[The E]

Needless to say, I disagree on almost all points.

Nobody's even asking if the tardigrade is sentient? It's clearly uncomfortable, but nobody cares at all. Sure, greater good, and yeah, Lorca is supposed to be this militarist, but nobody - even Burnham - really even raises these issues? In a Star Trek show? That's not how the Federation works.

Except that Burnham does raise these issues. Over and over again, she says that the Tardigrade can't be something that it isn't, only what it actually is, and that treating it like a killing machine solely because of that first encounter is wrong. She then is shown caring about its discomfort, and while you're right that the question of sentience isn't brought up, to claim that she wasn't acting like a Starfleet officer is flat out wrong.

I'm not going to make you like this show; noone will. But you are making claims that are, at the very least, hyperbolic and really not supported by the episode.

[Luis Dias]

Imma gonna say though, he's 100% right about the Discovery spinning bull****, unless I missed something very important on how its mechanical structure had any bearing on the spores technobabble. I also thought that was really silly and unnecessary.

Regarding the cliché moment, it seemed too much of a "Bats vs Supes" moody thing that wasn't really that well followed up. I agree that it would have been a nice touch for the ship to have remained there, just to keep an eye on them and whatever, you could have even created a good tension in a following episode wherein they would have troubles gettin the ripper focused to jump, all the while a new wave of Klingons were approaching, or whatever (I may be off strategically here, they might have calculated already it was impossible for new Klingons to arrive there in the next days).

I also disagree with BW's take down of this episode. If anything, this is the one I've hated the least, which seems to be increasingly pointing towards a good, better star trekkian moral direction. Things are still pretty bleak though. Captain Evil is still a bastard and Saru is still the only good trekkie on board. But there's a possible arc in this story, and I'm willing to see more of it.

[MP-Ryan]

This shows title really could have been "Star Trek:  Black Ops."

My thought is that its best to approach this as a show set within the Star Trek universe but outside much of the traditional Trek canon.  Approached that way, you can safely ignore the obvious tech discrepancies, minor canonical issues, and focus on the fact that this show is doing what no other ST series has done:  exploring the darker elements of the Federation.  Oh sure, we've had the odd episode featuring Section 31 before, and various glimpses like the Pegasus incident, but its been clear for a very long time that for all their utopian ideals there is a definite rotten Machiavellian sewer in the Federation and this show is absolutely an exploration of it.  On that macro-level, this is a unique experiment in the ST universe and I'm very curious to see where it goes.  Episode 4 makes it even clearer that we are going into an exploration of what makes the Federation the Federation on a definitively-progressing story arc, rather than the much more episodic standalones of TNG, DS9, and even Voyager.

At any rate, I'm quite enjoying it.  Yes, I also marveled at the stupidity of the security officer, but I think it has become abundantly clear that Discovery's crew and operations are unlike any other ship we've seen in the Federation to date and - while it was handled clumsily - that type of person operating on this particular ship is not at all a surprise.  What's more curious is how Saru ended up on Discovery.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Episode 4 makes it even clearer that we are going into an exploration of what makes the Federation the Federation on a definitively-progressing story arc, rather than the much more episodic standalones of TNG, DS9, and even Voyager.

Which is a premise I'd enjoy more if they were actually exploring what makes the Federation what it is and not merely showing us "hey the good guys can be bad too!"

Something that confused the **** out of me about episode 4 - why were Voq and the other T'kuvmites left stranded for 6 whole months? If the other Klingons were worried about them spreading their ideology, ok fine I guess I can accept that excuse. I guess I'll just ignore the premise of T'Kuvma's marytrdom being central to the plot. But that guy Kol just shows up after 6 freaking months and he's like "yo guys how you doing? How's starvation treating ya? Listen, turns out that cloaking tech you have actually provides us with a massive tactical advantage. We can haz?"

It just doesn't make any sense. If the non-jihadi Klingons don't like the Jihadi Klingons then why leave them stranded to possibly recover (which is exactly what happened) instead of merely destroying them? If they do like the Jihadis then why leave them stranded at all, particularly when they have a game-changing tech?

Casually ignoring canon too I might add, but we're well past worrying about that I'd think.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Finally got around to watching this. Is good stuff. Does the Netflix version not have the next episode previews (being in the US, I have to use CBS All Access)? Because it's clear that episode 5 is going to have Burnham arguing that they're pushing "Ripper" too far, exactly as Black Wolf was complaining wasn't happening.

[Colonol Dekker]

They've most definitely nabbed some art style from BSG (handheld camera and shoot through foreground elements) in an effort to modernise compared to previous star trek shooting.   But so have many other shows.



I don't like it more than Voyager because voyager had borg boobs.    But I like captain-takes-no-****.   Do all captains have oriental facets?


I wonder what the big stealth king on ship was that died when the Europa blew it's code 1 2 3 4 kirk alpha.   On that note, why the feds didn't come back in 6 months and blow up voq son of none when they picked up Asian captains telescope is ......."beyond" me.



I'll still watch it though because I'm not over analysing it and enjoying potential boobs in the future.

[karajorma]

So, got around to watching episode 4. It's bad guys. This show is a bad show.

So, so, so bad. I honestly can't understand why people are complaining at The Orville for being like Season 2 TNG when this show is well below Voyage levels at the moment.

"Who saved us?" says the little girl, while she and the crowd looks up in awe surrounded by flaming wreckage falling from the sky. That is a cliched scene and ****ty writing.

I almost did a Picard facepalm at that point. Really? You're running OUT of the bunker with your children to look at the debris of enemy spaceships fall on you? I've rarely seen anything that dumb in Trek but it wasn't the standout piece of hackneyed writing for me.

First, the Tardigrade being the supercomputer couldn't have been spelled out in bigger letters if they had tried. First we get a scene about how they are missing an important piece of the drive when we know that there was only one other thing taken off the other ship. Then we have to have a scene where we talk about the alien's cortex because we need to establish that it has a brain. I spent 20 minutes wondering when the hell Burnham would figure out what the rest of us already had.

But okay, that happening once is one thing, then we have them deciding to strand a klingon on the wreck of the Federation ship. The federation ship that the Federation have apparently gone back to, taken the telescope off of but just left floating there full of useful parts that the klingon ship they failed to notice (But which is visible out of the ****ing window!) can use. But okay, someone screwed up. Was there anyone who didn't expect his first officer to come back for him? So predictable again.

And then we had the reveal of Phillipa's last will and testament. Burnham is already obviously struggling with using the tardigrade, so let's have the Captain drop in a comment about "Taking good care of those in your care" because the audience can't be allowed to think that simply seeing the creature in obvious pain would be enough to move Burnham.

We know what she is being left the telescope, it's fairly obvious from the Captain's message. But okay, some people might not guess that (or remember that detail). So maybe the slow reveal of the contents of the case is warranted. Maybe it isn't bad writing even though I spent that whole time thinking "We know it's the ****ing telescope, just get on with it!"

And then comes the final insult.



I love how the makers of this Science Fiction show have so little faith that their viewers know what a telescope looks like that they have to have it written down in big ****ing letters.

I really hope the show will get better. I'll give it a fair chance to improve, lots of Sci-fi shows are weak right out of the gate so it's not fair to judge it's future potential on what it's like now. But right now, it's ****.

[The E]

So, so, so bad. I honestly can't understand why people are complaining at The Orville for being like Season 2 TNG when this show is well below Voyage levels at the moment.

Because people are treating Orville like the greatest SF show ever despite it being just as hamfisted as TNG was in its worst moments. Because people are apparently willing to overlook Orville's multitude of flaws just because its sets are pastel-coloured, its uniforms brightly colour-coded, and its plots recycled. From my perspective, DSC is on many levels a better show - better set design, better direction, better casting, better writing - the only thing that Orville does better than DSC is tickling nostalgia for Star Trek. DSC is a departure from traditional Trek similar to DS9; except where DS9 altered the Star Trek formula by focussing on exploring relationships instead of new worlds, DSC focuses on the question of how Starfleet can accommodate its dual mandates of being a peaceful exploration service and the Federation's first line of defence. This is a topic that has popped up several times over TNGs and DS9s run, but it was only ever the topic of a few episodes, never a plot for the whole show.

Orville cannot tell this story, it hasn't earned it yet. Star Trek can. And I am happy that they do.

[karajorma]

Because people are treating Orville like the greatest SF show ever despite it being just as hamfisted as TNG was in its worst moments. Because people are apparently willing to overlook Orville's multitude of flaws just because its sets are pastel-coloured, its uniforms brightly colour-coded, and its plots recycled. From my perspective, DSC is on many levels a better show - better set design, better direction, better casting, better writing - the only thing that Orville does better than DSC is tickling nostalgia for Star Trek.

I literally pointed out multiple problems I had with the plot of the show and how they didn't foreshadow what was coming so much as hang a ****ing lampshade over it but the reason I'm not enjoying it must be because it's not Trek enough.

Bull****.

I said earlier that I didn't know why they didn't just make their own OP because this show doesn't fit into the Trek universe, true. But this episode would have failed even in its own original universe for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Trek. It was badly written and predictable from start to finish. The Orville on the other hand, while not great is at least good. If it's at about the level of Season 2 of TNG, that's a pretty good start for a new show. I like the Orville not cause it's Trekish but cause it works as a sci-fi show. It has flaws, pretty big ones, but it's enjoyable.

So if someone is overlooking flaws, it's not me. It's the person who is saying that there is only one thing they dislike about an episode which had problems as big as the ones Black Wolf and I pointed out. Cause if you think that episode 4 was well written, you're definitely not watching the episode I just watched. I'm actually starting to wonder if CBS and Netflix are actually broadcasting the same show or whether this is some massive social experiment to judge the amount of online piracy going on.

[The E]

I literally pointed out multiple problems I had with the plot of the show and how they didn't foreshadow what was coming so much as hang a ****ing lampshade over it but the reason I'm not enjoying it must be because it's not Trek enough.

Bull****.

Isn't that pretty much what you said though? In your second post in this thread, you were saying that you can't see this show fitting into the prime universe on any level, which to me is pretty much the same as saying that this show isn't Trek enough.

I said earlier that I didn't know why they didn't just make their own OP because this show doesn't fit into the Trek universe, true. But this episode would have failed even in its own original universe for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Trek. It was badly written and predictable from start to finish. The Orville on the other hand, while not great is at least good. If it's at about the level of Season 2 of TNG, that's a pretty good start for a new show. I like the Orville not cause it's Trekish but cause it works as a sci-fi show. It has flaws, pretty big ones, but it's enjoyable.

I'm sorry, I thought I was talking about people, not you. Orville gets a pass on most of its issues because it is designed to be a TNG nostalgia trip, not due to its own merits - And it fails at that, as evidenced by its own third episode.

So if someone is overlooking flaws, it's not me. It's the person who is saying that there is only one thing they dislike about an episode which had problems as big as the ones Black Wolf and I pointed out.

I might not have been clear about this, but let me point this out: I don't care about most of the issues you two have raised. I don't get hung up on things like "why are there spinny bits on the ship" or "how did they get the telescope off Shenzhou" or "why didn't Discovery stay around". These are questions that I either don't need to know the answer to (the first two) or expect the show to address later on (the third one). So yeah: there was only one thing I disliked about that episode, which I pointed out. DSC is good enough for me that I don't switch into hypercriticism mode, as you two are doing.

[karajorma]

I got hung up on the fact I could predict the entire episode from beginning to end, not just little details. Did I make a single comment in my first post on this episode where the complaint was that it wasn't Trek enough or are all my complaints ones that would be the same regardless of the universe it was in?


Or are Netflix / CBS changing your version of my posts too?

[The E]

I got hung up on the fact I could predict the entire episode from beginning to end, not just little details. Are Netflix / CBS changing your version of my posts too?

That's fair, so could I - but I didn't get hung up on it, because it was a classical Star Trek situation (with a lot of similarities to TOS' Devil in the Dark), and I wanted to see what would happen. For that matter, I can predict most of Orville's episodes too, I just get surprised by how badly they **** up their episode resolutions (Again. Episode 3. Whyyyyyyyy).

[Buckshee Rounds]

But okay, that happening once is one thing, then we have them deciding to strand a klingon on the wreck of the Federation ship. The federation ship that the Federation have apparently gone back to, taken the telescope off of but just left floating there full of useful parts that the klingon ship they failed to notice (But which is visible out of the ****ing window!) can use. But okay, someone screwed up. Was there anyone who didn't expect his first officer to come back for him? So predictable again.

Which again strikes me as a massive plot hole.

It stretches belief that Voq and Co. could be left stranded for 6 months without being bothered by either the Federation or the Klingons. It doesn't make any sense at all.

[karajorma]

Especially as his first managed to steal a no doubt warp capable ship from somewhere. Are we really supposed to believe it was from the other Klingon ship?

But like I said earlier, my issue is not just that there are plot holes, they are just symptomatic of the bigger problem, the lazy writing that infests this show.

[Luis Dias]

I'm also raising my eyebrow to the charge that Discovery is "predictable", all the while praising Orville for... what? Not being predictable? You have to be kidding me. I pretty much guessed the whole beats and plot twists in every single Orville episode so far, despite its episodic nature (and thus telling way more stories so far than Discovery).

The episode where the XO is the divorced wife that will earn trust through the episode? Come on.
The episode where they kidnapped never-****-again sweet couple in a zoo? Come on.
The episode where deep mysoginy meets tradition in a courtroom? Come on.
The episode where Big Dumb Object is a Rama-like ship heading towards doom if not for Orville's unwanted help? From a ****ing mile away.
The episode where gorgeous Mary Sue isn't totally a con artist? COME ON.

All Orville episodes so far have been incredibly predictable from the first few minutes in. This cannot be your criteria for "goodness", Karajorma.

[karajorma]

I said The Orville had flaws. The fact that it is predictable is a big one. But Discovery has that flaw on top of it being full of plot holes, having no respect whatsoever for the rest of Trek and having characters (apart from Saru) who are hard to give a damn about. You've criticised it for pretty much all of those things, but when someone else says it suddenly it's a great show?

[Luis Dias]

As I said, I was bewildered that you would find Discovery's "predictability" the biggest concern you shared here in your entire criticism, all the while praising The Orville. The latter show is miles worse in this aspect than Discovery, which makes it really weird.

Yes, I agree with you, doesn't feel much like Trek, goes against cannnnon, it seems to be awkwardly written and has too many bad spots overall.

I'm not as negativistic as you are, because I can see potential in what they have written so far to build an arc that is quite trekkish and overall interesting. In The Orville all I can see is the same kind of emotional manipulation that makes me watch the dreadful dragonball super to this day, namely, I ****ing miss the old TNG show, and it still has failed to provide anything new that would at least justify the naughty manipulation they are pulling.

In Discovery, I can at least acknowledge that they are making a huge effort (in many ways) to try to create a new thing entirely.

[karajorma]

I concentrated on the predictability mainly because fans of the show like The E want to wave away any criticism by complaining that it's just cause we miss the old Trek. But if you noticed, my problem with the predictability wasn't that I knew what was going to happen but that it was obvious because they feel the need to lampshade everything and then expect there to be drama while you wait for things to unfold. I pointed out three occasions where that happened in a single episode.

If they were doing the same on The Orville

Spoiler:

you'd have had someone dropping lines about how growing a tree on the ship would be impossible because it would be too big

thereby destroying any surprise. The Orville has problems, lots of them. But on the whole it's still a reasonably good show. What I can't see is why people are complaining about what The Orville is, while ignoring what Discovery is in the hope of what it could be. For all we know The Orville could be planning all kinds of cool new stuff once it's established its bona fides.

I'm not as negativistic as you are, because I can see potential in what they have written so far to build an arc that is quite trekkish and overall interesting.

I'm not denying that. I really do hope they turn this into something good. But I am only going to review the show for what they have actually done, not where I hope the show will go. We could have done the same thing with Voyager four episodes in and it is quite clear that show didn't go where it had the potential to go. 

In Discovery, I can at least acknowledge that they are making a huge effort (in many ways) to try to create a new thing entirely.

And you don't think it's emotionally manipulative to make something entirely new and then slap Star Trek branding all over it so that you get higher audience figures? It's not manipulative to stick in a character who is step sister to Spock or deliberately set a show in an era that will allow them to justify doing prequels to TOS episodes?

[Luis Dias]

I don't know, "people" haven't been complaining about Orville, I know I haven't. I gave it a 6/10, which is basically what I mostly give to Discovery so far as well. But these come from different places. I was expecting nothing from the Orville and it kinda surprised me positively, while I was expecting horrors from Discovery knowing its development hell and all the wrong turns it took in it.

But of course, for some weird reason, the Orville became The One, the show that would Save Us from Corporate Meddling in Our Beloved Star Trek. It's a charming good ol fashioned show that tries to mimic a 30 year old thing, with some slapstick humour on top of it, but that's about it. It's good enough, for what it's worth.

I agree with you those things were manipulative and I can't roll my eyes fast enough at them. I'm just saying, if I am to forgive all these sins on The Orville, I sure as hell am not going to care if they exist on Discovery.

[karajorma]

I'll forgive a lot when it comes to a sci-fi show. But I won't forgive failing to keep me interested. There are so many TV shows out there which people have told me I should watch, if I'm not enjoying a show why should I spend time on it when there are things I would enjoy more? Like I said, I'll give Discovery a chance to interest me for a few weeks more precisely because the list of Sci-fi shows which were good right out of the gate is really, really short but it's pretty close to becoming a show I'll wait until I'm told is good rather than following.


Personally I'd give The Orville a 7/10 while Discovery rates a 5/10 (mainly on the quality of the previous episodes, if they're all like the last one, I'll revise that down). Bear in mind that I watched the first three episodes of Trek before I watched any of The Orville, so it's not even like its influencing my opinion of the show.