[karajorma]

So you want the plot we saw but with more plot. What ****ing plot! My entire point was that people keep saying that the ending was fine but they needed more plot to get there and yet keep complaining at the writers while ignoring the fact that they haven't got a ****ing clue how to do it either.

Bear in mind that I originally entered this conversation to dispute that you could simply add another 25 episodes without disrupting the ending. If you honestly can't see why that's not possible, I don't think there is much point in continuing this conversation.

[mjn.mixael]

I think what people are longing for is subplot that develops the character arcs so that their choices in the final episode make sense. Dany is an obvious one. Throw in a few events where she starts making increasingly questionable decisions instead of just flipping the light switch.

The first two episodes could have covered more prep for the battle outside of "everyone's building #stuff". Flesh out the plans so we can see how they succeed or fail in the actual battle. This is good opportunity for characters to oppose or agree with one another and to plant seeds about the ways their relationships will break down in later episodes. Instead these episodes were spent on the characters catching up with people they cared about. Yeah.. ok we get it. They haven't seen each other since season 2. Now move on!

You ask "what plot" and that's precisely the point. Season 8 as it exists merely moves from major plot event to the next with little rising or falling action.. which is where GOT used to really thrive.

[Colonol Dekker]

Just shows the writers weakness regarding character breadth over glorious cgi set-pieces.

Also not enough boobs.

[karajorma]

I think what people are longing for is subplot that develops the character arcs so that their choices in the final episode make sense. Dany is an obvious one. Throw in a few events where she starts making increasingly questionable decisions instead of just flipping the light switch.

The first two episodes could have covered more prep for the battle outside of "everyone's building #stuff". Flesh out the plans so we can see how they succeed or fail in the actual battle. This is good opportunity for characters to oppose or agree with one another and to plant seeds about the ways their relationships will break down in later episodes. Instead these episodes were spent on the characters catching up with people they cared about. Yeah.. ok we get it. They haven't seen each other since season 2. Now move on!

You ask "what plot" and that's precisely the point. Season 8 as it exists merely moves from major plot event to the next with little rising or falling action.. which is where GOT used to really thrive.

And once again, I'm not saying you're wrong about the problems with the show. But do you think it should take an entire season to do what you suggested? Do you think that it could be stretched over an entire extra season without losing quality (let alone the two and a half seasons I'm arguing can't be done)?

Let me ask you something, give me a summary of seasons 7 - 10 episode by episode which would end up with us in the same place. When you realise that by season 9 you're writing boring filler perhaps you'll understand why I'm saying that an episode or two in season 7 & 8 might have helped but 25 extra ****ing episodes would have been an even bigger disaster than what happened.

I think what people are longing for is subplot that develops the character arcs so that their choices in the final episode make sense. Dany is an obvious one. Throw in a few events where she starts making increasingly questionable decisions instead of just flipping the light switch.

To be fair, they did do that. The decision to kill Sam's father and brother, the execution of Varys, the point where she tells John she'll have to rule by fear instead of love, her argument that Cercei is using human shields and any of them she has to kill are dying for the glorious future she foresees. Now I fully agree they could have been done better and they could have been spread out more, but it's not like they didn't exist. Dany's sudden face-heel turn is actually explained in the episode itself. She hadn't been eating, she's grieving over the death of both of her best friends in a very short period of time, and she was left without her advisors (despite them actually pointing out they shouldn't leave her alone!). Yeah, I agree that it was poorly written but let's not act like it wasn't explained at all.

Had all that stuff been written in the same style as Season One, I doubt anyone would be complaining.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Regardless of all the what-could-have-beens, I feel that the final episode was about the best they could do, given the situation. Thanks to some great performances, I felt it was an OK sendoff for a couple of overall disappointing pair of final seasons.

Spoiler:

They obviously couldn't end the series with Dany still alive, so it was either Jon Snow or Arya that did her in. Since Arya already fragged the Night King, and Jon had an emotionnal connection to Dany anyway, he was the only candidate for that job.

Having Big Dragon & Dany's loyalist forces simply **** off of Westeros after the Starks get pretty much everything they could want is a bit convenient... (although I guess you could do a spinoff were they come back for #revenge)

I will admit I was amused by the new Small Council & King "Not-Giving-A-****" Bran at the end, though I do question whether it's a good idea to maintain your government in a ruined castle in dead city that's probably still smoldering and full of dead bodies - but then I guess it could have been all cleaned up offscreen, we all know it only take one Peon to build a castle after all.


I'm probably in the minority here, but I couldn't give two ****s about Arya possibly getting a spinoff at some point. While I do like her character, A) I think a series focused on her would get old really fast if they lean too much on the Arya-is-awesome fanservice, and B) she's both finished her character arc is already a max-level ninja assassin, I'm not sure were you could take her from there, and given how the last 2 seasons turned out, I'm not convinced TV writers can produce satisfying original content for the GoT-verse.

[karajorma]

One thing I really would like to know is when Martin passed on the details of where the series was meant to go. Cause if it was only after S5 ended, that does explain a lot.

[mjn.mixael]

Meh.. i'm far too lazy to actually come up with summaries of episodes that could have been. Those episodes could have literally anything in them... it doesn't matter as long as it's fun to watch.

I'd suggest to say that it's impossible to write interesting subplots within the larger story that already did unfold would be to have a very closed mind creatively. A lot of the events in the early seasons of GOT are filler.. but it's interesting filler that gives opportunities for character progression or reinforcement. They could have done the same with season 8 but chose not to.

[Galemp]

Let me ask you something, give me a summary of seasons 7 - 10 episode by episode which would end up with us in the same place.

Don't tempt me.

[Black Wolf]

So you want the plot we saw but with more plot. What ****ing plot! My entire point was that people keep saying that the ending was fine but they needed more plot to get there and yet keep complaining at the writers while ignoring the fact that they haven't got a ****ing clue how to do it either.

Bear in mind that I originally entered this conversation to dispute that you could simply add another 25 episodes without disrupting the ending. If you honestly can't see why that's not possible, I don't think there is much point in continuing this conversation.

I agree that we didn’t need 25 extra episodes. But HBO offered to let the show run as long as it needed to – imagine if they moved the battle of Winterfell to be the final episode of season 7, and then you had 10 episodes in season 8 - seven more than they actually had.

This gives you all the room you need for the key events to breathe.

Imagine Varys’ arc if he’d had time to scheme against Dany and been discovered, rather than just being unceremoniously killed an episode after he just flat out tells Tyrion “Let’s do treason”. Imagine Brienne and Jamie’s arc if it had lasted more than 15 minutes of screen time after they hooked up (or better yet if they’d not hooked up at all, the knighting was enough).

First episode could be more or less the same as what we got, celebrating etc., then Dany marches south rather than sailing south (because the iron fleet is still out there). Bran insists on coming with them so that he actually has a role in the story rather than just popping up at the end. The army has to pass close by the lands of both the Reeds and the Freys (or whoever is ruling there). We could have seen Meera again, who would have been an interesting character to have contextualise Bran’s eventual elevation, possibly through conversations with Tyrion and/or Bran himself. Nice chance to explain a bit about warging, three eyed raven etc. Dany could decide to punish whatever obscure branch of the Frey family currently holds the twins to try to get the Starks on side, or just because he as refusing to let them cross. Maybe she uses her dragons in a more justifiable, but still violent assault that presages Kings Landing.

While this is all happening, Yara can come back into the picture, using her fleet to raid Lannister lands, trying to goad Cersei and Euron into sending out the Iron fleet, which they eventually do. Varys finds out the fleet has left, Dany then leaves the army to go and help Yara’s smaller fleet defeat Euron’s much bigger one with her dragons. Yara gets to be the one who kills Euron (far more satisfying than Jamie) but Dany sinks every single one of his ships even after he dies and the rest run up surrender flags - again, she’s turning gradually, probably as a result of losing Rhaegal. While she’s away, Cersei sends a Golden Company Spec Ops team to infiltrate the southern marching army to kidnap people who she can use as bargaining chips, making her an active participant rather than someone who just stands at a window all season. They get Missandei and get away. Also while Dany is away Varys gets up to his treasoning, and we could see more evidence of the Westerosi racism towards the unsullied and the Dothraki. Arya and the Hound could split off at this point, jumping on a boat to get ahead of the army, taking one of the golden company’s faces with them to help them slip into Kings Landing (with the Hound as Arya’s prisoner). Arya’s plan is to kill Cersei before Dany gets to Kings Landing because she sees what’s coming - this would make her giving up at the last minute a bit more believable as she will have failed to prevent Dany from burning everyone anyway.

After that it can play out more or less as before, just a little changed around. Varys’ treason is discovered on the way to KL rather than on Dragonstone. The army is present when Cersei kills Missandei, triggering the attack on the city and bringing the trigger for Dany and Grey Worm’s anger closer to the consequences (plus a few scenes of Cersei and Missandei talking before she’s killed would serve to add context to Cersei’s position at this point in time and make her cold bloodedness more obvious). We still get Cleganebowl, Jamie and Cersei still die together, everything plays out more or less the same, just with some colour and texture, and characters who haven’t developed apparent sudden onset brain damage. And you get a sense of the people and the world they inhabit, and the consequences of the books events which they feel and react to. That’s what Martin’s books were so good at, and what early GoT had over later GoT.

[karajorma]

I agree that we didn’t need 25 extra episodes.

I'm glad someone finally agrees with literally the only point I was trying to make.

As for the rest, yeah I fully agree that it would be better.

[IronBeer]

(good stuff)

I dig it. Even that summary sounds miles better than what wound up happening.

[General Battuta]

Someone somewhere pointed out that Dany’s second dragon should’ve died during the attack on King’s Landing, maybe to concealed scorpions, thus triggering her trogdor mode and large dragon atrocity.

[Colonol Dekker]

Obviously spoilers but yeah..

[Sandwich]

So you want the plot we saw but with more plot. What ****ing plot! My entire point was that people keep saying that the ending was fine but they needed more plot to get there and yet keep complaining at the writers while ignoring the fact that they haven't got a ****ing clue how to do it either.

Bear in mind that I originally entered this conversation to dispute that you could simply add another 25 episodes without disrupting the ending. If you honestly can't see why that's not possible, I don't think there is much point in continuing this conversation.

Charlie from the Emergency Awesome YouTube channel covered this today (jump to 10:33 for his envisioned fan-fiction changes to seasons 6-8, and the extra seasons 9 & 10).

[theperfectdrugsk]

Finally got around to watching the last season...I couldn't help but think they kinda cribbed the ending from the hunger games series.  The person leading the "revolution" turns out to be not so good, the series' hero decides, pretty much unilaterally, to kill her, and everyone else is left kinda... well now wtf do we do?  Series ends.