but thank you for your input. I'll talk to Aesaar about this.
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Actually, your Herc II is much more radical departure than the new Cain. If you look at them, the biggest change is a slight repositioning of the turrets. The rest is precisely replicated in high detail, right down to those odd bumps on the inner side of the arms. If anything, I'd bring Boanerges as an example of a "reimagined" model in Mediavps. And I'm only willing to put up with Boa because the sole alternative is a retail model. If we didn't have a decent Herc II already, this one could possibly go in.
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Shivan models are another story. While the Cain and Lilith are as old as FS1 is, c915 had a big field for his imagination HTLing them. HTL Demon that Esarai is making is a big departure from the original, but these are shivan ships and they are many ways to HTL them. You just have to keep them semi-organic, and there are many ways to do this. Both Esarai and c914 are great at this. This Herc is terran ship, and while it should resemble original design as much as it's possible, this one is better than the original. I would accept this as HTL Herc II, because it's cool. I'm not sure if this should become MediaVP Herc II... Well, dunno. It's not depending on me. I just wish you guys goodluck on this. This model is welcome no matter if it appear in MediaVPs or as independent download.
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Actually, your Herc II is much more radical departure than the new Cain. If you look at them, the biggest change is a slight repositioning of the turrets. The rest is precisely replicated in high detail, right down to those odd bumps on the inner side of the arms. If anything, I'd bring Boanerges as an example of a "reimagined" model in Mediavps. And I'm only willing to put up with Boa because the sole alternative is a retail model. If we didn't have a decent Herc II already, this one could possibly go in.
The Cain's detail is an entire departure from the retail model's other than that one bit. The lower two arms aren't as angled as on the retail mesh (they're more 'flat' along the horizontal axis), the angle of the tips of the arms is flipped, the side of it around the missile launcher is all changed, and the bottom completely ignores the texture. In fact, I'd say that, much like our Herc 2, the main thing it has in common is the general shape and placement of things.
I was more posting that example to see if you're consistent or not. Well, the result is fairly obvious now.
Shivan models are another story. While the Cain and Lilith are as old as FS1 is, c915 had a big field for his imagination HTLing them. HTL Demon that Esarai is making is a big departure from the original, but these are shivan ships and they are many ways to HTL them. You just have to keep them semi-organic, and there are many ways to do this. Both Esarai and c914 are great at this. This Herc is terran ship, and while it should resemble original design as much as it's possible, this one is better than the original. I would accept this as HTL Herc II, because it's cool. I'm not sure if this should become MediaVP Herc II... Well, dunno. It's not depending on me. I just wish you guys goodluck on this. This model is welcome no matter if it appear in MediaVPs or as independent download.
This is literally arguable for every single race. There's a ton you can do with the Typhon, Hecate, and Orion. Esarai's detail is actually fairly well inspired from the retail texture (go look at the top of the head and at his).
Again, you've got to be consistent. There's the Aesthma, which also resembles the original fighter in shape and placement mainly, would you argue against it too? Consistency, folks. It's incredibly important.
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I've thought about this and I think the reason I'd give the Cain a pass is that whilst it does have some significant departures from the retail appearance, it's still modelled in the same spirit. Whereas what you and Aesaar have done is declared that the retail Herc 2 is a piece of **** and you're going to make your own, better version. And your model is excellent, it's just explicitly not a Herc 2.
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The retail Cain and the HTL look pretty much the same to me, the HTL just seems like a faithful update.
Anyway I'm with Betrayal, just make a cool model and we'll figure out what to do with it afterward.
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So let's call a spade a spade then...
If someone dislikes this model as an HTL Herc 2 they...
A: Agree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus this the person is obligated to accept this model as a Herc 2.
B: Disagree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus the person is a hippocrite.
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Except nope:
The retail Cain and the HTL look pretty much the same to me, the HTL just seems like a faithful update.
Lilith isn't too much of a departure from the retail model. Both it and Cain are faithful HTLs, as Battuta said. FS1 models are noticeably less detailed than FS2 ones, meaning more leeway is possible. The new Demon isn't that much of a departure from the FS1 one, either, but that's because you can't really depart from something so bland without making it unrecognizable (indeed, there was a big discussion about what to do with Demon, because it doesn't give you a lot of clues on additional detail that could be modeled). Much like with Cain, you only need to replicate certain distinctive features, because there's hardly anything in the model aside from them. Now, Herc II is a different story, being an FS2 model, and thus more detail to go off. This model is clearly a different thing than Herc II, while the Herc II currently in Mediavps is a faithful update, if old-ish.
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How about we have this argument after the model's done.
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Seeing as how the modelers themselves are comparing this to the current/retail Herc II, it would be unfair to judge the model on its own merit.
I prefer the :v: Herc II because of its consistency with the other FS2 Terran crafts: the curves. It's what "differentiates" FS2 Terrans from FS1s by the time of FS2 retail. Thematically, the sleek ship designs are what separates the GTVA from the NTF and the reactionaries from progress.
As it stands now, the Herc II looks too blocky because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the Terran fighters. Maybe when you're done with your shipset, the ships will look great together. But right now, it doesn't fit in with its sleeker cousins.
One thing of note: If you don't mirror the UV map and happen to be able to add the 02 back to the Herc II, that would be awesome.
EDIT: If we were to judge this model on its own, whoever said that this ship might have been a failed competitor or prototype is pretty spot on in my opinion. It could even be the Herc II from Earth. If the Herc's performance was so legendary that even the GTVA decided to have a successor ready in 32 years, it's not implausible that the Hercs were remembered in alternate universes either.
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Look, they've claimed they're not submitting this as an FSU model, and it's been moved out of the FSU board by a mod. I think that aspect of the argument is pretty much settled now: can we discuss this as a realisation of Starslayer's concept art, and nothing more?
For my part I agree with Starslayer that it'd benefit from having the guns flush with the weapon pods.
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Look, they've claimed they're not submitting this as an FSU model, and it's been moved out of the FSU board by a mod. I think that aspect of the argument is pretty much settled now: can we discuss this as a realisation of Starslayer's concept art, and nothing more?
No they didn't, and no it's not. You can't argue for something to be say that this is better than the original's concept and then not compare this to the original.
Off-topic: By the way, Hades has been known to impress me with his more "complete" WIPs. I hope this will be the case as well.
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So let's call a spade a spade then...
If someone dislikes this model as an HTL Herc 2 they...
A: Agree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus this the person is obligated to accept this model as a Herc 2.
B: Disagree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus the person is a hippocrite.
That's not what I said, though I'm sure you're being disingenuous on purpose so I won't bother trying to walk you through it.
How about we have this argument after the model's done.
That's what will be happening.
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Of course you'd deny that by saying I'm purposefully being combatative....
You posted the Lilith as to say that if I don't complain (see allow) about the Lilith's changes, then I don't have room to dislike your Herc 2's changes unless I want to be labelled a hippocrite. But I fully expect you to ignore, fight, or otherwise try to debunk all related opinions unless they come from one of your regular peeps that you actually listen to... (VA, Oddgrim, Starslayer, Zacam, etc.)
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Of course you'd deny that by saying I'm purposefully being combatative....
You posted the Lilith as to say that if I don't complain (see allow) about the Lilith's changes, then I don't have room to dislike your Herc 2's changes unless I want to be labelled a hippocrite. But I fully expect you to ignore, fight, or otherwise try to debunk all related opinions unless they come from one of your regular peeps that you actually listen to... (VA, Oddgrim, Starslayer, Zacam, etc.)
I said nothing about the Lilith, I used it in place of the high-poly Cain model to compare to the retail Cain model. (btw it's hypocrite) What I did was compare what I view as as something that deviates from its original (and listed another, the Aeshma) to see if people were consistent with the complaint that it's "not retail enough".
The reason I don't listen to you is: a) you ARE combatant, you don't think you are but you really, really are. b) You also really don't offer constructive criticism, the most I remember is you pitching that fit about me putting two pilots in the Apollo and then saying "WELL I CAN MOD SO WHATEVER", going absolutely BERSERK about the glow color on the blue Leviathan, despite Oddgrim and myself saying we weren't opposed to changing it, and you told me not to do the Lilith because we already have a model (same thing you did with the Medusa, Leviathan, etc). I listen VasudanAdmiral, Oddgrim, Starslayer, Zacam, etc because, not only are they constructive, they're not aggressive about it, a concept you can't seem to grasp. I don't even talk to Starslayer at all, but yet his input was all constructive AND given in an acceptable way so I took note of it. Funny how that works?
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:) Thank you. Zacam to Hades' rescue in 3, 2...
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This is precisely why I don't publicly show any WIP designs until I am damn close to having the mesh finished any more, it just sparks off this kind of senseless argument.
On a side note I personally hate what I did with Aeshma and hope to redo it some day.
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My two cents:
Blocky = Wing (http://static.wcnews.com/wcpedia/images/WC4-Thunderbolt.jpg) Commander (http://static.wcnews.com/wcpedia/images/WC4-Hellcat.png) 3 (http://static.wcnews.com/wcpedia/images/Excal.png).
I suppose :v: wanted to move away from that as they made FS2.
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Personally I cannot see this model replacing the default Herc 2 (as much as I prefer it to V's one). The Vanilla one was an attempt by volition to out do themselves in the creative department.
From where I see it, V tried to add some variety to the Terran fleet by having more curved designs in order to provide something refreshing. It's why we ended up with some more interesting things like the Hecate, the Artemis, the Perseus, the Myrm, the Herc 2 and many more. V did this on purpose to challenge themselves and to provide more interesting eye-candy. It is meant (in my eyes) to serve as a visual aid to the evolution of the GTA into the GTVA. This isn't the same ship, and this isn't the same government or manufacturer that was in FS1.
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I'm gonna sidestep all the "should-it-or-shouldn't-it" nonsense and random dick-waving (can we please stop that) for the moment and state that, in a perfect world, this is pretty much what I think the Herc 2 should have looked like. The original Herc was one of the most iconic fighters in FS1, the ship that won the Great War, but its successor was an amorphous blob whose only real common features were the extended nose and spike on the bottom. Between that and the lack of a quad primary bank, I never liked flying the thing. (Yes, it's a missile boat, which I appreciate more now, but I used to be fairly primary-only because of how used I was to FS1 missiles sucking.) StarSlayer's concept was a cool take on a Herc progression in the more realistic modern aviation sense, and it's nice to see it getting fully realized as a model. :yes:
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OMG, IT'S GORGEOUS!
I love it!
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I don't know why anyone is even arguing whether it whould end in the MVPs or not. That's FSU's job to decide, not yours (to all the non-FSU members arguing here), and if you disagree with the final choice, you just need 30 sec to mod it out anyway.
So what are you guys exactly trying to do here aside from building unnecessary drama? Let the guys do their job, use it if you like it, don't use it if you don't. Bring constructive criticism if you see ways to improve it, but don't try to forcibly turn Hades and Aesaar away from the fundamental artistic choice they chose to follow, and don't try to do backseat FSUing.
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oh look, matth's demanding everyone stop discussing anything again. how unexpected
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Oh look, Phantom Hoover is posting ad hominems again. How unexpected.
Stop it.
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Awesome model
That's an awesome model you've got there, can't wait to see it finished!
Arguing
It's got two pod things with a couple of huge underpowered engines and a hyperspace magazine, that little fin thing at the bottom, and it doesn't have fins or spikes sticking out the back. So it's definitely a Herc II.
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I'm imagining this thing coming from an alternate timeline where the GTVA didn't form, or something along those lines.
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Wow, blocky Herc 2.... I like blocky things :D
So far I have only one small suggestion
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab206/Karolisuaf/hercIIsuggestion_zps607e80d3.png) (http://s864.photobucket.com/user/Karolisuaf/media/hercIIsuggestion_zps607e80d3.png.html)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kQVml6nXSr0/TXTzwjr9TkI/AAAAAAAAAtE/dQaQs38RN94/P-47%2BThunderbolt%2Bmachine%2Bguns.jpg
Weapons are usually mounted like that because of the ammunition belts which must be placed next to the machine gun. In FS I guess there are a lot of cables or pipes around the laser cannons so I think that this rule can also make sense here ;)
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Awesome model, it will replace the HercII in my FS2 install in a heartbeat :yes:
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Wow, blocky Herc 2.... I like blocky things :D
So far I have only one small suggestion
*snip*
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kQVml6nXSr0/TXTzwjr9TkI/AAAAAAAAAtE/dQaQs38RN94/P-47%2BThunderbolt%2Bmachine%2Bguns.jpg
Weapons are usually mounted like that because of the ammunition belts which must be placed next to the machine gun. In FS I guess there are a lot of cables or pipes around the laser cannons so I think that this rule can also make sense here ;)
I second this suggestion. It could even be used with the wedge shaped fronts offered by StarSlayer (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86643.msg1731536#msg1731536).
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random dick-waving (can we please stop that)
Huh? Aaaaaw :(
*Puts it back in*
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These concepts by StarSlayer are very cool. I plan to do this for my take on both the GTS Hygeia and the GTT Argo for the next MediaVPs.
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Big update. Pods reworked, little winglet prong thing remade, pies hidden from Aesaar. Big changes really.
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I like it. It looks more real now.
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Still looks too angular, especially noticeable on the side of the pod. It has a sharp edge on it, which was not present in the old model. The outrigger engines are also too long. Cockpit is also too angular, especially the window. In other words, not potatoey enough. :)
That said, I'm not saying I don't like the model. It'd make a sweet Herc IIA, or a similar design. However, it resembles Herc I too much and Herc II not enough. The whole deal with Herc II was that it was nothing like Herc I, the heritage takes quite a while to notice.
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It's angular because it is meant to be angular... I don't see much point discussing that Dragon :P
I'd chose this version over the current model any time. Curvy Hercules..... Nope.
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The original was curvy as well. From the design standpoint, yes, this one is better than :v:'s admittedly lousy Herc II. Still, it is too big of a departure, too much of a reimagining and not a straight upgrade. In-universe, I see Herc II more as an attempt to capitalize on the Herc's fame and sell a different fighter as a "new and improved" version with a smooth "high-tech" exterior and a slight speed improvement, hoping that the GTVA will gloss over the blatant inadequacies of the design because of that. The new version actually looks like it was derived from the Herc I.
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I always thought the Herc1 was really cool and the Herc2 really lame. I quite like this replacement. Still identifiable different from the 1, but credible as being based on it.
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I always thought that the FS2 fighter designs are supposed to reflect joint design with vasudan contractors (hence the stranger, curvier shapes). This "more terran" Herc version could be justified within bp lore as a latter production variant given the rift between both parts.
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I like the retail Herc 2 and I like the divide between the blocky FS1 designs and fluid FS2 designs.
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Don't kill me please but I think that while the model is great overall the cockpit should be curved, not for retail semblace's sake but because IMHO it "cheapens" it, giving an idea of less detail.
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As far as I know that model is not supposed to be in FSU so let them make it as they want.
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lovly upgrade, me like!
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Looking good, when I originally drew it up I had more of a F22/35 idea for the cockpit canopy/nose area but you guys can totally run with it in whatever direction you think best.
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I always thought that the FS2 fighter designs are supposed to reflect joint design with vasudan contractors (hence the stranger, curvier shapes). This "more terran" Herc version could be justified within bp lore as a latter production variant given the rift between both parts.
Hence why I said, Herc IIA, or Herc II Block 2, whatever you like. If they were actually seen anywhere in BP (they aren't, IIRC), this would be a perfect replacement.
As far as I know that model is not supposed to be in FSU so let them make it as they want.
If so, then it's actually pretty good. If it wasn't for the fact I don't see this being a frontline fighter by the time BP rolls around, it'd be perfect for it. Maybe BP3 could get some mileage out of it (assuming we get to visit Tev systems and it doesn't get too bizarre to still have a use for a regular fighter :) ).
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Looking good, when I originally drew it up I had more of a F22/35 idea for the cockpit canopy/nose area but you guys can totally run with it in whatever direction you think best.
I tried modeling it that way and tbh I failed miserably. If Hades wants to try remodeling the cockpit and nose, I encourage him to. It doesn't look right atm.
I'm trying to do better with the Perseus.
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I remodeled the main hull.
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And I started on the Perseus.
Missiles are redesigned Trebuchet and Harpoon. This external layout isn't currently possible without code changes, however.
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Oh yes.
Ohhh yes.
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Looking good :yes:
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That looks really good. I'd really love to see the weapons get overhauled for BP (as in, new weapons, not rebalanced FS2 ones), not only ships. While it'd be great to be able to orient the external weapons like that, but I'm afraid we're stuck with what we have for now. You can try leaving the missile pods attached to wings, at the very least, and if the trebs were not "flattened", then I suppose they could be attached to those rails anyway.
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Hell yeah! Perseus is awesome. Love the fuselage line. Can't wait to see the engine pods detailed.
I have a small suggestion however. Wing missile pods mounting. They are pretty wide and you attached them with a single pylon. Using two pylons or attaching it to the wing with entire surface would have made them look more solid to me ;)
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While it'd be great to be able to orient the external weapons like that, but I'm afraid we're stuck with what we have for now.
We're only "stuck with it" until somebody writes new code.
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You mean "rewrite the external weapons code"? IIRC, that was discussed before. This isn't the first time this came up.
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Hades, would you consider reworking this model into a high-poly Hamano's Hercules Mark III (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTF_Hercules_Mark_III)? You have precisely the right fighter-jet aesthetic and Hercules heritage that this model needs!
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I've thought about it and unfortunately I won't be, as there's a couple of remodeled Herc 3s in closed doors so it'd overlap with those unfortunately Plus we (aesaar and myself) started this Herc model to replace the old Herc 2 design in our copies of FreeSpace with something we like, even if it doesn't get into the MVPs.
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...there's a couple of remodeled Herc 3s in closed doors so it'd overlap with those unfortunately
...can I have one?
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I'm not sure behind which doors they'd be. The best upgrade I recall seeing for Hamano's Herc was someone adding a cockpit to it.
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Inferno has one that is based on Hamano's, I think? Somehwere along the way it lost four guns though. I don't know what happened.
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Ah, right, looks like it's still around. Rampage would be the one to ask, then (IIRC). But I don't know of "a couple" of remodeled Herc 3s, just this one.
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I'm looking forward to that Perseus.
Tha Herc mk.2 is also looking sexy (I was never a big fan of the original Herc.2 other than it's good secondary banks)
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That is one sexy Herc II. I never had the sense of power I did with the original Herc. I still won't but at least it'll look better.
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Oh aren't these too curvy, not curvy enough discussions grand?
Personally, I like this version of the Herc II. has a bit more of the Human ISO standard spaceship feel, though I can see some call to keep a bit of the curvy FS2 feel to it (I do appreciate the idea of keeping older designs having a more angular design language while newer stuff has more smooth transitions to reflect changing technology and aesthetic tastes, not to mention some Vasudan influence in the GTVA). Only change I would make as far as that goes, though would be to have the lower section of the front of the weapons pods smoothly transition into the shape of the bottom and at the same time soften the edge where the top meets the upper front of the missile bay. The edge where the upper and lower sections meet would still look better staying sharp to maintain the definition of the line that carries around from the sides.
Are we ever going to see these textured?
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I really like the new block y look for the Herc and the Perseus it gives it a more muscular and military look rather than flying a space egg or an eggplant I would not mind re-playing the fs2 campaign with this new ships :v can you do the same with the Erinyes ? that will be super cool :)
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That's cool! Keep up with your good work, Aesaar! :)
And what of the GTF Aurora seen in Blue Planet? And what about the GTF Myrmidon?
And what about the FS1-era fighters?
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what about the price of tea in china
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(http://deviance.duckish.net/pictures/b5comestheinquisitor_6002.jpg)
What about your family?
What about your God?
What about truth?
What about blood?
What about right?
What about wrong?
What about your future?
What about faith?
What about sin?
What about Hell?
What about death?
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(http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/how-about-no-bear.jpg)
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I really like the new block y look for the Herc and the Perseus it gives it a more muscular and military look rather than flying a space egg or an eggplant I would not mind re-playing the fs2 campaign with this new ships :v can you do the same with the Erinyes ? that will be super cool :)
Erinyes, Ares, and Myrmidon are all on the list for when we eventually get around to them. The Myrmidon will be a fairly tame one out of all of them because both Aesaar and I mostly like it as-is.
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It'd be good if the Myrmidon was not too reimagined, so that it could be used by Mediavps. The current Myrm is barely an upgrade from the retail one.
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That was I'm saying. Dragon is right. The Myrmidon is just a minor upgrade from the retail.
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It can be used by the MVPs anyway. Or if the FSU guys decide it's not ugly enough(aka close to retail) you can just swap it in yourself.