Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Grizzly on April 17, 2011, 02:44:31 pm
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Basically, This (http://www.steamprices.com/eu/search?Portal+2). It has happened before, it will happen again, but why are games released in Europe always soo much more expensive?
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Because people still buy them.
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Because Europeans are so much wealthier.
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Ah and I just bought Portal 2 and the Potato Sack too. 20 euro 'tax' I guess. Oh well, given how many games i got for 75% off last Christmas sale..
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You can buy it in Poland for about 33 euros :D (not by Steam, of course).
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I paid $3 US for Portal 2 after some wheeling and dealing.
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Doesn't it kind of make sense, since prices are based on the number on the salary and not relative value? It's a bit like someone from China coming to US, and complaining that the stuff is waaay overpriced when you're using Yuan as the reference. Sure, that burger is 5 bucks (equiv 35 yuan) in the US and 15 yuan in China, but your Chinese purchasing power in China isn't drastically different from purchasing power of the dollar in the US. Instant noodles are 50 cents in America, and like 1 yuan in China.
Edit: made it sensical this time.
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Doesn't it kind of make sense, since prices are based on the number on the salary and not relative value? It's a bit like someone from China coming to US, and complaining that the stuff is waaay overpriced when you're using Yuan as the reference. Sure, that burger is 5 bucks (equiv 35 yuan) in the US and 15 yuan in China, but your Chinese purchasing power in China isn't drastically different from purchasing power in the US.
Edit: made it sensical this time.
Except it doesn't. It shouldn't cost valve anymore to digitally distribute a game to Europe than it does to the US.
This is just greed and exploitation. It might no be valve's fault, it might have to do with europe's laws, idk, but if things were fair it would cost the same.
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I think it's reasonable for Valve to do that. If the expected pricing for new releases is set at something, then undercutting everyone else just because you can doesn't make a lot of sense. It wouldn't be fair to the EU game developers who built games in Europe, and have higher operating costs than a game studio in America because of the exchange rate.
That, and free money. You'd be a seriously retarded CEO to turn that away, when the alternative also involves pissing off other game developing companies.
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Ah VAT at it's finest. Ripping people off because the "leaders" want more moneys. If you dig down, I believe that almost everything that is ridiculously over-priced in Euro-land is because of some tax or another. Thank your politicians the next time they let you vote.
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Try to stay away from politics Liberator, this kind of post is exactly what got you banned from Gen. Disc.
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At least it's pertinent and mostly accurate. ;)
Seriously though, it's screwed up that it should be more expensive in digital distribution. It should be the same price after the currency conversion.
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At least it's pertinent and mostly accurate. ;)
Seriously though, it's screwed up that it should be more expensive in digital distribution. It should be the same price after the currency conversion.
Even if you DO take VAT into account (and yes, we as the people do see things back from that, no need to be so negative Liberator ;) ), there's still an huge prize gap. It also does not adequatly explain the difference between mainland Europe and the UK, since the countries are both part of the EU (import tax related) and charge the same VAT percentages.
It also does not explain the vast price differences between US, UK, and Europe in these cases (http://www.steamprices.com/eu/topripoffs). Look especially at Bad Company 2, which was made in Sweden, and Far Cry 2, which is published by the french.
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I would like to remind everyone that the great majority of production costs is not distribution, its development.
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I would like to remind TopGun that the only reason this is still true is because developers are being retarded and not investing enough money in proper procedural generation of content, since almost half of that cost is mundane content creation.
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I would ask anyone to explain inflation to me. Since that appears to be the major cause for the massive price differences: Publishers have not updated their exchange rates since... 2005 or so, still thinking that 1$ is €1.
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Inflation is the loss of purchasing power of a currency over time due to a myriad of factors including, but not limited to, over issuance of currency into the markets, unemployment, and an over dependance on debt based solutions to induce or maintain an essentially unhealthy economic growth(last one standing gets the bill).
Anecdotal Example: In 1955(ish) my dad was able to buy a movie ticket and popcorn for a quarter($0.25), last time I went, that same deal cost $15. By my admittedly shoddy math, that means that in 60 years the dollar has roughly 60 times less purchasing power in 2011 than it did in 1955. This is admittedly a weak example as there are other markets where there is less devaluation, but it's what it is.
Editorial: If things continue apace in Washington, the dollar will not even be worth printing in about 3 years and will cease to be the defacto world currency shortly thereafter. I do not know if it can be stopped.
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Editorial: If things continue apace in Washington, the dollar will not even be worth printing in about 3 years and will cease to be the defacto world currency shortly thereafter. I do not know if it can be stopped.
Cite proof. If you can't, leave your fearmongering out of the discussion. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand.
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Go look at the English download of photoshop
then clear your cookies go back and select the u.k as your nationality watch the price jump even though its the exact same version
and it was much more expensive a few years ago but theve give in a little to complaints.
photoshop cs5 $699 or £657 in the u.k which is $1076 when it should be £462
ps: do you know why many monitors in europe only have a vga connector ?
because there is a 14 euro tax if the have a digital connector
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But 14 euros is not really significant when you are buying a hundred, two or three hundred euro monitor. To be honest, I've never seen a display without at least a DVI connector in a really long time.
What really pisses me off is when a monitor is sold at, say... 300 dollars, gets shipped to Europe and then they convert the price 1:1 to euros and then double it and some more for ****s and giggles.
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What really pisses me off is when a monitor is sold at, say... 300 dollars, gets shipped to Europe and then they convert the price 1:1 to euros and then double it and some more for ****s and giggles.
To be fair, wages aren't currency-adjusted either.
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I would like to remind TopGun that the only reason this is still true is because developers are being retarded and not investing enough money in proper procedural generation of content, since almost half of that cost is mundane content creation.
No matter how much money you throw in that direction development will still take time and cost a bunch. First of all you can't cover everything by procedural generation of content. It depends greatly on the type of content you need, too, but at the end of the day you'll still need to have people model, texture, and animate stuff. And bear in mind this is a fraction of the cost that comes into developing a game - where's all the coding, sfx, music, writing, cgi cutscene work (if needed), game and level design, etc etc etc.
Game development is far too complex to just dismiss it with "meh they could just procedurally generate everything so why don't they". This idea is hardly new and believe me, things that are cost effective do get implemented.
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What really pisses me off is when a monitor is sold at, say... 300 dollars, gets shipped to Europe and then they convert the price 1:1 to euros and then double it and some more for ****s and giggles.
To be fair, wages aren't currency-adjusted either.
What do you mean? 'mericans earn more (much more) than in many places in Europe.
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What do you mean? 'mericans earn more (much more) than in many places in Europe.
Notwithstanding the massive generalization you just made, 1:1 pricing in comparable but not identical currencies isn't all that unfair, as wages are treated similarly.
A person doing my job in the EU or Britain tends to make the same number figure of money, but in their respective currency (rather than CAD, in my case). Thus, while we retain the same income status so long as we remain in our own countries, Britons or Europeans suddenly find themselves a lot richer when they come to North America, while North Americans find themselves a lot poorer in Europe. Pricing and wages are largely the same numerically relative to their economy between USD, CAD, EUR, and Pounds, regardless of currency exchange. That's why it's not really fair for me to think of my wife's British relatives who make X pounds a year as making roughly 1.5-2X what I do at $X CAD (which when exchanged, it is), as their pricing is done accordingly.
EDIT: I should mention though that I think pricing *SHOULD* be set based on cost of distribution to market. As a Canadian, I get regularly gouged based on some mythical exchange rate between USD and CAD that hasn't existed in 10+ years.
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What do you mean? 'mericans earn more (much more) than in many places in Europe.
Notwithstanding the massive generalization you just made, 1:1 pricing in comparable but not identical currencies isn't all that unfair, as wages are treated similarly.
A person doing my job in the EU or Britain tends to make the same number figure of money, but in their respective currency (rather than CAD, in my case). Thus, while we retain the same income status so long as we remain in our own countries, Britons or Europeans suddenly find themselves a lot richer when they come to North America, while North Americans find themselves a lot poorer in Europe. Pricing and wages are largely the same numerically between USD, CAD, EUR, and Pounds, regardless of currency exchange. That's why it's not really fair for me to think of my wife's British relatives who make X pounds a year as making roughly 1.5-2X what I do at $X CAD (which when exchanged, it is), as their pricing is done accordingly.
Let me make it easier for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage
Now, try telling me what you wrote with a straight face.
In the US prices are lower AND people seem to earn more on average compared to Europe.
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Let me make it easier for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage
Now, try telling me what you wrote with a straight face.
In the US prices are lower AND people seem to earn more on average compared to Europe.
Wage data is meaningless without cost of living, inflation rate, and interest rates - standard of living data is helpful too. You're only looking at part of the picture.
Also, "average" data is useless for a country like the United States due to wage stratification. Median wage is more meaningful. Similarly, minimum wages are a pointless exercise in financial comparison. Anytime you compare financial statistics or pricing between nations, there are a dozen factors that need to be taken into effect in order to make a meaningful comparison.
Finally, Wikipedia is not a great source. Your first article is "original research" and not only omits several reference countries, but is again using average data for each nation selected despite wildly different social stratification and differing social environments (e.g. Americans do earn more, but pay through the nose for social/health services as compared to economically-productive European states). You also missed my point - as wages aren't currency-adjusted between the currencies I've mentioned, you can't exactly convert them all to dollars using exchange rate for comparison, now can you? =)
Let me boil it down for you, since my first statement up there was a bit of an oversimplification: $1 to a middle-class American is worth roughly the same as $1 to a Canadian as 1 Euro is to a German as 1 pound is to a Briton, each living and working in their respective country, assuming equal levels of socioeconomic status relative to their respective country.
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All right, it seems you may have a point (http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?datasetcode=SNA_TABLE4). But that still doesn't explain why a monitor that costs 600 dollars is suddenly priced at 800 euros (over 1200 dollars) (http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-2408wfp/4864-3174_7-32886455-41.html).
Not to mention once when browsing for a monitor, and finding a nice one for 300 dollars, seeing it priced at over 700 euros.
Regarding the discussion, Europe is not just the UK and Germany, most countries in southern Europe have much lower wages when compared with northern Europe. And since you can buy goods across europe with minimal fees, most high tech products are priced with northern Europe wages in mind. Hence for these kind of products, €1 in Germany is not equal to €1 in say... Greece or Spain.
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All right, it seems you may have a point (http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?datasetcode=SNA_TABLE4). But that still doesn't explain why a monitor that costs 600 dollars is suddenly priced at over 800 euros (over 1200 dollars) (http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-2408wfp/4864-3174_7-32886455-41.html).
Not to mention once when browsing for a monitor, and finding a nice one for 300 dollars, seeing it priced at over 700 euros.
Hey, you've got me there - but I could just point out that the CAD is also worth more than the USD AND we're right next door, and I still pay markup of anywhere from 0-25% on some goods as compared to the USA. Corporations are gouging bastards. I had to fight with the last dealer I bought a car from and finally threaten that I would just import one from the 'States myself before they'd drop their price.
Regarding the discussion, Europe is not just the UK and Germany, most countries in southern Europe have much lower wages when compared with northern Europe. And since you can buy goods across europe with minimal fees, most high tech products are priced with northern Europe wages in mind. Hence for these kind of products, €1 in Germany is not equal to €1 in say... Greece or Spain.
I do realize that, but that's more a problem with the way the countries in the EU adopted the Euro and integrated economically than pricing. When you throw economic backwaters like Spain and Greece against powerhouses like Germany in the same financial entity, someone is going to get hurt... though arguably it's the Germans right now amidst all the financial voodoo in Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.
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But that still doesn't explain why a monitor that costs 600 dollars is suddenly priced at 800 euros (over 1200 dollars)
or photoshop is $699 to americans but $1076 to brits when its the same version, no shipping costs (its downloadable) no import duty, no additional taxes
To be honest, I've never seen a display without at least a DVI connector in a really long time.
The u.k's largest pc retailer (9 of the 12 lcd's on the first page are vga only)
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/pc-monitors/708_7030_70030_xx_xx/xx-criteria.html
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PC World is nowhere near the "UK's largest" anything, on account of them being very-nearly bankrupt.
- The one near me has almost no stock on the shelves and appears to have only two staff left.
The Dixons group (Dixons, PC World, Currys) are in serious financial trouble at the moment - many of their shareholders are even starting to ask them to close down entirely in the UK.
It's not quite as financially-troubled as HMV, but not far off and unlike HMV has zero industry and customer backing that might bring it back to life.
(The reasons are many, but probably the biggest two are their poor in-store customer service and apparent reliance on selling extended warranties.)
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PC World is nowhere near the "UK's largest" anything, on account of them being very-nearly bankrupt.
That says nothing. ING, the largest dutch Bank, also faced bankrupty at some biont.