[Woolie Wool]

After reading the "WC Saga doesn't update their site three times a day THEIR MOD DOESN'T EXIST THEY'RE LYING DEATH TO FREESPACE" thread on WC CIC I feel a desire to be more than a bit circumspect about asking things out of you guys, so as to avoid looking like them, but...

Your screenshots show you had a great deal more content than that which came with the Prologue. The question is, why didn't you throw in all of those mods and bundle in FRED so people can make their own missions. The Babylon Project seems to get by with two very old campaigns that keep getting makeovers with each new release because people can FRED their own missions. This is a full TC, not a mere campaign, and it seems like the lack of expandability in the Prologue is a wasted opportunity to create something more enduring than a mere demo. I mean, you can still copy over FRED and make a mission, but your options are limited because you pared the mod set down to the minimum.

OK, there's download size, but how many people really use 56k anymore? And how many 56k users actually downloaded Saga?

Well, I'm happy to be at least playing some sort of likeness of WC3 that will run on my computer without crashing, which is more than I can say for The Kilrathi Saga.

[G0atmaster]

I'm not on the team, but AFAIK, they're still working on the main campaign(s)

[Tolwyn]

Well, I'm happy to be at least playing some sort of likeness of WC3 that will run on my computer without crashing, which is more than I can say for The Kilrathi Saga.

To keep it short: with my small remake of WC3 I've showed that it is possible to FRED your own mission.

We provided ~20 ships with the Prologue release, I believe. That's quite enough to build a few nifty missions. So stop complaining, fire up fred and start working. Or help us building the main campaign.

Trust me, there is some exciting stuff we have not released yet. It will come with the main campaign. There is no ETA at the moment. It will be released when it's done.

Whenever or not the game will come in one piece has not been entirely decided yet.

Episodic gaming, because of its faster turn around, offers the ability to react to consumer feedback (this has been talked about endlessly already) but it also offers flexibility to try new and really innovative ideas. I can't see this as anything but great for gamers, and it ties directly to the "customized for me" ideal. Basically, it's giving all gamers more choice. Gamers can pick and choose titles, options, and gameplay that really appeals to them.

EDIT: http://web122.cologne146.serverspot.de/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

[Drakon]

With all the elapsed time, despite slumps in progress that the team has mentioned before from RL issues, the work completed to date must be immense. I was never a fan of WCP in the same sense as I am to WC3, so when I first saw the progress being made here - the screens, the news, and everything else - it struck a chord greater than if EA had actually announced another WC title for PC. The attention to detail in the Prologue was breathtaking, and if there are whole campaigns like it with the rest of the options and features made available (simple things like ship selection for missions and the ability to reset hotkoys in their own right would make a huge difference) I agree completely with Tolwyn's view of this tier of quality being worth the time and effort. I was disgusted by so many of the things that were thrown against Saga in some of the CIC threads, but there were a few valid points. With the trend I see here when this project comes out it may just be, hands down, the gem of all fan projects. 

While the long project can only mean good things, weekly updates sure would be nice. I have nothing wrong with how things are really and I know it can be a pain to do when there's nothing particularly new and amazing that you want disclosed, but I know that for me, more likely than not a typical player, it's always nice to check up on the project and see something new posted every few days. I admire how the team can keep the lid on many things, but there's a fine line and if too much time passes without posts, news updates, screens, or some kind of enlightenment for the public I think people get quite uneasy and wonder whether or not the project is foundering (and none of us want to even imagine that ).

In short, I don't think I could say anything bad about this project or it's team as many others seemed swift to do. People using 56k? Lol, I've been playing Freelancer mods for the past two or so years in absence of WC and out of the hundreds of people I've met and gamed with I've only known two who've used 56k. I know people financially-unfortunate and others from very remote, low-tech parts of the world compared to me, and many have better connections than my low-grade broadband. Many prominant people in the WC communities seem to be out to pick fights or let personal issues boil over into places and conversations they have no place in, using whatever they can for ammo (however illogical some of it may be). Maybe some of you guys do it too and there's some sort of feud... I don't know and honestly I don't think many of us are interested in the details. What's important is that the team is doing an amazing job, and I think the vast majority of us just want to see your vision realised with as much detail, passion, and familiarity as possible, and then experience it for ourselves. Keep up the good work and never give up m8! We'll be rooting for you and here to pitch in as needed.

[karajorma]

Bear in mind guys that you can make your own missions for WCS. FRED is remarkably easy to use in comparison with most other mission editors.

Sure you're not going to be able to make missions as good as the team's on the first day but you should be able to knock up a fun, playable mission in a couple of days at most.

[Drakon]

Hehehe, pardon my ignorance on the subject, but how does one aquire FRED? Is there a FAQ, manual, or tutorial to help out newbie modders? I probably won't be able to produce anything remotely good, but who knows? If some of us turn out to be good at this maybe it'd have a positive impact for the project.

[Tolwyn]

You can download everything you need here.

[Drakon]

Hey, thanks! ...but the links don't work. 

[Tolwyn]

Hey, thanks! ...but the links don't work. 

I placed files in the wrong folder. Try again.

[Drakon]

Works like a dandy charm now... and it really isn't as hard to use as I thought it would. I'll need to tinker with it a few more hours tonite and read some of the documentation, but I don't see why I shouldn't have a mission or two done within a week at this rate. Just out of curiosity though why is the Concordia-class carrier a giant Confed logo instead of a ship? I have a campaign in mind but if there needs to be a choice between the Lexington and Ranger I'll go small.  The only real trouble so far is that my PC makes more noise than my washing machine when I test the mission... which seems to point at something evil in nature going on inside, naturally. 

Edit: okay... maybe not. The events and brief manager are each confusing enough to limit me to takeoff scuffles.

[IceFire]

After reading the "WC Saga doesn't update their site three times a day THEIR MOD DOESN'T EXIST THEY'RE LYING DEATH TO FREESPACE" thread on WC CIC I feel a desire to be more than a bit circumspect about asking things out of you guys, so as to avoid looking like them, but...

Your screenshots show you had a great deal more content than that which came with the Prologue. The question is, why didn't you throw in all of those mods and bundle in FRED so people can make their own missions. The Babylon Project seems to get by with two very old campaigns that keep getting makeovers with each new release because people can FRED their own missions. This is a full TC, not a mere campaign, and it seems like the lack of expandability in the Prologue is a wasted opportunity to create something more enduring than a mere demo. I mean, you can still copy over FRED and make a mission, but your options are limited because you pared the mod set down to the minimum.

OK, there's download size, but how many people really use 56k anymore? And how many 56k users actually downloaded Saga?

Well, I'm happy to be at least playing some sort of likeness of WC3 that will run on my computer without crashing, which is more than I can say for The Kilrathi Saga.

Just generally speaking regarding FreeSpace modifications...usually when you start putting together things like models for FreeSpace 2 you can get pretty far and have it look fantastic in screen shots but not be quite ready yet for anyone who doesn't have allot of patience and some time to try and root out some bugs.  For instance with the models you have things like turrets, destroyed objects, the various levels of detail (which the engine doesn't do on its own in this case - some game engines do) and so forth.  So you can have a really killer screen shot but performance is not so good just yet and so forth.

Speaking from experience of running a few of my own MODs from time to time.  The Babylon Project, a few years back, was in the same position WC: Saga is now. With a short demo released and lots of people clamouring for more.  Which is great...but it takes a wee bit of time and the screen shots don't always tell the whole story of what still needs to be done for it to actually be enjoyable.  These guys are very talented at what their doing...I think you'll see some great stuff from them sooner or later!

[Tolwyn]

Edit: okay... maybe not. The events and brief manager are each confusing enough to limit me to takeoff scuffles.

I do not know how to make briefings either (I better spend my time on polishing missions anyway), if it makes you feel any better

It took 2 weeks for me to get my first Saga mission done. It turned out pretty well, I might add.

[Drakon]

Reassuring? Just a little bit. All software has a learning-curve I suppose though, so I'm not at all surprised. It's really a lot to take in at once, but I suppose trial and error and a lot of time goes into mastering the needed skills and products. 

This is all very interesting though! If you don't mind answering a couple more questions, would it be your advice to newbie FRED users to read the online documentation? Or would it be easier and more practical to just do something like play a mission like one of Mustang's and then open one in FRED to see how the stuff in the file applies to what occurs in-game?

If anything, what in your opinion makes a good WC3-esque mission? Are there any hints, guidelines, or strategies you've discovered that lead to the player achieving that same feeling as in the Origin-produced missions? Needless to say you guys have a lot of experience and it'd be an honor if some of that could trickle down and give rise to new mission and campaign designers.

Tying this all back to the first post it seems that there a lot of people who want to play new missions and don't understand why so much time goes by without major announcements or releases. If a few of us here who aren't on the team could start trying to churn out such in-demand single missions (and maybe later down the road campaigns?), getting assistance here and there as needed for quality control, maybe it'd make for good PR and people would have new challenges to sink their teeth into while the project continues to progress behind the scenes. Hmm... maybe it won't happen or would be more unrealistic than it is to say, but there's no harm in trying I suppose.

[Tolwyn]

This is all very interesting though! If you don't mind answering a couple more questions, would it be your advice to newbie FRED users to read the online documentation? Or would it be easier and more practical to just do something like play a mission like one of Mustang's and then open one in FRED to see how the stuff in the file applies to what occurs in-game?

I'd read the documentation first. Even if it does not explain aspects regarding autopilot it gives you a nice overview of the mission building process.

If you want to recreate a WC3 mission, the best way would be to open one of my WC3 missions and modify them a bit. You will need a VP viewer to extract mission files though.

If anything, what in your opinion makes a good WC3-esque mission? Are there any hints, guidelines, or strategies you've discovered that lead to the player achieving that same feeling as in the Origin-produced missions?

In my oppinion WC3 missions are rather simple to make. Like I said, you can break down one of my Wc3 missions and make Tamayo missions. You can recycle large parts of my code for that

Certain WC3 features, such as skipper missiles, autopilot and cloaking require complex scripting, but that's it, actually

Tying this all back to the first post it seems that there a lot of people who want to play new missions and don't understand why so much time goes by without major announcements or releases. If a few of us here who aren't on the team could start trying to churn out such in-demand single missions (and maybe later down the road campaigns?), getting assistance here and there as needed for quality control, maybe it'd make for good PR and people would have new challenges to sink their teeth into while the project continues to progress behind the scenes. Hmm... maybe it won't happen or would be more unrealistic than it is to say, but there's no harm in trying I suppose.

Well, it takes a lot of time to produce complex models, such as new warships, fighters, star bases. Same goes for missions, although we have created an autopilot template, which allows us to go straight to mission design process and skip the time consuming process of creating fly by animations each time.

I can only advice you to spend some time with FRED. Trust me, it is fairly easy to learn. In a month you will be able to create very complex missions.

[Mancubus]

@drakon:
here are some usefull hints about FRED:

1: remeber to make your misson "look Wing Commander" and to disable all typically freespace options:
 - go to the mission stats window and turn the "no command message" and "dissallow support ships" otions   on
-create event that will use break warp/never warp sexp - so using alt+J won't take you to hyperspace
-use "no warp effect" in ships arrivel cues, unless thy arrive via jumppoit
-go to player orders section of every friendly wing and unmatch depart order - otherwise the sips given this order will jump out.

2: remember that trying to go to the ship/loadout section will hang the game, so make missions "scramble missions" in mission specs - this will dissallow players to try  it (every mission in the prologue is a "scramble mission")

3: remember to start building your missions with capship fights - it's much easier to try them out with no fighters messing around in the beginning(note - this is about more elaborate missions with more than 2/3 cpsips)

4: DO NOT order capships to attack each other - they will almost certeinly move to e strange positions wich will allow tham to fire only laser turrets - instead you should try to make them follow waypoint paths, wich will put them where You want them

5: don't give friendly ships to much initial orders - instead use clear goals/add goal sexp in the event editor

6: build your mission  from the end to the beginning - you don't want to  fight your way through 3 nav poits to find that, in  nav 4 your destroyer is placed wrong and it can't use it's AMG (again this goes to bigger missions mostly)

7: don't start with too big battles - they are likely to have a "Battle of Endor syndrome" - player will have minimal impact on the ending. it is possible to balance a large battle nicely, but it is difficult.

8: remeber, that the difficulty setting does matter - place a talhasse against fralthi II and check out the outcome on very easy and hard...

9: remember that the mission you create is more difficult than you think - it's because when you test it, you know what happens next (IE in nave 4 there are 5 gothris on the right goin directly agaisnt your cruiser, so you go to intercept them as soon as you arrive at nav 4, but someone who playes the mission for the 1st time don't know this)

10: in oringinal freespace 2 there came a really great guide for fred - including the complete walkthroug of making a mission as well as the very same mission already done - I'm sure it's somewere on HLP try to find it

11: open other people's missions in fred- you can learn mutch from them

note tat I am not an advenced fredder myself, so if anyone says something witch contradict what I just wrote, he's probably right


@Tolwyn (or someone else from the team)
I have two questions
1: is it possible for you to share the Autopilot Template with us - i mean iv'e been trying to understand how the whole thing works from the mustangers missons, and i think what every event do, but I still have no ideaa of how some of them work
2: is it possible (and how it can be done) to extract some of the autopilot demmo missons to fs2 files ?

[mustanger]

2: is it possible (and how it can be done) to extract some of the autopilot demmo missons to fs2 files ?

There is a thing (on this site, I believe) that allows you to extract the .vp's.  You can search it, because I don't remember the exact name (vpview?  There is another one as well, I believe).  Anyway, this way you can extract the missions from the prologue if you want to take a look at how things are done.

I use similiar scripting in the missions I made as well, although the released version does have a camera bug (which will be fixed for the next version).  The only issue with mine is that there is a set-camera-facing-object sexp, which should be set to only face an object, but I have a couple of extra values that make the camera jump initially  

Drakon:

You should read the tutorial, but after that just get in and start making some missions.  I liked a lot of Mancubus's advice, and only want to add a couple of things... 

1.  Have a plan for what you want to do, and do your best to stick to it.  It is a lot easier to make the mission if you have some idea of it's direction, and in my opinion allows you to build it in a normal story format (beginning, middle, climax, ending.  These kind of missions are the most interesting to me!).  If you make the first nav point the most exciting, the rest of the mission isn't as fun.

2. Start out just playing around a little bit, and familiarize yourself with the interface.  Make some wings, position some ships, put in waypoints, ect.  It can be a little overwhelming at first, but it becomes a lot easier once you are better acquainted with the program.

3.  Try and get input and feedback from other people!  This has probably been the biggest help, and don't be afraid to ask questions.  I have found that most people are willing to give good, honest feedback, and it can help you a ton.

4.  Have fun, don't let yourself get too frustrated.  Sometimes, when I am having a problem scripting something, it helps to walk away for a bit, then come back. 

Okay, enough from me.  I'm still a newb for the most part, but these things helped me a bunch!

[jr2]

Try using Turey's Installer, and deselect everything except the Tools pack... unless you want some of the other stuff, too.

[Tolwyn]

@Tolwyn
1: is it possible for you to share the Autopilot Template with us - i mean iv'e been trying to understand how the whole thing works from the mustangers missons, and i think what every event do, but I still have no ideaa of how some of them work

Give me a few days and I'll post a template... not the most recent version, which is kinda secret, but it will work for your needs

[Drakon]

Hmm, since this has sort of turned into a FRED discussion bored, I thought I may as well ask a few more questions.

I was wondering, could I get the model for the Concordia class carrier since the one in FRED just turns into a massive, Confed logo? If not I'll use a ranger for my campaign, but it might look a bit odd for such a small carrier to have so many escorts.

More importantly, is there a place I could go to expand my background options? It'd be nice to have planet variety from system to system and set background lighting that matches the star(s) used for the system. If anyone can help me aquire some of these I'd appreciate it. 

[Turey]

I was wondering, could I get the model for the Concordia class carrier since the one in FRED just turns into a massive, Confed logo?

Have you turned on show models in FRED?