Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103365 times)

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Offline zookeeper

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I find it pretty inexcusable for the trilogy to not have been planned out, apparently at all. The whole thing with big-budget movie trilogies or TV shows that cost tens to hundreds of millions to make not being planned but getting made up as as they go is the kind of madness you wouldn't believe if you didn't know. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't cost anything to plan the broad strokes of each plot and character arc beforehand and make sure they check out.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
To be honest I don't think the second one was made by hacks. Yeah they made a bunch of mistakes but it's still a great film overall. But yeah, the first film is better than the prequels and even with JJ Abrams at the helm it's hard to imagine how he could **** up the third instalment that badly.
Yeah The Last Jedi doesn't feel like a cheap cash grab at all, if anything it tries to do too much at once with the material it's given. I don't recall who made the KOTOR2 comparison on the HLP Discord but I think it's apt.

I find it pretty inexcusable for the trilogy to not have been planned out, apparently at all. The whole thing with big-budget movie trilogies or TV shows that cost tens to hundreds of millions to make not being planned but getting made up as as they go is the kind of madness you wouldn't believe if you didn't know. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't cost anything to plan the broad strokes of each plot and character arc beforehand and make sure they check out.

I agree - just knowing this now makes The Force Awakens a worse film in my book (and The Last Jedi a better one).

 

Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I find it pretty inexcusable for the trilogy to not have been planned out, apparently at all. The whole thing with big-budget movie trilogies or TV shows that cost tens to hundreds of millions to make not being planned but getting made up as as they go is the kind of madness you wouldn't believe if you didn't know. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't cost anything to plan the broad strokes of each plot and character arc beforehand and make sure they check out.

I think it's a good sign that Disney hired Rian Johnson to mastermind whatever the next mainline Star Wars films are going to be after Episode 9.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yes, Luke is a hermit, and it is perfectly sensible that he's drinking milk from some native wildlife. But you don't have to show it because it adds the wrong kind of emotions for the scene.

Right, I disagree with that. I felt that showing Luke milk with the same level of casualness as a farmer shows that he's really comitted to stubbornly continuing his old routine even when somebody else is stubbornly yelling at him. It's not entirely Yoda tossing out all of Luke's stuff pretending he's looking for a biscuit or something but it rhymes.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Did Luke really have to spill half of it over his face while drinking?

I know what the scene is trying to show but I get the feeling that like with the whole Leia Poppins thing the details of the way it was done gets in the way of message it was trying to send. Personally I didn't mind the scene but I can see why some people might have found it a little silly.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't care about those people at all. If I like it I like it, if I don't then I don't. I find the triggering around that scene really really dumb. He's basically turned himself into woods' Goku, getting large fishes and drinking wild milk. He doesn't care about how that looks because, spoilers, he's alone in the island. People who go "ewww" at that scene get my 100% disapproval rate, not voting for them ever.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The Leia Poppins scene... yeah, I did find that one jarring. In part because, imo, it doesn't get enough setup: It makes sense that Leia is at this point a very capable force user who is very much capable of... walking the sky, but for that to have worked it should have gotten more setup (as with a few other things in this film, such as all of the entire Finn/Rose scenes).

 

Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The Leia Poppins scene... yeah, I did find that one jarring. In part because, imo, it doesn't get enough setup: It makes sense that Leia is at this point a very capable force user who is very much capable of... walking the sky, but for that to have worked it should have gotten more setup (as with a few other things in this film, such as all of the entire Finn/Rose scenes).

My thinking about this scene is that a lesser display of Leia's force abilities wouldn't have worked in terms of what the scene is supposed to do.

A lot of TLJ is about myths and legends and the realities behind them (Rei's and Luke's arcs in particular are about the myths and legends of the Jedi and the fact that the reality of the Jedi didn't match them), and that scene is pretty much the moment where Leia changes from a competent politician, leader and inspirational figure to a legend; to an embodiment of hope. If she was just buried beneath rubble and dug herself out in a lesser display of power (i.e. one that is largely invisible to the other characters in the scene), this transition wouldn't work as well: By rescuing herself in full sight of Poe and the others, the character acquires the supernatural traits that myths and legends possess much more readily.

I don't disagree, by the way, that the scene could've been shot better, I think it's one of the few shots in the film where the CG really doesn't hold up, but I think it serves its narrative purpose quite well.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Right, but we go from a Leia who doesn't give any inidcation of being able to use the force at all to her returning as Gandalf the White. I can totally see why she would undersell her powers, but it still felt a bit like a jarring jump even in this legendary star wars thing. In a lot of ways I feel like everything that happens with the Rebellion in this movie is a bit understated: The casino plot feels rather rushed and very convuluted for the time it has, Holdo's last stand could be significantly improved with a bit more foreshadowing about the whole jump to hyperspace thing. Even a very, very short explenation of why this normally doesn't work would help: I liked the suggestion in a podcast I heard of this normally not happening due to hyperlanes being weird (as is established), and every commander taking into account that it's not a good idea to leave a ship in a place where people can jump into and out to hyperspace from, but the New Order in their basic hubris completely forgetting about this and just chasing after the fleeing rebels. Even though I really like that The Last Jedi spends a lot of time on regular rebels like Poe, Rose, Finn and Holdo it clearly got less attention then the Jedi plot.

 

Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
You are assuming that Leia knows what she can do.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I have considered that, but to me it doesn't improve the scene.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
This is nonsense, Leia has already used her force powers to sense Luke in RotJ, it only makes sense that in 30 years, she is capable of much more. She's a Skywalker, we're given a huge amount of "setup" to this "revelation" from the get go already, there's nothing here that is bad. I loved the scene, it almost looks as if she's trying to reach her son, and then the Mary Poppins scene goes full steam and I also loved it. I can't understand the mockery and hatred towards this scene at all. It's pitch perfect, the way that she clearly masters a lot of this force stuff, but not sufficiently to the point that she doesn't still need help. She still needs someone to open her door.

I think the scene is great, it has been well indicated prior to this that she can do Force things (and should be able to), and the execution is pitch perfect.

I have a ton of issues against the movie, but all I see is complaints against things that are not problems whatsoever. This is not about Joshua at all (I don't think what I'm about to say applies to you), but it's as if people ran to this movie expecting to nit pick everything they would somehow think they would somehow find company in hating, and thus rank some kind of social points in going against these things. Because holy hell. The alternative explanation is that the movie is really great, but rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and apart from some of the true failings of it, they can't quite put their finger on it, so they're just fishing endlessly where the problem lies.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
This is nonsense, Leia has already used her force powers to sense Luke in RotJ, it only makes sense that in 30 years, she is capable of much more. She's a Skywalker, we're given a huge amount of "setup" to this "revelation" from the get go already, there's nothing here that is bad. I loved the scene, it almost looks as if she's trying to reach her son, and then the Mary Poppins scene goes full steam and I also loved it. I can't understand the mockery and hatred towards this scene at all. It's pitch perfect, the way that she clearly masters a lot of this force stuff, but not sufficiently to the point that she doesn't still need help. She still needs someone to open her door.

That's fair, and to go into spoiler territory for the latest installment of Wolfenstein 2 for a bit:
Spoiler:
Wolfenstein: The New Colossus scene where BJ is beheaded and then subsequently has his head attached to a nazi clonetrooper's body felt extremely jarring to me as well even though it was setup in the game itself rather clearly as being a thing. On a replay I liked it a lot better.

It is perhaps not so much that she can float to space, it's that she survived being spaced in the first place, even if it is just barely. It for me is the shock of seeing someone die and then that being taken away again that is very jarring for me. That's not a problem exclusive to The Last Jedi at all, and I suspect that I'd enjoy it more on a rewatch. Gandalf atleast takes an entire book to come back, which allows both events to breathe more.

Speaking of people not dying, I loved Luke changing "If you strike me down I shall become more powerfull then you can possibly imagine" to "You can not strike me down for I am more powerful then you can possibly imagine". Fits into the "Outdoing the old masters" theme.

Quote
The alternative explanation is that the movie is really great, but rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and apart from some of the true failings of it, they can't quite put their finger on it, so they're just fishing endlessly where the problem lies.

I think that a lot of what rubs people the wrong way is that this film is very aware of people who have specific notions of what Star Wars should be, and that it subverts these notions. I really liked that personally, it ties into the overal deconstructionism as well as being a general theme of the movie (lots of what happens to the Rebels in this film is taking a mad plan with echoes of the plans in ANH or ROTJ and those plans not working out at all), but also it just really running with some of the things that people didn't like with TFA: Rey really is a nobody who just happened upon a lot of force sensitivity. Deal with it.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't disagree, by the way, that the scene could've been shot better, I think it's one of the few shots in the film where the CG really doesn't hold up, but I think it serves its narrative purpose quite well.

Yeah, my issues are purely with the visual aspects. I don't find it hard to believe that Leia has the power to do that, just that the way it was shot looks stupid. If they couldn't have found a way to make it not look stupid they should have shot something else rather than leave it looking stupid.

This is nonsense, Leia has already used her force powers to sense Luke in RotJ, it only makes sense that in 30 years, she is capable of much more. She's a Skywalker, we're given a huge amount of "setup" to this "revelation" from the get go already, there's nothing here that is bad. I loved the scene, it almost looks as if she's trying to reach her son, and then the Mary Poppins scene goes full steam and I also loved it. I can't understand the mockery and hatred towards this scene at all. It's pitch perfect, the way that she clearly masters a lot of this force stuff, but not sufficiently to the point that she doesn't still need help. She still needs someone to open her door.

I think the scene is great, it has been well indicated prior to this that she can do Force things (and should be able to), and the execution is pitch perfect.

It kinda took me out of the film the second I saw it. Which is a pity because I really loved the film. It's possible that on rewatching I'll like it more when it's not so jarring but you are probably the first person I've seen who has good things to say about that scene.




I do wonder how many of the problems in TFA and TLJ are due to the studios demanding a film every two years rather than actually giving the crew time to actually figure out what they want to do in the film and then decide when it will be released. Just cause Marvel can fairly consistently crank out an at least half-way decent film on cue doesn't mean that every Disney studio can or should. From what I hear the Han Solo film is suffering badly from this problem. It's not even good business sense. The majority of the money the original Star Wars films made was from video sales and later screenings, not from the original run. Squat out a turd and they'll make money now, but no one is going to buy it on DVD or watch it on Netflix 10 years from now.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I loved the scene. I liken it, and my reaction to it, very very weirdly, with a famous Zootopia scene wherein we see the sloth slowly opening his mouth after a joke was said, and slowly laughing it up. It's a jarring what the moment until you realise what is happening and then I loved it.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
When the Leia thing happened, I'm pretty sure I chuckled because it just looked so cheesy/corny/funny/etc. I don't mind what the character did in principle, but it was depicted in a way that felt almost like parody, at least on my first and only viewing thusfar.

 

Offline Snarks

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
When the Leia thing happened, I'm pretty sure I chuckled because it just looked so cheesy/corny/funny/etc. I don't mind what the character did in principle, but it was depicted in a way that felt almost like parody, at least on my first and only viewing thusfar.

That's how I feel about a good number of the scenes in general. I didn't find the Leia scene to be particularly silly though, not anymore than Luke drinking alien milk from a teet or any of Admiral Hox's incredible incompetence.

Overall, I did get a chuckle out of most of the humor in the film, but it really felt more like a Pixar film than Star Wars.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I feel like that is a good place for Star Wars to be in, definitely moreso then what the prequels attempted.

Oh and can we spare a few thoughts for how the cinematography in this installment worked? I'm slightly partial to the Skellig rock where the Luke scenes were filmed on as I visited it when I went to ireland a long time ago, but some shots in the throne room battle as well as the salt planet after the battle had raged were particularely good. There's definitely an eye for visuals beyond simply CGI-ing everything.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh yeah, the Rembrandt quality of much of the photography in there has not been lost on me since the beggining, and did indeed sway me to enjoy it throughout. The whole movie is beautifully shot. That last lightsaber battle? It should be forbidden to give so much awesomeness to the eyeballs.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
It's the visuals department where recent movies like Alien:Covenant and TLJ excel. While I find this look is a bit too clinical, the sets and the visuals are generally fantastic. I personally think Barry Lyndon is unsurpassed in the looks department, but it's a taste thing. It combines great sets with more artistic film style, which leads to the still frames of the movie looking like paintings themselves. It's a jarring effect, but was very difficult and time consuming to achieve. Been photographing for almost all my life as hobby, and I'm only now starting to scratch that stuff.  :lol:

Unfortunately, Alien:Covenant and TLJ seem to fail at everywhere else, starting from a story that carries the film, and characters not matching their descriptions, or plain dumb character development decisions.

This is strange because I thought Rogue One was a good flick (particularly the ending and the droid saved the movie) with an actual Star Wars feel for most part (with some too close parallels to Intifada too), and while TFA was kind of bland, Rogue One boosted my hopes that The Last Jedi could be good. I couldn't have been more wrong. As a side note, I've never been particularly interested in the Star Wars franchise since the childhood, the only "extra" over the trilogies I've played or read is KOTOR and KOTOR II, and that one novel from the 80s when I was a kid. No other stuff, like X-Wing or TIE (which I played for a couple of hours) for example. I could have accepted pretty much everything they threw in the movie, granted they did it and grounded it well.

What the TLJ did in deconstruction is that they went too far with it and did it so thoroughly and made me not interested in anything they could possible do in the last installment. Frankly, Star Wars is now over for me. I guess I'm killing the past just like the movie instructed. The past was just the thing that kept me coming to see what would happen to the characters I was interested in. Those characters are no more, and the new characters couldn't be more blank or uninspiring. They had two movies to get any of Ren, Rey, Poe, Finn or Snoke interesting, and they managed none. [Obi-wan] Well done! [/Obi-wan]

Next time the screenwriters get the writer's urge to deconstruct something in plots, make sure there's only one or two things to deconstruct, and elaborate and execute those selected points well, now apparently an extinct skill. Also, remember to have that little thing called plot which carries the movie and consider any derailment from it very carefully. It's amazing that the best action movie of the decade is Dredd 3D, and it happens in a single, albeit large building, and doesn't deconstruct anything. It doesn't need to. It has a simple plot that is just executed to the point of perfection while the characters all make sense in their contexts. The art style is also very unique, including several grotesque injuries happening in bright saturation colored slow-mo drug enhanced scenes.

Also, Hollywood generally has to up their game with sword fighting scenes. The cutting is all over the place, making it unclear who is doing what and what's the impact. Make the god damn camera stay in place for more than 2 seconds!
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.