[Akalabeth Angel]

Dunno why people think Han Solo will generally suck.   It's the same guy who did Cowboys & Aliens, which is probably why he got hired for the job.

[Droid803]

So I've kept from saying anything because I couldn't really put my finger on why I didn't like the movie. By virtually all objective measures it should have been fine, aside from the usual list of nitpicking things one could throw together for any movie and don't really make or break anything.

The alternative explanation is that the movie is really great, but rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and apart from some of the true failings of it, they can't quite put their finger on it, so they're just fishing endlessly where the problem lies.

Kinda like that. Then I realized...

What the TLJ did in deconstruction is that they went too far with it and did it so thoroughly and made me not interested in anything they could possible do in the last installment. Frankly, Star Wars is now over for me. I guess I'm killing the past just like the movie instructed. The past was just the thing that kept me coming to see what would happen to the characters I was interested in. Those characters are no more, and the new characters couldn't be more blank or uninspiring. They had two movies to get any of Ren, Rey, Poe, Finn or Snoke interesting, and they managed none. [Obi-wan] Well done! [/Obi-wan]

It's this. It did do a good job! Now I just don't care anymore. Some part of me wanted to keep caring, but I just needed to let go.
Let it die.
I'm finally free.
Free from Disney's milking.
Thanks TLJ.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It's this. It did do a good job! Now I just don't care anymore. Some part of me wanted to keep caring, but I just needed to let go.
Let it die.
I'm finally free.
Free from Disney's milking.
Thanks TLJ.

See you in the Han Solo thread

[Luis Dias]

Two things I wanna say here. First, to say that TLJ and Covenant are at equal footing regarding plot and so on is preposterous, I won't even entertain that gibberish of an idea. Second, I'm a bit perplexed at the perplexity that an action movie that doesn't have plots excels in being... an action movie. Wow. I'm amazed. What next, the best comedy of the decade is a movie filled with jokes or something? Come on.

[Klaustrophobia]

Finally saw it yesterday.  I liked it okay.  It was certainly miles better than The Force Awakens.  Not as good as Rogue One.  Although talking with someone about it today, I realized that might be due in large part to The Force Awakens being so bad it just plain reset Star Wars.  There's definitely something much different about the Disney era Star Wars than the first six.  The prequels (which I don't hate nearly as much as everyone else does or at least pretends to) were obviously different to the original trilogy, but still felt very much like Star Wars.  I'm sticking with my assessment from TFA of it feeling much like a whole new entity that just happens to be using the Star Wars IP assets.  Not a sequel, not a reboot, just.... something else.  And in that context, with TFA having pretty well severed the connection to the 'old' Star Wars, TLJ is a decent film.  The whole lack of explanation or continuity surrounding Snoke, The First Order being a thing stronger than the old empire, and the ACTUAL galactic government being a rebel resistance to it isn't that big of a deal here, since the last one did all that **** and now this movie is firmly working within that established, however poorly, framework.  Alright fine, the empire is back as the first order, Sideous is now Snoke, Vader is Kylo, and the rebellion is the resistance.  Now let's move forward.

Yeah there's some wonky stuff I wish they wouldn't have done, but not as bad as in TFA.  They toned back the allusions to the original trilogy, but not as much as they should.  Closer to being respectful nods than TFA which ventured into ripoff territory, but not quite there.  Salt-Hoth was the worst offender.  I don't expect hard sci-fi from Star Wars, but the bombers actually DROPPING bombs made me cringe.  Especially since I've played a SW video game that used bombers in space 'correctly' as missile boats.  Yeah, yeah, I know EU isn't canon.  But come on, that one's obvious.  Luke's force projection thing shocked the hell out of me, and not in a good way.  I thought it was cheap and cheesy.  IMO nothing in the established canon shows this being a thing, or really logically leaps to it, so it feels like convenient plot device out of nowhere.  If it had just been Kylo (and maybe Rey and Leia) that saw him I'd have an easier time accepting it.  But I feel like Luke should have really been there wrecking some ****, not "survived the ****ton of AT-AT (or whatever this version is called) blasters and now gonna kick your a--- PSYCH! NOT REALLY HERE HAHAHAHA!"  One of several poorly executed 'twists' in which the film foreshadows/leads to the point of obviousness something that we're supposed to suspect but not really know, only to go at the 'reveal' HAHAH NOPE TRICKED YOU!  I might not be describing what I mean there very well. 

Bottom line, didn't dislike it, was entertained, not sure it was worth $10 to see it in theater vice waiting for home release.

[karajorma]

Thing is, we'd seen both Kylo and Rey do the same thing with Snoke's help to a lesser degree earlier in the film. So it's not that much of a stretch that a fully trained Jedi master can do it better. It's not that different from being a force ghost really, except that he's making himself look real rather than blue and twinkly.

[Klaustrophobia]

The big difference being in all of those, all involved were force-users.  A force mind-link type thing is pretty well established.  A corporeal projection of yourself like a hologram isn't.

[The E]

Luke's force projection thing shocked the hell out of me, and not in a good way.  I thought it was cheap and cheesy.  IMO nothing in the established canon shows this being a thing, or really logically leaps to it, so it feels like convenient plot device out of nowhere.

Which part of the established canon as of RotJ's release implied that force lightning was a thing, or set up a logical hook for it to exist?

The force has always been pretty arbitrary. Mind control exists, but it doesn't work on some people for ~reasons~; Force lightning comes out of nowhere but that's somehow not as much of an issue as holographic communication is?

[Luis Dias]

I'm also very amused by all of this "well established" nonsense. Established by what? The movies themselves? I have news here, TLJ is a ****ing Star Wars movie, so it gets to establish whatever the **** it wants. Where is it established that really powerful Jedis can project a kind of perfect hologram throughout the galaxy? In The Last Jedi. Thank you, you're ****ing welcome.

Now, jokes aside, the movie itself *does* establish it pre-emptively. When Rey first appears to Kylo Ren, he does question what the hell is going on and goes on to state that Rey couldn't possibly be doing this, that it would cost her her life, etc. So even the consequence of what Luke does in the end is already established like an hour beforehand.

It's like whackamole in here, for ****s sake people you're making this ****ing too easy.

[MP-Ryan]

What Luis said.  So what if we haven't seen particular Force powers used previously?  Films set in the canonical universe get to make this up all the damn time.  It's long-since been established that the Skywalkers in particular have a special affinity for the Force, so its really no surprise if they can demonstrate Force powers not previously displayed.

There's also the little matter of Luke's location.  Was I the only one who caught that there's some particularly special about that temple and platform (and the equivalent below it) for Force users?  I thought the fact that both Rey and Luke were sitting in that particular spot was enough to make it clear that there was some enhancement of their natural abilities conferred by their presence in that place.

Incidentally, that idea of geographical location affecting the Force isn't outside EU canon either; it's used in a couple of the games.

[The E]

If the Dark Side cave can exist in ESB, a light side clifftop lookout in TLJ makes just as much sense.

[Grizzly]

I mean it's Ireland.

Magic is basically guaranteed.

[Mika]

Two things I wanna say here. First, to say that TLJ and Covenant are at equal footing regarding plot and so on is preposterous, I won't even entertain that gibberish of an idea. Second, I'm a bit perplexed at the perplexity that an action movie that doesn't have plots excels in being... an action movie. Wow. I'm amazed. What next, the best comedy of the decade is a movie filled with jokes or something? Come on.

Well, I can sort of see your point.

I mean both movies have non-sensical plots and are populated by downright moronic self-destructive characters showing zero competence to their tasks and top that off with utterly idiotic decisions once panicked. Both movies probably wrecked a significant fraction of interest in the follow ups and managed to render stuff made before them retroactively bad. But yes, Alien:Covenant still does a tiny bit better than TLJ in the audience reviews, so I should indeed apologize for dragging A:C to the TLJ levels. What, did you think this would go the way you thought it would?

Actually finding a decent action movie nowadays from the movies describing themselves as "action movies" is harder than it sounds like. John Wick 2 got good reviews for an action flick while I found it abysmal and not an action movie at all. Good action movies tend to have a tight plot, but writing one is actually surprisingly difficult. It's difficult to keep it simple, watertight and execute that well, leaving sufficient interpretation room for the actors. Dredd somehow manages to portray his mental state with his mouth only, and that's an achievement on Peter Weller's level!

[Grizzly]

Surely Fury Road and The Raid is all the action you need?

[karajorma]

What Luis said.  So what if we haven't seen particular Force powers used previously?  Films set in the canonical universe get to make this up all the damn time.  It's long-since been established that the Skywalkers in particular have a special affinity for the Force, so its really no surprise if they can demonstrate Force powers not previously displayed.

There's a great comment in Plinkett's review of Attack of the Clones where he takes the film to task for having Darth Tyranus shoot force lightning. In AotC force lightning is treated as just being something you put in a skills slot when you've gained enough Dark Side XP. In RotJ however that's not the case. As Plinkett says, the emperor shoots lightning at Luke because he wants to hurt him before he kills him. He could probably have just stopped Luke's heart with the force or crushed him into a pulp. It's actually pretty sad that people want this RPG version of the force where you slowly power up different abilities. Luke even tries to explain that's not what the force is in this film but people keep insisting it is.

[Akalabeth Angel]

What Luis said.  So what if we haven't seen particular Force powers used previously?  Films set in the canonical universe get to make this up all the damn time.  It's long-since been established that the Skywalkers in particular have a special affinity for the Force, so its really no surprise if they can demonstrate Force powers not previously displayed.

There's a great comment in Plinkett's review of Attack of the Clones where he takes the film to task for having Darth Tyranus shoot force lightning. In AotC force lightning is treated as just being something you put in a skills slot when you've gained enough Dark Side XP. In RotJ however that's not the case. As Plinkett says, the emperor shoots lightning at Luke because he wants to hurt him before he kills him. He could probably have just stopped Luke's heart with the force or crushed him into a pulp. It's actually pretty sad that people want this RPG version of the force where you slowly power up different abilities. Luke even tries to explain that's not what the force is in this film but people keep insisting it is.

People's expectations are based on their experiences and given how often people have referenced KOTOR, it shouldn't really be a surprise that the RPG idea is well enforced.  Similarly many people experienced Thrawn and expect that the new movies should have been focused on him.    It's night on impossible to have a discussion on Star Wars when people will bring in information from outside the movie to enforce their points, whether a book or video game, and even you want to exclude some movies because they didn't align with your expectations that the original trilogy set forth for you.

And at the end of the day, the image of a Jedi is more popularly associated with a super hero than with a grail knight and so the using the force is seen as a dude with special powers, not a pseudo-religious or noble vocation.

[karajorma]

People's expectations are based on their experiences and given how often people have referenced KOTOR, it shouldn't really be a surprise that the RPG idea is well enforced.

It's not a surprise the fans think that. But it's good to see that the makers of this film didn't think that way.

[Aesaar]

I mean both movies have non-sensical plots and are populated by downright moronic self-destructive characters showing zero competence to their tasks and top that off with utterly idiotic decisions once panicked. Both movies probably wrecked a significant fraction of interest in the follow ups and managed to render stuff made before them retroactively bad. But yes, Alien:Covenant still does a tiny bit better than TLJ in the audience reviews, so I should indeed apologize for dragging A:C to the TLJ levels. What, did you think this would go the way you thought it would?

The quality of a movie (or any narrative) is not determined by its popularity.  If it was, we'd have to say Starcraft 2 has one of the best stories of any videogame.

[Luis Dias]

I mean both movies have non-sensical plots and are populated by downright moronic self-destructive characters showing zero competence to their tasks and top that off with utterly idiotic decisions once panicked. Both movies probably wrecked a significant fraction of interest in the follow ups and managed to render stuff made before them retroactively bad. But yes, Alien:Covenant still does a tiny bit better than TLJ in the audience reviews, so I should indeed apologize for dragging A:C to the TLJ levels. What, did you think this would go the way you thought it would?

You're into some kind of delusional cinemasins level of analysis here if you think I give a damn about audience scores. The fact that TLJ scores are faring a lot lower than the prequels ever were (ooh yeah) should give everyone's pause regarding "audience scores" everywhere. If there's any evidence that the audiences are generally morons, this is it. I guess George Carlin was right. Think how dumb the "average man" is. Then realise half of the population is dumber than that. If people tell me that TLJ isn't their thing, that's fine. If they tell me it's worse than Covenant or Phantom Menace I'll just say "god bless you", because their brain surely isn't.

[Grizzly]

And at the end of the day, the image of a Jedi is more popularly associated with a super hero than with a grail knight and so the using the force is seen as a dude with special powers, not a pseudo-religious or noble vocation.

The thing is that, as the movie takes care to establish, everything about that association is wrong. It even goes into some really lovely visual metaphors to explain what the force really is in a way that is very different from Yoda in ESB and yet similar in theme (not like, say, midichlorians).